COMMUNICATION: Validation - tools and techniques

[Skip]

Level 6 - Radical Genuineness
The key to all validation is to be genuine.

Being genuine is a huge part of this.  If you listen to Dr. Fruzzetti's video, he talks about how this develops.  It's forced in the beginning , but your own need to be true to yourself will drive you to find a way to make it genuine.

It's easy to see when others are not empathetic - much harder to see ourselves.   Some of us have impaired empathy.

I've read from many members that have successfully rebuilt their relationships will look back and see that they lacked empathy earlier on.

Empathy is a big part of good mental health.  A personality disorder is defined by impairment in two of the following: empathy, intimacy, self image, and self function.

Where would your empathy?  

Skippy



Clinical definition* of empathy

∆ Healthy (0) Capable of accurately understanding others’ experiences and motivations in most situations. Comprehends and appreciates others’ perspectives, even if disagreeing.  Is aware of the effect of own actions on others.

∆ Mild impairment (1) Somewhat compromised in ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences; may tend to see others as having unreasonable expectations or a wish for control. Although capable of considering and understanding different perspectives, resists doing so. Inconsistent is awareness of effect of own behavior on others.

∆ Impaired (2) Hyper-attuned to the experience of others, but only with respect to perceived relevance to self. Excessively self-referential; significantly compromised ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences and to consider alternative perspectives. Generally unaware of or unconcerned about effect of own behavior on others, or unrealistic appraisal of own effect.

∆ Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering.  Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.

∆ Extreme Impairment (4)  Pronounced inability to consider and understand others’ experience and motivation. Attention to others' perspectives virtually absent (attention is hypervigilant, focused on need-fulfillment and harm avoidance).  Social interactions can be confusing and disorienting.

* Definition as per DSM 5 draft proposal

[toomanyeggshells]

This is an excellent post which I'm going to read over and over again.  I know that if I could validate better (or at all), my r/s would be better.  Its just so hard to do when I feel like I'm talking to a 2 year old.

The key thing is to ask a lot of questions.  Get them to talk to you like you're stupid. 

This actually seems like very helpful advice.

[LifeInSNAFUville]

I have been using these suggestions all day in my communications. What I get back is that I am being mean. Then there are more circular conversations interspersed with diversions onto other subjects and back again. I am trying to keep him on the original track but it doesn't seem to be working as he just goes back to saying I'm mean and going off again. He just told me he knows I wish he'd hang himself.

Is this where I stop for the day?

[Aurylian]

I have been using these suggestions all day in my communications. What I get back is that I am being mean. Then there are more circular conversations interspersed with diversions onto other subjects and back again. I am trying to keep him on the original track but it doesn't seem to be working as he just goes back to saying I'm mean and going off again. He just told me he knows I wish he'd hang himself.

Is this where I stop for the day?

I was holding off on bringing this up, but since SNAFU started it  --in my situation validation works some of the time.  But, often my BPDw is tenacious in wanting me to agree with her facts or opinions (as in affirming I do or don't feel the same).  It's almost like she is saying "your validation means nothing to me if you don't agree with my facts or opinions."

[iluminati]

I have been using these suggestions all day in my communications. What I get back is that I am being mean. Then there are more circular conversations interspersed with diversions onto other subjects and back again. I am trying to keep him on the original track but it doesn't seem to be working as he just goes back to saying I'm mean and going off again. He just told me he knows I wish he'd hang himself.

Is this where I stop for the day?

I was holding off on bringing this up, but since SNAFU started it  --in my situation validation works some of the time.  But, often my BPDw is tenacious in wanting me to agree with her facts or opinions (as in affirming I do or don't feel the same).  It's almost like she is saying "your validation means nothing to me if you don't agree with my facts or opinions."

I think that when it comes to that, you just have to agree to disagree.  If you get someone coming after you to agree, that's when you roll out.  I know I've had to do that on occasion.  When a pwBPD does that, they aren't looking to be heard, but be listened to.  They want to control you, and you don't have to go with that.

[united for now]

I have been using these suggestions all day in my communications. What I get back is that I am being mean. Then there are more circular conversations interspersed with diversions onto other subjects and back again. I am trying to keep him on the original track but it doesn't seem to be working as he just goes back to saying I'm mean and going off again. He just told me he knows I wish he'd hang himself.

Is this where I stop for the day?

Validation isn't a cure all for everything.
Sometimes there "is" an agenda, where they are focused on getting you to agree or change something.

ex. Your spouse may be interested in sexual intimacy and you are not. They may push the issue and get upset when you say "no".

You can validate and show you agree with them wanting something without caving in to their demands. You take care of yourself by refusing to get sucked into endless circular arguments. This is where multiple issues occur.  Validation, setting limits on what you will listen to, and taking care of yourself.

If you previously gave in to them after endless badgering and whining or them getting mad and raging at you, then you inadvertently gave them intermittent reinforcement (one of the hardest lessons to unlearn for both partners) , thus they are more likely to keep badgering you in the hopes that you will cave in to them. Your past actions have shown that through repeated attempts that they can win or get what they want (think slot machines). They aren't trusting your words but are basing their arguments on their own desire to get what they want and your past history of giving in. Your words won't mean a lot to them at first if this is the case.

Actions speak way louder than words, and our actions have to be consistent and strong for any lasting change to occur.

[jhan6120]

I think I occasionally invalidate my uBPDgf because I'm a HUMAN BEING TOO and I occasionally get exhausted from dealing with someone who is completely controlled by their emotions. And so I give myself a break about it.

[qkslvrgirl]

 As Jhan just expressed, we are only human and we tire of carrying the burden of constant mental health caregiver. This is when we nons are both more likely to appear vulnerable to a BPD (and they move in for the kill) and, having been attacked (invalidated) ourselves, we dish it back.

I've noticed that "becoming aware of my thoughts" has proved to be a useful tool to become more immune to having my own buttons pressed. Here are a couple of examples:

1) When I am alone, do I think constantly in terms of "stories" about why this-or-that was said? Can I stop the mental chatter and just "be" - and release any negative thinking in relation to what has happened or was said?

2) Am I taking responsibility at all times for how I feel? Am I aware that my emotions are separate from the reality - they are a physical expression of the thoughts I am choosing to think?

Sometimes I have to remind myself that MY emotional reactions are under MY control - I choose to jump through the hoop - or not. The emotions I feel are the result of the mental story I make up to explain my situation. If I make up a different story line, then I can change the temporary surge of emotions that are only a flood of some biochemical that my thoughts have triggered within me.

I hope that by mastering my own thought processes, I can put down the burden that is not mine to carry - and demonstrate another possible set of behaviors to the BPD.

[sheepdog]

I think I'm begining to understand.  So, say that she's really mad about something she thinks I did: instead of saying I didn't do it - just say "I would be really mad too if someone did that" 
Am I getting the idea?  Unless she asks me specifically - I should just answer to her point of view - and not to what really happened.

Peace & Metta

I know this is old but I was directed to this thread and it has been helpful but confusing.   
When the person above posted that the response to it was that yes, she was getting it and understanding the process. 
Do you ever then discuss what really happened?  Because if not, it just seems so...false.
I don't know.  I guess I'm not very good at this...   ?

[united for now]

That depends... What is your goal?

To show acceptance or to prove yourself right or innocent ?
 
To heal and rebuild trust?

To keep up the status quo of arguments and petty control attempts?

How critical is it that you prove them wrong?

Can it wait for later?

Can you understand their feelings first and then state your point of veiw?

[sheepdog]

My goal would be to rebuild trust and not to prove them wrong nor me right but to state facts.
I guess what I am grappling with is if I say 'I would be really mad if someone did that too' and then never got the chance to say that what he thought was not what I was doing...well how do you build trust like that?

I promise I am not being belligerent.  This is part of it that i really don't understand.

[united for now]

Perception "is" reality


They don't "perceive" the world as we do. They "feel" emotions more intensely than you do. They interpret behaviors differently than we do. What matters to you doesn't make sense to them. Facts don't matter to them. You can explain "facts" till the cows come home and they still won't get it. Not because they don't want to - they really can't.

you are speaking a language he can't understand.


Your emotions              Your Logic


His emotions                 His Logic

You are struggling and still focusing on "facts" because you can't let him win, or be right, or because you need to justify your actions, or to explain your point of view.

What happens if you let go of your side of the argument?

[sheepdog]

I don't know.  I guess I think if I let go then I am reinforcing all the stuff he believes.

I don't know.  I am tired.  Sorry.  Guess I need to read some more. 

From my experience, when I let go of my side of the argument it is like saying 'i did all of that.'

What exactly am I accepting if I let go and don't want to be able to talk about it at a calmer, safer time? 

It seems I'm accepting that I did something bad to him and that I am not going to defend myself when given verbal crap. 

Acceptance meaning he is mentally ill so what he thinks, no matter how false, sick, or twisted, I just need to accept.

[united for now]

People can call you names, it doesn't mean you have to argue with them 

Sheepdog, your trying to "prove" yourself right and him "wrong" is hurting you, it is continuing the battle, it is feeding his dysfunction, and it is slowly destroying the relationship.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200910/what-makes-marriage-work
a good read

[needbpdhelp]

COMMUNICATION: Validation - tools and techniques

Validation of feelings is vital to connecting with others.

In a "BPD relationship" there are going to be validation issues.  As the healthier partner, it falls to us to try to achieve some level of working validation in the relationship - to lead.

• That often means that we need to be very conscious of the pwBPD high validation needs and try to provide for them in a healthy and constructive way

• It also often means that we have reacted in unhealthy ways to feeling invalidated by the pwBPD. We need to fix ourself (the pwBPD isn't going to fix us) and we need to disengage a bit from the push/pull validation habits common to pwBPD

This workshop is about the power of validation!

Thanks for participating!

What has worked very well for me to provide for my wife's high validation needs, is validation when there is no issue at all. Out of the blue compliments about her looks, skills as a parent and teacher, her brilliant mind, and all the other things I love about her that attracted me to her in the first place - before the 'taking her for granted' phase settled in. This has made her feel more loved, trusting, valued, and less confrontational. She dysregulates less, and when she does, her complaints are more reasonable and appropriate.

I so agree with the concept of fixing ourselves. In this case, using some mindful thinking, I have renewed my love for my wife by focusing on all the wonderful aspects of her that I fell in love with so long ago. They are still there, it's just that time, fighting, stressful events, resentment, and apathy, had dulled my appreciation of them.

 One of the lessons in the book - see link High Conflict Couple - is to drag out old pictures, memorabilia, letters, etc., from the happy times in the r/s, and put them in a special place that you can go to and revisit good memories and feelings during stressful hard r/s times. This helps keep your love alive by reminding you of the reasons you stay, and helps you stop the 'taking for granted' attitude. Unfortunately over time many of us started 'taking it for granted' that our r/s would never be a happy one again.

needbpdhelp

[sheepdog]

...by reminding you of the reasons you stay, and helps you stop the 'taking for granted' attitude. Unfortunately over time many of us started 'taking it for granted' that our r/s would never be a happy one again.

needbpdhelp

This is a very interesting way to look at it.  I think I have been guilty of this myself.

[an0ught]

...by reminding you of the reasons you stay, and helps you stop the 'taking for granted' attitude. Unfortunately over time many of us started 'taking it for granted' that our r/s would never be a happy one again.

needbpdhelp

This is a very interesting way to look at it.  I think I have been guilty of this myself.

I often think boundaries and thus the ability to see the other person more clearly is part of this. Realizing that a decision to stay is a choice. Seeing the partner more clearly from the outside and less assuming being on the inside. Staying outside but being interested in the inside. Seeing a relationship as a link up between individuals where one has to care rather than a fusion of them where things are imagined to be automatic.

[sheepdog]

Staying outside but being interested in the inside.

I love that!  So, by staying outside you mean trying not to get enmeshed, trying to be true to yourself and the way you are feeling but letting them know you care about them.  Am I getting that right?

[an0ught]

Staying outside but being interested in the inside.

I love that!  So, by staying outside you mean trying not to get enmeshed, trying to be true to yourself and the way you are feeling but letting them know you care about them.  Am I getting that right?

Yes. Particularly using validation and boundaries to avoid to take ownership for their emotions. There is a lot of pressure on us feeling the same emotions the pwBPD is feeling either due to sympathy on our side, due to projection or game playing on their side. We don't have to feel the same way - we only need to understand and signal then our understanding of how they feel. Respecting them as a different human being in a different and hard to grasp situation.

[Auspicious]

We don't have to feel the same way - we only need to understand and signal then our understanding of how they feel. Respecting them as a different human being in a different and hard to grasp situation.

  Great summary!

This also breaks the no-win trap. The other person wants us to feel exactly what they feel, but at the same time they may lash out with "you don't/can't understand!" The only way out is for us to really accept the truth that they are right, we don't fully "understand", but we can see how painful their feelings are for them.

(Not saying that they will like that position, but that we need to get there, to free ourselves from our own self-judgments)