POLL: Why do fathers give up? - Edward Kruk, PhD

[Exonerated]

Hello All,

January 2010 will be 40 years since I married BPDw. In 1984 she told our two children then (the other two were born later) that I had another wife and another family in another city, and whenever I traveled for business that was just my way of saying I was going to stay with my other family. BPDw denied ever telling the girls this story, but both girls maintained it was what she told them until today. 

My two daughters didn't believe this story, and asked me. This opened a long dialogue of honest frank conversations with my two daughters, culminating with a long series of daddy/daughter dates, where they would dress up and on alternate weekends we would go to a restaurant or a movie, or whatever the daughter wanted to do within reason.

The main reason is that I discovered I couldn't talk with my daughters without BPDw loudly butting into the conversation, calling me names, liar, or whatever just to break up the conversation. So the daddy/daughter dates were for conversation time, and often we talked of problems with BPDw.

When the two sons were born the two daughters were old enough so they assumed most of the care responsibilities for the two boys. BPDw filed for divorce in 1994.

At that time I was told BPDw would get custody of the 4 children. I couldn't see my kids growing up with BPDw, yet the court was adamant the children would be better off with their mother...

So I go back to BPDw throw myself at her mercy, beg for forgiveness and she filed again in the summer of 2005. By then our youngest son was the only child still living at home. I packed him up and moved him in with his older sister and my son in law in another state, and enrolled him in the public school there.

Custody wasn't an issue in Michigan since son lived with his sister in another state. After the Michigan settlement was final, son moved in with me. My lawyer petitioned the court to give me full physical custody, with 50/50 joint parental custody.

Now I'm in the process of divorce in Texas. I have no children to worry about the custody of, since my youngest is over 18 and graduated from high school. This is how I stayed involved in my children's lives. It paid off, since I have a good relationship with all four children and my BPDw has a very spotty relationships with the same four. I am welcome to come any time I wish, stay as long as I wish, while she must schedule visits in advance and limit stay to 2 or 3 days.

Would I do anything different if faced with the same problem again?

I don't think any human should be required to put up with what I have put up with, but for my children it was worth the cost.

Cheers,
On_Parole

[david]

It's been two years since ubpdw ran away with the kids. She constantly sends mixed signals. I get to see the kids more than the court order but it is all up to her whims. Total chaos and no order in the kids lives. I see them most of the summer because of the court order and that still winds up in court. Last summer it took about two weeks before they were "normal". This summer my S6 is a mess. S10 is strong enough to be on his own (not an ideal situation) and by everything he tells me he sleeps in her apartment and eats dinner. He has no real relationship with her and his biggest complaint is she doesn't listen to him.  S6 has tantrums for no apparent reason and he took the majority of my time this summer. This made S10 act out like never before because he was jealous. How do you stand there and watch your kids go down the tubes because the courts give moms preferential treatment. I have stepsons and two have moved back home since ubpdw left. My relationship with stepsons is great. They have been NC or LC with her for the last two years. I can't protect my own dna kids. I am still fighting but there are times when you just feel like walking away especially when you see them declining emotionally. I am currently going back to court to seek primary custody and a custody eval which has never been done.

[fantasyman]

Skippy,

Thanks for this thread.  It's pretty obvious that fathers maintaining relationships w our children is absolutey crucial to their development into adults - even when doing so w the mom's isn't possible.  Ireally appreciate the opportunity to share my story, and hear those of others. 

My G's are abolutely crazy about their time w their father.   I get them every other weekend, and any other opportunity when scholl/work permits.  Their mom (who isn't BPD) is actually pretty cooperative w these opportunities.  My live-in BPDGF on the other hand, while she usually applauds my efforts to stay conected w my g's, she often makes negative comments toward her own S's father (S16 & S12) that encourage them to distance themselves from their father (who lives just across town).  Sure, he has his problems (acute ADD, new wife's bipolar, no job, etc.), but he's still their father.  He may be a little neglectful, but he's not abusive to them, & they really love & need whatever he has to offer them. 

A number of times, one of the  other of the b's has called me "dad".  While I appreciate that they recognize that I'm there for them, I always make sure that they don't forget who their father really is.  If they want to consider me a "dad" to them as well, that's cool w me.

I can certinly relate to the need for "date nights" w the kids.  GF's constantly interrupting my conversation w the kids. & she can't stand any attempts to bond w her b's unless she's involved.  She's even asked me not to talk to her b's about anything related to manhood, b/c she doesn't agree w my perspectives.  I just tell her "You haven't taken a single breath of your life as a man - I've been one for nearly 30 adult years, & I can relate to what your b's are going thru.  Still, if you want to rob them input from both me & their father, you & they will pat the rice in the end".

[jas3871]

I don't want to give up on my kids.  I would come home from work cook dinner and then be responsible for taking care of the kids because she had them all day and wanted to relax.  I know what it is like to care for my children as a sole parent as at times it felt like I was the only one.  I hope that I do win custody of my kids cause they mean the world to me and I will fight for them to have as close to a normal life as possible for their sake.

[myfreedom]

This is an excellent post.  I am currently in the process of divorcing my bdph.  He was a good Daddy when we were together but now he has decided that since I made the decision to divorce he is not going to participate in his daughter's lives.  He says that I can't have it both ways.  I can understand the pain but I can't think of any reasons why you would shut out your children.  It hurts but I can't control him and I must move forward for my children.

[justhere]

Hi Skip
I was in tears when I read this thread as this is so hard to me to even look at and I do need to find some acceptance and peace. I feel for all you fathers who are put in this position when the marriage ends as I have been there too. 
My relationship with my children's father didn't end very well and none of us was in a good way.  I had one daughter 16, pregnant, the other daughter 14, on drugs and my son 10, inconsolable. I know every break-up is different and most of time the children end up with the mother but I had to make the hardest and most painful decision in my life and that was to send my son to live with his father.
 
Giving-up was the farthest thing from my mind as by doing this I was doing what I thought was best for my son so that he would have the best chance. It was hard not to hear him coming home after school or to know who his friends were or to make his lunch and wave good-bye as he went off to school.  I did see my son sometimes on weekends and my ex was good with letting me see him on holidays but I still felt like a visitor in my son's life and now some other woman who I wouldn't even recognize on the street was taking my place.

My heart was broken again and again as I still yearn for these times that I missed. I knew though in spite of everything that my son was growing into a fine young man and now when I look at him I know it was worth everything to give him a healthier life.  I don't expect anyone to agree with me or even understand but it doesn't matter as I know I did the only thing I could do and although this is my one regret in my life, I would do it again in an instant.

justhere

[MyBigMouth]

I've often thought that there is a severe breakdown in family in this day and age. I right now can only speak for myself. Being a single mother with a restraining order against my ex, I do wish he would at least take responsibility for bringing three souls into this world and pay child support.  Im sure his mentality is f her Im not giving her any of my money.  In that statement I don't hear anything about his kids.  I honestly don't even want contact with his side of the family.  They have never sent even a b-day card for their grandchildren.  Im glad on one side that I don't have to try to explain who this person is and why they are not allowed to see them, etc.  Still I think they should be respectful, and think of the kids and I honestly think no one does.  They think about themselves.  I would rather let the house go to hell, than take out my frustrations on them.  It's better that mom gives 100% to them not the house.  I think the same applies to the fathers even when there is a rift between the bpd mom and the dad.  It should still just only boil down to the kids, and I think it's truly amazing what we are capable of when pushed to our limits.  Read my profile and you will see I am truly pushed to my limits. Im not g-dly in any way, I've learned I am so much stronger than I ever would have allowed myself to be if I wasn't forced to be for their mental and physical well being.

Men you should be doing everything possible for those kids.

[elishwind]

I am new on this site and see that there is a wealth of information available for me to begin dealing with my 'problems'. A little history:

My significant other was diagnosed BPD years ago before I met her. After a year or so of a on again off again relationship she became pregnant. She was killilng the fetus with booze and cigarettes, so in his best interest I allowed her to move back in to protect/control her drinking. For the 6 months or so before the baby arrived we had little if any confict. Within two weeks of his arrival, she began a distrotion campaign with her friends, pediatician, family, and social workers from the hospital. One evening, her friend came over and she pounded down two bottles of wine. I fed the baby and went to bed. I woke to her coming into bed with me and the baby crying. I got up to change/feed the baby only to find him not swaddled, blankets all around him but nothing covering him, he was drenched and had dryed formula on his neck and face. Calmly and gently I said, "we have to try to keep him warm at night so he sleeps better". This was taken as a direct attack on her ability to raise our baby. Her violent, irrational, and hysterical reaction (screaming and throwing things at me while I changed the baby)  resulted in her conversation with her Mother (BPD also)- who called the police from 400 miles away. I was taken to jail Breach of Peace. I havn't seen my son in 67 days as of today. I am devistated.

[survivorof2]

I want to tell you about a father that did not give up.

When his children were babies, his wife and kids were kidnapped by his uBPDinlaws (he tried to file kidnapping charges). When he did locate them, he moved to where they were living and sought to get visitation. He did get supervised visitation (due to lies of the uBPDinlaws and his now enmeshed "stockholm syndrome" wife). He only saw his kids about 3 times a year and sometimes as little as every 2 years). When he finally filed for a visitation change (when he hadn't seen his kids for 2 years), things started happening and his wife got away from her uBPDparents with the help of the police.

He was able to keep his sanity by going on with his life in many ways: he built a race car, he bought a home (in spite of paying child support), he had a support system, he dated, he refused to get enmeshed with the uBPD family dynamics. He knew he could probably see the kids more if he "played their game", but he refused to be sucked in.

Want to know what his son said to him when he could finally have unlimited access to his dad? "why didn't you visit me more?"

I tell you this story to encourage you to NOT give up on your kids. They DO want you in their lives. It is never too late to mend a relationship.

By the way, I am that wife that was kidnapped.

[Steph]

 My H went thru this in his divorce, and also a scathing, horrendous attack of parental alienation. She told the kids horrible lies, terrifying them and supporting them in their fear. She told the kids that he was 'dangerous', had 'issues' and ' it wasnt safe to see dad, but he is forcing you to..' She called CPS for made up stuff, which of course was found to be made up. Even so, it continued.

He threw in the towel, also., tho of course, continues to pay support. The cost of fighting this fight was horrendous and as the article mentioned, I dont think lawyers helped, either..only making things more acrimonious..

He currently has a healthy and well relationship with his oldest, who is now in his 20s. He hasnt seen his other 2 kids in years.

As both parents had BPD, this got super ugly. He went into DBT and has recovered very well and she is now teaching DBT...   

 Only time will tell with the other 2 kids and how that will turn out.

Its been .. and remains..a nightmare.

[AppleChippy]

I am one of the abandoned children.

My father had tremendous challenges to maintaining contact with me.  I do have a lot of forgiveness for what he faced and can only imagine his grief.  A lot of what this article describes, I'm sure is what my father has been through.

However, I have not, nor do I think will I EVER get over his giving up on me.  And it's an event that will NEVER END.

My parents divorced when I was 6.  I stopped seeing him around age 10 (and didn't see him again until I was 21).   Even though he stopped sending birthday cards by 16, we still spoke occasionally, and when high school graduation came around I still had a hope that despite separation and not seeing him for so long that he was still my father.  The complete silence from him when I graduated was deafening.  No call, not even a card.  College graduation, same thing.  Marriage, death of a close relative, buying my first home, the birth of my first child, first child's first birthday.  NOTHING.  After visiting him when I was 21, I tried really hard to reestablish a relationship with him.  But each card or call he ignored, each event he missed was devastating for me, often acutely so for months at a time.  One time his silence contributed to a major depressive episode.

I've read that a child never completely gives up on their parents.  Even abused children (check out the dealing with BPD parents board).  I'm 33 now.  His "disengaging" (which is such a sterile word for such a horrible event) began when I was 5.  It was only when he completely failed to acknowledge the birth of my child that I realized I had to STOP trying to connect with him for my own well being.  That was only 2 years ago.

But that doesn't heal what happened.  It just stops pouring salt in a wound that I don't think will ever completely heal.

As sad as a phone relationship would have been compared to the relationship we had when we still lived as an intact family, I still wanted a phone relationship with him so badly!  If he had been able to keep in contact with me, even just over the phone, check in to see how I'm doing, celebrate my accomplishments, share in my grief, things would be so much different for me.   I wish he could have let me reconnect with him after college when I moved out from my mother's.  Even THAT would have been healing.

How are you supposed feel secure with other people in your life when your parent gives up on you?  I don't really know.  All I know is that I work really hard to overcome it even if I've faked it a great deal of the time.

So, fathers, don't give up on your children.  They won't give up on you (even if they're angry, but they'll need you to show you'll work at it) and will give you chance after chance.  Take them up on their offers to reconnect.

[fantasyman]

AC,

That's EXACTLY why I continue to do what it takes to spend as much time as I can w my D's - even if it's just talking nearly everyday on the telephone. I realize that I have it better that many fathers: my ex understands the need for my children to have their father in their lives, and she generally works w me pretty well.  But in the end, it doesn't matter what hell we fathers (or mothers) have to go through; we can never give up.  Our children didn't ask to be brought here.  WE are the ones who did what it took to get them here, & WE are the ones who bear the responsibility.

FM

[fantasyman]

elishwind,

I just read your thread - I'm devasted w you & for you!  I know it's hard, but you can't give up. Don't break the law or anything, but all involved will eventually see the horror that you've been dealing with.  When that happens, you'll need to be poised and ready to be the parent that you were before that awful phone call.

[C C]

This brought tears to my eyes. I have resently started communication with my father after years of no contact. We talk every week through Skype and the first thing he told me is that he missed me and wished he had been able to be part of my life.

My father couldn't have access to me becuase of distance and conflict with my mother. He lives in Colombia and I live in California. My mother was very upset at him for getting married again. So the times he would call she would pick up the phone and start crying.

Now that I am divorced I do my best to have a good relationship with my exhusband. We are good friends and his girlfriend is a great person. He takes the kids everyother week and I've told him that he can take the kids more often if he wants to. My children can call him at any time if they need advise or affection from him. I always communicate with him things about the kids and I try my best to let him know he is very important in their lives. He is their father and will always be welcomed.

[SlipKnot]

Hey All

Been reading all your posts and just could not leave without offering up my 2 cents worth. I am gonna upset a few of you now...

I think about giving up and leaving every single day, because it is rare for a day to go by without some form of abuse or humiliation aimed in my direction by the wife AND most of the kids. I won't go into details just yet but, I am allowed to say "yes" and very little else without being subjected to scorn from ubpd wife, and commonly even agreement isnt enough to avoid her tongue-lashings. The kids have learned to behave as she does and treat me as she does, when she is around. I did not plan on having 5 kids, and I did not plant the seed for all 5, either but, I have never done other than welcome the new addition into my heart and work as hard as I can to provide for them all, whether or not I have enough to eat or a place to sleep. I always wanted to be with the kids and never once budged from my responsibilities as far as they are concerned. I never once made them settle for just child-support when their mother forced me from the home but, continued to pay all the bills and provide for all their needs as I always have. Over the last 5 or 6 years I have spent about 2 years living out of my minivan. Each time it happens, I lose something of my relationship with the kids. I am definitely a victim of PAS but can never prove it to the satisfaction of a court.

I knew ubpd wife was a mistake by the time my oldest was born but, that is too late. From that moment, I have been lying to myself and sacrificing my sanity and self-respect to be with the kids. I would have left the wife in a heartbeat but have stayed on and provided and fathered and hoped and prayed and lost the best part of myself over the 14 years since finding out I would be what I always dreamed of being, a father. A father stays, and perseveres, and sacrifices of himself, no matter the ultimate cost to himself, and that is exactly what I have done. That kind of attitude fits very well when the mother is normal, and the kids flourish and the family becomes strong. What about when the mother is only barely functional herself? When she is given complete control and authority over the child-rearing when she is barely more than a child herself? When the law and society in general tell her "Don't worry, we will help you, we know how controlling and abusive men are and how vulnerable you and YOUR children are."?

A couple years back, she planned to leave me with the kids and go home to England, where she is from. She told the kids about these plans and went through all the motions, right down to sending me off on a drive with all of them so she could finish packing in peace, only to change her mind (if she ever intended to really go) while I am driving back home and threatening to call the police because I took the kids without her consent to visit my parents, whom she hates. The whole afternoon I spent trying to come up with answers to the kids questions that would keep them from getting too upset while, at the same time, preserving their mother's position in their lives. I deserve a damn medal for that day; she would never have done that for me and has proven her willingness to denigrate me to the kids at every opportunity, and I cer

[SlipKnot]

(sorry, post got messed up)

certainly didn't feel much affection for her at the time, with 5 kids and bills to pay and very little support being offered and no idea how I was going to raise all these kids on my own.

Time and time again, I have stepped up for those kids; even their mother, because she is their mother. Now, they run to their mother and tell her lies about how I have been mean to them if I have said no or made any statement they don't like; they call me names, yes, including profanity (the oldest ones). I can't begin to count how many times I have been told "You don't even live here" "You're not my dad" "Its not your business" etc. Do you think that doesn't hurt? For 15 years I have had to listen to that from their mother, and I have to admit that it still bothers me but, it doesn't pain me. From the kids, though... And do you know what is the worst part of all this? It is starting to not hurt as much. I am beginning to lose my capacity to feel. I am dying inside, and I hate it. I hate the way I feel about the kids, and about myself, and about everything in general. So now, exactly how irresponsible am I for feeling like giving up? There is no future; not for me, or the kids. Their mother, my "wife" has stripped me of every ounce of hope and happiness I ever had, and there is nothing I can do about it. Worse, she will do the same to the kids, and I can't stop it. They will become more and more brain-washed as the years go by and, instead of realizing what she is and what she has done to them, will believe that I am to blame. I could be wrong but, I see it happening already. The oldest (S13 and Sstb12) already have her mannerisms and habits and attitudes toward the world. I see none of myself in any of my kids and, believe me, I spend a lot of time looking. Either I am the worst sort of man there is, or something is extremely rotten in Denmark.

I have had my little rant now. Every time a man questions whether it is right to stay or leave, the battle lines get drawn. We are not ALL deadbeats or unfeeling louts. Some of us have been through amounts of constant and insidious abuse that no-one truly understands. Some of us are at the end of what we can tolerate because we are used up. There is nothing left inside us but guilt and regret and pain. And, even through all this that I have said and explained, I stay. And it will get worse, and I will stay, and the kids will never know how much I have loved them and sacrificed for them, so they can hate me.

SK

[fantasyman]

SK,

I think your kids will know how much their father loves them.  In spite of their mother's antics, one day that proverbial meteor will fall & strike them clear into their senses.  They will see the truth.  As long as you do what you know is right by them, you'll always at least have a chance, and they will know that they have a great dad who has gone through the bowels of hell for them.. 

I've gone through some similar challenges w my GF (formally finace').  She has two S's (17 & 13), and I have two D's (11 & 9).  The S's father is a geniune USDA top choice deadbeat if ever there was one.  Still, we both promised that we would always treat each others kids as if they were our own, & I went to great lengths to overcome the deficiencies of this "father" - especially after they moved in w me.  Whenever the was an issue, they all ran to me = whenever they needed something, I was there.  B/C my Ds are only w me every other weekend, they shared a bedroom - the B's each had rooms of their own.

The hammer fell when GF told me that she didn't want me talking to her S's.  Her S16 (at the time) was starting to have some serious clashes w his dad - challenging him at every turn to step up & set more of a positive example.  When I tried to calm the situation, GF said she didn't share my beliefs about manhood (as if she's taken a single breath of her life as a man ), & she didn't want me influencing the B's.  Of course, none of this stopped her from absolutely overwhelming me with complaints about how the B's were just like their dad, & how she has absolutely no help w them & wishes she had family (w whom she's estranged by her own choice).

"Don't talk to my B's..." - in MY house?   That was the nail in the coffin.  Abusing & tongue lashing me about everything under the sun was one thing - but this?  I told her she had to find somewhere else to live - S16  had started challenging me (like his mother), & I could feel the ticks on the clock counting down to me teaching him a lesson - the hard way!

They've been gone for about 2 months.   Peace has been restorede to my home, & my relationship w my D's is rapidly improving.

All this to say that I commend you for sticking it out as long as you have - but no one here will look harshly upon you when & if you decide that you've had enough.  BPD is an ugly desease that strips the partners of every ounce of self repsect & self esteem if left unguarded.  Whatever the case, your kids see the effort you put into being a part of their lives - even if they won't acknowledge it right now.  Don't ever surrender that effort - even if it comes down to emplying that effort from a different address.

[SlipKnot]

Thanks fantasyman

sometimes words of encouragement are all it takes to get one past the 'hump'.

the worst part of it all is in watching her (ubpd wife) screw everything up and being unable to change anything. she is so blind to everything but her own feelings and those are unpredictable. and yes, she has sucked the life right out of me. thanks for the words.

SK

[fantasyman]

she is so blind to everything but her own feelings and those are unpredictable. and yes, she has sucked the life right out of me.

Yea, SK, I know exactly what you mean. My GF couldn't care less about anything I might feel - we're (we non's) not supposed to have any feelings .  In fact, just this evening I asked her whether she thought that 100% of the dysfucntion & "insanity" in our relationship is a reuslt of my own behavior & reactions.  Of course she said "yes, & until you can accept that, nothing between us will ever change."  I guess there won't be any changes anytime soon!  I accept that her response to that questions says much more about her than it does about me.  It's very sad that a person can see so much wrong in the behaviors & attitudes of others, but see nothing wrong with or accept any responsibility for their own.  I kinda' feel like the best thing I can do for her is to get as far as I can away from her & stay away so that she can see that I'm not her problem, but that she is.  But, I suspect that she'd just find someone else to target.  Nonetheless, I'm limiting my time around her.

All you can do is what you know & feel are right.  If your wife insists on screwing up everything, you may want to take some measures to protect yourself and let her own her consequences.  As long as she can blame you, I think she will.  You can't change her - only she can, & only after she's made the conscience decison that she wants to change.

You hang in there, SK.  The lesson for us in these experiences is to learn how to strengthen ourselves. "My response is my responsibility."

FM

[yeeter]

This is a very worthwhile topic.  And not a simple one. 

I spent considerable time struggling and wrestling with the tradeoffs of how it would impact my children if I left the relationship and tried 'coparenting' post divorce with an irrational ex - vs staying in the relationship and being involved in my childrens lives on a daily basis.  The divorce laws in my state are dated and not at all fair in how they treat the opposite genders.

I choose to stay.  I believe they are betting off with me in their lives on a regular, daily basis. 

Fact is, I would NOT have the same access, and thus the same influence, if I went the route of divorce.  (my wife made this very clear, and I believe the courts would support her on it).  The concept that men are just lazy and dont work hard enough to stay involved in the childrens lives is also a dated one.

A worthwhile topic to review and bring up to date with the latest studies and research.