BPDFamily.com

So I'm reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and it really makes you feel bad for the person with BPD---blah,blah, blah.  But the book keeps saying over and over that if you are in a relationship with the BPD that they do not mean to hurt you, it's their illness, or that they do love you, it's their illness showing otherwise.  My question is... .who do they love?   My x partner told me I was the love of her life.  We met when we were kids, met again, and she told me she never loved anyone like she loved me--yet she left again.  I know she has gone through several relationships since our first one and she had those idealization phases and devaluation phases with them as well... .but who is it that she loves?

I'm just confused.  The book makes me feel like I am turning my back on her in some way because I do know things were really intense b/w us and not a practical situation.  But how she had maturely told me in the beginning how she had always loved me and she couldn't come back or talk to me 18 yrs ago b/c she knew she really messed up and was so mean that there would be no way I could still love her(she says she realizes she messes up with people and can't go back).  Everytime she started pushing away from me in this recent relationship she would tell me to go away, it would be best for me b/c she was hurting me, and that it was too painful for her and she would cry horribly.  I would go through the conversation with her but in the end I would ask if she really, REALLY wanted to live apart from me forever and she would say yes and once I was about to let go I would ask again and she would cry so hard and say "no." 

I don't know if this was all manipulation or desperation... .I dont' know if she really loves me behind all this craziness in her but her craziness keeps her distant... .I just don't know.  I am very confused... .hence my name!  But in the long run... .I know I have to take care of myself and my family.  I just keep coming back to this question and thoughts about love.  If they can't love themself, how can they love another?  Yet in the book it says they do love people and not to take it personally that they do these awful things.

Any feedback or insight?

 In my case I believe my dBPDexw did love me, actually my T told me she thought that the relationship with me was the closest my wive had ever been to true love. But I needed a real, unconditional, and committed love relationship, not borderline love. The more they love you the worst it seems they treat you. I finnally had to except the fact that she was not capable of giving the love that I wanted, needed, and deserved. It was a sad ending but a necessary one.        wallace

He loves me with all of his heart, except when he hates me with all of his heart. I waiver on this quite a bit. When things were good, he treated me well. He never did the name calling, etc. He cared for me when I was sick. He bought me anything I looked at and admired. There were many ways he showed me he loved me. Unfortunately, when he hated me, he wanted me dead.

One thing I have found helpful is to think of "love" as a verb - something you do - not just as a feeling.  You can't know what they are feeling, but you can see what they do... .

To "love" someone is to treat them well.  Listen to them.  Try to please them.  Never do something to hurt them.

By this very simple point of view, my BPD wife can't possibly claim to "love" me, or even our kids - her behavior is too bad to think of as "loving".  What she feels who knows?  But if it doesn't translate into behavior, what difference does it make what she feels?  I won't stay with someone who treats me and my kids badly.  If her behavior does not reflect who she really is, then she needs to get help, and she has refused to do that.  End of story (for me).

So... .looked at that way - as a verb - do you see your ex as loving you or anyone else?

Best wishes,

Matt

Tough question.

Lets take a different tack.  Do you think BPDs love themselves?  I ask this... .because there is prevalent opinion that one must love themselves in order to love another.  I haven't truly digested that... .makes sense on some levels... .but why would the act of loving yourself be a condition of loving another?

Now, lets take this idea of loving yourself and apply it to your 3 year old.  At this stage of development, does a three year old understand the concept of love?  Does the three year old have the capability to love themselves?  When I look at it this way, the three year old has a bond with the mother/parental object, but the bond is from fulfilling needs - identity, safety etc.  Does a 3 year old love Mom?  Or the needs that Mom fulfills? 

Now... .grow the child up into an adult but hold the emotional maturity at the 3 year old stage.  This is my concept of a BPD (maybe any PD).  The adult BPD has learned many behaviors that can reflect adult concepts of these feelings, but the regulators aren't there.  So, they can mimic a person in love or act like a person in love and possibly demonstrate those behaviors as loving people.  However, whether they really understand what it is to love someone else... .I really don't know.  I know that the BPD I was involved with definitely said things that questioned whether she loved herself - she's "empty", "a screw up", "fatally flawed", "worthless", no one could fix her and "whats wrong with me?".  These feelings/emotions led her to beleive that she should end her life (and she attempted twice from what I know).  She also thought that her children would be better off without her (I tend to agree - but not to the extent of ending her life).

I think it really matters as to their perception of what their SO means to them.  I'll keep the concept of the BPD as an adult with 3 year old maturity.  From this, I think the SO supplants parental fulfillment of needs.  I've read where the SO is objectified (like we are an Appliance that they like a lot because it fulfills certain needs).  In this regard, I don't think there's respect for the love object.  They can use another appliance just as easily as another to fulfill the desparate needs.

I'd have to say... .they don't love anyone any more than they love any other object in their reality.

They love who they think you are. (Not you but a fantacy person they have created in their own mind whos only purpose is to serve their needs and know their wishes.)  You are like an object to them. You will be loved until you express your own identity and needs, at which point you will become disowned and the enemy who is to be reviled. At which point they will attempt to reestablish control or move on and drop you like you never existed. Because as an Individual person to them you never did.

Matt:  I really liked what you had to say.

Now that I am establishing boundaries and not oohing and ahhing at everything he wants me to I can see that the lack of attention (from his perspective) is really getting to him.  I think that bothers him more than anything else we are dealing with right now.  I am just too exhausted to maintain the level of worship that he requires.

Anyway, back on topic, I think H needs constant over the top love in order to feel any love and when he doesnt get it he feels unlovable.  It is an all or nothing love with him for others and himself.  Like Chili said, (I swear sometimes we are on the same brain wave length)  for him toward me and toward himself he loves with all his heart until he hates with all his heart.

i really think thier amount of love ... .is based on what they are picturing in thiere mind at the time... .

like if everything... is good for them out side of the realtionship... .

which is ususally short lived... .they are all about them... .and you in the thoughts... just not as heavily... .

then when evrything else starts falling apart... .they hang onto you... .real tightly.

the words are there, the intimacy is there... .the i loves yous... and the hallmarks cards... .are coming... .

then ... .they cross some line in thier minds... .

a switch is thrown... .your too close... .and the fear of abandonment. kicks in... .

and its starts to deline... .

and its another uphill battle on the roller coaster... .

for me the more i pulled back... .the more she seemed to love me... .?

just my thoughts... .

Thanks everyone.  This is some really good feedback.  I so appreciate all your words.

I so totally agree with mtn

My uBPDso has a huge amount of difficulty loving herself... .but with me? It's like an infants love for me. It is totally unconditional, verging on awe, until I fail to fulfill a need, then she may as well be an 8 year old having a tantrum or a sulking fit until I meet her need.

If I try to relate her behaviour to that of an adult partner I get frustrated beyond belief, I tend to be in a perpetual state of WT F? But, when I relate her behaviour to that of a child it all becomes clear and I understand... .

The big problem here of course is that though she may act like a child, it is very difficult to then treat her as that child which the childish behaviour would normally warrant, after all she is well aware that she is 29 years old... .grrr  ::)

So in summary, I believe my SO loves me unconditionally at all times, but lacks the emotional maturity to comprehend an adults behaviour or responses and therefore can act out like a child screaming "I hate you" to their parents. I have accepted this as the only love she is capable of for now... .whether I can continue to accept this for the rest of my life remains to be seen. I mean, one day I want children, I just didn't want an adult one, you know?  ::)

They don't... .

They can't... .

People with BPD simply are not wired the same as the rest of us, they cannot process emotions the same way.  SWOE did a great job at explaining the illness, teaching detachment and boundaries... .but, it also assumes that the BPD is seeking help, examining their behaviors and working on getting control of themselves.  It takes TWO to make a relationship, it cannot be one sided... .you can pour yourself out onto them until you are empty... .but, there is a break in their cup that holds onto love, empathy, compassion... .they are to a great degree a black hole of need.  It comes down to US, our abiltiy to accept their fate as our own... .or to carve out a different path.  Sure, if we were with someone who had cancer or something and we walked away... .that wouldn't be so cool and we would carry that guilt... .but, they would be in treatment, healing... .when it is a BPD who is NOT actively seeking help and committed to therapy... .we must make a choice for US... .to live or die that way or move on... .


They don't love anyone else, at least not in the traditional or true sense of the word love, and yes, I know everyone may have a different definition of love... .although I'm not a traditional religious person this biblical definition I think truly is what it is.

Love is patient, Love is kind,

It does not envy, it does not boast,

It is not proud, It is not rude,

It is not self-seeking,

It is not easily angered,

It keeps no record of wrongs.

Love does not delight in evil,

but rejoices with the truth.

Love always protects, always trusts,

always hopes, always perseveres.

Everyone here had a lot of great things to say... .thanks so much.

Tony

You said that when things go fine in their lives, it seems stable for them, then they get all about themselves.   Are you saying that in many ways they cannot keep the peace and what I mean by that is everything is going too good so they take a chance by doing something stupid and latching onto someone else or start having other fantasies that then lead to destroying the peaceful relationship they do have and they do this unintentially b/c they are so self-absorbed?  Also, narcissistic--like they think they can handle a multitude of relationships secretly so as everyone is at their disposl to meet their needs?  And then when it all crumbles and they are caught they either hold on closer or run in guilt, shame, or anger?

yes thats my opinion... .when things are going fine... .

they will find something to screw it up... .

could be as simple as a late notice on a credit card... .that willl turn into a nasty comment to the sister... .and then she wont want to go to the commuion sunday,... .and a family war will break out...

and we would say some thing like what is wonrg with you ... .

and there ya go... .lets get ready to rumble... .

Love? Hmmm, cant answer that one, but I can tell you that the only person they are going to look out for is themselves. Check this out: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=74634.0

Along the same vein... .

Do they love themselves?

~AgD

I dont know if they do or not. As I see it through their actions, the answer is no. If they loved themselves, they would look at themselves openly, see a problem, and try to work on it. But, I do think they love themselves in the onlt capacity they have learned in.

Lets say love is like fixing a diesel engine. Those who really want it can go and learn it. Most of us grew up in a family that works on these engines alot, so we grow up in it, and automatically know about them. There are people who have never even seen a diesel engine, so they are completely oblivious to them, but they still go through life trying to do what they do know. I think that if you werent brought up in a loving environment, and you havent learned what it is about love, then you cant know what it really is. Trying to show them what it is, is just like them trying to show us what their version is. Which side is right? We think we are, and they think they are. Truth is, we only know what we are shown, and have learned. So we both are right, just not right for each other.

I've posted before on this... .I don't think BPDs can love themselves.  I think there's two selves in there - the real self that can't surface and the dominating shell of the abandoned child.  The abandoned child harbors so many fears, criticisms and illusions that the BPD may actually hate who they are (perhaps a source of the splitting).

I also had a revelation this morning.  I posted in the "do they cheat thread" - perhaps BPDs use a LTR as the anchor, the stable relationship to address abandonement fears.  But they need more and more validation and go looking for it in other partners.  That said, certainly stress is a trigger for some of the more radical behaviors.  So, even if the relationship seems to be going well, the needs scream for attention.  Perhaps low stress is where they can operate best in securing those needs.  Hiding and masking bad behaviors to gain the next fix with the next victim.

Again... .I don't think love as an emotion is possible for a BPD.  Not in the same regard as a non would.

 I don't think they are capable of love "as we know it." Like some of you said, they imitate what they have observed others doing who loved people, but it never rings true, and is not ever quite correctly done. I recall my BPD-guy saying "honey" or "darling" or "dollbaby" and, trust me, they didn't sound right coming out of his mouth, but he was trying imitate intimacy.

  Their behavior, yes, shows how they feel, and, in my case, it was so often disrespectful or downright hateful that it would not be hard to classify it as not-love. They are unable to feel love, inside, so they cannot project that emotion towards anyone else. What they can do are active behaviors, like helping out, having sex or giving flowers (oh, the flowers), and, sadly, that is their only kind of love.

  Take the silent treatment, or the name-calling, cursing, destructive rants and raves--these are what a normal person would never to anyone they "love", yet, for BPDs, these are everyday occurrences. I am not perfect, but I would never treat anyone the way I was treated, even someone I hated. Realizing that I had never been loved at all, except in the active verb way, was what is making me think that he and I could never be a real couple. It is the illusion I hold of him being "normal" and us being happily together that is tough to erase from my hope chest.

  So, after three whole, long days of NC, I am wondering, still.

I lost it with my partner and screamed at her last night

"How can you say you love me then treat me the way you do?"... .

Her answer?

"What do you mean? How do I treat you?"

UNBELIEVABLE!

I said to her that I wasn't capable of all the hurtful things she does because I love her, and to hurt her is to hurt me. I could only treat her badly if I didn't give a crap about her... .she just didn't get it until I walked her through a couple of days in my shoes, then she got it... .and she broke down and sobbed and said sorry and held me and stroked my hair and swore she loved me with all her heart... .

so guess that's that... .until next time  ::)

Honeykitz

This is a helpful (but sad to accept) way of looking at this.  I've been with h for a long time but only in OZ for a few years and am not just questioning whether or not he loves me now but whether or not he ever did.  This is really hard.  For most of the marriage I felt guilty that I didn't seem to love him as much as he did me  - once we were in OZ I couldn't get my head around just how hurtful he could be to someone he was still saying he loved.  He had reason to be angry and feel betrayed but he seemed to take it to a level that I can't match even though he has now repeatedly betrayed me.  LIke you, I'm not saying I'm perfect or better than him but I am shocked at just how hurtful he can be especially in the context of our relationship up until a few years ago.

The only way I can understand it is to think about it in the terms that mtn described - of there being two selves.  The scared, abandoned child is most definitely the predominant self at the moment.  My h is in T and being confronted with some hard truths (and to his credit is staying with T - just not me!) He can express this concept of two selves and the hurt little boy but he seems unable to stop himself again starting the destructive cycles we've been through the last two years.  Bish's tagline describes my life just now. 

I too am struggling with giving up any hope of being a couple/family - he left a few days ago - again - but has always come back.  This time I need to face up to reality that if he wants back, I may never be sure that he really loves me and what kind of relationship would that be?  He has been in another relationship whilst separated before and if I thought he truly loved her, then I wouldn't have had him back.  I just felt it was a rebound relationship to fill a void - now I'm wondering if he's using me as well and I can't face thinking that about the man I've loved for 25 years (nor can I face thinking that I am not as special as I thought I was!)

tiger

Tiger,

  I can tell you what people here have told me: you deserve better (25 years!), and you will find better. We feel like there is "no one like him" but, believe me, there are. I have been trying No Contact, with varying results, right now on 2 days, but, even though I sometimes see him, each time he goes back into his awful behaviors, and each time, I get better about the idea of life without him.

  I would suggest N/C, even if it's just a few days, because it is helpful. I know that when strong feelings of love and attachment are being felt by us, we are heartbroken to think of moving on without them, but I can tell you that distance, gradually increasing the time, allows you, at some point, to suddenly get that epiphany that "this is not what I want, after all." 

  It takes time for us to redirect and reprogram ourselves towards a different path from that idealized one with Sir BPD guy, but it does, gradually, become manifest, and then we start to become free.

  I can tell you that it is a lot more fun to be able to joke around with someone instead of always being almost silent, for fear that you will trigger a rage. You deserve a lot of fun and joy.

Honeykitz

thanks for that - you're right about feeling there's no-one like him but maybe that's a good thing!  Part of problem is that I was reasonably happy for most of the 25 years - only last few have been nightmare so there's that fantasy of wanting to have the good times back.  He's also with a good T and I see (slow) progress - that too makes it hard because part of me feels that if I wait, he'll get out of this destructive cycle.

BUT, I've waited and put life in limbo for long enough.  I am someone who loves to laugh and have fun and there's been too little of that recently.  So, although I'm not quite ready to say I'm over him or don't want him in my life, I do feel more ready to get on with what I want/need to do for myself and kids and I feel less ready to try to make things better for him (the reality being that my trying to help him has only enabled him).

Sorry - think I've gone off thread a bit but he only left a couple of days ago and I'm in that phase of wanting to post everywhere and get it out my system.  I'll calm down in a week or so!

Tiger

Tiger,

   I know that I will yearn for him, always. I often think that, on my deathbed, I will think of him, something... .the whole non-BPD thing revolves around our terrific attachment to them. Maybe it is a life experience that we have, but our learning, if we gain it, is that this kind of "roller coaster" is not, in modern terms, "sustainable." It cannot last because, if we make it last, we are wearing ourselves out for someone who would dump us at any instant, for, probably, nothing.

   We have to demand better treatment, for us, and for life. If the slaves never revolted, they would never have gained their freedom. If women had never insisted on equality, we would still be using wringer washers and be property. We have to say "no more" and mean it.

   It's very tough. It is bittersweet. It is a loss, which is life.        

I don't believe they are capable of love. My partner thinks if he hugs me really really hard that shows his love for me. That reminds me of a three year old. I tell him that is not love, love is wanting me to be happy, love is enjoying a night out without spoiling it with crazy confused arguments, love is not being paranoid about me going to work in case I talk to other people, love is trust, love is something you give whether you get it back or not, no strings.

I don't think they even love themselves - my partner rarely washes, himself or his clothes, does nothing to make himself look nice, smell nice. He obviously doesn't care about himself, so why on earth would he care about anyone else?

They just love ideas, ideas of people, ideas of how things should be. Not reality.

Yes, and the more I read and think on this, the more I think that I fell in love with an ALIEN!  My BPD "picked" me out of a dating service, and practically swore a lifetime of joy would be ours from the moment he saw me. RED FLAG, but such treatment is tough to resist. (Off the topic, but I had to learn that real relationships take more time to develop: he got us into a fever at first which was, for many reasons, esp his disorder, unsustainable).

He wanted a "thing" to serve as his wife/girlfriend: he never wanted ME, who I was. I just "had the role" and I did not perform it well.

To have to admit that you were never loved is not a fun experience. But once I did it, I began to heal.

Gosh reading back through these... .I've changed.  Thank God!

I used to feel like she was my soul mate, nobody's touch would ever be the same.  Yuck!

I've let it go... .all of it.  Thank GOD.  Most of you know, it's been 18 years of hurt, guilt, anger, yearning, and believing I was in love with someone who isn't really even the someone I thought she was.  It took this second time around for things to make sense, to let go.  Finally, I am free!  I can breathe!  No more physical addiction, no more obsessive thinking... .

She is a horrible, dispicable person.  Mean, wretched, ugly... .a life filled with doom and gloom and all I have to say is a prayer for God to take care of her children and love them and for them to love each other and have great lives.

I'm just done with it all.  I have chosen to no longer be stuck.  I love myself and my family more and I am so very thankful that I was finally able to reclaim my life. 

When I first came here, I would read others posts who said that healing just takes time, that eventually we will all move on.  I couldn't see it on the horizon, but I swear, it's there.  And it feels liberating!  I wish happiness for all of you and I hate that so many of us hurt by these people who are just awful.

God Bless!

veryconfused, this is awesome to hear!

i am doing SO much better than the first time we talked!

i now have everything i need. :)

A lot of great rational and reasoning given here. I have thought about this a lot too and think that the BP can love in terms that they think are love, which are totally different in what we feel and give as love. To Ephie's items listed you have to ask yourself of them: 1) do they know and understand what love is? 2) do they really feel loved when it is bestowed upon them? 3) do they know how to love and give it to others? Did Scarlett really love Ashley or even Rhett, in the movie it appeared to be all a game, was it? Or was it her perception of what love was? I've seen several references here from people who feel jealous of the family pet because the SO in their life can give more hugs and cuddling to the dog or cat then they can to them. Why is it so hard for them to be tender and caring towards us yet goes for the dogs and make us feel foolish and rejected? I know many of us have done great and lovely things for our SO and just get rejected. What do they really feel when you do these things? Love to me can be a fire that can feed each other back and forth with a strong and emotionally secure person, with the BP partner the feeding fire didn't come back that often, sometimes a blast furnace and others a ice bath. When the BPSO in your life was highly functional then they have to be very aware of their environment to be able to fit in as normal, they have to adapt and wear that mask and compete for an Oscar most of the time. With lack of empathy and the emotional maturity of a child they have to adapt and act to survive. When you are at a wedding and see and hear the bride and groom say "I do" and kiss each other do you feel uplifted and a sense of happiness for them to come? Do you think a person afflicted with BPD can feel that? Most likely they will say it to them and others but later will criticize the union in private. For them to compete in life's requirements they show what they have learned and observed from others but they might not feel it, I think this would be extremely frustrating to me. They know what love is suppose to be and they can imitate it but can they feel it and give it? Two people who love and engage each other healthily build a strong emotional bond between them and they keep filling each other's cup up. Are these things that a BP can do and feel around you?

Sorry, just the way I have thought about how they love and fuel a relationship.

Do they really love?

In our experience,

NO

 I agree, that they cannot love, which is why they cannot feel love, either. And that must make for a very flat life. That is one reason that their minds are freed to become so concerned about things, procedures, lists, and rules. I read where BPD is a disorder of emotional regulation and immaturity: they are stuck at about the age of three as far as emotional maturity goes.

Three year olds are really not capable of love, as we, adults, know it. They cannot control their tempers, and think of where they are in life: Like you guys said earlier in this thread, they are in the "imitation" stage, where they are watching others model behavior, and they are imitating it.  If they go on to mature, emotionally, they would learn to experience the emotions that go with the behaviors, but for various reasons, many still unknown, these BPD people get fixated at that stage, forever. So their bodies, and their intellects, continued to grow, but that emotional side just stays childlike.

I am just wondering, now, if that childlike emotional level might be part of what makes them attractive to us. I never thought about that before. But, along with that comes the inability to form mature loving attachments.

This is really sad, when I look at it.

OMG! I just remembered what my bp would always say after we made love: ":)id I do good?" and it was just like a little boy asking his mom!

(and, yes, he did).

Do I think that BPDs are capable of "true Love"?  Absolutly not!  Not talking about falling "in love".  I am talking about the 1Corinthians chapter 13 love.  Kindness, no jelousy, patients, not putting themselves ahead of others.  Sacrificial love.  I think it is like someone asking me asking me to speak Chinese.  I have no clue.  I dont think they know ghow to love.

So who does she love?  Great question?  does she even know what love is?

mtn,

I like your explanation, it makes me realize that while I do think my ex loved me, she was more in love with my love for her.  If I was validating her, complimenting her, feeding her ego and bandaging her insecurities then she was loving me.   It was never enough for me to tell her, "sharing this day with you has made it wonderful", I'd have to literally give her a list of just what all her wonderful qualities were.   In the later years of our relationship, it really got on my nerves and sickened me.   Hell, after ten years you still need me to give you a list?  Did you not believe me for the previous nine years for gosh sake?    It was exhausting sometimes.

Proof positive, they only love themselves, but the sad thing is, they can't help it and you can't fix it.

31 years of being with a self-centered, non-caring, manipulative, unpredictable psycho but only in the last 6 months has there been a realization that my BPD/NPD/PPD only "loves" themself.   But, you know what, she really doesn't even love herself thanks to her psycho Mom who made her what she is today IMHO.

In a recent "discussion" with my uBPDh I told him that I thought he enjoyed being unhappy. Sometimes he will take the things I say to heart and try a little self examining. He bought a book, Addicted to Unhappiness. I have not read the book so I have to rely on his interpretation. (Bear in mind that he is prone to taking things out of context.) His take on the message was that when his mother would rage at him, resulting in his feeling bad, that this was the way his mother wanted him to feel, the way he should feel. That he was making her happy by feeling bad.

Now jump ahead to the present day, my speculations only. When he rages at me, and I feel horrible because of it, is this his way of showing me how much he loves me? His mother loved him and left him feeling totally worthless. Isn't this what love is all about? Destroying others?

No, I do not believe my h loves himself inspite of NP tendencies. Because he cannot love himself, I do not believe he can love anyone else.

NPDs don't love themselves, either. Their (false) confidence makes them appear to love themselves, but they truly don't, of course.

All PDs loathe themselves (and then take it out on the significant others in their lives).

People who have the capacity to love (and who love themselves) do NOT abuse others. So that eliminates PDs from the equation.

As someone else wrote, I would not treat an enemy how stbx has treated me. They HATE themselves, so hate/abuse others.

 My exbp's home is a complete altar to his search for self. He has photos of himself all around his desk, so he can look at himself while he is doing desk work.

He has notes from his mother and son saying "I love you ---" on the doors.

He has his awards and memorabilia all displayed in the living room.

He seems to need a validation around him all of the time, in his search for self.

Everything reinforces him. And yet, I don't think it is working... .

Ironically, he continually displays signs asking for "peace" and describes himself as "brings peace into the room" which, hel-LO, is NOT what he brings.

Just the opposite. But, apparently, he either does not know that, or refuses to acknowledge it.

As a side remark, every note I ever wrote him he immediately threw into the trash.

 

Simple answer ... .no one

Complex answer ... .I think they can love in the present moment but cannot contextualize love over a period of time hence the reason for out of sight out of mind. Whereas we understand love to be about both the negative and positive experience the good and the bad as galvanizing products of a relationship.

Things are going well it's like they can't stand the peace and need to make things go wrong in order to feel on balance. They thrive on the chaos.

My ex told me she felt like an alien. She told me thought she was evil. She told me she thought she was a bad person.

They think they are bad, tainted, evil, corrupt and so when that isn't playing out they need to do something to prove thie feelings are correct so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy but only in reverse.

My understanding was that a BPD craves intimacy and I guess love but are terrified of it so reject it? She wants to love you but is terrified of the closeness. Joe

craving love isn't loving.

wanting a baby isn't loving a baby.

desiring an ideal one thinks is love isn't love.

love is a complex thing.

when one is missing a consistent sense of self and proportionality, empathy, etc.  is it fair to expect that person to really "love"?

I'm quite sure my BPD mom doesn't "love" me in any sort of normal way, not because of who I am, but because of who she is.  She simply doesn't have the skills.

just thoughts.

molly

wow i agree with everything you guys are saying... .my ex would behave very childlike and play games such as "if you dont do this i wont do... .fill in the blank"... my therapist says that i was more of a mother to him than a gf and now i see she is so true i would try to calm him down in his rage and i swear i would be talking like a kindergartin teacher yet nothing worked... .he even had dreams that he would be peeing in a urinal and then wet the bed which my pysch says shows he is very toddler like maturity wise... .children do this when they are scared or going through horrible times... .in the relationship i know i wasnt an angel either i yelled back if things got bad i couldnt take him calling me names and i would yell at him to stop or leave... .i used to sit and regret the times i yelled because i know love is what BPD's need more than anything but i see now that no matter how much love i gave him it would have never been enough.

I don't think they can love anyone, really. My H continually told me how smart/successful he was yet, he was trying to convince himself.

His mother made him feel worthless. He was expelled from 2 schools and he said the day he took an IQ test to get into uni, he cried, because he was in the top 2% in intelligence. From then on, it was him trying to convince himself, that he really was a worthwhile person. Someone who truly thinks that does not need the continual validation.

So love is the same. He told me he loved me over and over. He showed it sometimes but other times he hated me with a passion. I was always so baffled. I couldn't understand, until I came here.

But their love is just a 'feeling', not something concrete. It's however he felt at the time. He loves his son now, only because he can 'control' him. Once he starts to think for himself and live his own life, heaven help him. I do not think they know how to love at all.

Hi Very confused,  Unfortunately that is a truly honest question that most people in a relationship with a BPD person will eventually ask.  It took me a long time to work that out and the answer lay in understanding BPD.  The more I understood about BPD the more different views I could look at the relationship.  In a way I think many of them act out because that is the life they have become used to, whether that be controlling, manipulationg, mirroring, abusive etc it makes them feel something that we just don't understand.  I personally believe they feel love for their partner but I also think that love fades as other issues become more dominant in their minds.  Their day to day existence is so mentally confusing for them but their are two people in a relationship and one just can not roll over just because the other wants it that way...

The bottom line is - what makes you happy, what is acceptable to you.     

Michael - your statement is so correct: "In a way I think many of them act out because that is the life they have become used to, whether that be controlling, manipulationg, mirroring, abusive etc it makes them feel something that we just don't understand.  I personally believe they feel love for their partner but I also think that love fades as other issues become more dominant in their minds.".

Wow that really hits home with me.

Thanks.

It just amazes me when I read some of these posts.  Its like you can see right into my life.  We all experience some of the same things and feel the same way.  It just makes my jaw drop at times.

dupcheck, I love that about this board, that our bpdfamily write things that we could have written.  It's so healing at times.

I related to what Dusk said:


Once my SDthen14 decided to live with us 3 hours away from momster, she was painted black and verbally abused to high heaven.  It was extremely painful for her.  She started to think for herself and was no longer in total control of momster.  Did not mirror 'Jackal' anymore.  The 'motherly love' was simply turned off like a light switch! 

You'd think that if these people cannot even 'love' their own children, how can they have a true, beautiful, meaningful, successful relationship with a partner?  I truly don't think it's possible after seeing what happened to my sweet SD.

Michael

I don't doubt that my ex loved me.  Learning about BPD and BPD behaviors has been all consuming and takes some time to process and understand how this played into the relationship.  So, my ex loved me.  But what about when she was leaving?  She told me that I was the love of her life, she had never loved anyone like she loved me, yet... .she knew she had already started making plans to be with a new person/lover, knew she was lying to me, how is it that you treat the love of your life this way?  A self-fulfilling prophecy... .if they can't love themselves, how dare anyone else love them? 

And then projecting that I am harassing her and sending me an email asking me to leave her alone.  Then shows up in my neighborhood once a week.  My therapist gets pissed that I think and wonder what my ex is thinking.  Well, how can I not?  She told me never to walk away, to keep trying no matter what and no matter how hard she pushes away... .but darn, we do have our limits, you know?  So I don't contact her, don't respond to her email, don't respond to her being in my neighborhood... .am I failing her?  Because I do know in my heart that she did love me, wanted us to be friends forever, but she is sick and insane.  I can't live with her illness because she freaks me out and being involved with her in any way would jeopordize my sanity and my family... .but I hate loose ends and I hate that I am unable to find peace with my decision to stay no contact even though she initiated it, insisted on it, yet here she shows herself again... .maybe waiting for me to keep my word, maybe waiting to make verbal accusations at me again... .in anycase... .I'm still searching for my own closure with it all.

vc... .your last post ... .

the words... the feelings behind them... .

i felt them... .

my ex... .said... .

im never lettting you walk away again... .well i walked... .

I too do not think they actually know how to love. At the very least they certainally cannot recognize it.

At one of our counselling sessions she told the counsellor 'I remember jumping up & down on my bed as a little girl crying that nobody loves me'.

She made a comment a while after our 10th anniversary 'he really does love me' when we were talking about a 3 diamond anniversary ring I had bought her (1 carot total,  $$$$$ which we didn't have a lot of). And I remember thinking well of course I love you, why would you think otherwise? (can you say another red flag ignored).

Most times going to bed she would always ask "do you still love me?".

And her excuse for having an affair - I didn't feel loved.

After 22 years. Showing time after time that you thought she was wonderful and special and sexy and telling her you loved her.

But she didn't feel loved.

Well ... .I know how she feels now. Paint me black.

So who do they love? No one based in reality. They love some impossible ideal person who will never be found.

I would venture to say she would find some fault in Jesus Christ Himself if she were married to Him - and she wouldn't feel loved either.

LOL

My h can actually verbalise this - that he's looking for the perfect relationship and knows it doesn't exist (of course he says this when we are together which is always a joy!).  He has left more than once and found what to all intents and purposes IS the perfect relationship for him (I even tell him she's perfect for him!) but it never lasts and he wants to come back.  He knows I'm not perfect (and I am quite happy not to be) and everything is OK for a while and then the whole cycle repeats.

Now, after taking him back and trying to understand his deep pain and be reasonable about the devastating effect it is having on others, I still get the message as he was leaving this time that I don't really care about him!  (there really should be a little icon that tears its hair out or a WTH speech bubble!)

It wasn't like this for most of our 20-odd years together but like lost2me there was, looking back, those pesky red flags of needing a lot of affirmation about my love for him.  I think he did love me - quite tenderly at times - but since we entered OZ bigtime, I feel it's more like need than love a lot of the time.

tiger

Soo true Matt! I think we all need to take something from these words!

What she feels who knows?  But if it doesn't translate into behavior, what difference does it make what she feels? 

I think it's all in the moment. They love you in THAT moment... .until they find someone else to love. Then they love THAT person.

And when that person screws up... .well they revert back to loving you again... .or someone else.

Love truly is in the moment. That's all it is. It can change from moment to moment, person to person. It's not that one person truly is better than the other... .it's just the "new toy" your ex is interested in playing with at that time... .that's all.

It's hard to wrap our heads around because to a normally functioning person, love is a constant.

My ex told me she loved me so much and would always be in my life. Dropped me, replaced me... .slandered me and has not spoken to me in four months.

That is NOT normal.

You almost have to look at the word love as just a word. Think about a little kid who says, "but I love him. We are going to get married" about their 2nd grade crush.

That is the emotional reality you are dealing with.  They don't possess the capacity for an adult reciprocal relationship.

But you do.

PW

My ex was incapable of an adult relationship, love, give and take, dealing with mine disagreements.

She said to me she loved me like family - to which my response was "do you always treat your family like crap ? " which said it all.

She has a young son, who she only has visitation rights to, and she is incapable of loving him like a mother should - put his needs and requirements first, give the best she could possibly can, give him a hug when he needs it, take an interest his life.

She has so much shame, guilt and she loathes herself - how on earth can you be capable of loving anyone else. I learnt a long long time ago you can't love anyone else until you learn to love yourself first.

It is a very sad disorder that leaves a trail of destruction and hurt because of impulsively and looking for the next shiny toy.