"Co Parenting" (my first start-up post in this section - EVER)

[Think About It....]

We are all in this section because we co-parent with a borderline.

What an interesting phrase, “co parenting”, with a borderline.

Any of us who have already had to parent our children in the midst of a borderline understand that they don’t usually parent in anyway which would be considered normal.

To co-parent with one who does not act normal when with us, cannot be expected to do any better after they have been removed from us(or worse – have the children most of the time).  In most cases we have been lied too,  stolen from,  manipulated,  and even watched our children be manipulated right in front of us.

So,  for any of us to think these things will improve just confirms our issues as non’s (yes, we want to believe things will get better or can be changed,  if we only wish hard enough – RIGHT!).

I have been reading much over the years.  There was the point I hoped my XSO would get the prescribed help,  take the meds,  and improve.  Well now (years later)  I find myself in this section (co parenting) and I have to bring up some serious questions.

They were unacceptable to parent while they were with us,  what makes us feel that would change?

Court orders? (ya right)

The potential of loosing their kids forever? (again ya right, we all know we are dealing with individuals who, if playing cards, would put “all in”on a pair of deuces).

Or does the fact, that they now don’t have us to blame for their actions improve them? (although they still can blame us – just not as often if we don’t contact – except when entirely necessary).

Bottom line:  Why do we expect there to be some significant CHANGE to their behaviors.  thoughts,  or actions?  Hell, an apple tree only produces apples,  for any of use to expect some other fruit is not rational.

I’ve spent almost two and a half years (since I was granted custody)  trying to reason with someone who I couldn’t reason with for the previous twenty years. ME STUPID!  OR WHAT?

Co-parenting!  nice words assuming there are two parents!

We all spend so much energy trying to accomplish the definition of these two words,  but I think we often forget “co” means more than one.  Well guess what?  Many of us don’t have another ADULT parent for our children, thus eliminating  the CO part.

I know I’ve sometimes still fallen into this trap since the divorce (although nowhere near the degree that I had before).  I no longer try to discuss issues, except those which HAVE to be discussed (it’s almost a flip-flop on the XSO’s past conversations – only a need to know basis was her method – now that’s mine.  This way there is no way for her to cause conflict with me or the children.  If she doesn’t know,  then there’s no way to cause a problem.  Sad,  but sometimes this works best with someone who could cause conflict with any information.).

Since we all do have children in common with these individuals we have almost no choice but to interact with them forever (or at least a very long time).

Does this interaction have to equal “CO” parenting?

Would love some other experienced thoughts.

Brent

[spent18]

We are all in this section because we co-parent with a borderline.

What an interesting phrase, “co parenting”, with a borderline.

Any of us who have already had to parent our children in the midst of a borderline understand that they don’t usually parent in anyway which would be considered normal.

To co-parent with one who does not act normal when with us, cannot be expected to do any better after they have been removed from us(or worse – have the children most of the time).  In most cases we have been lied too,  stolen from,  manipulated,  and even watched our children be manipulated right in front of us.

So,  for any of us to think these things will improve just confirms our issues as non’s (yes, we want to believe things will get better or can be changed,  if we only wish hard enough – RIGHT!).

I have been reading much over the years.  There was the point I hoped my XSO would get the prescribed help,  take the meds,  and improve.  Well now (years later)  I find myself in this section (co parenting) and I have to bring up some serious questions.

They were unacceptable to parent while they were with us,  what makes us feel that would change?

Court orders? (ya right)

The potential of loosing their kids forever? (again ya right, we all know we are dealing with individuals who, if playing cards, would put “all in”on a pair of deuces).

Or does the fact, that they now don’t have us to blame for their actions improve them? (although they still can blame us – just not as often if we don’t contact – except when entirely necessary).

Bottom line:  Why do we expect there to be some significant CHANGE to their behaviors.  thoughts,  or actions?  Hell, an apple tree only produces apples,  for any of use to expect some other fruit is not rational.

I’ve spent almost two and a half years (since I was granted custody)  trying to reason with someone who I couldn’t reason with for the previous twenty years. ME STUPID!  OR WHAT?

Co-parenting!  nice words assuming there are two parents!

We all spend so much energy trying to accomplish the definition of these two words,  but I think we often forget “co” means more than one.  Well guess what?  Many of us don’t have another ADULT parent for our children, thus eliminating  the CO part.

I know I’ve sometimes still fallen into this trap since the divorce (although nowhere near the degree that I had before).  I no longer try to discuss issues, except those which HAVE to be discussed (it’s almost a flip-flop on the XSO’s past conversations – only a need to know basis was her method – now that’s mine.  This way there is no way for her to cause conflict with me or the children.  If she doesn’t know,  then there’s no way to cause a problem.  Sad,  but sometimes this works best with someone who could cause conflict with any information.).

Since we all do have children in common with these individuals we have almost no choice but to interact with them forever (or at least a very long time).

Does this interaction have to equal “CO” parenting?

Would love some other experienced thoughts.

Brent

[nowwhat]

As a secondary non:

There is no such thing as co-parenting with a BPD, period.

Many "authorities" believe in co-parenting; the "you two need to work it out" or "you two need to communicate more" all for the sake of the children makes them feel better and bigger then those before them.  Most people can "work it out," right? 

The courts are applying the same rhetoric to the masses even though it doesn't apply when you are dealing with someone who is mentally ill.  We are a minority, way off the bell curve and they are not prepared to deal with us.  If you think about it, how are they to figure it out?  Most judges are elected, there is no job requirement for experience in identifying the mentally ill.

Seems the current fad it to get a custody evaluator/psychologist to was through the he said, she said and try to get down to the truth.  The BPD may be very adept at manipulations and able to hold it together long enough to fake their way through.  The children are getting shafted in this situation, the system has guaranteed another generation of children "lost in the fog".  It is frustrating. 

Even in situations where the custody evaluator get a clue that there is something very wrong, the judge doesn't have to take the recommendations.  Primary custody to a father is rare even in cases where the father had been the primary caretaker.  Forget sole custody, your're better off betting on the lottery.  All we can fight for is reduced time, exposure and hope for the best.  In the rare event that they "win" supervised visits with the momster, the court often puts the burden on "the winner" to find someone to supervise.

The one that I love is when a forever-married-person says "well, isn't it supposed to be determined on what is in the best interest of the child(ren)?"  It's a nice thought, but hardly reality.  There is nothing more desired by a judge than a negotiated agreement between the parties.  If the judge can get them to agree to something than they will go away.  Next case.   

My friend, I was an idealistic person until I got divorce and married a forever optimistic non.  I can't believe what this woman does to her son.  I can't believe the stuff she says to my dh and about my d12.  I have to close a blind eye because the likelyhood that anyone will do something about her is a longshot.  She is "the mother,"  it seems to be her god given right to hurt her son through manipulations, unstable behaviors, paranoid actions, inablility to make a decision, rages, alcholism and skewed perspective...they are bad, just not bad enough.

Pretty sad state of affairs if you ask me.
 

[spent18]

There is no such thing as co-parenting with a BPD, period.

Completely my point – How can anyone co parent with someone incapable of parenting.  Not to mention who also has major difficulties with “co”ing with others (yes just made up the word “coing”).

The courts are applying the same rhetoric to the masses even though it doesn't apply when you are dealing with someone who is mentally ill.  We are a minority, way off the bell curve and they are not prepared to deal with us.

I’m a true statistician (that’s why I write so poorly).  You’re correct the bp’s live on the very edge of the Z scores (plus or minus 3 std. dev’s maybe even 4).  The area that only one in a thousand or even ten thousand live.  As you approach the edges of that bell curve the number drops off very quickly.  The problem with the courts is the same as with much industry in the US – we look at the majority of that curve not the edges (I last worked as a third party for the military improving the jet engines for our newest planes the F22 & F35).  I assure you, as a society, we don’t want to face the tails of that Bell curve,  be it in our courts or our manufacturing. 

There are those defects out there! – sometimes there human, sometimes there metal!

My friend, I was an idealistic person until I got divorce and married a forever optimistic non.  I can't believe what this woman does to her son.  I can't believe the stuff she says to my dh and about my d12.  I have to close a blind eye because the likelyhood that anyone will do something about her is a longshot.  She is "the mother,"  it seems to be her god given right to hurt her son through manipulations, unstable behaviors, paranoid actions, inablility to make a decision, rages, alcholism and skewed perspective...they are bad, just not bad enough.

Pretty sad state of affairs if you ask me.
 

I hope I don't follow that correctly.

Is there anything you can do?

WHO is this saying mean things to the twelve year old?  HIS MOM? (your current wife?)

This is a bit confusing.   I agree with much of your post but wonder about this section.

Brent

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[nowwhat]

Key to understanding the boards:
uBPD is a person who is not formally diagnosed but fits the criteria of BPD
Non is a person who is/was involved with a BPD, but not a BPD
Non-non is a person who is involved with a non (see above)
DH means Dear Husband
SS means stepson
DD or D means Dear Daughter or Daughter


Ss10's momster is saying bad things about my d11 to professionals, ss10 and us.  She is 11 for god's sake (mistyped last night).  SS' momster has accused her of having an inappropriate relationship with ss10 to a doctor in front of me and dh.  Ss' momster has told ss to stay away from her, told him she is "suspicious" of her.  She has literally dragged ss10 away by the hand from my d in the parking lot of the school.  She has told non-h that my d should be seeing a psychiatrist and asked if we have told her specifically that ss10 is off limits.  Any of this based in reality?  No.

There is one thing about targeting me, but targeting an 11 year old?    

She had also told ss10 to "stay away from classmate, I know his mother and she told me he has a chemical imbalance," and, "ss friend used to wipe feces on the walls, I know that for sure because his mother told me so." 

The momster in our lives doesn't think anything of targeting children.  It is pathetic.

It is a long story, tid-bits are here and there on this board.  Like I said, I am a secondary non (wife of a non).  I have been married almost 2 years.  I love my dh, he is the best person I have ever known.  It shocks me that he was married to this woman for over 12 years.

We have custody of his only son and my only daughter, no children together.  He gained custody after a 2 duis in a month, neither were her first, sent her to jail.  The fact that she had been caught trying to evade police, publically drunk and prepared to drive with ss wasn't enough to win sole custody in this state.

[laurena82]

They were unacceptable to parent while they were with us,  what makes us feel that would change?

Speaking for my nonSO, I dont think he thought things would change, but with a high enough functioning UBPDas exW, she fought for fulltime custody as "mother" and got it...when I met nonSO and saw how she was essentially emotionally ruining her (his!) kids, I was appalled...I would NEVER let my kids stay in that environment if my exH was like that! ...but nonSO *knew* what an "ugly" battle he would have to change things, and elected not to...

THen, things got even WORSE for his kids, so he DID elect to try to change things legally, and it was so awful, he finally said, "you win" , and let her essentially have what she wanted ...because he realized the damage was already done to the teenaged child (now age 18) he was trying to "help"...and in the process, the stress of "fighting" UBPDxW for good of children was killing nonSO (stress related heart attack)...

You are right in all your thoughts...unfortunately, the legal system is slow to recognize ...and a "higher functioning" BPD person has ALL SORTS of legal recourse to take to prevent the other parent from doing what's best for the child...

[salt]

My DH didn't stand a chance.  He was unaware of BPD but knew enough after six years of marriage and one child that he could no longer live with upbdx.  Their son was only 15 months old when they separated.   As much as that broke his heart, he knew that staying would mean another child and would make ever leaving her less likely and more difficult.  He had to act.  Based on the age of the child, no judge in the land would have granted him custody.  The BPDX is very high functioning and normal seeming to the casual observer.  Plus, as I mentioned, he wasn't aware of BPD and had no way of knowing how terrible they are as mothers. 

She treated him as the "assistant parent" to her "Queen parent" from day one.  It was no different when they were married, it only grew worse when they divorced.  There is no such thing as co-parenting (or co-anything, for that matter) with a BPD.  My DH has always had two choices:

1) Agree with her, give in to her, and let her call the shots in the hope that she will at least keep him informed and "include" him. 

2) Parallel parent.  Parent SS when he is with us and let her do the same in her home.  Follow the court order and avoid negotiations at all costs. 

SS is now 12.  Our only hope is that things will unravel as he grows to teenhood and he choses to come live with us.

[oneflewover]

We all spend so much energy trying to accomplish the definition of these two words,  but I think we often forget “co” means more than one.  Well guess what?  Many of us don’t have another ADULT parent for our children, thus eliminating  the CO part.

I know I’ve sometimes still fallen into this trap since the divorce (although nowhere near the degree that I had before).  I no longer try to discuss issues, except those which HAVE to be discussed (it’s almost a flip-flop on the XSO’s past conversations – only a need to know basis was her method – now that’s mine.  This way there is no way for her to cause conflict with me or the children.  If she doesn’t know,  then there’s no way to cause a problem.  Sad,  but sometimes this works best with someone who could cause conflict with any information.).

Amen to that.  I have a ex husband who is completely null and void from my child's life.  Yes, for the most part, given his "issues", it is better this way.  But I deal with the blue moon entitlement production of his where he will call and make crazy demands "that he is the father and he pays his child support" speech. 

I have come to terms with the fact that I am in this alone without a tag team partner or a mutually invested interested partner.  It all falls on my shoulders (gladly of course!)  It is fine, but I know if I ever have any hiccups or shortcomings, the wrath of kahn will come down on me from him pointing them all out.  Oh well.  My response will be is at least I was in the game...

oneflewover     

[funefarm4]

Bottom line:  Why do we expect there to be some significant CHANGE to their behaviors.  thoughts,  or actions?  Hell, an apple tree only produces apples,  for any of use to expect some other fruit is not rational.

I’ve spent almost two and a half years (since I was granted custody)  trying to reason with someone who I couldn’t reason with for the previous twenty years. ME STUPID!  OR WHAT?

Co-parenting!  nice words assuming there are two parents!

Welcome to the board!

I never, from the day I left my ex expected a change in him.  I left because I could no longer handle him and I no longer wanted to deal with the crap.  I wanted better for my kids, and for me.

I was pretty blunt about this to the judge and anyone else who would listen to me.  They all felt I was being "fatalistic" about the whole thing, but you know, the best predictor of future behavior, is past behavior.

I hate the fact that I left to make a better life for my kids and myself and we've been strong armed into dealing with a crazy person--to "co-parent" to top it all off.  There never has been 2 parents in this situation--just one parent and an out of control kid in an adult's body. Sure, I confess I have not acted "stellar" in all situations, but I'm trying. I'm putting my kid's needs before my own.

[LostAngel99]

I found this section to be a blessing, as it is the only place that defines co parenting with a BPD "parallel" parenting...and that is certainly us! 

I definitely share in the sympathy of the court's mindset, how the parents are expected to work things out, share in decision making.  In our circumstances, this has been flat out impossible.  Disagrees just to disagree, and when she does agree, she changes her mind shortly afterward for spite.  Her goal seems to be to keep the drama going rather than in the best interests of the child. 

Our uBPDMom thought the court orders only applied to non Dad.  She literally did what she wanted, and she got away with it for a little while.  We landed in a sole 50/50 split for a few months and then non Dad got sole custody.  We still have to face a Settlement Conference at the end of this year (for negotiation -- yeah, that should go well!) and then a possible trial. 

uBPDMom currently has supervised visitation, supervised by non Dad, for a few hours once a week.   We have found that without any control, she is growing bored fast.   Shows up less and less, ends the visitation early.   Her tricks are mostly little "nicks" here and there -- simply isn't much she can pull under this set up. 

I guess it is a plus for us that our girl is low functioning, and the court kept us coming back, so after awhile, her stories, without any proof to back them up, came out. 

I've seen dad's prevail and win sole custody.   They may be a minority, but they are out there. 

I try not to worry about what will happen in a year at the next court proceeding.  Its hard not to, and in reading some of the stories around here, I fear for my little gd possibly being returned to a 50/50 split with uBPDMom again. 

uBPDMom has lost sole custody twice in this last year.  Are the courts so set on a co parenting set up that they would uproot a now stable child a third time?

[spent18]

I've seen dad's prevail and win sole custody.   They may be a minority, but they are out there. 

Yes they are.  I am one of the fortunate ones.  My two daughters (still under 18) only see mom one afternoon and once overnight each week. Oldest Son (21) now out working and going to night school sees Mom as he choses (usually to help her with one mess or another – he comes here to have things like Sunday dinners or cook outs)

I’d like to share about TODAY.  Well I had jury duty.  A couple of weeks ago I asked their mom to come and get my little one on the bus (as I had to leave at 8am and the bus comes at 8:20).  This was a first in two and a half years.

She agreed too.  Well, since then, I found out that my seventeen year old didn’t have to go to school until 9:30 all of last week at this (mastery tests which she has already passed last year)

Now I never allow my x in the house when I’m not home (I can even keep cash lying around now a days – yeha!).  There was a period after primary custody was granted to me, but months before d was finalized when she had no stable housing – that the court ordered that she visit the here (That was a wild period – fortunately she quickly cashed the settlement check after final D day and rented an apartment beyond her means).  I wish I could have suggested the judge allow her into his house unsupervised with his children (bet he would have looked at a bit differently then).

Well back to today.  When she returned them last weekend I explained about the older one having the late day in and asked her how she wanted to me handle it while also mentioning the orthodontist appointment for this afternoon for the older one.  She couldn’t give me a straight answer that day other than to assure me she get the younger one on the bus.

In my state you have to call the night before to see if you actual have to show up for the Jury Duty.  So we left it open until after the call.  Indeed they wanted me to show up.  So I called mom and told her.  Then I asked her what I should tell the older one (as she can go in on the normal bus at 7am and just hang out in the caf).

Mom said she’d get her in also.  Then I told her that she’d have to take her out somewhere to kill that hour as she (x) couldn’t be in the house when I was home.  This came as a shock to her.  She stole so much and so often from any of us of the 20 years,  but yet again couldn’t believe it.

Now this is her scheduled visitation afternoon so I thought I’d have no problem with getting her to bring the older one to orthodontist (heck it’s much closer to her current nest (best thing to call it since she “perches” on a friends couch after her eviction last summer)).  She refused – putting me in a hard position.  Here it is, 6pm the doc’s already closed, and I have an appointment to cancel – so I left a message on their machine explaining why.

This morning I asked her to make sure the little one takes a shower tonight while on her visit (something I have to ask – oh say 20% of the time).  She gave me a discussed look and said she couldn’t.  Now I also had to ask this during last weekends visit (I guess it to much to ask a mother to do twice in a row).  When I confronted this with that WHY?  All of us should already know what comes next.  Various reasons:  “Well that cuts into MY time with them”.  “I thought you just gave her one the other day?”,  “Kim’s water runs out” (the person who is has given her a couch to sleep on since LAST SUMMER – bet that’s starting to get old – no doubt it was “only until she gets back on her feet” = right = never).  “there isn’t time to give her one since Kim’s three children have to take bath/showers” (maybe that why KIM has custody I think her kids even go to their med appointments – wow doesn’t that just sound toooo normal)

Well I got out of court early and will take the older to the ortho appointment and mom will just loose that time with her.  I should refuse to drop little one off and bring her home for shower,  but I’ll just get her up early in the morning.

We all just have to laugh at the complexities of these situations and realize that they will come again and again.  If we only knew then what we’d know now then we would have put those rings through our noses instead of on our fingers.

Ramble a bit long
Brent