tried validation

[Think About It...]

I hear you RFC!

I used the validation approach with my uBPDh when he started his FOG attempt yesterday. He started holding out the Guilt and Obligation "hoops" for me to jump through; but since I have learned that this happens because he is reacting to  a trigger that has little if anything to do with me, I chose to try the validation approach.



Me: Dear H, I am fairly certain that you feel angry and disappointed with me for some specific reason that has little or nothing to do with not bringing you lunch yesterday.
What is it that is really bothering you?

We need to talk about things, not just "get angry" and not discuss whatever it is. I plan on walking at ... again this evening. Do you want to go with me and we can talk and walk?

uBPDh: No. I have made other plans for after work.

Me: That's okay. I hope you know you can call me and I will be glad to talk with you or come and see you.

As it stands right now, you have made it clear that you are angry at me over something, but you do not want to see me or discuss it with me.

That is your right. You can choose to have time apart from me to think about things. We can talk when you are ready. [/color]
[/u]

e-mail can be such an impersonal way to comm :P  It lacks so much of the meaning that is conveyed with our voices and body/facial language. So, when using it, you have to be even more careful that your message comes across as pure and intentional. As you write you hear your voice in your head, and you get the implications, but when someone else reads the words, they are missing that element.

I underlined and changed to green the words above because I don't think that they were sending the message you think they were. From the perspective of a BPD, they could be seen as very invalidating and accusatory, raising his defenses instead of lowering them.

What if you would have left them out completely? Read it without them in there, and then look at the tone and emotions they express. What's left is very validating and very supportive. I bet you would have gotten a much better response just saying those words, instead of adding all the rest.

What do you think, rereading them now?

[united for now]

I hear you RFC!

I used the validation approach with my uBPDh when he started his FOG attempt yesterday. He started holding out the Guilt and Obligation "hoops" for me to jump through; but since I have learned that this happens because he is reacting to  a trigger that has little if anything to do with me, I chose to try the validation approach.



Me: Dear H, I am fairly certain that you feel angry and disappointed with me for some specific reason that has little or nothing to do with not bringing you lunch yesterday.
What is it that is really bothering you?

We need to talk about things, not just "get angry" and not discuss whatever it is. I plan on walking at ... again this evening. Do you want to go with me and we can talk and walk?

uBPDh: No. I have made other plans for after work.

Me: That's okay. I hope you know you can call me and I will be glad to talk with you or come and see you.

As it stands right now, you have made it clear that you are angry at me over something, but you do not want to see me or discuss it with me.

That is your right. You can choose to have time apart from me to think about things. We can talk when you are ready. [/color]
[/u]

e-mail can be such an impersonal way to comm :P  It lacks so much of the meaning that is conveyed with our voices and body/facial language. So, when using it, you have to be even more careful that your message comes across as pure and intentional. As you write you hear your voice in your head, and you get the implications, but when someone else reads the words, they are missing that element.

I underlined and changed to green the words above because I don't think that they were sending the message you think they were. From the perspective of a BPD, they could be seen as very invalidating and accusatory, raising his defenses instead of lowering them.

What if you would have left them out completely? Read it without them in there, and then look at the tone and emotions they express. What's left is very validating and very supportive. I bet you would have gotten a much better response just saying those words, instead of adding all the rest.

What do you think, rereading them now?

[qkslvrgirl]

Yes, UNF, I appreciate your editing - and it does sound validating without the negative "seasoning". I will be more aware next time, now that I have a clear example to follow.

Fortunately my uBPDh wrote to me again (we live in separate houses) in the middle of the night to complain of being alone and miserable. I send a response back this morning to suggest I stay at his place tonight.

You said in earlier post: They speak from emotions (emotional mind) - we counter them with facts (reasonable mind). They don't hear our facts, just that we aren't agreeing with their emotions, which makes them even more upset that they aren't being listened to; so they twist and blame some more, which we again try to counter with explanations, facts, justifications (reasonable mind) and the dance continues on.

The way to break this pattern is to recognize it first, and then learn to comm with them using the same techniques (emotions) to bring their levels down to a calmer state where they can actually hear our message. You accomplish this with validation.

In keeping with the theme of this thread, BPD vs Normal Communications, what approach do you recommend when we get back together and he begins to address the real issue that has triggered him - the financial mess he got himself into and thinks / hopes I will bail him out on?

My guess is he will try to make me feel Obligated to help (if I really cared) or Guilty because a "good wife" would want to help. I am in no mood to play games with him; so I need to know how to respond in a validating manner while still protecting my boundaries.

Let me clarify two points: First, he did something similar last year and I went to great inconvenience and stress to help him out by borrowing against my IRA. I realize this set a precidence which I regret. Secondly, he did not discuss this decision with me before placing the order; which I would have advised him to cut in half - had he sought my opinion.

This is serious because he could possibly go to jail for writing a bad check -  which is something he may have to face as a logical consequence of a lifetime of poor (non-existant) money management.

[dados76]

I think too that the only things a person with borderline would see are the green words and any validation would be ignored because of that.
it can be really hard to not add in reasons and justifications but sometimes trying to talk about feelings can be like explaining the sun to a little kid. Better off to keep it simple and start from what they understand.

[Bon Dobbs]

That has not been my experience of people with BPD - and I have 2 of them in my household. If you practice validation and do it honestly, a person with BPD will hear you and it helps them self-soothe.

[dados76]

My point comes from that I know pretty quick when validation didn't work because whatever came out that wasn't validating comes back quick. I do think real validation works very well no argument. When it backfires it shows.

[Steph]

 Sometimes, our attempts at validating arent perfect, or they arent heard, etc. Dados..I know what you mean. You get that moment of silence, the downcast eyes,, etc..and at those times, Ill say something like " May I rewind? I am trying..I probably said it weird."

 No one can do it correctly all of the time. Once trust is re-established, tho, its easier when those mistakes happen. With trust, they know we are trying, they are trying, that love is present and that no one meant to hurt the other person..even tho you did accidentally. An apology, and asking for a chance to try to say it differently can really make a huge difference. Has this been your experience, as well?

Steph

[Bon Dobbs]

Validation is a complex and non-intuitive skill that requires practice and a different attitude than the "normal" inter-relationship attitude. In reviewing your words I saw something that IMO derails your validation attempt. Let me explain. When you said this:

"Me: Dear H, I am fairly certain that you feel angry and disappointed with me for some specific reason that has little or nothing to do with not bringing you lunch yesterday.
What is it that is really bothering you?"

There are several problems with this approach.  At the core of that attitude is the idea that whatever emotion the BP is feeling - those emotions are NOT ABOUT YOU. The real problem is, for the most part, not the "regular" problem in life - it's that the BP is emotionally dysregulated. That means it is the anger or disappointment that is the real problem and, if they can get beyond the emotion and "back to baseline" THEN a rational conversation can take place. While a BP (or anyone for that matter) is in the grips of emotion, they will ignore anything that doesn't feed that emotion as not true. That is the natural state of emotion-based thinking.

The problem I see in your statement is two-fold. First, you make the emotion about you: "you feel angry and disappointed with me." Effective validation is never about you, it's always about how he feels. Second, you make a "leading" statement at the end.

I suspect that if you with honesty said something like "Dear H, I can see that you are angry and disappointed. What happened to make you feel this way?" It would have been much more effective.  Like I said, effective validation requires knowledge of emotional dynamics and practice, practice, practice.

Kindest regards,

Bon

[united for now]

Have you had a chance to look over the ones we have here in our workshops?

What is invalidation, why it's important, and how to recognize it http://BPDfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=81442.0

what and how to validate http://BPDfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=81610.0

the power of 3 http://BPDfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=81610.0

Trying to help with understanding what it means to validate and how to do it properly is a difficult thing for some people to get. It can be very powerful stuff and will make a huge difference in whether or not your loved one sees you as their partner or as their enemy. It can breed respect and understanding. To get to that point, you need to really do some empathetic listening and to practice validation in all aspects of your life.

[Steph]

 it was a struggle for me to get it at the beginning...then, something just happened and the light dawned.

I think that I started seeing that I had to take ME out of it. Its absolutely about the other person. We cannot assume to know if we did something, what we said, if we are, indeed, involved, or what happened. We likely triggered, but we cannot know what we triggered.

 Our workshops are really, really good resources on validation. It takes time and practice to get it. Try hard to remember not to interpret what you see/hear/feel. Statements from you like " I dont understand what you mean." " Sorry, I am confused..could you clarify?" " Please help me..I am not understanding what it is you are trying to tell me" all helps YOU to focus in on your partner, and what they want to say. We are often very off on what is really bugging them. Letting them know we want to know what they are trying to say, instead of us interpreting and translating and making assumptions really makes for a MUCH more effective and easier dynamic!

Steph

[united for now]

 Our goals are to understand our loved one and their struggles, and then to make changes in the way we respond so that we can stop making thing worse and begin to make them better. Some of our members are further along in this process, but we always learn from each other.

We very much wish to hear what you have to say. The more info and knowledge we can gain, the stronger our members will become  8) I'm also glad that you took the time to look over our own stuff.

[Hannahbanana]

I have really been trying the validation technique all week now and i must admit it seems to be having a positive effect.  Although i do find it difficult consistancy wise, when i put in the effort and try to stick to validating and avoiding just biting back and defending myself, so far, it seems to be working.  I tried it when we met on Saturday and 3 times when he almost appeared to be getting a little heated, i managed to pull him out of it relatively easily just by being understanding and accepting and adjusting my own behaviour.

I'm going to continue along this road and see how it goes.

[Steph]

 Hanna,
  I am happy that you made an inroad there!

How was it, for you?

Steph

[Hannahbanana]

Hanna,
  I am happy that you made an inroad there!

How was it, for you?

Steph

Hi Steph,

I stil didn't get the answers i wanted regarding our relationship, but at least he apologised about everything he had said and done over the past few months, and he also actually finally admitted that we do have some form of relationship (he kept denying this and saying we were not in one of any kind)  He also admitted that he can see a pattern with his relationships now and is worried about messing up his whole relationship life iforever, if he does not sort his issues.  I finally feel like i could talk and keep him from going off on one and also managed to make him understand that he talks at me and not to me (he admits a lot of people say this to him)  He also told me that what happens to him is, he rages, shouts SI's or whatever his choice of external anger is, then for weeks he feels ashamed and abnormal compared to friends etc and finds it very difficult to feel normal and lovable while he feels this ashamed, so he just wants everyone associated with what he done away from him.

I told him that i was using a validation method of communicating with him and he asked me to explain, i did and he just frowned at me, so i replied, "i understand you're confused by this, i am too, but i find it is a lovely way to communicate with everyone and lets see if it helps us a little"  I couldn't believe the difference in him.  However, baby steps, it's early days yet

So thank you to everyone on the site who brought this method to my knowledge.