DIFFERENCES|COMORBIDITY: Borderline PD and Alcohol Dependence

[jupiter]

has anyone heard of a link between fetal alcohol spectrum disorder and personality disorders in particular bpd? i know the majority of those with fas/fae also experience metal heath issues...just wondering if there is a possible link there.

[shimauta]

Hi. I dont know if alcohol does, but... I took diazepam or something like that (low doses) when pregnant, because I couldnt sleep and I was extremely anxious. Without medical supervision  (beleive it or not, it was an over-the-counter medicine until more or less 10 years ago in my country).  When my son was BPD son was born, I think he had some kind of abstinence reaction. He used to sleep a lot, wake up crying like crazy, and then eat, and eat, and eat, and nothing seem to satisfy his hunger... until his little stomach was too full and it all came out...

I found this article, some months ago, seems so real... read my coments in capital letters:


Unwanted pregnancies may precipitate a borderline character-formation in unborn children. For example, if a mother has other children close in age or the pregnancy occurred too close to the birth of another child, the mother may wish that this unborn baby did not exist. She may submit to having the baby, but in her heart she feels guilty for her thoughts of disavowal. ( THIS HAPPENED TO ME...THE GUILTY FEELINGS MADE ME BE TOO CLOSE TO HIM)  Her own borderline guilt and pretense creates a borderline pregnancy process, which leaves the baby with intense cravings for the mother's body and nourishment.

Sometimes babies of borderline mothers are born with a ravenous hunger for breast milk along with a tenacious need to cling to the mother's body  ( MY SON WAS LIKE THIS). In time this hunger becomes an intense, insatiable need that eventually becomes transferred to love objects in adult life. Because of feelings of nonexistence and threat to one's survival, the borderline clings tenaciously to adult relationships based on intense early need and oral demands. When these relationships threaten to break down, the borderline regresses to an infantile, near-psychotic state. Buried emotional pain gets reactivated along with primitive regressive defenses.

In a relationship it is common for the unwanted inner infant of the borderline to feel deeply attracted to bonding and identifying with the hurt, unloved inner child of another person  (MY SON USED TO WORK WITH HANDICAPPED CHILDREN TWO YEARS AGO. HE LOVED TO AND SAID IT CALMED HIM DOWN. ). These people may actually form love relationships based on the empty, unloved inner infant. Attempting to turn the partner into some aspect of one's own unintegrated, disallowed inner parent marks the beginning of borderline upheaval and intensity.

[BPDFamily]

DIFFERENCES|COMORBIDITY: Overview of Comorbidity

Additional discussions...

Personality Disorders
Borderline and Paranoid Personality Disorder
Borderline and Schzoid/Schizotypal Personality Disorder
Borderline and Antisocial Personality Disorder
Borderline and Histrionic Personality Disorder
Borderline and Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Borderline and Avoidant Personality Disorder
Borderline and Dependent Personality Disorder
Borderline and Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder
Borderline and Depressive Personality Disorder
Borderline and Passive Aggressive Personality Disorder
Borderline and Sadistic Personality Disorder
Borderline and Self Defeating Personality Disorder

Other
Borderline PD and Alcohol Dependence
Borderline PD and Aspergers
Borderline PD and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder
Borderline PD and BiPolar Disorder
Borderline PD and Dissociative Identity Disorder
Borderline PD and P.T.S.D.
Borderline PD and Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD)

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[Randi Kreger]

I've never heard of anything.

Randi Kreger
 
Author, "The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder"
 

[PCker]

This is interesting, I hadn't heard of this connection or even thought of it.  I kind of assumed BPD came about from something environmental AFTER birth rather than before, I don't know why.  But now that I think about it, my BP partner is the product of an alcoholic mother, so not only was there the neglect and downright abuse as an infant and young child before entering foster care at 2, I'm sure her mother did not stop drinking during her unwanted pregnancy with regard to the health of her 8th child, the product of an affair.   None of her 7 siblings are notably BPs, but then again, I don't know them that well so it is possible.   Maybe it's the combination of fetal alcohol syndrome and childhood abuse, or maybe something else altogether, but so much I've read seems to substantiate the association between childhood abuse and mental illness later in life.   There is no reason to think that ingested substances during the formation of the fetus could not also play a significant role, though. 

PCker

[Skip]

It's an interesting subject...

Are there really two questions?

Is the child of a mother who used alcohol heavily during her pregnancy, more likely to develop BPD?
I would think the incidence of emotional neglect would be greater, and so there would be a greater incidence that in a more healthy family environment. Many BPD children have a BPD parent and substance abuse is a characteristic of many with BPD, so the likelihood of FAS would be greater in these families.

Has any link been shown between people who are diagnosed with BPD and fetal alcohol syndrome?
According to Michael J. Formica, LCT, "FAS is a biological deficit, fundamentally an induced birth defect, that has its own set of behavioral outcomes. BPD is a learned set of responses laid upon the bedrock of depression and anxiety.  One might draw connections between the coincidence of the two, but drawing a straight line might be a bit of a stretch."

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/155/4/552
In this study, the authors attempted to characterize the type and frequency of mental illness in adults with fetal alcohol syndrome or fetal alcohol effects. Only 1 person in the study appeared to develop borderline personality disorder (see footnote on the table or the study text) but they did not test out as BPD using the SCID-II.



I believe, FAS and BPD have some common symptoms too... one being impulsive behavior... not considering the affects of actions before taking them.  I think I may have read that some therapists are finding DBT to be helpful for FAS clients.

[lib]

What is the difference between BPD and  alcohol dependence?

How do the symptoms overlap or differ?

Thanks,

Lib

[dados76]

hard to say.. my partner is dx w/bpd.. also is a recovering drug addict.. hes been clean for abt 3 years.. i think when he was using.. everything was all kind of.. one ball of crazy.. since hes been clean.. stuff that gets triggered by fear of abandonment.. is more bpd than drug issue..

i think that not being too sure of who they are.. is pretty common for addicts and people w/bpd.. i think for addicts maybe working on recovery can help that.. but bpd might need more intense therapy to deal.. both can have mood swings.. but i think bpd is a lot faster and more intense.. and makes less sense to the outside world

[sarah1234]

In my limited personal experience, BPD is there underneath, but alcohol is a useful tool in many ways.

-It is used to try forget about the anxieties and fear they experience every day. In my experience it amplified it x 100 but that was ok for my exbf, because he could neither remember anything or control himself (so he claimed). The need to feel 'something else' apart from those feelings. Escape
-to display that alcohol is the only issue, so that the BPD is not uncovered, so therefore to hide from it, a mask. They can then claim that they are cutting down/getting help for the alcohol without dealing with any underlying issues
-poor impulse control. Alcohol misuse spirals out of control. It feels nice to drink a little, but they are unable to know when to stop, and they also drink at inappropriate times
- something to blame everything else on. 'I was drunk' may excuse bad behaviour
- it could be ingrained copied behaviour. Exbf's mother was a highly functioning alcoholic BPD, but she knew her limits financially and physically. I have never seen her without a drink in her hand, yet I have rarely seen her very drunk. Exbf has developed this maybe from childhood but on a low functioning level where he is unable to control himself

[Randi Kreger]

What is the difference between BPD and  alcohol dependence?

How do the symptoms overlap or differ?

Thanks,

Lib

Robert Friedel, MD, says that when the two disorders are co-occuring you really can't tell what's what until the substance abuse is taken care of.

[RedDevil66]

I'm too well versed on addictions, thanks to the ex. But the theory is, 95% of addicts have some form of personality disorders.
My ex stopped drinking 2 yrs ago once he went to AA, then he became more nuts. The booze made him less crazy!
He replaced his booze addiction for women addiction

Only a VERY small few addicts ever recovery and I don't mean just by not taking their drug of choice, but I mean fully come to grips with their mental issues.
This is why is very common for people in the program to hook up. They can all relate to each other.

[Telios]

What is the difference between BPD and  alcohol dependence?

How do the symptoms overlap or differ?

Thanks,

Lib

Robert Friedel, MD, says that when the two disorders are co-occuring you really can't tell what's what until the substance abuse is taken care of.

This makes perfect sense to me as this is how I ended up looking into BPD for my sister .  My sister is a recovering alcoholic x 14 years.  The problem is much of her strange behavior has remained and on top of it my other siblings have always said she acted like this growing up as well.
She is histrionic, all about having all attention on her, has all superficial relationships if any and on and on.

Telios

[Lila]

While alcoholism/drug addiction can coexist with other mental conditions, it does not mean that most addicts are bpd.  The basis of a 12 step program is that the person must be rigorously honest with themselves and take ownership for their actions.  I have yet to meet a pwbpd that could take ownership of anything they were responsible for.  Just my 2 cents.  Lila

[on the mend]

Your posts have raised questions I've had.

H is an alcoholic who finally sought treatment after I told him he had to move out. The children and I could and would not continue to live the way we were (for many, many yrs).

He went into an inhouse facility for detox (he was accepted due to prior outpatient treatment not maintained).  In H and my first meeting (note, this was the only meeting was I was involved in) - the person of authority asked if we wanted them to look for a dual diagnosis.  I said yes, due to H's control issues however, didn't think to mention the rages etc. (I didn't know bpd existed).  I never heard another thing at all from this facility.  The facility delt directly and exclusively with H, completely cutting me out of the picture altogether.  Presumably due to HIPPA law.

The unfortunate outcome of this story is probably what happens quite often... no answers. 

 I do not have any validation of H having BPD other than what I find in this wonderful forum and even then, I still question MY sanity some days.

[playamarci]

I was just reading an article on the effects of alcoholism on a relationship..There were many similarities. My SO is undiagnosed but finding this board was the :light bulb" for me...I was all over these pages..Do we have to see after the alcohol clears if it may only be the alcohol and not BPD.  Any thought on this subject would be appreciated ..My SO is in treatment for alcohol now...Are the behaviors that similar?

[Randi Kreger]

According to Robert Friedel, MD, you can't know until the substance abuse is treated.

[Lila]

I displayed a lot of bpd behavior while drinking and I have several pwbpd in my foo.  Most of that behavior was gone by the time I was 6 months sober.  In my brother's words the difference in me was night and day.  Now I have my fleas but I have a few years of sobriety and my T assures me that I am not bpd.  Playa, you can't change your SO but you might find Alanon to be helpful to you.  Good luck with it.  Lila

[manda]

When my mom briefly stopped drinking is when I realized she is just as cruel and horrible sober, so I tend to agree with the idea that the alcoholism is a self medication for the pd.

[Lila]

Hi Playa, I am so glad that you are finding some support and I think the 12 steps are an invaluable tool.

Manda, My bpd mother is cruel and horrible when sober as well as drunk.  In those cases I think that the drinking is just a symptom of the illness (bpd).

[goldstar]

The ex is an alcoholic.  He's been sober for a few years and is still as mean, manipulative, vindictive, selfish, greedy, self-centered and crazy as ever.  The alcohol was just his way of easing his pain.  Underneath the alcohol... still a monster.

That doesn't mean all alcoholics are bpd/npd or that all bpd/npd are alcoholics.