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My husband was out of state for four days for his nephew's graduation and I had a wonderful "stay-cation". We spoke on the phone everyday and he told me how stressed he felt to be around his FOO. They all were drinking heavily and even he was shocked by how excessive it was. One night he attempted to persuade me to attend his niece's wedding and when I balked, he said he'd "kill himself" if I didn't go.

Now he was being frivolous and being drunk, I shouldn't have taken it seriously, but it's a major trigger for me since my ex-husband threatened me with suicide on many occasions.

Also I was under the mistaken notion that the wedding was going to be in New York City and big cities equal anxiety for me. I told him that I'd have to get off the phone and I hung up. He called me time after time and I didn't answer. I wanted to go to bed and I was really upset thinking about being pressured to attend this wedding. I sent him an email, and didn't read the half dozen emails he had sent, saying I couldn't talk about this now.

The next morning, he was cold and formal on the phone after the extinction burst. We chatted a couple of times that day. However, the following day he was friendly and happy and I was going to pick him up at the airport.

He was OK when I saw him and on our drive home, I asked him about his trip. I felt like an interviewer on TV; I kept up the conversation, getting him to talk, but he showed no interest in asking about me. (I guess that's fairly typical.)

Things totally went south when we got home and he entered his studio. I had bought him lightweight suitcases from Costco and the big box was on the floor inside. I went into the house as he unpacked. I noticed that immediately he put the box outside. I was very surprised when he said nothing about the suitcases because he had been complaining about how heavy his are and worried about weight limits for a trip he will be making to England in a couple of months.

Hours went by with no comment about the suitcases, until late at night he finally said in a surly tone, "What am I supposed to do with this box?"

I said, in a very pleasant tone, "Open it and if you don't like them, I'll return it. Costco has a great return policy." I was really shocked by his rudeness. One of my friends humorously suggested that I smack him with one of the suitcases to demonstrate how lightweight they are. Another friend called him a pompous ass. For a man who scrupulously tries to be polite to acquaintances, I was appalled by his behavior.

Anyway, since then, for a couple of days now, he's been distant and remote. I joked with another friend that he was insulted because I bought them at Costco, when what he probably wanted was Louis Vuitton luggage.

Any ideas about this behavior? I'm acting like everything is normal.

Cat Familiar,

I'm thinking that "calling him on the rudeness" but in an open and indirect way, is probably called for.  Perhaps there is a weird thing going on in his head where is he like, "I can't believe she is letting me treat her this way"


So something like "Hey, I experienced that comment as you being rude (or hurtful).    What did you mean by that comment and tone?"

Thoughts?  Ever spoken to him that way?

OBTW, yeah, sounds like he was being an ass after you did something really nice for him.

FF

Thanks, FF. It's worth a try and it's a lot gentler than what I used to do before coming here, which was more like "Why are you being such a jerk?" I've learned to seriously tone down my straightforwardness so perhaps I've got some wiggle room again.

On the other hand, he went into the "poor me" syndrome when I didn't answer the phone a few days ago after telling him I was done with the conversation. "How could you be so unkind? You'd never treat any of your animals like this. I'm all alone here and I have no friends. I can't count on you for emotional support. Are you even going to pick me up at the airport?" That's a sample of his emails and phone messages and I think he's still trying to punish me for not talking to him Saturday night.

Thanks for the acknowledgement of his ungratefulness. My friend said it's like "a chapter from the Annals of No Good Deed Goes Unpunished. I am very familiar with this journal!" So wonderful to get validation here and from my friends! Thank you  

Here is something that I have been trying to take onboard.  

I am trying to be more direct AND more kind.  

From the point of view that "directifying" (like that FF word?) the conversations is kinder and more honest.

In this case, your hubby was trying to "indirectly" or in a passive aggressive manner complain.

Instead of saying.  "Honey, I appreciate you looking out for me, but in the future I would like to buy my own luggage", he did what he did.

Or "Thanks for the luggage, I would appreciate it if you would put packages in my inbox from now on"

To which you could say  "There will be no next time, I will be putting my boot up your a$$ the next time you speak to me like that, "

|iiii

Ok, yeah, don't say that, but I have the idea of what kinda country girl you are.  I know you are smiling right now, and also wondering which pair of boots you would like to be wearing, when you make your "deposit".

Seriously though, give him a chance to say things directly.  Redirect back to him.  Let him know how you experienced the comment (your experience can't be wrong) and that you are looking for clarification.

YOU WORRY ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS.

Validate his, but protect yours.  Be unapologetic about protecting your feelings.

FF

Definitely not my Luccheses, rather the horse manure encrusted soles of my regular cowboy boots, Noconas, that I will wear to the rodeo this week. LOL! Thanks for that visual.

Yep. Time for my feelings to get some airplay. His are so almighty important. About time for him to pay attention to mine! And I'm thinking of the Tim McGraw song, Always be Humble and Kind.

Definitely not my Luccheses, rather the horse manure encrusted soles of my regular cowboy boots, Noconas


Somehow this could make a great country song.

So, work with me here,

"Stand by your man, etc etc"  You've got the song in your head now,

"Boot in my man, "

Does it work for you?   :)

FF

I was thinking more about some woeful toon "She took off her Luccheses to kick me cause she likes them better than me"

Thanks, Notwendy and FF. Great laugh! Wonderful way to start the day.  |iiii

let me join in :)

to the tune "there's a tear in my beer and I'm crying for you dear"

... .there's a boot in my rear and I'm whining to you dear

Nice work!  I mean, that is really top notch. 

I really appreciate the laughs, the camaraderie, the wisdom and the understanding!

It just dawned on me that I'm getting the "sad sack" version of silent treatment as punishment for not answering the phone last Saturday--and maybe for buying him luggage--he still hasn't opened the box, four days later.

He's a bit more communicative than my mom was when giving me ST, so it didn't occur to me that's what he was doing. I've tried to validate his emotions ("You seem sad/unhappy/fill in the blank... .) but every time he's responded as if I was criticizing him. So, like some here, I'm doing my own thing and enjoying myself while he can, as my dad used to say, "stew in his own juices."

Can you give us more detail on this.  You say this, he says this, you respond this way,

I think that pwBPD can sometimes get used to our responses, even healthier ones and purposefully twist them.

I think sometimes shaking things up is a good thing. 

I think that showing interest in him and his emotions, without getting specific, might be in order. 

So, walk up to him, maybe give him a squeeze and massage his shoulders some.  Is there stuff on your mind that you would like to talk about, it seems like you are carrying the weight of the world around, "

See how that opens things up, but doesn't suggest an emotion.  If he chooses to engage, great,

If not, a quick peck his head, "I'm here if you want to chat, " and then let him set his crockpot on whatever temp he wants, go enjoy your day.

I would never again bring up the phone call or lack of answering.  If he wants to talk, listen, ask him why that is important to him,

FF

So I've said, "You look unhappy/sad/whatever" and he's typically said, "Oh sorry (but he's not)" or "I'm always wrong" or "Here's another criticism."

Before I had a chance to shake things up and try a different tactic, he broached the subject and told me how hurt he was and that I'd never apologized for "being in the wrong."

I told him that I had said that I was very sorry that he felt unsupported and then told him how I had felt about being pressured to attend this wedding, his suicide threat, etc. And for me, I had, at that time several days ago, felt like I apologized. Of course he didn't see it that way.

Today he told me that "It's all about you, your feelings. You have no interest in my feelings, you don't care about me." (To myself, I thought about all the hours I've spent here, learning, over 15 days total, not to mention the countless hours I lurked without signing in. And all the books I've read, the therapy sessions I've spent talking about how to deal with his emotions. Yeah, right. I don't care about his emotions.)

He continued, "When I'm wrong, I apologize." (And I thought, yeah, his apologies are meaningless because they're not linked to behavioral change.)

I said that I didn't think I had done anything wrong. At the time, I told him I couldn't have that conversation and I sent him an email confirming that. I respect when he says he doesn't want to talk about something. It seems that there's different rules for him and me then. So he's basically saying that I'm not allowed to say "no."  Of course, he said that I'm always trying to "win" and my interpretation of that is that I merely insist upon telling him my experience and feelings.

"So my feelings don't count then," I said. "It's only about your feelings."

It got fairly uncomfortable and for someone who spent his career as an attorney, it was probably really irritating that I was outarguing him, but that wasn't my intention. I wanted him to look at the situation outside of his perspective. He was so sure I was wrong and I was so sure that I had every right to say I was done with the conversation at that moment in time and not answer his calls. He admitted that he'd been drinking and he didn't remember what he had said, though the fact that I forgot where the wedding was to take place somehow was a different story--that meant that I didn't "listen" to him, even though he had only told me once. I got him to admit that people can forget things.

Yuck. It was ugly, but it seems to have planted some seeds of understanding. Not sure if they will germinate or die before they sprout.

Well, things seem a bit more pleasant this morning, but I've been fooled before. I "stuck to my guns" (another phrase from my FOO) and I didn't apologize for not talking with him.

I realize that is a big difference for me. I hate conflict that goes on and on and typically I'd try to smooth things over just to be done with it, meaning that I'd sacrifice my self respect and apologize even if I didn't think I was to blame. Lots of times, the BPD in my life would talk me into thinking I was to blame!

So this is a reference experience to me. If he wants to say I'm selfish or self absorbed (G-d forbid! That kind of talk used to make me crumble and admit to all sorts of things that weren't my fault), then I'll probably agree with him, "Yes, and what of it?"

He did accuse me of being forced in the past to admit fault that I didn't think was mine in the past by both my mother and my ex husband. I readily agreed with him three times and in three different ways before he realized that I was agreeing with him, not arguing!

Oh, and it's been almost six days and he still hasn't opened the box of luggage.  lol

This sort of dragged out sulking is crazy making for me. I also like to have things out- if there is an issue, just discuss it. But I also feel like words- talking- don't work very well. That was a hard thing for me to grasp. But then I found this book. I have mentioned it before on this board- it isn't about BPD, but explains why sometimes talking isn't as effective: How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It by Patricia Love, Steven Stosny


These things don't make sense to me- how a momentary tiff can get dragged out to be something that lasts longer than the original argument. It often came down to something that was interpreted as a major criticism- frustrating to me because I didn't intend it.

But all we can do is apologize for our part in this- the rest of it is up to them. If they choose to drag this out for a week, month, day, it isn't anything we can control. One thing I will bet is that, when he decides it is over, his part is over- erased, his part not to be mentioned it didn't happen.

So, occupy yourself with things you enjoy, your animals, other activities. He may not open the luggage. But you gave it to him to do what he wants with it. He may use it later. For me, that would make me crazy as I don't like to waste money or keep things I won't use. It would be tempting to return it, but maybe after he cools down a bit offer to return them if he doesn't want them.

Ask him directly, but kindly about his plans for the box.  Then drop it.

Ask him same thing about if he wants you to do this kind of thing in the future.


Good grief, I can't believe he is doing this.

FF

I'm like you, Notwendy, I want to resolve things verbally. And it's not like he doesn't have the skills to do it. Jeez, he was an environmental mediator for several years, bringing together water agencies, environmentalists, loggers, homeowners, etc. Those meetings had to be very contentious.

Thankfully after I stood my ground about not apologizing for not answering the phone, the temperature has gone down and things are back to normal.


I'm actually rather enjoying seeing the unopened box. It would be a different thing if it occupied real estate in the house, but since it's cluttering up his studio, I don't care at all. I typically go to Costco about once a month--it's quite a drive, so if it's still there, unopened, by the time I need to go there again, I'll ask his intentions.

And that's a good followup question about asking whether he'd prefer that I didn't buy things for him in the future.

Yep, if it's really not bugging you and there is no practical reason to bring it up, I think you are right to enjoy it and observe.  Learn what you can about him and his traits from this. 

Certainly there is a practical reason to discuss with him prior to next trip.  Focus on saying/asking directly and kindly and let it go after that.

I am really interested in what he says to "do you want to do that in the future".  I'm an acts of service guy, so I love it when people do things for me that make my life easier.  I used to travel a lot, so good luggage is a huge help.

Circling back to previous thing you talked about.

I really think that you should somehow ask your husband or let him know that you liked his behavior on the anniversary and would like more of it.  He may try to back you into saying he is bad or wrong at other times, stictk to your main point.  That day was great!  I would like more of that.

Ask him is there are things you do that he would like to see more of, if he seems to be getting upset, you could ask it in a flirtatious way,

Seriously though, that is a big deal to you and the r/s, he needs to have that behavior given a big thumbs up.

FF

And that's a good followup question about asking whether he'd prefer that I didn't buy things for him in the future.

Or you might decide that, if it upsets you that he doesn't use what you buy him, that you don't want to buy gifts. Maybe he has a different kind of love language. FF is alluding to one idea. My H would rather have that, than a suitcase any day.

Yet, I also get that when they are moody and grumpy- that is the last thing we want to do. Furthermore, we don't want to do it in a co-dependent controlling way, or reinforce the grumpiness. I basically taught my H that if he raged or was angry at me, he would get sex- because I knew that was one way to stop it. But what a reinforcement.

Right now, when he is sulking in his own moods, being romantic or attentive to you is probably not something he can consider in the moment. Since I couldn't stand these moods, I would be more attentive to try to get mine out of them. That was reinforcing as well. Eventually, I felt I had to just let him decide, in his own time, when he was done thinking I had done something wrong to him. He's an adult, he has words, and he can talk to me if he chooses.

Attention/affection/sex- seems better when it wasn't about being in these moods.

I'm Acts of Service too so it totally befuddled me when that gesture went awry, especially since he had asked for help finding luggage. I tend to jump in and try to help when people say they need something. So today, I actually stopped myself (mostly) from trying to help him. He said he wanted some new linens for the bedroom in his studio and later in the week he was going to the mall (an hour and a quarter away from home). I asked him where he was going to look and I suggested he check out Pottery Barn. In the past, I would have gone online, found a variety of products at several stores and showed him the websites. Not today. He's on his own on this one.

I'm afraid if I said how much I liked the way he was being on our anniversary, that he would take it as criticism. Honestly, the guy can feel criticized if I say I like grapefruit juice when he says he likes OJ.

Yes, when he's grumpy, romance is the last thing on my mind. I don't even want to be in the same room with him. I'll spend a lot of time outside rather than interact with him.

Fortunately he's back to being somewhat nice, so that's a lot better than the moodiness.

I would like to re-establish a romantic connection with him, but my interest is so fragile. When he acts like a turd, it takes all my motivation away for quite a while.

This is an important observation. I also tend to jump in and solve dilemmas for people. If we needed new linens, I would know where to get them at the best price and jump in and get them. But jumping in and doing these things for people in a way robs them of the job- and doing it better than them can send them the message that they are not capable or didn't do it right.

I have found that even the slightest suggestion can set my mother off and also my H. I recall suggesting he pay for something with a different credit card once ( because of the points) and he snapped at me " I know which one to use!". If my H wanted luggage, and didn't ask me to get it, I would likely sit back and not do it for him, because then, it would be my ideas not his.

Once my H even went to IKEA to get something and I couldn't imagine him wandering around there, because I usually do that kind of thing. Also - I know exactly where everything in IKEA is. It probably took him a long time to do it, because he hadn't been there before, but it was good to step back as he is capable of doing it.

Your H can buy luggage and sheets. He may not do it as well as you- know the best kinds to buy and where, but he can find luggage. Even if he messes up ,gets a kind that isn't as nice- he can do it. When we step in and do it, they can get the message that we don't think they can do it well enough.

Bad kitty, very bad kitty!    :)

Are you responsible for his feelings?

Are you responsible for clearly and kindly communicating your feelings and desires to your partner?

FF

PS, Sorry Cat, you pitched me a fastball,    

Good point, FF. I don't want to WOE, but on the other hand, having observed him over time, I can guess fairly accurately at what might set him off.

I wonder if he even would remember how nice he was being on our anniversary since that was over three weeks ago. That would have been a really good time to reinforce it--right when it happened! Palm meet forehead.     A good opportunity missed again. One of these years, I'll figure it out... .

I guess my next task, beyond validation, is to reinforce all the good behavior that I see.

It's funny, but SET doesn't at all work with him, or maybe I'm too rote and mechanical in my use of it. He has recited it back to me--"You say, 'That must be really rough to feel that way. I'd be upset too... '"  I wonder if he's reading here too.  *)  

Here is the FF challenge. 

Take him a cool drink, give him hug and peck on forehead.  And tell him straight up that you were thinking about your anniversary and realized you didn't properly thank him.  Say thanks, it was wonderful.  Pause for a minute.  Then talk about some sort of supplement you were going to get for your horse or whatever.  (this assumes he just sits there). 

If he does want to talk, focus on praise, don't go negative with him.  Your message is it was wonderful and you would like more of that.

Perhaps ask him what you can do more of.

FF

OK. I'll do it. I almost tried this last night, but then he started to get irritable and argumentative, so I thought I'd wait for a more neutral moment. BTW, I didn't at all buy into his crappy mood and ignored the comments, so it soon passed.

Hey, just a thought.

Have you ever thought of him as a horse (please go with me a bit on this one, ). 

There are times that you are able to respect your horses feelings and "signs" and let them be.  Sure, you will look around for something legitimate (have the tossed a shoe, or need a sharp rock picked out, or are a bit lame), in those cases, be extra supportive.

But what do you do when the horse doesn't respect your space?  Perhaps you are trailering (in and out) and the horse decides to pay attention to something else?

And, the FF answer is that you get their attention and have a "talk" about who is in charge.

Once they "get it" you don't keep bringing it up or reminding them that they are bad. 

So, where I am hoping you can go with this is when you have a plan to do something, like tell him of your appreciation, and he is grumpy.  Think about horse whispering. 

When he tries to "crowd you" with his negative emotions, establish your space, your boundary.

Is this helpful?  Or just plain weird,

Cat,

My sense is that you are WOE around him and allowing his feelings to rule and you are pushing yours down, putting them in second place.  Not saying it is all the time, but I think there is an imbalance.  Your stuff matters.  You are NOT responsible for his moods.

You seem to be the kind of person that would come out and say to something "Thanks, I enjoyed that"  Yet because hubby is moody,

Am I off base here?

FF

hey FF what is WOE? I tried looking it up but could not find it. I find myself letting my wife's good or bad moods affecting me. I keep too much in. Right when I think I am ready and able to discuss something, her mood good or bad has sway over whether I bring it up.

This has been a good thread BTW even though I have not made any comments.

 

Walking on eggshells

Not doing something you had intended to do, because of the other persons mood or your FEAR of what they will do,

Remember:  Who is responsible for their emotions?  Especially if what you are doing is clearly healthy and clearly kind.

FF

oh yeah... .duh. I guess if I would have thought a little harder on that one

I want to begin a topic on your statement

FF, thanks for parsing the WOE concept and the horse analogy.

In my first marriage, I was afraid of my husband and what he would do. So I definitely WOE based upon fear.

In this marriage, I can see repetitive patterns of crankiness and I do try to avoid triggering that, but I can't say that I don't do what I intend to do, based upon his moods. Lots of avoidance comes into play as I sure don't want to be around him when he's grumpy. Then sometimes it makes him even more irritated knowing that I avoid him. So I guess that is indeed a different variety of WOE.

With horses, I establish myself as the alpha and I don't tolerate bad behavior. If they don't comply, I keep upping the ante until I have their attention and agreement. (I guess I'm also the alpha in this relationship, but I definitely keep that to myself.)   *)

And look, here is the thing.  Women usually are the alpha.  Even in traditional marriages where the woman is "submissive", if she really cares about something, the man usually antes up. 

So, you went to him the other day and were going to say something about really appreciating his treatment of you on your anniversary, he seemed off, you changed your plan.

You are in charge of your emotions, and have way more knowledge of healthy r/s stuff that he does.  So, take charge.

Perhaps,

"Hey, anything on your mind? " (taking charge but being wise likely means staying away from his feelings, for now)

He will likely say no or waive it off

"Good, (big grin) because I would like to put something on your mind"  (perhaps a light touch or hair stroke), "I got to thinking about our anniversary earlier today, and I realized I never properly thanked you for being especially awesome to me on our anniversary.  Can I fix you something special for dinner?"

Pause, he is likely staring at you.

"Well, I'll be fixing (name his favorite dish), gotta go get started."  light romantic touch "maybe we can spend time together after dinner".

And, you pretty much owned that one,

What do you think he would do if you tried something like that?

FF

To return to the horse analogy, when a horse is having a complete meltdown--that isn't the time for me to try to teach them something new. Best I can do is to try to get them to use their thinking mind instead of their reactive mind.

Currently my husband has been in reactive mind with the grumpiness. A friend came by yesterday and while she was here, she had a legal question about one of her best friends who is dying. She was transferred to another hospital without her DNR order. Apparently her insurance won't pay for the cost of the intensive care because it's against her signed wishes and my friend was worried that the hospital might sue her friend's children for the costs. I thought my husband could at least weigh in on the situation, even though it wasn't the type of law he practiced.

Instead he grumbled, "I don't know anything about that." Then much later, "Sorry," as my friend was leaving. (For a guy who prides himself on being so tuned into emotions and who thinks he's so aware of other people, I couldn't believe that he didn't say at the very minimum, "I'm sorry about your friend." Geez--how hard would that have been?)

My friend turned to me and said, "He sure is grumpy." (Her word, not mine.) She went on, "My husband was grumpy too, but when people showed up at our house, he put on a friendly face."

I'm certainly willing to try what you suggest, FF, but I think it will be doomed unless there's some minimal receptivity on my husband's side.

I made the mistake of trying to address his feelings last night. "You seem like you're upset. Do you want to talk about it?" (I think you're right, to steer clear of asking about feelings and instead talk about his thoughts. Which runs counter to lots I read here about addressing feelings. That hasn't worked well with my husband.)

He answered, "I'm sorry I'm not pleasing to you."

When he's like this, I have very little motivation to try to engage him on any level. I'd much rather ignore the whole thing until he can shift gears, which for him, might take some time.

To take this back to horses, I have a young mare who gets really impatient at feeding time and paws the ground. This causes a lot of dust in her stall which filters into the barn and tack room. This habit has been irritating to me and I've tried yelling at her, making a big noise to startle her and feeding her immediately (which has reinforced the habit, but led to less dust). Recently it dawned on me to completely ignore it. I will "forget" to feed her if she does that and continue with my other tasks in the barn. She will hear my other horse eating and me doing things and suddenly the pawing will stop. I wait until the dust settles a while and then I feed her.

So in no way do I want to reinforce my husband's grumpiness. I'm certainly willing to reinforce good behavior. I finally feel free of the enormous burden of resentment I've had, so I do realize that I've missed a lot of good opportunities to reinforce his nice behavior. However, it's too much of a stretch for me emotionally to pretend he's being a nice companion when he's immersed in his grumpy attitude, so I'll wait until I can see at least some neutral behavior on his part before I try this. Make sense?

Yep, you said it yourself later on.  Steer clear of asking or "suggesting" feelings".  Perhaps he is not "upset" but "grumpy" and in his mind, that is a huge deal, makes a big difference to him.

He is a lawyer, and then tend to have "precise" ideas or "arguments".  Think about it, many cases turn on a single word or two, or the order of words.


I think your analogy about letting a horse calm would be for when he is in dysreg.  I'm not hearing that.  I'm hearing he is being pissy.

If you let a horse get out of work or paying attention to you by being pissy, what are you doing?  

If you let a horse get out of work and calm themselves because a bunch of dogs just went after them, that is legit.  In that case you "validate" and care and soothe.

If just pissy, it's time to get to work.  If a horse is pissy with you, do you let it affect your self worth?

Obviously just trying to get you to put on a different "lens" to look at things.

You are the non, you are "in charge" of emotional health.  Get the lunge line, hook up your hubby, and,    



FF

Yeah, that's a bad habit of mine--trying to identify his emotion and getting it wrong. However sometimes I think I get it right and it pisses him off and he just doesn't want to admit it. Some people have a lot of dimensions to their emotions and to parse it correctly makes a big difference. For example, I can be frustrated and if he insists that I'm angry, I feel like he's trying to pin a different emotion to me and it actually does make me angry, when I wasn't angry to begin with. I don't know if his emotions are this detailed. Lots of times I ask what he's feeling and what he says is "bad". Not sure what bad means to him, only that it's not good.



IDK. When he's pissy, I sure don't want to be around him and I have little motivation to get him out of that state--actually I would be motivated to drive him to the airport to get him out of this state.  *)

Lots of times I think the pissyness has nothing to do with me.   In this case, I think it was largely due to getting a new cover for the pool. We had a sales rep show up to give us a quote for a retractable pool cover. (We had a ten year old cover that attached with straps that was disintegrating and was a total pain to put on in the fall and remove in the spring.) So in the process of measuring, the guy asked my husband if it would be OK to remove the old cover. A look of panic crossed my husband's face as they began taking it off.

Because he had completely ignored the pool chemistry all winter, the pool looked like a pond. The water was nearly black and hundreds of frogs and tadpoles were swimming in it. He immediately put in a package of chlorine shock and I began frantically trying to fish out the aquatic life into a bucket of fresh water before the chemicals dispersed throughout the water. The salesman managed to keep a neutral expression on his face.

As Waverider says, they don't seem to manage responsibilities well where there's not an instant payoff and I thought how this has happened time and time again over the years. (Pool maintenance is one of the few responsibilities my husband has on our ranch.) However this time the water was far worse than it has ever been in the past--and to have a pool professional see it. (Inside I was laughing    )

Over the next several days, my husband has managed to tame the pool again, cleaning the filters, scrubbing the bottom and sides of the pool with a brush, adding clarifying chemicals. It's been a lot of hard work for him and he's not used to hard physical work. I've learned not to do the I told you so and I've been nothing but supportive. "Oh, it's looking better, Honey," I said when he had skimmed all the leaves that had blown under the cover, yet the water was still murky like a swamp. (I was having lots of internal laughter.)

So now the pool looks fairly good--I'd actually consider swimming in it at this point if only it were warm enough. And his mood has improved. His moods are so tied to external circumstances and he's so into catastrophizing--"It's a disaster"--when it's merely an inconvenience, or will involve lots of work.

At this point, I feel I can actually be motivated to try to make things better because I feel like it and he's not being pissy and would be receptive.

First of all, |iiii   nice joke!

Second of all, it's not your job to get him in and our of a state.  It's your job to go on about your business.  Your business was having a conversation with him and praising and letting him know how much you appreciated his "extra good" stuff he did for you on your anniversary.

Use the tools you know to get through that, YOU will feel good for speaking your feelings and inviting him to do more of that.

He will feel, however he feels about it.  That is his stuff to deal with.

It is completely healthy in all respects to tell someone that they were extra awesome and that you would like more of it.

If the twists it, that is on him.

Do you see the nuance, no "rescuing" him from his mood, get your stuff done and move along.

FF

I do get that I'm not responsible for his state, but from a pragmatic point of view, I'm more into trying something when I think there's a reasonable chance of it working. When he descends into his grumpy state, he checks out and from my experience, there's not much chance for receptivity.

So this is from my side of things--I don't want to try something I know will get bad feedback. I will do it when it's likely to result in good feelings (for me). It's like preparing a special three course meal for someone who is throwing up. Why bother when you know they can't enjoy it?

Yeah, I see what you are saying, I'm pushing you to make the three course meal when their stomach is "off", but not throwing up.

Throwing up = dysreg

Stomach off = grumpy

Also, define it working.  You get the words out and make sure he hears them, that is working.

It's not up to you to worry about his feelings or how he may or may not twist things.

Your worry hands him control,

FF

Well, I bided my time and waited for a moment where he was open and receptive and then I told him that I never properly thanked him for making our anniversary so special and for how nice he is to me.

GOLD! And I really appreciate the encouragement to do this, FF.

I was never resistant to saying this, but I wanted to be cognizant of what exactly I was reinforcing. In horse training, timing is everything. When you're training a young horse, if you don't immediately reinforce the behavior you want to establish with a release at the exact right moment, you might be reinforcing a behavior you don't want. I've certainly made that mistake, then it becomes harder to "untrain" them later.

I figured that I'd just let the grumpiness pass and when there was a moment of pleasantness and receptivity, that's when I'd say my piece. It wasn't that I was worried about his feelings or how he'd twist things or even giving him control, it was about me. I would feel entirely dishonest and somewhat manipulative to say what I wanted to say when he was being cranky. And I'm not a good enough actress to sell it when I didn't feel it, nor would I want to establish this pattern in myself of ignoring how I feel--been there, did that in my first marriage.

Quite frankly, I don't like the cranky behavior and I start doubting that I even like the person who is manifesting it when he devolves into a grumpy self-centered (fill any derogatory noun in the blank). He's certainly free to carry on like this however long he likes and conversely I'm free to distance myself from being around him when he behaves like this. It's choice on both sides and acceptance on my side of whatever behavior he wants to present, however I don't choose to be around him at these times.

 

|iiii

Nice work!

He sent his cranky behavior to my wife,

There is a BPD style "vulcan mind meld" going on.

Sigh.  I'm going to have a good day, regardless.

FF

OK, yesterday evening was not pleasant, but it did give me a chance to practice using boundaries/limits.

He decided to try and pick a fight over two minor issues. One, I removed his wet laundry from the washer and put it in the laundry basket while I started a load of wash. Later, he saw his laundry in the basket and this irritated him. (I asked him what the difference was whether it sat in the washer or in the laundry basket?)

This had previously been a bone of contention. He would leave wet laundry in the washer for days until it mildewed. I'd get tired of waiting days to use the washer and I'd either take it out or tell him about it. If I did tell him, he'd harrumph and get grouchy. It got to the point where often I'd just take out his laundry, do a load of mine and then return his laundry to the washer. I didn't want to deal with the attitude.

Why didn't I just put his stuff in the dryer? Well, I've learned that neglect is a strategy of his. Why do something when you can neglect it and then someone (me) else will take care of it? I was tired of nearly all household tasks falling on my shoulders.

The other "bad" thing I did was to start the pool heater without telling him. He discovered the pool filter running and asked me about it and I said that I had started the heater because he was planning to swim in the morning. (He wasn't mad that I had heated the pool, just that I hadn't told him and two hours had passed since I started it.) I said I was planning on telling him, but I hadn't gotten around to it. (My casual, easygoing, relaxed, no hurry attitude served me well when I lived in the South. You Southerners know what I'm talking about. Not so good with a Type A retired lawyer spouse.)

So what was in common with these two incidents that precipitated a dysregulation? It was that he didn't feel I was "treating him like a person" because I wasn't "communicating with him."

Now I've been trained by him that even a mention of the laundry is enough to trigger a bad attitude, so why on earth would I want to do that? I brought that up and he said that he's "different" about it now.  lol Yeah right. And he mentioned that there were times when he asked me to remove my laundry from the washer. (Yes, there was yesterday when I put my clothes in at 6:30 a.m. and he wanted to use the washer at 8:30 a.m. Typically he isn't even awake at that time. And I had just finished feeding the animals, doing some work in the garden and was then finally eating breakfast!) It's like one time where he had to wait conflates with dozens of times where he left his wash for days! (Of course I didn't argue with him about this inconvenient fact.)

Finally, I had had enough of the bad attitude over such trivia. I told him he's been being crabby ever since he came back from his nephew's graduation and I was tired of his attitude. (BTW, the box of suitcases remains unopened.)

Ugly, but he heard me and I think he realized that I was speaking the truth. We'll see how today unfolds... .

Box of suitcases still unopened--two weeks and counting... .lol

Now he's stacking stuff on top of the box. Hilarious!

This reminds me of the time I did my wife's laundry for her. I left the basket in the living room, so she could put her clothes away. It sat there for a few weeks, then I moved it to the bedroom, wedged in among all the junk she had piled all over the floor. The basket sat there for three months. Every time I did more laundry, I just added her clean clothes to the top of the pile in the basket.

What do you think she was trying to communicate by not putting her clothes away?

I'm just perplexed. I cannot imagine not showing someone appreciation for a kind gesture, much less totally ignoring it. Is it a passive aggressive F* you?

I sure don't understand BPD-speak. Maybe somehow it felt demeaning that we were doing something for them and that suggested that we thought they were incapable of doing it themselves?

 

Cat,

For your case, I would figure out a standard thing you do, and just keep doing it.

Personally, take them out and put them in laundry basket.  I would not dry them unless it was part of a division of workload that he actually did. 

Seems to me he doesn't keep up his end of the deal.


Am I pretty much on target?

FF

LOL, FF!

Even though we have a big capacity dryer, I think only the little suitcase would fit.

And the big suitcase might possibly fit in the laundry basket.

Oh, um... .you were referring to the load of laundry left in the washer. Nope, I'm not gonna be responsible for sorting which items get dried and which get hung up. He can have his little sh!tfit about me taking out his stuff to do my laundry. I'm not gonna nag him and if he doesn't remember he has left laundry in the washer, so be it. They can continue to mildew in the washer after I'm done with my wash. My give a damn's busted!

I have no idea what she was communicating or even if she was trying to communicate something.

The overall context is that she seemed to have given up on contributing to keeping up the household, although there was no way I could call her on that without triggering a blowup. It wasn't just laundry -- it was pretty much everything else, including self-care. Someone once suggested that the BPD all-or-nothing thinking played a role. She looked at the totality of the mess and was overwhelmed by it, so did nothing at all rather than take even a small step to fix the situation. Could be true. I don't know. I do know she's not reliable, no matter what she says.

Right now, even though we are separated and she's not responsible at all for taking care of the house, she volunteered to mend a ripped skirt of D10's. It's out in plain sight, with the mending kit right next to it. It's been there for a month. And there it sits... .

She looked at the totality of the mess and was overwhelmed by it, so did nothing at all rather than take even a small step to fix the situation

My wife isn't quite here yet but not too far away.

My wife apologizes for the mess or asks me not to judge her when I get home from work. It's not like she has done nothing during the day but close to it. She let her two aquariums go to the point that she thought the fish would be dead so she said she almost dumped them into the toilet (Nice big aquariums) I waited to see how long she would wait.

I walked into the bedroom one day last week and saw a tall laundry basket there and looked inside and it looked like she had dumped trash in it only there were two bank cards in there. I asked what was up with the cards in there. She had just dumped the contents of he purse in there. It sat there for 5 days. I wasn't about to touch it even though it was irritating me. I never let her know how I felt about it.

 

Cat,

I like doing laundry, it's one of the things I "focus on" for the family.

S15 like to do his own (good on him) so he does it his own way and when it is done, he gets it out of the way or when I move it along for him, he is very appreciative.

I can't imagine trying to do that with someone that is being an a$$.     

My suggestion is that you have a laundry basket for him.  Take wet stuff out and let it sit, DO NOT put it back.

His work flow is impeding yours, but you are respecting his right to do it his way. 

Don't engage or get drawn into a "thing" about it.

I 100% support you NOT moving it forward.    Now, if he actually did start cooking or mending fences or, anything.  Well, then dividing up the work might be ok.

Note:  We do a stupid amount of laundry in our house.  Got new washer and dryer under a year ago, the biggest capacity we could get.  It has been heaven!   |iiii

FF

I used to lovingly do all sorts of nice things for my husband while he was still working. I was under the mistaken belief that when he retired he would be more of an equal partner and we would work together as a team. Wrong!

All he wants to do are things that entertain him. As I've mentioned elsewhere his responsibilities include lawn mowing (small lawns), taking garbage to the dump about once a month (if that--yuck!), emptying the recycle bucket (which usually is overflowing) and moving contents to trash area, taking care of swimming pool (looking good now, but was a swamp last week with countless tadpoles--RIP. I tried to save as many as I could after he added pool chemicals, but only the ones that were mostly frog-stage survived), and paying bills.

Everything else I do, other than his personal laundry, but he actually has started to cook dinners a couple of nights a week! Hurray! I used to get so annoyed after working hard outside, doing some household repair, fixing a fence or who knows what. He would have spent all day indoors watching TV or reading and then, when I had returned to the house, grimy, sweaty, dirty, exhausted, he'd ask, "What are we doing tonight?" This was his code phrase for "What are you making for dinner?"

This indirectness so irritated me, I got to the point of saying, "A smoothie" or some simple vegetarian option, since that would be all that I had the energy for, knowing that he would say, "That's not food" and then he'd drive to the pizza place or the Thai restaurant for "some real food."

So, thanks for reading my rant. Things have indeed gotten better. Thank you, FF, for calling him an a$$. I appreciate it. I'm learning to disengage and realize that this is who he is and that he's unlikely to change. It took a number of years to see him for who he is and he's not a bad person, just incredibly wounded and self-absorbed, without the ability to see how he impacts others.

When he first moved here, he went through some old boxes of stuff and found a letter from his first wife (I'm number 4). He had married her when he was in college and the marriage didn't last long. Something she had written him had so wounded him and he had saved that letter. He read part of it to me (the wounding part) and that was--in her opinion, he had no ability to really look within and see himself. (She was completely right IMO.)

So laundry, I'm gonna do mine and if he's in my way, MY GIVE A DAMN'S BUSTED! That song has been so helpful in reminding me to distance myself from his crap. Catchy tune.

I have little tolerance for someone that appears to be a grown man, but functions like a (toddler, teenager, whatever).

I do most of my child rearing, specifically with my boys, for them to be able to lead and handle issues.

My oldest will most likely be a city dweller, enjoy high speed internet, not have a lawn to mow and those kind of things.  That is his personality.  He can do all of those things, repair skidsteer, dig with shovel and if he had to it would go really well.

I often tell him, with a wry grin on my face, that he will fall in love with a girl that wants a horse and rural lifestyle.  He swears it won't happen,   :)

We'll see

Anyway, Cat, keep ranting, I'll keep listening!   |iiii

But I really think if you compare "dealing with horses" to your hubby, you can find a place you can identify with.

Even better if you can get him involved, or perhaps get him involved under the guidance of someone familiar with equine assisted therapy.  I don't begin to understand all of that, but I am in awe of those that are good at it.

Hang in there,

FF

Me too!

I tried to get him interested in the horses and he is from an intellectual distance. He likes Blue, my gelding, who has a birthday one day after his. But then he gets insulted when he drives by the pasture and calls out to Blue and Blue doesn't raise his head from eating grass and return the greeting. ("He doesn't like me anymore."

He's afraid of the goats and sheep--and they're the sweetest beings. I don't have a buck or ram, so there's no worries about aggression. However the Nigerian Dwarf goats are so affectionate, they can easily get one's clothes dirty, unless you know to look out for that. So that's probably another concern. With the cats, there's a few he likes, but then it's "They don't like me anymore." It's really pathetic to reassure one's husband that yes, the cat still likes him but would rather be washing its butt right at the moment. 

 

I miss the goats, in the big scheme of things I would rather have horses than goats and we still have three horses boarded.  1 close by, 1 by my daughters college (natural horsemanship degree), and one at uncles house.  We have defacto given the horse to uncle, but never made it official.

We milked our goats and had bucks around.  Had a breeding business that was pretty successful as well.  Papered goats and all that.

They had the coolest personalities. 

One of my favorites goat sales was to an older lady that wanted a companion for her husband that had suffered a stroke.  He was functional but with diminished capacity.  She spent some time with us and found a great personality match for their family.

Also, and you can put this in the category of "finding the right man for the job", was able to use this to teach life lessons to my daughters.  Oldest in particular.

Well, she had her favorite buck who was very young.  She brought in some bigger does to be bred and I warned her a bit that they might not accept him because he was still young and all that.  She was sure he would be ok, but her judgment was clouded because he was her favorite.  She used to carry him around like baby, everywhere.

Well, in goes the young buck, he goes for it, there is a commotion as the doe kicks him out.  He scampered away.  Daughter was all dejected. 

So, we went to get our "big guy".  Best buck we ever had.  Named him "Maximus".  Well, lets just say we let him in the pen and he took care of business, lickedly split.

My daughter looked at me in horror as I asked if this was a good time to discuss how she could go about picking a good man to be her husband, or if she had any doubts now that maturity in a male mattered.

 

FF

LOL! I guess the biggest lesson I've learned from my current BPD marriage is that romantic love clouds judgment and it's better to find a spouse who shares one's lifestyle and pursuits.

I think about all the guys I friend zoned--how most of them would have been much better partners than the ones I fell madly in love with. I guess you never know... .

 

Yep, it is interesting who and why we fall in love with people.  I still don't totally understand why I was so swept away with my wife, but I was.  My friends noticed, everybody noticed.

I was pretty confident guy.  Had lots of 1st and 2nd dates, few long term r/s.  Was fearless about asking girls out,

I really enjoy getting to know people and almost all my dates ended on great terms, even it we "went out" a couple times and then were casual after that.

Well, the first time I met my wife, I was nervous around her.  It was group of college kids, including my roommate.  Roomie had seen plenty of my game, so he detected a difference, right away.

We were playing cards and just hanging out talking.  I was terrified to call and ask her out.  I would call the apartment and just talk to whoever answered the phone.  Sometimes my wife, sometimes the other girls there.

Well, I confirmed the feeling was mutual when, after a month or so, I called and asked for her by name.  The phone was dropped, the girl on the other end shrieked with joy, "He's calling and asked for her by name, "  The other girls started making a commotion as well.

My wife gets on and tries to act calm.  I asked if she wanted to go study.  She said yes.  Now, 8 kids later,    

Turns out she had nothing to study.  Had a magazine hidden inside her textbook,

FF

I was totally smitten with BPD husband #2, quite a contrast from #1 who just attached himself to me like a barnacle. I was nervous and on my best behavior. I felt like I had fallen into the most incredible romantic love story anyone has ever experienced.

Looking back in the rear view mirror, I couldn't have predicted that he'd turn into Grumpypants McSour. And I'm sure he's equally disappointed with me!

Yeah I got lied to on this one

Me, too - but worse. My spouse thought some of my pursuits were sinful, and his job was to keep me from sinning.

In my first marriage, many the things I really liked to do, such as dance, yoga and playing tennis, were seen by my husband as things that took time away from him and he was jealous. So, to try to keep him happy, I quit doing the things I loved and spent more time with him. Over time, I lost so much of myself trying to please and placate him.

After I divorced, I vowed to never do this again. It's hard, when you're in a marriage, especially when married to someone with a personality disorder, to totally assert your selfhood. There's always compromises and the desire to please your partner. But this time, I've largely managed to avoid that pitfall and I do what I please and have a great time doing it.

That said, it doesn't stop the guilt tripping entirely, but I've learned to live with it and not give it extra juice by feeling guilty when accused of selfishness. When those accusations come up, and they do so much less frequently, I agree. "Yep, I'm selfish. That must be hard for you to be around."  *)

I wish I had realized long ago that responses I didn't want could far more easily be extinguished by not giving them attention. I must have slept through Psychology 101 during the Operant Conditioning lectures.

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