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Dear J*****,

This subject is a sensitive one, with a lot that needs to be said, so this letter will likely be long. I want to remind you that it is not my intent to upset you in any way, should that happen. Some things may be hard to read, I don’t know, but it’s how I feel, and I can only hope you will listen. With any luck, things will get better as a result of this letter.

I have been very patient with you on the subject of my beginning to have S**** overnights, and getting a mediation contract for what I think is fair. I had hoped that it would be the most peaceful way to help heal our entire predicament. S**** is now two years old, and for a variety of reasons, I can no longer walk on glass around you. It’s no way to live one’s life, tiptoeing around. I will be writing with that old wisdom in mind, “gentle but firm”. I do thank you for finally seeing that it’s time S**** began staying nights with me.

Trust… You say you’d like to rebuild trust, to fix what was broken. There are several subjects that need close looking at for me to trust you, but this subject is the most important. Here’s what it comes down to… What I need in order to begin trusting you, first and foremost, is an official mediation contract about our girls, one that represents equal custody and residency (including a progression schedule for S****’s overnights with me). And yes, one that holds up in a divorce court should we end up getting divorced. Anything less than this action in full will prevent trust from being reestablished, and we will certainly end up in court. To avoid any misunderstanding with words, I also mean equal amounts of time in a week with the children.

You may receive this as an ultimatum, but Joe (Marriage counselor) was correct in telling you that I simply have no other recourse. Were our current mediation of the children already fair, there would be no ultimatum. Divorce court is the only legal process available to me (if mediation fails) in securing my rights as a father. This technicality of the system is not my fault.

The truth may hurt, but it is what it is. I cannot be in love with (or remain married to) someone who tries to limit and control when I have our children, and who self-proclaims to be the sole authority over them, including what is good for them and deciding on their own when they are ready for a transition. Even how you worded things in your email about S**** is telling of your inner position on the matter… “I would like very much to give you the opportunity to try it out and have our daughter S**** for the night.” If you do not understand what I mean here, I hope you will let your counselor read this letter, and maybe that person can help you understand. Or, simply turn the tide in your thoughts, you may see it then.

Recently you began mentioning some things about yourself, and of course I am very glad you are beginning to talk about it. I’m genuinely grateful you have shared a little with me of what you have learned about yourself. These things are not my business I know, but they directly impact my life as a father and husband. My concern for now is about the girls however. Another sentence in your letter illustrates how I think you have exerted control over the children: “…and in the hesitation I have felt in ok-ing this transition is both because I am concerned for her and her readiness, but also because I so absolutely do not want this to continue down what I perceive to be the avenue of continued separation and/or divorce”. The later is what people refer to as using the kids against the spouse in a conflict with the intent of causing emotional hurt and exerting control. It comes across as manipulation as well. When angry at me, you have actually threatened more than once to not show up for a swap.

Any good parent is concerned for their child’s readiness for a transition, no matter the age, but excluding the other parent’s thoughts and feelings is another subject all together. You have never once asked me what I think or feel about any of this. Each and every time I have tried to express a thought or feeling about it, you shut me down, interrupt, and basically tell me how I am wrong, when I just see someone who is not even willing to listen, and still grapples with emotional reactions. There is a time and a place in Joe’s office to discuss our concerns about each other, about each other's parenting, but none of these things should serve to uphold an unequal mediation in both of us seeing our children fairly during this hard time.

Currently, you have P**** 108/168 hours a week, and S**** 136/168 hours a week. I have P***** 60/168 hours a week, and S**** 32/168 hours a week. You have P***** 64.29% of the time, and I have her 35.71%. You have S**** 80.95% of the time, I have her 19.05% of the time. This is no where near equal.

About your request to end my midweek time with the girls, I am open to this if, and only if, a completely equal schedule in time has replaced it for the above mentioned reasons. I will in no way agree to back pedal on how much time I have with the kids. An equally divided schedule could negate a midweek visit. Also, we should probably check in with a professional to see what is best for the children, for their ages as well. It is always hard on the kids, and myself, when too many days have passed without seeing each other. I do not believe or feel you are aware of this. We can disagree all we want, but either way, everything leads to the necessitation of fairness, of equality.

About the location of our “swaps”, I have spoken to several professionals, including Jane Doe, and have read a great deal from online sources, that meeting in a public/neutral place is far far better for the children when there is tension between the parents. I encourage you to read online, or talk with a professional about this subject, because it makes a lot of sense. It has always made sense to me for our predicament to meet in public at a neutral location. As much as you have disliked this, I know I have done the right thing for our girls by insisting upon it, as there is considerable tension between us. I feel like you have blamed me for this tension for two years, in spite of your continued anger and volatility. I own my half of the tension, and I believe it’s time you own your half. I agree that in some ways it would be easier to meet at our homes due to the weather and number of times in and out of carseats, but in my opinion those are small matters compared to what the underlying tension between us can do to our children, and the anxiety/fear I have lived with concerning your anger and volatility. I assure you however, that when there is no tension between us, when there is once again a feeling of trust, easiness, and peace between us, I will agree to meet at our homes. I have not minded that once in a while we have met at our homes for occasional logistics, but think that our public/neutral location is very important for the children and myself until things progress in a genuine way.

I realize this may be a scary move for you, an equal mediation, legally bound, but if you were in my shoes, I think you would better understand. I must do what I need to do. I would never try to enforce an unfair, unbalanced visitation schedule on you. This is about everything, being a loving, dedicated, involved father, trying to protect my rights with my children, but it’s also about integrity. It’s about decisions of the heart in this short lifetime. If you find that you can agree to this action, you will find that I will feel much much better about moving closer with you in matters of trust and respect. It will show me you have integrity in the subject at hand. It’s just impossible to move forward, for me, in the absence of this mediation action. As Joe put forth from the very beginning, he wanted mediation over money and the children completed so we could focus on our relations. This is the cleanest way to approach it, in my opinion. It’s your call. Will I run to a divorce court knowing I got what I wanted? No. I am dedicated to this process of healing, and I am open to things working out for us. It’s still a long row to hoe, with very deep wounds, but miracles do happen in this tough world. If you do agree to this new mediation, it’s true that it will not guarantee our marriage will survive, but the lack of this action will guarantee its end. I feel cornered J****, if you can imagine. If you feel cornered too, isn’t it sad we both might? The whole thing is heartbreaking and not without risk, so I am asking you to please consider everything I’m saying here, because the ball is in your court.

To be clear, my intentions are, if you agree to this action, that we write it together, team work, with Joe’s assistance. We can hire a child psychologist if we need to, as S***** will need to be on a progression schedule, but my point is that we work it up as co-parents, learning to trust each other at the very heart of it. I believe that Joe will be quite happy if we can get this accomplished :)

There’s a lot to absorb here, so of course take your time, and I’ll see you Wednesday morning in Joe’s office.

F*****

Modify message

 

Butterfly12,

Please read my response a couple times before responding or reacting.

I started this response before I scanned your old posts.

My first thought was this is an incredibly good email... he seems centered, reasonable and wanting to be involved in his kids lives.  I'm thinking... .|iiii     Who can argue with fairness... .equality... .etc etc.

That nagging part of me says FF... .she is shocked for a reason... .she is shocked at a centered email for a reason.  So... .I go look at old posts you made... .and now I remember the story.

DV.  Avoidance of responsibility.   Not good.

Now... .after reading this... I want to reach through the computer and give you a huge hug.   

Now... on to reality.  Please go to the meeting.   Please show up with questions... .be prepared to listen and understand.

What you hear may very likely be infuriating... .please try to be rested so you can understand what he is saying... .and not react to it.

He will likely do most of the talking.  That is fine.

With pwBPD... .remember... .less is more.

He wants something from you... that's great... .give him respect... understanding.  Active listening... .keep going over what he wants until he agrees that you have it correct.  You may have to be very patient with him... .

Then it will be your turn.

I suggest having your "want" be one to two sentences long.  Short and to the point.

He owns the DV first... .and you agree to everything.

The key will be for you to clearly define what "owning" it means.  This needs to be crystal clear... .but short and to the point.

I would not threaten anything if he doesn't own it.  Just show him that the pathway to what he wants is to walk the pathway of redemption for DV.

He has a choice to walk that path... .or a choice to stray from it. 

Make it clear that you will be watching his actions

 

I hope this helps... .  No mother should ever been in your position.  But... .you are where you are.  And it is likely that you have some hard stances to take.   Please let us support you in that.

FF

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond and read and understand.

I have truly been at a loss. I really really appreciate your insight and your advice. Thank you.

So... confirm the meeting is tomorrow... .right?

FF

It is. ANXIETY.

And home today with sick kids. Trying to think up how to word my "questions."

Write it out here... we'll help.

Note:  It's safe to "just say it" here... .we can help you translate it into something you can take to the meeting.

Tell me about the anxiety... .are you worried he will reject your offer... .or that he will accept it?

Who is Joe?  Is he the counselor... .or the mediator?  Is the meeting at Joe's office?  Basically... .tell me about the situation you are going to tomorrow to have the meeting.

FF

 

Also... .tell me about you and how you perform in important meetings.  High stakes stuff. 

Is this something you have had much experience with?

FF

the "meeting" is really our biweekly marriage counseling session. In my husband's mind, it is obviously something more then that. Generally speaking, for the past couple months I have been really calm in these sessions. About two months ago I lost it. I got so angry after he repeatedly verbally sucker punched me and I told him where to stick it. Most of the time I am able to be calm, clear, and collected. However, he calls me volatile, angry, and abusive- solely because of the few times I have lost my cool and actually gotten angry.

Joe is our marriage counselor. He is wonderful.

The things I feel I need to communicate is that I am completely unwilling to trust him until he exhibits honesty. Also, the day he was arrested he raged and screamed at me "I'm going to take these children away from you. You are crazy. You are an unfit mother." All while trashing the house and screaming. He now denies he said any of those things. That day I sat in shock, holding my babies. I don't really understand how to communicate I need to have him own and accept he did these things (and it wasn't me) and I can not-as a mother- let down my inhibitions and hand over my babies, with equal ground and trust. It's the kind of responsibility I begged for when our first child was born. And he refused.

 

Got it... .you have several wants and things here... .

Can you boil it down to "just" the DV (for now).  Think of it as a step... .but a huge step for him.

Have you responded to the email at all?  If not... please don't until we look it over here. 

Remember... .less is more.  No controversy in writing (from you)... .no promises... .

What you want to do is validate and express that you both are looking for solutions.

FF

 

And great job expressing all of your stuff here... .

This is the place you let it "all hang out"... .vent... .all that. 

FF

I haven't responded at all to that email or any other texts, emails, etc since. And like most pwBPD, he tries to engage me frequently.

Ok, so, basically I need to just figure out how to ask him to own the DV.

How often do you respond to emails and texts?  Ever...

My gut tells me that something short and hopeful is appropriate... .however... if it would be odd for him to get a reply email from you.  Now is probably not the time to change that up.

In the past how often do you agree to things he asks? 

How often have you guys compromised on things so you both get to "win win".  He gets what he wants... .you get what you want.

Tell me more about his arrest and sentencing.  Did he have to complete any type of "program" for DV or anger management.

Just to be clear... .there was an arrest, trial, he was found guilty, he served some kind of sentence.  Any part of that I got wrong?

Do you have pictures of your wounds/injuries?

I realize this may be hard to talk about... .but critically important that you be prepared.

Just so you know... .my goal is to get you to a place where minimal time will be spent on his demands... .because your answer is "I accept that part of the compromise... " 

And the majority of the time is spent with him... .understanding what you need.

Yes... .there will be some early time where you go over the email and make sure you have it right... .

On the off chance that he accepts... .it's a win. 

Be prepared for him to bob and weave and try to get what he wants (his part of compromise) and leave you with nada or to knock part of what you want down.

FF

I do respond, if I need to, to his emails and texts. It used to be that I always did, but my responses were too quick, often angry and frustrated. I have learned to turn off my immediate lashing out, which has been very helpful. He wanted that reaction out of me. It fed his belief that he was correct I was the abusive one, even if his original words were a sucker punch.

I have frequently given him what he wants over the past ten years. Pretty much always. He is accustomed to being right and not being challenged for his opinions. If you question, you aren't agreeing. Therefore are unaccepting of him as a whole.  It is rare that we compromise. He usually has to have the upper hand. Which is contrary to what the email says- the idea that it is me that is that way. It is simply untrue.

He was arrested. Held. Bailed out. Taken to court and sentenced. Had a sentence for a year of no contact with me. The sentence ended over a year ago. He was not sentenced to any anger management. Unfortunately.  I do not have photos of my injuries, but my mother, aunt, doctor and best friend saw them.

So, basically what you are saying I make clear that I accept, and then lay out the ground rules that for me to completely accept he has to accept my demands?

Yes... .win win.

And listen... .this may be the hard part for you.  You need to also say you are fine with not agreeing... .that you are willing to continue working with where he is at (not accepting responsibility) and trying to repair the marriage.

Do no threaten or explain the consequences of him not agreeing.  He can figure this out. 

The reason you want him to go first and to confirm his desires is that you want to make sure there is "nothing else" he wants/needs.

Very likely that he will start adding demands when he sees what you want.  Don't go down that street.  No bar moving.

He sets the bar... .and you set the bar.  Each of you is then responsible for jumping over what has been set for you to "show" that you value the marriage, the r/s and are interested in repair.

The box that he has built for himself by committing DV... .is the box that you need to enforce he stays in... .

He wants out of that box without doing the work to get himself out. 

This is not the place for forgiveness or acting as if it didn't happen. 

Can you call a DV hotline or find out about DV programs that he could complete. 

FF

I'm thinking that a quick reply thanking him for his thoughtful, solution focused email and that you are looking forward to identifying solutions in the meeting with Joe tomorrow.

Short... .thankful... .mention solutions a few times.  (No agreement or disagreement from you about anything in there)

How do you think he would receive such an email from you?


FF

Hi Butterfly,

Formflier contacted me and asked me to add to the conversation about your husband and his email. I was married for almost 20 years to a man who assaulted me more times than I'd like to remember. I did not involve the authorities, which would have been preferable, but one day I vowed to myself that I would end the marriage if ever assaulted again. And I did. Some years later I read in the newspaper that he attacked his second wife. He fled the state before his arraignment and currently has an outstanding warrant for his arrest, so it's unlikely I'll ever see him again, thankfully.

Anyway, I read the email your husband wrote with the knowledge that domestic violence had occurred in your relationship and my first thought was that it was a very controlling message, well-written and disguised through polite language. I get the sense that your husband is quite intelligent and is also a master manipulator.

Then I read through all your posts since you've joined BPD family. There are some similarities to my first husband: substance abuse, financial irresponsibility and unwillingness to accept responsibility.

I'm just going to free associate some impressions: I would attempt to have conversations with my husband to try to work out issues that were troubling to me. He, like your husband, was incensed if I "interrupted" him. He would start these long monologues where there was no way to get a word in edgewise. Because I was willing to acknowledge my own issues and failings, I would end up apologizing for all my flaws. After one of these "conversations" I would walk away amazed that none of what I wanted to bring up was discussed and it all was "my fault" for whatever problems we were having.

My husband was amazingly charismatic and could easily fool people through his wit and intelligence. Insightful people could see through him, particularly if they knew him over time. He was very creative and imaginative, but this did not translate much to physical reality. He expected to be rewarded for his ideas rather than having to do the actual work to bring them to manifestation. He, like your husband, quoted Carlos Casteneda. He had a sense that he was better than other people: more intelligent, more spiritual, more perceptive.

I think because of that inflated sense of self, he was disturbed if he was questioned about anything he said, did or thought, because that meant that someone believed there was a flaw somewhere in his thinking.

I don't know if I would agree to your husband's demands in that email. I really don't like the tone of that letter and if he's anything like my ex-husband, you give them an inch and they want to take a mile.

I'm so sorry you're in this situation with him.    I read in your writings that you love the man you married and really miss him.

Hi butterfly,

I apologize if this has already been covered,  I may have missed it.

What is your sense of what is best for your children?  What kind of relationship do you hope for them to have with their father?

':)ucks

Butterfly,

Prepare for the monologue... .don't fight it.  Keep your follow up questions short and to the point.  You want to understand his point... .(not agree or disagree).

Hopefully MC can keep him on point... .only dealing with his ideas/requests in the email.  That's what he sent you... .that is what you are prepared to discuss.

To be clear... .you agreement to everything is contingent on him owning DV and taking verifiable steps to address this.

We still need to define and understand what "owning" DV is.

The status quo doesn't change 1 inch in his favor until he "owns" DV.  

This needs to be said to him in an positive... .agreeable way.  So... you do get this and I get this is much preferable to I won't do this if you don't do this.

See how one is positive and one is negative.

Positivism rules the day for you.  Let him be the one to go negative.  

Very likely he will. Don't follow.

Concept:  It needs to be safe to say no.  Especially around a person with DV history... .or abusive and threatening behavior.

It is critical that if he declines to own this that you don't attack him... .it needs to be safe for him to say no.  Just like it needs to be safe for you to say no to his requests... demands.

You have found a way to say yes... .focus on that.  

I realize that making it safe for him to say no is probably not what you want... .wouldn't be for me either.  You are demonstrating good, healthy behavior.

Let him demonstrate bad.

FF

I'm so confused.

Cat,

What you said is so familiar. It scares me so much that you seem to know exactly what i'm talking about. That makes me feel so lost and hopeless.

Butterfly,

I'm going to re-imagine my former marriage and what strategies I could have employed with the skills and understanding I have since learned about BPD from this site and through counseling. Hopefully some of this might be of use to you.

This may come out randomly, but bear with me.

The first thought I had is that my husband, whether or not he purposefully intended to, systematically set about to destroy my sense of self-esteem. He was very critical about everything about me, whether it was something I said, my weight (I'm 5'7 and I weigh 118 pounds--and he thought I was too fat when I weighed 125), my intelligence, my cooking, you name it.

He did a lot of reading of "spiritual books" and thought of himself as a guru-type, although he wouldn't have worded it that way. He had a lot of insecure people who looked up to him for advice, but after a while, realized that he didn't have much to offer.

He was very articulate and quick with words and could easily talk over me.

He showed a very sensitive side to me at times. He was really wounded by events and people in childhood and this is an area where we bonded.


OK, knowing what I know now, what would I have done differently:

A standard practice for abusers is to separate you from friends and family and people who could support you. I would cultivate my friendships and get support from family. I would not keep secrets like I did about his behavior and I would fully share that with others.

It's hard to say that I wouldn't let him undermine my sense of self-worth, but having a strong sense of self is important in being in relationship with someone with a personality disorder. I would talk with domestic violence advocates and share my story. Some of these themes are so repetitive--you may think it just happens to you, but it's a well-observed pattern.

Because I'm not as articulate and it takes longer to formulate a thought, I would not engage in the abusive conversations I experienced. I would limit my words to a few and if he chose to try to heap verbal abuse upon me, I would disengage. "I'm not interested in having this conversation now."

Once you understand BPD, you're not as likely to be wowed by the adoration, nor destroyed by the negativity. I kept believing that the nice times were reality and the ugly times were an anomaly.


About you: it's obvious that you are a strong person, keeping it together for your children, working and supporting your family. I know you'd love for your husband to return to being the man he was before he had his meltdowns. That may not happen. So what do you do now? I think you're doing the most important thing--looking truthfully at your life and seeing your partner for who he is. Where you go from here? Stay strong and acknowledge yourself for the hard work and strength you have.   

Just like many BPD stories are very similar, many DV stories are as well.

Unfortunately, I am more aware of DV stories that have ended in divorce or with the person that committed the DV never acknowledging/addressing the issue.

What I am positive of is that the only way to a healthy r/s for you and your husband is for him to address what he has done.

Your role in that (your boundaries) are to clearly lay out your position and the pathway he needs to walk to redemption.  Your role is to keep the message short, powerful and clear.

At that point... the ball is in his court.  

There are no guarantees... .

 

My hope for you is that you emerge from this as a powerful testimony of someone that stood up for themselves, their child and their marriage.  

FF

Ok. So what I am feeling is that I need to go to the session tomorrow. Hold tight to myself. And listen. And hear what he has to say. And then validate that I did hear it- repeat it back and make sure I understand what he is asking for. And at that point say very clearly and distinctly that what I need is to feel that he acknowledges the DV was wrong, and that he did in fact do it. And if things are to change, an acceptance needs to be made that we both have made hurtful moves in our lives together and to change anything, it all needs to change. I can't live with the idea he won't own his role, and he can't live with my "controlling" nature.

Yes?

 

I'm not going to argue against that... .

Those that know me on here are familiar with good, better, best...

I think you have proposed better.

Best would be (IMO) for you to have identified a program or something he can complete (will take time and effort) to address the DV.

That is why calling a DV hotline... .to find out what he can sign up for and complete.

Chances that he would "graduate" or complete a DV course without acknowledging it is wrong... .about zero.

I would not push for him to agree or confess to his stuff in the MC tomorrow.  He may... .or he may not.

Your goal is to lay out the pathway that he can choose to walk to get what he wants

I would stay away from admitting you have hurt him or done wrong (that is for another time)

2 goals.

1.  Understand what he wants.  This is confirming your understanding of the email... .you say it back to him and get his acknowledgement.  Finally, somehow confirm "is there anything else"... .or "this is your entire request?"  In essence... his request is for equality... .for fairness.  (Do I understand his request correctly?)

2.  Deliver the short and to the point message.  "I will be able to agree to ALL of what you have requested after you complete xyz"

Don't justify it... .don't "sell" it... .

If he refuses... .or goes off on some tangent.


"Help me understand the equality in our relationship that was demonstrated during (is there a name for what took place?)  How is it talked about?

How has this been handled/talked about in MC up to this point?

Back to a point about admitting things.

I would say that your line about both parties having changes they can and should make is a good one (that seems fair)... however... I'm reluctant to have you admit to hurting him.

All of that takes away from the clarity of what he needs to do in order to do his part to heal.

You have already acknowledged your willingness to change by accepting his proposal.

Hope that makes sense...

FF

This is the principle... .but it is not a solution.

His email and his proposal seems very concrete... .a solution that can be verified.  Vice an attitude.

It is critical that your proposal be clear and verifiable.  Either he attends and completes the program... .or he doesn't.

FF

Up until now he has completely denied it. He has not talked about it, and my words about it are the only ones spoken. He blames me for every single event. He says I made it all up.

However, I have a police report that suggest otherwise. The point being at this point, though, might not be to drag up past and try and focus on future, if we can have one. The case he make is that he cannot do it if I do not allow him to be an "equal" parent.

However, the path he wants to achieve this is completely bazaar. Only if I "allow" this will he consider working on our marriage? What?

Generally... the thought you expressed about not dragging up the past is correct.  HOWEVER, DV is something that should not be swept under the rug... .

Especially where there is an arrest, conviction, and sentence served.  To be in denial about that... .well... .that is not a good sign.

Listen:  I don't recommend "frontal assualts" on pwBPD.  In this case that would be any expectation that he own it, apologize tomorrow, and do a complete 180... tomorrow.  There is a chance that "nudging" him into a program... .or into counseling may work.   I stress "may"... . 

He will have to "get through" the DV program in order to complete it or graduate.  About zero chance a legitimate program will allow a guy to complete while in denial that it happened.  This places them as the authority figure and the "heavy"... .vice you.  Your role is not go get justice for you... .or to "fix" him. 

Let the professionals handle that. 

Your role is to clearly lay out his choices... .and to be wise and resist his efforts to "talk you down" to something more reasonable.

You can express that you are all for equality in parenting... .in all facets of the r/s

There is nothing "equal" about bullying, abusive words and behavior... .and DV... .that is about gaining the upper hand.

he will give you equality... .you will give him equality... .  How could anyone argue against that...

I'm sure he will try to find a way... .don't get pulled into the argument.

FF

My ex made statements to this effect during the b/u.  He essentially was trying to create leverage... .hold the relationship hostage... .until demands were met... .even though he had no intention of considering the r/s under the circumstances.  He brought up the idea... .If Sunflower doesn't do xyz, then she'll never have hope of me working on repairing this r/s. 

Ok, so one thing I am unclear about. I just spoke to the DV program director in our county. She said that the program is 48 weeks and usually court mandated.

How is me asking him to do this an "equal" request?

And how can I carefully ask him to do this?

I'm sorry if I seem foggy and naive, I'm just... .cautious.

Also, he denies it all. Even to the counselor. He says it's all me. How can I do this?

I almost feel like I should just go and listen tomorrow... .and save this for the next time. Refuse to sign a thing and change a thing until I DO get what I need as well. But tomorrow just Listen. Show up.

Just to bring up a diff perspective here...

I like where FF is going with this.  I like the idea of agreeing to his requests... .IF XYZ.  And leave the ownership on him to walk away from the deal or not.

However, I am concerned as I do not know the parties involved... .who will know of this mediation?  Is doesn't sound official.  Can it be thrown in your face by his lawyer?  I guess my concern is if a judge was ordering parenting time to  be shared equally... .he would not base it on DV unless the DV was harmful to the children.  I worry that a judge will see that you actually WERE willing to give equal parenting time... .and your basis for allowing it... .would be dismissed and seen as personal.  :)V is not in itself a reason to limit parenting time.  So the idea that you would... .may appear spiteful by you for demanding something "irrelevant" to the child's relationship with dad.

Depending on your circumstances... .this could come back to bite you in the bum?

Maybe also post in legal board?

It's not an equal request... .but it is a pathway to two equal partners being in a r/s.


Equal partners share children... .50/50.   Do you agree to this?  He obviously does... .I do.

Equal partners do not intimidate... .hit... threaten... etc etc each other.  :)o you agree with this... .I do.  If he does not agree with this... .don't react  But... .let MC clarify his position.  :)on't make any decisions tomorrow.  :)on't change any childcare tomorrow.  Wait for him to start the program.

Take copies of the police report and sentencing with you.  I'd be reluctant to bring them out... .but if there is complete denial.  Ask him to help you understand the police report... .hand him and the MC copies...  Sit... listen.

48 weeks is quite a program.  That is good... .|iiii

Might not be reasonable to hold all changes until graduation.  I'll have to think about that... others can weigh in.  Maybe a change or two at 1/3 of program (with good reports)... .another at 2/3rds (with good reports)... .and then equal at graduation.

How does this sound to you?  

What questions do you have?

How did you feel about your discussion with the DV people?

FF

He would FLIP if I made him wait. Completely flip. Go file for divorce. Because he is prepared to "get his kids anyway he can."

If I bring up the DV and tell him if x then y, He will loose it.

I think you need to lay out your side tomorrow.  Most of the time will be spent listening... and understanding... .focus on the email.  :)O NOT add extra issues.  No rabbit trails.

Once you are able to express the email to him in your words... .and he agrees you have it... .you understand it... .and that you have the entire thing (nothing else)... .it's showtime for you.

Boil that down to one or two sentences... .practice them tonight.  You need to be able to get them out of your mouth on autopilot.  Maybe write them down... .try to avoid reading them... .but do that if you need.

FF attempt 1

"Honey, I'm so glad you are seeking a solution that results in an equal relationship in all facets of our life.  That is what I want as well.  I am able to agree to ALL of your proposed solutions after you complete (name the program).  Are we in agreement on the solution to an equal relationship." (hush... .relax... .listen... .slow down... .don't jump on an agreement... or disagreement... .slow down)

note... .focus on using the word solution.  Remember... .you "agree" to his proposal... .you don't "grant" him things.

Agreement is from an equal.  Granting things comes from a person of power.

I wrote and rewrote it a few times... .please put your words in there... .or see if you can use what I put down.

It should take you about 30 seconds to say it.

FF

That is his choice... .he very well may loose it.  Don't make decisions based on him loosing it... .

If he starts to loose it... it is MCs role to keep things calm... not yours... .focus on listening and not arguing... .let MC calm the situation.  

FF

Isn't bringing up the past a rabbit tail?

I think in your posts that you mentioned that he at one point was physically abusive to your oldest child. Correct me if this is wrong.

If so, it is materially relevant to custody arrangements.

Please don't fall for the "it will never happen again" or the "you made me do it" or "if you weren't so [fill in the blank] I wouldn't get so angry" or whatever excuse he can come up for his behavior to try to pin the responsibility on you.

It's not your fault. He did it. He needs to take responsibility for his behavior and anger.

My oldest child is not his. Although he is what she knows as a parent, he's been there her whole life.

He does not have custody rights to her though.

No... it's not.

There is nuance here... .

Rabbit trail:  Last year my husband thought xyz... . (I've had this said to me in MC... .just let it go)

Critical issue:  Two summers ago I stood between my wife and D7 (I think that was her age then) to stop a beating, CPS got involved, family counseling was mandated and our family improved dramatically.

This actually happened in my life... .not exactly same as your DV... .but an issue that can't be "forgotten".  

From time to time my wife will rewrite history some... but she doesn't deny the event... .her role is sometimes fuzzy.  

Focus on the behavior... .not what they say.  She completed the counseling/treatment with me... and she no longer uses corporal punishment  Neither do I.

There is about zero chance a professional child counselor will ever recommend we start using corporal punishment again (given our history).  That is the only way I would ever go along with that coming back into our house.  

So, I "won" in that I got rid of the "beatings" or corporal punishment... .by sort of a flanking thing.

I never made her say she was wrong and should never do that (which would be a "direct assault" and be argumentative.

Even the family therapist guy focused on "a better way"... .rather than saying her was was "wrong".

I hope this gives some perspective on my history... .and again... it's not the same as your situation... .

CPS rulings are not as clear cut as a guilty verdict.

FF

Yes or no... .?  

FF

Yes, he has been verbally abusive to her her entire life.

So in this I don't try and get him to admit anything, simply say, if you do THIS, I will do THAT. No blaming, no push/pull... .

Sorry... .is that what you are saying?

Yes... .solutions that are based on action.

Solution... .solution... solution... .

take my few sentences I proposed... .read them aloud... .then try to say them without reading.  How does that seem.  How long did it take to get that out?  Seriously... time it...

FF

FF

He's going to wig out.

He doesn't believe he is a "batterer" therefore should not be "forced" to take a batterers intervention course. He said this to his lawyer when the court suggested it.

He is not being forced... he has a choice.

You are not being force... .you have a choice.

Very likely he will wig out.

If he wigs out tomorrow... .that is not a defeat.  Defeat (IMO) is letting the DV go.  Perhaps that would better be called surrender. 

Listen... .   you didn't choose this fight.  But I assure you that you are in it.  Big breath... you can do this!

FF

Thank you so much. My mom thinks your advice is amazing... .You really saved my tail today. I'll rehearse, and let you know how it goes... .

IF I sleep... .

My experience is that through not holding my husband accountable for DV, it happened again and again and again.

You don't want your children to be affected by this, I'm sure.

The arrest should have been a wake up call for him, but instead he chooses to blame you.

My concern is that it could happen again if he doesn't get treatment for his anger issues.

That's my concern too. It's so amazing to talk to someone who has been there. Thank you. Your being here is so valuable... .Thank you.

Do the best you can... .sleeping... .rehearsing... .actually saying it.  

You will do great... .

This is high stakes stuff... .it's normal to be nervous... .to be anxious... .

Remember... .you have... .and are making the choices to have a healthy family that is free of DV and the abusive behavior that goes with it (a nod to the older child and his verbal behavior towards you).  :)on't hide that choice... .don't blame him for his choices.  It will be very tempting to do that... .it would be very satisfying to do that... .

Very few solutions come from blame... .

Solutions... .solutions... .solutions... .(focus on that)



You shine the light on your choice... .

Let him shine the light on his choice... .

FF

Sorry, one more thing... .

How can I word "batterers intervention" in a way that won't instantly trigger him?

Because it will. And he will shut down then and there.

Thank you for clarifying some details.

Srry... .i didn not read the back story.

Why would those words need to be used?  Is that the name of the course? 

I'm assuming that is a name of the course... .so... you would want to say "complete 48 week course for domestic violence put on by (name the agency)"

I'm ok with dropping "batterer"... .I'm a bit reluctant to drop the dv term... .but I'm open

The key is that he attends an participates in the course... .not that he gets the words right tomorrow.

FF

Anger Management or Domestic Violence, at a minimum description.

 

If I don't get to post again or respond to you before you go... .

You can do this!   |iiii

You know your message... .keep practicing... .keep it short... .to the point. 

FF

well.

The session happened.

And I was steamrolled.

I cried. And although I said I agreed with wanting equal parenting, I couldn't bring up the DV course. I feel defeated.

And the counselor told him he needed to be more empathetic with me.

The bizarre thing that happened was as soon as we got there- and then at the end of the session- he was being all "buddy/buddy" with me. He even asked m if I wanted to go have a cup of coffee with him after the session. I feel like it's all part of the trip... .I can't believe it, right... .? No hope in that, right?

 

Please tell me that you agreed with his wants and desires... .and didn't actually agree to change the parenting?

Can you give some details of how you were steamrolled?  He said this, you said this... .counselor said this.

 

FF

If you didn't sign a mediation agreement in a state that holds you to that signed document, you can simply say that upon more thought, you have changed your mind and require completion of a DV program prior to moving to a equal parenting agreement.

If you are steamrolled, this really indicates you need a lawyer with you during conversations like this.  I know he doesn't want lawyers involved -- can you see why?

I'm sorry you were steamrolled.   

These patterns between the two of you have had years to become habit. Reading his email, I'm not surprised that he was able to overwhelm you.

I sense that you play fair and try to give him the benefit of doubt.

Whereas if he's like my ex-husband, he pulls out all the stops and turns everything to his advantage. Plus, if you're anything like me, I run at a much slower pace so when people talk fast and try to divert my attention, they're able to manipulate me easier than I'd like.

I have to slow things down so as to not feel like I'm dodging speeding cars on a freeway as a pedestrian. (I need to keep this in mind as I have to give a deposition in a civil lawsuit, where I'm expecting that the defense counsel might try a fishing expedition to somehow implicate me. My strategy is to put on my Asperger's personality and speak slowly, not be helpful at all and just answer the questions they ask. I'm not looking forward to it.)

Anyway, I'm so sorry about your experience with your husband. I have a sense that you're seeing a side of him that may not have been as clear previously.

well, FF, what happened was we went in and I handed the counselor a copy of the email to read. He did, and then asked me how it made me feel. The session then turned into the thing I thought it would- I agree to his terms or he goes about "getting what he wants another way." I voiced that I was afraid that he would try and take my children away from me, simply because that is what he had said the day he was arrested. Which was denied.

He stood up, took my hand, looked me in the eyes, with tears rolling down his cheeks, said he would never ever take our children away. When i called the counselor after the session, the counselor said this was the first session that he has seen between my husband and I that held even an ounce of good possible outcome. The counselor said that his main concern at this point is my husband's blaming and inability to see any piece of where I am coming from.

From our counselor's view, overcoming this piece is what needs to happen to progress in any capacity. Any at all. And what I agreed to, effective soon, is to allow our two year old to spend one night with him and see how it goes. She has never been away from me for a night. Ever. And she still is breastfeeding. The longest she has been away from me ever is 10 hours. This Friday will be 34 hours. We'll see how that goes.

In any case, it is my hope that he takes my agreement to try this- attempt his desire of "equal parenting." When in the session I voiced that all I have ever hoped for is an equal coparent. Who would ever want to parent three children alone? Ever?

Sigh. And that's it.

 

OK... so the "entirety" of the email was not agreed to.

I think this will be ok.  DV still needs to be addressed... .and I would ask you to consider something.

No more moving things "in his direction", without some things moving in yours.

You can say no.

Please don't take this as me saying you did anything wrong... .I don't think you did.

These things are messy... .you have a long standing pattern with him (I would guess)... .and that will take a while to change.

He has things to do to change that.

More importantly... .you have things to do (and mindsets to change) in order to change that

 

This will be ok... .

How often do you see your counselor?

Tell me about "I agree to his terms or he gets what he wants another way"

I need details about that to understand it.  Did he say that?

FF

When we were in the session, what he said was that if I don't agree to his mediation terms, he will take it to court (ie: divorce) and make it happen in another way. All the while I am saying that I don't think divorce is the answer for us, and that I believe we can get to a better place within our family and make it through. He alludes to a belief it this, but then always backs it with- "but just in case this gets taken to divorce court."

We see our counselor biweekly.

Ok... .he is "getting something" from divorce talk... .

That needs to be ended... .in and out of counseling. 

Listen... I guarantee you my wife has threatened divorce over 100 times... .more than likely over 200.

She has called lawyers... .had "lawyers" call my house and leave messages for her... .left "lawyer" papers "accidentally" in the printer.

Guess.when divorce threats ended... .when I stopped paying attention

I'll work on some wording or something... .

FF

I know. I need to act like it doesn't shatter me every single time. It absolutely devastates me.

And he knows it.

You are getting it... .however... .response needs to be stronger.  We are going to need to start a new thread... .in fact I'll go start one... you can hop in.

We also need a new thread about your next counseling session.

FF

Thanks!

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