First visitation scheduled for today, already a problem

[Think About It....]

I went and signed the agreed upon modification of the Order of Protection yesterday so supervised visitation can begin.  My STBXH's brother is going to be the supervisor.  I like him and his wife, so that's not an issue.  We are to make arrangements via e-mail with me having final say in the exchange location and e-mails to be limited to visitation issues. 

There were several e-mails back and forth to make arrangements.  He, of course, couldn't refrain from adding a couple of extra comments not related to visitation which I simply ignored and didn't give a response.  The last one from him stated that he was bringing the kids to church, out to breakfast, then a movie on Sunday and would drop them off at the Gxxxxpolice department.  I had said the exchange would be at the Axxxx police department.  After rereading the e-mail from him, it seemed like he was planning to bring them over here. He also asked about having them on 7/31 for a few hours. I can't imagine that his brother was going to be willing to be away from his own family all day, so I was a little concerned about just how supervised this was going to be.

I ended up sending another e-mail asking for clarification.  I asked if they were going to be over here and, if so, how did BIL feel about spending the day here.  I again offered to pick them up at the Axxx station if it presented a problem for his brother.  I also said he could see them 7/31.  I volunteered to take them to BIL's house by 5 pm so they could be there when he got home from work and pick them up at the Axxx station again.

So this morning I get 2 more e-mails.  The first one says that we will just stick with the original exchange time and place in Axxx.  Good.  I know the switch was so he could be in control.  According to the PO, I get final say in location. 

The second one says this:

I was just going to take them out around here, I can pick them up anywhere you want and drop them back off. You don’t to drive the kids to Axxx. I just want to see them; I will not bother you or jeopardize any time with the kids.

What?  OK, how is his brother going to be available to supervise?  No, he is NOT going to just pick them up and drop them back off.  I know he works near our home and the other way is in no way convenient.  But NO WAY is this going to happen.  It is a court order, not a suggestion!  It has been less than 24 hours since the agreement was signed and he's already trying to do whatever he wants.  He seems to truly believe that rules apply to other people, not him.  I am too stunned to even reply to him just yet.  I am tempted to reply by "innocently" asking what time his brother will be over here to supervise that visit.  Or calling my lawyer to ask her to contact his lawyer to explain what supervised visitation means.   

I want him to be able to see the kids regularly, but in a safe environment.  I am trying to be reasonable and somewhat flexible for the kids' sake.  But good grief!  Does he not realize that going against the OP can end in his arrest?  I need suggestions on how to word my response to him.  I know that I should address him directly and probably inform my lawyer, but I am having a hard time doing that without sounding as angry as I am right now.  Any suggestions?

[2bad2stay]

I went and signed the agreed upon modification of the Order of Protection yesterday so supervised visitation can begin.  My STBXH's brother is going to be the supervisor.  I like him and his wife, so that's not an issue.  We are to make arrangements via e-mail with me having final say in the exchange location and e-mails to be limited to visitation issues. 

There were several e-mails back and forth to make arrangements.  He, of course, couldn't refrain from adding a couple of extra comments not related to visitation which I simply ignored and didn't give a response.  The last one from him stated that he was bringing the kids to church, out to breakfast, then a movie on Sunday and would drop them off at the Gxxxxpolice department.  I had said the exchange would be at the Axxxx police department.  After rereading the e-mail from him, it seemed like he was planning to bring them over here. He also asked about having them on 7/31 for a few hours. I can't imagine that his brother was going to be willing to be away from his own family all day, so I was a little concerned about just how supervised this was going to be.

I ended up sending another e-mail asking for clarification.  I asked if they were going to be over here and, if so, how did BIL feel about spending the day here.  I again offered to pick them up at the Axxx station if it presented a problem for his brother.  I also said he could see them 7/31.  I volunteered to take them to BIL's house by 5 pm so they could be there when he got home from work and pick them up at the Axxx station again.

So this morning I get 2 more e-mails.  The first one says that we will just stick with the original exchange time and place in Axxx.  Good.  I know the switch was so he could be in control.  According to the PO, I get final say in location. 

The second one says this:

I was just going to take them out around here, I can pick them up anywhere you want and drop them back off. You don’t to drive the kids to Axxx. I just want to see them; I will not bother you or jeopardize any time with the kids.

What?  OK, how is his brother going to be available to supervise?  No, he is NOT going to just pick them up and drop them back off.  I know he works near our home and the other way is in no way convenient.  But NO WAY is this going to happen.  It is a court order, not a suggestion!  It has been less than 24 hours since the agreement was signed and he's already trying to do whatever he wants.  He seems to truly believe that rules apply to other people, not him.  I am too stunned to even reply to him just yet.  I am tempted to reply by "innocently" asking what time his brother will be over here to supervise that visit.  Or calling my lawyer to ask her to contact his lawyer to explain what supervised visitation means.   

I want him to be able to see the kids regularly, but in a safe environment.  I am trying to be reasonable and somewhat flexible for the kids' sake.  But good grief!  Does he not realize that going against the OP can end in his arrest?  I need suggestions on how to word my response to him.  I know that I should address him directly and probably inform my lawyer, but I am having a hard time doing that without sounding as angry as I am right now.  Any suggestions?

[laurena82]

Hi  2B2S,

I probably havent had enough coffee yet this am...but I'm having trouble following this all ...

You have a court order that specifies drop off/pick up time/location, and that BIL is to be supervising visit?

If so, I advise following that completely, and forget about changing ANY of it...as you can see, it all just leads to more problems...

So this morning I get 2 more e-mails.  The first one says that we will just stick with the original exchange time and place in Axxx.  Good.  I know the switch was so he could be in control.  According to the PO, I get final say in location. 

The second one says this:

I was just going to take them out around here, I can pick them up anywhere you want and drop them back off.

So, "anywhere you want" is the court specified location/time/situation.

Since you seem to have confusion, ESPECIALLY with the supervision stuff...and today is a 'business day" friday...it MIGHT be a good idea to call your lawyer, express these concerns and just ask him to FAX a memo to BPDXH's attorney outlining you will be sticking with the order, and re-iterating what exactly the order is, and asking him to clarify with his client what his responsiblity is regarding the order.  (e.g., you dont want to get there, see no sign of BIL, and then get into a debate at 6 pm tonight or whatever over WHEN BIL needs to be "present" to be supervising)

Best wishes! (...these thing shouldnt be so difficult...sigh...)

[safetyfirst]

Do you have BIL email address?  If he is, indeed, going to be supervising, he should know what arrangments are being made for his time.  Does BIL understand the details of the OP and what is expected of a supervisor?  I think you should be BCCing BIL as well as possibly your lawyer with all of these email communications.  On second thought, CC BIL and keep the BCC for your lawyer.  Or better yet, before you send off another email, call BIL to confirm that he is 'on board' with the whole thing and let him know that he will be included from this point forward on all communications relating to visitation.  While you have final say, and 'negotiations' are mainly between you and ex, BIL should have some say as well since his time is just as fully involved in this.

All this, in addition to what Laurena just posted!

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[2bad2stay]

Sorry I was so confusing and thanks for the reply.  I'll clarify a little so I can make more sense.  I've had more coffee now. LOL.

On 7/11, I was granted an Order of Protection for me and the kids.  STBXH has been verbally, mentally, emotionally, and occasionally physically abusive to kids.  In April he threatened to drive our van, with all of us in it, off into a deep rock quarry and kill us all.  Yesterday I went to my lawyer to sign a modification of the Order so STBXH could see the kids.  It is very specific that visitation is to be supervised by his brother, I get final say in the time and location of the exchanges, communication is to be by e-mail first (then by phone if there is no response within a day), and all communication is to be just about visitation scheduling.

I just called the lawyer's office and left a message explaining that he seems to think supervision is optional.  Hopefully they will call back soon.

[funefarm4]

Ok. I had a very similar situation to yours.

If I understand correctly, here's the deal:

You get to say the times and drop offs
BIL is to supervise?
You have a protection from abuse order now in effect?

The PFA should have things in it like you have to stay 50 feet away, etc.  Therefore, you should not be present at the drop offs.

Ok, I'd make arrangements with BIL if he's supervising.  You drop the kids off at BIL's before ex shows up 15 minutes before.  You pick them up 15 minutes after the visit.

If the visits must be supervised, when is BIL available? Either that or another supervisor must be found.

If he doesn't have supervised visitation, he is in contempt and although difficult, it will go better for you in the long marathon that is court.  My ex had supervised, and did very well during it, mostly because people bent over backwards to accomodate him and make it possible for him to have unsupervised visits. 

He did test the waters in the beginning and continues to do so.

One theme of an abuser is that they will continue to abuse.  You and your ex already have an established pattern of communication--he demands and bullies and gets what he wants.  This has been something I've had to work very hard to overcome.

If he shows up with the kids at your house, he's violating the PFA. Call the police and have it documented. Do this every single time he breaks the PFA and leave a paper trail. I didn't do this and it came back to bite me.

If he doesn't return the kids after his visitation, to the place you have told him to meet as orderd by the court order, you can call your lawyer and ask about filing ex parte etc.

Don't play the game.

Abide by the order...make the call to BIL...hold him accountable etc.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

[2bad2stay]

I'm new to this, so I guess my mistake was not calling my BIL directly.  I was just advised to e-mail STBXH to set it up.  I called my lawyer's office and left a message.  I am guessing they must have contacted his lawyer because I got another e-mail a bit ago.  Here's the latest:

from STBXH:Sorry, I just got the papers; I did not know Fxxxx was to supervise. I live at Mxxx’s for now but will get with Fxxxx and stay there this week-end; I will probably need the pillows and blankets.

I will get back to you on 7-31 plans; I have to arrange with Fxxxx.

I don’t want to violate anything.


My response:I will send the blankets and pillows.  If you need to change the pick-up time to accomodate Fxxxx being there, let me know.  Otherwise, I will be in Axxxx at 7.

STBX's reply:  I am trying to contact him now, does he know about this? He gets home at 3pm it should not be a problem

My response back: I do not know if he knows.  All I know was that I was asked by the lawyer if I was OK with Fxxxx supervising, which I am.  I was told to contact you to set up the times and location to exchange the kids, which I did.  I was under the impression that you were aware of all of this since it was your lawyer who proposed the arrangement of Fxxxx supervising. and I simply agreed to it.  If he's not available, we need to reschedule or make some kind of a modification on the times. 


I will obviously be calling BIL directly from now on to avoid this.  But there is no way he didn't know this was the arrangement.  It's not like his lawyer pulled his brother's name out of thin air.  I really think he's testing the water to see how far I will bend the rules.  That and the fact that he thinks rules, in general, don't apply to him because he's special. : 

[funefarm4]

He's also trying to communicate with you.

Do yourself a favor and try to minimize contact between the 2 of you right from the bat.  The abuser will never admit that his "victim" has actually gotten the gumption to leave.  It's all about power and also drawing you back in.

From now on, communicate with BIL.  Do NOT believe what your STBX tells you.  I can't tell you how many calls I got from my x that so and so supervisor couldn't be reached etc.  They had agreed. Lie after LIE...

Oh, the blanket and pillow routine too.

One step at at time honey...I wish I could show you my journals from that crazy time...

I actually sent toothbrushes and food.

Truly, he needs to provide blankets and pillows...this needs to be addressed with your lawyer too.

Of course he knew the arrangement.  It's all lies and cover.  He's trying to see how far he can go.  Then, he'll back pedal and be sweet and kind. It's the abuse cycle all over again.

Abusers in general don't think the rules apply to them. Also, he's learned, just like my ex, that I would back down during the marriage to keep the peace. We had already established a pattern of communication and problem solving. 

What he didn't realize was that I had changed and those patterns no longer were going to work.

I still fall back into those old patterns at times...

Start now, set the standard, and keep on going. You're doing great.

[2bad2stay]

Thanks for the encouragement.  I am sending the pillows and blankets because my kids each have a favorite pillow and I'm not sure BIL and SIL have enough blankets.  It's not out of concern for him, but because I want the kids to be comfortable. Because of the autism/Asperger's, they don't do well with change.  The more I can keep the same during all of this, the better it is for them. I'm not sure BIL and SIL have enough blankets, so I will send 2 sleeping bags. 

He's on his own for the food.  I won't be sending any of that.

I just wanted to make it clear in the last e-mail that if there was no supervision, there will be no visitation.  I will not ever make an exception to that as long as that is what is ordered.  I will be dealing with my BIL directly from now on.  He's a decent person and so is his wife.

I also know you are right about him trying to communicate with me.  I think I am going to quit responding to every e-mail and only send one at the end of the day responding to anything that needs a response (i.e.  only visitation scheduling issues).  Anything else thrown in will be ignored.  If it becomes frequent, I will point out what the OP says about it only being for visitation purposes and that if it continues, I will let the proper people know that he's not following it.

The rules have changed.  He'll have to deal with it.

[funefarm4]

My kids also have autism--2 of them.

I also did the sleeping bag thing--to which he decided that he didn't have to get beds for them.  I would get wording in your court order about this so he's sure what he has to provide.

So, this time send the blankets, but next time, he needs to get his own. The pillows, if they are attached to them of course always go. 

My ex has continued and upped the ante so to speak. He uses the children as pawns...it's sad...but I guess it's the progression of the abusive relationship.  He wants control no matter what.

Good for you setting the boundary with him.  Be prepared that he will test it.  Be prepared to walk away if he doesn't show up with a supervisor.  Perhaps you want to role play in your mind what that might look like and how you might handle it.  I found that in the beginning, I was just so overwhelmed. 

Think of firm yet appropriate things to do and say.

I think that actually once a day is too much to be in communication with him too.  He will try to get you drawn in.  You should set up the visitation so it is the same each and every time.  Contact BIL and ask him to serve as a mediator between you 2.

My DH started relaying messages for me to Partboy, my pet name for my ex.  It really helped the situation, because the whole goal for my ex was to engage me.  Once I was out of the middle of the situation, the drama dropped incredibly.

I'd suggest to you this--I actually got a website using the simple machines forum--the same as this forum. I post everything he needs to know up on the board.  I lock each topic so he can't communicate(argue) back.  This would be a wonderful way to communicate things to him.

Use email only for issues that need discussion...which will be hopefully far and few between.

You can PM me for more info if you'd like.

[2bad2stay]

That's a very good idea about practicing what I will say in different scenarios.  If there is no supervisor at the pick-up, there is no visitation.  That's not up for discussion.

Right now he is staying at a friend's house and staying at his brother's for the weekends with the kids.  There isn't room for more beds and it isn't even his place.  Once he is in a place, I expect him to provide all of the normal items like beds and blankets.

I am not going to tolerate daily e-mail contact.  I am hoping to get to the lowest amount of contact possible.  I will e-mail my BIL to see if we can agree on a set time, location, and schedule.  Then there should only be contact via e-mail if there is an emergency change in plans.  Or he can have BIL call me directly.

 

[funefarm4]

Exactly!

 

The point is that now you are setting bondaries and establishing a routine of how it will be.  Set those boundaries high.

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