I invited her for Thanksgiving.

[Think About It...]

I see that you are trying to be comforting to the children and that is a great thing to do for a father. Not many dad will step up to that role now days. Just know that you still are in control and make it as none dramatic for the kids as possible. That is what I try to do in social situations that my husband is a part of. Keep things calm for the kids.

[Trulovelost]

I see that you are trying to be comforting to the children and that is a great thing to do for a father. Not many dad will step up to that role now days. Just know that you still are in control and make it as none dramatic for the kids as possible. That is what I try to do in social situations that my husband is a part of. Keep things calm for the kids.

[ForeverDad]

As for where the kids will wake up, that's spelled out in the holidays and vacations section of the county's parenting guidelines most likely.  Usually it has the kids alternating locations on a yearly basis.  It's there for a reason.  Maybe you can set those details aside and have it work long term.  For the majority of us, it's best to follow the orders or modify them officially so there's less likelihood of being painted as the cruel and inhuman one the first time we don't agree to the other's changes.

The Non-Nons here are warning you of their own Non's "nicey-nice" behaviors that simply don't work when Nons enter new relationships.  It becomes too much of an unpleasant, oppresive and impossible threesome when the prior relationship was dysfunctional with a disordered ex.  Theory and planning goes out the window when you mix in the disordered thinking, illogic and behaviors.

As one mentioned, on rare occasions an ex participated in events, but it was a presumed somewhat NORMAL ex.  Disordered ex is different.  Control, manipulation, twisted logic is oh so likely to happen.  It may not be blatant, it might start in subtle ways, but will it end, and where?

[Matt]

I see that you are trying to be comforting to the children and that is a great thing to do for a father. Not many dad will step up to that role now days. Just know that you still are in control and make it as none dramatic for the kids as possible. That is what I try to do in social situations that my husband is a part of. Keep things calm for the kids.

There hasn't been any drama since we separated.  I am on the lookout for it, and there will be non-family adults present, who know everything and are capable of helping if something goes wrong.  But it never does;  she has BPD, so she acts up in the home, with family, but not in front of others.  She'll be charming and friendly, or at worst surly, but I won't be alone with her and there will be no drama.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[Matt]

As for where the kids will wake up, that's spelled out in the holidays and vacations section of the county's parenting guidelines most likely.  Usually it has the kids alternating locations on a yearly basis.  It's there for a reason.  Maybe you can set those details aside and have it work long term.  For the majority of us, it's best to follow the orders or modify them officially so there's less likelihood of being painted as the cruel and inhuman one the first time we don't agree to the other's changes.

The Non-Nons here are warning you of their own Non's "nicey-nice" behaviors that simply don't work when Nons enter new relationships.  It becomes too much of an unpleasant, oppresive and impossible threesome when the prior relationship was dysfunctional with a disordered ex.  Theory and planning goes out the window when you mix in the disordered thinking, illogic and behaviors.

As one mentioned, on rare occasions an ex participated in events, but it was a presumed somewhat NORMAL ex.  Disordered ex is different.  Control, manipulation is oh so likely to happen.  It may not be blatant, it might start in subtle ways, but will it end, and where?

We do have a schedule, and if we can't agree that's what we fall back on, but I have to admit when it comes down to it that I will spend quality time with my kids and my ex will not interfere with that unreasonably.  When she has tried that, I documented it and did not keep her behavior a secret, and it changed.

She remains financially dependent on me, and we both know there will be a time when she needs my help in some way - probably a big way - and she is clearly motivated to cooperate with me on most things.

So when I said "I'm having a Thanksgiving dinner and I'd like you and the kids to join me" rather than fight it, she is going along, and even suggested that the kids spend the whole day with me.

It will probably be the same on Christmas, more or less:  I will propose something, and she will agree to it, or suggest a small change.  I know that's not how many BPD sufferers act, and it's not how she behaved when we were together, but now I think she fears driving me further away.  She knows that if she gets in big trouble (probably her physical health which is declining as a result of untreated BPD) she may need my help in some way.

My primary motivation is to make things OK for the kids;  if not for them I'd just stay home Thursday and feel sorry for myself.  This method has worked well so far.

[laurena82]

OK Matt,

  ...Hit me with a stick, and tell me to stop reading your posts!

It's a snowy day here, I'm at home, and making the mistake of seeing updates to your thread!...

I REALLY REALLY dont want to be saying anything that you'll take offense to, or be upset by...because...sigh...        ..you're just a dear, sweet, wonderful      "non"...seeing the world through his very "non" glasses !    8) 8)!

And so,  you're just at a different place than I am, etc etc...so I dont want to argue that at all...


So, I'm determined to just live and let live...sigh... ...and then I see:

My primary motivation is to make things OK for the kids;

(so, OK...now's your chance...hit me over the head and tell me to stop posting here...  )...

How is your kids spending Thanksgiving-day with exW, and spending a DIFFERENT day celebrating Thanksgiving with you BAD (eg. not "OK for your kids")?


OK, I'm gonna go find a soap opera, or LIFETIME movie to watch instead of badgering you anymore, OK?       

[problemfamily]

I think that you are going to have to have an "A-HA!" when the advice that you are hearing will sink in.

You mentioned that you were not seeking comfort from your ex. I realize that you may not be seeking physical comfort from her, but you are falling back on the comfort of "we are both the parents and we can lean on each other" in regards to your son. Admittedly I don't understand all that it entails to have had kids and a long term relationship with a person and then be apart from them, but I do believe that you are sending mixed signals both to her and to your kids by keeping their mom in your life. Everyone knows that divorce means that something is broken. Even kids know this. Inviting your former spouse into your home and your day to day life is confusing for kids. Period. It is a mixed signal in and of itself. You have said that when the two of you interact that is it just civil with apparent irritation - surely this is stressful for your children to see. They may put on a good face for you -but I will add my guarantee that they are waiting for the other shoe to drop the entire time and that certainly isn't any way to spend a day that is intended to be a celebration.

The problem that many are trying to articulate to you is that what is done is done. You are blurring the lines between life before the divorce and life after the divorce. I can add my worry and opinion as the new wife of a man who did a few of the things that you are doing now that is makes the transition infinitely more difficult for you, for your someday new partner, for your kids and for your ex-wife and even for your extended families. Had my DH set clear boundaries from the day that his ex moved out, I believe that many of the legal and family difficulties we have had (and continue to wade through)over the course of the last two years would have been minimal at most. I have a hard time explaining to him how hurtful it is to me that he outwardly appears to care more about what his ex-wife will do or say on certain matters than me. It has taken us much time and many tears to get to the point that we are now. A lot of anguish on all parties involved that could have been eliminated if only he had taken a stand right away after she left. And we are still a long way off from what would be ideal to me as the new wife.

I think I understand how you feel about the divorce. My DH has gone back and forth in his mind and heart over the years. He had even left his ex-wife at one point and went back to her because he felt so guilty and sad at the thought that his kids would have to deal with the effects of a divorce. His regret now is that he went back to her and that he and the kids lived through 3 extra years of her horrid behavior. I think what everyone is trying to get you to understand is that now is the time for you to heal, for you to protect yourself and make a clean break from your past life. I think that we (the secondary nons)see your attempts at protecting yourself by having other non-family around as great attempts but that it is like having helmet on when you should be wearing body armor.  It seems to be very difficult for nons to be selfish. Sometimes being selfish is necessary to be a healthy, happy person. If you are feeling low right now, do some things for yourself. As you are able to think of yourself more and focus on your home, your career, your interactions with the children and your physical, mental, social and emotional well-being, you will be able to see for yourself that the advice you are being offered is sound.

Good luck to you.

[koko]

Matt,

You have already invited her for Thanksgiving it seems.  No one living in BPD land can ever be sure, but my guess is that you would not have done that if you did not have some sense that things would go okay for the day, and in the meanwhile you will get to see your kids.  You admitted that you were kind of feeling sorry for yourself, and this gives your life purpose in some ways. Fact is, at the moment you DON't have a girlfriend to worry about. Technically speaking, I doubt that this Thanksgiving is going to be the deal breaker, or the be-all end-all.  The great thing about life is that it generally keeps going, and you get many many chances to do it over or different the next time, or times.  We all come to our realizations in our own good time.  However, what concerns me is your steadfastness in continuing on this track.

Matt, it is your responsibility as a father to help your children learn to live with the reality of the fact that you and your wife no longer live together.  It is that plain and simple.  You seem to feel that your job is to make them happy, or to make them forget, or perhaps even to make them feel like maybe the family is a family again, if only for a day.  For it seems that those are the things that you want Matt.  I hugely challenge your stating that you have no conflicting feelings.  And as a secondary non, this is the chapter or phase that I refer to as "Re-enactment."  Until you can believe within your heart that getting a divorce was the right and best course of action for both yourself and your children, you will continue to buy into these re-enactments.  They are like staged events of pretending that things are a certain way, when indeed they are not that way.  It is part of the non pattern.  My DH even let his UBPDnot-yet-divorced wife back into the house along with the mother-in-law for a great big ole pretend merry Christmas--confused the heck out of everyone--but worse than that it interrupted or delayed his own opportunity to say to kids--"We are a unit together.  We can be happy together.  We can create our own traditions and good times."  Instead the message was, "We are a family that pretends things are not what they really are.  I cannot have Christmas without your mother--she is too powerful and consumming.  I am not okay without your mother.  Your mom cannot have Christmas without me.  Your mom is not okay without me.  We are not separate people.  What you think you see is not what you see."  

Your children do not need re-enactments of a BPD-laden christmas.  Pardon me if I over-step here, but frankly, if it was all that great, then I don't think you would be divorced now and posting on a BPD for family board.  Why you wish to hold to this as the new standard, after all you've been through,  is the great mystery to myself and many secondary nons (but please know you have the company of many nons).  Your children do not need a re-enactment--they need for their father to step up to the plate and develop an honest "Matt and children" Christmas.  They will learn what that is and how to grow and live within it.  It will not be easy, and it will take several years to develop.  But it will be honest, good, and kind.  Like Matt.  

Peace. Koko

[the end]

dearest matt,

this will be my last post on the subject and IMHO I think you are being arguemnetitive, but to answer your question about "what distortions do you see?",

the primary theme here is your thinking is distorted regarding your apparent goodwill in the face of her aberrent and visicious behavior toward you and her son your SS, your distorted sense of your ability to control her and the  the situation. And that by you pretending fair treatment to HER, your kids will think you super dad, allowing them form an opinion contrary to the reality of the dynamic, like it or not children ALWAYS hope that mom and dad will reconsile.

I believe you have a distortion of appropriate behavior, consequences and boundaries in general.

Every following statement is one you have made, every one conflicts between you doing the right thing (in only your opinion) and her cruel behavior. Or you trying to create a reality of apparent cooperation for the kids while inwardly and behaviorally she is not. The sense of 'cooperation' is bought from her as you believe she is somehow obligated to you and on good behavior because you will be her 'sugadaddy' in her time of need...bah.

(The marriage ended when she went nuts, got violent, then called the police and accused me of DV.)




No problems so far;  at S10's birthday my ex stayed longer than I expected, didn't take a hint,

On Thanksgiving, the kids will be with you, but I’ll be having people over – probably not too many – and I wonder if you and the kids could come for dinner.

Not sure what time.  If you want to bring something that would be good, just let me know what so I’ll plan accordingly.

I don’t have anything planned except dinner.  Maybe there will be a football game on.

Let me know.

and for almost two years this approach has worked.  I think it's best for the kids - they (especially D12) will feel bad for Momma if she is just a mile away but not invited.

So...am I nuts?  (On this specific topic I mean.)

No, I don't think so, because she hasn't acted up the six or eight times I've done this before

Previously she has annoyed me by talking to me as if we're buddies, engaging me in conversation, nothing wrong but she seems to want to forget the cruel and hostile things she did to me.  I'll never forget.  Going to jail (OK, it was only 16 hours, not exactly "Cool Hand Luke") is memorable and she has never apologized or told the truth about that.  So to chat with me in the kitchen is grotesque.  But I handle it by giving a one-word answer and going into another room - not rude exactly, just not engaging.


Well I went to jail - that's pretty high-conflict - and she lied more than 40 times under oath, accusing me of a lot of stuff.  That was just in July.

I'm reluctant to say "I don't invite people to dinner after they put me in jail." which would be the answer I'd like to give.  (And I would give that answer to anybody but the kids.)

Keep the peace?  We are keeping the peace - better than I expected.  Coparent?  We are coparenting - better than I expected.  I've been doing it this way - minimal communication, mostly e-mail, document everything, debate nothing, hang up if she starts in, include her in holidays with non-family third parties present - for almost 2 years, even through an ugly divorce proceeding in which she made a lot of false accusations

I had to repeat my offer to her (OK, so maybe I shouldn't have repeated it) that she's welcome for dinner.  It just feels right to me - not what I'd most prefer, which would be for her to move far away, but what I think is best for the kids, which is to see us in the same place and not fighting.

"She put me in jail and then I had her to Thanksgiving dinner" - I'm OK with that, given that I'm careful about the risks.  (Non-family adults present etc.)  Think about it:  She wronged me horribly, and so I put a lot of distance between us - divorce and she's normally not allowed in my house - but at a few special times we go past that and treat each other with a little extra civility, and it works.  I'm not much of a Christian, but whatever your faith tradition is, or just humanity, I think this is a good thing to teach them.  If at some point it doesn't work - if she acts out - then things will change, and they'll see that too, though that will be a sad thing if it happens.

"Why do you want to be around her?" - I don't want to be around her, I'm including her because I think it's the right thing to do, and for a few hours I hope you and I can support each other on this, and it won't be a problem.

It's amazing the consensus on this - not completely surprising - but can you all be wrong and me right?  (A voice in my head says "Yes!".)

The only time since going to jail that I felt any warmth toward her at all - was briefly tempted to cry on her shoulder - was when this thing with my son happened a few months ago.  She's actually been great about it - acts like she has no responsibility for it, expresses sympathy for me (he's my stepson but I'm much closer to him than she is), and gives me good advice about the situation.

 My ex's behavior over the last few years has been pretty extreme (not Mrs. Hof extreme or Mrs. 9dad extreme, but still).  I will never forget for a minute what she did - lied to put me in jail, lied to take my money, lied under oath, lied about me to her family, lied about me to the court.  For an hour or two on Thanksgiving I'll have someone in my house that I don't trust, don't like, don't respect, don't care about except as a fellow human being.

And yes, when I'm looking at my ex, all I will be thinking about is what she did to my son all those years, and how she manages to go through life without taking any responsibility for it or taking any steps to change.



Well what we did the last two years (and remember the first year was 9 days after we both went to jail for one night) was we had a tree in the old house - the marital house - and I snuck in early in the morning and did the Santa Claus thing.  The awkward part was, I got my ex no gifts - I don't buy gifts for people that put me in jail.  But I helped the kids buy or make gifts for her and each other, and I brought gifts to the house from me along with some from Santa.  And it was fine.  My ex made breakfast and then I left

I promise you, I will never put myself in a situation where she could accuse me of anything.  I haven't for the last two years and I never will.  Going to jail is an experience I'll never forget for a minute (though it was only 16 hours.)


There hasn't been any drama since we separated.

She remains financially dependent on me, and we both know there will be a time when she needs my help in some way - probably a big way - and she is clearly motivated to cooperate with me on most things.

So when I said "I'm having a Thanksgiving dinner and I'd like you and the kids to join me" rather than fight it, she is going along, and even suggested that the kids spend the whole day with me.

She knows that if she gets in big trouble (probably her physical health which is declining as a result of untreated BPD) she may need my help in some way.

to answer your question on page 1...

So...am I nuts?  (On this specific topic I mean.)

yes

[Matt]

Thanks everybody.

I don't mean to be argumentative - I'm sorry - I'm taking it all in and learning.  You all have given me a lot to consider.

Matt

[laurena82]

Matt,

Thanks everybody.

I don't mean to be argumentative - I'm sorry

Absolutely no need to apologize...

You're just delivering what we were promised in your original posting ... ! 

OK, so here is where I first tell you what I did, and then ask what I should have done, and then argue with you and say why what I did was right...

   (where's the "thumbs up" icon?  ) 

[Matt]

I am learning.

I have found that if I post what I'm doing, even if it seems OK to me, I often get feedback that I didn't expect, and looking back it's usually (or always) right.  So over time I get it, even if right now I am set in my ways.

But I can see how that might look obstinate to my friends here...

[gertrude]

Hi Matt - I just wanted to add my two cents and hope I'm not being repetitive b/c I didn't read through all the posts - but no contact is important for two reasons - one - to keep you from getting back in the relationship and two - if being around her just makes you feel bad, even if you don't want to get back with her.  If you don't have those issues, then why not for the sake of the children occasionally sharing some time.  Carol

[koko]

You see, one of the things here for us secondary nons is that we are trying to save you from some of what we have had to experience or watch our nons experience.  We tend to get fairly passionate about it.  But the problem is that you need to come to these realizations yourself.  I am thinking that by hearing from us it might bring you to them faster.  The concern that I think secondary nons raise the highest is that this is not good for your children, as it is misleading and delaying the point at which you take the ball and build your own strong traditions and way of being. I really want to hold that up to you as your responsibility as their father not to confuse them further.  But you still have to go through what you must go through in order to get there. And we have to respect your process.  Forgive us, but it gets tedious to watch.   Koko

[Matt]

Hi Matt - I just wanted to add my two cents and hope I'm not being repetitive b/c I didn't read through all the posts - but no contact is important for two reasons - one - to keep you from getting back in the relationship and two - if being around her just makes you feel bad, even if you don't want to get back with her.  If you don't have those issues, then why not for the sake of the children occasionally sharing some time.  Carol

No way I'll get back into the relationship - not a problem.  (Both of our marriage counselors, after we were separated, suggested we "date".  I told each of them "I don't date people who put me in jail."  I agreed to marriage counseling in hopes that it would lead her to get the help she needs.  Even after a psychologist gave her a written report recommending psychotherapy, and that was put into the court order, she still hasn't done it.  So she'll never change, and I have no desire to be in a relationship with someone that toxic.)

Feeling bad around her is a little bit of an issue;  it's creepy to be around someone who has done all she's done.  But with others around it's just a little awkward, and I actually feel good that I'm open with others about what happened - not dwelling on it, but keeping no secrets - and they can see me dealing with this person effectively, cordially but with no real engagement.

Thanks.

Matt

[Matt]

You see, one of the things here for us secondary nons is that we are trying to save you from some of what we have had to experience or watch our nons experience.  We tend to get fairly passionate about it.  But the problem is that you need to come to these realizations yourself.  I am thinking that by hearing from us it might bring you to them faster.  The concern that I think secondary nons raise the highest is that this is not good for your children, as it is misleading and delaying the point at which you take the ball and build your own strong traditions and way of being. I really want to hold that up to you as your responsibility as their father not to confuse them further.  But you still have to go through what you must go through in order to get there. And we have to respect your process.  Forgive us, but it gets tedious to watch.   Koko

I think you are absolutely right - hearing it from everyone here, especially the secondary nons, plants the seeds.

I do appreciate your patience with me;  it is frustrating to feel like you're shouting into the wind.  But you're not.  I'm listening.

Thanks.

Matt

[Mr. M]

Given everything you have been through, you made a poor decision.

I would add more, but I am completely dumbfounded and mystified by your choices here.  If I start to go on a long-winded diatribe, I'll likely come off cruel or heartless, so I'll leave you with this, Matt...

As long as I've read your situations here, you are in a constant state of excuse-making, second-guessing, and justification for repeatedly putting yourself into potentially negative situations AND avoiding taking actions on situations that would be beneficial to you.  Over and over and over and over again.

This is the same thing, different story.  You justify it by saying everything is "going just fine and there has been no drama" - and as a result, you create situations that will upset that "apple-cart."  There is a reason that everything "seems" to be working just fine - the limited opportunities for chaos and terror to reign supreme.  You just keep taking down all the appropriate boundaries that you've been incredibly resistant to putting up all along.

You're inviting the chaos and terror back into your life and ignoring that reality.  I don't think you truly listen... I think you read... and telling us you're listening serves only to placate yourself.

[Skip]

I understand your thinking here.  In the microcosm of a single event,  what harm is there?  The truth is, probably not a lot.

But it begs a much bigger question – are you having trouble letting go of the marriage?   However painful, this is something you must to do now.  Everyone goes through this - it can be hard.

Sure, there is temptation to do it for the kids.  And certainly you are feeling a bit down and vulnerable lately … but that, Matt, is usually where we all started these relationships… at a point of vulnerability.

You want to move and grow forward… let go of the past.  Not for any future non – non.  Not to avoid another DV charge.  But to get on with your new life.

[koko]

Several times in this thread I have read the "doing it for the kids" phrase in several contexts that indicate a belief that it would be good for the kids, but for OTHER REASONS it would be best not to proceed.

I wanted to clarify that my primary point is that it is not good for the kids in any way shape or form--and for that reason alone it should not be done.  Not to be cruel, but if Thanksgiving, or Christmas, and all the holidays were so amazingly marvelous for the family, I really don't think that you would be posting here on the co-parenting board.  I think maybe folks have gotten a little holiday nostalgic or something.  Truth is, BPD holidays are even worse that BPD regular times.  It is unclear why anyone would think that this re-enactment of what was in all liklihood a previous nightmare, would serve children well.  The reason you go through all that you go through to separate and leave is so that you can then create a healthy and chaos free life--not continue to try to re-create the nightmare that was.

And the children are the primary reason to set clear boundaries--sorry--I'm a mom--I think they come first.

Peace. Koko

[Skip]

This topic has been continued here:
http://BPDfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85327.0