BPD BEHAVIORS: Anger and Rage

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GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT This board is intended for general questions about BPD and other personality disorders, trait definitions, and related therapies and diagnostics. Topics should be formatted as a question. Please do not host topics related to the specific pwBPD in your life - those discussions should be hosted on an appropraite [L1] - [L4] board. You will find indepth information provided by our senior members in our workshop board discussions (click here).

[Skip]

What is the best way to handle someone that goes into a rage?

[Steph]

 When you are with someone who is truly raging, the first level of concern needs to be your own personal safety and that of your children or other dependant folks, including pets,  around you.

 When we are speaking of someone in a BPD rage, there is little you can do. The person is "dysegulated" and needs to calm down.

Will the person harm you or others? Get out or call 911
Are they threatening to harm themselves? Call 911
Are they throwing a tantrum? Leave. No need to provid an audience and often, these blow ups dissipate due to lack of interest.

You cannot regulate a person in this state..and it takes huge amounts of energy to try to do so..and it isnt going to work

So..
Safety first
Call 911 as needed
Leave the area
remember that only they can truly calm themselves, despite their pleadings otherwise.

Steph

[Gravityworks]

I concur with Steph; your first order of business is your safety and any children or other living creatures that are within the crosshairs.

Here is something I learned from a Radical Forgiveness coach. I learned it after the break-up of my relationship and only was able to use it once but I did notice a change in her raging behavior for the short time I was able to put it into play. (Alas, one of my lessons is to stay centered and not be reactionary)

This is the technique - Visualize a rose directly between you and the person, make it as real as possible. There are different variations on this. Visualize yourself sitting in and surrounded by a rose, or visualize many roses around you. Bend your knees slightly, breathe slowly and regularly, don't stare at the person but look slightly to the side. In essence you are softening yourself but also protecting yourself emotionally. I believe that this along with some of the communication techniques talked about in SWOE and I Hate You, Please Don't Leave Me, and other places can be effective for the short term. My limited experience showed me that this needs to be practiced before it is needed. In the heat of the moment it was hard for me to call on this rather than old entrenched ways of dealing with attacks and conflict.

However, with this being said, if the person is not willing or capable of recognizing that they have a problem or of seeking help well we need to remove ourselves. If there is nothing to rage against it will diffuse. I think it is like Aikido or Tai Chi one should not act in direct opposition to force but move aside. 

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT This board is intended for general questions about BPD and other personality disorders, trait definitions, and related therapies and diagnostics. Topics should be formatted as a question. Please do not host topics related to the specific pwBPD in your life - those discussions should be hosted on an appropraite [L1] - [L4] board. You will find indepth information provided by our senior members in our workshop board discussions (click here).

[joiesophie]

I'm glad that you posted this question - it's helped me figure out part of my panic attacks. 
My immediate foo (m, f, sister) all probably have ubpd. 
This explains why I'm terrified of people being upset, because the next level I'm used to seeing is being out of control and violent.  As a child, I didn't have any protection from my mother's rages, just what I could invent on my own.  Now it's safe for my body, soul and spirit to remember but my mind is trying to continue in its path of protecting me from the memories of the episodes. 
I'm working with a treatment team - and being able to talk about it and post to here makes all the difference.

js

[Ronson60]

When someone rages (outwardly) there is a clear distinction of what is normal expression of anger and absolute rage.  This is waht i would see during anger and rage:

Anger: Talking quickly, slightly raised voice, flitting between refusing to listen to me and asking me to explain and listening.  Always tried to look like he was being diplomatic, but still had trouble actually listening to me and understanding.  Would, at times end the conversation in a half normal way and say he would speak to me later.  Usually came out of this relatively quickly or could be spoken round in some way.

Rage: Absolutely out of the blue screaming/shouting, calling me extremely nasty things in a really nasty voice, telling me repeatedly how much he wanted me out of his life (usually F*** O** thrown in there) no listening to me whatsoever and i mean, not a single word, simply screaming over me.  At one point he actually screamed a question to a third party who was not actually there!  Crying hysterically, throwing things, hitting himself...  This would go on anywhere from an hour to two hours and sometimes he's stop, then carry on raging at me the next day out of the blue again...he could not be spoken out of this in any way, no matter what i said or did, it was blind rage.

The screaming to a third person was something that until this moment I truly believed that only I had experienced. One night recently, we were in the middle of one of his rages triggered over me once again reminding him of something that he obviously had not listened to me tell him when it actually occured. Something he does frequently. I have some info that he should be aware of, I tell it and while he appears to be listening he is usually somewhere else in his mind. Then when I mention it again he swears I never told him, that I just imagined that we had that conversation. Anyway, in this bout he was screaming at me and said something way out (to this day I don't remember what he said) and I replied "I don't know how God in heaven could allow someone to walk the earth with an idea like that." He then screamed to unknown third party " Did you hear that? He threatened to kill me." I was so confused and disturbed that I left the house to not return until the next day.

Another thing that frequently follows the raging is sobbing. He will ball himself up in the bathroom or a corner or the sofa and may headbang for a while. I have holes in the drywall several places thru the house where his head has penetrated. Then he will commence to sob. And I mean sob. Loudly and for as long as 6 hours sometimes. I feel very helpless in the face of all of this. But I am learning very quickly many things that I wish I had known 20 years ago. Thanks Hannahbanana for some validation.

[united for now]

Anger is an emotion we feel inside of us. It has no real target or need to hurt others. It just grows inside of us, fed by our thinking and judgments. It doesn't need an audience. If correctly identified and addressed, it will quickly pass.

Rage seeks to draw blood, or it's emotional equivalent. It needs to cause damage before it can start evaporating. Rage looks for an audience and a target. If allowed to escalate, rage can destroy and kill.

**** There is no way to stop a rage but to exit the scene ****

Knowing you should leave the area when being raged on - and following through on that action - are two different things.
Why do we tolerate such abusive behavior from someone?
Many of us stick around and listen because of the fear part of the FOG. We are more afraid of leaving and the price we will pay for that, than we are of experiencing the hurt of the moment. Think about that - we fear any future pain more than the pain of the present... We keep hoping that our loved one will suddenly "hear us" or calm down if we are good enough.

Learning to take a time out is important, and learning to do it in a loving fashion is even more important.
Our loved ones have a deep fear of abandonment, so if we attempt to leave in anger and to punish, then we inadvertently trigger them.
If our leaving is done out of love for ourselves and respect for the other, then we can do it in such a way that while they still may be triggered, the damage hopefully won't be as deep.
The difference is in our intent and how we deliver it.
"I'm f*cking out of here!" is vastly different than "I'm going to take a time out for things to calm down here. We can discuss this again later if you wish."

Learning to love ourselves enough to take care of ourselves - instead of hoping - will have a better long term impact. You will regain your self respect, and your loved ones too.

Due to a factor called an extinction burst, our loved one will most likely escalate their behavior in an attempt to regain control over us. Being prepared for this increased intensity can help you stay the course and stay strong.
Here is a workshop explaining it with a cute video to help demonstrate how it works in the real world.

US: what is an extinction burst and intermittent reinforcement
http://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

[Gravityworks]

Thanks United for now! This is the first I have heard of the extinction burst and it is the best explaination I have heard of my exubpdgf's behaviors at the end of our relationship! The way she increased the intensity and the meanness of what she would scream at me was absolutly amazing and I am still smarting from it.

It is such a mixed bag of emotions that I feel after going through this experience: anger that someone felt it was ok to treat me in such a way, anger, saddness, and frustration that she will be doing to this to her daughter and I have not found a way to be of any help, and saddness for the ex and the prison that she is living in.

[chewie]

I agree with the necessity of leaving the situation when a partner is raging at you. I tried to do this on a number of occassions, but she usually blocked the doorway, pushed me down (when standing from sitting, to leave) and changed tacks from raging to hysterically needy. We talked about this in counselling, and our counsellor supported her, saying I shouldn't be 'walking away', it only inflames her abandonment issues.

So, I stayed (in the fights) for a long time, and wore down to where I became a shell, a sounding board. Until it changed on me, then I was fearful of what I would do to her, I became very close to rage and violence myself. That was when I ended the relationship.

So, it is important to have a counsellor familiar with personality disorders, and the style of raging that goes on. I think the advice to stay was ridiculous, and dangerous.

[Skip]

So, it is important to have a counsellor familiar with personality disorders... .

A lot of truth to that.

I would add that it is important to establish the walkaway as a boundary... discuss (solicit) in a time of calm, removed from any incident, the importance of separation when these things happen and try to get agreement (or at least understanding) as to what you are doing.

It helps when the time comes that you need to step up and leave.

Rage needs a stage - take the stage away.

What about the "silent rage" that is talked about here... what works there?

[Steph]

I agree with the necessity of leaving the situation when a partner is raging at you. I tried to do this on a number of occassions, but she usually blocked the doorway, pushed me down (when standing from sitting, to leave) and changed tacks from raging to hysterically needy. We talked about this in counselling, and our counsellor supported her, saying I shouldn't be 'walking away', it only inflames her abandonment issues.

So, I stayed (in the fights) for a long time, and wore down to where I became a shell, a sounding board. Until it changed on me, then I was fearful of what I would do to her, I became very close to rage and violence myself. That was when I ended the relationship.

So, it is important to have a counsellor familiar with personality disorders, and the style of raging that goes on. I think the advice to stay was ridiculous, and dangerous.

  I also totally agree here...its one thing to hang with someone in the middle of a meltdown over a crisis and quite another to be a sitting duck to the frequent, severe, abusive and exhausting rages that come out of nowhere..and seek an audience..when dealing with someone with BPD.

 Its very important to take care of yourselves..allowing yourself to be verbally abused ( which is what happens when we sit there and take it) does NO one any good..certainly not us and in fact, is harming to the person with BPD as well...as we are there while they are out of control, and they have no reason to seek out other coping skills.

People should not be afraid to utilize 911 and other crisis  services, get yourself away from the situation, set boundaries and stay safe...certainly physically, and emotionally and spiritually as well. We all know that this does no one ANY good.

Therapists sometimes havent a clue when it comes to BPD and how the rages can be...frequent, severe, horrific and painful for all involved.

Steph

[Steph]

So, it is important to have a counsellor familiar with personality disorders... .

A lot of truth to that.

I would add that it is important to establish the walkaway as a boundary... discuss (solicit) in a time of calm, removed from any incident, the importance of separation when these things happen and try to get agreement (or at least understanding) as to what you are doing.

It helps when the time comes that you need to step up and leave.

Rage needs a stage - take the stage away.

What about the "silent rage" that is talked about here... what works there?

Ahh, the Silent Treatment!

  What works is not playing..in other words, if someone chooses to give the ol ST to you, let them..and go on with your life. Go have some fun. Find people that arent about being silent..get online, watch a movie, hang with the dogs, your kids, stay at work, if you want to...dig in the garden. In other words, if they dont want to talk, ok..whatever..that wont stop you from having a good hour, a good day, a good week.

Steph

[Hannahbanana]

I think the same as the last few posters, in that if somoene goes into a rage in front of you, get out of there.  Any time i experienced my ex's raging behaviour, it was over the phone and only once did he escalate from hitting himself to a sort of rage type episode in my presence, usually i would manage to stop him when he hit himself and perhaps that stopped any rage.  Even over the phone, the rages were very frightening, they had me in tears every time and had me petrified to say anything even remotely out of turn that may trigger him, for days, i literally walked on eggshells for a long time after his episodes of rage.  The time he flew into a rage in front of me, he raged in his behaviour, but strangely, he did not scream and shout, he actually cried and said things to me in a way as though not to let anyone who may be next door or outside, hear him..deliberately half whispering while he hit himself, used me to hit him and punched through a door.  It was strange in a way because i had difficulty knowing if they were all rage type behaviour because there was no screaming or shouting during the wrecking episodes.  Even though the episodes on the phone were clear cut rages because he screamed so loud and did not pause for breath while sabotaging my character/appearance/family/friends, the episodes in front of me were like silent rages with destructive and damaging behaviour.  I had to ask my therapist if she thought the silent punching things etc was raging and she looked at me as if i was crazy not knowing this, she said, yes!  She said it was rages, but also intimidation at it's finest!

[JoannaK]

I've wondered about this rage piece--and how or if it fits with my stbxh and BPD.  He isn't a yeller or vocal with his anger, though his body language and looks can turn a room cold.  I have felt raged at by him--in his silent way--though it didn't fit what so many here have shared.

 I asked my T this week if she considered my H abusive and without hesitation and nodding, she said yes--his anger was abusive (along with his control and manipulation.)  She saw and felt his quiet anger in a few sessions and said it filled the room and was powerful.   So, rage is not always loud and showy---it can be silent and threatening in a very real sense.   

Ahh, the Silent Treatment!

  What works is not playing..in other words, if someone chooses to give the ol ST to you, let them..and go on with your life. Go have some fun. Find people that arent about being silent..get online, watch a movie, hang with the dogs, your kids, stay at work, if you want to...dig in the garden. In other words, if they dont want to talk, ok..whatever..that wont stop you from having a good hour, a good day, a good week.

I used to call my exh the "king of the silent ragers".. Now was he really "raging" when he put on that stony face and demeanor?  Maybe.  He used to tell me that he had been an "angry young man" and he described some very intense angry behaviors.  I have thought that as he got older, he got control over his rages and learned to "turn himself off" when he started to dysregulate.  But he didn't quite deal with the negative emotions...  Instead he turned them against me.  Now he could immediately talk very calmly and lovingly to our son or he could immediately talk pleasantly to someone on the phone.  So he wasn't dysregulated in the sense that he was so angry he could respond appropriately at all...  just to me!  Whethere such withholding is actually a rage or just withholding is unclear and it may vary.  But it is very destructive and damaging.

I agree that it is best to just go about one's business.  I didn't do that wayy back then... I would beg and plead and be upset.  A very bad plan indeed!

Here is a Workshop on "Silent Treatment/Silent Raging":

[united for now]

Those who suffer from BPD seem to be able to separate their stuff into specific areas, as one of our senior advisors just wrote about. They don't allow their mental thoughts or anger to bleed into other areas of their life.

The begging and pleading and trying to get them to talk to you makes it worse.
People do what works and what gets them a response.
Those who like to "punish" will do whatever they can to get a reaction, so if they know you are hurt by it - they will do it even more.

Living your life as normal as possible is the key, in that it gives you a sense of control and power that your loved one is trying to take away from you.

[ennie]

Interesting discussion re: is it inability to process emotion that causes rage.  I have been notices the fact that the BPD person in my life does not seem to notice herself in the picture ever.  We see that as blame, but it seems deeper than just that she blames others.  It is like what she does is invisible, positive or negative.  Which would explain the rage more; perhaps for her, my anger IS totally out of the blue, as she has trouble perceiving what she has said and done that might trigger my anger.  There is a quality of innocence in her surprise.  And when she repeats back what I have said, it is always so out of context.  It does seem almost like a brain glitch, not just trained manipulation. 

My partner's BPD ex called a few weeks ago.  She started by saying that she was calling because she heard I had spoken on the phone with a possible therapist for her two daughters.  She gave no space for a response from me, but escalated into yelling for me to "Back off" and that I was damaging her daughters and her relationship with her ex, and began ranting and citing made up examples of other "bad" things I had done.  I spent 30 minutes asking "I am willing to talk to you about ways I could back off, but I need to know what it is that you want from me" and "You sound very angry, you sound angry that I spoke to the therapist.  Would you like to know what I said?  ARe you asking that I not speak to the therapist?"  More ranting and raging.  Finally, I became exasperated, and responded, saying that it was hard to hear her talking about my calling a therapist as damaging when she was willing to talk about killing herself in front of the kids, yell and scream for hours in front of them.  She was appalled that I would say such things (as well she should be, since it was the first time in 2 years of being serious with her ex that I was willing to address her parenting in anything but a positive light).   I do regret some of what I said, for various reasons, but the interesting thing was that in her mind, and the way she talks about the conversation, I called her and started to insult and say these crazy things to her.  She did not seem to register that she spoke with me for almost an hour during which she yelled, said I was damaging, told me to back off, said she wished I was dead, etc.; and that in that context, my anger was pretty mellow.  I did not scream and call names back, but I asked her to take responsibility for some of her part in her anger. She genuinely seems shocked and deeply hurt at others' anger, even if it is mild in contrast to her own. 

This makes an odd kind of sense in light of some of the intense abuse the person has been exposed to.  PErhaps absolute focus on the other so the BPD person can figure out how to avoid harm? Who knows. 

Also, a lot of the time it does not exactly escalate to "rage," but the behaviors she exhibits are ones most people would do only if feeling rage or intense anger.  But sometimes it lacks the heat in an odd way.  It is ranting and raving more than raging...but she might say things like "I wish you would die, that would be easier/"  She talks fast and furious, sounding more full of anxiety and anger, posturing more than raging.  When I play her messages back, they do not sound totally crazy or completely raging if you do not know the context.  Her anger would be appropriate, maybe not effective, as a response to me calling her work and telling them she is suicidal.  Something I would never do, of course, but that would inspire outrage and anger in most people. 

[twister]

Since I am relatively new to this disorder with regard to knowledge of I have a question.  
Is passive aggressiveness part of this disorder?
Can it be the predominant method of acting out or is raging the more dominant trait displayed?

[MindfulJavaJoe]

I totally agree with your percetion on this.

My BPDw alternated between passive and aggressive not to mention push and pull.

It does not take long ...one or two sentances of what most people would call normal coversation and she is in full on RAGE at me.

It is pretty scary when you first see it. Her family saw it at Christmas and were shocked. They thought that it was a one off.  It happens any time I am in her company for more than 5 min (but usually not in public).

If you were a stranger you would think butter would not melt in her mouth.

There was a time when she woul;d lash out and shortlyu after be the peace maker. ...interestly although she would come back to me I generally got the blame!

You have got to love the scale of their denial.

[Trillian]

Hi Twister,

I cannot give you a general answer to this, but in my experience with my uBPD relative, I have seen one form of passive-aggressive behaviour. In matters that concern the family she will sometimes avoid making decisions, even when she is told in no uncertain terms that she must voice an opinion. No matter how hard I press her on simple decisions she will answer vaguely, and so in effect she leaves the decision to the rest of us. That, of course, leaves her free to rant and rave against us no matter what the outcome -- which I sometimes feel is what she wanted all along. This may not be deliberate on her part, but it certainly is a clear pattern that I have experienced many times. I have taken to pressing her even harder in situations like these, as I refuse to have more abuse thrown my way for making necessary decisions that she has refused to take part in.

Regards,
Trillian

[Randi Kreger]

While a particular person with BPD might be P.A., this is not part of the BPD definition.

[peace]

I was wondering about that as well. Anyone know the relationship between covert/ hypersensitive/ vulnerable narciussism and passive aggression?