Too much contact

[Think About It...]

Prompted by another thread here. I have an ex-wife who contacts me a lot, sometimes about our children, but often hangs other conversation to it. I'm sruggling with where my boundaries should be on this. Most of the time she is okay and I let her talk, avoid responding too much and try to focus on the kids. Sometimes she just calls to say something I might want to watch is on TV etc or to tell me how well we are getting on...

Beyond a little unease, this doesn't bother me too much. However, I'm starting to think about what a new partner might make of it. I'm seeing someone now who knows we share parenting so obviously we are in regular contact.

What would make a secondary non uncomfortable here? Is it reasonable to ask my ex-wife to stop calling unless it's about the children? If I get a text saying "I miss you" or "it could have worked out" how do I deal with it?

So far, the new person in my life knows I am divorced but knows almost nothing about my ex. My ex doesn't know about my new friend, my kids don't know either. The topic hasn't come up in conversation yet. I suspect that if my ex did know then she would make our co-parenting much more difficult.

Comments anyone? Thanks, Sam.

[Samuell]

Prompted by another thread here. I have an ex-wife who contacts me a lot, sometimes about our children, but often hangs other conversation to it. I'm sruggling with where my boundaries should be on this. Most of the time she is okay and I let her talk, avoid responding too much and try to focus on the kids. Sometimes she just calls to say something I might want to watch is on TV etc or to tell me how well we are getting on...

Beyond a little unease, this doesn't bother me too much. However, I'm starting to think about what a new partner might make of it. I'm seeing someone now who knows we share parenting so obviously we are in regular contact.

What would make a secondary non uncomfortable here? Is it reasonable to ask my ex-wife to stop calling unless it's about the children? If I get a text saying "I miss you" or "it could have worked out" how do I deal with it?

So far, the new person in my life knows I am divorced but knows almost nothing about my ex. My ex doesn't know about my new friend, my kids don't know either. The topic hasn't come up in conversation yet. I suspect that if my ex did know then she would make our co-parenting much more difficult.

Comments anyone? Thanks, Sam.

[problemfamily]

Sam -

You are divorced. That means your day to day life no longer involves your ex. What that means to me as a secondary non and new wife is that my DH no longer discusses TV shows and cute things the kids say with his ex, he says those things to me. Once you add the possibility of BPD and a new person into the mix, things are going to get real hairy real fast.

My suggestion is that before you seriously involve a new person into your life and your kids' life, get some boundaries in place with your ex. There are some workshops here that do a good job of explaining about boundaries. Boundaries are for you and your sanity, not for taking things out on your ex. I believe that no matter the mental state, any divorced woman with kids is going to bristle at the thought of a new woman in your life. YOU have the power to minimize the stress by separating your life with the ex from your new life.

You can start by doing simple things like not responding to the text messages. Don't answer the phone when she calls. Be busy - if there is an emergency she will leave a message. After a while your ex will begin to understand that you aren't keen on talking on the phone. You can also begin the pattern of email contact being your focus by sending her an email in response to phone messages rather than returning the call. She's probably going to throw a fit because she likes being able to have contact, but for your sake and the kids, email will work better.

The earlier you begin setting FIRM boundaries over contact, the better for everyone. It will soon become old hat and by the time you have a serious relationship in your life, it won't disrupt how "things have always been"

[Samuell]

I'm taking it in and taking notice.

A few things - I don't have caller id but I do have an answering machine and I can always leave it to go to that from now on. I can also ignore texts. I guess I need to be a little less reliable. I have no plans to tell her about GF but the kids will meet her in a few months if we are still together then.

Visitation is simple now but could get complicated - it's now about 50-50 based on "prior arrangement" which basically means that we agree week by week in advance according to what suits. This is VERY useful with my job sicne I sometimes travel. Ex has been extremely co-operative about this and has taken the kids more often when I am busy at work, for example. This is one aspect that she could make very difficult. I would struggle to get a legal agreement unless she breaks the one we have, of course.

Yes, she gets me to do other things like help to put furniture together, fetching and carrying (she doesn't drive) "for the kids." I can just see how this would look to GF.

A few things I can do then (feel free to add):

1. Stick to a more formal written schedule with the kids so it will be obvious if it's not adhered to
2. No answering the phone, always leave it to voicemail
3. Become unreliable re: requests while staying v reliable re: visits
4. Keep being "too busy" all the time so we don't slip into chitchat
5. Say "No" as a matter of course without accepting the guilt

For Christamas, I intend to spend the first half of the day until mid afternoon with the kids at Ex's house and then go on my own to GF. This is sort-of agreed now but any advice welcome as before.

Thanks again!

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

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[Samuell]

Last year was similar - Christmas Eve the kids stayed with me, we met at church on Christmas morning with my ex and then shared Christmas dinner then I went away for the afternoon for a bit. This year I am going in the afternoon and not returning. I like having the kids on Christmas morning and my ex is ot so bothered about it.

If I had a serious GF next year then I'd hope she'd stay with me on Christmas Eve as well and my ex would just have to live with that, wouldn't she?

Just as an aside but the way my ex talks about it she had much more right to have other partners when we were married than I do now we're divorced! Wierd or what?

Sam.

[JoannaK]

Samuell, wasn't your ex a serious drinker?  If so, has she stopped drinking?

[Oy-vey!]

And in an ideal world, with a normal xW, it would be nice if you could take the gf with you TO the xW's home for Xmas.  I have friends who do this with their GFs & going to the Xs for important holidays.

However, that is one huge powder keg that could blow.  Make your own plans for Xmas with the kids without the X.  NOW.  Doesn't matter about the GF, whether or not you have one.  It is about making your own life with your kids that does not include the xW.  Why?  Because you are divorced and she is crazy. 

This is a boundary you can establish and begin enforcing NOW.  With practice enforcing boundaries gets easier.  You have a good list of things to address.  Good for you!

[Samuell]

Samuell, wasn't your ex a serious drinker?  If so, has she stopped drinking?

Yes, she was a serious drinker. She drinks less now but still a lot IMHO. I have not witnessed her out of control (drunk) in front of the kids for more than 6 months now.

[Samuell]

And in an ideal world, with a normal xW, it would be nice if you could take the gf with you TO the xW's home for Xmas.  I have friends who do this with their GFs & going to the Xs for important holidays.

This is not going to happen any time soon!

[Oy-vey!]

And nor would I expect you to be able to do that - that is my point!  IF your xW was NORMAL then by all means, keep the tradition of going to her house.  SHE IS NOT NORMAL.  So, do not begin a tradition for the kids that cannot be continued because you have a GF.  That is wrong. 

[Samuell]

How to deal with the associated guilt-trip please?

[rps67]

I'm late to the posting party, as usual!

What everyone else has said is dead on. Your ex will probably show her true colors when the GF becomes a known entity, so now is the time to prepare by putting real boundaries in place.

One thing that I would urge you to keep in mind is that you should be prepared to defend your GF and your relationship with your ex. I'll give you an example from my experience.

When SO's uBPDex found out about us/me, she grilled SO about me. She claimed that she just wanted to know about the woman that her kids would be around, right? Except...she asked very personal questions that really have no bearing on how I would treat her kids. She just wanted to think she had inside information about me.

Because SO was fooled into thinking that she was going to be ok with me if he just told her enough about me, he opened his mouth wide and info just came falling out. I already understood how uBPDex is, so I felt completely betrayed by him. What right did he have to tell her personal things about me? And of course, uBPDex has used some of those things to paint me as a horrible person that her kids shouldn't associate with.

There were plenty of times when uBPDex talked trash about me and SO never did anything about it. I couldn't really do anything, but HE could have told her to knock it off. If my ex was saying bad things about SO, you'd better believe I'd confront him about it.

In our case, it didn't matter that for the first 2 years after they split, SO saw the kids 3-4 times a week. Once I was on uBPDex's radar, she immediately started telling the kids that SO has replaced her and the kids with his new family -- me, our son together and my children.

Funny thing is that it was a self-fulfilling prophecy for her. She and the kids all acted so horribly toward SO that he finally decided to stop seeing the kids this summer. My kids and I have now become his family.

Oh, one thing I would suggest for your GF's sake is that you put your cards on the table about your ex's behavior and potential for drama. Right now, your GF probably thinks that you have a relatively normal post-divorce relationship with a relatively normal ex. She needs to understand what your ex is capable of, so she has an idea of how her life will be impacted if you get more serious. My SO really downplayed his ex's behavior until well after we were serious about each other and had a child on the way. If I had known the truth about his ex, I really would have thought long and hard about whether to get more involved with him.




RPS

[the end]

Practice HEALTHY boundaries, they are your personal choices in how to interact. Not a way to control or manipluate another person.

http://www.BPD411.org/boundariesunhealthy.html

http://www.BPD411.org/boundariessetting.html

http://www.coping.org/innerhealing/boundary.htm

remember as a parent you have the opportunity to demonstrate and teach children how to have healthy boundaries and skills to deal with toxic and unpleasant people.

Happy reading

[koko]

I appreciate that you are trying to look at this issue prior to a serious relationship with a GF.  I also want to echo what everyone lese has already said about boundaries and limiting contact.

I wanted to emphasize some things related to the holidays, and especially a couple of things though that Oy-vey brought up--the importance of beginning your own traditions, not because you have a GF (or don't have one), but rather, because that is the right thing to do for the children.

I bring this up because at the holidays I find that even "nons in the know" seem to regress, not sure if it's the Hallmark card commercials or the sappy Christmas music, or the general misguided notion out there of "wouldn't it be nice for the kids to see the whole family together for the holiday?"  But somehow in December this board seems to light up with hopes for nice peaceful Christmas mornings--boundaries be darned, at this time of year isn't it best to just lay down the armour, and have one big group hug. . .    And in fact, a non can easily start believing that if or she is not willing to cast aside the thousands that have been spent on legal fees and the progress that months of enforcing stable and consistent boundaries has brought, that he/she is indeed the Christmas Grinch.

I suspect that I may present a minority opinion, but I really differ with the entire belief that being together on Christmas somehow provides some kind of warm and fuzzy meaning to children's lives.  In fact, I think it is the parents who are unable to give up this warm and fuzzy belief that the Hallmark moment that they were never able to acheive while married now mysteriously lurks right around the corner.  For the children I think it must be confusing as heck. You spend the year trying to get the children to understand that you are separated/divorced--meaning you live in different places, have different vacations, have different and separate lives.  But suddenly it's that magical time of year, and hey, let's just get together for a big ole pretend day of BPD-Christmas.  It is a flagrant lie, a pretense, and it is severaly misleading to children at precisely the time of year that we are telling them to believe in magic, and Santa, and that wishes come true. . .  I am saying, set those boudnaries and build your own traditions NOT for the GF, NOT for yourself--but FOR the KIDS.

Now, as a secondary non it is just kinda pouring salt in the wound that the only time a non generally begins to question this Hallmark misty moment re-enactment is when he finds himself with a GF.  (But that's just a pet peeve, it is not my point.)  Forgive me, but i don't get the concept of re-enacting what was, more often than not, the Christmas nightmare.  If those Christmases were really all that beautiful and magical for the children, then it is likely you might all still be one big happy family.  But the reality is more like the momster screaming that no one cared enough to get her the gift she wanted, too much alcohol, plates thrown across the kitchen, pinning a child to the wall screaming to the child that she is a spoiled f---ing brat for wanting that expensive American Girl doll and on and on and on. . .yep, I really understand why the nons want to re-enact this little scene over and over and over and over  

Samuell, sorry if I over-reacted a bit.  Obviously I have strong feelings about this, but everyday I am reading another post with someone planning the BPD holiday re-enactment and it's kinda making me nuts : Tis the season. . .

Peace.   Koko

[daelyn263]

The holidays are going well for us, thank goodness!  The ex has the kids for Christmas this year, we'll get them both on the 28th(daughter lives with mom, son with  us). She has what she 'wants', so she's not being psycho about it. Thanksgiving was different though, as we got both of the kids for the whole week. She tried lying about daughter having the week off school(easy enough for us to check online), then tried to bluster her way through it and divide the week. My husband refused(we'd already made plans to go to my family's place, too far to pull that off). Once she realized he wouldn't cave in, she stopped her shenanigans. None have started for Christmas. Money wise, we are helping out a bit for Christmas. There is no child support ordered, as each has one child, and my income puts us way above hers. Us helping out financially will be at a minimum, and only because my husband wants to make sure there is something under her tree for the kids. I agree with him on that. It stinks she can't figure out how to do it on her own, but, that's not the kids fault and we won't make them pay for her inability to provide.

My point to all that? Well, as a secondary non, I should be furious I suppose, about helping her out. Maybe someday it will all come back to bite me in the butt, who knows?

He let me know early on about his ex, I just had no clue how bad it could really get. I've learned my lesson!
We've been down the road and back again and are finally finding our balance. Two years ago, he spent Christmas with his ex and the kids(at that time, son did not live with us), and I understood completely. I had to work and my kids spent the day with their dad. In the end, it was successful. However...last year he didn't get to see his daughter at all...but we had his son.

If you're supposed to have the kids this year, then you do that. Do it now, while it's easiest and there isn't the fuss of a GF to toss in the mix. If she's supposed to have them, the let her have them and promise the kids their own Christmas at your place when they come over. It's really not the tragedy it seems to be.  Taditionally, my kids spend part of the day with their dad, and part with me. If I have to work, then they spent the night with their dad and I picked them up after I got off work Christmas day. We never did pay much attention to the 'visitation' rules in our papers. We figured the kids had two very capable parents who could act like adults and give the kids best we could despite our relationship or lack there of. Unfortunately, it just doesn't work like that with BPD's.

[salt]

I like that the subject line of your post admits that the contact is TOO MUCH.  Great start.  I realize that you put up with TOO MUCH in the interest of keeping the peace, but that means that you are walking on eggshells still, my friend. 

You have a lot of power.  It might not feel that way to you, but you do.  Your actions have and will continue to have a profound impact on your children and any present or future relationship with a woman. 

I know that setting limits with a borderline is one of the most difficult tasks anyone can undertake.  They rally and rage and fight against them tooth and nail, because to them they represent abandonment.  At the heart of BPD is a deep dark fear of real or perceived abandonment.

Your current behaviors sooth her fear.  Your willingness to take her calls, to listen to her, to do her favors, to work "with her" regarding the schedule...etc...all work to keep her calm through a constant soothing of her fear.  But it comes at a price. 

First and foremost, YOU are paying the price by putting your own feelings and needs beneath hers.  I'm sure you do it "for the sake of the children", but you must re-examine your point of view on this.  You are modeling unhealthy behavior for your children.  You are setting an example of not taking care of your own emotional need to separate -- TRULY emotionally separate -- from the borderline.  There will come a time in their lives when separating from their mother will be ESSENTIAL  to their own healthy futures.  They NEED an example.  They REQUIRE an example of how to say "no", how to protect their own personal space, and how to take care of their own emtional needs rather than make them secondary to their mother's needs.  YOU and only YOU have this power.  Grasp it, take it, and run with it. 

The other price you will be paying later is in relation to a new relationship.  Whether it is this one or one down the road, you are setting it up for either complete failure or at least a ton of unnecessary drama, conflict, and unhappiness.  I say this from experience. 

I met my DH a full two years post-divorce.  I won't go into a lengthy description of each and every problem we encountered along the way, but I will say this.  A new mate, if you want them to be happy and fulfilled in the relationship, and I assume you want those things for yourself and for your mate -- will need for you to be the rock of boundaries with your ex.  She can not be placed in the position of scapegoat.  And, at this point, based on your current behaviors, this is EXACTLY where you are placing her. 

If you start to build and enforce boundaries only AFTER you are in a serious relationship, then your ex wife will be sure to place the blame squarely on the "new" woman.  And this will last years if not forever.  It defies logic, but then so does most of what happens with a BPD.  Your ex will blame her for every change, every boundary, every unreturned phone call or limited communication.  She will poison your children's minds against her, blaming her for changing what in her mind was "post-divorce bliss" (to borrow a term my DH's ex uBPD wife used in court against me). 

I encourage you to follow the advice given here.  Until you are able to establish separation, iron clad boundaries, and a resolve to PROTECT your new mate against the attacks of the borderline, I suggest that you not be involved with anyone. It's simply not fair. 

[Samuell]

I can't believe how much great advice I've got from you all in just 24 hours. Thankyou.

You are right that I am still doing a bit of eggshell-walking. It comes pretty naturally, and I bargain with myself that it's not so bad because it's not all the time like it used to be. Christmas is the perfect time for thinking we can just pretend everything is nomal and okay when we all know it's not.

The Christmas before last (we separated Summer 2007) was hell right up to the day itself. I think a day or two before she was having intimate conversations with another guy while I was sending her roses. It was crazy as hell. Another night she just went out and stayed out all night. Last Christmas we had been separated a few months and it went okay just for the day. No, I don't want to repeat old bad holidays. I think I will reinforce the fact we are celebrating separately this year (except for the pre-arranged meal itself) and not pick up any guilt about it. I did not choose to smash up my family - my ex-wife did that all by herself and I will not take the blame.

I am going to change GF surname on my mobile phone should anyone get their hands on it. Apart from that, I can keep being pretty careful. If and when I am questioned I will just refuse to answer any of the questions. The only thing my ex would need to know is that if GF sees the kids that she is safe. Beyond that, she doesn't need to know her age, occupation, address or anything else.

I will post here as this unfolds - it will be useful to me and no doubt to others in the same situation.

Sam.

[rps67]

I am going to change GF surname on my mobile phone should anyone get their hands on it. Apart from that, I can keep being pretty careful. If and when I am questioned I will just refuse to answer any of the questions. The only thing my ex would need to know is that if GF sees the kids that she is safe. Beyond that, she doesn't need to know her age, occupation, address or anything else.

The bolded line above troubles me because IME, there is nothing you can do to make a BPD believe that the GF is safe to be around the kids. It's easier to take the stance that the GF is NONE of BPD's business. None. Because you'd better believe that if BPD isn't asking you directly about GF, after the kids meet her, BPD will grill them about her.

BPD lost the right to dictate who's around the kids when you two split. Now she has to trust you not to expose the kids to people that are bad for them, just as you need to do the same with her.

The entitlement of the BPD never fails to amaze me. When my ex remarried, I knew his wife's first name. I learned other things as time went on and I got to know her. Now that they've been married 2 years and she and I talk/email on a regular basis, I know a LOT about her, including how she was as a teenager (we compare notes). I got to know her because she's an important part of my kids' lives, not because I want to use any of her info against her.

BPD's, though, well, they're always looking to use information against you.




RPS

[Samuell]

rps, you are right. I sometimes pick up on that entitlement as if it means anything real. She can trust me to not take risks with the kids. I have no record of ever putting them at risk of anything (she has). I was not asked to vet the various undesirables she invited into the family home to sleep with while we were married, after all!

[Mr. M]

We kept DW "off the radar" for darn-near 9-months.  It was the right thing to do.

[Rose]

Just want to agree with the others we well.  As a secondary non, I was also kept off the radar for a good 10 months.  The skids weren't told my last name, where I worked, or what I did.  (I am a small business owner, owning a training company).  When I met the skids, I was simply 'Rose' who lived in the next town over.  My profession was "teacher", because, that's what I technically did, although it was not entirely accurate.  I realized later how fortunate that was for us, as in the subsequent years our exBPD tried to get most of my DHs' assets, and surely, I would of factored into the equation, were it not I was "just a teacher" vs. a small business owner.

Here's maybe some more advice, from the secondary non perspective:

1)  Don't put her in the position, explicitely or implicitely, of having to have contact with exBPD.  Ever.  Even if your secondary non says it's "ok," she might be naiive in thinking that everyone can get along with one another, and co-parent amicable.  Ain't gonna happen. 

2) Don't use her as the sounding board for all exBPD things related.  It's tiring, wearisome, and not good for new relationships.

3) Don't give exBPD any information about your secondary non.  Even things that seem benign can come back to bite your secondary non and you.

4) Don't think that your secondary non is going to love your skids as much as you do (even though, she might), or feel comfortable with you having contact with the exBPD at all.  If you keep conversations with exBPD to be "just the kids, nothing but the kids" it will go a long way in opening relationship doors with your secondary non.

5) Keep your home / space a "exBPD-free zone."  Let phone calls go to voicemail.  Let knocks on the door go unanswered.  Don't invite exBPD over to your house, and don't go over to hers. (There are numerous experiences on this board where police are called, false abuse allegations are offered up --- and, it's the secondary non that invaritably gets sucked into this chaos.)  If you limit the risk of these situations happening, you are protecting your new relationship with your secondary non.

6) Don't fall for triangulation that will appear.

I'll post more later!