BPDFamily.com

I live in Japan, and my wife is Japanese.

We've been married over 10 years, with two kids.

She is extremely aggressive, starting huge fights over the smallest thing, like folding the towels wrong.

She puts me down, calling me a stupid, useless parasite.  Among many, many other things.  She has been physically violent, too.

She also carries this over to our sons, especially the oldest, who has the misfortune of looking like his father. But not so severe, as I'm here to draw most of the flack.

Last year, my father died.  She allowed me (like, did me a big favor!) to return to the UK to help my Mum sort things out.  The things she said and did during this period, and the shock of losing my father so suddenly, made me realise things weren't right at home.  

Rightly or wrongly, after this I started looking for women online. My wife stopped showing me any affection or love years ago.  Sex, 4 times so far this year.  It's almost September.   I eventually met someone, and had a one night stand with her.  I thought I'd feel bad, but I didn't.  I've never cheated before in my life.

I realised my marriage was over.  I knew my marriage was abusive, but I seemed to have forgotten.  After checking again on line, and reading many articles, I know my wife is either BPD or NPD.  Or both.  Unfortunately, in Japan there is zero chance to ever see my kids again if I leave her.  Otherwise, I'd never go back to that house again.  Only to pick up my stuff when she is out.  Mum will always get custody in Japan, more so if the mum is Japanese, and the Dad is not.  I can't leave my kids alone with that monster.  Without me as a target, the kids would take the lot.

So, until he kids are older, and stronger (I'm thinking high school, which is 9 years away for the younger son), I'm stuck.  Recently, I've started disengaging, which is really helpful for me.  Never tell her anything.  Take the insults as an semi interested observer, not a recipient.  It's making life bearable, at least.  Can I take another 9 years of this?  Maybe.

On top of this, I  will seek enjoyment in my life as much as possible, photography, blogging, supporting my favorite football (soccer) team, and yes, other women. Does that make me a bad person? I can't help but feel cheating is wrong, but the loneliness is crushing, and it's useful to understand that I'm not really such an unattractive idiot man if other women want me.  :)o other guys trapped in this kind of relationship cheat?  Is it a good or bad thing to do?

I'm already planning how I will leave.  My new motto is 'It's just a matter of time.  You will survive'.  I'm looking forward to the day when I can say goodbye forever.

By staying, am I codependent?  Am I an enabler?  Is it really helping my kids?

Anyway, that's how things stand.  Any help or advice would be much appreciated.  But, basically, as I am almost completely isolated, just talking to people will help.

Thanks for reading.

Sounds like my BPD Npd husband

Yes by staying you are enabling the behaviors if during the time together you are not creating boundaries and she isn't showing respect for them or taking responsibility for her behaviors. Mine does not. To both.

books that have helped me recently both by Lindy Bancroft should I stay or should I go, or why does he do that. The second one won't apply to you because it's about abusive men. But if you replace "he" with "she" you may be able to relate.

Cheating. I have a lot of guy friends who help validate me when he's not. Could be considered emotional cheating I suppose but it's definitely not some daily thing. We've also all know each Other for over 15 years. However I do realize I gravitate toward them when he's acting out. To get some kind of positive attention and get my ego cup filled. I know it feels good. I feel like this is an easy thing that happens to a lot of us nons because we just want kindness from someone!

But there are healthier outlets. Abuse recovery classes. Church. Yoga. Meditation. Guy friends. Family if they're supportive. Volunteer work. Work. Hobbies. Journaling. Therapy (which I highly;highly suggest), medication for the depression or anxiety, staying healthy (eating right, sleeping well, exercise)

I'm in and or do all of these weekly!

But I've come to realize because I'm in so many therapies, and just self realization... .You are not helping yourself by cheating. You're also putting a lot of pressure on the person youre with to help heal you in a way which really needs to only come from you. I feel like you know this or you wouldn't be seeking answers here.

It is not helping you because the codependent thing, you're trading one relationship for one that makes you feel better, when feeling better isn't the other persons responsibility. We need to feel good on our own, by ourselves. Validate ourselves, be confident in our own thoughts our own mind without others telling us what and or who we are. I seek so much outside approval, because I never had that kind of emotional support at home as a child. Or now. But who ever said I can't approve of myself?

This comes down to working on yourself... And if you're just jumping from one relationship to the next most likely you're carrying all the same issues into the next. Until we focus on us, and why we allowed the  BPD NPD behavior into our lives. Until we ourselves fix our inner battles, we will continue being attracted to the same types of people.

There is also the issue of later on feeling as if you made the decision to leave because there was someone else. Not because you value yourself.

Enabling, yes. Cheating bad, yes.

Does it make you a bad person, no.

This is a hard battle.
Win it without cheating.

Thanks for the reply. I kinda know cheating isn't really going to help, but it's hard not to. Especially as my physical needs aren't being meet at home. Too be honest, it's only happened once, and it's not aa regular thing.

Setting bounties? Honestly can't imagine my wife respecting them.

Being healthy sounds great, although my wife uses sleep deprivation as, another way to control me.

I'm not scared to leave her, just scared about losing my kids.

Your wife doesn't have to respect them.  All that matters is you respect them enough to protect them.  (note... .yes... .I'm saying that it's not your wife's reaction that matters... .it is yours).    

Sleep deprivation is a boundary issues.  It's physical abuse.  I have numerous sleep disabilities (and others)... .and have successfully fought through this issue a few times.  It's not easy... .but it can be done.

Note:  At the end of the day what is important is that you get sleep.  Not that your wife is happy about it... .or respects that.

I would encourage you to stick around on deciding board for a while.  Sort out where you want to go with your relationship and your role in it.

What do you think?  Want to stick around for a bit and chat... .learn about possibilities?  

FF

Before you start making plans, you really need to fully understand your options.  I don't know anything about Japan's legal system, especially family law, so talk to someone there like a lawyer and clarify what you can do regarding custody should you decide to leave your wife.  A lot of the stereotypes in the USA regarding divorce such as "wife will take the house, the kids and all of your money" are just that: stereotypes.  Yes, they sometimes do play out, but not always.  I would hate to see someone in the USA... .or Japan... .make a decision based on a stereotype.

Good luck.

I haven't had physical contact w my BPD husband in months. It's my decision. The emotional abuse is too much for me to mentally feel trusting and intimate with him. I'm doing fine. I'm not dying because I'm not having sex. It also is not an excuse to cheat. Believe me I could very well hook up If I wanted to. But I know now with therapy and reading it's more important to get my mind and and heart and my health in a good place.

Are you against sleeping medication? Over the counter kinds? Just saying if you take a pill not every night but when she is trying to interfere with your sleep, she doesn't really have control over it, and neither will you. The medicine will take effect and you will sleep. You need sleep to make sound judgments.

Again I highly suggest you start therapy with a T knowledgable of the disorder. And read the books they help. And yes find the info you need on legal help with your kids. A handful of my male friends have full custody of their children. All of what you feel and are going through are understandable and I believe many of us here on this site can relate.

I will stick around, thanks.

I also stopped being intimate with my wife.  Her behavior means I just don't want to be with her in that way anymore. 

I realised today that she's gaslighting me, too.  This morning, she claimed she told me something I am 100% sure she never said.  100% sure.  It's a straight out lie.  For years, my 'terrible memory' has been an established fact.  How long has she been claiming she told me things, and things were said by one of us, and I forgot, that were never said at all?   How many things never happened?  How could I doubt myself so much?

As for sleep, if I fall asleep before her, or anything like that, it's instantly a massive row.  I currently get about 4 hours a night... .

As for custody, Japan is way behind the US.  I've done a lot of research, and Japanese mums always, always get custody.  Sometimes dads get visitation rights, but these are at the discretion of the mum.  There is no enforcement if the mum refuses, which is what normally happens.  When it comes to a non-Japanese dad vs a Japanese Mum, I've never read a story where the dad got any kind of access to his kids.  I leave her, I lose my kids.  It's as simple as that.

 

OK... .legal system sucks.  That's good to know.  It's reality.

The other reality is that she doesn't respect you as a person that has needs.  Is 4 hours of sleep enough for you?  I suspect not.

I'm going to suggest a two pronged approach.

1.  Value yourself by showing her that your value yourself.  Boundaries and self care.
2.  Value her by offering her healthy choices.  Respect her choices.  When she finally switches to healthy choices, don't bring up past.  Reinforce good behavior.

It is important that she not "roll you" or get you to "cave in" on your boundaries.  So, don't start until you understand and are ready to take a stand.

Are there smaller things that are bugging you that you can try out first... .other than sleep?

I'm familiar with sleep and have fought and won that batter several times.  It sucks, but it is winnable.

What boundary do you want to pick first?

What can you do to "reach out" to your wife and show her she is valuable, even when you don't feel like it?

FF

Boundaries, it just seems like a way to have more fights.  Not sure I'm ready for that.

I'll sometimes refuse to be near her when she gets violent, and since I've become more distant recently, she seems less sure of herself, less likely to push me as far as she can.

I'm trying to show her I value her, as that seems like something doable with a positive effect on our fighting.  I'm also not retaliating, especially when she starts saying things that she knows push my button.  That seems to be helping, too.  And basically detaching myself from the situation as much as I can, so I feel she isn't attacking me, so I don't have to take it personally.

Boundaries... .does it really work?  Has anyone had positive results without massive fights?  Or even with?  Was it worth it?  It seems like a big step.

 
Trust me... .it's worth it.

Even more important... .don't go down that road until you are ready to "hold".  If you don't "hold" the boundary, it is way worse than not doing a boundary at all.

Look at your post.  When you refuse to be near her when violent, that is a boundary... .she is less sure of herself.  That is a good reaction... .that shows that she is "listening" to your actions.  

Boundaries are about actions and not words.  Much more important what you do... .than what you say.  

Some important links

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

The above link shows why consistency is important.

https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-When-Take-Control-Your/dp/0310247454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1472057003&sr=8-1&keywords=boundaries

OK... .the boundaries book is not specific to BPD.  This is more to give you the concept.  

Unlikely to work without massive fights

If you are scared of a fight, she has won, go ahead and sign your surrender document.  FOG stands for Fear Obligation and Guilt.  It's up to you to get over your fear.  

It's also up to you to figure out if you will "participate" in a fight.  She can fight all she wants.  If you aren't present... .not likely to be as bad.

Think of a fight as a thunderstorm... .or hurricane (I think you guys have cyclones).  What do you do when one comes through?  :)o you stand outside and shake your fist at it... .explain to the storm how unreasonable it is ?  Nope.

So... don't do that with a pwBPD.  Seek shelter (boundaries) and come out and enjoy the fresh air after the storm has blown through.


More later on this.

FF

Re: more fights when enforcing boundaries

1. Read up on extinction bursts.  Yes, they do happen.  Navigate them in a healthy manner (e.g. disengage where appropriate).  But they do go away.

2. Understand that boundaries are typically tied to behavior.  If you enforce a boundary about being abused (a behavior), you can make the abuse stop.  They are NOT tied to the thought process that drives the behavior, though.  Your wife may still think you're the biggest ####### for enforcing the boundaries you do and there's really nothing you can do to change that.  You have to be okay with that.

3. Maybe a nitpick, but I would not necessarily use the phrase "more fights".  Perhaps "more rants" (see #1), but it takes two to fight.  If you don't want more fights, then don't fight.

Chiming in here.  I'll go with direct and heart felt.
In no particular order or priority, I'd like to mention the following:

If you realize that you have been in a long-term bad relationship, and you only recently realized it, look also at your picker.  If you cannot sort out healthy people to have a relationship with, looking for an affair is not a good idea.  Your picker is not working correctly.

I am aware than in other countries there is a a variety of moral acceptance of affairs, in some places it's almost expected.  Regardless, a woman who is okay with a one night fling, or long affair is doing with you, and to you also.  Thus, one can not only make bad decisions, but get a nice virus to go along with that poor choice.  Added, a woman who hooks up with a married guy could also be a hidden psychopath waiting to be discovered.  Just saying.  Advice I got too late was "don't stick your [male member] in crazy."

It might feel good to be wanted, and get laid again.  But it's a short term gain for a long term pain. 

If possible you might want to move out of her bed.  Can you set up sleeping arrangements in another part of the house? 
I built a bed in the basement and have slept there for about 18 months.  The quality of sleep and life improvement is beyond description.  It also helps with boundaries.  It helped me enforce the idea to my wife that "I am my own person, I need sleep, I'm afraid of waking you and generally afraid of your anger when it hits."  Be unapologetic.  You are making moves to save your life.  I went about a year with no sex, which was down from a dozen or so times a year for the previous years.  It can be done. We now meet more often than that for sex, but, I end up retreating to my sleeping quarters for the night.

Cold water time: I have heard it said that it's time to divorce when seeing your kids isn't worth seeing your wife too.  Ponder that in order to survive, you may have to walk out on the kids too.  I doubt that's the conclusion you want.  I don't endorse it, like it, or accept it. But, you have to survive this.  Some dads get shared custody, but then mom alienates  them anyway and brainwashes the kids to block out dad.  Read ":)ivorce Poison" for pointers on re-establishing your dad status with removed kids. Terrible, horrible, awful things happen to some people.  Is it you? Is it now?
Can you relocate with your wife and kids to another country?
Then divorce her?


This board is good.  Getting in to talk to a therapist, and later a lawyer, is great.

I wish you the best.  Sorry that you find yourself in this situation.

Thanks for all the advice.   I feel like I'm finally coming to my senses and seeing what's really been going on all these years. 

I've started changing my actions, and seems my wife has noticed too, and doesn't like it.  Last night she erupted massively over a really small thing, even by her standards.  Throwing stuff around (her own, not mine interestingly) stomping about, shouting.  I just stayed calm, didn't react.  She tried a known trigger of mine, I felt it on the inside, but showed nothing on the outside.  Then she went to bed, and I slept downstairs (through choice, as I don't feel safe in the same room as her when she's that angry).  She always want's me to sleep in the same room as her, strangely.  More anger in the morning, a little kick (no escalation though, because I always walk away when she does).  Then out the door and off to work early, no breakfast eaten at home (again, my choice to get away from the poisionous atmosphere at home).  I always wonder what she thinks when I don't eat breakfast before I leave.  It's always so I can get away from her more quickly, hopefully leave the house before she wakes so I don't have to see her. 

On the way to work, got a text asking if I have enough cash for my business trip, as she borrowed some and didn't pay it back yet.  I replied that I did, and thanked her for taking the time and effort to check.  I figure that's rewarding positive behavior?

Anyway, upshot is, usually after such a huge emotional explosion, I'd be felly depressed all day.  But today I feel pretty good.  And tonight I have a night off, because I'm spending it in a hotel in another city.  Don't know how I'd survive without regular business trips... .

Anyway, thanks again for all the advice and help.  And just listening.  Hope I can help others in the future... .

Yes the boundaries I have set have worked. My issue is we work together so BPDh has started to get smart and act out when I am unable to exert them. Like when we are delivering something for 4 hours. He will choose to flip out when I'm stuck in a car w Him and can't leave.

This is were I get stuck. We have been 2 hours late on deliveries before because he's having meltdowns and there is nothing I can do. He started to also do that during production of our business another area where I am unable to leave. Bht I've had to sacrifice the money to exert my boundaries. Making it up to him if we have money to pay our bills or not. I have lost money and harmed our business at times when I felt it needed to be done. The boundary was more important than than allowing the abuse to happen.

You are in a difficult position with the custody laws in your country. It's a tough predicament to have two difficult choices- leave and possibly loose custody of your kids, or stay in a difficult marriage. Yet even in these circumstances, you have a choice.

The title of your post "trapped" is true in a sense, but it may be more empowering to you to consider that you are not stuck- and have the choice to leave. Unfortunately, that comes with a circumstance that is, at the moment, worse for you and the kids than the one to stay. Yet, reframing this as " I choose to stay" is more empowering than "I am trapped".

The comment by Sam- " something is wrong with your picker" rings true in a sense, because we tend to choose partners who match us emotionally in some way. If we have poor boundaries, we can end up with someone who also has poor boundaries- and who can cross ours. Two people with poor boundaries may not be able to help each other. However, if one person grows emotionally, and gains better boundaries, the boundaries in the relationship may improve. This doesn't involve changing the other person. We can not do that. However, if we grow emotionally, the dynamics between us and other people can be different- in all relationships.

You can grow in or out of a relationship. A difficult relationship is challenging- but it can challenge us to grow. One does not know how the relationship may proceed- the other person may or may not grow as well. Or it may end. Or it may get better. Your commitment to your own personal growth may lead to possibilities. On the other hand, if you do not make personal changes, the dynamics are likely to stay the same.

It's admirable that you wish to stay for the kids. However, you can give the kids more than this. You can set an example for how to relate to people in an emotionally healthier way, how to have boundaries.

There is a lot of wisdom on this board- lessons and also advice from posters who deal with challenging relationships- and you can learn by spending some time here, reading and studying the lessons, and posting. Making the commitment to yourself to get better boundaries, deal with the emotional outbursts, and most importantly - taking care of yourself ( getting sleep ) etc, can lead to changes, at least for you, and may benefit all of you- whether this relationship lasts or not. In time, you may find that you can help a poster by posting your experience too.

Likely an indication that you are on the right track.


Can you do some "he said she said" here.  What would this have looked like to a fly on the wall?  My hope is we can help you see this coming and have a healthier response.  It appears you did well... .maybe there is something better... .maybe not.



Likely something to think more about.  pwBPD are very sensitive... .my guess is she "feels" this attitude from you and doesn't have the self awareness to understand she plays a role in you having that attitude.


Yes... .but you need to do more.

Next time you see her... ."make a moment" out of it.  

I would do something like this... .change it to make it authentic for you... . 

"Hey... .can come here a minute?  I would like to talk about us... ."  

In my r/s... .I often don't get a direct answer, so I would pull my wife in for a hug.

Hands on shoulders looking in her eyes.

"So... .do you remember the other day when you texted and were asking if I had enough cash for the business trip?"  pause   "I was really touched by that... .it meant a lot to me" pause  "Thank you... ."  give another hug... maybe a peck and then go do something else.  

Let her sit with that for a while.  

When you  make it "authentic" for you... .make sure it stays positive.  :)on't bring up bad stuff... .make it about you and how her actions/attitudes positively affected you.

Also important not to dwell on it.


Self care is critical.

What can you add to your routine at home that helps you take better care of you?

FF

So, just had to listen to a massive rant, 2 hours of how I'm terrible, and everything outs my fault. Again. How long should I listen to that without walking away?

OK... .this answer is not a "rule", but a guideline. 

I would say that 5 minutes is appropriate.  This assumes that the 5 minutes is spent with you try to "understand" and validate any emotions.  If the conversation turns to the pwBPDs emotions... .stick with it.  If the conversation turns to a pwBPDs "opinions" about how horrible you are or their "opinions" on your emotions... .there is NO HEALTHY REASON for you to stick around.

Make the departure about you and let them know you are coming back.

"I'm having a hard time understanding what you are trying to communicate about your feelings.  Your feelings are very important to me and deserve my best.  I'm going to go clear my head and hope to be able to focus better when I come back."

Check back in after 30 minutes.  Be direct and put ball in their court.  "I feel better now.  Would you like to try to express your emotions to me again?  I want to understand you."

If they are weird... .  "I'm going to be working in the kitchen (or wherever), when you feel ready to talk, please let me know."  (quick smooch and go)

FF

Following this story, it shows me how we are all at different places of the spectrum.  Last year my wife would let it blaze - and I'd get lectured, and manipulated, and judged, and put up with too much of her abuse.  If she did that to me right now, I'd be in a divorce lawyer's office the next day.  I think my wife sense it - there's no more mister nice guy left in me. 
Absolutely make your own decision based on you, your position, your wants and needs and your gut.  But, this thread shows me how we can travel along a course of actions. Our tolerance can change over time.  For sure.

Well, that's the weekend negotiated. Finally I can get some peace at work... .

It's been a tough week, with a real roller coaster of emotion.  From relief at knowing what the problem is, and not hiding from it anymore, and excitement that there are actual strategies I can employ to make life more bearable,  to depression due to knowing the slight hope I had that my wife would get better is completely false, and inevitably, we'll part ways eventually.  I obviously married for love, and although there were signs my wife had problems, of course I though I was the one who could save her.  This will never happen, though. 

This weekend was weird, as it had both extremes, us getting on and resembling a happy couple (helped by my attempts at positive reinforcement), and a 2 hour rant, other anger fits, violence, gaslighting.  But I also enjoyed time with my kids, and that's the main point.

There is a lot of information on here, almost too much, and it will take time to read through it and decide a strategy.  But I will do something, and make efforts to improve my life, and the life of my family members, even my wife's. 

Finding this place was a godsend, though, as just being able to opening talk about the situation to people is something I've not had before.

Just out of interest,why don't you leave her?  If it wasn't for my kids, I'd leave me wife.

Thanks for asking.  I want to think on this and give a proper answer.  In the meantime, I have said that if I didn't have kids I'd be gone in 60 seconds.

Many of us feel this way.

Relationships are how we mature.  Most of us in r/s with a pwBPD have areas we need to mature in.  They certainly do as well.

In a way... ."it's our job" to help them mature.  Generally, the healthy way to do that is to have strong boundaries, and let them... .and them alone... .deal with their uncomfortable stuff. 

Accepting blame from them for things we don't have a part in... "short circuits" their maturing process.

Thoughts?

FF

About staying/leaving with or without kids: I don't think it is that simple.

One motivation to work on myself in the marriage was something I read- that if we leave a relationship without working on ourselves, we risk getting into another one with similar problems because we choose people who match us in some way. So while the kids were one motivator for me, this became about me. I knew that something about me was choosing/contributing to a dysfunctional relationship. I then realized that had it been easier to leave, I most likely would have left and then ended up in the same situation with someone else!

This shifted my motivation to work on the situation as it was for my own sake. From this motivation- I was not a victim. I was not stuck. I had some serious work to do.

For some relationships, leaving is the right decision. For others, it is to stay. Each person needs to come to their own decision as these relationships are all different. However, I will propose the idea that, if they were simple to leave- none of us in them would have gotten this far into the relationship. There is something about a person that leads to how they choose someone, and what that is is worth (IMHO) figuring out.

Notwendy,

Very well put.

I think it is important to go back to the title of this thread "trapped in a marriage".  For me, I had similar feelings.  It was important for me to get to the point where I said that "I am choosing to stay"... .

Yes my wife did things to me that would let me claim "victim" status... .  It was important for me to understand that as well, but to move past that.  Part of me getting past resentment (sometimes still a work in progress) is for me to believe and act on the thought that I have chosen to be in my circumstances and that I am responsible for my circumstances. 

As a for instance, the other day I was feeling down about things... .and while there was nothing particularly nasty about what was said when my wife left for work, it wasn't what I had hoped for... .and wasn't particularly uplifting for me.  I said some nice things to her and felt good about that part.

So... .the younger (in terms of time on these boards) FF would have likely posted about what a nasty crank my wife was this morning and likely would have said something to her about her manner which might have resulted in an eruption. 

Instead, I realized this was about me and I took action to get to a better mood.  I decided to run some errands earlier in the day, which allowed me to stop by Sams club before reduced cost meat was all gone.  I snagged a great deal on some pork loin roast was able to pop it in the crock pot with a BBQ recipe I found on internet.

I also stopped by IHOP and had a great breakfast while I read a book I had wanted to read for a while.  Yes... .I lingered there for over an hour enjoying the book and continuously hot coffee. 

By noon... .I was in a great mood. 

I can't tell you (honestly don't remember) exactly what it was my wife did or didn't say that was upsetting.  Likely she just wasn't being pleasant (in my view).  I'm sure there was no outright abusive behavior or words.

Back around to Notwendy's post and point.  Had I left a long time ago, about zero chance I would have done the work or really focused on me.  Is my wife's paranoia/BPDish behavior "my fault". 

No... .not by a long shot. 

I do... however... play a role in it and since I have chosen to be in a r/s with her, I have a responsibility to be kind with "her issues".  Pointing out to her (or anyone really) as she is trying to get out the door to work that they are not being nice... .isn't helpful.

FF

Hi PCFI,

After reading your posts, I feel like you have made up your mind.  The relationship is not worth fighting for and that is ok.  Cheating is never an answer but I think many would understand your need for love/affection and fear of losing your children if you leave.  Just keep in mind, if she were to find out and then leave you, you could still lose your kids.  

Whatever you decide to do should be what you feel is what you need to do to get through this.  Right or wrong... .in situations like these, you are in survival mode sometimes.  Don't be too hard on yourself.  I think most people know when what they are doing is "wrong" but choose to do it anyway.  Just be prepared to face any consquences to the action.     That is not our place to judge or encourage you one way or another.  Only you truely understand what you are going through. 

I'm so sorry to hear that you are going through this, I know that feeling of pulling the target off of one of your kids and putting it on yourself.  It is a horrible place to be. How long till the oldest is 18?  Just thinking that once that child is 18 maybe you will have more access to your kids.

Since you are in the position of wanting to stay so that you don't lose the kids, I think all the suggestions on this board are worth giving a shot.  To try to eliminate the day to day "beatings".  but remember it isn't you, it's her and there is only so much you can control

Bunny

 C<||| bunny4523

Thanks for your reply. Honestly, this all came to a head just over a year ago when my father suddenly died. Things she said and did then, I can never forgive. The last year has been a mess, and I've done stuff I probably wouldn't have under different conditions.

But now I've found this site, I'm starting to make positive changes. I'm doing stuff for fun, and refusing to feel guilty, like I've been trained too. I'm developing boundaries, and being nice to my wife as much as I can when she's behaving well.  After a few days, it's making a difference, although things still get pretty bad.  

My oldest is almost 10,  My youngest 6. I wanna try and hang in there until they are both in highschool at least, so that's another 9 years, max.

But by being stuck here, I've realised I'm part of, the problem, too. Thinking back, seems my ex girlfriend was probably also BPD. So I've got history. Now I've got a chance to sort myself, out a bit.

But yeah, survival mode nicely describes the last year or so.

If you can't forgive them... .is there a chance to leave them in the past?

Can you make a decision to not forgive... .but to given up any further punishment?

FF

I think the focus on your own self is a good start, both for the self growth and also self care. Think of it this way: you have decided you are in this for now, for at least the time till your children are grown. Working on yourself in the relationship could have some possible outcomes. One is that your relationship skills will grow and the relationship will improve. The other, is that your relationship skills will grow, the relationship ends, and you have gained insight and skills to enable you to be in a more stable one later, if you choose to.

I too believe that, had I walked out, without the personal work, I would be susceptible to dysfunction in other relationships. Through my own work and looking at my FOO, I realize my poor boundaries and co-dependent tendencies were issues that led to dysfunction and dysfunctional relationships. I didn't want this.

If you look back at old relationships and see a pattern, it can be insightful.

It's mot really about punishment, but the thing is, my Dad went from OK to dead in a week.  I was in a terrible state, but I still got a load of verbal, mental and physical abuse.  What's the point of being with someone, when the one time you actually need them, you just get abuse?  

The day before he died, even though she knew he was terminal and it was a matter of days.  The day before the funeral, physical abuse.  Also down the phone when I was back in the UK getting his death certificate.  That was one of the most horrible things I had to do in my life, and she was being a b___ down the phone to me.  One year on, really angry that I look sad on the first anniversary of his death.  Shouting at me because I didn't want to watch a film about a kid dying of cancer a few months after dad died... .of cancer.  

Seriously, what's the point in staying with someone that can treat me like this?   And think that it's OK?  How can I get past that?  

Yeah, I realise now this relationship and the one before it were with BPD women.  I realised the last one wasn't for me early enough to get out of the relationship before things got too serious.  So I need to get some help for myself to stop this pattern.  

As for making my situation better, validating is really working.  She seems to really like it.  But sometimes it's hard to be nice to someone who is so mean... .

Also, realising I can do fun stuff that I like, and I don't have to feel guilty.  And that often she's gaslighting me or just plain lying, and not to trust what she says as true.  

And just talking to people about all the incredibly hurtful things she's done to me.  

I also should accept that I'm not trapped, but I chose to stay.  At least for the time being.

It's early days, but at least I feel some hope.  Not something that I've felt for a long time.

 My deepest sympathies for the loss of your Dad.  I hope you can allow yourself time to grieve and process things.

I'll do some thinking on your questions and come back to them later today.

FF

Last night was an interesting night.  

Fell asleep upstairs whilst putting the kids to bed, which she'd told me not to do (or she'd kick me).  Came down to many of my chores already done (to guilt me), and a very angry wife.  It was brewing up for a 2 hour rant, but after she'd made her main points twice, I decided to leave and not be an audience.  SO I said something like "I can see I'm making you angry, so I'm going upstairs for a while", then left.

Cue angry shouting "Get down here now".  I simply said no.  Probably not the best response, but ... .

She storms upstairs, into the kids play room where I am, shouting and ranting.  throws a big box of lego over near me.  I back away, as I'm not gonna allow physical violence.  I always leave the area in that case.

10 or so minutes later, she storms back down stairs, telling me I Have to clean up the lego or she'll break my stuff (PC, phone, tablet etc).    

Initially I refuse, but then I pick it up.  Not sure this was the right thing to do, but there you go.

After that... .nothing.  Nothing happens.  I stay upstairs, read the net, stuff like that, she stays downstairs.  I swapped 2 hours or ranting for 10 minutes of extreme anger then peace.

She goes to bed, I sleep downstairs (through choice).  This morning, get up eat breakfast, my wife wakes up, comes down.  I stand in a place she can't pass me, put my hands on her arms, look at her and apologise for falling asleep and for making her angry.  She seems surprised (normally I'd leave the house without saying a word).  I get ready for work, then as I'm about to leave, I tell I'll be working late tonight (true), say thank you to her for taking our son to the dentist tonight after she has finished work, and apologise for leaving her to do the evening chores alone due to my work (she works full time too).  Say goodbye, gave her a kiss on the lips, went to work.  She looked... .confused, but not unhappy.  Feel like I've made some kind of breakthrough?  Not sure if what I did was right or wrong.  I was shaking with fear when we were upstairs last night, but... .nothing bad happened.  Nothing. Have I been afraid for so long for no reason?

Sorry for the long post.

Fantastic progress!

Obviously your different approach is doing something good and with practise things will become easier.

I would have changed the order you did things slightly:
- after she made her main points twice and you decided to leave, THAT'S where I would have said "I apologise for falling asleep and making you angry". Then give her an opportunity to recover: "I know that you feel very strongly about what I did - I understand - but is there a way we can still have a good night together?" and possibly suggest doing something together. She may calm down - if not then say what you did and leave.

Pre thanking her in the morning for the dentist was great! I'm not sure I'd apologise for not being there to do the chores, but certainly to say "I know I'm not here to do the chores with you - I do really appricaite your efforts - it makes a big difference to me.". Only slightly different - but it really depends on what works.

But great efforts!

I would recommend not picking up the Legos.  When a person throws something in anger and it breaks, let it stay there... .unless of course it is a danger to children.  Then you tell her politely,  "I am going to pick ... .up so the kids don't get hurt."

These subtle shifts in boundaries will come gradually... .we are proud of you.

Good job facing the fear and taking a different course of action... .|iiii

I recommend you stay away from right and wrong and try to think about " good, better, best"

You have changed the rules on her... .and she is trying to figure it out... .

The important thing... .your are the one taking action and she is the one scratching her head going... .What the heck?

More later... .really proud of you!

FF

Great start.

A change in your behavior is a step toward change. Don't be discouraged if there are errors. If we already knew how to do this kind of thing- we'd be doing it all along. Change is in steps. Sometimes forward, sometimes backwards but the general trend can be forward. Also, every "mistake" is a learning experience, something we can learn from along the way.

I am sorry for the loss of your father. I can relate to your experience in a way. My father passed away some time ago and it was a very difficult experience for me. I miss him and I know you miss your father. These are times we expect emotional support from our families- and to my surprise- the most disordered people in my family- my BPD mother and her FOO were shockingly cruel to me at the time as well. Forgiving them has also been a challenge.

You may see your wife in a similar way I see this part of the family. They are not bad people in the truly amoral sense, and they are actually good people in many ways. They would give charity and do nice things for someone in need. So how could they do this?

One of the mysteries of BPD is that it is a disorder that affects the most intimate of relationships. People with BPD have poor boundaries and difficulty managing their bad feelings. They also can't tell what is them and what is us. They pick up on our bad feelings- our distress can cause them distress. Then, they can feel like victims- like we are doing something to them. It took me a while before I could listen to my mother's perspective of that time, and her report was all about her, what I was doing to her, what everyone was doing to her. She can't handle her own feelings- how could she handle anyone else's?

I don't think it is right- what your wife did at the time, but it may have been all she knew to do at the time. Regardless of if you can forgive her or not, it may help to see this as not having anything to do with you, but about her, and her inability to tolerate the emotions at the time. Since raging is a "tool" that has worked for her in the past, it may be the one she uses the most. Not reinforcing them may lead to her trying different behaviors. Know that just like it is for you, learning new behaviors is new to her. It can be trial and error. But you changing your response to her angry outbursts is a start.

I'll write more later... .but these (for me) are the two big focus points.

These are not "tools" but they are attitudes.  A way of seeing and relating to the world.

Tools are great!  Yes, I want you to learn them... .and many of the "word tracks" that go along with them.  They will do in a pinch or in repetitive situations... .when you are worn out and need to do something healthy... .but are having trouble thinking.

"Attitudes" are going to help you fill in the blanks.  pwBPD have a way of finding a new angle... .presenting something you have never seen before. 

"I'm not going to be an audience... " is a great attitude to have towards dysfunctional behavior!

"I'm not going to allow physical violence... ." shows respect for yourself and those around you.

 |iiii

Do you see the difference between an "attitude" and a "tool"?  Can you think back to what you were thinking when you made these decisions?  Anything else you can tell us, after a period of reflection?

FF

As an aside, if I put myself in the situation described above, I would be pretty much done with the relationship.  I wouldn't react with anything other than quite resolve.  Resolved to end it. I can manage her rages, and can be good. But, I just feel cornered now.
Am I bad?
I put up with so much over 19 years of marriage I just feel my tank is empty. I have no more desire to go through how OP is getting treated.  Do I need to change me, even more?
There is such good coaching here on how to be better and improve things. 

Samwize,

I think my best answer is that there is not a right or wrong way to choose what to do about a relationship. How people choose their partners is very individual. I think it is agreed on that one aspect of how we choose is that we choose partners who "fit" us in some way- emotionally, or our FOO, and this is something we may not even be aware of. It is part of the chemistry between people.

I think we've all had the experience of seeing a couple and wondering "what does he/she see in her/him?" This goes beyond cultural standards of beauty. Even some very attractive people may not feel attractive to us, and we don't always know why that is.

Likewise, I think we have all read scenarios on this board and thought "no way would I tolerate that". Yet other people seem to tolerate it. We all have different boundaries, values and ideas about relationships.

So, to stay or leave is complicated. Beyond the relationship itself, people consider things like children, religion, finances, age, length of marriage and this influences what they may tolerate.

So why should you try to change? The only reason I can think of that makes sense is if you want to for you. You don't change for the other person, or the relationship. For me personally it was realizing that my own FOO situation set the stage for some dysfunction in terms of relationships for me. That was my part. I also realized that this influenced my "attractive- attraction" part with other people. I was attracted to people who matched me in some way and they were attracted to me. This meant that some dysfunction was likely to play out with anyone I had chemistry with. Working on me could have results not only in a romantic relationship, but all relationships- with my parents, siblings, children. It might help regardless of any outcome of the relationship because it would be helping myself. A BPD partner presents the opportunity for this growth- the lessons and skills are not for the other person only. Even if one decides the right decision is to end the relationship, relationship skills are good to have.

I'm going to say yes... .hear me out a bit.

If your tank is empty... .who is in charge of filling up the tank?  Who allowed stuff to be taken out of the tank? 

If you don't want to participate in a relationship dynamic like the OP... .then don't.  Can you do that in your current r/s?  (for clarity... .not asking if your SO will "like" that dynamic being taken away).  I'm asking if you can make a decision for yourself about what you will do and tolerate in a r/s.

Big picture:  We (as individuals) mature in the context of a relationship.  Do you have more maturing to do in the r/s that you are in?

FF

 C<||| formflier

The audience thing is something I read on here, and one of the things I hate most about living with my BPDw is the 2 or 3 hour rages.  SO I knew I had to change my behavior.  Scary as hell, but I did it.  Maybe it will be easier next time.

The physical violence thing is actually something I've done for a long time.  Generally, physical violence causes me to leave the area.  She knows this, and generally doesn't push it. A little kick or push, I make to start leaving, violence stops.  

  You need to change for you.  One thing that's really made a difference for me is doing things I want to do and not feeling guilty.  Putting myself first.  Getting your own space.  Not being afraid all the time.  If you wanna stay with her (and I don't really, but I need to look after my kids), then look after yourself.  Than work on setting boundaries for her.  You don't have to tolerate the bad behavior. 

But if you don't have a good reason to stay, no one is forcing you too.  You should decide if there is a reason to stay and keep trying, and it's time to leave.   Why are you still with her, if you don't mind me asking?

So, last night everything was... .normal.  As in how I imagine a normal marriage to be.  No fighting, histrionics, we both got involved in disciplining our eldest son for his lack of responsibility regarding his homework and school equipment, she almost started going to far but didn't.  She stayed just about in control all night.  She's very high functioning, in fact. 

Is this connected to what happened the night before?  I doubt it.  She's like this sometimes.  It's one of the hardest things about living with a BPD.  One day they are raging and violent for hours, next day they are nice as pie.  If they were always bad, you could deal with it.  But the good times give you hope, false hope, which is the worst.  Cos it's never gonna be like that full time, sadly. But it keeps you hooked, seeing how it could be... .

Main things I'm learning is that I have to take responsibility for my own happiness, not wait for my BPD wife or anyone else to make me happy. 

If I'm happy, I'm a better person, easier to be around, nicer (ie validating) to my BPDw when she's being good.  Which is good for us both.

Also, when my wife rages, says mean stuff, she's not attacking me personally.  It could be anyone.  Just happens I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Detaching from it and letting the insults bounce off you is a powerful weapon.  It's really helped me.  She tries to push my buttons, and even if she hits, I try to flinch on the inside, but not the outside.  She even attacks my dead father to get a reaction... .

So, I'm staying, for a few years at least.  Cos otherwise I'd lose my kids, and although my oldest son (9) seems to understand something is wrong, there is no way he can cope with her by himself.  And no way I'd get any visitation in this country. So I need to stay and help them, look after them, shield them as much as I can, and  give them a more normal role model. 

When (if) I eventually leave, it's not like it will be easy.  I'll be alone, after years of being with other people, I'll have to be careful about depression, which I suffered from as a young adult, stuff like that.  Or I might just really love it... .

I know my BPDw is most scared of being abandoned.  She threatens divorce, but she'll never go through with it.  When I say "OK then", she's "but you'll never see your kids and I'll take all your money".  She'll never let go of me.  If I leave, I'll have to leave first and tell her later, when I'm safely out.  Once I was leaving, and she called the cops and threatened to accuse me of beating her.  So I'll have to be careful, and gather evidence as to what's really going on to protect myself. 

So, that's what I've learned and decided so far.  Thanks for the advice everyone.  Sorry for another long post.

So... .you have already been using the rules and strategies... .boundaries really.

And, you know that your wife generally respects them.

So... .I challenge you to find hope in this.  Is your boundary in the right place... .is "a little kick or push" the right place to have a boundary.

Again... .big  |iiii    you are on the right track.

FF

Don't worry or apologize for long posts.  They let you "get it all out" and show us your thinking and feelings.

Can you focus a bit on the quote above?  Can you see how that can be seen as painting yourself as a victim.  I was just walking along and "bam!" got raged on... .

Honestly... .I used to have some of those thoughts as well.

What might be a better "attitude" to have?

FF

 C<||| formflier

Ah, I see what you are saying.  But I mainly just meant that if she'd met someone else, and married them, them the situation would probably be the same (if they were a codependent too, I guess).  It's difficult to articulate, but what I mean is it's not me she's attacking, personally, because of who I am.  She'd do it to someone else, too, if they enabled her to.  Is that clearer?

My story is no different from what many have gone through. My point is however that this rs will change your personality. You will have to lie and hide to avoid the worst outburts. You were never a cheater and now you cheated. Is that who you want to be? A cheater a liar and a deceiver? I couldn't handle those changes anymore. The price was too high. But the desicion is yours. I leave you with a story that summarizes what I already said.


A Fable About Hanging On and Hanging On... .