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« on: December 21, 2008, 12:59:35 AM »

How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves

Roger Melton, M.A.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves

Regardless of how a person with Borderline Personality Disorder alters and tailor her appearance and actions to please others, she often presents with a clear and characteristic personality pattern over time. This pattern usually evolves through three stages: The Vulnerable Seducer, The Clinger, and The Hater. This evolution may take months, and sometimes even years to cycle through. In the later periods, the personality often swings wildly back and forth from one phase to the next.

Love: The Vulnerable Seducer Phase

At first, a Borderline female may appear sweet, shy, vulnerable and "ambivalently in need of being rescued"; looking for her Knight in Shining Armor.

In the beginning, you will feel a rapidly accelerating sense of compassion because she is a master at portraying herself as she "victim of love" and you are saving her. But listen closely to how she sees herself as a victim. As her peculiar emotional invasion advances upon you, you will hear how no one understands her - except you. Other people have been "insensitive." She has been betrayed, just when she starts trusting people. But there is something "special" about you, because "you really seem to know her."

It is this intense way she has of bearing down on you emotionally that can feel very seductive. You will feel elevated, adored, idealized - almost worshiped, maybe even to the level of being uncomfortable. And you will feel that way quickly. It may seem like a great deal has happened between the two of you in a short period of time, because conversation is intense, her attention, and her eyes are so deeply focused on you.

Here is a woman who may look like a dream come true. She not only seems to make you the center of her attention, but she even craves listening to your opinions, thoughts and ideas. It will seem like you have really found your heart's desire.

Like many things that seems too good to be true, this is. This is borderline personality disorder.

It will all seem so real because it is real in her mind. But what is in her mind it is not what you perceive to be happening.

Love: The Clinger Phase

Once she has successfully candied her hook with your adoration, she will weld it into place by “reeling in” your attention and concern. Her intense interest in you will subtly transform over time. She still appears to be interested in you, but no longer in what you are interested in. Her interest becomes your exclusive interest in her. This is when you start to notice “something”. Your thoughts, feelings and ideas fascinate her, but more so when they focus on her. You can tell when this happens because you can feel her "perk-up" emotionally whenever your attention focuses upon her feelings and issues. Those moments can emotionally hook your compassion more deeply into her, because that is when she will treat you well - tenderly.

It’s often here, you begin to confuse your empathy with love, and you believe you're in love with her. Especially if your instinct is strong and rescuing is at the heart of your "code." Following that code results in the most common excuse I hear as a therapist, as to why many men stay with borderline women, "... .But I love her!" Adult love is built on mutual interest, care and respect - not on one-way emotional rescues. And mothering is for kids. Not grown men.

But, if like King Priam, you do fall prey to this Trojan Horse and let her inside your city gates, the first Berserker to leave the horse will be the devious Clinger. A master at strengthening her control through empathy, she is brilliant at eliciting sympathy and identifying those most likely to provide it-like the steady-tempered and tenderhearted.

The world ails her. Physical complaints are common. Her back hurts. Her head aches. Peculiar pains of all sorts come and go like invisible, malignant companions. If you track their appearance, though, you may see a pattern of occurrence connected to the waning or waxing of your attentions. Her complaints are ways of saying, "don't leave me. Save me!" And Her maladies are not simply physical. Her feelings ail her too.

She is depressed or anxious, detached and indifferent or vulnerable and hypersensitive. She can swing from elated agitation to mournful gloom at the blink of an eye. Watching the erratic changes in her moods is like tracking the needle on a Richter-scale chart at the site of an active volcano, and you never know which flick of the needle will predict the big explosion.

But after every emotional Vesuvius she pleads for your mercy. And if she has imbedded her guilt-hooks deep enough into your conscientious nature, you will stay around and continue tracking this volcanic earthquake, caught in the illusion that you can discover how to stop Vesuvius before she blows again. But, in reality, staying around this cauldron of emotional unpredictability is pointless. Every effort to understand or help this type of woman is an excruciatingly pointless exercise in emotional rescue.

It is like you are a Coast Guard cutter and she is a drowning woman. But she drowns in a peculiar way. Every time you pull her out of the turbulent sea, feed her warm tea and biscuits, wrap her in a comfy blanket and tell her everything is okay, she suddenly jumps overboard and starts pleading for help again. And, no matter how many times you rush to the emotional - rescue, she still keeps jumping back into trouble. It is this repeating, endlessly frustrating pattern which should confirm to you that you are involved with a Borderline Personality Disorder. No matter how effective you are at helping her, nothing is ever enough. No physical, financial or emotional assistance ever seems to make any lasting difference. It's like pouring the best of your self into a galactic-sized Psychological Black Hole of bottomless emotional hunger. And if you keep pouring it in long enough, one-day you'll fall right down that hole yourself. There will be nothing left of you but your own shadow, just as it falls through her predatory "event horizon." But before that happens, other signs will reveal her true colors.

Sex will be incredible. She will be instinctually tuned in to reading your needs. It will seem wonderful - for a while.

The intensity of her erotic passion can sweep you away, but her motive is double-edged. One side of it comes from the instinctually built-in, turbulent emotionality of her disorder. Intensity is her trump-card.

But the other side of her is driven by an equally instinctually and concentrated need to control you. The sexual experiences, while imposing, are motivated from a desire to dominate you, not please you. Her erotic intensity will be there in a cunning way tailored so you will not readily perceive it.

“I love you” means – “I need you to love me”. “That was the best ever for me” means – tell me “it was the best ever for you”. Show me that I have you.

Love: The Hater Phase

Once a Borderline Controller has succeeded and is in control, the Hater appears. This hateful part of her may have emerged before, but you probably will not see it in full, acidic bloom until she feels she has achieved a firm hold on your conscience and compassion. But when that part makes it's first appearance, rage is how it breaks into your life.

What gives this rage its characteristically borderline flavor is that it is very difficult for someone witnessing it to know what triggered it in reality. But that is its primary identifying clue: the actual rage-trigger is difficult for you to see. But in the Borderline's mind it always seems to be very clear. To her, there is always a cause. And the cause is always you. Whether it is the tone of your voice, how you think, how you feel, dress, move or breathe - or "the way you're looking at me," - she will always justify her rage by blaming you for "having to hurt her."

Rage reactions are also unpredictable and unexpected. They happen when you least expect it. And they can become extremely dangerous. It all serves to break you down over time. Your self esteem melts away. You change and alter your behavior in hopes of returning to the “Clinger Stage”. And periodically you will, but only to cycle back to the hater when you least expect it, possibly on her birthday, or your anniversary.

Borderline Personality Disorder is a serious mental illness.

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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2008, 04:24:18 AM »

How many times are you going to keep hurting yourself... ? What are you some kind of sadist... ? Do you enjoy being tortured by this person...  would you willingly tie yourself up and let someone shock you?  Thats is what you are basically doing being with her...  The push/pull cycle repeats...  each time she feels that she is losing you, she will throw you scraps and make you believe it will be different this time...  how many cycles are you willing to go through before you end up giving up?  How much time has past by where its been mostly bad and hardly any good in the relationship...  Why do you continue to be with this person hoping for a different outcome when shes proven to be incapable of giving you what you want... ?  Once you bring your own needs to the table she will hate you.  You arent allowed to have needs of your own... you were put on earth to fill her needs and save her...  Anything less than that and you will see the monster that they really are.

Was it all worth it... ?  Being with this person, what did it cost you?  It cost me a lot... but im finally off the roller coaster and i will never get back on that ride again.

What i didn't realize is i was playing a game i couldnt win.  

You can't make them happy, nothing you do will ever be enough... You could give them the moon and they still wouldnt be happy.  You could sacrifice your own life for them and they still wouldnt believe that you cared. Nothing you do will ever make them happy... Remember this.

Maybe you'd like to try... ? hmm... how to keep them somewhat happy lets see...

1. Be a complete doormat.

2. Never blame them for anything, even if they really are wrong.

3.  Validate every feeling they have at the cost of your own.

4. Give up all your own needs

5. do not expect to get as much as you put in

6. Do not expect to be loved like you love them

7. Do not ever disappoint them in anyway

8. Do not ever tell them they are wrong

9. treat them like children.

10. let them rage at you for no reason and take it.

Does this sound like a normal healthy relationship to you? Can you possibly be happy with this kind of person for the rest of your life?
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2008, 12:22:27 PM »

It is amazing and frightening how consistent the pattern of a BPD relationship can be.  Looking back, I feel like an idiot for not seeing the "red flags", but I honestly had no idea about BPD.  That does not excuse what happened to me and I take full responsibility.  I was taken in "hook, line and sinker."  I heard the same comments, such as "you saved me" and you're my "soulmate" and was foolish enough to believe it. 

Then, after the honeymoon was over, I put up with the distancing.  Absolutely crazy.  She had this thing about she had to be with her friends and could not be with me when she was with her friends.  I was completely shut out.  I tried to end things twice.  The second time brought on a rage, the likes of which I have never heard before.  I put her on speakerphone just so a friend of mine could hear the rage of a BPD.  As many of you have been on the receiving end of BPD rage, you know exactly what I am talking about. Unfortunately, I was "re-engaged" back in twice.

I was setting up to end things again by telling her that she was sending me a clear message about how she felt about our relationship and that I needed to talk with her.  After that conversation, she texted me and said she didn't want to end the relationship, but wanted to talk about things.  But, the next day, in classic BPD fashion, she beat me to the punch and said that she couldn't be in a relationship and needed to work on herself.  She said that she didn't know who she was.  I agreed and that was that.  No yelling and rage.  Since then I had a couple of texts telling me how much she cared about me, and one call from her telling me she was laid off from her job.  She knew she would get my sympathy.  My resolve to not respond to her has gotten stronger each day.  I even took a suggestion from a friend to replace her name on my phone to ":)O NOT ANSWER".  I understand now that any contact is about her and not me. 

I can't express enough how reading the posts on this message board have helped me through this mess along with great patience of family and friends.  I have found everyone on this board to be a source of strength.  The difference b/w folks on this board and your family and friends is that people on this board have lived life with a BPD.  It makes a difference.  I have many things to be thankful for in this life. But, at this time in my life, when I am struggling with the fallout of a BPD relationship, I want to thank everyone who contributes to this board for sharing your thoughts, experiences and feelings.  You had made a difference in my life.  And because of your support, I will come back and be stronger than ever. Thanks.       

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« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2008, 01:06:03 AM »

Patrick Carnes sees it as an addiction or trauma bond. Some others see it as a rescuer/persecutor/victim triangle.  Some as sadism/masochism.


Date: Jan-2014Minutes: 2:10

What Is Addiction? | Patrick Carnes  PhD

All boils down to the combination of someone splitting and the other person trying to make coherence out of it.

Average people walk away from the nuttiness but those that have old unresolved ''stuff'' are glued to it and try to wrap their heads around it.
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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2008, 10:36:39 AM »

it is so eerie how all these BPDs are so alike.

you described my so called ex "friendship".

and the addiction - "you're basically chasing after what could be" and everything else... SPOT ON.

Excerpt
average people walk away from the nuttiness but those that have old unresolved ''stuff'' are glued to it and try to wrap their heads around it.

100% true.  which is why i think everyone involved with a BPD needs to get therapy or figure it out (about themselves).  doesn't mean you're crazy or you're a failure, but you need to figure out why you didn't just walk away. (which seems obvious, but it really isn't)

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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2008, 10:57:42 AM »

We don't walk away because the BPD isn't obvious at the time, only in retrospect.  The push/pull dance, the splitting, the abusive behaviors, the gaslighting are all insidious.  That's why we are here talking to each other as nons, because we understand the seduction of the honeymoon phase.  In all but the most extreme cases, it's not a situation of BP behavior being patently obvious to one group of "normal" people but not to us.  I think almost anyone could be a non, even without the predisposing history of low self-esteem or addictive behaviors.   And then, as previous posters have pointed out, once you're sucked in, you're reluctant to give up.  It's just human nature, not gullibility, not a character flaw, not another type of psychological disorder.  We may become disordered as a result of a BP relationship, but we did not start out that way.  Another poster said on another thread that she was quite "normal" before she met her BP--good self-esteem, confident, etc.  I think a lot of us start out that way.  By the time we are posting on this board we have been transformed into self-flagellating doubters of everything. 
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2008, 12:18:28 PM »

I think it depends on the persons/situation... .I would say in MOST cases, the minute there are signs of push/pull , hot/cold, abusive behavior, which almost ALWAYS are seen within a few months at the most or until INTIMACY becomes apparent in the relationship, then a person who had healthy relationship experiences and is not a rescuer, etc... .will seriously give pause to this stuff... .and pay more attention to actions rather than words. I have to meet one non that didn't see signs early on, and who didn't regret NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THEIR GUT FEELING that something was incredibly wrong. There are those that walked into these relationships very naive also... .that doesn't make them mentally ill, it is simply a case of finding out why, as an adult, one has this level of naiveity.

I hope my comments don't suggest a non is mentally ill. I am simply stating that in ALL relationships there are two people and both play a part in the dance. Looking at one's own part is the ONLY control we have over this stuff... .looking at the BPD's part may relieve some self doubt and answer some questions, but at the end of the day, we don't have control over other people. AND it is also important to realize that we have emotional drives that dictate oftentimes what we do... .and perhaps an overdeveloped sense of duty, obligation, responsibility, loyalty, etc.

Look, I'm a therapist and STILL didn't put together the fact that I was with  BPD... .it does not show itself until intimacy triggers all the core issues. But I DID see behaviors that were ''odd'' or ''eccentric'', and I brushed them away. My gut said "WHOA''... .my intellect said ''Give him a chance"... .and I did. And another one, and another one. THAT is the problem. Where we draw the line as healthy adults in an adult relationship. If it was a CHILD then the tolerance of course is going to be different.

Interesting discussion!

SD
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« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2008, 12:36:21 PM »

I didn't take your comments as saying we're all mentally ill.  quite the contrary.

and i hope my comments weren't taken that way.

but you are right... .in hindsight, most of us DID see the red flags, but chose to not go with our gut feeling.  at least with most of the people i have talked to here, including me.  i had loads of self esteem and confidence - in fact, that's what attracted him to me in the first place -  the fact that i could "fight" with him and debate with him without getting my feelings hurt.  but eventually that wore me down.

BPD can't hide itself for too long. heck, i didn't even have a REAL friendship - face to face - and it STILL couldn't hide behind the darn screen! can you imagine? totally able to sit and edit your responses and be the "perfect" person - and you still can't control yourself?

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« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2008, 02:45:02 PM »

I think it's fair to say most nons that stay with a borderline have some unresolved issues of their own.  You're right most people with healthy experienced relationships will mostly likely bail at the first sign of craziness, if not take a really good look at the relationship and "pause" like you said.  I think most of us do see many red flags but we choose to ignore them.  Denial perhaps...

In my case i was made codependent, I'm not quite sure if i was like this all along or if she made me this way.  I was very naive early on, i felt like i could help this person or "fix" her, but boy was i wrong. You can't fix them, only long term therapy can do that.  Theres been many times early on the relationship that theres been a voice in my head screaming "GET OUT NOW" but i chose to ignore my gut feeling and believe that things would get better.  The alternative was obviously too difficult.
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« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2008, 04:57:02 PM »

Another thought occurred to me that media, novels, etc... .promote the idea that a prince can spring from a toad with enough love... .or that the knight can rescue the damsel in distress (or dat dress... .doesn't matter which dress 2)... .there is enough propaganda that buys into the fantasy that a person and their love and patience can change another person for the 'better'... .whatever that is... .

my ex used to say that I helped him become ''a better man"... .this is something that is promoted... .that with the right woman, all psychological issues will somehow go away or one becomes motivated to be positive... .he obviously was disappointed and disillusioned that I didn't have those magical powers... .that any progress he made was entirely of his own doings and had very little to do with my presence. But when things started to go bad, I was also the culprit (more so). When a person has a fragile identity and has to absorb a pseudo-identity from others, it is a way to neither take credit nor take responsibility for what happens.

Likewise, I believe many of us quietly harbor the fantasy (or did) that we have some ability to make another person ''see'' how life can be better. The problem with that is that it puts the other person automatically in a one-down position (damaged/child/inept) and who wants to stay in that role for very long? That's when retaliatory behavior comes to life and now the non becomes the victim. So this Prince Charming fantasy has basic flaws in terms of how we must respect others as adults and not rescuers (mommies) or victims (waifs/children/sick).

Okay I am getting a headache from all this philosophy. That's what rainy days do to me... .Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2008, 03:45:18 PM »

Thanks for the great post Kinetix - your story is so similar to mine and I'm sure to many others and it is also a great time of year to have a post like this to remind us of the danger of BPD as I am sure many of us feel weak in terms of our ability to ward off re-engages during the holidays.

I think people have said some really interesting things here.  I think what C2 said was a brilliant observation about all of us and our situations in terms of the insidiousness of their behaviour that only we are allowed to see.  It reminds me of that old cartoon where the guy discovers this singing and dancing frog and every time he tries to show someone else the frog's talents all he gets is a "ribbet" and people start to think he's crazy - Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

Also in terms of what C2 said about how we get sucked in and are then reluctant to give up, I had a friend make a very astute observation about human love in general the other day.  He suggested that when humans engage in love it is completely irrational - that love itself is a form of insanity.  We often stay with abusive, harmful people for long periods of time which makes no sense whatsoever in terms of improving our lives or chances for survival and yet, both women and men stay in such horrible relationships because we claim we "love them".  It's not rational.  Even healthy love is not really very rational - I mean ultimately we stay because love makes us feel good - well so does heroin but doing it cuz it feels good, even if it wasn't physically bad for us, still doesn't make any sense.  I personally tend to agree with this to a degree and I have kind of rationalized it in my brain (being the closet evolutionary biologist that I am) as being a very unique trick our genes or biology plays on us by generating such powerful and addictive feelings that cause us to both want to procreate (on a purely selfish level - as in sexual drive) and to then stick around and raise our offspring (this is where love comes in, making what appears to be empathetic behaviour appear) and yet it makes absolutely no logical sense.  So we are genetically programmed, like all other animals, to engage our sexual instincts and also specifically in humans the instinct of "love" has been hardwired in our brains for the simple reason that we stick around and raise our children and support our families.  In other words it is necessary for our own brains or biology to trick us into falling in love so that we continue to reproduce as well as raise our offspring and thus pass on and evolve our genetic material.

People with BPD have poor emotional regulation (I mean this is really what the disease is) so I think this is why the normal ups and downs of any relationship are immensely exaggerated with them, simply because their emotions drive their thinking far more than logic or fact or rational discourse.  When I read people in other posts claiming that their BPD never loved them it really bothers me because I believe they do love and are completely capable of loving.  The problem though is that the normal emotions involved with love cause them to do crazy things and express insane emotional outbursts centred around jealousy and abandonment fears.  If they didn't love you they wouldn't hate you when they are upset - they would simply be indifferent.  We only really feel deep hatred towards those we love most and whom we feel betrayed us or abandoned us.

I personally have accepted my uBPDexgf for whom she is adn how she is.  I also have had her out to my place recently to spend some time with her and her son and to give her son a gift for Christmas.  Do I wish everything was normal and we were back together? - of course I do.  Is it going to happen or am I going to be foolish enough to believe it could be? - no - of course not.  I cannot hate forever someone I have been friends with for many years and whom is overall a good person.  She knows she can't help herself and proved it to me this past Saturday.  She had grabbed her son's arm and told him to behave when we were at the mall (he did actually need to be told to settle down a bit) this Saturday and he started to cry a bit but clung to my leg when he did.  I patted him on the head a bit and comforted him and he calmed down right away.  At dinner she apologized to him for snapping and admitted to thim that she should have taken her meds before she came out.  To me this says that she knows how she is but does not know how to control it and that meds do help her a bit.  IF that's the best she can do, and accordingly to pretty much all of the research I have read it is, then I can at least accept that she has done her best to control her disorder and taken some level of responsibility for it.  As I often say, I can't hate an alligator because it eats people and I can't hate my ex gf simply because she has BPD.
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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2010, 07:32:34 PM »

We don't walk away because the BPD isn't obvious at the time, only in retrospect.  The push/pull dance, the splitting, the abusive behaviors, the gaslighting are all insidious.

In my situation, insidious is a really good word to describe how subtle the process was. But I can't discount the "all in" aspect of what kinetix called the "sunk cost."  It is like the gambling analogy- you dont really know when to walk away. You've invested so much- and there were times when things seemed to break even, but for the most part I was deluded in thinking that the bad was nowhere near as noteworthy as the good. I believe, as "soodone" says, that "average people walk away from the nuttiness but those that have old unresolved ''stuff'' are glued to it and try to wrap their heads around it."

That's me- trying to wrap my head around it- and worse, sticking my head up someone's ass, failing every time.

What did Chris Farley say in the movie "Tommy Boy?"

Tommy: [Trying to copy his father's quote] "Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's ass by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?"

Customer: [confused] What? I'm failing to make the connection here. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Tommy: "No, I mean is, you can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking your head up a butcher's ass... .No, wait... .It's gotta be your bull... .?"

David Spade: [embarrassed] Wow.

[It takes Tommy until the end of the movie to say the phrase correctly]

"I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's ass, but I'd rather take a butcher's word for it."

BPD is BPD... .You could stick your head up there and look around and get nothing out of it but exasperation and a waste of precious time.  So many of us returned to the BPD looking for answers- in effect, giving them more control of our lives. Now I know, there's nothing left to do but turn my back, walk away and take the butcher's word for it... .

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« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2010, 08:06:50 PM »

I have saved this and will faithfully read it first thing every morning. Thank you all that posted Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2010, 06:31:02 AM »

God, I read this twice. Good stuff. It makes me want to give a quick chronicle of my own situation. Maybe I will.
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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2010, 07:27:44 AM »

I read this and it hits me like a 2*4 between the eyes. I was doing folly and I should be glad I am out.
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« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2010, 09:52:09 AM »

Kinetix, thank you so much for posting that.  I am sitting here dumbfounded.  It's almost 100% exactly my story.  That's EXACTLY how my xBPDbf's and my relationship evolved.  The MINUTE I pointed out that I needed a slight bit more love or appreciation from him, he got "monster mean" for the first time, and it completely freaked me out.  It was all downhill from there... .

He just broke up with me 2 weeks ago.  

Wow.  I'm printing that out and putting it up near my desk at home.

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« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2011, 05:17:12 PM »

This is it - I finally got it.
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« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2011, 06:16:29 PM »

Very, very good old thread. Nice find!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  The similarities are still amazing me, but yeah... .that's really it. I bookmarked it.

You know what keeps in my head all the time? Why I didn't know about BPD and info like this before I knew her... .damn!  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2011, 08:05:16 PM »

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2011, 08:32:37 PM »

good post. Thanks for posting that to remind us.
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« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2011, 09:10:53 PM »

I have had a very challenging weekend and this really hit home. It described everthing I have been struggling with. Thank you so much!
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« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2011, 09:55:38 AM »

Man did this hit hard, my only problem is once you had exactly what you wanted, everything else is going to seem bland from this point on.  Granted it was a dream a fantasy, a play, but man in the honeymoon stage holy sht it was amazing.  Funny thing is before i knew anythign about BPD i said to her, i guess the honeymoon is over Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).
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« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2011, 01:19:41 PM »

This is a very good thread and hopefully it is helpful to those that are reading and participating.

The Roger Melton article was the very first article on bpdfamily.com (which was then named bpdfamily.com).  I found Melton's article over a year into my healing and I thought it was very helpful because it answered the question that I (many of us) struggled with - "How could someone be so head over heals in love with us and then turn on us with such contempt - often after we adored them and sacrificed and gave them what hey wanted?"  

Simple answer, there is an pattern in the BPD relationship where the view of the partner evolves from one of idealization (we are finally the answer to love and happiness) to one where we don't live up to expectation (the push and pull on both sides), to one where we have failed them (as we all react badly to the situation and each other). Our partner was looking for a solution to their long terms relationship issues and we failed to be that. 

As insightful as this article - it our most read piece and it is quoted all over the Internet - it has a serious downside to it.  It suggests that the actions of the pwBPD are calculated and malicious.  Typically they are not. This aspect of the article has brought us more letters of criticism over the years than the rest of the material published on bpdfamily collectively.  In all the reading and reflecting I have done over the years it is clear that most BPD behavior is impulsive, selfish and without thought for the consequences - hence the confusing self defeating nature of the actions we often see.  I pass this on only to help keep us all balanced.

Maybe you'd like to try... ? hmm... how to keep them somewhat happy lets see...

1. Be a complete doormat.

2. Never blame them for anything, even if they really are wrong.

3.  Validate every feeling they have at the cost of your own.

4. Give up all your own needs

5. do not expect to get as much as you put in

6. Do not expect to be loved like you love them

7. Do not ever disappoint them in anyway

8. Do not ever tell them they are wrong

9. treat them like children.

10. let them rage at you for no reason and take it.

We can all understand and identify with these feelings, but they reflect the weaknesses and cognitive distortions of a typical partner from a failed BPD relationship. This list is the equivalent of saying that the only way to make a junkie happy is to give him drugs and to let him steal from you.  These might be better labeled as enabling behaviors on our part.

Why do we have these distortions?  Many reasons.  Could be depression (74% of our members are depressed).  Could be weak dysfunctional bonding skills.  Could be other life issues - both chronic (NPD, codependency, low self esteem) or acute (just divorced, lost job, etc) that existed before the relationship.

Many of us land here and say - I did everything I could and they destroyed the relationship or "If she agrees to get help and change and I will support her because I love her" But the truth is probably closer to "they have serious relationship issues and we became enablers which was neither in their or our best interest."



What is left for us now is to truly understand how this jigsaw puzzle fit together and to answer the biggest question - how do I go forward and not carry or repeat this dysfunction in another relationship.  This is a big deal.  I have read hundreds of threads of members going on to recycle back into the relationship when they should have known better (but didn't because they focused on the pwBPD issues), repeated these problems in a new relationship (sometimes not as strongly, sometimes worse), or get involved with a relatively healthy partner and ground that relationship down.

This is it - I finally got it.

The answers are not all that complex, but it takes many of us a longtime to learn them.    Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2011, 02:00:38 PM »

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im with you all the way except the last part where you mention the jigsaw.

Ok can you please explain to me how we are enablers?

Also why are we dysfunctional when all we wanted was to have happy and healthy relationship?

Also kinetix list clearly is what we would have to do stay with them ... yes?

I can not see how we were enablers... Am i being thick here ?
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« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2011, 02:18:53 PM »

 Hi! Joop,

Also why are we dysfunctional when all we wanted was to have happy and healthy relationship?

Hint: Which word is an extreme in your sentence?

Also kinetix list clearly is what we would have to do stay with them ... yes?

It is a good list helping you to walk on egg-shells and avoid giving feedback. Emotional regulation in the end is about regulation and regulation relies on?

I can not see how we were enablers... Am i being thick here ?

Nope, you are not thick. But there may still be some thick FOG clouds
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« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2011, 03:18:52 PM »

You may not be exactly getting it yet, but it takes time for each of to process our Self Inquiry in our own way.  It certainly took me a while and I went down some nonproductive paths in the process.  Most others than I have spoken to needed a lot of time and also went down some nonproductive paths.  Be patient with yourself.  The most important thing is to keep reaching out by asking the questions and pay particular attention to members that are a little further along the healing path then yourself.

why are we dysfunctional when all we wanted was to have happy and healthy relationship?

To further the junkie analogy, when a junkie needs a fix (dysfunctional mode) he sweettalks, pleads, begs, does whatever it takes to "protect himself" (i.e., getting the drug).  If I gave him what he asked for because I was seeking a good relationship with him, his approval and his validation -  I would be misguided and really just enabling his addiction.

Also kinetix list clearly is what we would have to do stay with them ... yes?

No. If you took the family connections course that was developed at Harvard for families of pwBPD, you would not find that list anywhere.  A person with BPD needs structure (not a doormat), strength with patience (not someone needing validation), and other things that are better discussed on the staying board.   Smiling (click to insert in post)  

im with you all the way except the last part where you mention the jigsaw.

Look at Self Inquiry (the jigsaw puzzle) this way.  If you had a 9 piece jigsaw puzzle and you had 8 pieces of the puzzle that accurately represented what was going on in your partner part of the relationship, you could fit them altogether and then see what your part in the relationship.



But if we have an unrealistic understanding based of your partner based on urban myths and your own cognitive distortions (from being wounded in the relationship) - it is very hard to figure out our "puzzle "part.  Self Inquiry (understanding the jigsaw puzzle) is important and hard - we have to get past our own misconceptions of our partner and our relationship (which are often formed during the anger stage of the 5 phases of grieving) to really see the puzzle parts.  

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« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2011, 03:40:58 PM »

im with you all the way except the last part where you mention the jigsaw.

Ok can you please explain to me how we are enablers?

By definition? Enble means:

1. to make able; give power, means, competence, or ability to; authorize:

2. to make possible or easy

as such,  specifically, what are some of your enabling actions that lead to the BPD high conflict relationship.  Keep in mind, these actions are not labeled as good or bad or have any judgement - they are simply actions that enable the high conflict behavior in the BPD relationship - what were some of yours?

Also why are we dysfunctional when all we wanted was to have happy and healthy relationship?

we are not dysfunctional for having the relationship; we are dysfunctional when we had signs early on that this was not a happy and healthy relationship but we made excuses and stuck it out any way.

you are not being thick at all - you are trying to understand.  Try looking at it as more as a cause/effect relationship and not so much as a right/wrong or good/bad - what actions by you (whether intended to cause the effect or not is irrelevent) enabled your ex to think her behaviour was appropriate?
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« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2011, 03:54:27 PM »

Im going to have to get my head round what you guys have said, there is lots there to work out, end of the day i am just an average guy from the north of england and this very deep.

All i can say is i should have walked away at the first cheating. Actually the first time her selfishness appeared, so i guess even though i kicked and screamed so to speak at her behaviour and how she treated me, hanging around still to her said ' well yeh joop kicks and screams but he is still here so i guess i can do it again'

why did i stay... .I didnt want to lose her, she was all i wanted because my heart ruled my head. Scared of being on my own , so anything was better than that, felt a failure coz my marriage failed, wanted to have a family feeling again... oops eh

now i dont need any of the above but would like some of the above... Lightbulb!
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« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2011, 04:09:05 PM »

Im going to have to get my head round what you guys have said, there is lots there to work out, end of the day i am just an average guy from the north of england and this very deep.

All i can say is i should have walked away at the first cheating. Actually the first time her selfishness appeared, so i guess even though i kicked and screamed so to speak at her behaviour and how she treated me, hanging around still to her said ' well yeh joop kicks and screams but he is still here so i guess i can do it again'

why did i stay... .I didnt want to lose her, she was all i wanted because my heart ruled my head. Scared of being on my own , so anything was better than that, felt a failure coz my marriage failed, wanted to have a family feeling again... oops eh

now i dont need any of the above but would like some of the above... Lightbulb!

Guess what Joop - I am not letting you off the hook this easy :-)

Seroiusly, pick 1 action you did that could be considered enabling?

I will tell you one of mine:  Ex would complain about her family, they would call 50 times per day - I would be frustrated that she had no boundaries with them.  So, instead of accept she had no boundaries and put up a boundary of my own - I put on my cape to save the day.  I would tell her what a boundary looked like and she would do it to please me.  I thought she was happy, I was happy - we look further down the road and SB is painted black, sure enough - SB was abusive and isolated her from her family.  This is now the perception.  How did I enable this perception?  I set her boundary rather than my own - if I didn't like her complaining I could have told her to stop it & figure it out on her own, but I wanted help her and her to love me.

Your turn
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« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2011, 04:20:32 PM »

I certainly did my fair share of enabling. Even the more basic things like actually buying alcohol for him - so that I could SET HIS BOUNDARY of how much he drank and me trying to control how much he drank - but still drinking all the same instead of letting him deal with his own addictions

I enabled in the same way Seeking Balance did, with his family situation. I took over the role as mediator to try to fix their relationship instead of letting him sort out his own dysfunction, I joined in!

Basically now, looking back I attempted to fix all sorts of errors for him. Work problems, money problems, friend problems... .so many things
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« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2011, 04:46:52 PM »

I certainly did my fair share of enabling. Even the more basic things like actually buying alcohol for him - so that I could SET HIS BOUNDARY of how much he drank and me trying to control how much he drank - but still drinking all the same instead of letting him deal with his own addictions

I enabled in the same way Seeking Balance did, with his family situation. I took over the role as mediator to try to fix their relationship instead of letting him sort out his own dysfunction, I joined in!

Basically now, looking back I attempted to fix all sorts of errors for him. Work problems, money problems, friend problems... .so many things

LOL - I make the martini's too, then got mad when ex drank too much.  My first trip to AlAnon woke my butt up to how much of an overall enabler I was & not just with the drinking.

Don't you find it freeing to just be able to laugh at ourselves in this?

It doesn't take away the grief, but it is kinda freeing to see our part in the play.
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« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2011, 05:11:51 PM »

It is funny in a way, but as a parent I had a shock. I cannot fix or control my children. I think I was under the illusion that that is what parenting is about. I was parenting my ex, and parenting my actual children.

Now I wouldn't say control in a negative way (although it is a negative word entirely), I mean more that I can't get them to turn out the way I want them to. I can't fix their friendships when they go wrong. I can't fix their moods. I can't fix their fears. I can't get them to see things from my point of view. I can offer some of those things, and I can offer solutions, but I can't DO any of them.

I really had to take a step back from my big, fat enabling remote control. Hell, I even tried to control my mother and sister, with the belief I was helping them out. I enabled my mother to do pretty much nothing at all for a few good years, until I took a step back and she had to sort herself out. I gather I was pretty patronising ;p

At the root of it doesn't come that I want praise. I want the best for people. I want to help. I don't ever want thanks for it, I just want everyone to have a happy life, get along and it all be fine. I love people and want to show them that I do, by helping them. I am a natural helper, but I have to know where to draw that massive line and let them work things out for themselves.
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« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2011, 09:44:09 AM »

I recently read somewhere where someone suggested that we mistakenly follow our "gut" and ignore our logic and sensibilities.  I believe this is a gross simplification and I think is actually a bit backwards.  I believe our "gut" is really innate human instinct (something which has been brushed aside by blank slate psychology theorists for decades).  When we are first with a person with BPD we know there is something amiss but they are very good at spinning their madness to sound logical.  So our conscious brains are somewhat buying into their strange logic because we have likely never met anyone before who is this way and then we start to blame ourselves for not understanding or miscommunicating or excuse away their behaviours as "they didn't really mean that" or "they just said it wrong" or "they are just angry or bitter with their ex" (or whomever).  But it is our unconscious human instinct (our "gut" which triggers these "red flags" that we feel or sense in the back of our heads.  It is usually when we are alone later on or perhaps dreaming (where we are sorting out subconscious info) that we start to process that stuff we were processing in the back of our heads and start to realize there is something really strange going on.  Thus I think it is actually our "gut" or instincts that we ignore because we don't believe in the validity of them (again I blame the blank slate theorists who don't believe humans are animals and have built-in instinct) and yet we believe our "rational" consious brains which are actually trying very hard to explain away their thoughts and behaviours.

I think it is this process that perpetuates the dysfunction.  We try to rationalize how someone could be so messed up and not see the incredibly obvious (to us anyways) error in their thinking/behaviour/anger.  I know for me I still have trouble understanding how someone cannot take at least some responsibility for their actions and how they abuse others and yet can't see how this actually causes themselves the very turmoil and dysfunciton that they claim to be victims of.

They victimize themselves and sabotage their own happiness yet they truly and fully believe it is everyone else who is the cause.  This is complete insanity to me and perhaps why I have tried so hard to understand, fix, even perhaps affect some kind of positive change on this person (even though I know how hopeless that truly is).
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« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2011, 10:23:57 AM »

i guess even though i kicked and screamed so to speak at her behaviour and how she treated me, hanging around still to her said ' well yeh joop kicks and screams but he is still here so i guess i can do it again'

Basically, yes.

We can thunder that "you can't talk to me that way!", but if we just stand there and listen to it, then it's perfectly clear that they can talk to us that way. Because they are.
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« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2011, 12:49:56 PM »

I recently read somewhere where someone suggested that we mistakenly follow our "gut" and ignore our logic and sensibilities.  I believe this is a gross simplification and I think is actually a bit backwards.  I believe our "gut" is really innate human instinct (something which has been brushed aside by blank slate psychology theorists for decades).  When we are first with a person with BPD we know there is something amiss but they are very good at spinning their madness to sound logical.  So our conscious brains are somewhat buying into their strange logic because we have likely never met anyone before who is this way and then we start to blame ourselves for not understanding or miscommunicating or excuse away their behaviours as "they didn't really mean that" or "they just said it wrong" or "they are just angry or bitter with their ex" (or whomever).  But it is our unconscious human instinct (our "gut" which triggers these "red flags" that we feel or sense in the back of our heads.  It is usually when we are alone later on or perhaps dreaming (where we are sorting out subconscious info) that we start to process that stuff we were processing in the back of our heads and start to realize there is something really strange going on.  Thus I think it is actually our "gut" or instincts that we ignore because we don't believe in the validity of them (again I blame the blank slate theorists who don't believe humans are animals and have built-in instinct) and yet we believe our "rational" consious brains which are actually trying very hard to explain away their thoughts and behaviours.

I think it is this process that perpetuates the dysfunction.  We try to rationalize how someone could be so messed up and not see the incredibly obvious (to us anyways) error in their thinking/behaviour/anger.  I know for me I still have trouble understanding how someone cannot take at least some responsibility for their actions and how they abuse others and yet can't see how this actually causes themselves the very turmoil and dysfunciton that they claim to be victims of.

They victimize themselves and sabotage their own happiness yet they truly and fully believe it is everyone else who is the cause.  This is complete insanity to me and perhaps why I have tried so hard to understand, fix, even perhaps affect some kind of positive change on this person (even though I know how hopeless that truly is).

I agree  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2011, 06:49:25 AM »

This is an awesome thread. I've saved that to my hard drive, and will re-read it over and over again each time I'm in doubt.

Thanks very much for that  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2011, 03:48:05 PM »

Man... .

This thread made me really sad.

I posted on here Dec 2008 and two days later, after four months of NC, I was back in the ring for more rounds until this July. I was acting on impulse.

And hanging on to the idea that this man loved me to pieces but was mentally ill didn't make me stay out of obligation or guilt. It felt like that this was the ONLY KIND OF PERSON that I could ever be attached to. That "normal" people wouldn't 'do it' for me or would find me too eccentric or flawed in some way. I don't think I was aware of that at the time. I masqueraded with false bravado thinking "I can handle it"... .but I can't handle it.

When I hear of women staying with men that cheat and they seem to turn the other cheek, I am flabbergasted. I do not know how they do it without being emotionally tortured. Or open marriages for that matter. When I was told to detach emotionally from the relationship while IN the relationship, I had no idea how on earth anyone could do that and still be in a relationship. When I started to feel detached this time in the relationship, I hated that feeling although it was healthy for me. When I no longer care about what a person does and who with, I have equated that with loss of love. This is my blind spot. I am aware people can detach WITH love. I am not one of those people. I can detach, but the feeling I have then is not of love, merely acceptance. Maybe that IS love in a form I don't particularly enjoy or comprehend yet.

I finally felt that the most LOVING thing I can do is to walk away. I felt that by staying, detached or not, only kept both of us from feeling the pain of self-reliance and growing beyond old wounds. I hope, as the therapist said, that he finds his way back into therapy soon. But I can no longer stand there WAITING. The whole relationship was about WAITING. He would be late and I would be WAITING. He'd make promises that kept me WAITING. For what was I waiting? My Christmas wish when asked by my father when I was 8 years old was "that mom and dad would stop fighting." They never did.

So I have to stop that cycle. I have to do what my father and/or mother couldn't do. I have to set my own personal boundaries and respect them. I have to be self protective. I have to talk to my feelings and tell them "yes, it's heart-wrenching, it's painful, it's not fair, but you owe it to yourself to be treat YOURSELF well and that means keeping yourself away from people that do not have your best interest at heart. They may not mean it, they may have problems like you once did, but it is their responsibility to do something about it, NOT YOURS. You can love them AND walk away. You can think about them. Hell, you can even OBSESS about them... .but do yourself a favor and do things that are in your best interest. That's YOUR responsibility." That's my self-talk these days.

That's what made me feel sad today... .how unlovable I must have been feeling on such an unconscious level to ignore what was in my best interest. Not too different from the BPD, is it?

Peace

SooDone
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« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2011, 08:49:54 PM »

So I have to stop that cycle. I have to do what my father and/or mother couldn't do. I have to set my own personal boundaries and respect them. I have to be self protective. I have to talk to my feelings and tell them "yes, it's heart-wrenching, it's painful, it's not fair, but you owe it to yourself to be treat YOURSELF well and that means keeping yourself away from people that do not have your best interest at heart. They may not mean it, they may have problems like you once did, but it is their responsibility to do something about it, NOT YOURS. You can love them AND walk away. You can think about them. Hell, you can even OBSESS about them... .but do yourself a favor and do things that are in your best interest. That's YOUR responsibility." That's my self-talk these days.

That's what made me feel sad today... .how unlovable I must have been feeling on such an unconscious level to ignore what was in my best interest. Not too different from the BPD, is it?

Peace

SooDone

Priceless.
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« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2011, 08:59:48 AM »

Excerpt
This thread made me really sad.

I posted on here Dec 2008 and two days later, after four months of NC, I was back in the ring for more rounds until this July. I was acting on impulse.

SooDone - I have done the same thing to myself and felt pretty much exactly the same as yourself and I think still do.  I have been back with my ex off and on for years (originally dated in 2007/2008, broke up in 2008 and she then started seeing someone else, and then tried again in 2009 after that inevitably ended and since then things have just slowly faded into just a "friendship" but clearly more).  We still spend a lot of time together although we are not intimate anymore - it's like I'm a part time husband on weekends for her, her son, her dog, her family.  It's very strange really but it is what it is.  I even swore this February that I was getting out of it altogether after she took me completely for granted after lending her thousands of dollars last year for her child custody suit (she has paid it all back so no problem there) and letting her sister sleep at my place once or twice a week last year while she was doing her masters degree in my town.  I only started spending time with her again when I lost my driver's licence for a month in May due to my speeding from last year (I was living a reckless, stressful life last summer between the insane stress of my job and the fact I was dating a new girl as an attempt to once again break away from my ex's madness but I was soo confused because I was still in love with her - I felt like a clock that was wound way too tight last year).  I asked her if I could stay her her place in late May for a night and have her drive me to a conference near her house since I couldn't drive at the time (it was at the end of my punishment period and I got my licence back while at the conference).  But things started up again like they never stopped - she even came to my place on her way to a conference so I could watch her dog for her before she came back to get me for my conference.

I have felt exactly the same way though - that I am the only one who can handle a BPD person like herself.  I often convince myself that only I understand her because I understand BPD and I also truly see that she really is a pathetic person who is very needy and childlike.  It's sad because I think she thinks of me as one of her sons (she has a 7 year old son whom I think the world of) when in actual fact I think it is really me who ends up taking care of her.  I mean she always makes convenient excuses for me to come out like she needs help with her backyard or her garage or taking her son go karting or helping her parents with something.  Unfortunately I take the bait and by my own admission often do the same thing - like last week I was planning on staying home on the weekend for the first time in months and Sunday came and I caved.  I called her and asked her if there was anything she needed me for.  I got from her son later that she thought I was bored so I figure she often has me over because she feels bad that I'm alone - however I know her and I know she really misses me.  She often calls and tells me how much her dog misses me or how much her son misses me but never says she misses me.  The closest she's gotten recently to admitting her affections to me is "I really do enjoy your company as does (her son)".  It's this silly little game we are caught up in (again).  She will e-mail me late in the week in order to spark up some communication which will usually turn into an invite or she will expect me to invite myself out to her place or something I think.  Yesterday she did this so we had some e-mail exchange over the course of the day and then she finally writes me late in the day how I was "NOT at my desk" when she called so I called her.  It was tough because I want to go see her this weekend but I can't do this anymore - I tried last weekend though and I broke down.

Yesterday she asks about my week and then proceeds to tell me about hers and includes some story about how her friend invited her to her house for dinner to meet her new bf (the one she cheated on her husband with which is incredibly hypocritical because my ex was cheated on by her husband and often goes on about how horrible that is and how men are all the same etc. yet here she is supporting her friend who's done the same thing).  So then she complains to me about being set up at this dinner party by her friend because her bf's friend was also there and how incredibly obvious it was and how she hates being set up etc.  I don't know how she expected me to react but I don't even bat an eyelash anymore at her complete innappropriateness.  I mean we are supposed to be "just friends" so I don't say boo, however we are also ex bf/gf so frankly, no matter what, it is just wrong to talk about this stuff with me.  I also do all kinds of stuff over and above what a friend does - like help around the house, walk her dog, play with her son, massage her feet and back, going house shopping with her and her family, go to her parents for dinner, hang out with her and her sisters, etc. etc.  I don't understand the weird dynamic we have - and she constantly feeds me barbs about how I am disappointing her now or how I have dissapointed her in the past.

So yesterday's conversation I just let go on until it became obvious that it was past my quitting time as I was saying goodbye to people while on the phone with her at work.  I think she expected me to ask what she was doing this weekend which would prompt her to say something like "well if you're not busy this weekend you can come out and help me with (whatever - fill in the blanks)" - the ususal.  I didn't this time especially since she has made it clear she is clearly single and available to her friends who are now setting her up at dinner parties etc.  The huge fight in February was about this dichotomy also - how she controls the relationship under the guise of "friends" but how I am treated as more than a friend - in fact more like a husband.  I actually had to change my mind about going on an overnight trip with her and her family this summer because it just felt awkward with her being so non-commital and yet having me around and so close to her family.  I think the thing that made me change my mind was the notion that I would have to get my own hotel room separate from her and her son (we would be staying in a hotel because her sister is going through a divorce and wasn't out of her house yet and it's awkward for the family when they stay over so they stay in a hotel when they go now).  She was actually mad that I didn't go after inviting me stating that it was "weird" that I suddenly changed my mind - I thought 'not half as weird as me, your ex bf, going on an overnight trip with you and  your family, and staying in a separate hotel room'.  I don't know what her family thinks - I'm told by her sister that her parents and other sisters really really like me' but that just makes our dysfunction even harder.

Anyway - I guess I am saying try not to be too hard on yourself because many of us still continue to struggle with our own issues when it comes to remaining in whatever semblance of a relationship we have with our pwBPD.  For me it is about loyalty, sharing my strength and patience with a person who clearly lacks these traits, my sense of obligation, my tendency towards addictive behaviour, and the difficult fact that I truly have fun with her, her son, her family etc.  I really do and I really do love her even though I tell myself over and over that I won't allow myself to and to just carry on as friends - it's just very very sad that she is completely incapable of any kind of normal loving balanced relationship.  And that's how I deal with it - I guess I feel I have found a role for myself in life (I'm still no remarried and have no kids of my own) and I, like you, crave love, respect, and physical intimacy which I dearly lack in my life even though she is a huge part of it.
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« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2011, 11:53:06 PM »

Soodone,

Great post. Thanks.
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« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2011, 08:43:07 AM »

and I also truly see that she really is a pathetic person who is very needy and childlike.  

Have you explored why you want to be with someone who you see as a "pathetic person" and "childlike"? Why are "pathetic" and "childlike" attractive to you?


like last week I was planning on staying home on the weekend for the first time in months and Sunday came and I caved.  I called her and asked her if there was anything she needed me for.  

So she wasn't even contacting you - you "caved" to your own internal pressure?
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« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2011, 11:29:51 PM »

Excerpt
Have you explored why you want to be with someone who you see as a "pathetic person" and "childlike"? Why are "pathetic" and "childlike" attractive to you?

I find this part of her completely unnattractive.  I am attracted to her for many reasons other than this.  I also wasn't so certain I wanted to be with her anymore and have been dealing with just being friends lately.  I have realized over the past couple of weeks that I have been out at her place far too much lately - to the point that I am missing home and at the same time if she really wants friends or more than that right now.

Excerpt
So she wasn't even contacting you - you "caved" to your own internal pressure?

Yes -  even if she invites me, it's still my choice to go or not (and I know it's unhealthy and that she uses and abuses me).  I gave in easily because I was lonely and bored at home and I missed her.  I also felt the subtle shift in our dynamic lately from painting me white to painting me black.

Thanks Jim
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« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2012, 05:02:05 PM »

Just read the article about evolution of a BPD relationship. Again. Of course it is spot on about what happened to my BPD fiancé and I.  He was the most persistent suitor imaginable  wanted to be engaged after 10 months. I was so happy and in love! Yes there were occasional rage attacks... But he explained he had social anxiety and always apologized... .in the beginning. Guess I was Sitting duck... .he was so much like the father I adored who was also from the UK... .my father issues I see now... .made me overlook the red flags.

There was a long clinger stage then unbelievable and quick devaluation at the time we had to move from our apt. He took that opportunity to move out on his own a month before Xmas. He then started phone games, Refusing to take me out or help me out  or have my back on things, telling me friends I had never met told him to leave me,and other games of devaluation... including telling me other women wanted him and he may take them up. I saw he was having the grass is greener syndrome and let him go. When he didn't call me for 10 days before Xmas  when we were supposed to be planning a trip -I made my own plans to visit my hometown, and while there dated an old friend... .assuming our relationship was over.  He Never called me at Xmas.

When I got back to LA and told him the truth ... .He became irate and told me "I cheated on him" I feel this was projection as it was totally unreasonable to believe the relationship was Still on still on under those circumstances. I explained to him he had just devalued me too far... I had to get away and did not want to be alone at Xmas. I had supported him for 18 months prior to the move out  while he went back to school after a lay off. During this time he started withholding affection and sex as a weapon so of was refreshing to spend time with normal people over Xmas who cared about me.

At the end of this conversation... with which I meant to honestly discuss the future of us given all this estrangement... .indicating I was still in love but could not tolerate his lack of commitment and coldness any more... he tried to push me off his porch. He would not even discuss the final business of a break up... .returning items, keys, separating property, saying good bye to my autistic son who was so attached to him. I had given a lot to this relationship and have been devastated by this harsh treatment. If the relationship was over... Why could it not be on a friendly note... .we had shared so much.

My question is... .how much did my behavior contribute to the. Honeymoon-clinger- devaluation cycle? I did not know much about being on the receiving end of BPD at the time and he refused treatment. (I demanded he go to a psychiatrist after many crazy incidents including abuse and vandalism- who diagnosed him with BPD/ASPD.). I expected him act like a GAS (grown ass man) and probably was too reactive to his crazy making, not validating enough and stood up to all his abusive behavior and set boundaries.was I wrong in this? Had I been better informed or more validating... could this devaluation stage have been prevented. I did love him so for the wonderful parts of his personality... and memories of how fantastic the early days were... .of which  he seems to have had no memory .

  He is a handsome man, once a ladies favorite in the Rockabilly scene had many short superficial relationships there. I'm a trial attorney, and our life together was more stable and subdued- what he claimed he wanted so much... .Just seemed to get to the point what we had did not provide enough kicks or attention for him. And I wanted a partner, a waverer. As me pursued me so vigorously and I was the reluctant one initially... .this kind of blows my mind.

Any words of wisdom, suggestions, etc.? Think I'll ever hear from him. And if so, then what? I am trying to start dating again but don't have much enthusiasm for it as my feelings for him were deep... .
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« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2012, 09:22:40 PM »

Hi marathoncathy

Wow I relate to much to your story.

The first thing to know is that BPD is an illness, so no matter what you did it would end in suffering.

You were only setting your boundaries and making him to know that he couldn't treat you in an abusive way. Of course he didn't like it (he is as all BP's, a child) but you had the right to protect yourself and your child.

My r/s lasted 14 months (he dumped me just 3 months ago). During the honeymoon phase he seemed to adore me, but even in that time he pushed and pulled, but I didn't realize that.

After six months he wanted to get married, but he was having problems with his job, he lost it, and we posponed the engagement. But when he returned to his job we had a stupid fight because of a movie we didn't finish to watch (I have to leave the theater because of a job emergency) and was the first time he devaluated me (affection retired). Could you believe that.

After that we recycled, spent go od times together, but he never proposed. He lost his job again, I supported him a lot and then one day he started to rage at me because of nonsenses, his car didn't work, it was my fault, his bad performance in sex was my fault, I said stop what's going on, he said I was cold (my family and friends and myself know that it was the opposite), we make up, all seem to be ok for a while, he   gave me flowers for our anniversary, came to dinner with my parents, acted very affectionated with me in front of his parents .

But next week he was saying he didn't love me enough, I said if you don't love me so let's break up, he said no, But 3 weeks later he dumped me even knowing I had a breast biopsy this week, and I was scared to death. He didn't care and he said bye  and justified himself lying he has to move to other city for a job and couldn't have a long distance r/s.

I'm still struggling to collect my pieces, in T and meds but I keep my faith that I' m going to be Ok and grow.
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« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2012, 09:42:07 PM »



"pay more attention to actions rather than words"

I saw this on one of the post above regarding paying attention to the persion with BPD.  The interesting thing is that my BPD friend says this all the time about evaluating other people.  He says he has little regard for what people say, but what they do tells them everything.  Of course, in his world this is often very convoluted, but he harps on it quite a bit.  I did all kinds of nice things for him, but he could only remember how I "let him down" in the very beginning.

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« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2012, 10:30:04 PM »

This is the 2nd pwBPD I have been involved with. Both have followed the stages as outlined in the article to A T! I mean it is so eery how spot on this article is. First involvement with a pwBPD she went through all the phases one by one as has the 2nd pwBPD I most recently dated.

The BIG difference has been my behaviorthis time which i am so proud of. but i think it has a lot more to do with finding this resource and doing exactly what I was told to do.

See the first time i knew nothing of BPD I just knew we got close she broke up with me and ran off with someone else. I was devastated and tried my damndest to get her back. Well after about 1.5 months of dropping me on my head she did come back. it did not work and i went NC.

THIS TIME when I realized what or whom i was dating I SLAMMED on the brakes and dumped her. Not in a mean way just sent her on her way. She split me black as coal and I havent had any contact on my end. She will every once in awhile like something on my Facebook page but hasnt tried to contact me. This 2nd pwBPD is very low functioning. I just went right on with my life this time unlike 1st time. WOW 1st time i was a fing mess. This time I have been planning trips, going out with friends, exercising, reading books, posting here if I feel like contacting her. Totally different approach on my end.
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« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2012, 05:09:01 PM »

I wish this post also included when you are with someone who does not rage, like a waif for instance. My ex never raged, she just gave me the silent treatment. It would be great for us that never experienced the "rage" part of our BPD exes.
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« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2012, 05:20:19 PM »

WOW... .I am gonna copy this and bring it to Councling... This is 100% how i got myself into this... .This is to scary.

I spent the next many years bouncing between these charactistics until i only had a ''shadow'' left.I dumped everything i ever had into this... .:'( :'( :'(... .
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« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2012, 05:56:06 PM »

GOI,

I wish this post also included when you are with someone who does not rage, like a waif for instance. My ex never raged, she just gave me the silent treatment. It would be great for us that never experienced the "rage" part of our BPD exes.

Ya know my ex raged a handful of times, maybe three, over the course of many many years.  The quiet rages I experienced were like yours... .internal, covertly aggressive, passive aggressive etc.  It made me question my reality quite a bit.  Those silent rages, like the silent treatment, being set up in no-win situations to generate conflict, or her projecting her anger/resentment onto you by behaving in ways to elicit these emotions from you are all ways to be a non-aggressive rager.

It's confusing GOI, it took me a long time to figure out what emotional abuse was and that it's a form of rage.  And it is just as destructive as physical abuse.

Have you checked out some resources on emotional abuse? 

GM
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« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2012, 11:52:00 AM »

Great topic!

Just what I need right now while trying to maintain space from my BPDso and avoid her attempts to goad me into going back, emotional blackmail, using kids to try and hurt me.

I'm only 24hrs out (this time) but struggling with the idea of going back vs building my life from scratch after 12yr RS. I just know there will be more to come, and the inevitable "pull" cant be far away once she realizes that pushing won't get me back.

Reading stuff like this helps. Especially when Im feeling weak and full of doubt.
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« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2012, 03:07:35 PM »

I met her off of POF(dating website). I met her two days before I was about to graduate from college in 2010. When she and I first started talking, she told me that she had "issues". When I had asked what kind of issues, she told me that she has a problem fighting urges to self harm herself, and that there was something that she would tell me in person(that she had been sexually assaulted by a guy that she had met offline and got pregnant and had a violent miscarriage bc of him). She was sweet, intelligent and a real joy to talk to. She told me that she had been engaged twice(one before meeting me didn't work out bc he was too controlling and the other bc he was a recovering heroin addict and had tried to commit suicide with her prescription meds). She did tell me she was seeing a T and a PSychiatrist. Two weeks after she and I had met, she was sleeping over my house and yes we had been intimant, her T(at the time) didn't think she would feel safe being at my house if she felt she wasn't sure she was ready for that type of affection(the intimacy) and then called the hospital which then released her over to a psych hospital. 

After that, it seemed okay. Then, she just angered me one day and I broke up with her. Two days later, we get back together, and then about 2 months after that, she had a relapse with the self harming ways, and she gets all defensive on me. I to defend myself in this time, told her to just go home. She goes home crying, leads her parents to believe that the bruises that they see on her are caused by me(she did this by not clarifying that I DID NOT do such a thing). I get arrested for domestic violence charges. Charges get dropped. Two months(around thanksgiving 2010), I pmed on her AIM and we decided to get back together. ... etc etc... .

So fast forward June 2012. I miss her terribly. She(or someone did) called me from her cell phone a couple of days ago, I was curious to know what she wanted(also I guess I can admit wanted to see if she wanted to be part of my life again). I called last night and got the standard vm greeting. I didn't leave a vm though. Tommorow(friday), I go to my first support group meeting for people with anxiety, depression. I wasn't fully aware how upset about this whole situation in its entirety till I started talking to my postman about it and could literally feel my whole heart shatter again as if it had just happened.

I will let you all know how it goes... .

MGL
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« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2012, 08:50:09 AM »

very good post, all so true. In made me reflect to the beginning. When I met my BPDGF I was going through a divorce. Of course she started making advances on the sly. Asking my coworkers about me etc... Once we started she told me all about her abusive past, abusive other men etc. I can remember her staring in my eyes as I talked. She was always asking me opinion about what she should do in her job and dealing with her son. I can remeber her saying " its like you can read mind" sex was off the charts. She wanted us to spend everyday and everynight together. After about 6 or 8 weeks she starts talking about me moving in with her, She gives me a key to her apartment, ask me to bring my clothes to her place. Never wants to be or go anywhere without me. After about 3 or 4 months she has to have space, dont think she can do a relationship again. blah, blah. After almost two years we are down to spending 1 or 2 days a week togther, sex is once a week if she is not upset, drained, sick or tired or stressed out from work. I have to almost beg to go anywhere with her anymore she always want to go with her friends or someone else. of course she is very smart she dont tell me she dont want me to go she just starts a fight and i will go to my home to let it cool down and sthen she does what she wants. Of course I question why I dont let this relationship go. why I still hang on. But this post was spot on.
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« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2012, 08:38:37 PM »

My BPDbf r/s started out more mellow than the described.  We met through a mutual friend.  He liked me right away, but I wasn't so sure about him.  He wanted to have sex pretty quickly, but he has erectile dysfunction, so it wasn't mind-blowing or anything. 

The great part was that he really liked me, pursued me steadily, which I returned in kind.  It wasn't "over-the-top" by any means, felt nice.  Seemed normal for someone who has a history of long-term relationships.  He gave me a drawer, wanted to meet my family.  He lives about an hour from me, but we spent every weekend together, and sometimes saw each other during the week as well.  We talked almost every day, which he initiated. 

I had already been through a few NPD relationships, so had read a lot about that, knew a little about BPD, and was in counseling, so I had my antennas turned on.  I saw some red flags which made me question if it could be a long term relationship, but thought I was dating a really thoughtful, super sweet, consistent great guy.

He never went through the clinger phase.

Then, one morning after dating this way for 2 months, talking about plans for the weekend in detail, my xmas present, etc. he had the ED, and blamed it all on me.  Painted me black as far as sex and romance went.  Said he liked me as a person, but essentially denied that we were ever in a romantic, sexual relationship as far as he was concerned!  Wouldn't even admit that I was his girlfriend - it was so weird! 

Said weird things, like he still wanted to get together for our weekend plans, and hold hands and kiss, but no sex as he wasn't, and never was, sexually attracted to me.  Somehow I never noticed that in the first 2 months... .  In these conversations, he also kept getting mad at me and raising his voice, but I couldn't figure out why he was getting so upset.

It completely took me by surprise.  I was devastated.  Completely confused.  Wondering what I had missed?  He seemed to turn into another person.

Needless to say, I didn't want to get together for the weekend.  A few weeks later, after some emails and talking and such, and returning my stuff, he said he still really wanted to be friends.  He said he'd be in town on Thanksgiving to have dinner with friends, so we decided to try to get together then.  He completely blew me off.  Didn't even call me/return my calls. 

Then said he was sorry and he would call to talk about it, blew me off for 2 weeks.  Then sent me an email saying he was sorry, but he didn't want to talk to me, and to "let him be".  Total silent treatment.  For something that he initiated... .  weird.  A phone call is too much when he is a facilitator for a divorce group and tries to talk people down from suicide and stuff?  Ok... .

He has a significant history of abandonment, had attempted suicide a year before we met subsequent to feeling depressed from his divorce, he is an alcoholic but doesn't admit it. 

From what I can tell from being on this site, I really got lucky that it ended when it did!
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« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2013, 09:20:14 AM »

this is a fantastic thread. And, as just one day out of my r/s it's a very good exercise for me to feel strong and stick with my decision (this time).

early on he swept me off my feet. I had strange gut feelings on the second date, but was online dating and trying to keep my mind open to all people (discernment missing in my decision making here). He was handsome. Charming. Interesting. Fun.  Something was still a little off, I could not place it, so instead I placed it in a drawer and closed it. Whoops.

Looking back, I ignored or made excuses for mounds of poor reactions. One night about 4 months into our intense courtship he was at my home, it was late, we had had a fantastic evening, the whole deal, dinner, fire, wine, fantastic sex... .  we stepped into the kitchen. He asked me "Hey, show me your basement" (My basement, at that time was a REAL unfinished, storage area which hosted a community of spiders, no heat, cold, and damp). I laughed and replied "no, not tonight, it's awful"

He said "Yes, let's go down there NOW.' I said: No, I'd rather not. It's dank and musty... .  next time, ya know when we have clothes on?" He began to escalate and began insisting. ( I had only known this guy a few months. This REALLY bothered me that he would not just wait a day or two?" He then said "What are you hiding from me?" I looked at him surprised and said "What?" Then he went straight to 100, screamed at me when I said a final "I'm not up to it, not tonight", (at this time I think my eyes were teary from his escalation). He walked out of the kitchen, grabbed his clothes, put them on, and stormed out yelling at the same time, slamming my front door, at 3am.

I was left standing there and remember thinking "NOTHING about that was normal". Somehow I felt bad for not wanting to show him, I wanted to know what upset him so much? I should have focused on his behavior responding to my reasonable response.

Truth is, I never got an answer other than accusations that "I had a problem", "I am insecure" "basements are basements." He accused me of reacting to his request in an extreme fashion. And blamed my reaction for the reason he left. Just not the reality. It was so "odd" and just plain wrong.  Up to this point in my life I had no experience with something like this and no idea where to even file my thoughts about it. I think they ended up filed in my mind under "misc". I thought "I really like this man - wth was that?" I should have paused.

I had FAR too many "wth? moments than I care to admit. All which are now blamed on me.

In truth, it would get really good for a month or so, enough to completely draw me back and have what felt like real hope. Eventually in a few weeks he had a problem with something I said or did, did not do, created a problem where there was none. Accused me of something. Or, I found a dating site and would confront him with it. (it's normal for men in committed relationships to browse dating sites to cope with their unhappiness, look for "options and choices.", didn't you know? Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)) I can own feeling not happy with the r/s and voicing my concerns in healthy and unhealthy ways due to frustrations and it would just add to the smoldering lava, no matter how I expressed myself.

Generally, I feel I was so reasonable that I reasoned my way into not trusting myself anymore. I knew better deep down. I will be learning why I let go of this self trust for this r/s as I move on. Looking back I am ashamed of myself for actually standing and trying to understand his thought process or figure myself out based on his criticisms. I let myself down. (I'm working on this with my T, Learn, forgive myself and trust myself - because I can)

As 2010's post explains well how I feel. I basically stuck my head up his ___ and got nothing out of it... .  and I'm feeling (today) I stuck it up my own for a good part of 5 years.

Excerpt
BPD is BPD... .  You could stick your head up there and look around and get nothing out of it but exasperation and a waste of precious time.  So many of us returned to the BPD looking for answers- in effect, giving them more control of our lives. Now I know, there's nothing left to do but turn my back, walk away and take the butcher's word for it... .  

Thanks much  for this exercise.
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hellnback
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« Reply #54 on: February 27, 2013, 09:29:27 AM »

I stuck around because that is what love is to me. I fell in love with her and started a family. I felt, and still do, that I made a commitment. I started a family and I love my family with all my heart. Love, for me, is complete acceptance for another. Yes, she was crazy, mean, deceptive and many other horrible things. But she was also good sometimes. She was the mother of my children and I made a promise before God and family to love her til death do us part.

I know she is bad for me. I knew I was being abused. I accepted it for the good of my family. That is who I am. I am proud of sticking it out for 15 years. I never broke my promise. She left, I'd welcome her home if that was what she wanted.

Don't be ashamed because you loved someone .who was bad for you. You did the right thing.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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MakeItHappen
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What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
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« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2013, 09:45:25 PM »

I think it depends on the persons/situation... .  I would say in MOST cases, the minute there are signs of push/pull , hot/cold, abusive behavior, which almost ALWAYS are seen within a few months at the most or until INTIMACY becomes apparent in the relationship, then a person who had healthy relationship experiences and is not a rescuer, etc... .  will seriously give pause to this stuff... .  and pay more attention to actions rather than words. I have to meet one non that didn't see signs early on, and who didn't regret NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THEIR GUT FEELING that something was incredibly wrong. There are those that walked into these relationships very naive also... .  that doesn't make them mentally ill, it is simply a case of finding out why, as an adult, one has this level of naiveity.

I hope my comments don't suggest a non is mentally ill. I am simply stating that in ALL relationships there are two people and both play a part in the dance. Looking at one's own part is the ONLY control we have over this stuff... .  looking at the BPD's part may relieve some self doubt and answer some questions, but at the end of the day, we don't have control over other people. AND it is also important to realize that we have emotional drives that dictate oftentimes what we do... .  and perhaps an overdeveloped sense of duty, obligation, responsibility, loyalty, etc.

Look, I'm a therapist and STILL didn't put together the fact that I was with  BPD... .  it does not show itself until intimacy triggers all the core issues. But I DID see behaviors that were ''odd'' or ''eccentric'', and I brushed them away. My gut said "WHOA''... .  my intellect said ''Give him a chance"... .  and I did. And another one, and another one. THAT is the problem. Where we draw the line as healthy adults in an adult relationship. If it was a CHILD then the tolerance of course is going to be different.

Interesting discussion!

SD

thanks SD for your thoughts/words. i was reading over old journal entries, just a few weeks into the relationship with my exBPD. i kept saying, "something isn't right." "something isn't adding up." but no, completely went against my gut feelings and moved forward.

it's been a VERY short time since we've been over, which, was never made official. it stings but, having this board DOES make it easier.

thank you.
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MakeItHappen
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What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
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« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2013, 09:48:10 PM »

Kinetix, thank you so much for posting that.  I am sitting here dumbfounded.  It's almost 100% exactly my story.  That's EXACTLY how my xBPDbf's and my relationship evolved.  The MINUTE I pointed out that I needed a slight bit more love or appreciation from him, he got "monster mean" for the first time, and it completely freaked me out.  It was all downhill from there... .  

He just broke up with me 2 weeks ago.  

Wow.  I'm printing that out and putting it up near my desk at home.

Exactly! The second, I pointed out anything to do with what was missing, it was over. Unreal.
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officer1618
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 391



« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2013, 10:55:48 PM »

My ex had her boyfriend write me an E-mail in her name which sounded pretty dumb. He used her account and her name but it was blatantly obvious because he was quoting books and using bigger words than she knew. I responded back to him personally and advised him to read Roger Melton's Romeo's Bleeding excerpt. I told him if he believed he was being a Prince Charming he might want to reconsider his character as King Priam. I told him I don't want to ruin his surprise for the twist at the end of his fantasy but enjoy the story as it played out. I never heard from him again.
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waitaminute
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« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2013, 09:14:23 AM »

Hellnback,

I think like you. There is a price for giving the love and care that we have ... .  And I don't mean the sort of emotional business relationship that is called "adult" love by psychologists. Men and women give their hearts and minds and even their lives to country, to companies, to ideas. It's not the best "deal" if you measure it with a balance scale. It's not psychologically "healthy".

Some of us make that sort of commitment to another human being. We know we do it for ourselves as much as we do it for another. No illusion of altruism. We try. We succeed or fail. We pay a price. In my opinion, it is the best that mankind can offer.

That said... .  Thank God for the support that our brothers and sisters give us here when we are wounded on our journey.
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VitaminC
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
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« Reply #59 on: December 23, 2015, 05:53:09 PM »

Excerpt
average people walk away from the nuttiness but those that have old unresolved ''stuff'' are glued to it and try to wrap their heads around it.

100% true.  which is why i think everyone involved with a BPD needs to get therapy or figure it out (about themselves).  doesn't mean you're crazy or you're a failure, but you need to figure out why you didn't just walk away. (which seems obvious, but it really isn't)

Upvote, like, ++, whatever. Both quotes are true and should be done in skywriting, neon, public service announcements, in fortune cookies, and annoying pop-ups that your browser AdBlocker can't stop.
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