And so it goes ... (an update)

[Think About It...]

A hearing was finally held in my hometown - we could not come to any agreement before the hearing, the Judge heard both sides - BPDexW was the mostly usual BPDexW - railing on about some things that were irrelevant and unsupported - said "If the court were to give me custody, he does not have to pay child support - he can have all summer - blah blah blah" - she attempted to again bring up some medical issues to try and show she will be better ("Child needed surgeries and father did not do much") (something like that) - My attorney asked me about it - I was direct, specific - said "Yes, there were the following incidens/issues - I dealt with each of them" (the Judge asked me "How is the child now?" "Fine" I said - in the care of her pediatrician who sees her when needed and she gets her booster shots/flu vaccine/etc/etc") ... Her attorney did ask me "Why have you filed for child support?  Has your income decreased?" I said "Philosophically, it is about a child being supported by her parent(s)" (something like that) - income affidavits were taken, she tried to dredge up old/tired issues that had not made any difference to her case - And given that the child has been pretty much with me for now almost all of three years since divorce and she spending some time (not a lot) - it was clear to the court as to who was taking care of the child and that the child was well ... (she did not claim otherwise and did not make any other false charge about the child's well being)

the court ruled - pretty much what we wanted - child stays with me (as per original order) - visitation when she comes to my hometown, child does not travel by herself, share expenses for summer/christmas travel - and oh yes, she was assessed child support ... She has the child now (a month visitation for summer) - and we have an agreement for her to turn over child to me july 4 in her home town - so hope she shows ...

Now, I wonder what she will do next - The court did get a chance to see her, hear her and decide accordingly ... 

[bewildered]

A hearing was finally held in my hometown - we could not come to any agreement before the hearing, the Judge heard both sides - BPDexW was the mostly usual BPDexW - railing on about some things that were irrelevant and unsupported - said "If the court were to give me custody, he does not have to pay child support - he can have all summer - blah blah blah" - she attempted to again bring up some medical issues to try and show she will be better ("Child needed surgeries and father did not do much") (something like that) - My attorney asked me about it - I was direct, specific - said "Yes, there were the following incidens/issues - I dealt with each of them" (the Judge asked me "How is the child now?" "Fine" I said - in the care of her pediatrician who sees her when needed and she gets her booster shots/flu vaccine/etc/etc") ... Her attorney did ask me "Why have you filed for child support?  Has your income decreased?" I said "Philosophically, it is about a child being supported by her parent(s)" (something like that) - income affidavits were taken, she tried to dredge up old/tired issues that had not made any difference to her case - And given that the child has been pretty much with me for now almost all of three years since divorce and she spending some time (not a lot) - it was clear to the court as to who was taking care of the child and that the child was well ... (she did not claim otherwise and did not make any other false charge about the child's well being)

the court ruled - pretty much what we wanted - child stays with me (as per original order) - visitation when she comes to my hometown, child does not travel by herself, share expenses for summer/christmas travel - and oh yes, she was assessed child support ... She has the child now (a month visitation for summer) - and we have an agreement for her to turn over child to me july 4 in her home town - so hope she shows ...

Now, I wonder what she will do next - The court did get a chance to see her, hear her and decide accordingly ... 

[DadsWife]

Hi Bewildered,

I'm so glad you got pretty much what you were seeking in court.  The child support thing is interesting to me.  As a divorced mom myself, I asked for only the minimal amount when my ex (not a BPD) and I initially split. Eventually, as our child began spending more time with him, we agreed to stop child support. I'm simplifying things here, but that's the gist of it.

I remarried (to a non divorced from an uBPDxw).  When their child eventually came to live with us, my non-dh opted not to pursue child support, primarily because he was afraid of causing his ex to change her mind about the child's new living arrangement. But also because, even though he's a "liberated" guy, felt nonetheless sheepish about going after the mother for support.

Still and all.  As the courts are (hopefully) beginning to move forward into gender equity in custody matters, letting non-custodial mothers off the hook for child support is a dangerous precedent to set. Bewildered, if you were the MOTHER, no judge on the planet would even think about asking why you were seeking support. (!)   Now - if the mother is simply not in a position to pay child support, that is a different matter; however, it should work both ways. If the non-custodial dad is genuinely not in a position to pay support, why should he be held to standards more rigid than a non-custodial mom?  In other words, when well-meaning fathers gain custody and waive support even when the ex is able to pay it, is that not contributing to a broader lack of entitlement for fathers in custody and parenting matters overall?

I guess we have a ways to go. It is so often the view that the only reason a dad would seek custody is to avoid paying support, and so altruistic dads forgo support in order to demonstrate their good intention.  At the risk of sounding redundant, I think there should be more equity for both genders. OTOH, I would never DREAM of requiring my husband's uBPDxw for support. Even though we could sure use the money, we would rather keep on struggling than to risk losing the child. 

Hope I didn't hijack your thread - you raised for me a very interesting question.  Congratulations, again!

[doc101]

Thanks for the update.

Are you getting any comunications with your daughter during her visit with X?

I hope all goes well for the summer, glad to hear nothing drastic happened in court.

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GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[bewildered]

Are you getting any comunications with your daughter during her visit with X?

I hope all goes well for the summer, glad to hear nothing drastic happened in court.

Yea, a short phone call (but short because my daughter is not talkative!) ... I have called her atleast once a day, and she did call me when she received boxes I sent (books/stuff) ...  yes, the court was OK - now it's what happens at exchange/future ... Amazing that even with all of the legal backings, I am never sure what she will do ... but so far, so good - and I'll really say that when I do get my daughter back

[doc101]

and I'll really say that when I do get my daughter back

That has got to be a source of anxiety for you. My kids are short on the phone too. I only asked because I figured hearing her voice my ease some tension for you.

[bewildered]

DadsWife talked about child support.

Yes, you are right in that if I were the non custodial parent, the question would not have come up.  I am also traditional in the sense that I would have preferred not to assess any child support - but it IS a philosophical issue.  During the divorce, I gave up almost everything, except the custody issue - and when the case was in Arizona, that court did not assess child support (calculations were such that the numbers were very small/nothing and I said "Fine, let's forget about it") ...

As I always am fond of saying "If she would behave herself, let me take care of our daughter the way I know and have, I am prepared to simply let it go"

I do not expect her to behave herself, ever.  And going back to her case with her first ex, the overhanging child support/arrears did help keep some of her behavior in check - since he could always seek an arrest warrant for arrears (as he did once/twice (?)) and he has the same attitude now - "Let me be and I'll let it go" (But incredibly, she will still time to time threaten to take him to court for disagreeing with her on some aspect of the agreement even though it is written down clearly - this summer she refused to send their two kids back unless HE paid for their return trip and their agreement did not have that at all! - He landed up paying for their trip and dealing with that issue later, perhaps)

We do share some of the costs of travel (summer/christmas) - and they did ask for support for other travel also (during the school year) - It may very well come down to the child support payments being used for travel/visitations etc - No idea.

I told my attorney that when she finds out about child support, all h^&% may break loose and she may refuse to hand my daughter over - that remains a possibility ... but I'll cross that bridge when I have to - but I am already thinking about what I could do, how I may have to approach it and so on - I know I can get police in another jurisdiction to enforce an order, but it will take some time and she can certainly plead ignorance or whatever and create a scene ... (I am being a pessimist now, but have learned that with a BPDexW, anything can happen, at anytime ...)
 
(Oh, one more point.  The largest payment she ever made to her first ex on child support arrears was actually by ME - I took an emergency loan on my credit cards to bail her out of her child support warrant (this was when we were married - those bad-old-days - that I am still struggling to get out of financially) - now that the tables have turned, I can imagine she is furious and cannot imagine why any court will ask this perfect mother to pay anything)

[bewildered]

That has got to be a source of anxiety for you. My kids are short on the phone too. I only asked because I figured hearing her voice my ease some tension for you.

It does help to hear her, even for a minute.  I will relax only when she is safe with me - so the days are moving rather slowly for now ... but moving nevertheless.  I have sent her a few small gifts/amazon.com etc ... and she loves it - has called me back ...

[bewildered]

... to continue on the issue of gender/child support

My attorney in AZ was amazed that the court DID do the right thing then and turn the child over to me.

(Her behavior was so egregious and I had some other history that she could not pollute that the Judge gave me primary physical custody)

I hope courts everywhere do not look at a "man" and say "No, you cannot take care of a child" ... that explicit gender bias MUST disappear.

Yes, men and women are different - but a dedicated parent (male OR female) are equivalent in terms of what the child needs even as the male or female will do many things very differently ...

Statistically, females do better than males in court (and in many cases rightfully so) ... The term "best interests of the child" should not be a slogan - For all the money I did spend, someone/many people DID see that argument I made ... Thank goodness.  My daughter has a chance to grow up as normally as I possibly can provide for her.  The first decision I made that day I was served was that "I must get my daughter back". 

[doc101]

I wanted to chime in on the child support issue...

I didn't ask for it initially. It was a bargaining tool in the divorce procedings.

I didn't want to fool with the hassel of giving her even more of a sence of entitlement. Figured the more I did, the less I had to depend on her, the better.

Trouble is it gives her more funds to fight.

I have gotten my lawyer to tack on a childsupport motion to our next court date. Philosophically I couldn't care less if she payed a dime to help with the kids. But from a practicle stand point she needs to help.

[bewildered]

... she needs to help.

I think this summarizes it perfectly.  There is something rotten about a parent not supporting a child and not just money (but yes money is a key signal to such support).  And while it is mostly "men" who are terrible about such support (statistically), it is important than when a "female" is the non custodial parent, the signal be sent that she is also responsible. 

And doc101, as you added - it does give her less funds to fight with - but then again my BPDexW seems to pull money out of who knows where and how - so she may yet continue with whatever she has (or does not)

[doc101]

I honestly felt like she would avoid court out of fear of th CS issue. DUH, just didn't seem to matter.

I had been given advice from my lawyer early on to hold on to the CS issue to use as a trump card later. My lawyer's mind has since changed on the subject as has mine. I don't really think it's going to matter that much.

Based on her income and mine my lawyer esimates that she should pay about $1000 a month. Not much, considering what it takes monitarily.

The fear that I have by receiving CS...Having to listen to the dribble that she contributed...Because how much she contributed with be grossly overestimated by her.

[bewildered]

My fear is that my BPDexW will  poison the child's mind (as if that is not already happening, I know ...)

"Look, daddy is being mean to me and not allowing you to spend time with me"
"Daddy has been really mean to me and is asking me for money I do not have"

and so on ...

[JoannaK]

Hi bewildered!  It's good to see you here.  How are you and your daughter doing..   goof ball mom aside?  She's 6 already?  Wow... you have been around a long time!

Now..  her mom has not been a major part in her life for a long time now...   was she happy to go with Mom?  Does she feel a little distant from her?  As you are the primary parent, I wouldn't worry much about PAS..  I'm sure she will try, but I would expect that your daughter is very close to you, and, as she doesn't have to spend a lot of time with Mom, any damage she does should be undone by you in your time with her.  I can imagine, however, how slowly these days are passing!

Thanks for the update..  glad things went well in court...  and enjoy the rest of summer with your little girl (after she comes back).

[bewildered]

Oh yes ... my daughter is doing great! (Well, seems OK with her mom, so far from what I can hear anyway) ... Yes, she definitely did want to go visit with mom for "a long time" (and was excited about the visit/anticipation etc) ... It will be interesting to see how she returns to me and what issues come up ... but yes, I am sure I can undo any damage quickly - I am sure she will adjust back quickly to what she had for a long time - and that back to a familiar routine/school etc should help 

[Coolmomof4]

Wow. What a great update.  I'm happy you got what you asked for. 

I can completely understand the child support issue.  DH has custody of SS13.  SS13 has lived with him since the separation when he was a year old.  DH never asked for support because she had never been able to hold a job more than a week or so.  She was even blackballed from the largest county in the state from teaching there ever again. When she took DH to court in 99 when we were getting ready to move out of state we didn't know she was working, even though it was very part time.  When the attys drafted the new order her atty specifically stated she was unable to pay support since she was not working.  A week later we found out aboutt he job, and a month after that she went full time.  Then in May 02, she had a fit because we were coming to her state (on a non visit weekend) to visit family.  She demanded a visit with SS13 but DH said no becuase our weekend was full.  She threatened to take DH back to court over it, and he told her to go ahead because he would file for CS.  She quit her job a week later. She subbed after that on and off for a few years, then this year landed a teaching job at a private school.  We didn't bother to file for support.  We knew she would quit the job anyway if we did, and we really didn't think she would last the year.  But she did.

We are trying to decide whether to file when we go back to court later this summer.  We don't need - and really don't want- the money.  But it is the principle.  Her son is nearly 14 and she has never supported him.  She has supervised visitation so she doesn't even support him during her visits.  She does not have any clothes that fit him, he sin't supposed to be at her apartment, etc.  So basically she has extra money to take DH to court over stupid crap. I'd rather have that money go toward SS13's college fund or school supplies.

[bewildered]

I can imagine it being painful for the child to see the mom not buying things or taking care of them as well as they deserve.  I remember telling my BPDexW to send things to our daughter by mail - anything - even trinkets/books/whatever - so she feels that "mom does love me" (and so on) ... (When she does send anything, I have asked my daughter to call and thank her for what she sent and they talk, she asks for this-that-whatever and so it goes) ... The concrete manner to show support is by supporting specific needs - and yes, it has NOTHING whatsoever with the custodial parent being able to take care of the child (and the custodial parent will under any circumstance anyway - whether or not the non custodial parent steps up - heck, I cannot even begin to list what I have had to spend on and the needs only keep growing ...)

I have no doubt whatsoever that my BPDexW WILL throw a fit, do something because child support has been assessed against her - I mean, why would a Judge assess child support against the world's best mom?  (and so on ...)

As you (and others note) - the real impact may be the loss of such funds for frivolous filings or otherwise just creating havoc

[bewildered]

Whew ... the little one is back (BPDexW did bring her back) ...

That's the good news

(Now for the rest of the story ...

Last week began with her asking me for a medical insurance card (for emergency she said) -
I did not have an extra, told her I will have one sent - it took me a day or so to reply (I was trying
to see what she was upto) - she wrote back a few hours later telling me that I was putting
the child in danger by refusing to send the card - blah blah ... I scanned my card, sent it in -
this week (Tuesday?) - she sends me a long email about some CT scan she was going to get
done for the child and wanted child's pediatrician to give permission for anesthesia, that
the child has ADD, has allergies and on and on ... So, a few days before she was going
to bring child back, she starts on medical things (She is now carrying insurance for the
child also, it seems) ... Anyway, I will consult with pediatrician to see what needs to be
done (if anything) ... My guess is nothing needs to be done, but in her mind all sorts
of things are needed (!)

But as I started this ... Child is back, seems OK - they seem to have travelled quite a bit

[DadsWife]

Hi Bewildered - I'm so glad to hear your little one is back! 

As for the medical stuff, my non-Dh's uBPDxw was constantly conjuring farcical medical dramas with the child, bordering on Munchausen by Proxy. It was a way to demonstrate Dad's incompetence, that he wasn't taking care of their child properly,  that she was MOTY for identifying and addressing these (non-existent) medical crises.

I think it's an excellent plan to have your child's own pediatrician check your child and look into these issues. If mom has shared these issues with the child, and the child is worried, hopefully your pediatrician can reassure her.  As far as ADD goes, I may be wrong, but I think the process of diagnosis of ADD is complex and time-consuming, possibly involving interviews of key people in the child's life (family, teachers, etc.). I wouldn't think it's something that could be managed well by a doctor who practices far from the child's primary residence.

Again, I'm glad she's back. You sound like an awesome Dad.

[bewildered]

MOTY (!) (Yea, where have I heard that one) (My BPDexW did claim she was the perfect mother at one time)

I have taken the child to the pediatrician since she was 3 weeks old and he has seen nothing to be concerned
with and no surgeries/more tests (but yea, consults now will help also to deal with MOTY)

[bewildered]

And so it goes and goes ... (Or I should subtitle this "Nothing will ever change")

As I wrote, the little one is back - not much worse for wear, seems OK ... once in a while will tell me something that indicates that
MOTY has said some nasty things about events past (and my response is usually "No, that is not what happened, Mom is confused
and does not remember what actually happened")

I get a number of emails today (with receipts attached) - for "Medical expenses" (Uh? My first reaction)

Seems like MOTY took the child to some physician in NY (yea, NYCity) (receipts include all sorts of stuff ...
looks like she took a holiday and also went to a physician)

No explanation who she saw, what the physician said (though some inkling of that was in the email a few days before
I picked up my daughter) (She was already in NY then, I HAD NO IDEA - she was waiting for my child's physician to send
a form saying it's OK for her to have anesthesia or some such and that did not happen)

Yes, she is determined to try and prove to the court that she, MOTY, is the only one concerned about the child's
health and will take her anywhere for treatment ...

Oh well ... I am waiting/will have my child see her regular pediatrician, collect my ammunition
and fire ... when I am ready with what I need - information, data, records (if any) and more.

So, stay tuned - I'll post when I have more - in a week or so (I have some ground to cover to collect
what I need)