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I got a string of weird texts demanding answers about some financial transactions.  I let FFw know I would be home later and we could discuss.

She logged into an account she has access to and transferred a small amount of money $300 (without asking) and then spent some of it, apparently on pizza.

I had been under the impression that we had been working better together lately.  The "tone" of the texts was a bit concerning and entitled. 

So...my focus will be (should she want to discuss when she gets home), listening and understanding the request first.  Then go from there.

Hoping I've "overthinking" this...

Had a great day today otherwise.

Best,

FF

My immediate thought is that some wedding week expenses she incurred, or that she took on for whatever reason she had at the time, are catching up with her and she's realizing she's short on funds.

Is her teacher salary paid on a 9-month, 10-month or 12-month plan?

If she is now feeling regret, she may feel shame, and bingo! It's FF's fault. Sigh...

She is paid over 12 months..so..predictable checks.  She reached out ahead of time and asked me for extra money before wedding...I gave her more than she asked for by a couple hundred.

Anyway..

I'm trying to be deliberate about doing this in a "healthy" way.

I saw the openings of a long email with little punctuation or indentation.

"I'm so disappointed.."

So..I stopped reading and took a shower.  I'm going to stretch out and go to bed.

Tomorrow I'll consider reading it when I'm at my best...or perhaps she will want to talk. 

On the one hand...no shock there will be relapses and odd points of view.  I'm trying to care for myself first and not add unneeded fuel to whatever fire is going.

I suppose I will need to listen and understand...If it was a "normally formatted" email...I would have read it.   It looked like "the good ol days.."

Sleep tight!

FF

Yes, 12:30 AM Central Time and shutting down...Talk in the morning. Again, I think she underestimated what she needed for wedding expenses and is having trouble letting you know that. And... First daughter's wedding...really not a big deal that the estimates were off. I wouldn't sweat that. The question is how the conversation re: wedding expenses were planned and then played out.

I haven't read the email yet...will do that at some point today.

It's very likely that she is thinking that.

Here is what doesn't work..regardless of explanation. 

Imagine that you are the steward of an account.  Making sure bills are paid and agreements carried out.

90% of the time (rough estimate for example purposes) your partner reaches out and explains a need..agreements are reached money transferred...agreement carried out.

No surprises.  No financial chaos.

Then..randomly a bill doesn't get paid or there is an insufficient funds even though you as the account steward made sure there was money to cover plus a margin.  Then you see a transfer you don't remember and there are no notes and it appears the money was transferred and spent by your partner on "non-emergency" items.  And the emergency buffer left in there for a tank of gas was also spent on things such as high end imax movie tickets, sushi and things of that nature.

There is a conversation..sorrow is expressed and promises that "never again" will that happen..please forgive me.

Then...it goes well for 6 months..whatever.  Then randomly (likely some emotional component) it happens again.

For those new to this..my wife has a full time job steady paycheck.  From funds that I steward the mortgages, utilities and all of that are paid.

So..$40k per year is my wife's "spending money" that she can spend without my influence.  I've never once peeked in the account.  From time to time we will make an agreement to do something together and if she promises money from her account...it generally shows up.  No financial chaos there. The times she doesn't show with all the money she usually is apologetic and has an explanation that kinda makes sense.

Here's what doesn't work for me...financial chaos.  I set things up...then randomly my wife goes in behind me and undoes it...causing overages or money spent on things we haven't talked about.  All without communication..when as part of prior reconciliation she promised she would never do that again

The truth is...my wife abrogates her financial agreements.  They will go fine for a long period of time, bu randomly..she will punt them when it doesn't suit her.

I am deliberate about limiting my exposure to that financial chaos.  I can control my response to her and I can control what I "expose" to her.  I don't control whether or not she actually keeps her agreement.

This appears to be an extension of that pattern..with a long winded email.

More later.

FF

I think I'd want to know what it was for. If it was for unexpected wedding costs, then that's potentially forgivable. It's entirely possible to have that happen and I've heard it happens a lot.

I know it is your wife's pattern to do this and it causes chaos. I understand you not wanting to go down that path. But first, find out what happened.

Right...that seems reasonable.

Rather than reading the email and sending a reply that way, I'm thinking I'll invite her to lunch and attempt a conversation.  If she doesn't want to talk about it and wants me to read the email...and respond that way..I suppose I'll read it and consider a response.

Why am I doing it this way?

Well...things seem to go better, (reference the last drama about leaving early with kids to wedding) with slowing things down and having a conversation in a neutral place.

I need to prepare for this because typically there is weird logic where I am blamed for not properly educating or explaining things to her..so her financial chaos is my problem (an invitation to rescue and her attempt at claiming victim)

I get it this leads me towards persecutor (and she may feel that way)...I want to approach this as "centered" as possible.

Thoughts?

FF

Money is a difficult topic for you two ( as it can be for couples). You have felt  blindsided and felt betrayed before.

However, your wife doesn't like being tightly controlled and if faced with something unanticipated related to the wedding, this may have prompted her actions.

I think just asking her is better than a chain of emails. She may get flustered explaining- there's a lot of emotional baggage attached to these discussions.

I can be pretty careful with the budget, but during a special event, with kids and possibly guests home, my food budget goes off the rails. For a special event- we could go somewhere and a kid has forgotten a shirt, well off to the store for a shirt, or pizza, or something. It's harder at times to keep tight control than others.

I think it might help to agree on a threshold for this. $300 may be something to let roll, or not, depending on your budget. If not, is there a way to compensate for this by spending less on things over the next few weeks? Maybe give her the chance to make the repair with her own budgeting?

Do you think there is a desire to rile you here? She feels pants about something and wants to provoke you into engagement... a bit like self harm by proxy (the harm, being told off, the proxy = you).

Dust has settled after the wedding and one of her chicks has flown the nest. The excitement has died down and she's 'grieving' the loss of the daughter out of the nest. She doesn't feel great and wants to shift it, or give that pants feeling some context. If you have a go at her "abuse and control her financially" by telling her off for breaking promises, she can then make sense of her odd feeling. I'm thinking a bit like when my D6 will randomly pick something up of mine and break it... she knows she's going to get told off for breaking it but almost enjoys it. All because she was hungry or tired. Is there an empty bed/bedroom, a slight imbalance in the house that feels odd?

Just a theory, but I sense she wants a reaction or a response and you give her predictable responses to financial issues.

Enabler

Enabler has a good thought here- she may or may not be letting her feelings out on you though, it may be a reaction to the transition.

Transitions aren't easy as a mom. Lots of mixed feelings- child starting first day of kindergarten- high school- college- graduations. All milestones to celebrate but with mixed feelings. I admit to feeling sad at these times too.

A wedding is one of these times. She may be feeling sad too. Weddings are also stressful- all those guests, family members, all the details.

Maybe this has nothing to do with you. I admit to doing some "retail" therapy sometimes. But being conscious to not let it get out of hand.

Personal expenses for a wedding can be higher than usual. Clothes, shoes, hair products, makeup- these can add up but they are not daily expenses. Weddings can overextend the budget. If someone is feeling insecure with everyone looking at them- that new great dress might help- hard to say no to.

If she HAD (past tense) overspent i.e. over the wedding period would she not have just put it on a credit card or gone overdrawn? Then repaid it next month "Whoops, I'll keep that quiet from FF"?

If she was WAS (future tense) going to spend more than she had i.e. I feel rubbish post wedding, would she not just put it on a credit card or go overdrawn? Then repair it next month "I feel rubbish, I NEED XYZ to make me feel better, I'll keep this away from FF radar. "

If she wants you to see and notice and wants to be 'self harmed'... FFW FEELS BAD, FFW IS BAD, FFW IS DISOBEDIENT, I'd have thought the best way to do that would be to take money out of an account FF controls and then make a massive song and dance about it and write big provocative email protesting how FF is horrible.

Just my thoughts, could be whacko.

My guess is she is going for a reaction, hence my focus on being centered...

She was "uber happy" and "uber nice" to kids this morning.  Spoke oddly to me before they went to ride horses.

More later..

FF

Hmmmm I’ve seen this script as I’m sure you have. The script where FF is isolated for persecution because he has to be punished. This is heightened by being super loving to everyone else. It’s as though the victimisation is laser guided.

What is the countercyclical move here?

FF doesn’t shame, FF ignores, FF fixes the boundary fence and shores it up with reinforcements?

Enabler

Yeah...I like this thought.

She came back from a couple hours with horses is a much better mood.  We had a solid conversation about progress on the (new to us) dually truck I've been working on.  S16 and I had a victory this morning and got the driver's door put back together.  (none of the handles or locks worked when we got it at auction...it's been a bear fixing it and figuring out what needs to be done)

Anyway...I'm thinking about asking her to do something tomorrow.  I'm having a good day here...and part of me doesn't want to mess it up...(is that wise or fear?)

Another day of chilling and she should be more reasonable.

Best,

FF

Man Formflier, I used to do this all the time, like ignoring that phone call because you KNOW who it is, on the other end... and what it is all about... and your just like...”not now”... they can just wait, I’m going to finish my cup of steaming “joe” and read the :cursing: funny papers... to me this is a form of self care.

... I remember thinking, “she will still be just as angry in a couple hours as she is now, so she can just “cool it in her track for a while”...

Granny had an “ism” for this, she used to say, “well now, they can take a cold tater and wait”...

Red5

Any chance that when you get your time together you might not talk about the money at all and talk about whatever issue you feel she might be stewing on, and discuss in the context of you... “it’s funny, it’s only after the dust of the wedding has settled I’ve had a chance to think about stuff, I suppose we’re now entering a new phase of our lives where our kids start moving away, getting married. Makes me feel pretty old.”

You’ve bought yourself/ purposefully made time here by swerving the email, not jumping straight in with boundary defences and a bunch of other things. Do you see how “the issue” already looks different after being given time to mellow and cool slightly?

FF, pwBPD are often volatile in matters of money, alcohol, jobs, parenting, etc.

As far as partners/spouses with BPD, there is no such things as "overthinking" as we are conditioned to be hypervigilant about anything that might portend a dysregulation.  This might be an "eggshells" feeling you are having.

I still intend to try and get together with her today and bring this up.

Yesterday actually went great.  Late in afternoon we snuggled a bit on the couch...then had some bedroom time.  Then went out to grab some food/snacks to watch fireworks with.  Turned out Sams club closed earlier..so we grabbed a bite to eat.

Then realized when we got home we had the house to ourselves for a while so watched a movie we had been talking about seeing for a while.  Then she showed me a new TV show on netflix and then we went to bed at my normal time (10ish)

She was in a great mood this morning.  She is heading off to do something in her classroom and I have a a/c system on our suburban to recharge with refrigerant.

So...it seems wise to me to bring up the email at some point.  I do think the point of letting her talk first about whatever is wise too.

Weird stuff.

FF

Now I want to know where the mysterious $300  went ...

This seems to be a pattern with her. Perhaps you can budget for this. Put $500 in savings that she doesn't have access too. Keep her own access to additional $$  up to $500/year. Let her do her thing- but you have it covered. You know she's going to do this from time to time. Rather than try to control it, perhaps budgeting for it and limiting the amount she can do this with might feel manageable. Once she gets to the limit, then it is an issue. Seems she does this only once in a while.

But if I do this idea...do I also close off her access to other accounts.

Said/asked another way...any place she has access to...she eventually seems to use in a dysfunction way. 

I can't see a way of doing this that doesn't create a "limit".  Which she will bump into and doesn't like.

Knowing she will blow it...why not keep the limit incredibly low?

FF

Yes, there is an inevitable limit, and I think it is the limit that irks her. Doesn't matter if the limit is $10 or $10, 000. A limit is a limit.

And if that is the case, then why not choose the limit you want.

I don't know about your wife but a boundary somehow stimulates my mother to break it. It's about control and she resists control.

Limits irk her. Perhaps that's why my father didn't enforce many with her.

You are doing something different and that irks your wife, but I don't see how this can be completely resolved with someone who doesn't want to have limits on a budget- which most people have to do.

Am I correct in thinking that if there's a limit (any limit), she will find it.

Isn't this the very nature of a boundary basher. If she is motivated to distribute pain to FF, making the limit wider just means she has to go further to cause 'pain'.

Enabler

It seems to me to be (randomly)...find limit and cross it.  Who knows the "why".

Seriously..most of the time she ask and almost always something gets worked out.  Then..randomly...a transfer and some apparently frivolous thing.

Part of me treats it (the MBA part of me) as inevitable waste.  You won't ever get a perfect system.  That helps me not get fired up about it.

Who knows.

FF

A friend of mine recently said that I undervalued spontaneity and impulsivity.  My gut feeling was... is there any value in impulsivity? Then got the point, there is value in impulsivity and sometimes NOT overthinking is rewarding.

Jury is out whether FFw has a desire to be impulsive and create a bit of unprompted chaos, or, has a desire to throw rocks at FF.

Enabler

How did this issue play out, FF?

It really didn't...perhaps later today.

It was a bit of an unusual weekend.  We picked up my daugher and hubby from airport in Chicago (return from honeymoon).  So we wen't to Chicago area early on Saturday and spent the day/night at Indiana Dunes beaches, then spend Sunday in Chicago...picked them up Sunday evening and got home late.

She seemed in good mood most of the time.

My current plan is to find unhurried alone time and ask her if she wants me to read and respond to the email.  That I would prefer we talk rather than email back and forth.

Open to other ideas.

To simply ignore it and never bring it up seems weird.  Is there a healthy argument for doing that?

So far I've read "FF...I'm so disappointed in your..."  and noticed is appeared to be a long thing with little punctuation and indentation.

FF

So now I am curious. What was the $300 spent on? You mentioned pizza- that's a lot of pizza. But probably not for a family the size of yours hosting a wedding if you include extended family members and guests, adding soda, desserts, pizza, tips.

I'm sorry...to clarify (and from memory)...$300 was transferred over and over $100 and change was spent. 

Before I speak to her I need to look at this and get all the details correct.  Maybe there was some cash taken out as well and the total ended up at $300.  Pizza and cash.  (perhaps I'm getting too good at not ruminating...I almost can't remember)

Basically..I don't think there was one $300 charge for pizza.  Sorry if I made it seem that way.

FF

Personally, I think the default position is to not bring it up.  Avoid drama whenever possible.  You need to justify why it is worth the drama to bring it up.  I think the main reason to bring it up is to ensure that behavior doesn't happen in the future.  The problem is you know that it will happen in the future.  Is it less likely if you make an issue each time agreements are abrogated?  If so, it may be worthwhile despite the fact that it can destabilize the mood in the house.

OK...let's go with this for a bit.

She sends a long email and I don't respond in anyway.  Isn't that "stonewalling"...?

Here is the other side.  If she really wanted to know she would follow up..right? 

I've obviously in no rush..it's not an emergency.

FF

I think you should read her email.  She took the time to communicate; it is respectful to listen.  As for whether not responding is stonewalling,  I guess the question is do you think she wants you to respond, or was she just venting?  The absence of any follow up on her part imo suggests that she would prefer to not discuss it.

This might be an interesting distinction... what is stonewalling and what is not being hooked into a dead-end argument?

A couple of days ago my W took issue with my objection to us leaving D6 (specifically, although D9 and D10 would also be left alone but I was 'less' concerned about their ability to be sensible)  in the house alone even for 15 minutes between me leaving for work @ 6am and W 'potentially' coming back from an early morning run @ 6:15. She seemed to think that I used to have a different view on leaving the kids alone in the house in bed for short periods such as her picking me up from the station late at night (which she never actually did). She didn't really have much interest in hearing any reasoning I might have for having a different view and after making her point (and I think feeling like she'd dealt her killer argument blow) she announced she was going to bed... and left.

This frustration of hers has come up a few times now so I felt the need to clarify:
"In Answer to your question, when you told me that I was abusive to our Children, citing it on the divorce application etc, the natural consequence for me was to completely analyse all areas of my parenting and attempt to move all areas to 1st class. I'm sure you can empathise that I don't have the luxury of rough and ready parenting anymore. Some others do, but they are not in the same position as me. What was okay then might not be okay now."
Her response... "Ok"

Although I feel like my clarification was necessary, especially since it is a recurring hot topic, on reflection I wonder whether or her run request was nothing at all with running or even leaving the kids alone in the house, it was about 'CAGE BUILDING'.

CAGE BUILDING - the process by which someone with a victim personality attempts to reinforce their delusional perception that they are somehow physically/emotionally/financially
   controlled/inhibited/contained/restrained from doing as they desire. This usually takes the form of making unreasonable/illegal/onerous requests of the 'gatekeeper' (gatekeeper = target of the victims delusional perception of entrapment aka Perpetrator). The gatekeeper usually has 2 choices, maintain reasonable boundaries which reinforces the delusion that the victim is restricted, or yield to the unreasonable request and resetting a new 'normal'.   

There were so many other options which could have resulted in a good outcome for her, such as leaving earlier or taking a shorter run. Neither option was put on the table by her (or me). She didn't go for a run in the morning and was still in bed when I left in the morning. I think I was hooked into 'Cage Building', she got what she wanted and was satisfied.

Enabler 

Cage building- that was brilliant.

I agree that someone could have a need to be in victim position. So there's no way to respond well to a request without agreeing to something unreasonable or reinforcing their perspective.

But you did the right thing here. The request wasn't just unreasonable. It was downright negligent. FWIW- I would not consider leaving a 6 yo alone in the house at all. Your wife's request involved not providing proper care for an innocent child. That's the only true victim here.

In all honesty, email and text has to be the worst communication medium for people with bpd when it comes to emotional issues, IMHO. I avoid it like the plague with my wife.

Horses for courses, I find it to be effective because I don't muddle my points and she can often read and re-read text and calm herself down. It also allows one to rewrite a message to ensure it isn't invalidating but gets the point across.

Enabler

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