DIFFERENCES|COMORBIDITY: Borderline and Narcissistic Personality Disorder

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT This board is intended for general questions about BPD and other personality disorders, trait definitions, and related therapies and diagnostics. Topics should be formatted as a question. Please do not host topics related to the specific pwBPD in your life - those discussions should be hosted on an appropraite [L1] - [L4] board. You will find indepth information provided by our senior members in our workshop board discussions (click here).

[Gowest]

When my ex dumped me I drank too much and wanted to die, but I didn't call him all the time (or at all) or drive by his house. I did stop by once to dump a box of things he left in my apartment outside his door but didn't see him or talk to him. He of course started calling me again "just to chat" after a few months. But I never called him and eventually changed my phone number when the "chats" became wearying. Though, being dumb and blind, I did give him the new number after I coerced him into returning the money he owed me after new charges showed up on my credit card for something purchased when we were still together. I was furious but after I got my money it was like, welp, whatever. What a messed up relationship.

I don't think my factual recounting of actions taken after the break-up shows much evidence of BPD on my part, personally. But I'm not a doctor.

[seeking balance]

Just an experiment.

You may THINK you are not displaying all of the BPD points (such as low self esteem, and frantic fear of abandonment, substance abuse, etc)

However, rather than go by your gut feelings (I am not!), write down in a clinical manner what exactly you did when you were abandoned. What steps you took - calling, driving by, checking up, texts etc.

Now look at what you wrote - see anything?

You have to take your emotions out of the picture. Facts only. You can then apply this to all of the 'symptoms' of BPD.

Remember most crazy people do not know they themselves are the crazy. 

Hi Bob,

There are 9 criteria to BPD diagnosis.  Most humans specifically under extreme emotional stress will show several of these characteristics.  It is the pattern of behavior over significant time, not a one-time big stressor (pstd) that must be observed.  Your point is valid in this context and one of the reasons bpd is so very hard for trained professional to diagnose.

I think this post could be triggering to many on this board; as such, let's all be mindful to not react (great answers thus far) and Bob, I ask you to be a bit more self-reflective in your questions moving forward in this post.  I am going to stress right now, I do not want to see anyone disrespectful or I will have to close this thread.

Peace, SB

[bob451]

I think this post could be triggering to many on this board; as such, let's all be mindful to not react (great answers thus far)

Triggering, that would happen to someone with emotion regulation issues. Now, an N or an AS would simply ignore this.

Spend some time on a bpd board (as I am sure you have mod), they don't view themselves as evil. The whole idea of someone just moving on days later, that's N and AS. That's someone that never invested. B, i suspect they can love.

My issue at this point is with NPD. B is super sensitive, N feels nothing. N can move on. B, gets stuck.  B hurts.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT This board is intended for general questions about BPD and other personality disorders, trait definitions, and related therapies and diagnostics. Topics should be formatted as a question. Please do not host topics related to the specific pwBPD in your life - those discussions should be hosted on an appropraite [L1] - [L4] board. You will find indepth information provided by our senior members in our workshop board discussions (click here).

[newworld]

Just an experiment.

You may THINK you are not displaying all of the BPD points (such as low self esteem, and frantic fear of abandonment, substance abuse, etc)

However, rather than go by your gut feelings (I am not!), write down in a clinical manner what exactly you did when you were abandoned. What steps you took - calling, driving by, checking up, texts etc.

Now look at what you wrote - see anything?

You have to take your emotions out of the picture. Facts only. You can then apply this to all of the 'symptoms' of BPD.

Remember most crazy people do not know they themselves are the crazy.  

You are not at all wrong here. However, a diagnosis of mental illness is not the same as dysfunctional behavior or bad behavior or FOO issues.

But, you are exactly right about a good way to clean up our own act and address our own issues.  Anything else is just EXCUSES!

[Randi Kreger]

The two criteria often cited at BPDFamily as "NPD" are "lack of empathy" and "portray a perfect image to others" (e.g., acting like mother of the year in public events with the family).  Both of these issues may just very well be accounted for in the definition of borderline personalty.  Empathy is key criteria in the diagnosis of BPD -- in the DSM-5 it will be rated from healthy functioning (Level = 0) to extreme impairment (Level = 4).  Mirroring (lack of identity, self direction) could explains the false image portrayal.

The overlap of the PD descriptions in the DSM IV are not all that neat and tidy. In a 2008 study, the comorbidity of BPD with another personality disorder was very high at 74% (77% for men, 72% for women).  Hopefully this be straightened out in the DSM-5 (2013).

Both BPs and NPs have empathy problems. I wrote about it in my NPD series.

I have every book about BPD for consumers on the market. Two are by therapists and one is by two "reporter" like people who have obviously gone thru the NPD ringer. The books by therapists are:

Enough About You, Let's Talk About Me by Les Carter
The Object of my Affection is in my Reflection by Rokelle Lerner.

The other one is Help! I'm In Love with a Narcissist by Carter and Sokol. If you get just one, get this one. I would urge the mods to review these or somehow put them in a place where people can see them.

[CaptainM]

Things such as:

• Impulsive and risk taking behaviour
• Self harm
• Suicide Idealisation

tend to be more BPD characteristics whereas NPDs will have differing traits such as:

• Believing they are 'special' or elevated from others
• Fantasise about power / get 'drunk' with power
• Deliberately take advantage of others

There are a lot of cross-over traits as well, and the chaos they cause to those around them can be very similar, but they're typically driven by different motives.

[Loveisfree]

Still trying to grasp the differences, particularly in relationships.  How can one tell when you are dealing with a narcissist versus a borderline?  I see that people on here can tell but I am still having much difficulty.  I posted a similar topic on the leaving board but I think it may be more appropriate here.

Thanks

[lurchlookalike]

This is some very valuable information. I have a family member that was diagnosed a Borderline decades ago but fits NPD 100% or very close. The uBPD in the family does have some very similar traits like severe verbal abuse beyond anything I've ever seen from anyone. Yet the self-centered non-concern for anyone but themselves clearly falls dead center on the uNPD. It appears that ALL interests are totally concerned with themselves, and they really don't care about anyone else. Hard to believe, and while sometimes there is lip service to caring about others their actions show that this is nearly nonexistent.

BPD does have some caretaking aspects, sometimes to a finatically dysfuntional degree which would never appear in the uNPD experience I've seen. Both can be very manipulative. The NPD really is much closer to a sociopath (APD) but the BPD could never be confused with that diagnosis. The NPD does however have a "hurting" component just like BPD which I don't believe is present in APD. That's what I've seen but as someone said it's not an exact science and even professionals miss this.

[healinghome]

perhaps their are no differencies, they are the same pd.  npd and bpd could be the same thing?   perhaps what we call bpd is just npd with a fear of abandonment?  hence the confusion.

because the more i think about it, the more i think they are the same pd.  what is termed a bpd waif, could actually be a narc with a victim persona that they subconsciously created so they can mask (from others and themselves) the real npd.

[Randi Kreger]

perhaps their are no differencies, they are the same pd.  npd and bpd could be the same thing?   perhaps what we call bpd is just npd with a fear of abandonment?  hence the confusion.

because the more i think about it, the more i think they are the same pd.  what is termed a bpd waif, could actually be a narc with a victim persona that they subconsciously created so they can mask (from others and themselves) the real npd.

While they have some similarities, they are not the same at all. Not even the American Psychiatric Association has laid out what is what. First they wanted to take it out for DSM-5 despite the fact that it is the best known PD, then they put it back in. Most clinicians can't define BPD, let alone know what the real differences are--I mean, they know the very basics, but they only know the treatment differences, not the concerns of family members. They hate treating BPs, but they don't treat N's at all. Of course the fact that N's don't present for treatment makes that pretty simple!

[O'Maria]

I think I have dated/lived with both types, one of my ex was clearly more Narcissistic, the other one a typical Borderline with huge abandonment issues. Both were verbally very abusive, and both became physically violent too.

The Narcissist had a better self esteem and was actually nice, affective and funny between the abusive periods, the Borderline guy was abusive every week and got irritated without any warning (I now understand it was dysregulation). He also accused me of leaving him, being nuts, having issues, being stubborn, when he was mean and distant and I had to leave to protect my ego.

Typically The BPD guy used Silent Treatment every week, isolated himself in his office, and the attacks just kept coming with no warning, there was no effort to restore any peace in the house unless I took full responsibility for his dysregulated mind and bad mood, so mentally I lived with a teenage son. The NPD was able to talk and express his feelings and that helped to clear the air but of course he expected everyone to show that he was special 24/7.

I really don't know which one is worse. They are similar, especially when it comes to abuse, and anger/raging. They don't understand they use severe verbal abuse and that it destroys relationships. I saw a counselor with my BPD who gave him advice how to communicate but he never learned how to be respectful or express his emotions. 

[healinghome]

While they have some similarities, they are not the same at all. Not even the American Psychiatric Association has laid out what is what. First they wanted to take it out for DSM-5 despite the fact that it is the best known PD, then they put it back in. Most clinicians can't define BPD, let alone know what the real differences are--I mean, they know the very basics, but they only know the treatment differences, not the concerns of family members. They hate treating BPs, but they don't treat N's at all. Of course the fact that N's don't present for treatment makes that pretty simple!

i guess we will respectfully differ on those opinions then randi.  the only difference i see are that bpd's attempt to live through others and express rage or depression at the reolization that they are actually separate, while npds are more aloof and a bit more emotionally distant knowing that they are separate to others.

but both are ego centred, serving their own emotionally unmet child-like needs, with the same results on those around them and both manipulate others to their own satisfaction, with absolutely no conscience for the affects of their behaviour on others.  i think the amount of discussions within and outside of institutions shows that perhaps pd's are trying to be separated, when in fact they merge.

[momtario]

What is the deal when people used to exhibit all of the BPD traits, and only one or 2 NPD traits, and now, exhibit only the traits of BPD that cross over with NPD (splitting, jealousy, etc) and all other NPD traits?

I consider my H comorbid, but is it possible for people to switch PD's? Or if it's not possible, yet they seem to, what is really going on?

Because 7-10 years ago, I would have sworn he had BPD, 100%. For the past 3-4 years, however, he mostly displays only NPD traits.

[argyle]

If I guess...a lot of BPD traits are typical dysfunctional coping behaviors.

Perfectly normal people will shift their coping behaviors based on what works for them.  (F'r instance, I prefer chocolate if it is available, but am perfectly willing to settle for crepes.)

So, I'd guess that PD people may tend to shift coping behaviors based on their environment.  If NPD works for someone, they'll stick with it. (Actually kind of sensible...aside from a few issues...smart NPDs survive better than smart BPDs.)

At least, after I started keeping firmer boundaries, BPDw's NPD behaviors decreased significantly but her BPD behaviors had a real uptick. The crazy flow is fairly constant, but the direction changes if you dam up a given section of river crazy.

--Argyle

[cocobell]

I read somewhere (can't remember where but it was online) that some BPDs can have a narcissistic 'shell', i.e. they maintain a narcissistic type persona until they are threatened or hurt, then the borderline traits come out. It's like using narcissism as a defence mechanism. It's different from having true NPD.

I'm not sure how true this is but it might explain why some people seem to be both. In terms of my ex/friend he definitely has traits from both disorders and they can seem to change dependent on the situation. He has seemed very needy and easily hurt at times, and other times he has seemed very aloof and arrogant, and he has spent most of his adult life without a relationship. I have a hard time believing he is NPD because of the high level of emotion he has expressed at times, however, other times, he claims he can't feel anything at all.

CB

[lurchlookalike]

Perfectly normal people will shift their coping behaviors based on what works for them.  (F'r instance, I prefer chocolate if it is available, but am perfectly willing to settle for crepes.) The crazy flow is fairly constant, but the direction changes if you dam up a given section of river crazy.

That's a classic, very poetic. I had to laugh. It is perfectly logical though, and the list could go on and on. For instance, I would prefer a Playboy Bunny, but am perfectly willing to settle for...well...ABOUT ANYTHING AT THIS POINT!).

I know, that was a foulred-flag.

[beyondbelief]

This reply is really more my own curiosity than any insights that I have.  The more I think about this topic the more confused things become for me. 

My X almost certainly meets enough of the criteria for a dx of BPD.  Not a perfect match most notably she goes from happy to miserable much quicker and stays miserable for weeks at a time nor is there any physical self-harm going on.  One of her sibs can cycle between  states and back in under a minute. 

I know many people who are almost certainly pwNPD.  My X can also exhibit some pretty strong NPD traits though not sure if she actually meets the criteria for a dx.  Her sense of entitlement is huge though she is in ways not like pwNPD that I know.  At times she is curled up in a ball crying over who knows what.

Here is one incident.  I had the kids for a week and completely X dysregulated over this.  After a few days she left a sobbing VM begging me to call.  The first thing that popped into my mind was her mother died.  I called and she was crying over how much she missed the kids and wanted them returned so SHE would feel better.  (BPDish)

I offered to drop them off for a few hours and that wasn’t good enough.  I offered to swap that weekend for the next.  Her response was to start screaming things like “No way.  They are mine.  Stop playing games and just do what I want you to do”.  My response was take it or leave it…she left it.  (NPDish)

Further complicating things is literally half her FOO have some mental issue or another.  Her father was ASPD.  There are several who are cutters, many with serious anger issues, one never married with 5 kids by different fathers almost before she could legally drink, a couple with major drug addictions.  Everyone plays the game of pretending everything is normal as in “Yeah Jane or Joe just got out of a week of inpatient treatment because insurance won’t pay for more, good thing s/he is all better now”.

Over time I went from completely confused by her behavior to certain it was BPD and now thinking some mix of N/BPD with maybe some Bipolar Histrionics thrown into the mix.  So education about PDs has taken me back to confused though in a different way. 

[lurchlookalike]

BB,

It's not an exact science so trying too hard to figure out what a person has would likely confuse anyone, particularly with personality disorders and even if you are a psychologist. I understand wanting to know exactly what you're dealing with though because it helps you get a mental handle on it, validates your own feelings, and provides insight in how to better manage the situation. I'm right there with you on all of that. It's just not completely possible to do this in each case and as you said I think many people have a mixture of traits, also it is somewhat of a sliding scale from minor to severe for each one.

There is some indication that the DSM criteria are moving to include NPD with APD so I've heard. I've seen, for an extended period of time in a very close family situation what I believe is an NPD person that was diagnosed with BPD. I've also lived with what I believe is a high functioning BPD but undiagnosed. These 2 people are closely related biologically. There is an overlap in traits, both can be verbally sadistic beyond just about anything you could imagine, both split into black & white thinking, both rage, and both manipulate others (particularly family).

The difference is that the uNPD is almost totally self-centered, with nearly all action done for self-serving purposes, many delusions of grandeur, no sense of obligation to return even the smallest of favors, a completely parasitic lifestyle, and a core of hatred which can be brought out when they perceive being crossed. BPD in some cases can even be eccentric caretakers which I don't think you would ever find in NPD since they are just interested in #1.

In a word NPD is BPDs evil twin if you want to think of it that way. I don't really believe that literally but just giving a quick way of relating NPD to BPD. I also don't believe NPD is the same as APD, with the main difference being that the NPD person is consciously hurting too, just like BPD. My perception of APD is that they have no real conscience to go along with their behavior and they are not consciously hurting at all, while BPD and NPD (to some extent) are.

[beyondbelief]

Thanks lurchlookalike for your input.  I agree with your statements.

I may be confused but it isn't anything life or lifestyle threatening.  Except for some legal and kid related things we live completely separate lives.  She is off my radar screen until she starts slinging crap related to our only two entanglements.  My guess is using your taxonomy she is a co-joined twin with the B side a bit bigger than the N side.  She is as she is and it really doesn't matter what it is called.  I sincerely wish her well though doubt she will ever seek real help.

[HealingHearts]

My T started telling me about BPD about a year and half ago but it took me this long to really get my head around the idea that my mother might have BPD.  Now in having made several posts Narcissism keeps coming up so I am starting this workshop today.  I am really thankful for this workshop and expect that there will be many ah-hah moments.  Thanks in advance to everyone who contributed!