BPDFamily.com

Hi there…

I’d like to share an update of what’s been happening over the last several weeks.

I was on here for several weeks prior, really struggling with my likely BPD girlfriend. I am a guy, by the way.

Brief background: two years of up and down relationship, with probably 15 break ups, accompanied by nasty letters, all blaming me…

last break up, about two weeks ago… Lasted a week. Then, after a week of no contact on my part, she sent me a text asking me to delete the iPad I had at my house I bought for her a few months earlier, and to do with it anything I wanted. I replied simply with “thank you“.

A couple of days later, out of the blue, she asked me if she could get the remaining personal items from my house. There was almost nothing that she really needed, but she insisted she wanted them anyway. I think she was throwing breadcrumbs.  I agreed, and she said she could come over right away to pick them up, and if I didn’t wanna be there, I could just leave them on the porch.

I had to really think quickly as to what I really wanted, and whether I wanted to be there when she came, or maybe leave and end things for good.  I chose to wait for her.

The minute she walked forward, I cracked a joke, and asked her if she wanted to go for a walk. We had a nice talk, and seemed to come to some understanding, although she was still unwilling to take any responsibility for anything that has ever happened, although vowing to try hard not to repeat the same mistakes. I thought that was progress, so we basically made up. Not sure how prudent that was, but still a work in progress.

Since then, we ended up going to the fireworks I had talked about so much, and she had a great time. She has stayed over at the house twice in the last week, and it’s been really nice.  Things seemed to be back in a good place. She seemed very stable.

Unfortunately, she was just starting an eight day stretch of work.

In the last handful of days, familiar themes every emerged. For example, this past Thursday morning, she told me she would come stay overnight after work, even though she worked until 9 PM, and possibly later. I said it would be perfectly understandable if she might want to just go home, since she worked early the next morning, as well, but she was pretty clear that she wanted to come over.

There was a bit of a hitch.., and that was my band practice was going to be at the house that night, and she feels estranged from my bandmembers, because she was in the band until last summer, when she stopped going because she was embarrassed about what had happened with her and I, and also feeling that I may have told them biased information about what the breakups were all about. Right.

No surprise… She called me at 10 PM that night and told me she was just going to go home because she was tired and had to get up early.  I got a little bit irritated, just a little… I told her that she should just be honest with me that the reason she isn’t coming over is because she wasn’t ready to confront my bandmates. No resolution.

Thankfully, the next morning (yesterday) she called seemingly in a good space and we set up a time to go walking, and have some breakfast, which was nice. It was guarded, though.  She seemed OK, but a bit aloof. She had worked eight days straight. Many of them12 hour days.  We parted more friendly than romantic, and it was unclear when I would see her next.

During our walk, she started to bring up her usual rant about politics and the pandemic, and she seemed to get heated as she was discussing it. That’s pretty typical. I held my cool, and contributed what I could, and tried to agree as much as I could with things that I thought made sense. I did offer a couple of slightly contrasting perspectives on things, but she seem to take it all in stride, which is good, considering that politics or the pandemic have been constant sources of splits and devaluing in the past, even from me when she has said things that have rubbed me completely the wrong way.

I didn’t feel that this time around. I’m getting so much better at not personalizing her opinion on things, even if they do rub me the wrong way. So, I’m not sure how that affected her. She seemed to do OK with it. I probably should’ve been smart enough to divert the conversation into something else, but truthfully, I didn’t have anything else to talk about, and she kept bringing the topic back up.  When she left, she seemed a bit distant. I guess.

So, after that, I spent last evening playing music with a friend, and typically, one of us would check in late at night, often her, just to say good night.  She didn’t say anything, and she hasn’t checked in yet today, like she normally would. She has the day off today, and we were talking yesterday when she was leaving about what she was going to do today, and she said she was going to spend the afternoon with her daughter and her family since she hadn’t seen them for a while, and I told them I would be available after she was done, but neither one of us declared anything affirmative. Sometimes, she would say “OK I’ll call you to see what’s going on“. Nothing like that was conveyed by either one of us.

So, I’m a little anxious. It almost feels too familiar, like once again, things are complicated with her and I can’t tell where her head is at.

I also wonder how I get continuously sucked back into the situation, and then find myself having to backpedal to keep myself sane. Of course, I don’t really know that anything is “up“ this time around, since for the most part things have gone fairly well, except when I challenged her a bit about why she didn’t come over that night. I did end that conversation a few minutes later by saying “you know, I’m not angry that you are coming over. I want you to be able to make whatever choices you need to make that will make you happy“.

Anyway… Enough for one post. Let me know if you have any thoughts regarding how to continue moving forward without pushing her further away.  Any thoughts from you guys are good thoughts.

Thank you for your continued support! I may be needing it in the near future once again. Who knows.

What is today’s update?

Thank you Cat Familiar. It’s nice to hear from you.

Well, today is our two year anniversary of dating. Ughhh. 

Even that triggers me a bit, because last year we decided to go to my favorite restaurant, which is the nicest place around, and later, when it dawned on her that I had gone there with my ex-wife, it became one of the themes of her breaking up with me.  If I had respected her, I would’ve never taken her there, knowing that I went there for such occasions with my ex-wife…  Trust me, I won’t be going back to that restaurant with her anytime soon….

So many things are symbolic for pwBPD that wouldn’t be for an emotionally healthy person.

I hear you, and I’ve gotten quite a bit better at avoiding those things and not bringing them up.

Would you suggest never bringing her to that restaurant again? It’s such a fabulous place that I would have hoped she would enjoy, and that was a year ago. Will that still be a trigger for her, do you think? She has been able to let go of a lot of that stuff over the last year. Thankfully.

Would you agree that her going up and down like she seems to have been going over the last few weeks is almost expected behavior? She seemed to have turned a corner a couple of weeks ago after our last reconciliation. She said things I haven’t heard her say before, and she seemed to be clearing her mind of a lot of the clutter that was bringing her down. I can’t tell if that clutter is back for the same reasons, or maybe it’s work related. She is still reaching out to me, as I’ve mentioned, although She really kind of only seems barely interested. Her lack of coming over supports that.

It’s likely that restaurant will always be tainted for her. This is who she is. You love an emotionally difficult person. Chaos and ups and downs will follow her forever, unless she commits to DBT therapy. Most pwBPD are not therapy compliant. So this is how she will be. Is this the person you want in your life?

That’s a very good question cat. I’ve been asking that question for the entire rocky two years. 

When she’s not crazy, she can be fantastic. My therapist says you have to be willing to accept the whole package, which I guess is obvious. 

I am not really young. I don’t have a tremendous amount of opportunity to meet people at my age, and her and I have a tremendous amount in common, when things are firing on all cylinders.  There are times when I adore her, and there are times when I think she has evil inside of her. How does one reconcile that with somebody that they care deeply for?

I spoke with her on the phone just a few minutes ago about what we were going to do tonight, our second dating anniversary. Last night, she seemed psyched with the ideas I had… Now her brain is just mush for working, and I keep making the mistake of offering her way too many choices of things to do, and I get the impression that drives her crazy.

on the surface, not a lot has changed.

youve just both been on the upswing, and a bit more careful/guarded. think about it like a honeymoon. the dynamic, the differences, are still the same.

stress comes up in her life that causes some distance. theres a confrontation. theres political differences. theres more distance on her end, and more anxiety on yours.


i dont want to overstate the significance of this, but these sorts of confrontations have been a kind of pivot point in your relationship, and a piece of the dynamic each time you break up.

why push her on this sort of thing?

there is something fundamental about the two of you where you get back together, and it seems nice, and you both want it, but currently, it just wont quite work, something is broken.

tag it. define it. determine a game plan.

Here is an update…

So… My lady friend and I had a date to go out for our two year dating anniversary this past Monday… I hadn’t seen her in a bunch of days, and didn’t know what to expect.

Low and behold, she arrived at my house in a really good mood, and we had a fantastic evening… Went out for a beautiful dinner, I saw the joyous easy part of her that I rarely see. It was a phenomenal night.

Sadly, I haven’t seen her since. She has had multiple nights off, whereas in the past, she would probably spend one of those nights at my house, but not anymore. She seems a little content with just having a part-time boyfriend, and perhaps that’s really good for her.  I guess I have to figure out whether I really want a part-time girlfriend.  It’s not really what I want, and I think she knows that, but I have often said to her that I am just fine spending time alone, as long as I know that she’s all right and I’ll be seeing her at some point soon. That’s what she has been saying this week… “I will see you Sunday after I get back from my weekend trip to see my sister for a few days”. I was happy for her that she was going to do that, but a bit saddened that she didn’t seem to have any real effort or interest in getting together before that.  I didn’t push her on it at all, other than to mention that I was bummed I wouldn’t see her before she left.

In any event, last night her trip was canceled because someone came down with Covid at her sisters place, and they are OK, but she doesn’t wanna take the chance of being around people that have been exposed. Understood. I felt badly for her to have to cancel her trip.

I had the night with my musician friends and we were practicing until fairly late… And it was a nice surprise around midnight to get a text from her saying that she hoped I had a nice day and good night.  I thought, what the hell, and called her… We chatted for over a half an hour about this and that, and it was OK. She was a bit cantankerous, which is understandable after her day of work.

Things started to turn a little sour toward the end, when she started angrily ranting, once again, about how the pandemic is being handled in our country, and I listened for a bit starting to feel a little bit edgy, knowing that I didn’t really believe the same things that she did. I guess I should have kept my mouth shut, but I very calmly and not aggressively told her my opinion on one of the points she was making, and I can tell she was agitated, because she even said “what do you mean by that?“. I told her my perspective on it and that I wasn’t seeing what it was that she was saying was happening with how the pandemic is being handled, and suddenly it got quiet… And I could tell she was starting to stew.

We both pretty much ended the conversation abruptly, and I told her to have a nice nights sleep, and we didn’t end with our traditional sign off of “love you“. I didn’t and she didn’t, which meant she was a little distracted by what I had said.

I think conversations like that, when I get sucked into them, put me in the “one of them“ columns. I suddenly become black, Because I am an outsider, a heretic, one of those people. I can almost see it written all over her.

I felt very disheveled getting off the phone with her, like I was going to encounter another one of her splits, one of her… “We’re just too different… We’re just not meant to be together… We never agree on anything…”, Even given that that was the only thing the entire conversation that we weren’t agreeing on, her mind seems to go into that guttural place of us versus them, and I am them.

So, not really sure what to do… Do you guys think it was a mistake for me to state my opinion, however gently and non-accusatory, given that my opinion contrasted what she was saying? Is that a mistake to make, or is it a bit of a boundary that I have set myself to be able to speak my truth and expect to be OK with it?

I suppose it will be me that has to check in with her next, since she has the day off today, although she won’t be going on the trip that I know she was looking forward to… I think I’ll wait until about noon, a few hours from now, to see if she checks in with me, but I suspect she won’t. I suspect her soul is rattled right now because I think under circumstances like this, she often comes back that she thinks I am arrogant, whereas I just see it as a difference of opinion. She often during splits has said “you never listen to what I say, ...you think I’m stupid”.

I suspect you are thinking this is just more of the same, and the roller coaster will just continue after this settles down? Any thoughts on how to handle all of these things?
 
Thanks for reading! :-)

She’s relating to you as a *part time boyfriend* and that works well as long as you respect the physical and emotional distance that implies.

You, however, want greater intimacy, more together time, and to be able to express your opinions and have them heard and understood.

She doesn’t want a boyfriend who disagrees with her world view and you can’t seem to understand that and keep trying to speak your truth. This is a fundamental difference that is not going away. She’s so entrenched in her opinions that any attempts by you to show her a different perspective just end up invalidating her.

The question for you is can you fully accept a relationship that is only a *friends with benefits with zero talk about politics or the pandemic*?

I might humbly suggest that this was "a mistake." It was late. She said goodnight. Maybe let that go, or text a quick response and tell her goodnight, too. There's probably not anything great that's going to come from a phone conversation that starts at midnight, and there's ample opportunity for things to go wrong. Take the "win," here, and move on to tomorrow. 

Yeah, I’m not really feeling like there’s much of a win here right now.

I gave her a little time today to see if she would check in, but she didn’t. So, I texted her early/mid afternoon just to say hi and said to her I hope she had a nice day… It’s only been 40 minutes, but no response. My anxiety is exacerbated by seeing her icon in Facebook messenger that she is online, which means to me there is no way she hasn’t seen my text, she’s just ignoring it for whatever reason.

Yes, she probably feels invalidated.  That’s happened so many times before by me just saying something that contradicts her reality. It’s really that simple. She seems to get so hung up with these issues, and she buys into a political and social stream so tightly, that anything outside of that can trigger a huge response from her. I’ve seen it over and over.

I think I get suckered into thinking things may be changing, based on interactions we’ve had over the last few weeks… Specific things that she has said, and conversations we have had that indicate that she is softening up a bit in her hardness regarding these conversations.  But when something gets on her nerves, she just seems to snap, and each time it breaks my heart, because each time it seems like maybe we are moving in a positive direction forward, and then we’re not.

Of course, this is my anxiety at work, because it’s only been a while since I texted her. I tend to get way over anxious.  It’s hard for me to function when I get like this, because it always feels like the end, and for good reason, the same kind of thing has turned out badly time and time again.

It’s also heartbreaking, because the times I have seen her recently, things showed a lot of promise, and she seem to be turning a corner. I’m getting this feeling that may be fleeting.

Don’t know if I want you to cross your fingers for me or not. If it’s turning out badly again, that will likely mean the end of the road for me with this lady that I really adore, when things are going well…. Nothing new there, I guess.

Hi all… I could use a bit of nuanced advice…

As you know, I suspect with good evidence, that I have annoyed my lady friend… By offering my own perspective, albeit gently, which contradicted her worldview. Guilty as charged.

So, I gave her until mid afternoon yesterday to see if she would reach out on her own, which she often does. No go. So, I finally took the bull by the horns and texted her… And it took her an hour and a half to respond, even though I could see that she had been on Facebook messenger for a good chunk of that time. That means there was likely not a great reason to not respond for that period of time, which was quite unusual, other than she was being passive aggressive. Maybe she was just thinking of what she wanted to say, who knows.

So, her responses weren’t unfavorable, but they weren’t hugely favorable, either. I was getting a few words here or there, or maybe one sentence over an exchange of about four texts.

Later last night, I texted her again and said I hope she had a nice day and evening. Again, two or three word responses, nothing indicating that she was still expecting to come over today, which is what she had said previously. I didn’t wanna push. No warmth or fun in her responses, at all, almost perfunctory.

So, it’s closing in on mid day here, and she hasn’t reached out to me, considering that it’s usually me that reaches out to her in the morning… I’m wondering how much space I should give this girl. I am thinking I will likely text her at some point, hopefully before the day goes on too much, and just ask her if she still expecting to come over, because it would be nice to see her.

The other thought would be to wait for her to get back to me entirely. If I did this, I would not text her at all, and let her be the one to make the first move. I’m not sure how prudent that is, since I suspect she’ll feel that I am being passive aggressive. That has backfired before.

On the other hand, if I text her first, I’m wondering if it seems too easy for her, and it may enable the same kind of patterns to repeat.

I know I’ve been in the same situation and ask you guys the same question many times… But what would you guys do?

Two "gut feelings" I'm getting about your situation.

First, re: who texts back first...

I get this feeling that she is still trying to get herself back to an emotional baseline after the political talk escalated the other night. The read I get on the perfunctory, brief texts is that she isn't back to a stable foundation yet. It's possible she feels not ready to 100% engage with you again, yet doesn't have the communication skills to say it verbally, so she's saying it with how she communicates -- the structure, not the content.

It's like if you're in the bathroom, and someone keeps knocking on the door. At first you say "be out in a minute", then they keep knocking and asking "hey... hey, are you ready now?" and so next you say "gimme a second". They don't stop and keep knocking and asking, really nicely, "what about now, are you done now?" No matter how nicely they ask, at some point you're gonna get really frustrated that they don't get the message -- the door is closed, and you'll open it when you're ready. Plus, the more they keep knocking, the longer it's gonna take for you to finish up and open the door.

That's my take on the texting back and forth. Give her some time alone to get back to a baseline. She'll open the door when she's ready and able.

Second, re: political/social talk...

If it were me, I would need to come to 100% acceptance that whenever she brings up something sociopolitical, I will not be able to share my opinion at that time.

Sometimes we believe that the content of a conversation is what the conversation is about -- and, sure, a lot of the time, with non-PD people, it is.

For whatever reason, with her as an individual and politics as a topic, I'd need to tell myself that whenever she brings it up, the conversation is NOT about politics. The conversation is, in a meta way, about how she's feeling and if she feels like she has space to share her emotions. No, it doesn't seem like politics are about emotions. But, for whatever reason, for her, it is. She connects "having the floor" with political talk to being emotionally heard.

The signal I'd be training myself really, really hard to see, is that whenever she brings up politics/social trends, I'd cue myself: "OK dude, now is the time to 110% LISTEN ONLY and not share my thoughts".

It's going to seem really weird and unintuitive. But I think when she brings this stuff up, she is NOT looking for discussion and dialogue. She wants to be heard and understood.

In your particular dynamic with her, I wouldn't say there will never be space for you to share your political thoughts. I think those spaces are going to be totally separate from the spaces and times when she shares her thoughts.

So, if you want to be like "Wow, look at this political article, I really think X about it"... the time to do that is NOT when she is on the same topic. The time to do it would be when she's nowhere near talking politics. Maybe a couple of days after she has had her say. And avoid any vibe of "convincing her of your point of view" like the plague. She will pick up on it. If your relationship is to continue, then you may need to radically accept that both your political views are individually yours and are not there to convince the other person.

When she talks politics, that's the time for you to emotionally understand her (note, not agree with, but work hard to understand why she would think that way). So, if she's like "I think this policy will turn baby seals radioactive", that is NOT the time for you to say "Actually, I just read this article, where 34 experts refute that stance, isn't it so interesting?" She's not looking for formal debate or logical analysis. There's something about radioactive baby seals that has some emotional content for her... find the validation target. That's the time for you to really slow down, take a breath, and either focus on the feeling (if you can find it -- like "I know how much you care about baby seals"), or, with warmth and closeness, invite "Tell me more about it... I'm all ears".

If you can accept that for your relationship to continue, you guys can't have normal political discussions, and that when she brings up politics, she is likely making a bid for emotional understanding from you, then you guys could certainly move things forward.

I think as long as the two of you see political topics so, so differently (in a meta way),  and neither of you changes your understanding of what the other person really wants, challenges and incidents like the other night will continue. You may need to be the emotional leader for this area -- can you be the one to change and let go of "having the debates"?

I say that with a sense that if you can, there is a way where "political content" could bring you guys closer, if you're able to manage the impulse to "have a hearty back and forth" and instead validate where she's coming from and empathize with why she'd feel that way.

Lots of food for thought...

kells76

Kells… what a thoughtful and intuitive post. Thank you!

I really appreciated your bathroom analogy…

Yes, I guess I have to be the emotional leader, and I’m trying really hard to do that… But she pushes my stinking buttons when she starts on these rants that seem so counterintuitive and somewhat destructive, in my opinion.

A week ago, we did go on a walk, and politics came up once again… I did mostly as you suggested, understandably so, and I tried to do more listening than speaking. I tried to validate some of the things that she was saying that I could relate to, to find a middle ground… But it’s really hard. Sometimes she is just so pissing angry and mad at everyone and the world. She may very well have the right to be, and I try to respect that, but her anger and political hatred sometimes eclipses my emotional sphere and rattle my cage…

I’ve had to think a lot over the last two years why that happens and how it happens… I guess it comes down to the notion that I sometimes believe I want everybody to think the same way that I do, and if they do, they may never leave me. I’m sure that’s kind of what she’s thinking, as well.

She probably takes a hit when she hears me disagree with something that she has said, even if it is not really a challenge, it’s merely me expressing my opinion. Somehow, I think that triggers her, in a way I can’t fully understand, but it probably makes her feel that I think I know more than she does, and that pisses her off big time. 

I’m going to try really hard not to be opinionated. I have been trying really hard, but I suck at keeping my mouth closed, especially when it gets under my skin like it sometimes does. Sometimes I can do it, other times I can’t. I constantly see the result of when I can’t.

And as a sidenote, I think that there is a part of me that feels fearful of not having something to say in response to her deluge, since I sometimes feel that may be if I don’t say anything, that she’s either going to think that I don’t know anything about it, or am deliberately withholding my opinion for whatever reason, or I’m just a plain wimp and can’t join the conversation.  That’s a bit of my conundrum.

There is good news. I went back-and-forth all morning trying to decide whether or not I should text her to say good morning this morning. I haven’t been bombarding her with texts at all. Just once mid day yesterday, for a short exchange, and once late last night for a brief exchange.

Thankfully, she called me out of the blue about 1:30 PM today, after I had been waiting and waiting to decide when, or if, to reach out to her today.

She seemed like she was in an OK space, but a lot of the times, when I get anxious, I get so excited to hear from her, that I just start going on and on about all the things I’ve been doing and all the things that we could do when I see her next. Who knows if I overwhelm her…

I think debates on politics can be difficult for even mentally healthy people, a subject I try to avoid. I think I would have a difficult time being romantic with someone where my beliefs where totally opposite, but if they intersect somewhere, I would be ok. They say your perception is your reality.

On the other hand, I agree with Kells, sometimes it’s not about the discussion, it’s about feeling heard. Sometimes you just need to vent.

I have posted this before, but I think this says it well

https://youtu.be/XIJYO4u5iug

Hi all… Another update.

We had a “date“ yesterday, also, I’m not sure it was really seen that way, but I suppose that’s what it was.

We visited a very cute touristy town an hour away, so I picked her up at her house and we drove up there… She seemed like she was in an OK space, kind of happy to be out, but not really warm and fuzzy, and only partially engaged, so it seemed.

We walked around for a good chunk of time, and looked in a few stores. All seemed OK. Just OK. She seemed really happy to be able to spend time outdoors and chill.

On the way home, somehow, the topic came up of the conversation we had last week about me feeling really disconnected from things where I am in life, and how I haven’t really felt like I fit in where I live, since I grew up in a completely different environment and culture, really.  I spend so much time alone and feeling isolated.

If you recall, I was somewhat concerned that she may have taken that the wrong way and may have been turned off by my darkness, or potential neediness, or whatever… I now get a clearer sense that I think she was.

She said things like… she thought I needed to work harder to build that kind of community, and that she has to work hard to maintain the small group of supporters and good friends that she has. For me, truthfully, I just don’t feel like I have a lot in common with most people that I encounter day to day in my travels. I just don’t. I work on that with my therapist, and there has certainly been progress, but I still often feel disconnected, lonely, and isolated where I live way out in the woods. I just do.

She does get that, and she seems somewhat understanding and supportive, but she did say some revealing things. She indicated that she thought maybe I don’t put enough effort into being part of the “tribe” with her friends because they belong to the opposite political party. I have never said that to her in the entire two years I have known her, and for the most part I don’t even feel that, which I clearly said yesterday. 

I certainly don’t feel like I fit in with them, although I enjoy myself when we go out to dinner fairly often (although she hasn’t invited me out with them in about a month, even though she goes to dinner with them about once a week).  I have certainly talked to her about our political differences, and mentioned that although I enjoy their company, I do feel a bit awkward when they start spewing political hatred, which has really only happened a couple of times in my presence. They all know that I belong to the opposite party, and I mostly keep my mouth shut. However, two of her splits came from things that she said at the dinner table, that I challenged, mostly gently, by offering opposite perspectives or explanations for things. That did not go over well, for obvious reasons. I suspect that’s why she doesn’t invite me there at the moment, plus it might be a little bit embarrassing for her to have to describe why I have disappeared about every month and a half for extended periods of time (her splits). I couldn’t tell you why she hasn’t invited me, other than perhaps she hasn’t figured out what end is up yet with her and I.  So, while she knows I am home and doing nothing, she has gone out to dinner with her friends, likely multiple times over the last month. While we are doing well, I would mostly go with her. I haven’t been invited in quite a while, though.

Anyway, she also implied in this conversation on the way home that because I don’t feel settled and connected in my life, that it means that I don’t feel settled and connected with her. I think she said something like… Well all of this tells me that you haven’t really found what you want yet. I think she was referring to her, but I didn’t want to push that definition. Although she didn’t say this, I think she gets a feeling that if I am struggling internally, that it must mean that she is not enough to make me feel complete. I suspect she feels that she needs someone that puts her up on a pedestal and that makes them feel whole and complete.  I struggle with that concept, and suggested to her that no person can make another feel a sense of stability. It has to come from within, and that’s what I’m working on.

I kept most of the rest of the conversation retroactive, as if I was kind of trying to reiterate what I was trying to say last week, and I did go on to try to encourage her to think that I was in no way talking about how I felt about her. I did tell her that our friendship, which is something else we talked about last week, was so hugely important to me and one of the most important things that’s happened over the last two years. I’m not sure if she was really sold, though. I think it was likely a mistake to pursue any of this conversation.

I have heard from a reliable source that people that have these kinds of mental health issues can’t relate to your issues. It could be that they are too busy inside their own heads to have to manage your drama. I tend to think that that’s mostly true. I know she tries to be supportive, and last week she was very supportive in a very loving and understanding  way, but I get the impression yesterday she was a little short with her understanding and support. I think she was trying, I think the tank was nearly empty, though.

So when we got back to her house, she did say she had a really nice afternoon, and she gave me a really gentle and sweet look when she looked in my direction… But then I put my hand on her knee, like I probably would have 1 million times before when things are going well, and I could see her hand almost come down to meet mine and then stop. So did her warm gaze.  No long sweet goodbyes as usual, no long hug or passionate kiss, as usual… No talk about when I would see her next.  Nothing to really indicate intimacy. At all.

She did say I should call her later after my engagement last night, and I told her I would text her because it might be late and I didn’t wanna wake her… And of course I did that and she didn’t answer, but it was near midnight. I also think there was almost 0 chance that she wouldn’t have been awake at that hour, But that’s crystal ball thinking.

I guess in some ways, it could be seen that it was a good day and perhaps a step in the right direction, but I still get this nagging feeling that these conversations that we’ve had about my being disconnected from things are destructive.  I don’t think she can relate, I don’t think she believes how I feel, and I don’t think she’s that interested. I think it just makes her feel that I’m defective, and she’s not really saying much that makes me feel hugely otherwise.  It doesn’t help that her constantly breaking up with me exacerbates this feeling of being isolated and disconnected. I won’t even go there.

I have an online friend that I was discussing this with yesterday. I guess I have to understand that people are different, but if I was with somebody that I cared about that was really struggling, I think I would try to be positive, and reassuring, and empathetic. I’m just not feeling those things from her, and I guess I almost never do. So, in many ways, I think I need to understand that when I am with her, I kind of suffer alone..

I know it’s not her job to make me feel stable. I have said that to her many times in a very clear, in a fairly thoughtful way, but it’s my job to feel good about my life, and it’s my job to take care of my own happiness, and I don’t want to make it seem like I expect her to make me happy, or any person, for that matter. I’m just not sure she can relate to the things that I say.  I suppose if I was struggling for my own sense of balance, like she does, I could see why it may be difficult for someone to wanna deal with that.

Other than that, I was in a cheery and positive mood for most of the day.

There was only one little political reference the whole day, and it was minor, but it struck me as being a little thoughtless… We were walking through a park, and there was a small group of people in a corner having a little meeting, and they had flags of the opposite political party all along the outside of the meeting, which I think was an attempt to invite onlookers in if they wanted to join… We walked right by it, without saying anything, And she walked a few steps over to one of the flags and very deliberately and lovingly waved her hand in it and felt it in support.

Part of me thought that that was insensitive of her to do, knowing that her and I struggle with politics. Truthfully, I Felt a little annoyed that she did that, but I tried to understand that she has every right to feel what she feels about a political party, or political figurehead, even though inside my stomach was turning a little bit with the thought of what her gesture was trying to say.  I tried to understand I had no business thinking or feeling what I did about that gesture. She is who she is and she believes what she believes. I was able to let that go after a few minutes, thankfully, but I guess it still resonates. I have absolutely zero ability to relate to her political affiliation. It kind of gets under my skin a bit, really. 

So, I want to feel positive about our day yesterday, but I kind of really don’t, if I am truthful.  She was kind of detached. Not warm and fuzzy at all. It seemed like her interest was more to enjoy herself, rather than to connect with me in any meaningful way. Although, she did engage in the long conversation on the ride home, mentioned earlier.

I don’t know, I kind of feel that this relationship is just spinning its wheels and not going anywhere. She hasn’t slept over in a week.  She didn’t make any effort to, even though she planned on spending the night last night, but I had another tentative prearranged engagement come up, so we had to postpone it. She had four days off in a row, and I was home and available each time, but she chose to do other things rather than come over. At times, I feel like I’m becoming a little bit of a second thought for her.

So, I suspect her attraction level to me right now is relatively low. It’s not off the charts, but I feel like her and I as a relationship are just barely hanging on. I think she is still referring to us as a relationship, which is good, but her actions seem to tell a different story, and one I’m having a hard time with, given that my own sense of interconnectedness and belonging are shaky.  There’s part of me that wants to say to her, “ look, are we together and moving forward, or are we not?“. I know that would be a stupid thing to say, though.

Lastly… When I texted her late last night, even though I got no response, I told her if she wanted to go out for a walk today before I had to go to work later this afternoon, I’d be up for that. I know she’ll need to go for a run this morning, which takes her most of the morning, so it’s my guess she won’t say anything, and she’ll probably text or call around 1 o’clock, at which point it will already be too late, and she’ll say that there’s not enough time to do anything today.  It just seems like she hasn’t been prioritizing closeness lately, and that’s just not making me feel good.

I know my posts are very long-winded, and probably sometimes repetitive, and for that I am sorry, and I do appreciate you reading this and trying to make sense of it, which is what I do as I write these.

Thoughts?

Your relationship is narrowing as there is little mutual affinity. You can spend a day casually walking around a tourist spot, occasionally have sex, but you don’t emotionally support each other’s needs. You hate each other’s politics and that is a core identity issue for both of you.

Couple big picture things.

Somehow...how you "think about" when to reach out..when to wait...checking her FB icon...is she there or not...and all that just doesn't seem helpful.  I suggest you take time to think about how you approach this differently.

It's one thing to limit political discussions because of "details" and it's another to limit them because you guys hate each other positions.

Case in point:  I can get in the weeds and talk about policy and all that...FFw doesn't want to do that, she just wants nice schools, nice roads...let someone else sort out the details.

So...I don't go there because she kinda gets bored, every once in a while I will point out an important meeting/issue/thing because I know it's something she cares about (and I do as well).

We are aligned on the big stuff (generally conservative) so our talks are not "arguments".

So...I'm going to toss this back in your lap and ask how important this is to you that you are in a relationship with someone you "are on the same page" about big political things.

I'm aware of husband and wives that are polar opposites.  My understanding is they respect each other and don't constantly try to change positions. 

Kind of a long winded "ditto" to what Cat Familiar said above.

Best,

FF

Thanks, FF. Nice to hear from you.

Well, one thing that I have began to get better at over the last year, is to be much more OK with her perspective on things. It’s not that I don’t like her perspective on things. Most of the time, it’s I have a hard time with her attitude, and her unwillingness to seemingly be OK with my perspective on things. For example, she would historically say nasty things about particular politicians, and say things that were really mean. I don’t say or feel those kinds of things about almost anyone, and it made me start to kind of question her character. I still do, to some extent, but I think I started to realize that a lot of her anger comes from places that I can’t necessarily understand. Therefore, I’ve gotten much better at letting it go and letting it be what it is. I think she’s having a little bit more difficulty doing that, even though she talks a good game plan.  Half the time, if she is in a particular complicated mental space, and I even say anything that remotely contradicts anything that she has said, I usually regret it.  It’s really that I dread.

So, we got together today for several hours for a walk, brunch, and Berry picking. She seemed to wanna talk about the state of America, and how it interacts with the world, and also Covid. I feel my current boundary is that I should be able to gently and noninvasively speak my truth and tell her what my perspectives are on certain things, and I did that again today. I was very careful not to say anything aggressive, or invalidating… But, I was able to offer some perspectives about things she was talking about, and she seemed OK by that. 

She even went on to talk either today or yesterday about couples who are opposite with their ideology and still get along just fine. They just have to learn to respect each other‘s space with it. I think I’m getting a lot better at doing that, and I think conversations like today may be helpful, rather than destructive. Time will tell.

On the other hand…  I was definitely in the friend zone all day. Nothing really romantic, or intimate, or even really very warm.  I know she enjoyed herself, but I’m not sure what that means for my relational perspective. She said we would talk tonight, and she said there’s a chance she may come over tomorrow night and stay the night, but then, when we were poised to part this afternoon, she didn’t seem to want any part of me kissing her to say goodbye. She’s never been like that.

I’m not sure she probably even knows herself why she feels the way that she does. I think she just feels conflicted about being in a relationship at this point, I’m not even sure I may have anything to do with it. I could be wrong. She never really had a good chance to truly heal from her last traumatic relationship… Since we met by chance fairly quickly after she parted from her husband… She probably needed some time just to figure out her own head. That may be what she’s trying to do right now.

One way or the other, she’s not breaking up. She’s not moving forward. I think she’s just trying to understand herself, and understand me, and take one step at a time.

I suspect if I know what is good for me, I will let her go through her process and just try to be the best and most fun me I can be.  It hasn’t been easy, but I’m giving her space to be Who she needs to be right now. I guess I can either accept that, or not.  Part of me wants to see if I can date other people. I think that would be a death knell, though.

What are three things you adore about her?

Best,

FF

Three things I adore about her…

- she can be incredibly affectionate, in many many ways. For example… She knows I have severe arthritis in my hands, and I struggle with it, and when things are going well, she’ll just reach over and take my hand and give it the best massage I will ever have.  I’ve never asked her to do it, and no one else that I have ever been with has been that thoughtful in that kind of way.

Additionally, each and every time we go to sleep, she gives me the best massages that a partner could ever ask for. She has done that the entire two years that I’ve known her, only minus one night that came before a split when she was struggling.  I don’t ask for them, and I don’t really need them, and it’s a time that we both massage each other, and it’s wonderful. I guess it’s her way of connecting. When I think of it, I really miss it when she isn’t here. It’s a beautiful way of sharing.

- she is generous to a fault. She treats her friends like her own family, paying for meals, helping them out whenever they need it. One of her dearest friends has pretty severe cerebral palsy, so she helps drive this lady almost everywhere.  Treats her like a queen, when they are not swearing back-and-forth at each other… :-)

- although her work is a source of constant stress and strain, for both her and the relationship, she is a higher level healthcare provider and works hard to help people who are sick and injured. She cared for my daughter last summer when my daughter had a “boo-boo“, and I watched with delight when my lady friend tender care to my daughter. It was loving and caring, and just for PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm)s and giggles, I was taking a video from my phone to capture it. Once in a while, I watch that video, and it reaffirms how caring and nurturing she can be.

- speaking of my daughter, my lady friend loves my daughter and puts her up quite high on a pedestal. I think she kind of envies my daughter, since my daughter has a much more type a personality, and really puts her self out there, so to speak. I think that amuses my lady friend. :-)

   - as a sub text to this last one, my lady friend is very family oriented. She has a son who is partially impaired, and pretty much allows him to live his life with almost complete freedom and supports him financially almost entirely. Sometimes, I think that she may be even enables his incapacity, but even with that being said, she will do almost anything to make sure he is provided for.  I find that hugely commendable. She puts out for her family, almost to the point of detriment to herself. Not almost, I guess.

So, you said only three… There are more, but I’ll stop there.

I suspect you asked me this question in order to really see what it is that I might like about this girl, and whether my codependency seems warranted. Well, when things go well with her, she can be delightful. It’s the other side of that coin that makes things miserable.  And miserable it can be.

So...here is the thing.  

You...not her, holds the key to "rebalancing" the r/s so that you "maximize" the "adore" and minimize the "miserable".

Boundaries and intentionally leaning into parts of the r/s that you adore.

So...stuff that bugs you..miserable..whatever, let her do it (or not)...but YOU don't participate or limit your participation to the absolute...ABSOLUTE bare minimum.

The stuff you like...be deliberate about opening doors for more and don't get wrapped up in the "why" when she does or doesn't walk through that door.

She is person to be adored...not a puzzle to be solved.   (for some that line resonates)

It's just as important to "chose love" as it is to "chose to not participate in miserable".  

Best,

FF

Love your thoughts on this, FF. Thank you.

I agree 100,000,000% with everything that you have said.

I do get caught up in the drama and, “why isn’t this happening?“ conundrum. That’s why I often believe that I have to be in control of my own happiness, and if she comes along for the ride, that will be great.  Easier said than done, in my pathetic soul, though… :-)

I do tend to avoid the good parts, and pursuing them, when I am fearful of her wrath.  For example, the other day, she was only lukewarm for most of our walk and our brunch, but then when I pulled up in her driveway to drop her off, she gave me the sweet loving look that I adore and wait impatiently for… And I responded by putting my hand over toward her on her knee, which would usually result in her grabbing my hand, and some bonding. She clearly looked hesitant and refrained from doing so. Maybe I should have been a bit more aggressive and take her hand anyway? 

That seems more proactive than reactive, I think.

I am also getting a tiny bit better at not worrying so much about where she is in her own head, when she is like how she has been for the last couple of weeks… Which is almost avoidant. Sometimes, I stew over why she may be feeling a void, and I am fearful to ask her about it, because in many ways, I think moving forward and just concentrating on positive experiences and having fun may be a better plan then constantly going over what’s wrong with the relationship. That’s been kind of my current pathway, anyway.

As for boundaries… Tell me if you think I am on the right track with this…

I think my own boundary pretty much has to be that I own my own politics, and my own space in my head when these things come up in her presence, and when I am not in such a great place. I almost feel like it’s imperative for me to be able to talk politics with her, but stand up for my right to be able to do so. She talks politics with me, and I don’t usually bring it up, and I do most of the listening, but my boundary for me has to be that I can convey my opinion here and there, but do so delicately, and without judgment or pressure for her to believe anything that I have to say.

I have gotten tremendously better at that, and during our last three walks, politics and the pandemic have come up, but I think our goals are similar for goodness and what we think is best for our country… We just have different portals of trying to do that.

Do you think it’s prudent for me to even engage in political discussions with her, given our history, or do you think it may actually be therapeutic for us to be able to get better at discussing politics without pushing each other‘s buttons? I have always told her I thought that we should be able to talk politics, because it interests both of us. Previously, we would get under each other skin and say things that were a little more aggressive. I feel considerably less need to do that, these days, and I think that does make a difference. However, when she’s not in a great space, like she wasn’t a few nights ago, I said something briefly contradicted her, and it seem to set her back quite a bit. So, I don’t quite know if even engaging in politics is prudent. She seems to want to go there almost every time I see her, though. Her self-concept seems to be wrapped up in connecting with leaders and the bad things that are happening in our country. I don’t see it that way, and I think that it annoys her if I try to validate my own perspective on things. She hasn’t shown that much in the last few conversations, but then again, she has also been emotionally detached, and who knows if the political discussions have exacerbated that. I just don’t know.

OK… She keeps blowing me off. It’s happening over and over again.

Yesterday, she said she would come over and spend the night today, because she was getting off of work early, and doesn’t work until later tomorrow… Mind you, she was at work at 6 AM today, and I know she’s probably exhausted.

She has done this repeatedly over the last four months, or so. When we are doing well, she does not do this. 

She knows I am going to be away on vacation for a week starting Saturday, and she’s working pretty much nonstop from tomorrow until I leave, which is part of the reason she suggested today and tomorrow morning. So, effectively, she has just eradicated any chance to stay over for the rest of the week, unless she comes over later, which she has done many times, but doesn’t seem too interested in doing now.

She asked if I wanted to do some thing in the morning until I have to work at noon. I’m at the point where I almost want to make some sort of statement and make it clear that I’m not interested in a part-time girlfriend. She’s not breaking up with me, but she’s clearly avoiding intimacy. That’s unworkable. It’s a stalemate.

Suggestions?  I’m getting close to doing or saying something I may regret.

If you want a future with her...what does "choosing love" and "choosing adoration" look like when plans change?

Best,

FF

That’s a good point. I was thinking a little along those lines earlier, when I was sitting there, by myself, feeling isolated, and feeling sorry for myself.

I tried to put myself in her shoes and wonder what it is that it is like to work the crazy hours on your feet all day like she does, and then have a guy who expects more from you at the end of the day. I tried to empathize.

Only once in the last six months was I a little bit obviously annoyed when she blew me off like that. Probably the only thing that seems hurtful is that she doesn’t seem to have too much interest in coming over here, or as mentioned in a previous post, even any kind of interest in real closeness or intimacy. That’s not merely about changing plans. That’s about avoidance. I can only speculate as to why she is going through what she is going through. I can only hope that she is figuring it out, and it will be a positive outcome, and not another split. I guess that is the risk, though.

I often go back-and-forth if I should even bring the topic up, because as was discussed in a previous thread, clearly, her attraction is low right now, so I have to be the one to somehow bring it back up to where it could be. That likely won’t happen if I’m hanging over every decision she makes, or wanting to talk heavy stuff every time we get together.

I’d be open to opinions on that, though: is it time for me to have “the talk” with her?

to some extent, i think this is part of the conundrum.

your happiness/stability is somewhat dependent on her affections and interest. i suspect she can feel that, and takes it personally/isnt sure what to do with it. it isnt just neediness, it may make her feel inadequate. and when she withdraws, you get anxious.

the alternative to this, that ive touched on before, is to make yourself more attractive to her. she has touched on a lot of ways to do this. without fun, without shared friends and interests, a relationship can start to feel forced. FF talked about depositing in the "fun account". those are all things that i suspect would make her feel a great deal more connected to you, and you to her.

i want to reiterate what Kells said, and i really do not think the conversations about politics are about "politics", and i dont think the solution is finding the "right way" to respond or not respond (in terms of getting your point across). they are symbolic for the larger thing(s) that is missing in the relationship. im not suggesting its deliberate, but think of them as her testing you. its about being heard. its about acceptance. find the way to do that.


you have done this before. it just makes her feel cornered. there comes a point at which we are saying something louder in order to be heard. she knows you dont like the cancellations. try something different.

Update…

I got together twice over two days with my lady friend… Both to have some brunch and go for a walk. Both times, I was able to remain calm and relatively happy… Pretty straightforward.

Still, both days… Zero real bonding, no intimacy, and still turning away upon leaving for a kiss on the cheek, only.

I am leaving for vacation, presumably, Saturday, and she knows she won’t see me for 10 days… Even with that, she made no real effort to come over to spend the night, which means it’s been a week and a half since she has slept over here. I couldn’t even tell you what got under her skin or what has made her turn that corner.

I wasn’t forcing bonding, or intimacy. I tried nothing even remotely close to coming onto her. 

Yesterday, after our walk, we went back to her house and sat for a few hours, and played some games on my iPad, which is somewhat unusual. She seemed like she was in an OK space, until time started to elapsed, and I turned the games off. Then she started talking about politics, and going on her usual rant in a very negative and almost paranoid way.

At the risk of going into details, she is afraid of the vaccine, since she has already had Covid, and she’s afraid something bad could happen.  she feels that the government, and the states, are trying to power grab by forcing everyone to get that vaccine, and she’s quite freaked out about it.

I do get her concerns, since there are plenty of unknowns with the vaccine. So, I tried to validate her concern, but I did try to be positive, which I think being a mistake, by telling her that I got the vaccine, and I felt every confidence that she would be just fine if she got it too.  She got a little bit snappy after that, and said something nasty and condescending… something like “are you capable of understanding what I’m trying to tell you?“  But I held my ground and said, “I’d appreciate if you don’t speak condescendingly to me like that…“, And although she didn’t apologize, she did say, “well, what I really meant to say was…”. I think it was my way of setting a little bit of a boundary. Only in the last six months I’ve been standing up to her attacks like that.

I have this feeling that she is being sucked down a rabbit hole of sorts. I read an article yesterday that talked about how many people are fed information through the media that make them feel that they have some “secret information“ that only the smartest are going to be able to understand, and everybody else is being victimized by the big bad government. I tend to think that she thinks I’m one of those people that has been sucked into The whims of the federal government.  It almost feels a bit cult like, but I do say, I have often wondered that it might be people that think like me that might be going down that rabbit hole. I always leave room to believe that what she is saying could be true. I doubt it, but I still sometimes wonder.

Anyway, once again, it was friendly when I left, and I got a nice hug, but I felt like I could’ve been her colleague, rather than her boyfriend. Even though it was only Wednesday, and I’m not leaving until Saturday for vacation, she pretty much said she didn’t think she was going to see me before I left, but we would likely talk before then.  When we are firing on all cylinders, she would never let me go on vacation without spending the night beforehand, or even getting together. Didn’t seem interested.

I almost left feeling that that was the end of the road for her and I. I left there thinking multiple things… A) do I really want to be subjected to that kind of anger and hate for the rest of my life?  B) I have no interest in chasing her and trying to figure out why I am in the “friend zone“ right now. I left there yesterday almost feeling that I was done.

I’ve softened up a bit in the last day since I’ve seen her, and I wonder if I’m being really hard on her. After all, she hasn’t broken up with me. She hasn’t sent me a nasty letter saying that it’s all my fault, she still hanging in there. She’s trying her best to not crash. Part of me wants to be empathetic and understand that she’s struggling with something. I just can’t be sure what it is.  Obviously, I’m in there somewhere.

I have resolved not to reach out to her before I leave on vacation. I’m wondering if that would be a mistake, and can lead to another definitive split.  She knows I would welcome hearing from her. So in some ways, maybe if she wants to talk to me, she’ll call me or text me before I leave.

Thoughts?

Look at the prior note from Once Removed about your happiness being somewhat dependent on her actions, affection..attitude towards you and/or the r/s.

I think there is a LOT there...I would hope you would respond directly to that thought.

Plus..look at what I've highlighted above...

Words can be really important.  I believe you when you say you were not "forcing" intimacy.  I think that only scratches the surface.

I would bet a large amount of money that she gets the vibe loud and clear...LOOUUUUUUDDDDD and CLEAR...that you wish there were more.

What I think you are missing is not a rejection of intimacy...but her saying LOUD AND CLEAR...that she wants casual (or other relaxed description)...

No evaluations of where she is or isn't kissed...no evaluations of how quickly she calls, or doesn't...texts or doesn't..is online and ignoring you or isn't...

That part is clear to me...(what she is saying NO to)...chilled and relaxed is the way forward.

Send her a postcard from your trip...ENJOY the heck out of yourself and your trip...minimize the amount of "evaluation" you do about "status" of the r/s.

Best,

FF

Well, yes, I do believe that she hears me loudly and clearly… I’m not sure I am drooling all over her, so I don’t think she can think I’m coming on too strongly with, which I haven’t been.

If anything, it’s probably been way more me that’s holding the fort together, by being calm, and easy-going and rational, and NOT making her feel forced into anything.  I’ve probably done that better with her than I have with anyone in my life. I think I’ve been nothing but chill. And fun. As fun as I can possibly be, anyway.

As far as her making a statement that all she wants is chill, well… I think she would tell you that she probably wants the same thing that I do, and that is a committed and decent relationship with a nice guy. I think she knows that I can do that, from experience.

I think it comes back to the trust issue again, and I think she thinks that we are going to go down the same path way… She’s going to spew her reality, I’m going to say something that she will perceive as being contradicting, and she’s going to feel invalidated.  That’s mostly her perception of it, but I think that’s what she believes… That’s all it has almost ever taken.

One could have the debate as to whether or not what she’s experiencing right now it’s like being in a cult. I somewhat believe that that is what is happening with her. Her brain just doesn’t seem to be taking things in accurately (Whatever accurately means these days).  Maybe I could say the same about myself, who knows. It almost feels like she’s a little possessed, which would not be hugely unlikely with someone suffering that kind of difficulty.  Her eyes begin to look almost terrified, and her whole demeanor gets really paranoid. It’s like she goes into a trance.  I’m sure many folks on here have experienced that.

So… That’s a tough one

Hey...this is specific to these comments...and also generally applicable to your entire approach.

I would encourage you to research...read...do deep thinking over several days about what appears to be ...

Dichotomous thinking...(or more simply black or white)

"real" or "not real" (for bonding).  no intimacy or "yes" intimacy.

She is wanting to exist in "nuance"...(a little bit of intimacy...like a kiss on the cheek)

I bring this up because it's been a struggle (and likely will for my life)..for me, especially when my wife dysregulates. 

So when I "catch" myself thinking black and white...it's a marker for me to chill..relax..take deep breathing seriously and give things time for nuance to be observed.

It also affects my mood. 

Much different to ruminate over and try to problem solve...

1.  My wife hates me my r/s is not intimate at all

compared to

2.  I wish we had been closer this past weekend

(a very real...recent example in my life...the brew ha ha only lasted about a day and a half because I was deliberate about "not participating".

Please...we are not asking you to defend yourself or explain how you are NOT forcing intimacy or such things.

We are asking you to "for the sake of argument and the r/s"...try out a point of view for a while and deliberately alter your actions and though processes for a period of time...and then evaluate results.

Best,

FF

I appreciate your thoughts. But I’m not sure I follow.

It’s not me that’s black-and-white thinking, that’s for sure.

A week ago, she was all in, and her intimacy was all over the place… Something clearly happened, and things have changed. I can’t change her.

I have taken a different approach. I’m not forcing her. I’m not trying to convince her of anything. I haven’t even been the one reaching out most of the time.

I don’t really know what differently I could or could have done.  Here may actually lie the answer. I likely couldn’t have done anything differently.

If anything, I have gotten stronger in how I am in her presence. I have read recently that this is sometimes what can cause borderlines to discard… that’s pretty much what it feels like.  If they start to sense that their partner is becoming stronger and more independent. Maybe less codependent… that’s when the end may be near.

Are you able to set aside your judgment/opinion about your level of black and white thinking...and engage in a conversation about the possibility you do this, but are not yet aware.

Hint...I see black and white thinking...in your denial of black and white thinking.  Do you see it?

Best,

FF

Well, it depends what you are referring to in regards to black-and-white thinking.

Do I sometimes fear that the bottom is falling out of this relationship? Often times I do. That’s not black-and-white thinking. I think that’s reality.

But reality doesn’t apply when dealing with a BPD partner.

And if you are referring to whether or not there is intimacy or no intimacy, well, it’s a pretty stark contrast to when she’s doing OK to when she is not. That’s reality as well. Whether she comes and sleeps in my bed or not is reality. That’s not black-and-white thinking.

Whether I believe her political stance or not. I try to understand what she is talking about, and I get her points, and I go with those. But for the most part, I think she’s in mental trouble. That’s not black-and-white thinking, although that’s a judgment.

I’m still not really sure where you are trying to go with this, FF. 

I think that you are suggesting that I may be going from pole to pole with this… That I swing one way or the other. That may be true, but what’s in front of me Steers that.  Am I always correct in thinking that she will be gone before too long, no, I’m not always correct. That’s reality, also, I’m not always correct. Borderlines defy typical thinking patterns. 

Most of the time, I think my assessment of what’s going on with her is  fairly accurate. I haven’t been wrong that many times, other than the fact that she usually comes back after splitting.  I’ve been wrong every time with that.

Yep...so let's evaluate "reality".  As you present it, where is the middle ground?   Do you allow for 1/2 reality to be ok?

Might take a couple back and forths...but I think your may "see" black and white in a more nuanced perspective.

Best,

FF

Well…

I was out playing music last night and my lady friend texted me out of the blue and said she wanted to talk to me later.  It sounded serious. I tried to encourage her to tell me what was going on before that time, but she seemed rather curt and disinterested.

When I got home, I called her, and for two hours, I was subjected to what was likely the worst emotional and verbal abuse that I have ever encountered in my entire life.  She was entirely hostile, mean, condescending and nasty pretty much the whole two hours. There was virtually zero that I could say that wasn’t thrown back as a weapon of condescension, hatred and meanness.

I couldn’t figure out how to defuse it. What to say. Zero I said did anything but made her angry and worse.

Most of it stemmed from the conversation we had 10 days ago, when I told her that I felt out of sorts here, and that I didn’t feel like I had a sense of family or connection here. I even thought later that she may have thought I meant with her, So I told her that I wasn’t referring to her, and I was referring to my feeling connected to my environment socially and communally.

She said that if I was feeling that way, it must mean that I didn’t feel that with her. She’s right, but likely not for the reasons she thinks. It’s because her and I have broken up about 15 times, and I have endured similar wraths almost as many times. That doesn’t make one feel a huge sense of potential connectedness.  But as I’ve heard many times, borderlines are often smart enough to be able to figure out connections to things that may not be obvious. She knows I hold back, and she knows that I walk on eggshells with her. She senses it. This is what it looks like to her.

The other item that came up from that conversation is the fact that I said to her that I wanted to go back to Europe and visit the country and place at which my 13-year-old daughter came into the world as the result of in vitro fertilization. She went on and on during the conversation how inappropriate it was that I would even suggest that she would go somewhere that had that kind of connection with my ex-wife. And how could I possibly even bring that up?  To her, That was a huge insult, and she went on and on about how she would never ever go anywhere that had that kind of connection with my ex-wife, and how can I possibly ever believe that she would want to do something like that?  In truth, it was a fantastic place that holds and important part of my heart… And I don’t really even think of my ex-wife when I think about going back there. She can’t trust that. She can’t hear that. She wouldn’t. I was an a*hole  for even bringing it up.  I apparently should have known better.

As usual, every single infraction came up, and it led her to this notion that I have done nothing in the two years I have known her to make her feel truly loved… I have never done any of the things that I said that I would do with her and I, and she even went as far to say name one thing that I’ve done to make her feel truly loved.

She said I was an awful boyfriend, incapable of understanding her feelings, negligent in giving her what she needs, and most importantly, failing to move forward and always living in my past. They are all familiar themes. This was the worst, I think maybe even by far.

Of course, everything was my fault, anything I said was allegedly my attempt not to take responsibility for my own poor behavior.  Most of this stuff for said with a raised and nasty voice, and it went on, and on, and on.

I went in the house quite late, probably 1 AM, and really wasn’t certain that I could ever speak to this girl again. Ironically, she didn’t actually break up with me. She said many things in the past tense, as if she had no choice to break up with me, which is what she said numerous times… Because of my behavior. I was giving her no choice, apparently. I’ve been that bad.

She said my demeanor was cold and calculated and dispassionate, even though I repeatedly asked her what I could do to help. She couldn’t hear it.

I guess I will spend a lengthy time trying to understand if there’s any grain of truth to any of the vile bile that came out of that girl’s mouth last night.

I continue to get caught in the trap of believing that the better I get at handling her triggers, maybe the less She will go into these evil nasty places.

So, for those of you that have encountered stuff like this, how do you get past someone trashing you so venomously and so deeply, and how do you prevent yourself from feeling completely abused and tortured?

Part of me doesn’t really know what to think, other than to eradicate this girl completely from my life.  On the other hand, ironically,  there’s a part of me that doesn’t think she deserves this. As much as I endured two hours of an absolutely distasteful despicable human being, there’s part of me that wants to understand and help. But I can’t. There is a decent girl in there somewhere.  I guess you could say that about an axe murderer, as well.

Don't participate in it.  Instead of 2 hours...2 minutes.  "Oh my babe..I'm not able to have this conversations now.  I'm going to brunch tomorrow and I can talk more then."  (be relaxed about this)

Please stop figuring out how to diffuse it.  It simply doesn't work that way.


Last:  The bolded piece is an example of "dichotomous thinking" (she is either in or out).  Would you rather use the term "dichotomous" instead of "black and white"?

Best,

FF

You are exactly right. On every account. I knew I shouldn’t try to defuse it or validate my behavior, and I did both. I did a lot of validating of her behavior, which I’m getting better at, as well, but not sure how effective it was, since it was likely drowned out by my own attempted rationale.

I also knew that I shouldn’t keep her on the phone like that. About 20 minutes in, when I could tell it was going to be long and painful, I said this to her very calmly… “You know, I don’t think we’re going to be able to come to any solutions tonight, so here’s what I’d like to do… I’m going on vacation on Saturday, and that will give us both a chance to think about what we are saying here. IF, at some point, you’d like to reach out and continue this conversation, I would be more than happy to hear from you.”

Her response to that was something like this… in a very agitated and angry way… “Seriously? That’s so typically you, you’re just going to shirk responsibility and avoid the consequences of your own behavior. Rich.”..

I think there was zero that I could say over that two hours that made any difference.

How does one navigate away from something like this? She can’t be thinking anything proactively at this point.

The one thing that I did think seemed to begin to work was I asked her “why don’t we ask each other three questions that we would like answered, and perhaps something we would like from each other that might be helpful to make us feel like We are in a better space”. That seemed to calm her a bit, but her first question, and it’s the only one that we got through, was “what does it mean to me to be a good friend”.  I think that came from me, over time, telling her that she was my best friend. I tried to answer the question, but she literally laughed in my face because she said that I wasn’t capable of doing any of the things that I was talking about.  She insulted my memory, she insulted my character, there was very little that she didn’t dig into in a hugely antagonizing and destructive way. Can you tell how triggered I feel?

How do I come back from that kind of hatred?

Please read my prior post...how do you think I would answer this question?  I agree she isn't thinking proactively.

Best,

FF

Well, I get it. She’s not thinking clearly. Well, right now, I am. She is likely an undiagnosed and unwilling BPD sufferer.  If this is true, she can’t help what she’s thinking and feeling and doing. That doesn’t change what’s best for me, though.

I guess I have known all along with this is what could happen, and has happened over and over and over for the last two years. Maybe, naïvely, I have believed that perhaps with love and kindness, her and I could overcome this tendency of hers turn into the vicious beast.

At this point, I have probably gone from the search and rescue stage to the recovery stage. No it’s not a matter of understanding as much as it is a matter of if and what I should do about it. I have kind of resigned myself to bowing out, unless I hear back from her, and I suspect it could be a while.

The telephone call didn’t end with a clear break up.  I don’t know if I can or should put myself back into that kind of potential situation. I need to be able to function, and being super sensitive and easily triggered myself, each and every one of these episodes of hers has sent me into my own tailspin. Granted, each one has been getting easier to manage, but this one seems like it may be hard to overcome. She said so many destructive things that hit my core, and they seemed so premeditated and targeted.

I guess I get it. That’s the goal, in her moment, to send the penetrating missiles and the heat sinking rockets into my soul to drive me away.

I guess my wonder at this point would be… should I be moving on or even be thinking about any of this anymore?  Can couples get past this kind of damage and function properly? Can she get past something like this?

And lastly, can she fully appreciate what she has done, at this point?  Will she be waking up in the next day or two putting together the reality that she self-destructive in a major way? Or will she continue to see her reality and she presented it?

I guess there’s a possibility that she has seen the writing on the wall from her own vantage point and instead of being able to find the strength to break up peacefully, this is what has come out of her… Rage and nastiness rather than a peaceful parting?  Do borderlines ever resort to this when they know it’s not right for them?  Does there ever come a time when a borderline is so stricken with torment that they just come can’t come back from their own self deception?

I just don’t know what to do anymore. I’ve told myself several times over the last few break ups that I can’t continue to do this. At what point does someone throw in the towel?

Ouch… blocked on Facebook.   It’s been a long while since that’s happened.  

I wasn’t sure what to think after this split.  I guess I was expecting to check back in after awhile, since there was no formal real breakup.  Or, I was really hoping she would reach out after the dust settled.  It’s only been 3 days.

She never said anything about us breaking up. Maybe since I haven’t reached out, she’s thinking I am being a PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm).   It seemed  that she was trying to force me to change my behavior to her favor, but I wasn’t really giving he much to go on, and she constantly was saying, “so… this is just more of you avoiding taking responsibility for any of the things you’ve done to me.  That’s your typical response.”  There seemed to be zero that could settle her unrest.  

Maybe I pushed too hard this time around.

I was pretty aggressive with her on our final phone conversation… I repeatedly said… “if you really believe all of these terrible things you are saying to me, then you know what you have do, and maybe I’m not the right one for you”.  She was silent each time after that…and said something like… “I don’t want to do this, but you are giving me no choice, because of your repeated behavior.”

I just don’t know what, if anything, to do.  Part of me thinks this is just another split, and once she settles, she may swing back around.  Could this be the final discard?  Would be so sad, and so unnecessary.  

How do I handle this?  I kind of feel that if I reach out to her this time around, it will enable the same repeated cycles.  

Given that this is the first time she has blocked during a split in months, I can assume she’s still splitting, so reaching out now may not be a good thing.  I hate to think of her suffering right now like she may be.

What would a reasonable move be for me to make to at least lower the likelihood of continued abuse?

What do you think could be going on with her?

I’m torn.

Kelly, you are dipping into co-dependency in this relationship and she has her own issues and its not working. There can't be two emotional and needy people in a relationship otherwise they will be constantly in conflict over not getting their needs met.

Does that seem like what is happening?

For example, you two have political differences. She wants you to validate hers (needy) and you want her to validate yours (needy). She is not going to change her views. Neither are you. There is no point in having this tug of war. Can you just unilaterally let it go? If she want to rant about the pandemic or the Rose Garden flowers - just go with the flow. Don't try to police her thinking or ask her to change it to protect your feelings.  Just go with the flow.


Next time she is upset, be patient and allow her time to come back when she is ready. If she wants to pout, that is her prerogative. Give her space - you will be surprised how well that works.

It's childish that she blocked you. But she knows it sends a message and you flip out. It's kinda "high school."  The best thing you could do is to never say anything about after she unblocks you.

Thank you skip.  I appreciate and value your input.  It’s much needed.

Yes, I’m needy, and maybe she senses it, but I’ve been pretty good at being independent, so I can’t say.

I don’t really pressure her in any way about her politics and pandemic.  I used to.  I think she just wants to vent, and as FF says, maybe test whether I can respect her perspectives.  I think I’ve done really well with it in the last 8 months, and only occasionally gently offered my perspective on anything, so I don’t think my pressuring or policing her ideology=gird has been much of an issue, as of late.

I think she just can’t get over my previous “infractions” and differences, as a whole, even if mostly created in her head.

Last time I saw her, she said she’d talk to me before I left for vacation yesterday, but I stopped reaching out to her with my usual daily hellos, so I suspect she felt I was distancing, which I was.  I think that likely exacerbated her unrest, until her nasty split call on Thursday night.   

She didn’t indicate a true break up, I think she was trying to rebalance the power structure, but when that didn’t seem to be working, and my not reaching back out after that call may likely make her think I’m distancing more.

I did say to her that she was making it hard for me to want to continue trying with all the things she as saying to me.  Can’t reason with her, though.

So, my usual strategy has been to wait indefinitely until she reaches out, which is usually by means of her sending a nasty final breakup text to end it. 

So… is it likely she’ll reach back out? 

This is probably the 15th breakup in 2 years.  Maybe enough is enough.

Interestingly, I’ve never admitted to her, ever, that I’ve noticed that she blocked me.

Once, she told me she did it in an effort to forget me for awhile and not keep seeing my profile icon come up on her screen… I’m sure it’s painful, since I haven’t contacted her, she may even think I’m done with her… or she’s pissed that I stood up to her fairly firmly during that last call.  I can’t even imagine what’s going on in her head.  There’s a huge chance that she actually believes the ridiculous drivel that came out of her mouth that night. 

Do you think she’s capable of actually believing the awful stuff she said to me?  It’s hard to imagine.

we all had/have girlfriends/wives that said/say mean, nasty things. brutal things.

we all responded to them by getting caught up in them, being hurt, and reacting from that position.

i dont mean to minimize it. what she said is hurtful, and youre entitled to that hurt. this is a great place to vent it. we get it. i said my own share of hurtful things back. awful things.

if you want this relationship to work you are caught up in things and responding to them in a way, every one of which is fueling the conflict, rather than shifting your approach to resolving it. whether its politics, whether its who contacts who when, whether its who makes/keeps plans, whether its who hurt whom more. its that opposing need Skip talked about.


youre stuck in a mindset that is self defeating. see past it, and whats going on in her head will seem to simpler to read. 

As usual OR, I appreciate your thoughts.

That’s just the thing… I’ve never said a mean thing or a hostile thing to her since I’ve known her.  I do try to convince her that what she is accusing me of is untrue, but not by arguing or accusing her of falsehoods, but by gently confirming my real motivations for my thoughts or actions.  I’ve tried really hard not to do that, but she sucks me in each and every time.  It feels that if I stop she’ll be proven correct.

So… I’m not entirely sure how to change my mindset and look at things from another perspective… what does that look like?

I do feel like I am considerably better at depersonalizing her accusations , although I keep getting sucked into her splits. 

I’ve gotten so much better at simply listening to her political challenges, and I pretty much never argue with her, and I always try to validate common ground.  I do sometimes offer a gentle alternative perspective, but our political and COVID conversations seem to not be as contentious any more.  There have been times during the last month she has said she appreciated me letting her vent..

I just don’t know what else to do.  She finds one thing after another to use as bait and tools to push me away.

I think she may have expected me to reach out to her after her splitting call, since there was no real breakup this time around, and her demeanor was mostly her hostile attempt to say “I need you to not be doing these things anymore because you are proving my points when you do” or something to that effect.

I just didn’t have it in me to respond for the next few days… first because I was hugely busy, and second, because I pretty much told her I was going on vacation the day after next, and if she wanted to call me up and talk more about it, she was welcome to do so.  She said i seemed cold and calculated and disconnected… that seems strange to me, because that’s not how I felt in my heart.  It was hard to say really gushy things to someone who is basically yelling at you with vile accusations.

I just don’t know what more to do or say to her that I haven’t already.  I’m actually afraid to contact her on fear of more abuse.  That is hard to manage.

So, I guess my main wonder now is… should I just wait this out?  Some of my friends think she’ll be reaching back out again soon, likely with more hostility, just like every other time.  But also just like every other time, Im not convinced she will.  Should I be expecting that she’ll get by this, like she always does, or should I expect that she’ll finally reach her permanent breaking point?

Do you understand that the experiences what I bolded as "mean and hostile"?

We are not asking your to defend you actions, we are asking you to take a fresh look at your actions and understand how they are fueling MORE CONFLICT.

Best,

FF

, but not by arguing or accusing her of falsehoods, but by gently confirming my real motivations for my thoughts or actions.  I’ve tried really hard not to do that, but she sucks me in each and every time.  It feels that if I stop she’ll be proven correct.

So… I’m not entirely sure how to change my mindset and look at things from another perspective… what does that look like?

I do feel like I am considerably better at depersonalizing her accusations , although I keep getting sucked into her splits. 

I’ve gotten so much better at simply listening to her political challenges, and I pretty much never argue with her, and I always try to validate common ground.  I do sometimes offer a gentle alternative perspective, but our political and COVID conversations seem to not be as contentious any more.  There have been times during the last month she has said she appreciated me letting her vent..

I just don’t know what else to do.  She finds one thing after another to use as bait and tools to push me away.

I think she may have expected me to reach out to her after her splitting call, since there was no real breakup this time around, and her demeanor was mostly her hostile attempt to say “I need you to not be doing these things anymore because you are proving my points when you do” or something to that effect.

I just didn’t have it in me to respond for the next few days… first because I was hugely busy, and second, because I pretty much told her I was going on vacation the day after next, and if she wanted to call me up and talk more about it, she was welcome to do so.  She said i seemed cold and calculated and disconnected… that seems strange to me, because that’s not how I felt in my heart.  It was hard to say really gushy things to someone who is basically yelling at you with vile accusations.

I just don’t know what more to do or say to her that I haven’t already.  I’m actually afraid to contact her on fear of more abuse.  That is hard to manage.

So, I guess my main wonder now is… should I just wait this out?  Some of my friends think she’ll be reaching back out again soon, likely with more hostility, just like every other time.  But also just like every other time, Im not convinced she will.  Should I be expecting that she’ll get by this, like she always does, or should I expect that she’ll finally reach her permanent breaking point?


[/quote]

I do… she perceives my explanations as hostile.  She asks me, I answer, and she doesn’t believe my answers.  Counterproductive.

Where do I go from here?  Give her time to chill or reach out?  I get contrasting opinions.

https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

Chill for a bit and consider this article. 

Look at your answer..."doesn't believe" and compare to invalidation...where I assure you that she heard and believed (on an emotional level)..your answer.

After reading the article, how does do you compare these concepts?

Best,

FF