The “Gnome Home” Exercise

[Think About It...]

<<Well..actually, there sort of is a Temple of Truth...I am the Goddess at My Temple of Truth...he doesn't have to like it and I don't have to tolerate his  gnomes.  There are more important considerations at stake.> > >


That's a good way to put it--you're the goddess of YOUR OWN Temple of Truth. What I mean is that there is no Dear Abby/Miss Manners Goddess who looks down from above and can state what is true for YOU.

Randi

[Randi Kreger]

<<Well..actually, there sort of is a Temple of Truth...I am the Goddess at My Temple of Truth...he doesn't have to like it and I don't have to tolerate his  gnomes.  There are more important considerations at stake.> > >


That's a good way to put it--you're the goddess of YOUR OWN Temple of Truth. What I mean is that there is no Dear Abby/Miss Manners Goddess who looks down from above and can state what is true for YOU.

Randi

[DragoN]

That's a good way to put it--you're the goddess of YOUR OWN Temple of Truth. What I mean is that there is no Dear Abby/Miss Manners Goddess who looks down from above and can state what is true for YOU.

You know...I think was the only thing that kept me half way sane when dealing with my H in the first years. Half way is being generous, I'll admit.

Why is it that...maybe it;s a case by case thing here though too... my husband can and obviously does respect the boundaries of others...but tries to steam roll mine?

When he couldn't get to me with the usual emotional and verbal abuse...he got physical...and even now...he fights really hard to not get physical because he is aware that I am done with him if he does. I don't fight back...I walk away...and leave,...as I know..it will get physical if I stay. He still cannot understand that. And I still have to leave any which way I can.

In my situation...Boundaries are sometimes really inconvenient...and that's another thing...understanding more about BPD and he seems to be so...and sort of admitted but not really...

Randi...thanks for being out there. I am rambling here...and the same question as I've asked a thousand times...when do they "get it" and I know the answer...he doesn't have to, as it doesn't necessarily bother him per se.

Between the books and workshops on FtF...my relationship with him and myself is much better. Thank you for that.  x

[newworld]

<<I think boundaries are actually "permanent" things which describe what we will or will not do/accept in our lives, not a way to treat someone or view someone else, but how we view ourselves? So, if you will not accept someone to hit you, that means a stranger on the street, the spouse and the children. It apply's to everyone because it is about us, "not them".  >>

****Yes and no. Yes, it's ALWAYS ABOUT YOU, NOT THEM. However, you can always change your mind. And some things can be OK for one person and not another. Yes, you will let NO ONE abuse you, but your husband can call you Snooky but your children can't.

Your answer above, answered my below.

<<What is the difference between this (boundaries) and certain things we relax for people more intimately connected to us?  Like sharing information or doing things, accepting quirks or a "bad day" from people we live with or love or are married to?  >>

As for the below:

because my boundaries are ill defined, this is where it all goes down the drain for me. I want to be flexible and understanding, and then I become a martyr or a victim instead. I am patterned that way from childhood. I don't know how to change it except to grow a set    Maybe this is one of those "feel the fear and do it anyway" things. As dragon said, not everyone has to "like me". I don't do it so everyone will like me, I do it so people will STOP abusing me and leave me alone. I am not trying to make friends, I am trying to get people to stop hurting me and to go away    I have never said any of this outloud before or really hear myself saying it this way. Some of what I am saying may not make logical sense. The words are coming from the inner abused child, so, logic isn't necessarily going to happen. It's fear from actual abuse. "please stop. I can't take anymore, can't you see I'm breaking. Don't you care? What did io do to deserve this?"

****It is normal and natural, as I said, to have different boundaries with different people. You might share info with some people and not others. It's OK to negotiate boundaries. It's not only OK, but essential to accept some people's quirks: during the Clarification step (step number 1) you decide what you will and won't accept, what's OK and what's not.

With some people, you need to be very strict and not let a boundary go, ever. Much depends on the boundary and the person and the boundary style. With people who are in general very accepting of your boundaries, you can sometimes let things slide. But with BPs you need to be consistent, and that goes for everything.

I notice too that when I started tolearn about all of this stuff, when I was beginning recovery from my PD FOO, whatr i focused on was learning not to cross other people's boundaries. That's a good thing, however, the same attention should have been given to establishing my own. I was out of balance trying to be good to everyone but myself...and that never works out in the end for anyone concerned.

[newworld]

So can we sat there are different kinds of boundaries?

One's which are permanent and apply to all and one's which are relationship appropriate?

Permanent: I will not be hit

relationship: Husband can call me snooky, neighbor can't.

permanent: I will not tolerate angry bad language direct at me as a way to intimidate or insult or degrade

relationship: My cousin with tourettes can't help sometimes blurting out cuss words. also i am from NY...it's a fact of life that it is used casually.

[Randi Kreger]

<<because my boundaries are ill defined, this is where it all goes down the drain for me. I want to be flexible and understanding, and then I become a martyr or a victim instead. I am patterned that way from childhood. I don't know how to change it except to grow a set>>


This is an interesting statement...I thought that what I am about to write was a minorish issue, so I didn't mention it. But I am glad you spoke about this because it really is an important point.

Different people have different boundary styles, and boundaries have different aspects.

According to Jane Adams, author of Boundary Issues, boundaries vary in three ways:

1.   Their permeability, or how thick or thin they are.
2.   Their flexibility, or how variable they are
3.   Their complexity, or how intricate and interconnected they are.

These qualities may vary from situation to situation. But in general, we each have our own boundary style, which is an interplay between these three factors. Some individuals have rigid boundaries. One gnome over the line and they’re biting their nails. Other folks are more flexible; the gnomes need to be falling into the cat’s litter box before they take much notice.

Not surprisingly, some of the acting out, higher functioning BPs are quite rigid about their limits, while some non-BPs (particularly friends or those in intimate relationships with BPs) tend to fall on the weak, flexible side—sometimes too flexible side. Non-BPs’ limits also have a tendency to be too permeable (thin), meaning they let everything in. As a result, they feel inundated and overwhelmed.

When people with great boundary style differences are paired, conflict is nearly inevitable. Adams says, “Boundary differences are often the cause of friction, discontent, or problems in relationships, although they often masquerade as something else—fights over money, the kids, the in-laws, the deadline, the broken promise, or forgotten occasion.”

A boundary style is not necessarily good or bad, wrong or right. It’s more about the pairing. My husband, for example, has much thicker boundaries than me. I found this out early in the marriage when I slipped on his shoes to go to the garage. Now, I wear nothing of his without his permission.

(One day I was watching TV downstairs and my cat was on my lap sleeping. His sweatshirt was next to me, but since he wasn’t at home for me to ask permission to use it, I went upstairs to get another one. He might have found a cat hair on it and wondered….)

Now, If he had slipped on something of mine (heh heh heh) I really wouldn’t have cared. His boundaries are thicker than mine.

To get back to an earlier topic, this is a good example of the Temple of Truth. His Truth is “don’t wear my clothing” and since that is important to him, and isn’t harmful to me, I go along. I know what will happen if I wear his clothing (the Consequence), and the ramifications are not worth it. (This is what friends are for: to discuss spousal quirks.) 

Of course, when you’re dealing with a BP, things get much more serious. But the principles are the same. Is your boundary style a problem in general, or just with him? Could you be more assertive? These are good things to explore with a therapist, because you can modify your general boundary style, or have different boundary styles with different people.

Randi

[Randi Kreger]

So can we sat there are different kinds of boundaries?

One's which are permanent and apply to all and one's which are relationship appropriate?

Permanent: I will not be hit

relationship: Husband can call me snooky, neighbor can't.

permanent: I will not tolerate angry bad language direct at me as a way to intimidate or insult or degrade

relationship: My cousin with tourettes can't help sometimes blurting out cuss words. also i am from NY...it's a fact of life that it is used casually.

Yes, that's one way to look at it. See my last post on boundary styles, as well.

Randi

[DragoN]

Not surprisingly, some of the acting out, higher functioning BPs are quite rigid about their limits

?

Oh lord...if I'm reading that right...

[dados76]

i think boundaries are a hard thing for 'lower' functioning people w/BPD.. i know not everybody likes that term.. i guess acting in fits too.. i think my partner for a long time had no boundaries with other people.. hes gotten lots better about that with his new T.. to realize when something bothers him.. and then to actualy say it.. (and learn to say it in a way that isnt 'f off')

boundaries in general are something he and i have talked a lot about.. so that he understands more that when i have a boundary.. its just a limit to the crap i'll put up with.. doesnt mean im always angry or w/e like theres a box for how much stuff ill tolerate.. and when its full its full..

[newworld]

Thank you Randi.  This is incredibly helpful.

I am going to take what you gave us here and work on it. i also know there are other pieces, so can I ask one more question?

Even when i know what a boundary is for me. For example my BP threatens to leave the relationship (his abusive behavior is the silent rage and withholding kind). (I have talked this out, expressed the boundary, given alternatives (I know you have a right to take space, but you do not have a right to be abusive. Just say you are going out and will be back. It's not ok to threaten to end our relationship because I am standing in a way you don't like. Discuss the problem and if there is no resolution, then you have  a right to leave the relationship. My life counts and my life is in this relationship with you. We have agreed that there is not to be a lack of civil considerate behavior.)

The considerate behavior we agree upon goes out the window.

I FREEZE. I don't get assertive. I give him another chance, I try to negotiate with him to observe my boundary, i try to placate, I go into "therapist mode", i try to make it become a misunderstanding, not an act of abuse...and two days later I get angry at myself. I am still angry at the abusive act, and I stand up for myself. In some cases I cut off the relationship. A relationship that should have been cut off 4 boundary violations ago.

It's like I get really into the gnomes and i help with the gnomes..i don't allow financial funny business, but I always understand when I have to move them, after all it's a partnership! and he's so tired from work, so wouldn't it be nice if i cleaned them all up and repainted them for him?

I am totally fine with it, I am not unhappy, I really believe what I am doing in my attitude is good for the relationship. I genuinely want nothing in return. I am experiencing the the joy of partnership and filling my own self up. But then,  if financial funny business starts, i will negotiate and plead around my boundary (don't you see how good I am to the gnomes? I asked for one thing, no gnome overspending and I know you didn't mean to, but this is really important to me, can't me focus on the positive of what we do have and love the gnomes we have and look what we can do if we save the money, you can have XYZ, so can't we please"... and THEN I get angry and two days later say "YOU GET OUT with your gnomes!"

I am guilty of sending mixed messages because I allowed the person to cross my boundary repeatedly, engaged in negotiation about it, and then I get angry two days later? That's not fair.

so the question I am asking now is:  Is it ever too late to assert a boundary, even if we have failed to assert it correctly prior?

How do we know how to tell who we have to be firmer with and who we can be more flexible with? I am really really bad at this.

have we indeed put ourselves in a position where once we let it be trampled  a few times, it really is 'all or nothing", 'do it again and I have to leave" ?


Thank you again Randi and I will now stop hogging this thread and your time  x

NW

[Randi Kreger]

<<Then Reality happens and I volunteer myself for the sacrifice, and help certain people (friends/ significant others) by mowing down my boundaries to show them "I will not hurt you like the others did. I am loyal. I will earn my keep here, you didn't make a mistake in picking me. i can be of value to you". In the case of my PDFOO, I find myself freezing in PTSD and allowing the troops to simply march over them while I stand there in agony, helpless and powerless. >>


***Non-BPs NEVER "help" BPs or others by mowing down their boundaries. One of my most prime principles for non-BPs is that to help their family member, they must first help themselves.

While you (or others, not trying to read your mind here) may believe that your job is to ignore your own needs and concentrate on fixing the other person, that is Very Wrong.

People spend years trying to please their BPs by twisting themselves into a pretzel to avoid conflict. Even if it works, the price is high. Relationships break apart.

The long-term health of your relationship, and that promise to be compassionate to others, partly depends upon your willingness to be compassionate to yourself. Ask yourself, is what you’re doing now helping the other person?

Randi

[Randi Kreger]

<<In the case of my PDFOO, I find myself freezing in PTSD and allowing the troops to simply march over them while I stand there in agony, helpless and powerless.  The only comfort that I have now is not engaging with them, but isolating myself further from the abuse and feeling more vulnerable and alone in the world, so I control my behavior and gain marginal self esteem, but I fall further under the FOO thumb in helplessness. >>


Your post is the Poster Child for why setting boundaries is usually not successful if you have not first addressed fear, obligation, guilt, and other things that keep people stuck. That's the reason why, in my new book The Essential Family Guide to BPD: Step 2, Getting Unstuck, comes before Step 4: Setting Limits with Love.

I will say it again:

*Setting boundaries that stick will generally not happen until a person has worked on the things that keep them stuck: not only FOG (fear, obligation, and guilt) but unhealthy bonds forged by emotional abuse (the Stockholm Syndrome), low self-esteem, the need to rescue, and feelings about roles and duty. Please pass it on! *

In the case of people with borderline parent or severe FOO issues, OBLIGATION is an issue often overlooked.

Our concepts about roles and obligations are supposed to keep life predictable and create an orderly, stable society. The family unit provides for the needs of each member in a grand attempt to perpetuate the species and perhaps the family name. Then, myths and ideals evolve around what the perfect parent, child, sibling, or grandparent should be like.

The sad truth is that while families may have evolved to ensure the survival of its members, sometimes survival is dependent upon giving up the myths of the ideal parent, sister, or other family member, and accepting reality, no matter how much we wish it were otherwise.

People with FOO issues keeping them stuck in a cycle of not setting limits need to take a close look at their beliefs and decide which ones are based on myths and which are based on reality.

This consists of asking questions such as, “What do I do out of a sense of obligation? What feelings rise up when I ask myself that question? Which of my obligations feel good to me? Which ones do not? Your situation is different in ways that may be hard to explain to others. But you don’t necessarily owe anyone an explanation.

Randi

[sandpiper]

Hi Randi

thanks for your response.  Like the others I am finding this conversation very interesting and very enlightening.  And gosh it felt great to toss that stupid ugly football mascot gnome into the bin yesterday.  DH and I had a giggle about it at lunchtime when he called and I said 'Why on earth didn't I toss that ugly thing years ago?'

I suppose one reason is that when I lived with uBPDad he would often take out his rages on inanimate objects because they held some sort of powerful emotive significance for him.  uBPDsis is the same.  Objects are either treasures or enemies depending on who the giver was and whether they existed on a pedestal or in the stocks at any given point in time, in the BPD's consciousness.

I think for a long time I have been reluctant to part with things I simply don't like just because I was afraid it would mean I was like Dad or my sister.
I think the fact that I tolerated the ugly gnome for so long was my way of proving to myself that I could co-exist with a 'thing' that had a negative association.  

But honestly, what's the point?  
So long as I can shrug and think mildly 'Gosh that's ugly.  Should I bin it or give it away?'  Then I'm OK.
I figure that so long as I'm not setting up an alter or else burning the gift at the stake then I'm not behaving the way the BPD does so I don't need to worry that I'm headed down that path.

But back on topic.
I discovered Boundaries when I first arrived here a few years ago and I read a book called 'Better Boundaries - Owning and Treasuring Your Life' by Black and Enns.  I know that there are a few good books on boundaries that have been suggested here and from what I've heard they seem to offer the same general guidelines.

I think that I've gotten pretty good at setting and maintaining boundaries over the years but inevitably I have found that ordinary human beings do like to push them, from time to time.  I'm NC with the PDs in my FOO and I do extremely LC with uBPDMIL so that's kind of manageable.

I've had trouble with one or two nons who are 'pushy' when I try to re-establish a boundary that I've let slide.

What advice do you have when you've let a boundary slide and gentle reminders to the Boundary Crasher (not a BPD) don't seem to work.

i.e. I like having mornings to myself and yet a friend has started nagging for me to be available to have coffee/go to the pool (I do squad) with me.
Mornings are my time for me and I've said so and feel annoyed at having to repeat myself and remind her that if she wants to chat I have time for that later in the day.

She's also started calling my mobile despite me telling her that my mobile is for text messages and emergencies and I prefer to be contacted on my land line.  I've explained that my ptsd means that I have a pretty good startle reflex so to manage this, I keep the ring tone very low on the mobile so it doesn't make me jump if its beside me in the car, or in the library.  But which also means that I don't hear it ring if I'm out at the clothesline.  I do, however, hear the land line ring and I can answer it.

I have tried to say to her 'Look, I know YOU like talking on your mobile, and YOU like drop in visitors, and that's fine for you, but I don't like those things and that's just how I am.'

I'm finding the attempts to 'push' me into doing what she wants - even though it's so trivial - feels like I'm constantly under some sort of petty siege and as a result I'm not enjoying spending time with her.  So I've been in avoidance mode for a while, hoping that if she isn't going to listen to my words, then she might sit up and take notice if I simply make myself socially unavailable.

When someone has respected your boundaries early in the relationship, and then you've let a few slide, and they proceed to take advantage of it, how on earth do you go back and restore your boundaries again?

Its easy with my PD FOO because they just throw a tantrum and storm off, problem solved.  I tend not to worry about the consequences because ultimately I set boundaries with them to protect myself and its an exercise in futility trying to negotiate a compromise so I simply never bother.  RE:  FOO, I am pretty much NC and I'm resigned to the fact that until they seek help for their alcoholism/addiction/personality problems, its just not possible to have a reciprocal relationship with them so I just have to do what is necessary to keep my life safe and unaddled by their crazy making.

Ordinary human beings who just don't have good boundaries and who think 'enmeshed' = friendship...well, that's harder.
And the thing is, that while I'm willing to be flexible with some boundaries if its urgent, the steady wave of trivial irritations is fast wearing down the bank of 'goodwill' that's built up in this particular friendship.

Setting boundaries is one thing, but maintaining or reinforcing them when they've slipped is still a learning curve for me.
I'd be very interested to hear how the rest of you deal with this.

[newworld]

Thank you Randi,

So, I guess I am going to the bookstore...


NW

[Randi Kreger]

i think boundaries are a hard thing for 'lower' functioning people w/BPD.. i know not everybody likes that term.. i guess acting in fits too.. i think my partner for a long time had no boundaries with other people.. hes gotten lots better about that with his new T.. to realize when something bothers him.. and then to actualy say it.. (and learn to say it in a way that isnt 'f off')

boundaries in general are something he and i have talked a lot about.. so that he understands more that when i have a boundary.. its just a limit to the crap i'll put up with.. doesnt mean im always angry or w/e like theres a box for how much stuff ill tolerate.. and when its full its full..

The fact that people with BPD can be so different and pose different challenges also makes it more complicated to talk about boundaries and limits. I once used the term “boundaries” with Marsha Linehan, founder of DBT, and she obviously saw a “boundary” as being a very different thing as a limit (although I don’t).

In “The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: New Tools and Techniques to Stop Walking on Eggshells,” I use the term “limits with love.” It demonstrates that both having limits and respecting the limits of others is a loving thing to do.

Limits make it possible for two people to be close without becoming so close that people nearly stop seeing the other person as a separate person.

If you two are talking about limits, that is positively fantastic. It also sounds like you know what your own limits are and can communicate them well. Maybe you have tips to help others?

Randi

[Randi Kreger]

Thank you Randi.  This is incredibly helpful.

I am going to take what you gave us here and work on it. i also know there are other pieces, so can I ask one more question?relationship. My life counts and my life is in this relationship with you. We have agreed that there is not to be a lack of civil considerate behavior.)


so the question I am asking now is:  Is it ever too late to assert a boundary, even if we have failed to assert it correctly prior?

How do we know how to tell who we have to be firmer with and who we can be more flexible with? I am really really bad at this.

have we indeed put ourselves in a position where once we let it be trampled  a few times, it really is 'all or nothing", 'do it again and I have to leave" ?


Thank you again Randi and I will now stop hogging this thread and your time  x

NW

When things get really complicated, and there’s been a lot of setting boundaries and having it not work, I really think it’s a great idea to talk about boundaries in the office of a therapist.

Many times, couples therapy doesn’t work out for partners because they spend a lot of time trying to figure out the source of the problem, which gets into a lot of blaming and anger. I don’t advise that with a BP partner who is unwilling to working through their own stuff as it relates to them being a couple.

That said, therapists’ officers can be a GREAT place to communicate because really, ANY therapist can facilitate communication: help keep things calm, remember who said what to whom, let people talk, etc. You can put together agreements and then look at them and evaluate what has happened in follow up sessions.

In a therapist office, each person generally takes things more seriously. Both people—including the BP!—want to be seen as a reasonable, intelligent, giving person. It’s more likely to have what I call a “climate of cooperation.”

Randi

[dados76]

The fact that people with BPD can be so different and pose different challenges also makes it more complicated to talk about boundaries and limits. I once used the term “boundaries” with Marsha Linehan, founder of DBT, and she obviously saw a “boundary” as being a very different thing as a limit (although I don’t).

In “The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: New Tools and Techniques to Stop Walking on Eggshells,” I use the term “limits with love.” It demonstrates that both having limits and respecting the limits of others is a loving thing to do.

Limits make it possible for two people to be close without becoming so close that people nearly stop seeing the other person as a separate person.

If you two are talking about limits, that is positively fantastic. It also sounds like you know what your own limits are and can communicate them well. Maybe you have tips to help others?

we talk about.. pretty much everything.. most of what i know about borderline i know from talking w/him about it.. validation has been a really great tool to make it so that we're comfortable talking about where we're at.. hes in dbt.. and is learning how to be validating too.. and better at understanding why i need a break sometimes.. a few times.. when he finishes filling a journal.. hes let me read.. and shares a lot of his current writing stuff.. which has been really.. enlitening.. to kind of have a look inside his head abt what is going on.. its taken a lot of patience and work to get to this point tho.. a lot of letting my guard down too.. and being consistent..

i think that the more he learns and practices w/boundaries.. the more he sees how theyre necessary.. and it gets clearer that boundary doesnt mean i dont care about him.. usually i explain it as a rule for myself about what im ok with and what im not ok with.. which i think he likes b/c hes a pretty.. hyper organized and ordered person..

[DragoN]

While I can see your frustration--and I have no idea about how your BP acts--

No frustration here really. I wouldn't be married to someone who could not afford his gnomes. Or whatever else he had an addiction for. Period. If someone I was with was financially irresponsible in that manner...I didn't stick around. I can't change them and won't bother trying. If he can afford his quirk, fine, but when it crosses the line into Facts of Life living arena...then there will be some changes made whether he likes it or not as I won't go down with a ship like that.

The only debt that I can work with is a mortgage on a tangible asset. If he was such twit as to charge vacations to credits cards that he could not afford in cash up front...outta my life. Seriously. Why put up with that?

Part of the reason is you're teaching how to communicate about boundaries HE wants to set.

I am all for listening and responding with empathy...especially if it might result in a reduction in his beer consumption.    He can't say NO...to beer.  ?

I am more than willing to give anything a fair shot,...so long as My boundaries are not in danger of being compromised.

I'll fully admit...validation is really working...and for a hard headed git like myself...it's been a real process of getting into that touchy feely emotional head mushy space. It's weirder than all get out. But...it works. So...* all ears/eyes*

[Auspicious]

How about others?
Be honest, how do you deal with your SO and their demands for more gnomes?

In the past?  I would say no way, she would get really, um, friendly (highly unusual then), then ask me if we could go to gnomapalooza and load up on gnomes, which for some reason I was often now much more agreeable to, even if it was a very bad idea financially. This made me "sexually and financially controlling".

More recently, I say "gnomes are really cool, aren't they? things are really tight. I think if we want more gnomes you will need to get disability or a job and thus be able to pay for them."

[Randi Kreger]

While I can see your frustration--and I have no idea about how your BP acts--

Part of the reason is you're teaching how to communicate about boundaries HE wants to set.

I am all for listening and responding with empathy...especially if it might result in a reduction in his beer consumption.    He can't say NO...to beer.  ?

=

Just FYI, about 30% of people with BPD also have substance abuse issues. They need to be in recovery on the substance abuse front BEFORE being treated for BPD.

Randi

[dados76]

Just FYI, about 30% of people with BPD also have substance abuse issues. They need to be in recovery on the substance abuse front BEFORE being treated for BPD.

ya... my partner is a drug addict.. and was dx'ed with AsPD and psychosis when using.. clean he doesnt have those traits anymore.. i think theres a lot of overlap w/addiction and BPD too.. i think tho.. that substance abuse recover (my partner is in NA) has a lot of ideas that can help w/BPD too.. and some stuff that just drives him batty   which is why therapy is important too.. but the drug thing is why hes had his dx'es looked at a few times.. when he had 6 mo clean.. a year.. and 18 mo clean w/his new T..