COMMUNICATION: Validation - tools and techniques

[qkslvrgirl]

A lot of time has passed since July '10 when we were discussing this; however, I have found that everything UFN said is spot-on.

Egwene, you asked for some practical exercises you could practice.

The first thing I would recommend is to visualize yourself surrounded by bullet-proof barriers while you continue enjoying some activity safely inside. This is mental practice for you to recall in the heat of the moment that there is a "safe place" for you to go.

When the real need arises for you to leave an abuse situation, you will recognize it more quickly and make your escape.

My escapes have varied from just leaving and going for a drive or long walk (no cell phone answering), to taking a longer trip to stay away for a day or more. If you live in separate places already, this is very easy to go NC for a day or a week.

If you have a friend, maybe you can trade some housework or meal preparation in exchange for a couple nights on their sofa.

Just use your imagination and practice different options.

One thing I've learned it that my uBPDh is much more likely to respond and attempt to set things right if I do not initiate contact first once an exit or NC period is put into play.

 

[MoonWolf]

Okay -- Here is a tough one.

Over the last 6 or 7 months my husband has been using hate speech. One of the things that I loved about my husband when we first started to date was the fact that he hated bigotry in anyway. Then like a bombshell he started to use these words, and I asked him time and time again, not to use these words. Every time I do so, it's like it gives him permission to use them more.

I had told him that I didn't want these words to be around me. He then told me he couldn't be himself if he couldn't use these words. I told him that sometimes we can't say what we want.

So how are you supposed to validate his feelings without validating his behavior.

[Auspicious]

So how are you supposed to validate his feelings without validating his behavior.

"I can see why you'd want to say whatever you want. Still, I can't be around those words. When people use them, I leave the area and go do something else."

Form then on, if he uses those words, you leave the area. Leave the room, the house, whatever. Stay gone as long as you need to.

He's not going to like it. He doesn't have to like it. You just have to do it.

[MoonWolf]

That is what I do, but isn't that a form of invalidation we aren't validating him.

[Auspicious]

First of all, emotional validation is only one tool in the toolbox. There are times to use it, and there are times when a different tool is called for instead. There are also times to use it and use another tool too.

The existence of nails doesn't mean that nobody should have screwdrivers.

If someone is being abusive to you, leave the situation. That doesn't mean that "validation is useless"; it just means that there is a time and place for it, and that wasn't it.

Yes, leaving the area when you need to might result in him feeling abandoned. You can't let yourself be controlled by his fear. That doesn't help him, or you.

I still don't see were validating his feelings of hate speech will be helpful in any way shape or form.

It depends on what you mean.

No, I don't suggest validating the specific hateful feelings that he is expressing.

I do think you could, if you want to, validate his feeling of wanting to be able to say what he likes. To express himself. Don't you?  You wouldn't say the things that he does, but can't you at least appreciate the urge to just "say whatever you feel", in general? That doesn't mean you agree with what he's doing with that emotion.

"I can see why you'd want to say whatever you want. Still, I can't be around those words. When people use them, I leave the area and go do something else."

By validating emotion, you actually free yourself from having to argue or agree with it. Far from agreeing with it, you are simply relating to it in a different way entirely. Let's take a different example to illustrate:

"Wow, no wonder you're upset, if you think I'm cheating on you! I'm not, but wow, I can sure see why you're upset if you think I am!  I'd be upset if I believed that about you too."

You aren't agreeing with facts - or "facts" - you are hearing emotion.

[MoonWolf]

Yes, I know that validation is only one tool in the tool box. Yes, I know it's about validating emotion not facts.

As I said before, validation is about emotion not facts. My husband can't separate facts from emotions. He is unable to do that. If you validate his emotions you validate what he is doing (at least in his mind).  This doesn't happen all the time, but much of the time, he rides his emotions like a battle horse into battle. So when you validate his feelings it gives him permission to use the ax. For my Husband at times when he is heated already, and I walk into and start to validate, he no longer is looking for validation.

I am saying that validation is a useful tool, but might not be the only tool for every circumstance.

[Auspicious]

My husband can't separate facts from emotions. He is unable to do that. If you validate his emotions you validate what he is doing (at least in his mind).  

Well, we can't control what happens in their minds.

Emotional validation is at least as much for us as it is for them. It help us separate feelings and facts, and to separate their stuff from our stuff.

It's also a way to model that separation.

I am saying that validation is a useful tool, but might not be the only tool for every circumstance.

Absolutely   Of course it isn't.

[needbpdhelp]

I have been using validation my BPDw for years, and most of the time it helps.

However, a few of our really major issues have apparently only worsened, and in my opinion here is why. I feel the validation about her feelings being - a "reasonable possibility," "others would feel the same way," "there is a kernel of truth to what they are expressing," and "they have a legitimate right to feel the way they do" -  whether true or not, all too often reinforce their bad behavior and erroneous beliefs.

Many times our validation can even be interpreted as apologies.

Example - For years, when dysregulated, my wife  believed she had supported me financially from the beginning of our relationship, I had lied about having no money, and she put up with far more grief from me that I did from her.

I told her many times, these things were not true, she shouldn't stay married to me if she really believed them, and I didn't want to be married to her if she believed them - my emotional boundaries, and beliefs. Any accountant could prove her financial beliefs to be completely false and reversed. We could never discuss the subjects, but the next day or week later when I was her hero, I assumed this was just her dysregulation talking.

Now, I get the strong impression that these beliefs have become permanent.

Maybe the BPD paranoia is rubbing off on me, but it feels as if all the nice things I do and say now, are, in her mind, my way of trying to 'atone for my sins' so to speak - my way of apologizing for my past transgressions. Also her impression of herself seems to be that of a hard working, perfect wife and mother, who has to deal with...me.

Help? Suggestions? Ideas? Similar experiences - and do I have a 'valid' point - pun intended - about needing different Validation criteria for BPDs?

[AnitaL]

Interesting post.  I wonder about this too, especially the part about 'atoning for my sins' by validating the pwBPD's feelings and not arguing back.  In my situation, validation does seem to prevent escalation much of the time with my uBPDh, but one of his main arguments with me is that I "took him" away from the place he wants to live and that if we could only just move back there, he would be happy and fulfilled, etc.  Reminders (before I came across info on BPD) that he was miserable there too and that it won't solve any of his anger/guilt/regret issues always made things worse.  Now that I have started validating his feelings of hating the place we live and understanding how much he felt a connection to the old place, he rages much less, but it seems that he has taken the validation to mean that I am apologizing for the move (although those are not the words I use) and that I should therefore be responsible for planning our move back ASAP, which he truly believes will be the fix for his problems. 

So do we consider validation inappropriate when the pwBPD has a response that is out of proportion or a misunderstanding of what we are actually saying?  Do we just suck it up and let them assume we are apologizing even if we are not, if progress is (apparently) being made in lowering the dysregulation episodes?

[united for now]

Validation is a "huge" part of DBT. It is one of the most powerful things we can do to repair damaged trust and intimacy issues.

Yet it wasn't designed to correct twisted thinking. Nor will it magically get them to consider our views/beliefs/opinions. It won't change anyone's mind. A person who is mentally ill will have messed up thoughts. THey will make unreasonable demands.  In their perception, feelings equal facts.

Now for years she has felt like a victim. That you lied to her and that she financially supported you. For years you argued with her trying to prove her wrong.  Your arguments and facts and reasons and logic didn't change how she felt. Your defensiveness and explanations only pushed her away and created distance and distrust between the two of you. She didnt feel listened to or understood, and she never stopped feeling like a victim.

So now you are validating her emotions... validation will help her feel understood - it won't change her mind...

[needbpdhelp]

Validation is a "huge" part of DBT. It is one of the most powerful things we can do to repair damaged trust and intimacy issues.

I agree with this in principal, however after doing some research I find that I have been validating secondary emotions, which as Marsha Linehan says -

"If the emotional validation is used for secondary emotions, then I interpret this as not therapeutic, because you are “validating the invalid.”

You can read more about secondary emotions below in navy.

If this is correct, then the trick we all need to learn is how to tell the difference between primary and secondary emotions, and to, as Marsha Linehan says, not validate the invalid.

This was my original point in this thread. Patently ridiculous or delusional thinking should not be validated. Apparently this has been covered by the professionals, yet it hasn't filtered down to all of us laymen yet. It seems to me this distinction is extremely important for us all to understand if we are going to use validation for BPDs properly.

Persons with BPD have a lot of twisted erroneous thinking, but we shouldn't validate this twisted thinking, just because they belong to someone we love, or we will be validating the invalid.

We need to look for their primary emotions. In my wife's case it may be "God! I'm always broke, and I make more than my retired husband does, so I must be paying most of our expenses." Now, I could empathize with her being broke and maybe be successful talking her into some financial planning and counseling for us, to help save money. This would reveal the truth to her, from someone other than me.


Last week, I was reading a portion of Dr. Marsha Linehan’s book “Cognitive Behavior Treatment Of Borderline Personality Disorder” and stumbled upon a reference that I had never noticed before. It reads:

Emotional validation strategies contrast with approaches that focus on the overreactivity of emotions or the distorted basis of their generation. Thus, they are more like the approach of Greenberg and Safran (1987), who make a distinction between primary or “authentic” emotions and secondary of “learned” emotions. The latter are reactions to primary cognitive appraisals and emotional responses; they are the end products of chains of feelings and thoughts. Dysfunctional and maladaptive emotions, according to Greenberg and Safran, are usually secondary emotions that block the experience and expression of primary emotions. These authors go on to suggest that “all primary affective emotions provides adaptive motivational information to the organism” (1987, p. 176). The important point here is the suggestion that dysfunctional and maladaptive responses to events are often connected or interwoven with “authentic” or valid responses to these events. Finding and amplifying these primary responses constitute the essence of emotional validation. The honesty of the therapist in applying these strategies cannot be overstressed. If emotional validation strategies are used as change strategies – that is, if lip service is given to validation in order to simply to calm the patient down for the “real work” – the therapist can expect the therapy to backfire. Such honesty, in turn, depends on the therapist’s belief that there is a substantial validity to be found, and that searching for it is therapeutically useful.

This idea is an important one for loved ones of those with BPD because it touches on several points:

~ It acknowledges that emotional validation focuses on “normal” emotional reactions, not “the overreactivity of emotions or the distorted basis of their generation.” That is the way of emotional invalidation, i.e. “You’re overreacting to something trivial. Look at what really happened.” I see that expression from Non-BPs all the time.

~ It points out the differences between primary and secondary emotions. This distinction is extreme useful for Non-BPs. Why? Because most often the anger and rage are secondary emotions (not always) and that is typically what Nons focus on. If the emotional validation is used for secondary emotions, then I interpret this as not therapeutic, because you are “validating the invalid.”
    
~  Probing (gently and compassionately) for the primary emotions seems to be a more effective strategy and those are the emotions that can be validated effectively.
    
~  One has to approach emotional validation as a tool unto itself – without using it as a “change strategy.” That is, “it is ok to feel that, but you have to change the way you feel to be ‘normal’.” That is, bound to backfire.
    
~  If this distinction of primary and secondary emotions – the first being true and “authentic”, the second being dysfunctional and maladaptive – is applied to the concept of mentalization, then the idea within mentalization to use emotional validation to probe for further feelings begins to make more sense. One has to help the BP locate the primary emotion.

http://www.anythingtostopthepain.com/primary-secondary-emotions/

[united for now]

What you are discussing is some of the more detailed validation concepts. The E,F,G that follows after the A,B, C's are conquered 

There are some great books out there that cover this in depth and can help flesh out the subtleties that you are discussing. Much more than what can be covered in a workshop.

Essentially - Yes, we need to be aware that we are targeting the correct emotion to validate. We never validate the invalid translates to "don't tell them you understand why they just murdered someone", or "anyone would punch their boss in the face". Common sense does come into play here.

Validation doesn't mean that you never state how you feel on a topic, it just means that you work to understand the emotions your partner is expressing and chose a time when both of you are calm before you state your own truth. Too often as people first experiment with validation they add that dreaded "but" onto the statement, destroying any good will gained by trying to correct the pwBPD.

"yeah. It sucks being broke all the time, but if you would just learn to follow my detailed spending chart we wouldn't be in this mess"... destroys any possible chance that the pwBPD will see your point or agree, much less listen to anything further you have to say.

"Yeah. It sucks being broke all the time. I wonder what you/we can do to help plan better"... changes it from just pure validation into helping the pwBPD consider other options.

This is why we suggest asking questions and not making assumptions if you are confused or can't connect with what emotions your partner is feeling. Don't just fake it to shut them up. Ask questions so that you "can" understand. Learn about what it means to be BPD, how it impacts their feelings, thoughts, behaviors, actions, dysregulation, etc...develop empathy and compassion.

Validation is a skill that requires practice. It doesn't come naturally to most of us, since we are so focused on the logic and facts aspect, we totally miss the emotions driving the problems in the first place, primary or secondary...

Validation is also only "one" of the skills all of us need to get better at 

[jardin]

I think some of the confusion comes just from living in some of these environments...when WE are invalidated as much as we often are, up often becomes down, down often becomes up, and things get very confusing.  It's hard.  

I read somewhere that anger itself is generally considered to be a secondary emotion.  That people generally flow through hurt, worry, etc - realize how vulnerable those feelings make them - and then default to an expression of anger.  Considering most dysregulation 'looks' like anger and considering pwbpd don't have a strong enough sense of self to acknowledge - to themselves or others - they are hurt or worried or anything less then superhuman, I would imagine nons around here are seeing and responding to a lot of secondary emotions.  And I guess I can see how that would be invalidating to a pwbpd.  If what they are experiencing really deep down IS hurt, worry, pain, etc - and we are validating anger - they probably recognize at some level that we truly don't get it, them.  

Which is why we don't validate dysregulation...and why we take timeouts, I would imagine.  Why discussions about feelings work best when the stage is set for them to be able to talk about the primary feelings and not the anger (often directed at us).  

So she says - I have always supported you - in a hostile, accusatory way.  1.  Is she dysregulated?  If so, is this the best time to try to tease out what's really going on?  Or do you need to enforce your own - I won't stick around for abusive talks - boundary.  2.  Is there ANY truth to it which could in fact justify the anger?  Easy to validate truth and accept personal responsibility.  3.  If not, what could really be going on?  Is she worried about finances?  Sad because she is not getting the 'stuff' she wants?  Concerned about a family member finding a job?  I know for us - I don't even need to hit the nail on the head - if I ask and am wrong, she'll still feel safe enough to correct me - with the more primary emotion (which is about 90% of the time based in fear - becomes an easy assumption to make after awhile).  Then its easy to validate that.

(Also important to recognize that such an accusation could be her way of dealing with pain from something completely unrelated to you!  I know for S - when she's upset about something - she'll often find something to accuse me of so she can justify her anger.  This is why getting the heck out of dodge is so important in the moment - we can't sit around and take this stuff and still expect them to focus on the true issues.)

[iluminati]

I agree with UFN.  The key is to figure out where that belief is coming from.  This doesn't mean their conclusion is right.  It just allows you to hear out what they're saying and make your own decision on what to do next from there.

For example, my wife is regularly upset about money, saying that we're broke.  I asked her why she thinks that, and she says that we don't go out to eat and do various things on a regular basis.  When I asked why she wants to go out to eat and do stuff on the regular basis, she told me that the food comforts her and makes her feel good about herself, and that when we do stuff, she doesn't have to worry about what is on her mind and what to do with our daughter.  In turn, I found out that my wife relies on food to comfort herself because that's the one thing she could do for herself as a child.  I also found out that she's afraid of just being in the house all of the time because her mother never really paid her any mind, and that she was often housebound (save for school) for long stretches of her childhood.  In addition, she's deathly afraid of not knowing what to do with our daughter, since her mother did as little as possible for her.

Of course, I've cleaned up what was a roughly hour long conversation for the purpose of summarizing what happened.  However, the principle stands.  Notice how I went from constantly wanting to go out to issues with how my wife's mother treated her.  Knowing that, I can engage with the core emotions how I wish.  I can take my wife out to someplace she wants to go to.  I can not take her out and have her dysregulate while my daughter and I go to the playground.  I can make a turkey with cheddar sandwich.  Once you know what you're dealing with, you can operate as you wish.

Back to your wife, you need to start asking questions, figuring out what's behind her belief.  From my experience, it might have nothing to do with money.  I've learned that things have a funny way of coming out, if you just ask and listen.  It's easier said that done, but that's the core of validation.

[needbpdhelp]

I think I should have learned the whole alphabet before doing the validation with my wife.

As an engineering manager I used the ABCs a lot, but didn't even know about secondary emotions, and wasn't exposed to them at work.

I have read a lot of posts where the nons seem to be painted blacker by their pwBPD with time. I wonder if it is because of us being too understanding of the dysregulated abuse coming from the secondary emotions - 'validating the invalid.' - and reinforcing not only bad behavior, but black thinking about us in general.

I imagine this could with time cause secondary emotions to become primary ones.

[united for now]

A person who is highly sensitive, extremely emotional, very reactive, and with severe shame issues  will most likely NOT express their primary emotions clearly. They will go straight to secondary emotions, since they feel easier to express. Over time, the pwBPD has gotten better responses from displaying their secondary emotions, so the primary ones of fear, worry, sadness will get buried under the anger.

Their defenses developed to hide their primary emotions, that is what all the projection, blame, black and white thinking, push/pull, denial, distorted thinking stems from...an inability to feel or connect or hold onto primary emotions.

In “Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder” by Valier Porr,  MA, some other useful considerations.

Misconceptions around validation:

•   Validation is not the same as understanding. You don’t need to understand “why” a person feels as they do. You just need to accept their emotions.

•   Validations is not the same as loving someone. Love isn’t enough in this case. People need to feel listened to and to have their feelings accepted.

•   Validation is not a synonym for praise. Praise is a form of judgment that something is good or right, highlighting that the opposite could also be true, that the pwBPD is bad or wrong.

•   Validation is not the same as being proud of someone. Being proud can also be a judgment, implying that a pwBPD needs our approval.

•   Validations does not mean that you approve or disapprove of the persons feelings. There is no right or wrong when it comes to feelings.

Validation “Do Nots”

•   Do not criticize, judge or blame
•   Do not be distracted – focus
•   Do not pick the wrong time to have a sensitive discussion
•   Do not be willful or controlling
•   Do not try to solve or fix your loved ones problems
•   Do not jump into the problem pool
•   Do not respond with logic
•   Do not respond with anger
•   Do not personalize
•   Do not focus on “being right”
•   Do not validate the invalid

[Stickingwithit]

Level 6 - Radical Genuineness
The key to all validation is to be genuine.

This is the one I have the hardest time with.  I don't always "feel" genuine in my validation, because quite honestly, I mostly feel "obligated" to validate rather than truly "wanting" as a desire of my own heart, to validate.  

So I get stuck right here.  

And because I feel obligated to validate, my validation does not feel genuine to my SO, she knows it, I know it.  

So the best thing I can do at the moment rather than "faking it" is to just not really say much.  I do that first step over and over, listening, paying attention, nodding, occasionally asking a question but that's it.  So because I lack a response much further than that and even if I had one it's not genuine in nature, I'm blamed for being cold and lacking in compassion and kindness (which, if you told me to look at the situation and find the kernel of truth, there you have it, it's probably true that I do come across as cold, lacking compassionate, and unkind.)  I just don't know how to change that because really, I'm not a cold or uncaring person.

STUCK right there...

but still Sticking with It

SWI

[artman.1]

UFN,
     This one was good for my collection of posts that I want to come back to over and over.  WOW!  I have been working on my validation skills very hard lately.  I believe one of my best attributes in this area is empathy.  Once, I took an empathy test and scored in the highest levels.  Since I now realize this may help a lot with my validation, I will have to pay special attention to working with that while validating.  In the past six months, after learning about codependence (Me), and BPD (Her), I have been working on all these skills.  The RS between my UBPDW and I has improved and I can see a much better future ahead.  I have been cooking the eavening meal for several years, and experienced her very critical behavior at very minor issues with the food.  this has even resulted in dysregulations.  I have learned to validate her cancerns without taking offense, and have responded often as to how much I enjoy our sharing a meal I had such pleasure fixing.  This has tremendously helped our daily relationship.  Although, it is very hard to find something wrong with a Cedar Plank Salmon Fillet BBQ'd to perfection, with grilled Zuchini with all the grill marks.  One real benefit of my cooking the meal, is I can make it genuinly healthy, and low in carbs, and calories.  This is helping each of our health.  Now that gives me a tremendous validation for myself, when I realize the good healthy results.  I have been rewarded with seeing her losing a little weight.  This is the best way to lose as well, slow but sure over an extended time, as a result of changing eating habits.

Sounds good anyway!

Art

[kristy1981]

SWI-- I am in the same boat... sometimes it is almost impossible to truly validate because I feel so differently about a particular situation than he does.  In those instances it is very clear to both of us that I think he is nuts... and do come off as cold/mean/not caring.  He tells me I have no empathy.. I do it's just sometimes he's so far off his rocker that it is hard to empathize.. ugh!  Something I do need to get better at... afterall.. this is what he feels... as much as he doesn't want to feel a certain way.. he does feel that way.. and he needs validation of some sort.  Just can't give different perspectives as a means to validate... even if he doesn't want to feel a certain way about whatever the situation might be...

does this make any sense?  I feel like I'm falling off MY rocker as I type this   

[iluminati]

I understand how hard it is to emphasize.  After all, a lot of stuff they aren't feeling heard about is so way out there that it's hard to connect to.  The key thing is to ask a lot of questions.  Get them to talk to you like you're stupid.  In my experience, once you get them to go back through all the logical leaps they made to get dysregulated, it becomes a lot easier to emphasize.  In my experience, you'd be surprised as to the source of the issues that made them upset in the first place.  Also, you'll find that these issues have nothing to do with you. 

From there, once you know the drill and put yourself in their shoes, you can emphasize.  I know in my wife's case, knowing how she grew up and the issues she had to deal with makes it a lot easier to validate when she gets dysregulated about something.  At least I know the core issues.  The key is to do the hard work of hacking through those weeds.