Shocking suggestion from T

[Think About It...]

So, Jackal called K at work last weekend.  Since then K has wanted to start speaking to Jackal again.  We suggested she go see her T to work things through before contacting Jackal.  Yesterday K came home from T appt. and said that she and T decided to let Jackal have K's cell phone number!

They claim this will provide "direct" contact between the two of them and K will not feel like she's keeping a secret (her cell number) from Jackal.   WHAT?

Okay, hubby and I are NOT happy at all about this.  Did I miss something?  This woman is a CHILD ABUSER!  To allow direct 27/7 access to a child she abused and nearly killed with her slashing words and actions, after nearly a year of no contact?  WTH   

Here's what I wrote to the T this morning:

Hi T,
Kendyl talked to Hubby and me last night about contact with Jackal.  We would like to set up a phone appointment, if possible to discuss this further.

We have strong objections to Jackal having her cell phone number.  We'd feel much more comfortable with Kendyl dipping her toe in the water first with controlled contact on her terms.  We understand her desire to see how she's doing, and that can happen by calling from our home or emailing her.  The cell phone gives Jackal too much control to 'pop-up' randomly at any time, no matter what Kendyl is doing. 

Remember the late night drunk cell phone calls to Kendyl on school nights?  Kendyl has a rule to shut off her cell phone at 9pm now, and she doesn't comply.  She forgets.  We don't see that changing. 

We feel it's way too soon for uncontrolled access to Kendyl.  As far as we know Jackal is still drinking heavily.  At least she pauses before calling our home and raging.  That has been a saving grace, as she's uncomfortable calling our home.  It's the only thing keeping her from f-ing with K randomly.  She won't pause to call K's cell.  We are extremely uncomfortable with the cell contact.

Kendyl told us last night that she 'just remembered' that she called Jackal back from her cell phone right after she called her at work.  So, at this point Jackal can call her anytime.  Apparently she hasn't called her back yet.  We're thinking about changing her cell number now.  Kendyl argues she wants no secrets from Jackal so she doesn't want to hide her number from her.  We disagree and think there are things she doesn't have to share with a woman who has abused her. 

Jackal is not her mom anymore.  She is a child abuser.  We recognize she is still her mother.  We want to protect Kendyl from her as much as we can in the next two years as she gets practice communicating with her.  We want her to be ready to handle Jackal when she's in college.  But how about baby steps?  This feels like a huge plunge into potential disaster. 

Kendyl is stronger now and can set boundaries, but with cell phone access Jackal will knock them down like a bull going through a spider web.  For example:  Last night K said she would tell Jackal she could only call her from 4-7.  I said, "What if she calls you on your lunch hour?"  She answered, "If I feel like talking, I'll answer."  That affirmed that she's not understanding the boundaries thing.  T, we are not sure she's ready.  She has not faced her yet in person, just in a letter.  This is much harder than she's making it out to be. 

So, if you'd like to talk about this further, we will be home all week after 6. Hubby might be home early tonight, around 5, probably.  Maybe we could talk before the debates? 

Thanks for listening.  Sorry so long.

Madre & Hubby

What do you guys think?  I'm shocked.  I'm scared.  I guess there was a 10 month calm before this storm.  It was a nice 10 months.  Too good to be true, I guess.

[Over The Drama]

So, Jackal called K at work last weekend.  Since then K has wanted to start speaking to Jackal again.  We suggested she go see her T to work things through before contacting Jackal.  Yesterday K came home from T appt. and said that she and T decided to let Jackal have K's cell phone number!

They claim this will provide "direct" contact between the two of them and K will not feel like she's keeping a secret (her cell number) from Jackal.   WHAT?

Okay, hubby and I are NOT happy at all about this.  Did I miss something?  This woman is a CHILD ABUSER!  To allow direct 27/7 access to a child she abused and nearly killed with her slashing words and actions, after nearly a year of no contact?  WTH   

Here's what I wrote to the T this morning:

Hi T,
Kendyl talked to Hubby and me last night about contact with Jackal.  We would like to set up a phone appointment, if possible to discuss this further.

We have strong objections to Jackal having her cell phone number.  We'd feel much more comfortable with Kendyl dipping her toe in the water first with controlled contact on her terms.  We understand her desire to see how she's doing, and that can happen by calling from our home or emailing her.  The cell phone gives Jackal too much control to 'pop-up' randomly at any time, no matter what Kendyl is doing. 

Remember the late night drunk cell phone calls to Kendyl on school nights?  Kendyl has a rule to shut off her cell phone at 9pm now, and she doesn't comply.  She forgets.  We don't see that changing. 

We feel it's way too soon for uncontrolled access to Kendyl.  As far as we know Jackal is still drinking heavily.  At least she pauses before calling our home and raging.  That has been a saving grace, as she's uncomfortable calling our home.  It's the only thing keeping her from f-ing with K randomly.  She won't pause to call K's cell.  We are extremely uncomfortable with the cell contact.

Kendyl told us last night that she 'just remembered' that she called Jackal back from her cell phone right after she called her at work.  So, at this point Jackal can call her anytime.  Apparently she hasn't called her back yet.  We're thinking about changing her cell number now.  Kendyl argues she wants no secrets from Jackal so she doesn't want to hide her number from her.  We disagree and think there are things she doesn't have to share with a woman who has abused her. 

Jackal is not her mom anymore.  She is a child abuser.  We recognize she is still her mother.  We want to protect Kendyl from her as much as we can in the next two years as she gets practice communicating with her.  We want her to be ready to handle Jackal when she's in college.  But how about baby steps?  This feels like a huge plunge into potential disaster. 

Kendyl is stronger now and can set boundaries, but with cell phone access Jackal will knock them down like a bull going through a spider web.  For example:  Last night K said she would tell Jackal she could only call her from 4-7.  I said, "What if she calls you on your lunch hour?"  She answered, "If I feel like talking, I'll answer."  That affirmed that she's not understanding the boundaries thing.  T, we are not sure she's ready.  She has not faced her yet in person, just in a letter.  This is much harder than she's making it out to be. 

So, if you'd like to talk about this further, we will be home all week after 6. Hubby might be home early tonight, around 5, probably.  Maybe we could talk before the debates? 

Thanks for listening.  Sorry so long.

Madre & Hubby

What do you guys think?  I'm shocked.  I'm scared.  I guess there was a 10 month calm before this storm.  It was a nice 10 months.  Too good to be true, I guess.

[delilahjones]

 Yesterday K came home from T appt. and said that she and T decided to let Jackal have K's cell phone number!

They claim this will provide "direct" contact between the two of them and K will not feel like she's keeping a secret (her cell number) from Jackal.   WHAT?

Oh, definitely--I STRONGLY disagree with this move. 

go get the restraining order.  You are still the parent.

[sonnyboy]

I am so sorry, Madre. 

The therapist doesn't get it and is making matters worse.

Maybe Kendyl needs to discover what boundaries work for her on her own?  I'm not suggesting that she go and live with the creature, but perhaps this is a lesson she needs to figure out herself?

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[Over The Drama]

The restraining order is out of the question if K wants to talk to her. 
K wants Jackal to have her cell phone.  She talked the T into this decision.  That's the real problem here.  She wants to pick up her phone and check on the Jackal when she wants to.  I said she needs to *67 first so she doesn't see her number if she wants to do that.  I don't want this monster calling her at any random moment to ruin her day. 

I'll take away her phone before that happens.  I'm serious about this.

[Skip]

That's the real problem here.  She wants to pick up her phone and check on the Jackal when she wants to... I'll take away her phone before that happens.  I'm serious about this.

It's very possible, with custodial responsibilities lifted, the biomom will be kind to Kendyl.  As you know,  that's easy, and it happens.  Kendyl would be getting the validation from her biological mother that she was unable to get before - that could be pretty healing - certainly compelling to Kendyl.  This could develop where biomom is nice to Kendyl and they develop a different mother daughter relationship. 

Questions I would ask the T is "can you stop that without doing serious damage to your relationship with Kendyl?"  "What is in her best interest?"

You will likely have to deal with the biomom at some level.  She and kendyl may want to visit at some point. Now that you have gained custody, should you try to lesson the tensions with biomom... maybe even be proactive (and more in control). 

You rescued her from a difficult situation and clearly she loves you for it... and for having her happiness and safety as a priority.

I can imagine, after all you have been through, this is very hard to read.  I suggest it with the best of intentions.    Kids always want the fight to go away... and everyone to be happy.

Skippy

[Over The Drama]

It's very possible, with custodial responsibilities lifted, the biomom will be kind to Kendyl.  As you know,  that's easy, and it happens.  Kendyl would be getting the validation from her biological mother that she was unable to get before - that could be pretty healing - certainly compelling to Kendyl.  This could develop where biomom is nice to Kendyl and they develop a different mother daughter relationship.

And monkeys might fly out of my butt.

Questions I would ask the T is "can you stop that without doing serious damage to your relationship with Kendyl?"  "What is in her best interest?"

I'm worried about my relationship with Kendyl now.  If she sees us as her security guards and not letting her grow, it'll piss her off.  I already sense that.  Hubby and I are walking a fine line here.

You will likely have to deal with the biomom at some level.  She and kendyl may want to visit at some point. Now that you have gained custody, should you try to lesson the tensions with biomom... maybe even be proactive (and more in control).

I don't know how I could decrease tensions.  She's crazy.  If Kendyl wants to visit we'll fight it.  She is a child abuser.  Would I let her visit a man that raped her?  HELL NO!  Will I allow her to visit Jackal?  Truthfully, I'm not ready to face that.  We plucked her out of a very abusive, unhealthy situation.  Each and every time Jackal touches Kendyl, she contaminates her.  I'm not sure she's truly ready to resist the contamination.  I'm ready for baby steps.  Not ready for this. 

Please G-d... two more years of peace, and time to let Kendyl heal and deal.

[Oy-vey!]

Time to re-engage your attorney or at least another therapist.  This is bizarre that the T has made this outrageous suggestion - and allowed K to talk T into it.  (I find THAT really weird.)

Can you set up some guidelines with K pertaining to contact with her mother (sorry) Jackal with ground rules that are written in stone?  Such as, no calls after 9pm, no calls during work, no meetings with Jackal (ever).  and the consequences will be immediate cut-off from Jackal along with a restraining order. This puts K in the driver's seat, knowing that there are rules to be followed (just like driving a real car).

What a horrid situation - all because of ONE PHONE CALL FROM JACKAL.  Does T not get this?

[Over The Drama]

You know the saying, "the best way to predict the future is to look at the past"? 

That is what is making me think that 24/7 access to Kendyl is a very, very bad idea.  Visitation is a bad idea. 

Looking at my daughter's best interests is vital.  I think she shines during NC spells.  In LC spells K needs to have control of contact.  When Jackal talks to her she regresses and self-harms.  She needs to have a break from that when needed. 

I'm scared for my daughter.  Maybe I'm not thinking rationally... but I think I am.  Definitely I'm in a place of intense fear.

[Oy-vey!]

 

[Over The Drama]

Thanks for the validation, Oy~
After reading what Skip said I wondered if DH and I are being too over-protective.  It's hard when you're in it and emotional and fearful.

Last night we set up some guidelines.  Mainly, no cell phone calls, only home phone between 6 and 8 p.m.  emails, fine.  We also told her that we check her cell phone bill and if we see a call from Jackal on it, we'll change the number right away.  She didn't like this one bit, and only then did she tell us that she already called her from her cell and she already has it.  She acted like she just remembered that happened.   :  I like your idea about writing the rules down and presenting them to both K and her T.  Maybe we should also email Jackal with these guidelines and put her on notice that if she violates these guidelines there will be immediate legal action taken.

[Skip]

Sorry - didn't mean to alarm you.
 
[man hug]

Guidelines are a good idea - if it was me, I would talk to her about the objectives (as she sees them and as I see them) and then let her make some suggestions - let her feel heard and part of it - and try to incorporate as much of her ideas in the guidelines as I can.

This might help prevent a situation where biomom/kendyl team on one side of this issue and madra/padre are on the other.

Skippy

[Gagrl]

Oh, Lord...this entire situation is why I say "Just when you least expect it [from the BPD] -- expect it."

I see the primary issue here as helping K understand and set boundaries and then react when those boundaries are crossed.  I don't see the T getting this.

[Over The Drama]

Thanks for the man hug, Skippy!

When we talked to Kendyl last night she had her arms crossed in a defensive pose when we said we don't like the idea of Jackal having her cell phone #.  We asked her what she would like to get out of contact and here's the highlights of what she wants:

1.  To set boundaries with Jackal ie:  You will call me Kendyl (not K's former name) and I will call you C-- (Jackal's middle name that she goes by).
2.  She wants to set times that Jackal can contact her and practice enforcing boundaries.
3.  She wants the ability to have light hearted conversations and keep things superficial
4.  She wants to be able to pick up her phone any time, any day to see how Jackal is doing.

Here's what hubby and I talked about last night for guidelines:

1.  She can call Jackal from her cell phone any time she wants to (as long as it's not during school or after 9:00 p.m.) but if the call is made on her cell she must block the number first with *67.

2.  If we see Jackal calling in on her cell phone we will immediately change the cell number so it's important to remember *67.

3.  Jackal can call our home but not after 8:00 p.m. when her brothers are asleep.
4.  Jackal can email her all she wants. 
5.  Do not accept calls from Jackal at work
6.  She is not to meet up with Jackal (we haven't said this yet...but we need to)

Is that pretty good?  Is that the objectives you are talking about Skip?  Any other ideas to outline?

[Oy-vey!]

What happens if Jackal does not abide by what K wants?  Calling her by her name, etc.?  Is K prepared to put THOSE consequences into effect or will she just let it all slide?  That's where the lesson really needs to be enforced - is with K's self-imposed boundaries toward Jackal.  Otherwise you & H are the ones imposing the consequences upon Kendyl.

[Fabelli]

I have just a few comments:

#1 - trying to negotiate "boundaries with Kendyl about Jackal" sounds good in theory, but in reality is doomed to fail. Kendyl WANTS to talk to her. This means that for some reason she feels the NEED to talk to her, which for some unknown reason, the T supports. So, if you "enforce" boundaries here, you are playing into Jackal's hand by appearing controlling, overbearing etc. Do you really want her to feel like she has to lie to you about when she heard from Jackal last?

#2 - Be prepared for a backslide in the progress Kendyl made without Jackal in her life, while the impact of the reappearance of Jackal in Kendyl's life shakes itself out.

#3 - Clarify the T's role. She probably has a different view of her role in Kendyl's life than you do. In fact, I can almost guarantee this. I personally got blindsided by my daughter's T that turned out to be nothing more than a negative advocate for my ex.

#4 - Make sure that you don't let your issues cloud your judgement. I know you are a good person and that jackal is a poisonous abuser, and it is very upsetting to hear that Kendyl wants to talk to her. 

Given that she is a young woman now, if you block this you will be seen as the "bad guy" here. You might avoid the issue for a few more years, but it will come up again eventually for sure. If you facilitate it, as hard as it is, and ensure that she has plenty of love and support around her, you get to pick up the pieces for her and be there for her. Again. And maybe again a few years from now.

At some point, you don't get to tell her whether she gets to have a relationship with ber bio-mom anymore.

It totally sucks and I'm sorry. Just don't destroy what is good in your relationship trying to cling to a position that you can't defend anyway.

Fab

[Over The Drama]

I hear you, Oy-Vey!
I feel like the momster police here.  We don't want to get K into trouble if she doesn't stand up to momster. 

In the past she has not verbally stood up to Jackal.  She just listened, cried, felt guilt and acted out with self-harm.  She has only stood up to her in letter form.  Now she's talking to us like she wants a friendship with this woman, to try to keep it light and airy... and to set boundaries.  Maybe when Jackal tromps through a boundary K will verbally stand up to her and that'll feel powerful for her.  That's the best we can all hope for. 

But, if she fails to stand up to this woman it'll be extremely ugly and we'll be there to pick up the pieces.  Again.

Meanwhile I am the cell phone police.  And in K's eyes, her dad and I have slammed a door shut to her mother. 

[Oy-vey!]

You know that K knows her mother is poison, but have you and H talked with K in a way that she arrives at the same place without the two of you pushing her (maybe you already have done it).

Do the leading questions thing:  what happened last time?  how do you feel when?  (sort of like playing T, but with your goal of getting K to get to the "she is poison" goal without pushing her too hard).

I hope the T wakes up and sees the fire.

[Over The Drama]

You guys have great suggestions.

Fabelli, I agree with your four points.  I feel like point #1 is dead on, and that's why I feel this anxiety.  It feels doomed to fail.  Maybe with dialogue and leading questions like Oy suggests K can arrive at the same place we are. 

If Kendyl doesn't want Jackal to know her cell number, or to call her on it there would be very little issue here.  But the fact is, now she wants Jackal to have that direct access.  Maybe she'll re-think the logic after a couple of rages and intrusions happen. 

I just don't want her to fall apart again.

Hubby and I will follow your suggestions.  I feel I've already said too much to K, and not let her feel in control of the situation.  Last night when I asked her why she wants Jackal to know her cell number she said, "She is my mother and I don't want to keep a secret from her."  I said, "She is a child abuser.  A child abuser, and she can now hurt you again at any given moment."  I saw tears well up in her eyes but she held them back.  She replied, "I'm strong enough not to let her now." 

So, by hubby and me putting our feet down on the cell phone issue she has taken a defensive stance and wants nothing more than Jackal to have direct access to her.  Plus, Fabelli, to be totally honest when she called Jackal her mother it hurt my feelings and I fired back that she's not a mother, but a child abuser.  I don't see that woman as a mother.  I see her as an egg donor, and the worst kind of child abuser.  I let my feelings color the conversation.  I have to watch that, as it could hurt her more.

It has backfired already.  You are so right.  This blows.

[Oy-vey!]

Madre - you are one excellent mother.

Just listen to K about how she feels about the situation.  Listen to what she wants, don't object, don't contradict her, don't say she's wrong.  Just keep repeating what she says "you feel sorry for her" "you don't want to hurt her feelings" "you are sad that she is not in your life anymore"

My guess, she just wants you or H to listen without judging.  Give it a try.  You have nothing to lose.

[Matt]

Lots of good thoughts here, and I've never been through this, so I don't have experience to draw on.

But just a brainstorm:  Why not sit down with K, your husband, and the therapist, and talk it through together - let the therapist (if she has the skill) help you and K communicate your points of view - and see if you can all reach a solid agreement.  You can make it clear that, as the parents, you and your husband have the right to make this decision, but also that you realize K is making a lot of her own decisions now and that is healthy, and you want her input and want her to understand where you are both coming from.

Not sure where that might lead, but it seems your relationship with K is at issue here, and that's as important as the cell phone issue, if not more so.  So ideally you will have a win/win - you and K and her dad will all buy in to the plan and it won't seem forced because she'll understand why you're doing what you're doing.  And maybe the T will get with the program too.  But you might need to be a little flexible so it's everybody's plan not just yours.

Just a thought...I'd hate to see this issue harm your relationship with your daughter at this critical time.

Best wishes,

Matt