BPDFamily.com

14 years of being hurt and angry.  Anxiety has always been hard for me, but for the last two years, it's been brutal and I've sought therapy.

My therapist recommended walking on eggshells.  After a couple months, I checked it out.  OH MY GOODNESS!  THAT'S MY WIFE!

It started so sweet.  Then a few months before the wedding, she got hypercritical over everything.  She even ruined the wedding for me because I dragged five friends to the dance floor to get some dancing started before "our first dance" and she was jealous because of one of the people being a woman.

From DSM
A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects,
and marked impulsivity, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts,
as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. (Note: Do not include suicidal
or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.)
YES!
2. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating
between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
YES!
3. Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
YES!
4. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex,
substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). (Note: Do not include suicidal or selfmutilating
behavior covered in Criterion 5.)
Very rare self-harm, hitting herself in big fights.
5. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.
Yes.  Not often.  In big fights. "I want to die!" she sobs.
6. Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria,
irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
YES!
7. Chronic feelings of emptiness.
Not so much chronic.  Certainly often.  It varies.
8. Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of
temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
YES!  Rarely physical, like less than yearly.  Mostly intense anger over nothing.
9. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.
YES!  A lot of "I never said that." "I didn't say it that way."  Often followed by her saying the exact thing she claimed not to have said and insisting it's true.  Paranoia about how everybody is against her, both at home and at work.

And of course all of this is completely variable.  Like one day she's sane and the next minute, hour, or day she's totally off.

I may be crazy, and I'm far from perfect, but she's undiagnosed borderline.

Years of couples therapy on and off.  Why doesn't she get it?  Why is it that when I do the right thing, she attacks me?  Why is she so sweet in therapy and then yells at me in the car ride home?  What the heck?

So... .I'm going to try.  We have two amazing kids.  It's just rough.

Hi GoGo,

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think marriage counseling is not necessarily a good fit for a couple when one of the partners has BPD. They recommend DBT therapy - for her. Have you heard of that?

Oh my! Yes, it sounds like she has rung all the bells here. That's tough! Is it having an effect on the kids?

As you read here though you will find there are a lot of great communication tools that can help make some improvements, or at least not make things worse. I was using some last night and today! They can help a bad situation if you can be disciplined and stick to them.

take care, pearl.

Oh, yeah.  Marriage counseling definitely didn't work.  We tried five or six different people over the years.  I don't blame them, though.  They can't help with what they cannot see.

I've heard of and tried CBT for myself, which seems to be like DBT.  It didn't work at all for my anxiety, but psychotherapy and medication are absolutely helping me now.  That's why I have the emotional bandwidth to really address the fundamental issues in our relationship while also running a business.

Yes, the kids are affected.  My 13-year-old daughter grouses or yells at my wife over almost every communication, especially when my wife is in her emotional stage.  With me, our daughter is 1000 times better.  My 11-year-old son doesn't get the brunt of the abuse, so he doesn't really see it or get it.  I think the real issue is that the kids fight a lot because they don't have good role models for dealing with conflict.    They're very smart and high-achieving kids, though.  Winning awards in school for academics and character.  I mean, truly amazing kids.  I could go on.

The good news is that her extreme behaviors aren't always there and they're usually not that extreme.  She's high-functioning in work life as a teacher.  Then she comes home to me and can't even change a light bulb.  So weird and confusing to me.  I mean, she's massively emotionally driven, and I'm pretty far over to the rational/analytical side.  Quite the duo.

My plan is to keep reading the eggshells book and related books.  To try these communication techniques.  To see where it all goes.  Last weekend through Monday were filled with major fights.  Then work schedules kept us largely apart other than briefly in the evening, and she's been mellow all week.  This has, of course, happened hundreds of times before. 

Anyway, I'll also try talking to my therapist about DBT.

Overall, marriage counseling was a horrible experience in my marriage. A complete waste of time and money (lots of it). In fact, I truly believe that marriage counseling hurt my marriage. The counselors just DID NOT get it. Much of the discussions we had would have been great for two rational, healthy individuals. But, that is not my marriage. I was very blunt about some of the violence directed at me. One counselor took the position that I must have been exaggerating and must have said something to make my wife go into a screaming, punching, kicking rage. I even tried to explain that I was lying awake at night stressing about being attacked. But, I'm a man, so I should toughen up, right? <that's sarcasm in case it isn't obvious>

It is great that you are trying to read more about relationships with pwBPD. I have as well. But, as part of my journey, I have also learned that I truly need to focus on myself. Truth be told, it is EXHAUSTING trying to constantly figure out what all the moodiness and anger is about. It got to the point where it was truly affecting my health. Don’t let that happen to you. If you need space from the relationship, take it! I know that some on this site might bristle at that. You will truly lose your way if you are continuously focusing on your spouse / partner’s needs and emotions. You cannot ignore yourself or your own needs.

I used to get so caught up in trying to understand why my wife couldn’t get control of her emotions. Now, I just have learned that she really struggles with her emotions. That’s just the way it is and it will likely continue. Even today, I am having to remember that mantra. She woke up in a horrid mood and there was a true darkness around my house when I left. I don’t know how else to explain it. Part of it is just the radical acceptance that I cannot change this person. She is going to dysregulate. Some periods of dysregulation last longer than others. That’s a part of life for me. At the same time, I am under a lot of stress with work. I simply do not have the energy to get sucked into that endless black hole. That’s for her to figure out. It doesn’t mean that I am checking out of the marriage or leaving. I am just having to reconsider and reestablish what my limits are. By limits, I mean what I can emotionally or physically take on. Likely, you will have to learn the same.

Remember, boundaries are about what you are comfortable with. Not about changing the other person. Take care of you!

You're in he right place, GoGo. I'm sorry you are going through such a rough patch. Keep reading and posting. Many people here have been through what you are describing. My spouse is a high functioning pw some of the traits. Most people referred to on this site may be sub-clinical, but that doesn't mean their behaviors don't hurt their loved ones.

Interesting about your experience of MC (Marriage Counseling). I wanted MC very early in our marriage, but my spouse didn't want to hear about it. I ended up finding a good T for myself. The interesting part is she was telling me that a counselor could not understand what she was experiencing. That therapy was only for people who somehow have something wrong with them. Very reactive anti-therapy response. It felt threatening for her.

For a long time I felt hurt by her not wanting to go to MC. Now that I read stories of people on these boards, including yours, I get a better perspective.

It looks like you are very intent to do everything you can. This is a good thing. The most important is to apply your efforts where it has the best chances to affect your relationship positively.

The communication tools have helped me a lot. They do work. It took me a while to accept her condition, to wade through my own grief of the relationship as I thought it should be (and will not be), and my anger at having to show empathy for her when she didn't for me (the double standard experience). Eventually, I hear her better it seems.

So will you. I agree with you. It is exhausting. There are things you can do for yourself to create more peace and balance in your own life, and your kids' lives. Take your time. It's a bit counter intuitive at the beginning.

I have had the chance to live apart for a few months now and it has helped reducing my own stress/anxiety levels. With kids it might be a bit more complicated. But taking time off sometimes can help with finding a bit of mind space.

You have come to the right place where there are many people who understand what it is like to be in a marriage with a BPD spouse and to have children that you love so deeply that it makes it harder to know what to do. Please be kind to yourself and realize that you have done a great deal already to improve your marriage by going to couples' counseling for many years, something not many people are willing to do. It can be painful and discouraging to discover that your wife has BPD and now you have something to go on as to what to do next, and yes, you are perhaps feeling overwhelmed as the prognosis for BPD is not very positive. With the love you have for your children and wanting to be the best father you can be, you will learn with time how to make their home life safer and more supportive, even with their mother in the picture. You will also learn more about how to be less emotionally affected by your wife's behaviors and perhaps see some improvements on her part as you set better boundaries with her. Do take time to use the tools on this site, and to learn as much as you can by reading on the internet and recommended books. Bring your questions to this board, as there are many men here who have children still in the home who are married to a woman with BPD. We are always here to listen and support you in anyway we can. With patience, love, and determination, which you have plenty of, there will be positive changes, and you will start to see results from all you efforts in making a better life for your family and yourself.

Hi GoGo, my heart goes out to you. I am married almost 20 years to a high functioning BPD. She is either in denial or truly not aware. Its a tough one for sure. I also have two kids about the same ages. All of the replies are awesome. Wanted to add my thoughts and support. MC was a complete waste of time when one partner has BPD. Therapists either completely miss the BPD or are aware of it but terrified of the BPD wife (in my case). Many therapists just can't handle the intensity. In either case, it is us, the healthier partner that is the easy target for the therapist work. I thought at times the therapist were actually driven by an unconscious fear of the BPD in their room. After 12-14 years of hell in couples T, I finally got my boys in to DBT. I even entered DBT to learn the skills. My advice, immerse yourself in DBT, it is brilliant, immerse your kids in it. Give them the tools, the language, the awareness that they also have a voice and that they should exercise their boundaries and limits. The HF BPD is a tough nut... .they are cunning, sometimes they do not even think to hurt, they just do it. Watch out for their projections, their sarcasm, their speed of communication that will tie you in knots and then rip you a new one. If you can though, remember, they are in pain. It may not look like it when they are spewing anger, however, it is just a cover for shame, embarrassment, their own hurt. My DBT therapist once said, "whatever she says, no matter how much it hurts, always assume the most benign reason why - they just don't think. This is not to say it does not hurt. Yo heard above from so many great people... .take care of you … protect your limits, your boundaries, teach your kids the same. Always, always, always, look forward, with BPD spouses, no matter how clear something is that has happened in the past, they want get it. Going back there is a swamp, you will both drown. As much as I want her to get it, get the pain she dishes out, the more obvious it is to us, the less it is to them. They really do not get it. Leave it alone. Set your limits, enforce then firmly, make sure your kids understand. It's tough being a goof father and good husband at the same time. You are doing great. You have the support here, people and resources. Good luck to you. keep on keeping on. Best, INVESTED

I've only realized now that my approach to MC was wrong. I would have done better at listening and not pointing the issues out. It totally backfired on me as well. My uPBDw just had enough and couldn't handle it. I just got berated for the weeks we went.

Driving there and back was so crap! I so get this!

Something that is helping me was reading the "The Incredible Years: A Trouble-shooting Guide for Parents of Children Aged 2-8 Years" and doing the course. My uBPDw hardly made an effort to finish the course or book. Pretty much handled it like MC. I think the possibility of being a better parent threatens her?

When you take a punitive approach with your kids they will fight more with you and get angry. Praise them and they will listen and soak it up. play with your kids 10 mins a day and praise your kids for the week. It is amazing the change in attitude and it is contagious.

It is no magic bullet but it helps with positive parenting.

About 1.5 weeks of things being pretty good.  She complained a lot about other people but not about me directly.  Then she started getting more and more negative.  When the negativity turned on me, and when she started in on the kids in front of me with a million useless criticisms, I didn't blow up at her but I didn't completely hold back.  Eventually I just insisted, as the blocked like crazy and I ignored her blocking, that she needed to stop complaining to me about everyone and everything.  I really wanted to scream at her, it was so frustrating, as she kept changing the subject and attacking me instead of hearing me on such a simple boundary.  The next day, after complaining several times, she said proudly, "I haven't been negative."  I pointed out the negative things she'd just said in just the previous few minutes, and that shocked her.  She still complained, but not quite as much.  Then hours later she said again that she'd not been negative, and I pointed out more that she'd said negatively, but at least she was thinking about it and trying.

Anyway, thanks to those of you who replied.  It's appreciated, and I did donate something to the board.

GoGo, I can definitely relate to being an analytical guy paired with an emotionally driven wife.  What a match!

As you can see from all these replies, we understand where you are, and feel your pain.  Now it's time to get to work.  The good news is that there are tools you can learn here to help make things better.  The first tool I like to start with is learning not to “justify, argue, defend, or explain” (JADE) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0).  For an analytical guy like me, working through things point by point and trying to get my wife to understand the logic of the situation was my go-to approach.  You may have already figured out some of this on your own, but take a look at that link and let us know what you think.  Do you see some room to modify your approach?

Keep in mind, that by advocating the use of these tools, we're not laying blame on you for the situation.  But pragmatically, as the healthier of the two, you're going to need to be the one to initiate change.

WW

Talked to two therapists this week, trying to find a DBT program for the wife.  One says the program is full but something might open up.  The other is leaving town and said to contact the business she worked at.  Doing all this with recalcitrant acquiescence from the wife.  We'll see.

DBT is a very worthy goal.  Take a look at this link on how to get a borderline into therapy (https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy).  The talk track for DBT is that it's skills training.  The philosophy of DBT is to support someone and help them learn tools to make life less stressful.  Don't sell it as therapy, don't say anything about a diagnosis.  Just say you support her and you really believe that it will help her.  Be wary about pushing too hard, since she may feel controlled.

It's natural to want to get help for our pwBPD, but also critical to look at how we can learn tools ourselves to help things go more smoothly.  Have you had a chance to check out that link I gave you above on JADE?

WW

Honestly, the whole philosophy of how to deal with the BPD person bugs me.  There's nothing smooth about accepting her emotionally abusing me and the kids.  It's a denial of intimacy to couch all my words in a way that won't trigger a person who was constantly triggered years before I even met her.  The philosophy IS walking on eggshells, but those eggshells are going to crack themselves if I don't crack them.  I shouldn't stomp on them on purpose, but I'm going to walk where it's sensible to walk, and if she wants to lay eggshells or landmines in my path, that's her choice.  After I tried to disengage from a few conversations and that just made her behavior worsen dramatically (she screamed at me, blocked me from leaving the room and escaping her, and when I pushed past her, she barred the house door so I couldn't come back in, and then she later told me I was yelling at her and that she had barred the door after me because she was afraid I'd yell at her), I said screw it and just decided to push her into DBT.  She can go to therapy, and we can work on this together, or we can have a divorce.  I'm not taking her screaming, threats, or bull___.

I did read about JADE.  What I realized is that I'm best off just saying what needs to happen and making it happen.  She's allowed to feel controlled.  I am being controlling, in a way, but she felt controlled when I tried to avoid her criticisms.  She felt yelled at when she yelled at me and I was quiet.  She felt hit when she hit me and I tried to get away.  There's no logic here, and there's no use listening to her.  It's a waste of time.  I can't manage her behavior or her emotions.  They're not my responsibility.  If I take ANY responsibility for how she feels, she will use that as an opening to blame me for everything.

The challenge is to unblend the enmeshed feelings so that you take responsibility for your feelings and she does or does not take responsibility for her feelings. For example, she is angry and can't deal with her anger, so she makes you angry. If you realize that she is the one that is angry and not you and don't get angry back, then in effect you have let her keep her angry feelings. This is indeed challenging with a person with BPD, as he/she usually gets the other person upset, and keeping calm and centered does indeed take some practice and awareness as to what is going on inside you. You will get better at being less upset by her behavior with time, though nobody is ever unaffected by all the toxic dynamics of being in a relationship with a BPD spouse. Keep us posted and let us know how you are doing!

My wife was recently going to a therapist that I believe helped a great deal. I wish she would continue, but I cannot control that. My wife would ardently (and sometimes violently) deny that she is BPD or BPD traits. She will accuse others of being BPD. But, she did open up to me about what she was doing in therapy. It sure sounded a heck of a lot like DBT based on my understanding of the therapy. It just wasn't called DBT and BPD wasn't mentioned. I've learned to care less about the diagnosis over time. I know what I see and I know what might help. 

I think I got married in order to have enmeshed feelings.  To not be alone.  She also does dramatic and mean things when I pull back, and I can't stand by while she does that.  What seems to be most effective is to just shut her down when she acts up.  I don't have to do it out of meanness.  I just have to do it to protect myself and the kids.   I have a phone call to make to a DBT group now. :)

Can you give us an example of "saying what needs to happen and making it happen?"

Have you spoken with her about DBT yet?  Is she interested?

WW

When there's shared control, she gets angry.  Why then share control?

I said she needed to get help managing her emotions or I was going to get a divorce, because I wasn't responsible for how she felt all the time, and I didn't want to be picked apart by her anymore.  More so, I didn't want her picking the kids apart anymore.  DBT or bust.  I'd call it a power play.  Maybe it is a power play.  However, it's not meant as one, because I'll follow through.  A fully-meant ultimatum.

Similarly, in the past, when there's been a major decision to make, like buying a car, she'll be paralyzed with indecision.  I'll support her by showing her options and reasons one way or another.  Eventually, after much anger and confusion that she'll say is my fault, she'll make a choice, and then, in the following weeks, months, and years, she'll blame me for how she feels unhappy with the decision that I apparently made for her or convinced her to make.  So I cut through all that and just make the decision.  If she doesn't like it, well, tough.  She was going to be unhappy and blame me anyway.  I tried to enroll her in the decision making over a car model this time around, and then I just said screw it and let her pick the color and that's it.

Also similarly, she used to yell, nag, and complain at me for how and when I washed the dishes.  Eventually I just said if she continued to do so, I wouldn't do the dishes anymore.  They were hers and hers alone.  Well, I stopped doing them many years ago, and at least the fights over the dishes stopped. The same happened with taking out the garbage and a few other chores.  In couples therapy, she brought this up, so I started doing them again a few years ago.  The abuse skyrocketed, so I quit again.

So she handles it or I handle it, but there's little in between that goes well.  Life is of course full of decisions that have to be made together.  The irony is how much she tries to get me involved in decisions.  At the grocery store, she constantly justifies her purchases to me.  "I'm getting this $3 item because of X Y Z."  "I don't need to be part of this decision.  Please don't justify it to me.  I trust you can make a simple purchasing decision on your own."  No, saying that isn't effective, and the behavior continues, as does her abject terror over me criticizing her over a $3 purchase.  She weighs in a good deal of the time when I leave a tip at a restaurant, too.  I mean criticisms over a dollar.

So yesterday, in the car, after she commented on making the tip, I said that we should have a family rule where nobody comments on what another person is doing unless there's a clear and present safety concern, not an imaginary one.  That questions were OK if they were meant as questions only, not as veiled comments.  "Why are you cooking that on such a high heat?" is not a valid question, it's a criticism.  "Can I put the butter away?" is OK.  18 hours in and no fight yet.

I've spoken to her about DBT.  We spoke with a therapist on the phone and via email, but the group class times don't work and the therapist is in a city that she feels is too far away.  She would prefer other cities, and she then listed off three that are all farther away and take much longer to get to and back because of traffic.  Which is to say that she rejected the therapist because she spoke with the therapist.  The city hasn't a thing to do with it other than being an excuse she could think of.  The city in question is, ironically, a city we drive to once a week for tennis lessons for the kids.

So interested?  No.  Willing?  Sorta... .

I'm going to look at online DBT since none of the local places work with her work schedule.

I can certainly relate to your frustrations.  Many sounded familiar to me.

Thinking about where you are now, what kind of relationship would you like to have with your wife in a couple of years?

WW

A normal one.

One where she controls her emotions enough that she doesn't drive everyone in the family away.  Where she doesn't attack us constantly.  Where I can not be so stressed and tired about home life.  One where normal behavior is rewarded, and where abnormal behavior isn't.  One free of gaslighting.  Otherwise, well, I can't deal with this anymore.  She's doing her damndest to drag out seeing a psychologist for DBT.  It's delaying on purpose, I know.  The question is, will she follow through?

Right now, she's mostly in contrition.  She knows she has to do something, but can she make herself do it?  She's getting very little from me emotionally because I'm not opening myself up to more of her crap.

14 years of difficult times is a long haul.  That's tough.  Do you cycle between good times and bad times?  Are there sweet memories in there?

You have a right to want all the things you want.  It's also completely understandable that you've arrived here focused on her behaviors that you'd like to have change -- you can clearly see how problematic they are, and they cause you great pain.

I'm going to ask what I'll admit is a totally loaded question.  When you lean on her hard to get her to change her behavior, while giving her nothing emotionally, are you satisfied with the results?

WW

There have been good times.  We do cycle between them.  They're just getting farther and farther between, the kids are suffering too, and it's hard to open up during the good times when I know the bad are just around the corner.  Why open myself up just to get nailed?

When I lean on her hard, I am rarely satisfied with the results.  Results range from nothing to mediocre, usually.  However, mediocre is better than what I get otherwise.  She did, over the course of the past three weeks, manage to call one psychologist and two DBT centers.  It's a glacial pace, and I'm not satisfied with it, but it's better than nothing.  Today I gave in and started calling places for her.  It took me all of 5 minutes to leave messages with two psychologists that had yelp reviews mentioning borderline or DBT, as well as leave messages with two more DBT centers within manageable driving distance.

Where I was going with my question is that you'll get a lot more bang for your buck looking at your own behavior and changing that.  I'm not laying responsibility for the situation on you, just saying that you control yourself, and by learning some of the tools here, you'll be able to get some improvements that will be within your control, which is great, because in my experience, waiting for our pwBPD to make an improvement is a sure recipe for over-the-top frustration.  DBT therapy, on the other hand, is one exception where I'd say use all of your wits to try to make that happen.  But if it's simply something you're driving hard for that she is not interested in, you won't be successful.

I think you would find it valuable to look at this page on how to get a borderline into therapy (https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy).  There's a video at the end by a clinical researcher who figured out how best to approach the challenge of getting someone to get past unawareness of a mental illness and into therapy.  The video is long -- an hour and forty minutes -- and the example he uses is about schizophrenia, but I was patient and watched the whole thing, and am glad I did.  He drops a nugget 37 minutes in, and finally gets down to business at about 1:19.  It's worth watching, but you probably also want to read his book, IAm Not Sick, I Don’t Need Help:  How to Help Someone With Mental Illness Accept Treatment. (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=86467.0;prev_next=prev)  In the video, he says that one of two things needs to happen to make it likely for someone to stay in treatment:  1. Awareness that they have a mental illness (usually not going to happen), and 2. A relationship with someone who listens without judgement and thinks they'll benefit from treatment.  He founded the LEAP Institute to train people in these techniques (www.leapinstitute.org).  LEAP stands for Listen, Empathize, Agree, and Partner.

Let us know what you think about this.

WW

I've tried every possible behavior modification on myself.  Everything sensible just ends badly because her goal, conscious and unconscious, is to be in control.  Set a limit?  Oh ___.  Watch out.  The consequences for taking control from her are brutal, which is why I have told her I will leave her and take the children if she doesn't get her ass into DBT therapy and work at it.  That's something she can't stop by attacking me. 

More bad behavior continues, like last week, she called our daughter a psychopath.  I earned immense scorn Monday when I got us three scoops of ice cream to share instead of two.  Seriously.

She finally has a solo appointment tomorrow, which I will attend.  That should lead to group DBT, knock on wood.

Went to first therapy appt together today.  It went well, I thought.  First time we were together with a therapist who actually talked directly about childhood trauma, emotional regulation, and things like that.  I think the therapist got it.  Knock on wood.  She also didn't yell at me on the way home.  We just had a normal meal together out.

That's good news!  DBT is a powerful program.  If she gets started and sticks with it, that would be an extremely positive development.  Good luck!

WW

GoGo, Any word or developments on the group DBT front? I'm specifically asking because I am curious about this as well. My spouse was seeing a therapist for an extended period who also finally "got it". Unfortunately, we simply cannot financially afford to continue those treatments indefinitely. My spouse made the personal decision to stop those therapy sessions. Glad to hear that you had a nice time after the therapy session.

I remember going to therapy sessions with my spouse with two different therapists who didn't "get it". Those sessions made my home life much, much worse.

She's seen the individual therapist twice now.  They haven't really started working on things.  It's been more of a get to know you situation.  Now that she has an individual therapist, she's emailed the DBT group center, asking for admission.  Having a private therapist was their prerequisite.

We're fortunate to have enough money to pay for therapy, and I'm sorry to hear about your financial limits.  That said, my wife has complained bitterly about the money I've spent on therapy dealing with my anxiety.  I think it's more an excuse than anything.

As to the financing, we would make it work financially if my wife approached me about this. Unfortunately, I believe she simply used finances as a convenient excuse to quit the sessions.

Yeah, I can totally see that happening.

Oh, so crazy the last couple days.  Sigh.  That's what happens when she visits her mother.  Trauma all over again.

I know that so well. I came to the conclusion my MIL hides in my wife for a while after visits. 

My spouse uses finances as an excuse a lot. Lately we have started to communicate again, some. And I hear her saying that she doesn't want to hear about financial topics because it's not good news. Well, in my opinion it's just life. No need to discriminate between not so happy topics and happier topics. But there is a point to be made about talking only about the heavier topics in life.

Like finances.

It's like talking to a fragile person who needs to hear nice stuff for a while in order to be interested in the more mundane stuff. That doesn't make her a fully mature person who is fully on board with facts of life. But it helps to see that good, inspiring news can help lift the desperation a bit.

Hmmm... not sure if that helps, but still a point of view.

Brave

GoGo, there appears to be a similarity between certain elements of our experiences. My wife also has a very toxic relationship with her mother. Her mother IS a very toxic person. She goes from complaining horribly about the treatment from her mother to making me the enemy who "hates" her mother all in the snap of the fingers. I used to get all caught up in it. I've learned that I just have to remove myself from that situation. I have enough toxicity in my life on a daily basis. I have not spoken to MIL in almost 2 years. I don't give her the silent treatment either. I just don't go out of my way to say hello. Thankfully, my MIL lives a long ways away.

When my wife brings up the truly awful things MIL says, I just say "sorry to hear it." Nothing more. Whenever I have entered into that dialogue in the past, it has almost ALWAYS backfired on me. That was before I learned about Karpman. "You hate my mother." Truthfully, I don't like my MIL. She's always causing some sort of drama. There's no winning with her. I say this as someone who has been in past adult relationships and spoken regularly with the parents of my partner. So, I have just learned to not try any longer with MIL. Just "be." I've also learned to just extract myself from that dysfunctional triangle relationship. It is so clearly dysfunctional. I used to be so caught up in the Karpman Drama Triangle with those two. It was to my own detriment and the detriment of my marriage. I'm trying to work on my relationship with my spouse, not MIL. If this sounds selfish, so be it. I have sat down and explained this to my spouse. I sometimes have to politely remind her of these boundaries. It's always horribly backfired when I've tried to be kind to my MIL. The stuff my wife's mother says to my wife is just horrible. It existed since childhood. I wouldn't talk to a dog that way. But, my wife has this desperate desire to please her mother (which will never ever happen).

Had a DBT intake session today.  I stayed for the first 20 minutes or so of the session.  This therapist definitely knew what was going on, better than any that had met my wife before.  Unfortunately, all that has gone on so far has been more of a "getting ready" than a "getting better".  DBT skills classes start in October.  She also recommended a therapist at that same office to do couples therapy in a DBT framework.  I'm not so sure about that, though.  Whenever we did couples therapy before, my wife mined ever session for excuses of her own behavior.  "I don't have to do this because you did that."  "Remember what the therapist said!"  This is all ironic because it wasn't what the therapist said.  It was just her skewed interpretation.  Would it be better with a therapist who knows BPD ways?  I'm really not so sure.  I think, at this point, it would be counterproductive.

That's fantastic about the DBT intake session!  DBT is a very long term proposition, so don't expect rapid progress.  But if you see any changes, validate the heck out of them.  The important thing is for your wife to stay in DBT. 

I absolutely would recommend DBT marriage therapy, if you both sign a release so that the marriage therapist can talk to your wife's DBT therapist.  That will prevent a situation where she tells different therapists different stories.  Of course, you won't accuse her of possibly doing that; it's better for the marriage therapist to suggest it.  If you have to, then just make it bilateral -- sign an agreement so the marriage therapist can talk to your therapist, too, on the theory that you're wasting money if these professionals aren't talking to stay on the same page.  If you are learning DBT principles along with your wife, it will help you support her, and she'll feel more supported.  DBT gives a framework to things that can move the focus away from blaming that can go on with pwBPD in traditional marriage counseling.  You are very lucky to have a wife headed for DBT and an opportunity to do DBT-based marriage counseling.  That's a best-case scenario.

WW

Hello sir, just read your post from May 2018. I have been married 34 years to undiagnosed BPD wife. It is a good thing that you are seeking help for yourself and kids. I got my kids a counselor when they were in high school, better late than never, and though they are definitely  marked by a turbulent family life, they are fine young adults. But I still reinforce that they are loved just as they are, and always ask how they are doing. That will be your lifelong mission since they are in a home with brokenness. But by taking care of yourself and keeping connection with them, they ll overcome this unfortunate set of circumstances. You are not alone sir, lots of non BPD spouses, we are legion.

OK.  Looks like I'm working just so I can put the family through therapy.  Sigh.

I'll see if we can work out couples DBT therapy.  Maybe get the kids in a DBT program too.  School and sports schedules are hard enough, and the nearest DBT therapists are a good 45 minute drive away.  I suppose we'll do what we can.

It's frustrating because, since starting therapy, she's been worse.  There's a "I'm doing it so bleep off" vibe to her.

GoGo, I would definitely encourage you to stick it out. I saw the exact same reaction when my spouse got into intense therapy. It seemed like there was a breaking point around the two-month mark where I noticed things improving. But, there was definitely a lot more angst and dysregulation right at the beginning. I cannot speak for your wife's therapist, but my spouse was working through some very heavy things that she had never addressed from her childhood.

Why do you want your children in DBT programs? My apologies if I missed your reasoning earlier.

Wentworth, what would you recommend as guidelines for identifying DBT marriage therapy? Are there any particular questions you would ask of the therapist before jumping in?

My daughter already has emotional disregulation, partly as a teenager and partly from just dealing with my wife.  My son says passive aggressive, nasty junk to my daughter on a daily basis.  He's developing his own negativity that he needs to control.  So DBT skills classes would be a good idea.  Therapy for my daughter so she can control her anger.  I can help her, because she feels safe with me.  When I'm not there, she regularly ends up yelling at my wife and son, though admittedly in situations that my wife and son start.  It's really a nasty setup my wife has engineered.

*I ask because I'm already witnessing some very disturbing mirroring behaviors from one of my kids (D5). I have asked my wife to get the child into therapy. It always ends up with "Oh, you think I'm a $@%^ mother, don't you?" It's heartbreaking.

We are looking at getting D13 into DBT therapy, with my wife's agreement.  D13 is having a lot of difficulty with my wife and my separation, and is giving me the silent treatment.  The DBT skill set seems like a good fit for our case, and directly addresses my concerns about what behaviors D13 may have picked up from our family dysfunction.


Hmm... .I don't want to claim to be too wise here.  The first criteria is someone who does DBT based marriage therapy and has space in their practice!  That's not a long list of people.  I'd want to know about the therapist's credentials, where they received their DBT training, who their practice group is, etc. (if they are doing true DBT they should be in a practice group that functions as a support system).  Finally, they have to be a good match for your spouse and be able to win and keep her or his trust.

WW

My daughter more mirrors me, my angry reactions to my wife's insanity, and my son more mirrors her, picking on my daughter.  At least in the obvious ways.  He made a nasty comment for absolutely no reason this morning to my daughter, so he loses his phone for the week.  Just trying to manage things.

I know things can get better in some ways.  A 17 year old I know told me how her father poisoned her relationship with her mother, but as her mother waited patiently, eventually the daughter realized that her father was the issue, not the mom.  The father may not be borderline, but he's got some kind of personality disorder for sure.

GoGo, I think you hit the nail on the head.  When we can be a calm, steady presence, our children notice it and may gravitate to us.  Even if they are gravitating to the pwBPD to keep them calm, they appreciate our healthy presence.  We can't always be perfect, and the kids may get upset when we show signs of strain, but I've recently learned that my kids did notice my calm strength over the years.    We are making a difference for them.

WW

Going to a DBT expert couples therapist today. The intake person at this DBT center was ON IT with seeing my wife's behavior. Hopefully this therapist can manage well too. Wife's regular therapist, while thoroughly trained in DBT, doesn't seem as hip to things and doesn't seem to be doing anything useful with the wife.

Well, that was a rollercoaster ride.  First session went too fast, just trying to establish what's going on.  Now the therapist is going on two-weeks vacation!  DBT skills classes start in a month, and I couples counseling continues then, too.  We shall see.

Good luck, that's excellent that she's headed for DBT.  It is the best possible thing she can be doing.  Now that her direction is set, are you ready to take a look at learning and applying the coping tools?  They dovetail nicely with DBT, and if you and she are each working your side of it, you'll make the best progress.

Are there tools that you've seen on the board here (look to the right) that resonate with you?  Other tools that don't feel like a good fit?

RC

A lot of what I see on the board I've tried and have seen fail.  The first thing that needs to happen is she finally needs to accept that she has a problem.  Until then, we're just waiting.  I hope that one of the psychologists she's working with can be convinced to actually diagnose her with BPD.  Then she might, just might, actually realize she has a problem.  I understand they don't want to scare her away, but what she really needs is somebody other than me pinning the tail on the donkey.

At this point, I think the most important thing is that she get a diagnosis for BPD.  Maybe some other diagnosis, but depression and general anxiety aren't what she has.  With a diagnosis she believes, maybe, just maybe she'll do the hard work it takes to make life easier and happier.

Being told her diagnosis is probably not going to help your wife. She will likely not accept it, as she does not seem to accept constructive feedback in general. The most important thing would likely be to get her into therapy with a therapist who can meet her where she is, while gently prodding her to face some of her issues. With this type of client, progress is slow, and it is usually one step forward, and then two steps back, and then forward again. I know you want to just tell her what her problem is, and I don't blame you with all you have had to deal with. Unfortunately, not being able to tell her exactly how you feel or anyone else doing this, is the problem. Do look at our materials on how to get a person with BPD into therapy. You might also consider going to therapy yourself, and then ask your wife to come so she can help you improve. Once you are in therapy together, the therapist can work on her without her likely realizing she is the actual target for therapy. Just my two cents. Keep us posted on how you are doing and what works. We are here to support you, listen,and learn from you. 

GOGO,
Zachira's 2cents is exactly what it took for my uBPDw of 36 yrs to finally begin getting some much needed help/relief from a great C. In her mind ALL of our relationship issues were COMPLETELY my fault & 100% caused by my actions past & present! heard it so many times I even began to believe it! 
So I did exactly as My so told me to do. I began to see a mc on my own . I found a great one that specializes in PD & addictions after a pretty extensive search. I hadn't been to more than 3 sessions when my so decided she better coming along to (make sure I was being honest about our situation).Crazy how Crazy works!  We've been going to successful mc & individual c for under a yr & no huge success stories yet but this c is a Validation Expert & I'm learning some of if from her as well. We've been to MANY others on & off over our 36 yrs that never lasted long because they just didn't (get it) according to my so.
Just getting my UBPDw into helpful therapy was a huge 1st step & the BPD /PD words are very seldom even mentioned.  My so has just signed up for DBT (waiting list) for her anxiety ,depression ,high emotions. as the c puts it. So if she sticks with it she will begin DBT therapy for BPD without even realizing she my have the aliment .
Crossing my fingers & hoping because I really need this for relief as much as my so. 
Wishing the hope & success that others of us have found w the help right here on these threads. Its a process & I've been told DBT is even more so & a long one at that, I'm also in it for the long haul.  NGY   

She's in therapy because I threatened to leave her.  She starts DBT skills classes next month.  She's in 1:1 therapy with a DBT therapist, but I'm not seeing much of anything.  We started with a DBT couples therapist last week, but the therapist is going on vacation and we won't continue until October.  It's been a horribly painful waiting game.  My wife is going through the motions, but she's not working on the emotions.  As my therapist said, for her to take blame probably puts her in a panic that's almost like dying, but that's exactly what she needs to do to heal.  Catch 22.

I'm not seeking peace.  I'm seeking health.  Peace is easy.  I just roll over to whatever she demands.  I just meet all her needs as well as I can, letting her walk all over me.  That's peaceful, but it's far
more painful than fighting, at least for me.

Can you tell us more about this?

WW

I think that, when my wife is cornered on something she has done that's bad, it puts her in a panic/fear corner.  I know when I get anxious, I feel like I'm dying and I'll do anything to escape or avoid that feeling.  I think it's much the same for my wife, but it surrounds issues of responsibility, love, and blame in a relationship.

The thing that I'm questioning is the need for her to take the blame in order to heal.  That is extremely unlikely to happen, and is not in keeping with the way DBT works.  Sure, between two relatively healthy people that could work, but it's mistaken to apply it to BPD.

The word "dialectical" in DBT refers to the synthesis of two seemingly opposite concepts.  For DBT, those two concepts are acceptance and acknowledgement of the need for change.  It doesn't place blame and shame to motivate change, nor does it say that the person is wonderful just as they are with no need to change.  As the partner of someone going through DBT, if you expect them to step up and accept blame, you're going to be disappointed and likely undermine their progress.

What you are more likely to see is her starting to use coping tools.  She may validate you (the first time my wife in DBT did that, I almost fell over).  She may avoid blowing up in situations where previously she might have melted down.  Validate the heck out of progress like this.  Do not ever expect to come to a mutual understanding of responsibility for past behaviors.  In my experience with my wife, her distortions regarding past events remained unimproved.  Look forward.  You will see signs of improvement through DBT, and hopefully you'll get a toehold that you can expand with your wife to make the future better.  Does that make sense?

RC

I'm not focused on the past in general.  I do look at recent events, though.  Her issues are in every interaction.  When I got up early to give her a hug, the moment we stopped, she made two complaints about our daughter.   I emailed her on this, as she had to go to work.  She said she hadn't realized they were complaints.  I explained that she had poisoned the moment for me, my attempt to reach out in a loving manner, and that they were most definitely complaints.  She just had no clue.  However, she acknowledged what she did and came to a realization that she screwed up.

Or the incident where I was making hard boiled eggs.  She decided to comment on part of the process she was thinking I'd do wrong.  I pointed out that I could do eggs perfectly fine without her and that there was a border she was crossing.  She replied that she was only trying to help because she saw that I might have done that thing wrong.  I repeated that she had passed a boundary, and she soon went into ranting about her jealousy over this and that and the other.

She's going to have to realize that she does this.  If she doesn't realize she does this, what good will therapy be?  Her therapist, who she feeds a massively filtered story, just sees her depression.  It's like somebody going into the ER, an arm ripped off, and the doctor diagnoses low blood pressure but doesn't notice the bleeding socket.  Yes, there's low blood pressure, but treat the damn source.  Yes, she probably has depression, but treat the source of it, which is her massively destructive behavior making most everyone in her life angry with her on a near constant basis.

In other words, I'm nearing the end of the line here.  I told her that, when we return to therapy next week, she sure as hell better stop all her denials and minimization of her behavior, or it's over.

Hearing complaints right after a hug surely would kill the glow, and is not how I'd want to start the day.  But let's look at the other side.  How would you feel to sit down at work, and receive a complaint, at work, from home, then have to engage in a discussion and admit fault to keep the peace at home?  Would you be likely to really be at a good place with it, or resent the intrusion?  Would you really "get" the intended message?

"She hadn't realized they were complaints" -- That would have been frustrating to hear, because they clearly hit you as complaints.  But can you acknowledge that for her, they didn't feel like complaints?  To really come together on something like that, you each will have to understand the other.  You are asking her to understand you without reciprocating.

"She acknowledged what she did and came to a realization that she screwed up" -- can you read what you wrote and see the loaded language?  The blame placing? 

Being second-guessed in the kitchen, or on any task, surely can drive a guy or gal nuts.  I've been there.  The question is what the healthiest response is.  Boundaries define how we react to a threat to our values; they are not about controlling the other person.  Take a look at this page on setting boundaries (https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries).  By pointing out that there was a border she was crossing, you quickly made it about controlling her behavior.  This would not feel good to any partner, let alone one with BPD.  She tried to explain herself, you asserted yourself again, and things went south.

We could work this egg example based on the way we teach boundaries here, and come up with a different way to approach this that works better in the relationship, but doesn't ask you to stuff your feelings or be a doormat.  Let us know if you're willing to work that example with us.

OK, can you read this quote and see how really strongly focused you are on modifying her behavior?  Of course her behaviors are unhealthy.  Of course everyone's life would be better if she made some changes.  Changes are hard.  You can't control her.  You can support her.  What you can control, and get a lot of mileage out of to improve the situation, is your own behavior.  I think it was mentioned a while back that you have a lot of opportunities here.

It's beyond frustrating.  We get it.  And I'm sure you probably haven't told us even half the things that are going on that are making things miserable.  Despite that, your situation really stands out as one that has an upside, more so than most that we see here.  Working the tools on this site could make a huge difference for you.  Though your wife does have unhealthy behaviors, sometimes you poke her once or even twice before things go bad.  She has some resilience, more so than many or most of the pwBPD described on these boards.  For your part, a few relatively straightforward changes could make a big difference.  Does your marriage deserve your best shot?  Are you willing to work with us on what you can change on your side of the fence?

RC

Radcliff , thanks for this long and thoughtful reply.  I fear mine's going to pale in comparison and not be what you want to hear.

You are wholly correct that I'm set on modifying her behavior.  Her behavior is utterly unacceptable.  She has to modify it, or I will not only take myself out of her life, I will do my best to take the kids out of her life.  Of course I cannot modify her behavior.  I can only urge her to.  I can twist her arm. I can show her the way.  I can't actually modify it for her.

Why am I trying to modify her behavior?  Because I've tried modifying my own, and the situation is still wholly unacceptable.  I've tried everything a thousand times.  I've heard her concerns, understood her concerns, sympathized with them and so on.  I've been calm and loving and strong all at the same time.  All it gets me is a knife in the chest.  It's a total waste of time with her.  Not gonna happen again.

I can scream at her, or I can be loving.  She'll still nail me and the kids time and time again.  I'm not interested, not anymore.

She's been going to DBT classes, seeing a therapist for DBT, working in her skills book, and going to couples therapy with a DBT-trained psychologist from the same place she takes her classes.

She does all of this because I said that either she changes or she's out.  After 14 years of screaming, crying, begging, convincing, wheedling, dealing, and pleading, it took a threat of divorce to open her eyes.

She then had an epiphany about how controlling she is.  She read an online quiz about "are you controlling" and got a big, fat yes.

She then, with the help of therapy and DBT class, has worked on cutting her controlling statements.  She's made actual progress here.  It's been nice.  It's hard for her, since she has these thoughts constantly.  She's just learned not to act on them, at least with me.  I believe she still does with the kids.  However, over the past two weeks, she's slowly gained more of a hold on this single behavior.

At the same time, her behavior in other ways grew very erratic.  She became clingy, demanding multiple hugs each day.  She made accusations.  She yelled after our last couples therapy session.  She keeps trying to assign blame and avoid blame.  She expects that her one area of progress will somehow heal 14 years of pain she's caused.

She's looking for validation in grand gestures.  She wants me to suddenly be highly interested in her, feeling all the love.

We've been at this stage before.  Where I start to be nicer to her, and she immediately resumes her worst behaviors.  I'm not going there.

See, she's not acting to learn how to control her emotions.  She's acting as a show, to try and win me over.  The best example of this is how she repeatedly makes a show of doing her DBT workbook sheets in front of me.

The couples therapist made a good metaphor.  I'm a cat that's been abused, and I'm hiding under the stairs.  Of course I've clawed and bit my abuser many times, but now I've decided I'm not having any of this abuse anymore.  Hence, the hiding.  Hence, me pulling back from the relationship.  She is the cat abuser who is now fearful of losing her cat.  She is on her hands and knees, reaching under the stairs, trying to grab me as she says sorry and promises never to hit the cat again.  Of course that just scares the cat further under the stairs.  Of course, when the cat comes out, she hits it again.  When the cat stays under the stairs, she cries and moans and feels out of sorts because the cat's love is gone.  Oh what shall she do?

This metaphor only went to far with her. I came up with another one yesterday, which she seemed to be more comfortable with:
A car crashed into a fire hydrant.  Water is shooting everywhere.  She is the only one who can fix the situation, the only one with the tools, authorization, and access.  For 14 years, people told her to clean up the mess, that she had to do it, and for 14 years she denied that there was a broken hydrant or a car crash.  Now she has finally acknowledged that there is water spraying into the air.  She's even put her hand into the blast, blocking some of the flow.  She then turns to the crowd that has gathered and says, "So be nice to me.  I've fixed the problem!  Look at how hard it is to push the flow back.  My arm muscles are flexing and I'm so tired.  The water is not all shooting high into the air anymore."

Of course the crowd looks and is unimpressed.  They have been rained upon for years.  The mess is still there.  The problem is not fixed.  The street is flooded with water.  This person is just putting her hand into the blast and wanting plaudits for it.  The crowd feels angry now.  Then she feels angry, for she has finally realized the spray problem and has even placed her hand, with so much effort, to damp the blast.  Why isn't she getting praised for her amazing realization and stunning effort?

So the crowd explains that she has to go to the valve down the block, open the lock on it, turn the valve to stop the flow, then come back.  Then she can tow the car away, revealing the damage.  She'll have to jackhammer through the concrete and dig down to rip out the bent pipe.  She'll replace the vertical pipe, fill in the dirt, pour new concrete, install a new fire hydrant, and then go back to turn the valve on.  A proper repair.

If she's doing those things, the crowd will be happy.  Then there's a great chance we'll have a relationship again.  If she's not doing those things, if she's standing with her hand blocking the water and refusing to see the complexity and scope of the issue, then there won't be a relationship.  The ball is in her court.  The power is in her hands.

It doesn't matter if the crowd is angry or the crowd is happy.  If the crowd is nice or the crowd is mean doesn't matter.  She has her job to do.  She has to acknowledge the size of the job.  As long as she does the job, things should be OK.  As long as she doesn't do it or acknowledge it, there will be a huge, ongoing disaster.

In the end, as long as I see her going to the classes and trying to learn the material, I will stay and watch.  I expect progress, though not perfection.  The payback will be that I will rarely if ever bite or claw unless I've been bitten or clawed first.  The payback she gets is that the better she behaves, the less I have to defend myself and the kids, and so the less I have to hurt her in response to her behavior.  That's not what she wants, but that's what she gets.  If she keeps it up for long enough, there may be room for my heart to thaw and for us to have a loving relationship again.  It's hard though, because she understands so little of the harm she causes.  She has discovered one thing, the controlling words, and she seems to think that's it.  That she's done, or almost done.

I've said this all to her.  I stay on message. I try not to get sucked into her garbage.  That's all I can do.  What you're suggesting, as far as I can see, would be utterly counterproductive.

She still says all her trauma was a long time ago, and has nothing to do with today.
She still tries to assign blame.  Almost every single day.
She still tries to use others against me.  She got my dad involved a couple of days ago.
She still ignores the depth of what she's done.
She still disassociates, saying something then denying she ever said it.
But at least she's far less controlling than she was a month ago.  That's more progress than I've ever seen. 
I have my opening.  I'm going to wedge it open wider with all my might.

Marriage counseling is not helpful if you're not working with a shared reality or with a partner who is willing to accept some criticism/blame.  It's a threatening situation with BPD because they feel like they are/will be under attack and there will be two people pointing the finger at them.  The flip side is that anything a counselor says about you can and will be used against you, and even distorted if necessary.   

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