Print Page - Good Example for me

My boundary setting is still a work in progress but I am working on this and seeing some results. Today I realized a really good example of why I need boundaries and I wanted to share it. A gentlemen who works in my office and I am friends with has a son who is 36 years old and a daughter who is 32. His son has had issues all of his life. He is diagnosed with OCD (he tells me nothing else although I suspect more). We have been sharing war stories with each other for the past two years and trying to give each other encouragement and helpful advice. The son has over many many years loses every job that he has. Always the same reason, he is unreliable and cannot get to work on time. When he loses his job he sits at home "applying for jobs on the computer" waiting for the job he wants. My friend and his wife pay all his bills, give him spending money, cigarette money and so on. Thier house is a virtual war zone with constant fighting. He recently was out of work for two years "looking for a job". I have suggested to my friend that they seek out therapy for their son, he won't go or goes once or twice then refuses to go. I have suggested my friend and his wife go to therapy, they go haphazardly and never follow through with anything but complaining. I have shared with him how much I have learned through therapy and DBT and have brought them the information at thier request at least a dozen times... . they do nothing. Today my friend came to work very upset because after only two weeks at the new job he already sees old habits creeping in. Leaving the house later and later. He had worked himself into such a state this morning that he had to take a tranquilizer to come into the office. I saw he was upset so we went downstairs for a cup of tea and I askd him what he was worried about and he said that his son will lose yet another job. This is probably more likely than not. I asked him what his plan was should his son lose this job and he said he didn't know and I suggested that he put some boundaries in place. It is time that there is some consequence for his actions or lack there of action. We talked about what kinds of boundaries he could have. I suggested maybe thinking about letting him know that if he loses his job he will not be taken care of. That he is there to support him in what he needs to be succesfu at this job but should he chose to follow the same pattern that he will have to find his own way. I shared with him how hard it is but how important it is for ourselves to have boundaries and also for our children. He said he could never do that and he thought it ws terrible that I would actually ever consider doing this to one of my children.

I guess the moral of the story for me was how important boundaries really are. I am setting boundaries for DD and although it is hard I am giving her the tools that she needs to be successful in life. To understand that there are consequences for our actions. I don't want her to be unable to function at 36 or think that it is okay to not function because someone always saves you. I will always be there to help her if she falls as long as she is trying. I am going to try really hard to remember this example each time I need to set a boundary and to remind myself that my boundaries are not only for me but also for her.

That is a good example, Griz :) And, I think that co-worker is lucky to have you to listen to him and give him advice. Now, if he would just take it... .

It does sound like his son is more than OCD. And therapy would be so good for him (the son) and also his parents. Your boundaries seem perfect to me; compassionate and loving and helpful to the child, but protective of the parents' well-being. If the father could do what you suggested, maybe it would help the son be more self-sufficient... . IF the son's issues were pinpointed and treated. Their mess of a household reminds me of our household prior to my 36 year old son's BPD diagnosis and treatment. Good luck to your friend, and good on you for really being on the ball! |iiii

we have two tools in our tool kit: boundaries and validation, right? (anyone know others pls tell :)

I think we have so much to learn from those around us in regard to both these things. When we stop dwelling on ourselves and our self pity and begin to take control of our own lives, we can have such a powerful influence.

Thing is, other people are always there to learn from. So, if we fall back or stumble, we can reach out to others for support and look at others for their example of what to do or what not to do.

griz, you would be a wonderful friend. That guy doesn't know how good you are, poor man. Not just a good friend but a darned wonderful mum too!

Boundaries work for dh and I and dd.

Vivek

I was going to take your suggestion and tell him to get the book, however as it seems with all my suggestions he yes's me to death and then does nothing. He really is a good person, but I think he is just paralyzed by his own fear. So afraid of his own son but when he talks to me I look in his eyes and see such a sad man. I remember the first few times I knew I had to put boundaries in place I was shaking in my boots as to how DD would react and the first few times it wasn't pleasant at all.

So my good deed for the day is I am going to stop at the bookstore on my way to group tonight and see if I can pick him up a copy or if not I will order one and just give it to him as a gift. I really want to try to help him and I told him this morning over tea ( in a serious/joking and friendly way) that if he doesn't start making some small changes he is not allowed to complain to me anymore and I reminded him that there was nothing he could say that I would ever, ever judge because I understand.

I guess if I had to find the silver lining in my BPD world it would be that I have learned to try to understand the plight of others and the importance of just being there with a hug when someone needs one.

Griz

Vivek - the other tool we use is self-care, and letting go of feeling guilty about put this first on our list. Without this we cannot tolerate to do the work to find our values and believe in figuring out the boundaries to protect those values. We have to validate our own emotional place first before we can be sincere in practicing validation with another. This finding myself first has been the hardest step.

Griz, maybe this is the hardest, first step for your co-worker. This may be why he cannot follow through on all the excellent advice he has recieve from you and from even his own therapy. The first chapter of "I dont have to make everthing all better" is where I first got a push to do this for myself. The "Universal Need": I AM OF WORTH, MY FEELINGS MATTER, AND SOMEONE REALLY CARES ABOUT ME. [ch1, page 15]qcr

Well as my mom would say, "no good deed goes unpunished". So Thursday I actually made a trip the book store to find the book for my friend. They didn't have it in stock but told me they could order it or I should try Amazon. So Friday morning I came into work and went on Amazon and ordered the book. I thought about how I would approach the subject and decided over my morning tea that I would tell my friend that I heard about this book and ordered two copies, one for each of us. I suggested that it might help us both if we read it together and then we could talk about it and give each other suggestions and ideas. He seemed aminable to this. Later in the morning I was having a conversation with a few of my coworkers in the kitchen and we were talking about how glad we were that it was Friday. I said I was so glad as I was so tired that this morning I didn't want to get out of bed and I was so tired that on my way to the bathroom I knocked on DD's door to wake her and on my way back to the bathroom I forgot I was going there and got back in bed. We all started laughing and then my friend who happened to be there chimed in with, "Oh, are you her alarm clock? Shouldn't she be able to get out of bed by herself"? He said this in a not very nice tone. I explained that every morning I knock on DD's door for and she has always liked this because she then knows she has about 15 minutes more to doze in her bed before her alarm goes off. Later in the day, one of my coworkers asked me how my older daughter was enjoying her vacation. She had left for California with her bf two days prior. I said, "Gee I haven't spoken to her since she landed two days ago, she is probably having a great time. Maybe I will give her a call" which I did. It went to voice mail and I left a message. Once again my friend who was nearby commented in a very sarcastic tone, " Why are you keeping tabs on her, having a little trouble with boundaries?" I started to defend myself and then just decided to ignore it. There were a few other comments during the day and in the end I went home without even saying goodbye.

I feel so hurt by this. I have been very careful when we talk and I offer advice to not be condesending in any way and more often than not I will always say that I understand what he is going through since I am there myself. I don't know what to make of this. We have been good friends for years and have always been there for each other. He has seen me at my worst and he knows my daily struggles and I have seen him at his worst also. I would hate to see our relationship end like this. I am thinking I would like to have a conversation with him about it but I don't know what to say. Any suggestions?

Griz

Griz

Is this the first time he has been sarcastic with you? In front of others? Have your conversations about family issues always been private before? Do you confide with others, or make general comments as part of casual conversation?

My dh uses sarcasm a lot - his primary defense strategy. It does not work at all with gd7 - she is just beginning to shift into more abstract thinking ability. DD27 gets angry with it. I get angry with it. It is just so very invalidating.

Do you think asking him to do the book together could be threatening to him? Fell like a criticism to him of all the counseling work he has already done? Maybe his self-concept is that he already is working the tools of boundaries and maybe from a 'tough love' point of view. Maybe he tends to project the problem as only on his son - ie. if only his son would 'get it' things would be ok.

This is where I started 4 years ago when I first came to bpdfamily.com. My DD was evicted, homeless and I was deeply into FOG. When so many around me asked "what are you doing for yourself?" I felt more anger. The problem was DD, not me. I was OK, she was not. it took me lots of exposure to resources here and at Al Anon to get past my intense resistence.

Do you think a casual comment to him, privately, that maybe you could each read the book seperately to see if it fit. You had heard good things about. He would know what works best in his situation.

My 2 cents

qcr

Hi Griz,

first off, I want to say - you've been such a good friend to him! And, I am sorry the situation backfired on you.

In the book "Boundaries" the authors give an example of parents with a child similar to your coworker's. The parents approach the authors with "we need help, our son has a problem". Then they proceed to explain the situation. The author says "I don't think your son has a problem". The parents are incredulous. The author then explains: your son's actions do not cause him any difficulties. He has all of his needs taken care of. It only causes difficulties to you. Now, how can we make it his problem and not yours? :light:

The above is something that you understand. Your coworker probably has ways to go before that light-bulb lights up for him... .

I have read a universal quote about children (of all ages and abilities/disabilities) that I REALLY liked. Here is the quote/paraphrase "If we do for our children what they are capable of doing for themselves, they will transform us into their maids and treat us as such."

It says a lot about self-respect (theirs and our own) and respect for others.

I think (speculate) that your coworker may have taken the conversation about boundaries a bit personally, as a judgement of his ability to parent. Also, he may see boundaries rather as a punishment than a teaching/self-protection tool. In light of what happened, I wonder if the idea of reading the book together would be threatening to him and his image as a 'good parent'.

Could his sarcasm have been his projection of feeling criticized and judged regarding his abilities as a parent?

In any way, from what you said about him and his wife, I would not be surprised if they kept doing the same thing over and over until the situation becomes really unbearable, before they would become serious about seeking help and change... .

As for a conversation with him about what happened - I am myself only learning to address issues head on rather than dancing around them... . I find it is a good idea to clear the air. I try to use "I" statements and ask a question to let the other person tell me their side of the story. That way it is less like a confrontation... .

Hang in there, Griz, you are doing wonderful with your dd. That's important. You can't make it all better for your coworker, if he is not ready to work on himself yet... .

Thank you all for your support. Although I thought reading the book together and bouncing ideas off each other would be a good idea I realize this morning after our morning tea that I need to not continue having these discussions with him. I started the conversation by apologizing if I offended him in any way and that was not what I meant to do and that I was just trying to share some things that might help. I used bpdfamily.com as my example of getting such good supportive advice from others that walk the same walk and that I have very often found some great advice. I also mentioned that sometimes I try to implement what someone might offer and it doesn't always work, but I am open to trying anything.

Here is where I realized that I am just spinning my wheels and that I am only frustrating myself. He is not open to trying anything. No matter what I suggest he has a reason why it won't work. This I find very frustrating, it is almost like dealing with a teenager. Today he was upset that he is pretty sure his son will lose this job also as he has already started to leave later and later for work. He is such a wreck over this that once again he had to take a tranquilizer before coming to work. I suggested that he back off and allow his son to fail, but really fail, as in if he loses his job stop saving him. STop giving him money and supporting him. His answer was that he will never do that but he knows his son will never change either. I found myself feeling very annoyed at the fact that he keeps reaching out for help and then shoots everything down that I say, so I just told him that he might want to find someone that could help him with this. This he shot down by saying that a T is only going to tell him the same thing I do, to stop enabling his son. I told him that I value his friendship and that I am really not equipt to counsel someone and I feel like this is putting a strain on our relationship. I told him I would be there for him in anyway that I could and the only advice that I could offer going forward is to try to find a T that he feels comfortable working with.

I feel a bit sad right now but I realize I have to let go of this. I am putting my boundaries in place.

Griz

It is sad when we try to show others an easy solution to their pain and they just turn on us. That would have been so hurtful Griz and you are such a caring person, it is quite unfair.

a few ideas Griz:

1) the bible tells me not to throw my pearls before swine, because they will just trample them in the mud and then turn on me.

2) often when a person is open enough to feel challenged (two steps forward), they will retaliate and regress (one step back)

3) Next time I heard something like that which he said, I would try to validate it: "It seems to me that you feel angry (or whatever it is) about things we have discussed." You know the form there :)

4) I would be thinking about a boundary where I didn't have to listen to him complaining about his family all the time. That negative energy must be draining you. The value would probably be respect: it hurts me to see you having such a hard time with your son and to know that no matter how much I care, I can't help you.

You know best griz, just don't let the b*st#rds get to you,

Vivek

A major shift occurs when we realize and accept that the best way to help our children/adult children is to change ourselves. Making this shift is best done through self discovery. Coming in and giving someone the keys to the kingdom before they are ready can sometimes cause a backlash. Telling someone how they need to change versus discovering, learning and accepting why they need to change themselves may not hold the same value for them, they may not be ready to accept this. ... . therefore the push back.

Your friend pointing out to you and others what he perceives to be faults in your parenting shows his resentment. It is similar to an alcoholic telling a recovered alcoholic ":)on't tell me what to do, you were worse than me." He is not ready to make that shift. Being a validating presence for him and asking him validating questions to help him find his own answers is the best gift you can give him.

griz,

Taking a tranquilizer before work, yikes, that guy must be beside himself, confused, raw and terrified. Covering it up with sarcasm... .

His comments are all emotion mind... . he isn't thinking... .

Not to say that he is your responsibility... .

You know, I never understood this concept about changing ourselves. In Canada, I don't hear that term often; however, now I see that it means using new strategies and skills. To me, it always sounded like something very radical. So, yes, he needs new strategies and skills, clearly.

He is in that place of no solutions, at the moment, but he can't envision the next step. Just like all of us, he lashes out.

Probably, he needs some peace and quiet. The fear, whilst watching a child unravel, is unbearable.

lbjnitx,

I also don't understand what you mean by self-discovery. Is that like figuring out what makes you tick? I am not being sarcastic. I honestly don't understand.

Isn't the pushback what we all do when confronted with something that is painful? :)on't we all need a team of people around us, helping us contain that pain?

I mean this guy is not so unusual. But he does need a team of support, a T for himself, a family T, a kind family and good friends, who speak the truth. Hopefully, he will be able to make a network of support so he can deal with this very difficult problem.

It is my humble opinion that one comes to know oneself only in community, a kind, supportive community, like some people find at bpdfamily and with Ts and friends, etc.

Reality

It is not within your power to orchestrate the outcome... .

You can only try to ceate opportunities... .

qcarol: thank you for the gentle reminder.

Ahhhhhhh, one of my biggest faults. I want to fix things. I am learning to do this with DD, now to recognize when I am doing it else where. Even though it is coming from a good place in my heart and I just want to help him and not see him in pain... . I CANNOT FIX THIS and this I must learn. viv and lb yes I can validate his feelings.

Reality: yes, emotional mind. I think he is stuck there right nowand lashing out is what we do when we are trapped.

I will try to be a better friend and just validate and listen and let him know that I believe that he is doing the best he can right now.

Griz

Reality

Yes a community. This past few I have put hard effort into gathering this around me. A supportive caring compassionate yet honest support network. I have isolated myself for so very in viewing my parenting as failed that this took a great paradym shift. An entirely new way of viewing myself and the inherent need to be on two way relationships. I no longer could survive my suffering alone. Thinking I could be self sufficient and in control.

Gd's T gave me the book "creating loving attachments" to guide me in letting go of dd and creating the home that gd needs to mature. It is very much based in how our body and brain intend for us to be in relationship with each. This is required to grow into a fully functioning adult. My impact is limited with dd esp. Since she is not able to choose treatment. Someome else in her community will be the one to create opportunities for her. I have to nurture myself and gd. And my marriage. And my new friendships.

My sadness today for our BPD kids is how they seem to be limited in connecting with others that care. Lack if empathy or limited skills here. Even when I can be in. Good validating space she is often not able to join me there. That is when my boundaries asking for respectful language and tone of voice work for me. If she wants me present ie. Not queitly detached or actually leaving-work for me. Or I just leave because I am unable to be in a validating place.

Not sure if all this applies to this thread.

Qcr

Hi Reality,

I believe I understand what you are saying and agree - but with some sort of difference I think. Here's how I see it.

We like to be with like minded people. Our friends and those we choose to love tend to be like us. Our family we are born in to tend to be like minded too. Those closest to us are like us. To those we love who are having a difficult time in one way or another, we want to help them. eg my sister struggles to respond calmly to health concerns regarding my mum - I may want to help her see it differently so she understands more what the situation is.

Where we live there is a pre existing community with a culture which we may completely emerge ourselves with, or we may not want to accept in part or more. This community culture we may want to influence in order to bring about change - eg I would like to be able to change the way my culture responds to people with mental illness, esp BPD.

When we work we adapt also to a pre existing culture. We may fit in completely or there may be bits we don't fit in with. We may accept this or may want to change it, eg if the lunchtable conversation is casually sexist, we may want that to stop.

The examples I gave above involve me wanting to change or influence my community. There is a lot of 'ego' in that. Yes, we need the support of our community to help us be the person we want to be, we are social animals. But we are also acting in our community and influencing it. If we want to bring about a change, it is most effective (and fits my values of co-operation, peace, democracy and so forth) if I look to myself first.

I am in a choir, we are singing a Michael Jackson song, 'Man in the Mirror' - I love it. It says in part, 'if you wanna make the world a better place take a look at yourself and make a change'

Me, I am looking at the woman in the mirror. I have consciously changed some of my community so that I have more people who think like me around me, people who are interested in making their personal change in some way or another, people who can support me in my journey. This hasn't meant 'dropping' people, it's just a naturally occurring change. Like coming here and chatting with you

Most importantly, I actively self reflect on my own thinking and behaviour (as you do) I try to inform myself and through critical self reflection (not negative critical but thorough thoughtful critical) in order to become a better person and be a better influence in my world, my community. Given I have my own BPD family, this can be a challenge - but I have my BPD family here to give me support.

Vivek

Vivek ananda,

We are all so complex! It may sound funny; however, I actually look for people, who are not like me because I discover all sorts of different ways of being that way and I find it interesting and rather fun.

I have zero sense of being on a journey or changing myself. I have a deep sense that each dear soul here has a special gift, full of wonder, already just the way they are meant to be, including myself. I guess I trust that all is well. I really do love strangeness in people. It makes me laugh and I feel less alone.

That being said, I am fascinated by lbjnitx's description of self-discovery because it reminds me of what qcaroir has told us has been helpful for her. I guess I am thinking there is something brilliantly organic about knowing one self through community, whatever form that takes. Qcaroir's daughter goes out to the street to her community. It helps her. RTFs are all about community, hopefully. Falconridge seems to offer that wonderful sense that adults do care and the kids feel it and know it.

This lies close to the bone for me, as I could never make helpful connections with others in the isolation of trying to help my son. Now that he is dead, it is very strange as so many people are actually being kind to me. It is as if they realize now that I did have a real problem and that I did need help. It is so good, yet so bitter-sweet.

My sister says that I have a strong persona and it is threatening to others. Maybe that makes sense. It is hard to feel threatened by someone who has had the terrible misfortune of losing a son, so people are kind. Or maybe there is just a deep mystery at play and I am full of baloney.

I am sure many would like me to change myself, but I don't think about that.

Reality

Hey Reality, I do think I get what you are saying and I don't think you are baloney at all.

I knew as I was writing that my 'logic' would be contrary to your 'whimsy' (would that be the right word? perhaps 'ethereal' but that's an adjective, not a noun... . ) I thought I could try to do stream of consciousness to show you the value of this 'personal change', but nope, I'd just be dabbling with words. So, I will stick to my logic mind and leave my whimsy mind deep in my recesses for my own self - my whimsy mind gets me into trouble

So, I was listening to the radio last night. A clinical scientist, a doctor, has done research into the death experience for those who die and who return to live with us again. Some of these deaths can last hours if the situation is right (cold slows down cell degeneration etc). This is not a man of religion he said. One thing I heard made me listen intently. Apart form the tunnel, the light and so on. Many people report being able to see their life and there is no one 'judging' them, instead they see where they have hurt others, whether deliberately or accidentally, and they feel the pain of the hurt they were responsible for. He said there are enough reports from thousands of people across all countries and what they say corroborates others experiences.

I thought of my dd who feels that I abused her all her life. Now, thanks to being open to change, I understand what she means, before I didn't. I didn't do anything wrong, but I hurt her. Imagine if I died and had to feel the hurt of her pain that I had created, without knowing about it beforehand and trying to change it around? To do that I have to change myself, my thinking and my actions. My good intentions are nothing without me recognising the effect I have on others, acknowledging that and trying to be a better person. In particular, given my values, and who I am, I work hard at practising letting go of my ego and listening to the emotional needs of others to support them compared with indulging my own ego and overlooking the emotional needs of others. (see my avatar)

Now, between just you and me, I think we are more alike than we look :) and I believe that you are also on the same journey - your words over the time that I have been on the board, show me that.

Cheers,

Vivek

Vivek ,

Thanks for sharing the radio talk about death to life stories. I have spent time reading of this topic many years ago - still have books on my shelf. Early 90's in that PTSD time of my life. Poor little DD - she was caught in the fall-out and I cannot go back and undo the pain my emotional distress poured over her. And she was struggling mightily with her own disorganized brain and deregulated emotions during that important formative time in her life. I feel like I scrambled her like an egg sometimes.

And now I have to put this distance between us to protect gd - to give gd a chance. And dd knows this is what is happening. I cannot know the depth of her pain or sense of abandonment. She has not contacted me or responded to any of my reminder texts this week. Then it has only been 3 days.

I will be in court for her on Friday. Dh is staying home with gd. He knows the judge from his work place – retirement community where the judge’s mom lived prior to her recent passing. Dh does not want to be a distraction or present any conflict for dd.

Reality - I know that sense of others not getting me. Looking confused at my enthusiastic yet intimidating sharing of some new idea or article or book. There is a real thrill for me - I talk faster, louder, wave my arms in the air. They even think I am angry sometimes I am so intense. Dh justs shuts down and wants me to be quiet -- or to leave the room. Gd too.

So I come here and do a brain dump. And it is amazing that you all listen and seem to get it, well most of the time. :)

You give us all such a great perspective, Reality. I am so glad you are here.

qcr

A journey... . yes I believe that. My life is a journey full of meeting new people and I feel like I am constantly learning. I have often been referred to as quirky. Yes I am but I am also okay with that. I wasn't always. I used to be very self concious and tried to fit in but over time I have learned to accept myself for who I am, what my limitations are and I can accept others as they are. All of you here have helped me with that, helped to accept myself. Reality, I full remember the isolation from others. I was the mother of the kid with "a problem". Noone reached out to help and I have never felt so alone in my life. None of those lost friendships have ever rekindled and although I do not want them back there is a part of me that is still lonely.

I do believe that we are on this journey together. Like a family. When I write about us in my book we are truly a very lively and loving bunch and Oh how I wish my bookstore really existed.

Griz

BPDFamily.com

Children, Parents, or Relatives with BPD => Son, Daughter or Son/Daughter In-law with BPD => Topic started by: griz on June 05, 2013, 02:52:12 PM