S5's surgery, secondary non

[Think About It....]

Hey guys. I'm learning here. I read a lot about all you secondary nons and your angst with your nons. There are traps I don't want to fall into. I don't think I am, but in order to test that theory I guess I need to tell you guys about how I handle more than just DA. For your feedback and my learning process.

I had a meeting a few weeks ago with lawyer2. L2 is my guy that understands the dynamics of DA...he's helps with stradegy but does not draft anything and is not on point in court.

We were talking about DA. He does not know much about PDs but he intuiatively has her pegged. He made a comment that DA will escalate if my gf were to move into the house...I do think DA would freak. (I'm not ready for that. No where near marriage. Not really interested in trying to combine her 13yo with my young ones. And my secondary non isn't interested either. Our relationship is working out great, why change it? I'm surprised though at how many people ask, "when are you guys getting married?" It seems an assumption that things must move there rapidly).

I've been very upfront with my gf about DA. She knows about her problems and how she is likely to repond. GF has been helpful in helping me wade through the stress of all of this. She is in and out of my house. Doesn't stay over much. She is very interactive with my kids when she is there. My kids hug and kiss her. Ask about her when she's not there. Light up when they see her, and I want to keep it that way.

L2 suggested that I take gf with me to S5's surgery. He made the suggestion to agitate DA. He also made the suggestion in part so DA would be less likely to communicate with me at the hospital, thereby less likely to agitate me. I talked to my gf about going she said she would go or stay, my decision.

So here's the deal. I'd like for gf to go, for selfish reasons. She would make me more comfortable but it ain't about me. It's about my son. My mom will be there and she is the one who will be the most comforting to S5. I'm afraid if gf were to go there would be a scene that DA would create. One that I'd be willing to face were it in the best interest of my son. I don't want to make him any more uncomfortable than necessary. My gut is that gf needs to stay home. She and I have discussed it...and she has left me with no feeling that she is bothered by it. Her comment was she would do whatever I needed her to do.

Your thoughts?

[doc101]

Hey guys. I'm learning here. I read a lot about all you secondary nons and your angst with your nons. There are traps I don't want to fall into. I don't think I am, but in order to test that theory I guess I need to tell you guys about how I handle more than just DA. For your feedback and my learning process.

I had a meeting a few weeks ago with lawyer2. L2 is my guy that understands the dynamics of DA...he's helps with stradegy but does not draft anything and is not on point in court.

We were talking about DA. He does not know much about PDs but he intuiatively has her pegged. He made a comment that DA will escalate if my gf were to move into the house...I do think DA would freak. (I'm not ready for that. No where near marriage. Not really interested in trying to combine her 13yo with my young ones. And my secondary non isn't interested either. Our relationship is working out great, why change it? I'm surprised though at how many people ask, "when are you guys getting married?" It seems an assumption that things must move there rapidly).

I've been very upfront with my gf about DA. She knows about her problems and how she is likely to repond. GF has been helpful in helping me wade through the stress of all of this. She is in and out of my house. Doesn't stay over much. She is very interactive with my kids when she is there. My kids hug and kiss her. Ask about her when she's not there. Light up when they see her, and I want to keep it that way.

L2 suggested that I take gf with me to S5's surgery. He made the suggestion to agitate DA. He also made the suggestion in part so DA would be less likely to communicate with me at the hospital, thereby less likely to agitate me. I talked to my gf about going she said she would go or stay, my decision.

So here's the deal. I'd like for gf to go, for selfish reasons. She would make me more comfortable but it ain't about me. It's about my son. My mom will be there and she is the one who will be the most comforting to S5. I'm afraid if gf were to go there would be a scene that DA would create. One that I'd be willing to face were it in the best interest of my son. I don't want to make him any more uncomfortable than necessary. My gut is that gf needs to stay home. She and I have discussed it...and she has left me with no feeling that she is bothered by it. Her comment was she would do whatever I needed her to do.

Your thoughts?

[thenextstep]

What does son want?

Honestly, I think that is the single most important question in this case.  I'm not a secondary non, so they may see it differently.  But personally, I'm appalled that your L2 would use DS's surgery to manipulate your ex.  If son wants gf there, fine.  But I don't really understand L2's reasoning for wanting to agitate ex when S5 should be the only focus on that day.

Just my $0.02

TNS

[thenextstep]

Okay, I'm sorry but this has really triggered me somehow, so I need to say just a little more.

I understand you want her there for selfish reasons, and that L2 wants her there for whatever reason.  But, the only answer I think you need is this

Is it in S5's best interest?

Does he like her?  Will her presence comfort and/or help him?  If yes, she goes.  If no, she doesn't.

Will it likely create a scene and/or more tension or stress for him?  Now or in the future.  Will BPD punish him for gf being there, in any way?  Is it in his best interest?

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[salt]

Hi, secondary non Salt, here. 

Does DA know that your gf exists?  I can't recall. 
Has she ever met or seen gf?

Let us know and then I will reply to your initial question. 

[hestia]

Hey there, Doc. I'm a secondary non, and I am in every way, shape and form my stepdaughters' mom.

Heck yeah I would be at that surgery with bells on. Fluffy would create a scene, of course, but I would be there.

But here's what I would consider -- first of all, being there, doesn't necessarily mean being in the recovery room with your little guy. Could she come hold your hand while he's in surgery, then leave when it's time to go in the room? If this is to comfort you, that's an option I'd be in favor of. If DA wants to make a scene, ignore it. Let her get kicked out. Yes, this is about your son, but Doc, you need to take care of YOU as well, OK?

As for your son, it sounds like from your original post he'll be OK with seeing your gf once he gets home, or maybe when DA's visitation time is over. You might want to stick with that. Your mom is more your boy's nurturing "mom" figure, am I remembering right? And she'll be there?
I think if gf were at the point were she mom, I'd think differently here, and I'd say be darned what DA thinks.

[doc101]

Hi, secondary non Salt, here. 

Does DA know that your gf exists?  I can't recall. 
Has she ever met or seen gf?

Let us know and then I will reply to your initial question. 

DA knows she exists. She has met her a few years ago but not under the current relationships. Since we have been dating the two of them have been nowhere near one another.

Gf is a part of my life. She's a part of my son's life. I've been aware that I have shielded her from being in direct contact with DA. Not sure if that is a good thing or not. And I'm not sure it''s been a totally conscious decision on my part.

L2's motives were not pure, that is for certian, and I was surprised. It just jolted me into thinking.

Would S5 be comforted by gf's presence? In the absence of DA, yes. With her there? I'm afraid of that one.

[karategrrl]

I think if GF was there, it would only push DA to try for more visitaton...you're already dealing with a visit at her house...By flaunting GF (and by flaunting, I mean her just being there) you're going to encourage DA to do more to get the kids more...weather she really wants them or not...Leave well enough alone and be happy GF isn't triggering more craziness from DA...

Also, the surgery is for son...Keeping things as calm and unakward as possible should be the goal...L2 must not have kids...

[happygirl]

This is where I believe that we tend to overthink things too much and I include myself in this equation.  I do the same thing, what is right, what is best for the kids, what will backfire, etc.

This is where we all struggle and we can see from the comments that we all have viewpoints that are rooted in experience and pain.

So, my point here is that this is one of those no win situations that exist because we deal with nutjobs.  Not the most polite way to put it, but that is the truth.

It is no win which means doc just needs to make a decision and go with it.  Ironically, I just went through this tonsillectomy deal myself but since I am married to walt, anything relating to that is different.

Point 1:

To hell with DA, this is doc's life, doc's son, son likes GF, son gets tonsillectomy, doc wants DA there, this is going to happen sooner or later, DA needs to accept that this is the case, take her there.

Point 2:

Decision needs to involve son's comfort.  Surgery always scary, son needs as much calm as can be guaranteed with potential upsetting event.  This is not the right time to interject GF into the mix.  GF doesn't go.

Either one of them works.  Quite frankly, son will be out of it most of the time and may not even notice the upset that is going on.  The other issue is that you will be making a bazillion of these decisions and eventually you arrive at the knowledge that no matter what you do, the BPD will find a way to make everyone miserable, including the kids.  Pretty soon, you get better about making them because you realize that you can't control anything anymore.

It is just a no-win situation, like I said earlier.  Doc needs to make the decision that he believes will be the best for right now.  However, the last thing that I would do, is invite the GF to provoke DA which I know is something that Doc is not interested in, just relaying as a matter of information.

In truth, I have a tendency to lean towards not inviting GF just as a matter of son's comfort for the time being.

HG

[csandra]

Yes, DA will be provoked in a major way when and if your gf moves in and esp if you get married.  I see that as no reason to not plan for a future that is happy, joyous and relatively free...but since you are still in active negotiation I would avoid provacation that could be avoided. 

I hope that the L was kidding when he suggested this.  Trust me, if your mom is there that will be trigger enough and quite frankly I think that she will find a way to get out of being near your mom for so long (with unstructured time).  And if she is anything like mine, she will not miss the opportunity for drama and to appear long suffering to friends, family, staff.  Any reaction on your part is going to be blown out of the water.  I think that she would be more likely to stay and cause trouble with the gf.

 I'm not dating yet :, but I absolutely dread having my uNPDxh find out...even though he moved out 12/05 and is living with someone.  He will take it out on the kids, big time.

 I can see DA  planting lies and suspicions about your gf with S5(think major smear campaign).  It's great that your kids feel comfortable, it's just that I wouldn't give DA ANY info about the gf other than name rank and serial number.  She doesn't need to know what kind of car she drives, where she lives, anything about her kids, her upbringing, anything.  I think that there is a lot of room for gf to be victimized no matter how strong she may seem.  The time for DA to find out is if your wedding happens to fall on DA's weekend(sorry, but I think that it is coming to this somewhere down the line).  And no, there is no big rush to get married.  For heaven's sake, you are still involved in major legal snafus.  Doesn't seem like your gf is pushing and besides, she sounds very nice .  Do your parents like her ?

[Over The Drama]

Hi Doc,
As a secondary non I have to say that personally I would feel great that you had that conversation with me as you did with her.  She is wonderful for putting it in your court and being fine with option 1 or 2.  She sounds understanding and flexible.  She'll need that for the long run if you stay together 

Your gut tells you that this is the wrong time to introduce gf, right?  I'd go with your gut.  But, please find a time when it feels right to you and gf to bring her into the picture.  If it is sooner rather than later she may feel more valued in your life.  I was introduced very soon, watched the fireworks and we all moved on.  SDthen6 still found it in her sweet little heart to love me even though her momster HATED me.  I really, really, really appreciated that my bf didn't 'hide' me from the crazy ex.  It made me feel valued and loved by him. 

Good luck  8)

[sonnyboy]

Hey doc,

Everyone gave great advice.  Go with what feels right.  Bottom line is that DA will find a way to poison the situation, regardless of the girlfriend's presence. 

DA is DA for a reason.  She couldn't be more miserable, and just focus on the reality that you have happiness, health and love in your life.  Protect that with everything in your power.  There's no revenge to be had with a borderline.  You never win. 


SB

[the end]

My gut is that gf needs to stay home. She and I have discussed it...and she has left me with no feeling that she is bothered by it.

go with your gut.

You are in a 'dating' phase of gf...may not become perm. I tend to see it as antagonistic now. May not be a good tactic. If we are talking court and such, different dynamic, different support, different 'tactic'

FWIW.

[salt]

Thank you for clarifying your situation.  

I agree with HG, darned if you do, darned if you don't.  

I think you need a strategy for gradually introducing your GF into the world that you share with DA.  

My DH had no such strategy, instead just trying to pull me in and out of situations based on his own fears and anxieties around upbdx's "reaction" and what that would mean to SS.  That is the wrong path, hindsight is 20/20.

I am compelled to tell you my long, sad story, but instead I will tell you this:

Marriage will not automatically give her status over DA.  She will still be the MUUTHHEERRR.  So, now or later, your GF needs to be treated BY YOU as important and a full participant in the situation.  You owe it to her to involve her, take her feelings into consideration, and recognize the responsibility she is taking on in terms of loving you and your children.

[doc101]

Thanks for all the replies...

I had decided earlier in the week that gf would stay home mainly because of the potential scene by DA if gf is there. Ultimately its about trying to ensure the most calm envirnment for my son. His biggest comforter is my mom, who will be there, and will piss off DA plenty. If gf were his biggest comforter she'd be there.

Fact is, she is a comforter to me. This is a minor surgery, but it's major to me because he's my son...I know you all get that.

What I'm trying to resolve in my mind is a more or less guide as to how to respond for the future. For a decade of my life my decisions were based on what would make DA happy or mad. I want no part of that anymore. I just want to lead my life and be as happy as possible with as little influence from her as possible.

Like I had mentioned before I hadn't even considered asking gf to go until L2 suggested it...

Why didn't I? She's a part of m life...you guys know the rest of the story...

The NC/LC principles have been wonderful. I fell of the wagon and talked to her last week...Remember? Caused some confusion and angst for me. I was anticipating that she wanted to talk about S5's surgery, when in reality she was trying to manipulate me. Had I stuck to those simple principles I wouldn't have gotten sucked in. She's called the last three nights and asked to speak to me. My parents have reponded that she should email me...Which is the origion of the email I posted from her earlier...

It's kinda like training yourself not to swerve when an animal runs out in front of your car...It goes against your natural instincts, but if you practice it in your mind when the situation arises you repond in a safer manner.

Tomorrow is my son's surgery and I dread it...

I dread it for my son's fear and then pain he will be in during his recovery.

I dread it because I'm going to be stuck in the same room with DA, yuck.

[funefarm4]

I wish the best for your son tomorrow.

Let us know how he is.

[salt]

I will share my story with you so that you can learn from it, I hope.

My DH and I became engaged after two years of dating.  I had met uBPDx a number of times.  We were engaged for six months.  

My interaction with the ex was basically brief and cordial.  She claimed to be supportive and accomodating,  Yea right.  

During our first summer vacation post marriage as a family, SS and I (he was age six at this time) had a great time together.  

One week later, he was scheduled for cosmetic surgery to correct disformed ears (at birth).  

I could see that my DH was stressed over having his child "put under" and operated on (again...the first attempt was not successful).  

I offered to be there for both DH and my SS.  DH (with fear) agreed that it would help him if I was there.

We went together without forewarning upbdx.  She always found a way, in the past, before our marriage, to "talk" DH out of having me at important occassions.  He always relented to her pressure for the sake of SS.  I was beyond angry by that once our relationship had reached the "serious, committed" stage.  He would agree, and then retract based on her reactions.  But I digress.

I went with DH to the surgery.  I was very prepared to be in the waiting room only, I brought a good book.  SS was there with his mom, and he was happy to see me. She was not.  She was virtually silent, and SEETHING that I was there.  Once she and Dh went behind the "curtain" to prep SS for surgery, she was once again " nice" to him as I was sitting alone in the waiting area.  

When SS went into surgery, they emerged from the pre-op area and DH told me that she had asked to speak to him "alone" and asked me to give him five minutes with her.  I said fine.

20 minutes later, I had to pee (I was pregnant with our DS) and I could hear them argue 50 yards away, as could everyone else in the waiting area.  

I approached them and told them that everyone could hear them, and that I had to use the restroom (I had been "watching" DH's phone and daily planner).  UBPDX told me that she was trying to have a personal conversation about her son, and that my need for involvement was my issue.

I told her that I was the wife, and that "private" conversations were over.  I would either be involved directly, or I would hear it from DH, in either case I would know about the conversation.  I told her that she would simply have to get over it.  

DH played monkey in the middle that day, trying to placate both of us.  

You MUST be prepared to stand firmly by the side of your GF no matter what.  I told you this story for a reason.  The reason is to demonstrate how very, very hard it is on a non to hold the boundaries, no matter what, even if it involves the child(ren).  

[salt]

I will add that after our "encounter" upbdx immediately started a target of blame camaign against me.  Both with my DH and my SS.  I was "insecure, immature, and lacking any knowledge of what it means to be a parent." 

She put my SS in the middle, and there he has remained six years later.

[hestia]

I will share my story with you so that you can learn from it, I hope.

My DH and I became engaged after two years of dating.  I had met uBPDx a number of times.  We were engaged for six months.  

My interaction with the ex was basically brief and cordial.  She claimed to be supportive and accomodating,  Yea right.  

During our first summer vacation post marriage as a family, SS and I (he was age six at this time) had a great time together.  

One week later, he was scheduled for cosmetic surgery to correct disformed ears (at birth).  

I could see that my DH was stressed over having his child "put under" and operated on (again...the first attempt was not successful).  

I offered to be there for both DH and my SS.  DH (with fear) agreed that it would help him if I was there.

We went together without forewarning upbdx.  She always found a way, in the past, before our marriage, to "talk" DH out of having me at important occassions.  He always relented to her pressure for the sake of SS.  I was beyond angry by that once our relationship had reached the "serious, committed" stage.  He would agree, and then retract based on her reactions.  But I digress.

I went with DH to the surgery.  I was very prepared to be in the waiting room only, I brought a good book.  SS was there with his mom, and he was happy to see me. She was not.  She was virtually silent, and SEETHING that I was there.  Once she and Dh went behind the "curtain" to prep SS for surgery, she was once again " nice" to him as I was sitting alone in the waiting area.  

When SS went into surgery, they emerged from the pre-op area and DH told me that she had asked to speak to him "alone" and asked me to give him five minutes with her.  I said fine.

20 minutes later, I had to pee (I was pregnant with our DS) and I could hear them argue 50 yards away, as could everyone else in the waiting area.  

I approached them and told them that everyone could hear them, and that I had to use the restroom (I had been "watching" DH's phone and daily planner).  UBPDX told me that she was trying to have a personal conversation about her son, and that my need for involvement was my issue.

I told her that I was the wife, and that "private" conversations were over.  I would either be involved directly, or I would hear it from DH, in either case I would know about the conversation.  I told her that she would simply have to get over it.  

DH played monkey in the middle that day, trying to placate both of us.  

You MUST be prepared to stand firmly by the side of your GF no matter what.  I told you this story for a reason.  The reason is to demonstrate how very, very hard it is on a non to hold the boundaries, no matter what, even if it involves the child(ren).  

Doc,
I want to back what Salt is saying here. I am secondary non, as you know, and the most important thing for me is that my DH has always, always, always stood by ME over his BPDex.
Heck, there have been times when I know I was wrong, and he still stood by me. Please promise us secondary nons you will always do that for your gf. Do not try to placate DA at her expense, or form a partnership with DA at the expense of your partnership with gf.
DA will try. Fluffy still tries with my husband, to create a way to lock me out, talking about how things are between my husband and her, and they are "coparents" together.

[laurena82]

Hi Doc,

Here's my secondary non 2 cents:

Since the GF is still admittedly a GF, AND since she says she is OK with either decision, AND since tonsillectomy is basically an out patient procedure (isnt it these days?) , AND siince you also have your mother there as a support person to you as well as your son, I'd say just go with your mom and keep GF updated by phone.  If complications develop or something else unsettling, by all means have her join you as a support person, to H with how that will affect your exW.

On the other hand, it IS the child of you and your exW, basically only parents are present as immediate family in circumstances like this anyhow, and you already have the addition of grandma...if you and GF were married, I would definitely change and say she should be there as well...this is still in the kinda transitional "grey" area...

I think what's important is INCLUDING your GF in terms of bringing a card/gift from her as well, having GF there to see him at home, etc etc...and, like I said, if some sort of "complication" developed, for you to feel free to call her up and ask her to come sit with you...

also, if I'm wrong on the "one day" out patient aspect, I'm assuming you would be the parent taking him home from hospital, so another option would be for her to join you that second day in coming to "help" bring him home.

You said something along the lines that lawyer 2 thought that having your gf there would help , what,... help keep exW from being all over you there, wanting you to be her "support person"?  I guess you can always keep things open, and if at the time exW seems really annoying in that respect, then, ...call up GF and ask her to join you there...that should put an end to exW cozying up to you...?

But overall, it sounds like the original plan, to go with your mom and just keep GF updated by phone is the best for now,...?

PS:
regarding salt's post:

He would agree, and then retract based on her reactions.

I think that is the crux of the secondary non reaction...its really not WHAT you do...it's WHY you're doing it...

when the non tells us he's going to do *A*...and then changes to *B*...because UBPD/BPDxW wants/demands that...THAT is the issues...it really has *NOTHING * to do with *B* being a worse choice than *A*...it has to do with UBPD/BPD running his life and making his decisions for him...(and or the non BASING his decisions on how he ANTICIPATES BPD will react to his decision, etc ...etc...but I think you grasp this point already  !)

Best wishes for you little one! 
It's scarey , even the most minor stuff...but I'm sure it will all work out fine in the end...

[JoannaK]

Hey, doc, how did things go?  I hope your so is out of surgery now, and all of the stress is behind you.