How did your relationship evolve?

[Think About It...]

I have had a very challenging weekend and this really hit home. It described everthing I have been struggling with. Thank you so much!

[chiha]

I have had a very challenging weekend and this really hit home. It described everthing I have been struggling with. Thank you so much!

[nwpbroke]

Man did this hit hard, my only problem is once you had exactly what you wanted, everything else is going to seem bland from this point on.  Granted it was a dream a fantasy, a play, but man in the honeymoon stage holy sht it was amazing.  Funny thing is before i knew anythign about BPD i said to her, i guess the honeymoon is over .

[Skip]

This is a very good thread and hopefully it is helpful to those that are reading and participating.

The Roger Melton article was the very first article on BPDFamily.com (which was then named Facing the Facts).  I found Melton's article over a year into my healing and I thought it was very helpful because it answered the question that I (many of us) struggled with - "How could someone be so head over heals in love with us and then turn on us with such contempt - often after we adored them and sacrificed and gave them what hey wanted?"  

Simple answer, there is an pattern in the BPD relationship where the view of the partner evolves from one of idealization (we are finally the answer to love and happiness) to one where we don't live up to expectation (the push and pull on both sides), to one where we have failed them (as we all react badly to the situation and each other). Our partner was looking for a solution to their long terms relationship issues and we failed to be that. 

As insightful as this article - it our most read piece and it is quoted all over the Internet - it has a serious downside to it.  It suggests that the actions of the pwBPD are calculated and malicious.  Typically they are not. This aspect of the article has brought us more letters of criticism over the years than the rest of the material published on BPDFamily collectively.  In all the reading and reflecting I have done over the years it is clear that most BPD behavior is impulsive, selfish and without thought for the consequences - hence the confusing self defeating nature of the actions we often see.  I pass this on only to help keep us all balanced.

Maybe you'd like to try..? hmm.. how to keep them somewhat happy lets see..

1. Be a complete doormat.
2. Never blame them for anything, even if they really are wrong.
3.  Validate every feeling they have at the cost of your own.
4. Give up all your own needs
5. do not expect to get as much as you put in
6. Do not expect to be loved like you love them
7. Do not ever disappoint them in anyway
8. Do not ever tell them they are wrong
9. treat them like children.
10. let them rage at you for no reason and take it.

We can all understand and identify with these feelings, but they reflect the weaknesses and cognitive distortions of a typical partner from a failed BPD relationship. This list is the equivalent of saying that the only way to make a junkie happy is to give him drugs and to let him steal from you.  These might be better labeled as enabling behaviors on our part.

Why do we have these distortions?  Many reasons.  Could be depression (74% of our members are depressed).  Could be weak dysfunctional bonding skills.  Could be other life issues - both chronic (NPD, codependency, low self esteem) or acute (just divorced, lost job, etc) that existed before the relationship.

Many of us land here and say - I did everything I could and they destroyed the relationship or "If she agrees to get help and change and I will support her because I love her" But the truth is probably closer to "they have serious relationship issues and we became enablers which was neither in their or our best interest."



What is left for us now is to truly understand how this jigsaw puzzle fit together and to answer the biggest question - how do I go forward and not carry or repeat this dysfunction in another relationship.  This is a big deal.  I have read hundreds of threads of members going on to recycle back into the relationship when they should have known better (but didn't because they focused on the pwBPD issues), repeated these problems in a new relationship (sometimes not as strongly, sometimes worse), or get involved with a relatively healthy partner and ground that relationship down.

This is it - I finally got it.

The answers are not all that complex, but it takes many of us a longtime to learn them.    

[joop]

Skip

im with you all the way except the last part where you mention the jigsaw.
Ok can you please explain to me how we are enablers?

Also why are we dysfunctional when all we wanted was to have happy and healthy relationship?

Also kinetix list clearly is what we would have to do stay with them ..yes?

I can not see how we were enablers.. Am i being thick here ?

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for members with failed or failing relationships that want to detach from their relationship and relationship wounds. If you are still analyzing the decision to stay, please post on Undecided: Staying or Leaving All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[an0ught]

 Hi! Joop,

Also why are we dysfunctional when all we wanted was to have happy and healthy relationship?

Hint: Which word is an extreme in your sentence?

Also kinetix list clearly is what we would have to do stay with them ..yes?

It is a good list helping you to walk on egg-shells and avoid giving feedback. Emotional regulation in the end is about regulation and regulation relies on?

I can not see how we were enablers.. Am i being thick here ?

Nope, you are not thick. But there may still be some thick FOG clouds

[Skip]

You may not be exactly getting it yet, but it takes time for each of to process our Self Inquiry in our own way.  It certainly took me a while and I went down some nonproductive paths in the process.  Most others than I have spoken to needed a lot of time and also went down some nonproductive paths.  Be patient with yourself.  The most important thing is to keep reaching out by asking the questions and pay particular attention to members that are a little further along the healing path then yourself.

why are we dysfunctional when all we wanted was to have happy and healthy relationship?

To further the junkie analogy, when a junkie needs a fix (dysfunctional mode) he sweettalks, pleads, begs, does whatever it takes to "protect himself" (i.e., getting the drug).  If I gave him what he asked for because I was seeking a good relationship with him, his approval and his validation -  I would be misguided and really just enabling his addiction.

Also kinetix list clearly is what we would have to do stay with them ..yes?

No. If you took the family connections course that was developed at Harvard for families of pwBPD, you would not find that list anywhere.  A person with BPD needs structure (not a doormat), strength with patience (not someone needing validation), and other things that are better discussed on the staying board.    

im with you all the way except the last part where you mention the jigsaw.

Look at Self Inquiry (the jigsaw puzzle) this way.  If you had a 9 piece jigsaw puzzle and you had 8 pieces of the puzzle that accurately represented what was going on in your partner part of the relationship, you could fit them altogether and then see what your part in the relationship.



But if we have an unrealistic understanding based of your partner based on urban myths and your own cognitive distortions (from being wounded in the relationship) - it is very hard to figure out our "puzzle "part.  Self Inquiry (understanding the jigsaw puzzle) is important and hard - we have to get past our own misconceptions of our partner and our relationship (which are often formed during the anger stage of the 5 phases of grieving) to really see the puzzle parts.  

[seeking balance]

im with you all the way except the last part where you mention the jigsaw.
Ok can you please explain to me how we are enablers?

By definition? Enble means:
1. to make able; give power, means, competence, or ability to; authorize:
2. to make possible or easy
as such,  specifically, what are some of your enabling actions that lead to the BPD high conflict relationship.  Keep in mind, these actions are not labeled as good or bad or have any judgement - they are simply actions that enable the high conflict behavior in the BPD relationship - what were some of yours?

Also why are we dysfunctional when all we wanted was to have happy and healthy relationship?

we are not dysfunctional for having the relationship; we are dysfunctional when we had signs early on that this was not a happy and healthy relationship but we made excuses and stuck it out any way.

you are not being thick at all - you are trying to understand.  Try looking at it as more as a cause/effect relationship and not so much as a right/wrong or good/bad - what actions by you (whether intended to cause the effect or not is irrelevent) enabled your ex to think her behaviour was appropriate?

[joop]

Im going to have to get my head round what you guys have said, there is lots there to work out, end of the day i am just an average guy from the north of england and this very deep.

All i can say is i should have walked away at the first cheating. Actually the first time her selfishness appeared, so i guess even though i kicked and screamed so to speak at her behaviour and how she treated me, hanging around still to her said ' well yeh joop kicks and screams but he is still here so i guess i can do it again'

why did i stay... I didnt want to lose her, she was all i wanted because my heart ruled my head. Scared of being on my own , so anything was better than that, felt a failure coz my marriage failed, wanted to have a family feeling again..oops eh

now i dont need any of the above but would like some of the above.. Lightbulb!

[seeking balance]

Im going to have to get my head round what you guys have said, there is lots there to work out, end of the day i am just an average guy from the north of england and this very deep.

All i can say is i should have walked away at the first cheating. Actually the first time her selfishness appeared, so i guess even though i kicked and screamed so to speak at her behaviour and how she treated me, hanging around still to her said ' well yeh joop kicks and screams but he is still here so i guess i can do it again'

why did i stay... I didnt want to lose her, she was all i wanted because my heart ruled my head. Scared of being on my own , so anything was better than that, felt a failure coz my marriage failed, wanted to have a family feeling again..oops eh

now i dont need any of the above but would like some of the above.. Lightbulb!

Guess what Joop - I am not letting you off the hook this easy :-)
Seroiusly, pick 1 action you did that could be considered enabling?

I will tell you one of mine:  Ex would complain about her family, they would call 50 times per day - I would be frustrated that she had no boundaries with them.  So, instead of accept she had no boundaries and put up a boundary of my own - I put on my cape to save the day.  I would tell her what a boundary looked like and she would do it to please me.  I thought she was happy, I was happy - we look further down the road and SB is painted black, sure enough - SB was abusive and isolated her from her family.  This is now the perception.  How did I enable this perception?  I set her boundary rather than my own - if I didn't like her complaining I could have told her to stop it & figure it out on her own, but I wanted help her and her to love me.

Your turn

[sarah1234]

I certainly did my fair share of enabling. Even the more basic things like actually buying alcohol for him - so that I could SET HIS BOUNDARY of how much he drank and me trying to control how much he drank - but still drinking all the same instead of letting him deal with his own addictions

I enabled in the same way Seeking Balance did, with his family situation. I took over the role as mediator to try to fix their relationship instead of letting him sort out his own dysfunction, I joined in!

Basically now, looking back I attempted to fix all sorts of errors for him. Work problems, money problems, friend problems... so many things

[seeking balance]

I certainly did my fair share of enabling. Even the more basic things like actually buying alcohol for him - so that I could SET HIS BOUNDARY of how much he drank and me trying to control how much he drank - but still drinking all the same instead of letting him deal with his own addictions

I enabled in the same way Seeking Balance did, with his family situation. I took over the role as mediator to try to fix their relationship instead of letting him sort out his own dysfunction, I joined in!

Basically now, looking back I attempted to fix all sorts of errors for him. Work problems, money problems, friend problems... so many things

LOL - I make the martini's too, then got mad when ex drank too much.  My first trip to AlAnon woke my butt up to how much of an overall enabler I was & not just with the drinking.

Don't you find it freeing to just be able to laugh at ourselves in this?
It doesn't take away the grief, but it is kinda freeing to see our part in the play.

[sarah1234]

It is funny in a way, but as a parent I had a shock. I cannot fix or control my children. I think I was under the illusion that that is what parenting is about. I was parenting my ex, and parenting my actual children.
Now I wouldn't say control in a negative way (although it is a negative word entirely), I mean more that I can't get them to turn out the way I want them to. I can't fix their friendships when they go wrong. I can't fix their moods. I can't fix their fears. I can't get them to see things from my point of view. I can offer some of those things, and I can offer solutions, but I can't DO any of them.
I really had to take a step back from my big, fat enabling remote control. Hell, I even tried to control my mother and sister, with the belief I was helping them out. I enabled my mother to do pretty much nothing at all for a few good years, until I took a step back and she had to sort herself out. I gather I was pretty patronising ;p

At the root of it doesn't come that I want praise. I want the best for people. I want to help. I don't ever want thanks for it, I just want everyone to have a happy life, get along and it all be fine. I love people and want to show them that I do, by helping them. I am a natural helper, but I have to know where to draw that massive line and let them work things out for themselves.

[Awesome Jim]

I recently read somewhere where someone suggested that we mistakenly follow our "gut" and ignore our logic and sensibilities.  I believe this is a gross simplification and I think is actually a bit backwards.  I believe our "gut" is really innate human instinct (something which has been brushed aside by blank slate psychology theorists for decades).  When we are first with a person with BPD we know there is something amiss but they are very good at spinning their madness to sound logical.  So our conscious brains are somewhat buying into their strange logic because we have likely never met anyone before who is this way and then we start to blame ourselves for not understanding or miscommunicating or excuse away their behaviours as "they didn't really mean that" or "they just said it wrong" or "they are just angry or bitter with their ex" (or whomever).  But it is our unconscious human instinct (our "gut") which triggers these "red flags" that we feel or sense in the back of our heads.  It is usually when we are alone later on or perhaps dreaming (where we are sorting out subconscious info) that we start to process that stuff we were processing in the back of our heads and start to realize there is something really strange going on.  Thus I think it is actually our "gut" or instincts that we ignore because we don't believe in the validity of them (again I blame the blank slate theorists who don't believe humans are animals and have built-in instinct) and yet we believe our "rational" consious brains which are actually trying very hard to explain away their thoughts and behaviours.

I think it is this process that perpetuates the dysfunction.  We try to rationalize how someone could be so messed up and not see the incredibly obvious (to us anyways) error in their thinking/behaviour/anger.  I know for me I still have trouble understanding how someone cannot take at least some responsibility for their actions and how they abuse others and yet can't see how this actually causes themselves the very turmoil and dysfunciton that they claim to be victims of.

They victimize themselves and sabotage their own happiness yet they truly and fully believe it is everyone else who is the cause.  This is complete insanity to me and perhaps why I have tried so hard to understand, fix, even perhaps affect some kind of positive change on this person (even though I know how hopeless that truly is).

[Auspicious]

i guess even though i kicked and screamed so to speak at her behaviour and how she treated me, hanging around still to her said ' well yeh joop kicks and screams but he is still here so i guess i can do it again'

Basically, yes.

We can thunder that "you can't talk to me that way!", but if we just stand there and listen to it, then it's perfectly clear that they can talk to us that way. Because they are.

[OTH]

I recently read somewhere where someone suggested that we mistakenly follow our "gut" and ignore our logic and sensibilities.  I believe this is a gross simplification and I think is actually a bit backwards.  I believe our "gut" is really innate human instinct (something which has been brushed aside by blank slate psychology theorists for decades).  When we are first with a person with BPD we know there is something amiss but they are very good at spinning their madness to sound logical.  So our conscious brains are somewhat buying into their strange logic because we have likely never met anyone before who is this way and then we start to blame ourselves for not understanding or miscommunicating or excuse away their behaviours as "they didn't really mean that" or "they just said it wrong" or "they are just angry or bitter with their ex" (or whomever).  But it is our unconscious human instinct (our "gut") which triggers these "red flags" that we feel or sense in the back of our heads.  It is usually when we are alone later on or perhaps dreaming (where we are sorting out subconscious info) that we start to process that stuff we were processing in the back of our heads and start to realize there is something really strange going on.  Thus I think it is actually our "gut" or instincts that we ignore because we don't believe in the validity of them (again I blame the blank slate theorists who don't believe humans are animals and have built-in instinct) and yet we believe our "rational" consious brains which are actually trying very hard to explain away their thoughts and behaviours.

I think it is this process that perpetuates the dysfunction.  We try to rationalize how someone could be so messed up and not see the incredibly obvious (to us anyways) error in their thinking/behaviour/anger.  I know for me I still have trouble understanding how someone cannot take at least some responsibility for their actions and how they abuse others and yet can't see how this actually causes themselves the very turmoil and dysfunciton that they claim to be victims of.

They victimize themselves and sabotage their own happiness yet they truly and fully believe it is everyone else who is the cause.  This is complete insanity to me and perhaps why I have tried so hard to understand, fix, even perhaps affect some kind of positive change on this person (even though I know how hopeless that truly is).

I agree 

[DragonHeart]

This is an awesome thread. I've saved that to my hard drive, and will re-read it over and over again each time I'm in doubt.

Thanks very much for that 

[SOOOdone]

Man...
This thread made me really sad.
I posted on here Dec 2008 and two days later, after four months of NC, I was back in the ring for more rounds until this July. I was acting on impulse.

And hanging on to the idea that this man loved me to pieces but was mentally ill didn't make me stay out of obligation or guilt. It felt like that this was the ONLY KIND OF PERSON that I could ever be attached to. That "normal" people wouldn't 'do it' for me or would find me too eccentric or flawed in some way. I don't think I was aware of that at the time. I masqueraded with false bravado thinking "I can handle it"...but I can't handle it.

When I hear of women staying with men that cheat and they seem to turn the other cheek, I am flabbergasted. I do not know how they do it without being emotionally tortured. Or open marriages for that matter. When I was told to detach emotionally from the relationship while IN the relationship, I had no idea how on earth anyone could do that and still be in a relationship. When I started to feel detached this time in the relationship, I hated that feeling although it was healthy for me. When I no longer care about what a person does and who with, I have equated that with loss of love. This is my blind spot. I am aware people can detach WITH love. I am not one of those people. I can detach, but the feeling I have then is not of love, merely acceptance. Maybe that IS love in a form I don't particularly enjoy or comprehend yet.

I finally felt that the most LOVING thing I can do is to walk away. I felt that by staying, detached or not, only kept both of us from feeling the pain of self-reliance and growing beyond old wounds. I hope, as the therapist said, that he finds his way back into therapy soon. But I can no longer stand there WAITING. The whole relationship was about WAITING. He would be late and I would be WAITING. He'd make promises that kept me WAITING. For what was I waiting? My Christmas wish when asked by my father when I was 8 years old was "that mom and dad would stop fighting." They never did.

So I have to stop that cycle. I have to do what my father and/or mother couldn't do. I have to set my own personal boundaries and respect them. I have to be self protective. I have to talk to my feelings and tell them "yes, it's heart-wrenching, it's painful, it's not fair, but you owe it to yourself to be treat YOURSELF well and that means keeping yourself away from people that do not have your best interest at heart. They may not mean it, they may have problems like you once did, but it is their responsibility to do something about it, NOT YOURS. You can love them AND walk away. You can think about them. Hell, you can even OBSESS about them...but do yourself a favor and do things that are in your best interest. That's YOUR responsibility." That's my self-talk these days.

That's what made me feel sad today...how unlovable I must have been feeling on such an unconscious level to ignore what was in my best interest. Not too different from the BPD, is it?

Peace
SoooDone

[Undertowed]

So I have to stop that cycle. I have to do what my father and/or mother couldn't do. I have to set my own personal boundaries and respect them. I have to be self protective. I have to talk to my feelings and tell them "yes, it's heart-wrenching, it's painful, it's not fair, but you owe it to yourself to be treat YOURSELF well and that means keeping yourself away from people that do not have your best interest at heart. They may not mean it, they may have problems like you once did, but it is their responsibility to do something about it, NOT YOURS. You can love them AND walk away. You can think about them. Hell, you can even OBSESS about them...but do yourself a favor and do things that are in your best interest. That's YOUR responsibility." That's my self-talk these days.

That's what made me feel sad today...how unlovable I must have been feeling on such an unconscious level to ignore what was in my best interest. Not too different from the BPD, is it?

Peace
SoooDone

Priceless.

[Awesome Jim]

This thread made me really sad.
I posted on here Dec 2008 and two days later, after four months of NC, I was back in the ring for more rounds until this July. I was acting on impulse.

SoooDone - I have done the same thing to myself and felt pretty much exactly the same as yourself and I think still do.  I have been back with my ex off and on for years (originally dated in 2007/2008, broke up in 2008 and she then started seeing someone else, and then tried again in 2009 after that inevitably ended and since then things have just slowly faded into just a "friendship" but clearly more).  We still spend a lot of time together although we are not intimate anymore - it's like I'm a part time husband on weekends for her, her son, her dog, her family.  It's very strange really but it is what it is.  I even swore this February that I was getting out of it altogether after she took me completely for granted after lending her thousands of dollars last year for her child custody suit (she has paid it all back so no problem there) and letting her sister sleep at my place once or twice a week last year while she was doing her masters degree in my town.  I only started spending time with her again when I lost my driver's licence for a month in May due to my speeding from last year (I was living a reckless, stressful life last summer between the insane stress of my job and the fact I was dating a new girl as an attempt to once again break away from my ex's madness but I was sooo confused because I was still in love with her - I felt like a clock that was wound way too tight last year).  I asked her if I could stay her her place in late May for a night and have her drive me to a conference near her house since I couldn't drive at the time (it was at the end of my punishment period and I got my licence back while at the conference).  But things started up again like they never stopped - she even came to my place on her way to a conference so I could watch her dog for her before she came back to get me for my conference.

I have felt exactly the same way though - that I am the only one who can handle a BPD person like herself.  I often convince myself that only I understand her because I understand BPD and I also truly see that she really is a pathetic person who is very needy and childlike.  It's sad because I think she thinks of me as one of her sons (she has a 7 year old son whom I think the world of) when in actual fact I think it is really me who ends up taking care of her.  I mean she always makes convenient excuses for me to come out like she needs help with her backyard or her garage or taking her son go karting or helping her parents with something.  Unfortunately I take the bait and by my own admission often do the same thing - like last week I was planning on staying home on the weekend for the first time in months and Sunday came and I caved.  I called her and asked her if there was anything she needed me for.  I got from her son later that she thought I was bored so I figure she often has me over because she feels bad that I'm alone - however I know her and I know she really misses me.  She often calls and tells me how much her dog misses me or how much her son misses me but never says she misses me.  The closest she's gotten recently to admitting her affections to me is "I really do enjoy your company as does (her son)".  It's this silly little game we are caught up in (again).  She will e-mail me late in the week in order to spark up some communication which will usually turn into an invite or she will expect me to invite myself out to her place or something I think.  Yesterday she did this so we had some e-mail exchange over the course of the day and then she finally writes me late in the day how I was "NOT at my desk" when she called so I called her.  It was tough because I want to go see her this weekend but I can't do this anymore - I tried last weekend though and I broke down.

Yesterday she asks about my week and then proceeds to tell me about hers and includes some story about how her friend invited her to her house for dinner to meet her new bf (the one she cheated on her husband with which is incredibly hypocritical because my ex was cheated on by her husband and often goes on about how horrible that is and how men are all the same etc. yet here she is supporting her friend who's done the same thing).  So then she complains to me about being set up at this dinner party by her friend because her bf's friend was also there and how incredibly obvious it was and how she hates being set up etc.  I don't know how she expected me to react but I don't even bat an eyelash anymore at her complete innappropriateness.  I mean we are supposed to be "just friends" so I don't say boo, however we are also ex bf/gf so frankly, no matter what, it is just wrong to talk about this stuff with me.  I also do all kinds of stuff over and above what a friend does - like help around the house, walk her dog, play with her son, massage her feet and back, going house shopping with her and her family, go to her parents for dinner, hang out with her and her sisters, etc. etc.  I don't understand the weird dynamic we have - and she constantly feeds me barbs about how I am disappointing her now or how I have dissapointed her in the past.

So yesterday's conversation I just let go on until it became obvious that it was past my quitting time as I was saying goodbye to people while on the phone with her at work.  I think she expected me to ask what she was doing this weekend which would prompt her to say something like "well if you're not busy this weekend you can come out and help me with (whatever - fill in the blanks)" - the ususal.  I didn't this time especially since she has made it clear she is clearly single and available to her friends who are now setting her up at dinner parties etc.  The huge fight in February was about this dichotomy also - how she controls the relationship under the guise of "friends" but how I am treated as more than a friend - in fact more like a husband.  I actually had to change my mind about going on an overnight trip with her and her family this summer because it just felt awkward with her being so non-commital and yet having me around and so close to her family.  I think the thing that made me change my mind was the notion that I would have to get my own hotel room separate from her and her son (we would be staying in a hotel because her sister is going through a divorce and wasn't out of her house yet and it's awkward for the family when they stay over so they stay in a hotel when they go now).  She was actually mad that I didn't go after inviting me stating that it was "weird" that I suddenly changed my mind - I thought 'not half as weird as me, your ex bf, going on an overnight trip with you and  your family, and staying in a separate hotel room'.  I don't know what her family thinks - I'm told by her sister that her parents and other sisters really really like me' but that just makes our dysfunction even harder.

Anyway - I guess I am saying try not to be too hard on yourself because many of us still continue to struggle with our own issues when it comes to remaining in whatever semblance of a relationship we have with our pwBPD.  For me it is about loyalty, sharing my strength and patience with a person who clearly lacks these traits, my sense of obligation, my tendency towards addictive behaviour, and the difficult fact that I truly have fun with her, her son, her family etc.  I really do and I really do love her even though I tell myself over and over that I won't allow myself to and to just carry on as friends - it's just very very sad that she is completely incapable of any kind of normal loving balanced relationship.  And that's how I deal with it - I guess I feel I have found a role for myself in life (I'm still no remarried and have no kids of my own) and I, like you, crave love, respect, and physical intimacy which I dearly lack in my life even though she is a huge part of it.

[OTH]

Sooodone,
Great post. Thanks.