COMMUNICATION: Validation - tools and techniques

[HeartOfaBuddha]

Yesterday I started to go back through all the posts in this workshop and I ended up finally watching the first video.  Honestly, it gave me a whole new understanding of what I've been doing wrong and changes I need to make.  I would reccomend that anyone who really wants to understand validation should take the time to watch.  Thanks for this workshop.  Thanks for the links.  And thanks for giving this thread a bump.

Peace & Meta


Understanding Validation in Families    



Alan E. Fruzzetti, PhD    51 min., 53 sec.    Oct-2008

Here is an excellent chance to learn validation from a renowned specialist in the field of BPD and DBT. It's like having your own private validation lesson and includes a power point slide along with the video of the lecture. The first video is 51 min, so get comfortable and open your mind and your heart to the power of validation. Alan Fruzzetti PhD is the author of "High Conflict Couples" and works closely with Dr Marsha Linehan and the NEA BPD. This video (and many others) can be found at NEA BPD.

Video page:  http://www.borderlinepersonalitydisorder.com/videos-by-topic.shtml
Scroll down to Understanding Validation in Families    Alan E. Fruzzetti, PhD    51 min., 53 sec.    Oct-2008

[faigel]

ok, i am the mother of a bpd daughter, 31yo.
i dont like the feel of validating her. after she is so nasty, hateful, etc,

i really dont want to validate her at all.

i want to lock myself in my room or get her out of my house.

it might work but it seems like its just giving more power to someone who is already manipulating as much as she can.

faigel

[nonna12345]

ok, i am the mother of a bpd daughter, 31yo.
i dont like the feel of validating her. after she is so nasty, hateful, etc,

i really dont want to validate her at all.

i want to lock myself in my room or get her out of my house.

it might work but it seems like its just giving more power to someone who is already manipulating as much as she can.

faigel

I am the MIL of a ubpd DIL.  I understand every word you wrote.  Confusing illness BPD is.  

Validation sometimes feels like I am placating her so I can be around my son and the grandkids ... not very pleasant.  

But, I am learning about radical acceptance ... at least that will give me permission to not like the behavior of my DIL and reinforce that I cannot change one thing... just myself.

[Skip]

ok, i am the mother of a bpd daughter, 31yo... it might work but it seems like its just giving more power to someone who is already manipulating as much as she can.

I certainly get these feelings.  A cycle of conflict usually feels this way.  pwBPD are suffering and its hard to love someone that is suffering.

I think the hard question to ask ourselves is  which do we value more, peace in our family or our own sense of justice and secondarily do the relationship problems all fall to the other person or are we part in it or part of making it worse.

The first question is about personal values and I won't presume I can guide anyone on this.   For the second question, I thought a look at Bowen's "family systems" theory might be helpful.  I found it really humbling and it made me much more aware of myself in the family dynamics.



An individual’s overall life functioning is linked closely to his level of emotional maturity or differentiation. Emotional immaturity manifests in unrealistic needs and expectations. ~ Murray Bowen, M.D

Family members so profoundly affect each other's thoughts, feelings, and actions that it often seems as if people are living under the same "emotional skin." People solicit each other's attention, approval, and support and react to each other's needs, expectations, and distress. The connectedness and reactivity make the functioning of family members interdependent. A change in one person's functioning is predictably followed by reciprocal changes in the functioning of others.~ Murray Bowen, M.D

People select ... partners who have the same level of emotional maturity.  ~ Murray Bowen, M.D

The theory was developed by Murray Bowen, M.D. in the late 1940’s and early 1950’s, when he was a psychiatrist at the Menninger Clinic. After his time at Menninger’s, he moved to the National Institute of Mental Health, to Georgetown University Medical Center and finally established the Georgetown Family Center in Washington, D.C.

[united for now]

OK, time to practice validation: chose a scenario and try to form a emotional validating response.

#1 - you don't love me

#2 - I saw you looking at her

#3 - You forgot to take the garbage out again. Why do I always have to do everything?

#4 - You make me so mad!

#5 - Why are you late?

#6 - I don't think I can go on anymore


Remember:
Don't defend
Don't deny
Don't justify

[dados76]

#1 - you don't love me

whats up R? what happened?
stuff like that.. probably has a trigger somewhere.. sometimes its easier to focus on the stuff happening.. at least so i know where hes coming from..

#2 - I saw you looking at her him

yup.. what do you think? 6?7?

#3 - You forgot to take the garbage out again. Why do I always have to do everything?

you do do alot around here. do you want help doing something?
(usual answer from him.. 'no.. i just want to complain.')
okay.. so complain.. 15 minutes to complain about house chores.. go!

#4 - You make me so mad!

whats up R?

#5 - Why are you late?

got distracted.. my bad..

#6 - I don't think I can go on anymore

ok.. what is happening?
.. this is.. a lot more about listening.. to what hes trying to say than making him feel better.. usually..

[Steph]

#1 - you don't love me
     Hmm...sucks you are feeling like that. Wanna talk more about that?

#2 - I saw you looking at her/him
          I did.

#3 - You forgot to take the garbage out again. Why do I always have to do everything?
       Ack, I did forget. Im sorry. Thanks for handling that for me! You saved my butt on that one

#4 - You make me so mad!
      Yea, I do make you mad sometimes. Need to blow off some steam? Want to take a walk with me?

#5 - Why are you late?
           Im sorry. I should have called.

#6 - I don't think I can go on anymore
        Hey, I am not sure what you mean. Need to talk awhile?

[ifsogirl26]

#1 - you don't love me
     Oh honey, why do you think that?

#2 - I saw you looking at her/him
          Yes, I did look over at him at dinner, what are you thinking?

#3 - You forgot to take the garbage out again. Why do I always have to do everything?
       Oops, I am sorry. I know that I forgot and I will try to remember next time.

#4 - You make me so mad!
       I do? What is it that you are upset about? Want to talk about it?

#5 - Why are you late?
         (question - why can't you answer why you are late?)
        Sorry baby, I will call next time.

#6 - I don't think I can go on anymore
       What do you mean?

[Live and Grow]

#1 - you don't love me
     
     "WOW" pause... "you feel I don't love you?" pause...

(see if he says anything never mind that he would NEVER make a statement like this!)
       
      If nothing then I could say
     
       "can you tell me more about feeling that I don't love you?"

(I'd probably have to check to make sure it was my guy and double check...he'd never say this*
   

#2 - I saw you looking at her/him

     this ones tough.  I'll assume the guy/gal is attractive...

     
       
      "hmmm yes. That guy is attractive."  pause...
     

 I Have no idea where to go with this...
     

or 
      Maybe try  "How are you feeling about that?" instead...


      Ummm.  This conversation would get me in trouble.  Safer to say "what guy?"
     

     

#3 - You forgot to take the garbage out again. Why do I always have to do everything?

       "It's tough to feel like your the only one doing all the chores."  "I'll take the trash out now."   


#4 - You make me so mad!

       "your angry with me"
        pause for tirade
       "can you tell me more about why your angry?"
        pause for more tirade
       "I see, you feel that I (whatever the tirade was about) , well - anybody would be upset about that"



#5 - Why are you late?

      (first - I am never late unless something really really bad happened)
       "It's frustrating when you've had to wait for someone else, anybody would be upset about that"



#6 - I don't think I can go on anymore

     "wow.  That sounds really painful.  Wanna tell me more about whats going on?"

[peacebaby]

Herewith, emotionally validating responses! Not necessarily what I'd say in my situation with my partner, but clear, solid, official plain emotional validation.

#1 - you don't love me
Wow, that must suck, to feel like I don't love you. You must be hurting.

#2 - I saw you looking at her
I get that it bothers you when you feel I'm noticing other women. Jealousy is a normal response.

#3 - You forgot to take the garbage out again. Why do I always have to do everything?
I hear you. I know how much it sucks to feel like you're always the one who has to do everything.

#4 - You make me so mad!
I totally get that you're mad. I'm hearing you, and I get that's where you're coming from.

#5 - Why are you late?
I don't blame you for being pissed off that I'm late.

#6 - I don't think I can go on anymore
Life is really hard sometimes--I totally hear what you're saying.


Peacebaby

[united for now]

#5 - Why are you late?
         (question - why can't you answer why you are late?)
        Sorry baby, I will call next time.

When we walk in the door late, our SO often hit us with a blast of anger for being late. This anger is actually based on fear and worry (primary emotions), it just comes out as anger (secondary emotion) at us. When we offer a factual explanation, we aren't addressing the root cause - their fears and worries. We are offering them facts - not emotional validation. Make sense?

#5 - Why are you late?

      (first - I am never late unless something really really bad happened)
       "It's frustrating when you've had to wait for someone else, anybody would be upset about that"

This addresses the primary emotion, worry and frustration... great validation 

[FireFighter]

Validating Responses...
#1- You don't love me
 - Wow, you must feel terrible to think that way...Hey, lets do something romantic tonight.  We'll order in and we can snuggle up in front of the fireplace.  Just you and me and no distractions.
#2 - I saw you looking at her.
 -  Aaaww, you seem a little jealous...You know I find you amazing.
#3- You forgot to take the garbage out again. Why do I always have to do everything?
 - You seem really busy.  What do you have left to do?  Maybe we can work on it together and then we both can relax.
#4 - You make me so mad!
 - Yeah, I can see that you are really angry.  Let's talk about it in a little while.
#5 - Why are you late?
 - I'm sorry for running late.  I can see that you are feeling a little upset with me.
#6 - I don't think I can go on anymore
 - Wow, you sound really down in the dumps.  What's wrong?  Something not go your way today?

Codependent Responses...
#1- You don't love me
 - That's not true.  I love you more than anything.  What can I do to prove my love to you?
#2 - I saw you looking at her.
 -  You know that I only have eyes for you.  No one is as pretty as you are.  I am so lucky that you are in my life.
#3- You forgot to take the garbage out again. Why do I always have to do everything?
 - I'm sorry I was just going to do it.  Is there anything else you need me to do?
#4 - You make me so mad!
 - I'm sorry.  What can I do to make it up to you.  Want me to put a DVD in and I can give you a foot massage to relax you?
#5 - Why are you late?
 - I'm sorry.  It won't happen again.  I was picking up a gift for you and it took longer than I thought.
#6 - I don't think I can go on anymore
 - No don't say that.  What would I do without you.  I can't live without you.


Invalidating Responses...
#1- You don't love me
 - Pfffth.  That's not true.  I am still married to you aren't I?  That must say something.
#2 - I saw you looking at her.
 -  No I wasn't.  I was just thinking about something and didn't notice her till you pointed her out.
#3- You forgot to take the garbage out again. Why do I always have to do everything?
 - What do you mean everything?  I worked all day.  Besides I took the garbage out yesterday.
#4 - You make me so mad!
 - How can I make you mad when I've been at work all day and just walked in the door?
#5 - Why are you late?
 - Bah, whaddaya mean late?  Five minutes is hardly late.
#6 - I don't think I can go on anymore
 - Go have a nap.  You will be fine when you wake up.

Deathwish Responses...
#1- You don't love me
 - You got that right.  You are lucky I haven't divorced you yet.
#2 - I saw you looking at her.
 -  Yeah did you see the cans on her.  How bout you get a job and buy yourself a boob job.
#3- You forgot to take the garbage out again. Why do I always have to do everything?
 - Who makes the money around here so you can buy your fancy clothes?  Bout time you did something around here.
#4 - You make me so mad!
 - On the rag again? Isn't that like for the 3rd time this month?
#5 - Why are you late?
 - I had to give a new secretary at work a ride home.  She showed me her new place and it took longer than I thought.
#6 - I don't think I can go on anymore
 - Since you are up can you grab me a beer?  The game just started.

[dados76]

and.. of course everybody is different.. i can get away w/my responses.. bc i know my partner.. and ive had to learn what he responds to.. and what he really doesnt..

FF would probably get yelled at for giving my responses.. and no way could i use that language to try and validate R.. so a lot of learning to validate.. is figuring out how it works.. for you.. so it can sound natural..

[FireFighter]

FF would probably get yelled at for giving my responses.. and no way could i use that language to try and validate R.. so a lot of learning to validate.. is figuring out how it works.. for you.. so it can sound natural..

I like your approach Dados better than what I came up with.  A timely "What's up?" with the tone of your voice and body language expressing concern and interest I think is a simple and nearly universal approach while you get up to speed with being blindsided by your partner's emotions.  It is good because you are not on the defensive by taking the statements at face value and internalizing them... surefire way to lead to a fight. 

Your approach works, that is what is important.  I can definitely see how over the top validating can come across as patronizing when the claws are out looking for a fight with anyone or anything.

Admittedly, the codependent responses that I came up with are far easier for me than the validating type ones.

[dados76]

Validation is great stuff, and a wonderful tool...yes...however, I believe very strongly that it is important that people new to this BPD gong show...need to know, that they do NOT have to validate 24/7. It's not "normal" and quite frankly...it is NOT your job.

thats why.. you validate the valid.. invalidate the invalid.. but feelings are valid.. facts can be invalid or valid..

but.. true.. you only need to learn to validate if you want to communicate w/out sh*t hitting the fan once in a while.. or if you want to eventually get heard.. or if you want your partner to want to talk to you.. other than that stuff.. totally not necessary.. so.. depends what you like to get out of things :D

[FireFighter]

Here is my attempt to translate the statements into the emotions behind the "facts"

BPD Translator...
#1 - You don't love me
 - I am feeling neglected and feel I am not getting enough attention from you.
#2 - I saw you looking at her.
 -  I am feeling insecure/fearful that you don't want to be with me any more but would rather be with that person across the room. Leaving me alone.
#3- You forgot to take the garbage out again. Why do I always have to do everything?
 - I am overwhelmed by my emotions with nothing in its proper place or anything done properly.  Everything is wrong and I can't handle it.
#4 - You make me so mad!
 - I am so angry and it must be your fault that I feel this way.
#5 - Why are you late?
 - I am feeling insecure that you were never going to come home and abandon me forever.  What would I do then?
#6 - I don't think I can go on anymore
 - I am so depressed and desperately need to change the way I feel.  Please change the way I feel about myself. I beg you.

When you validate properly...you are talking to the emotions behind the statements to soothe the emotions that manifest themselves in words.  Emotions are not right or wrong...they just are.

I suppose the difficulty comes in when the same words are sometimes used as an expression of emotions and sometimes used as an expression of logic. 

In dados case, sometimes his partner is talking in logic and becomes frsutrated when the response is addressing emotions rather than facts that he was looking for which then trigger an emotional response.  Complicated stuff do get right all the time. 

This brings to mind the adage: Less is more.

[dados76]

This brings to mind the adage: Less is more.

yup.

[bowla]

so i have to ask this...out of personal interest...

my SO constantly telling me that he deals in facts... his facts baffles me.. cause to me they often seem far fetch, and not really close to reality as i see it... im sure u all know how that is, or maybe its just my ever loving...

how do i respond when he is talking in "facts" 

[an0ught]

so i have to ask this...out of personal interest...

my SO constantly telling me that he deals in facts... his facts baffles me.. cause to me they often seem far fetch, and not really close to reality as i see it... im sure u all know how that is, or maybe its just my ever loving...

how do i respond when he is talking in "facts" 

If facts don't make sense he is dysregulated and deluded. So either don't discuss or argue with nonsensical facts (boundary) or validate the emotions that cause him to feel so strongly. Him stating he is dealing with facts is just a statement expressing strong feelings and a ploy to draw you in a rational discussion - which at this point in time will be perceived as invalidating and will cause a blow-up - validating his pre-existing dysregulation and leaving you guilty.

Don't play this game. The only way to win is not to play.

[bowla]

the fact is that u dont teach ur kids to take care of themselves... the fact is that ur son will be a waste of space if u dont step up and become a mother.. the fact is... u deal in emotions, and i deal in facts...

u cant see the real world, cause u live in a bubble.. a rosecovered bubble with fussy edges... i live in the real world, so i see only facts...

this is what he tells me alot...

how do i validate, or even set boundries, or whatever...what do i do with it...

he says things that i find sooo wierd...and i have bought into it in the past... cause i wasnt sure about my self...now i will always go with my gut feeling, the first reaction that comes up, is usually dont pay any attention to it... but its hard... i have had to learn to trust my own judgement... thanks to all u guys, i am starting too...


still have a lot of areas that im unsure, and not sure what to do or say... and theese are obviously the areas that he is picking on, cause he cant get reaction out of the ones that usually worked...


find it hard to validate... someone said earlier that there is one frase that i can truly use without feeling bad...and that is "im sorry u feel that way" cause i am truly sorry he feels that way...


sorry im ranting along...

just not sure how to deal with his facts...