BPDFamily.com

I realize most of our BPD partners make a lot of bad choices, but wowie, BPDH has really been on a roll lately. He's screwed himself at work, his life is pretty chaotic right now, and he did the one thing to top it off: He did something I feel is low down, and deliberate. He chose to do something, knowing it would hurt me(because I respectfully told him it would). Of course, he's too narcissistic to do much else. Knowing that, and living happily with that reality are two very different things. I think I've accepted that he is, but it still hurts me knowing BPDh doesn't value me in healthy fashion, nor does he care about my feelings.

I spoke over the issue with my T today, and she agreed, a healthy husband would have handled things differently. Which I already knew. And she also asked if he'd made any attempt to make a repair, after his really poor, deliberate choice, and of course he hadn't. He clearly even knows what he did was unfeeling, and wrong for everyone involved(he was being a bad parent/role model, and really not a good spouse), but he just does whatever feels good in the moment.

Right on the heels of this most recent incident, which I'm still hurt over, he's also gifting the last of our money to his grown son for "Christmas", because his son is behind on bills. Plus, he just paid his son's phone bill today. Yeah, we'll just live on LOVE the next two weeks! He didn't want to get me a Christmas gift, but he sure would move heaven and earth to get his son anything he demands.

I'm not even really in the mood to be around him on Christmas due to his recent poor choices. He wants me to be supportive of all his recent crises, but I feel he's to blame for where he's at, and he's continue to do more of the same. It's frustrating, but I mostly handle it well, but I have to admit, inside, I'm losing patience with sympathizing with someone who wants to make bad choices, then cry about it later.

I always manage to climb out of this hole of frustration, but I've come to wonder if maybe my ability to empathize, and support him, is maybe making him feel less accountable, or softening the blow of cause and effect for his poor choices. My T even sort of asked that. I try not to caretake him, but I am huge on empathy, probably because it's something I'd love to get from him, but he's just so incapable.

Maybe I need to do less empathizing? Not point out the obvious, that his actions got him there(that would not go over well), but maybe less empathy for things I maybe shouldn't be empathetic too? Does that make sense?

CB, your posts have me wondering what are you seeking in the long run in this relationship?

Each of your posts is about how your H's choices and behaviors are hurting you, and this seems to be repeating itself. The topic may be different, but in the general theme it is this:

Your H chooses his children over you, and that hurts you.

Should you be less empathetic? possibly. Is your empathy enabling him? I don't know for certain, but this is something to consider.


Are you happy or unhappy? While you say you have accepted him and things don't bother you, your posts say otherwise.

Hi Ceruleanblue

It sounds from what you write that you are stuck in toxic gridlock with your husband, and that is unpleasant.   

To me toxic gridlock means that one or both partners have given up trying to work on solutions, trying to find constructive relationship advice.    Venting about difficulties is fine, it can give us immediate relief in high pressure situations.    There is the concern that venting can become triangulation and enabling.   I keep venting and nothing changes.  I am just cementing into place my own feelings of resentment and hurt.   

You have choices and options,  you can confront him, you can leave for Christmas,  you can open a separate bank account to handle financial issues in the future, you can work to end the unhealthy family enmeshment you describe and protect yourself from it.

which direction would you like to go in?

'ducks

Well, this is my only place to "vent" other than therapy. Over the years with BPDh, I've read so many books, tried so many different things, but no matter how I change MY interaction with him, or how I respond, or even try to change how I view the situation, I have trouble not being hurt by some of his choices. I don't stay bogged down in the hurt, and my rebound rate, and not carrying resentment is MUCH better than it used to be, but it does still hurt and frustrate me in the moment. I think I'd have to be less than human for it to not bother me to some extent. I don't want to deaden my feelings, because I think feelings are a natural thing, and can even protect us.

Of course I realize I have options, it's just the classic catch 22 with BPD. None of them feel "good". I try to be happy wherever I am, whatever I'm doing, but it still doesn't take away the fact that this was not what I signed on for, and things do seem stuck. I bend, I give, I compromise, I put the marriage first, but for what?

I'm better at self care now, but even with that, I sort of resent that I have to meet most of my own needs, and really don't rely on BPDh for much of anything. I never wanted such a shallow, one sided marriage.

I guess I'm too close to see the answer right now. I'll be like Scarlett O' Hara, and I'll think about it tomorrow. Or at least after Christmas.  lol

Wherever you are at, is where you are. Not making a decision is a choice as well.

There are pros and cons to venting. I think everyone could probably use a good vent once in a while. However, only venting can keep people stuck.

In the 12 step groups - my sponsor did not let me stay in venting. Venting was a starting point. By venting, I could describe what was bothering me. Then, my sponsor could turn the mirror on to me, show me my part in it, and the discussion on how I could change began.

It's a different process from venting to a sympathetic person. In fact, once one sees it this way, it is hard to let a friend vent, because it isn't in the friend's best interest to do so. Part of dealing with being co-dependent for me was to learn to not err on the side of comfort when it isn't in the friend's best interest.

It isn't comfortable to have someone do this, but I am grateful that I had a sponsor who cared enough about me to not let me vent only. It was frustrating, and sometimes it made me angry. But her motive was not to help me feel good but to allow me to feel the discomfort of my choices which then motivated me to change.

It is your choice to vent only, but this, in a way, makes this board a third party in the relationship between you and your H and so becomes part of the drama triangle. Your H aggravates you, you are aggravated and vent here, you feel better and the relationship continues as is. This makes us an enabler of the dysfunction in your relationship.

The choices are yours to make, and how you use this board is also yours to make.

Hi CB,

here is a link on Venting and Triangulation, www.sowhatireallymeant.com/articles/conflict/venting-and-triangulation/

Notwendy and Babyducks both bring it to your attention and MayBeSo has addressed this with you in past threads.

It is important that when we respond to you that we don't enable you to continue with 'just venting' otherwise we then become part of the triangle, perhaps in the rescuing role with you as perpetual victim. It is important that we challenge you about this dynamic because if we don't we end up colluding with you about the issues you bring here.

Maybe in the New Year have a look through the lessons again particularly 'Boundaries' and 'Your Role in the Relationship.'

CB, you sound so pained and frustrated due maybe to a pervasive sense of powerlessness with your husband.

What can you actually do to help you feel some control over what you do have control over?

i hate feeling powerless, too. You cant make him stop, so what dyou do?

That's just it. I've tried such a myriad number of things, some work to a small degree, but they all have some side effect that I don't like. I feel I've already tried so many things, and am almost back to square one. I look back, and I always had a "plan", I was always focused on the tools, and if one plan didn't work, I'd try another. I guess I feel I've tried all the "plans" I can think of. I've read tons of books, used the tools on this site, gone back to therapy, and tried to no longer be co dependent. I try hard not to step into care taker role. Also, it would be nice, but I NEVER feel better after I vent. In fact, I think I vent in hopes that I get some advice, or that someone else hears what I write, and has a similar situation, and tried "this" or "I did this, and it helped". I'm all about if one thing doesn't work, try another. Change the variable. I just can't think of any more to try right now.

I guess I'm lost as to where to go from HERE. I feel the lines are clearly drawn, and me changing the line(as in my actions/reactions, and having better boundaries), just never achieved enough change or lessened the negatives, to make it feel comfortable for me. I feel even when I'm really doing things that make ME feel good, it's almost like I'm living single, as he's just content to have almost zero relationship. It really has me questioning why I'm here.

I want to stay. I want us to work out, but I also want us to both be happy. I'm not unhappy, but I am frustrated, and I do often end up hurt by BPDh's thoughtless, narcissistic behaviors. Even having low to zero expectations, he still manages to do things I certainly wouldn't tolerate from a friend. If he was a friend, I'd have written him off long ago.

And I'm sad because for the first time, I can't see what "I" can do to make MY life better at this point. I DO feel powerless because all my efforts to be happy seem to ramp up his behaviors, or end up making me feel like I'm happy, but it has nothing to do with him. If he isn't in any way contributing to why I'm happy, why am I with him? I want to stay, and I plan to stay, but I always know my "staying" is tenuous, with his threats. I don't need him to make me happy, I'm quite capable of making myself happy, but it just seems weird to me to be with someone who doesn't need much of a connection with me.

I think at this point, BPDh and I both know my boundaries pretty well. It seems he mostly tests any new ones that come up, but that hasn't been a huge issue lately. I feel there is a huge communication issue, and I'm hoping we can address it in MC. But as you all know, MC can be a risk with someone with BPD, and he has a history of triangulating therapists. I think we both really know what we want out of MC this time around: to learn to communicate better with each other.

I'll read that link again when I get the chance.

Well it sucks to be up in the middle of the night feeling awful on Christmas. Can verify that.

I think you should stop working on the marriage. I don't think you should leave, but I really think ignoring the man and going and finding some new and interesting thing to focus on for an extended period of time would help.

See, he isn't trying. You are doing all of the work for him, buzzing around him, paying attention, getting your buttons pushed. All that attention he is getting. He is drinking your milkshake.

Just stop. You are doing all of the work, so he is sitting back, thinking he has soo much "currency" in the situation, he can blow it anyway he likes. He's over drawing the bank, YOUR account and blowing it like it doesn't matter. Hey, it's CB's account, his is all nice and fat and SAFE because he doesn't have to spend it. He's a freeloader.

I am not hating on him. It's what he is doing because he can.

Only you can stop it.

I asked what you are doing. Not for the marriage. For you.

I've been a lot more conscious of taking care of ME since we reconciled. I haven't gotten into such a low state as I was in a couple years ago, when I actually felt suicidal due to all this, nor have I felt as sad or depressed as I did right before he walked out last year. I decided that I was never handing him that much power over my feelings, ever again. When deciding if we should reconcile, I had to decide if I could keep myself steady, and keep myself grounded. I've mostly been able to, but parts of dealing/living with the highs and lows, and constant drama, is still tiring. It wouldn't be reasonable to think I'd never feel hurt, but I do rebound much faster now.

I do a lot of things that make ME feel good. I cook, I spend time with my kids, I focus on hobbies. I am in therapy, which helps a lot. I don't need BPDh to make me happy, but I do want him in my life. I just wish he'd stop being such a negative downer, and he'd focus on HIM rather than me. His answer to his troubles seems to be trying to blame me, or get me to modify myself.

Also, when I do things I like, I think he doesn't like it. He always wants me to entertain him, or being doing an activity with him, and I don't always want to. Sometimes I just want to relax, or sit and talk. I know what I like, and what makes me happy. Being able to do those things with BPDh can be a challenge though.

I mostly do these things while he's at work. If I'm not "available" after work, he'll get mad and withdraw. He may want nothing to do with me, but he just wants me there "in case". This is the weirdest relationship of my life... .

I guess I need to stop worrying or trying to be there, and I need to just let the chips fall where they may? If I take a cooking class, and it's for when he will be home, he'll just have to learn to deal? I've spent far too much time trying to connect with him, and him shutting me out. I can't continue to do all the heavy lifting, while he sits in his resentment stew he's always brewing.

I guess I just have to really focus on me, and do my best to stop worrying about what his reaction will be to that? I fear divorce threats, as I do really want to stay married to him, but I can't control what he chooses to do?

I fear divorce threats, as I do really want to stay married to him, but I can't control what he chooses to do?


I addressed that fear on the other thread. Try to separate the two. I know you don't want to leave him. However, too much fear can result in dysfunctional behavior.

Perhaps you feel the fear isn't the problem, but something is and perhaps it is fear or something else. To take a look at just the behaviors, all behaviors happen for a reason- with anyone, with BPD, without BPD. The idea is functional behavioral analysis if you wish to look it up. In general, all human behavior has a payoff and also a cost. The behavior will continue as long as - to the person who behaves in that manner- the payoff is greater than the cost. This may not make sense to anyone else. In some instances, like addiction, the cost of the behavior can be quite high- loss of income, relationships, but the behavior continues as long as to that individual, the payoff is worth it.

People with dysfunctional ( high cost) behaviors can often attach to an enabler. What the enabler does is lower the cost of the behavior to that person. The enabler can lessen the dysfunctional person's emotional pain of their behavior through soothing, affection, sex, money, bailing them out, rescuing.

The enabler may feel their own distress at the situation, however, the personal cost to the enabler is often less than the payoff of the enabling behavior. So long as this is happening, the enabling continues.

Many of us here are enablers. I know I am. I was raised to be one to BPD mom. I didn't know any other way to interact with someone I cared about. But at one point, I was not happy with my behavior and that was an incentive to change.

I get your fear, because all of us have it. When we make a change in the balance of the relationship, the other person has to either deal with it--- or not. We take a risk of either decision- they will stay and adjust, or they will leave to find another enabler.

We have choices too. One is to do a lot of personal work to change ourselves and hope our SO's stay with us and adjust. However, we can not control their choices. We could leave the relationship or stay. Those of us choosing to stay are on this board- but our choosing to stay doesn't mean our SO's will. Or we can stay, continue the behaviors and behavior patterns in our relationship as they are- using our own ways of coping with them- venting, our own activities, because the payoff of not rocking the boat is that we feel that we feel more secure with our SO's- we feel a benefit in some way.

I think it comes to this CB- do you choose to change and rock the boat? Or keep the boat as steady as possible?

Well, that's just it. I think I'm always changing and growing. It's why I read books, it's why I'm in therapy, and it's why I modify behaviors. I think everyone should be trying to "grow" or learn their entire lives. Especially if there is dysfunction somewhere. My struggles are OCD, anxiety, and I've definitely been codependent. I actually come from a really good FOO, and my parents have been married well over 60 years.

I think the more I "change", even though it's for the better, BPDh doesn't like it. He sees it as me being healthy, and he'd rather run me down, or say I haven't changed at all. He's pretty abusive that way. But, I don't change to garner HIS approval, it's something I do for ME.

I don't know how to not rock the boat, and even breathing seems to do that. He likes chaos, and when there isn't any, he creates it. The only times things have been "steady" somewhat was recently when he was scared over losing his job, and he felt he needed my support and empathy. Now that he thinks he has that figured out, he's back to painting me black. What's sad, is I'm sure he DOES NOT have the job thing figured out, and he'll likely lose his job in a few months.

My version of not rocking the boat is to not help him in the job issue, or to bring it up. If he asks for help, I'd give it, but I can't rush in with ideas, or hold him accountable anymore. He needs to meet the consequences of his own actions and inaction.

He has an idealized version of what marriage should be, and he pretty much ran it by me again today: He wants me to keep my feelings to myself, give him anal sex(he enjoys hurting me), give him blow jobs, and mix it up sexually(which is hilarious as he's a one trick pony, at best). I'm unwilling to do anal again after he hurt me, and if he wants sex, he can approach me with kindness, and not just demand sex.

I'm working on not being a rescuer, caretaker, or being codependent. He does use guilt, and I am susceptible to this, so I work on that. My T is good at keeping me accountable, and seeing things in a healthy way. I wasn't raised around anyone with a PD, so this is all new to me. I am just trying to be the calm one in the storm, and not lose myself this time around. I'm trying to get and stay healthy.

You are right, I may become someone he doesn't want to be with if I stop enabling to a large degree. He's used to controlling me, and he's used to getting his own way. He's narcissistic, and he's a bully. I think some of this stuff I'm getting might be extinction bursts, or him just getting used to the fact that this time around, he's not making me absolutely miserable(this seemed to feed his ego), and I'm not suicidal or taking all the blame anymore.

I guess if he leaves, he'd be looking for another enabler, as you said. It's probably in my nature to not rock the boat, but with BPDh, that just seems to be an impossibility anyway... .

If you have been growing and changing your behavior so that you are less codependent then it is possible that his discomfort is increasing since you are not taking away that for him. Good- because only when the cost of his behavior is felt by him and he decides that it is higher than the payoff - only then will he be motivated to change - and that is a risk you accept because h may change for the better or find another enabler.

The other risk is that you grow out of the relationship and the payoff for you is not as great as the cost.

Changing what we know is a risk. The unknown is scary. But if we are not happy with the way things are, then we either keep doing more of the same to avoid the risk or we try changing.

Our boundaries are ours- not for others to judge. You have a physical boundary and you have that right : you don't want to do something that hurts. I personally think not doing painful things is a good boundary. Others may disagree or like doing those things but this is your boundary. However, your H wants what he wants and you have a dilemma.

For a boundary to be a boundary, it has to be defended strongly. If your H can get you to back down by threatening divorce and that works for him- then he can use your fear to get what he wants. If you act on that fear to back down - you violate your own boundary.

I think it is important to state a boundary like that- which gives your H a choice. First - he may test the boundary- which is a likely thing to do- by threatening, withdrawing and other things that may play on your fears (if physical abuse is a concern then a safety plan - or even not a statement or confrontation may be necessary) . His other choice is that if he really wants to do this - then he needs to find someone to do it with. If this violates another boundary then this may put the marriage on the line.

If he has any investment in your marriage - then he will have his own struggle with that choice. However, so long as he can use your fear of losing the marriage to get what he wants- then he does not have to face his own fears of losing you. As long as he knows that you will respond to his threats- he doesn't have to face his own fear.

This does not mean you threaten leaving or even imply it. This is not what you want. But when you uphold a boundary - he is left with his own choices to make. Your boundary is your body. You will not do anal sex. He then is left with choices. They may be scary to you, but without the key to your fear, he may have to deal with his own choices

Another choice he has is to decide he wants you and that what you do together is important that you are both willing to do it.

He may want to blame you for not giving him what he wants. I think it's important to not judge him. He wants what he wants, but he can't do it with you.

Leaving the choice to him means he owns that choice and the consequence. He may agree and then bring it up, but the answer can be "I love you honey but I do not want to do that".

No JADE, no drama. If this is your truth, then it is.

Ceruleanblue,



Everyone needs to feel a success once and a while.   An achievement.   An accomplishment.  No one, no matter how dedicated, how committed, how loyal can do something day in and day out and reap no rewards without it destroying their soul.   I believe you have tried so many things.  I believe you have given it you very all.


Obviously I am just some lines of text on a screen from the other end of the internet.   I don't really know you.   And yet as I sit here and turn your words over and over in my head, just as I am sure Notwendy and Daniell85 and sweetheart have, I can not find any perspective from which to advocate that this should be enough.    That what you seem to be describing so eloquently to us is unrelenting toil, with no relief from the stress,  and only a little personal satisfaction. 


I don't think any one can say which is the best way to go from here.   It does appear that HERE is not a good place to linger.   Very likely there will be no perfect or pain free solution.   Very likely it require yet undiscovered resources of courage.   I think you have it in you.   


Who was it that said that the more we take responsibility for our past and present the more we are able to create the future we seek?   Some one smarter than me for sure.    My happiness is my responsibility.   Life is short.    I want to look forward to my future.   


For me,  what I see, is that at some level you have a realization.   Perhaps it's not fully formed.   


I think this is your best question.    My two cents, for what they are worth is, less about him,   less effort, less energy.   More for Ceruleanblue.   More energy, More care, more concern.   

babyducks

Until you are willing to pull the pin for real, and it becomes obviously so to the pwBPD, this type of brinkmanship will continue.

That is the ultimate boundary, sometimes I believe they are subconsciously searching to find out just where that boundary lays.

Trying to take on more empathy than is reasonable hides that boundary from view, so they keep digging.

Boundaries define structure, pwBPD need structure and they need others to provide it

I find that whenever I have a vent I always try to end it with a proposed solution, even if it doesn''t fix it, it does turn the mindset around relieving the feeling of hopelessness.

Do you feel as though you have reached a status quo of what you are familiar with, and to make a drastic step in either direction is just too much of a call? That is still ok, as it is a choice.  Owning it as a choice makes these difficulties a case of eyerolling rather than outright emotional damage.

Feed the sense of accepting your choices rather than heeling to the consequencies. Find and feed your nugget of value within what you have, you may have to prise it out of the dirt, but it must be there somewhere, as something is drawing you, but you are too focused on the dirt to see it.

My take on it is, anal sex is excruciating for me, and I was left bleeding and hurting for days afterwards. I used to do it, just to please him, and because HIS needs are important to me. Well, after all the abuse started, and I came to see the continued pattern of him not caring about my feelings, had no respect for me as a person, and I generally feared he could be APD, I just stopped wanting to do it just to please him. I saw that it came at too high a cost to ME.

I would not want to coerce or guilt someone into doing something for me, if I knew it was extremely painful for them. I think most healthy people wouldn't. Now, I realize it's okay for him to enjoy anal, and for him to have preferences, but we don't get to act out every fantasy, and life and our partners sometimes have limitations, both mentally and physically. It's like he can't quite take that into account. I mean, basic respect is hard for him, so why would sex be any different.

I do think this is a boundary, but if BPDh changes, and becomes more respectful, more loving, I'd maybe be willing to change my stance, down the road. I try to be flexible in my dealings with him, but for now, I'm upholding this boundary.

It just seems so silly that I'm having to have a boundary in regard to anal sex. It's laughable to me really. I mean, in a loving, healthy relationship, he'd be understanding of my pain, and I'd be willing to meet his need(and endure the pain) occasionally. That isn't the relationship we have though, and I do not want to further enforce his desire to dominate and hurt me. Just like rape isn't about just sex, I don't think this anal sex thing is about just sex either. I've always felt it was a need to dominate, hurt and control me.

Right now he's saying he wants to work on us, and wants things to be better, but just last night he was threatening to throw me out. Years ago, that would have devastated me, but I actually dealt with it pretty well last night.

My focus for now is to continue in therapy, sustain my boundaries, and lots of self focus. All his emotional chaos, with his kids, and his job crises, has been a drain on me, especially as I've been sick. My resolve is to rise above all this, and he's going to have to deal as best he can. I'll be as kind as always, but I can't keep letting him be a drain on me emotionally.

I need some sort of a mantra to say in my head to remind me that I don't need to run to his rescue, desire respect he won't give, or otherwise stay out of the drama... .

Open to ideas for a cool, uplifting MANTRA

I can share a few:

Love doesn't hurt ( this is from a woman's shelter)

Not my circus, not my monkeys ( staying out of other people's drama)

Just because I get an invitation to the crazy party does not mean I have to accept (not taking the bait to an argument )

My feedback on your anal boundary is that it is weak and contingent on his behavior ( well if he was nicer to me then I'd tolerate pain and bleeding for him)

Since when does love make it OK to tolerate pain and bleeding? Now some people are OK with doing anal, but that is their choice. It hurts you and he is with you. You said it - if someone loves somebody then that love would not be expressed through a sexual act that causes them pain and bleeding.

For this to be a boundary it has to be only about you- not contingent on him - for he will sense that weakness. He is likely to test it anyway and a weak boundary is not easily upheld.

Do you love yourself enough to say "I am worth not letting anyone cause me pain and bleeding under any circumstance and not anyone is worth that because I am worth protecting?

Just to be clear, the crazy party means me- if I jump into the argument, triangle, and or JADE, then I am acting crazy.

Same with circus and monkeys. I have my own circus and monkeys (stuff I need to work on) - don't need to be trying to fix someone else's.


I think Waveriders post is worth reading. Standing firm on boundaries means firm. It means being willing to risk his threats and his act on them. However, if the threats cause you to comply, then he isn't left with the choice of acting on them. He gets to make them, without consequence.

What would he do if he had to face the decision to act on his threat? You don't know, because he doesn't have to.  His threats work for him just the way he wants them to. Why should he stop?

Yes, I get what you are saying, but here is where I get stuck on that. ALL my other boundaries, I can look at as protecting me. This sexual one though, especially after some responses I got off a previous blog, made me feel I wasn't meeting his needs, and I'm always big on compromise. For some reason, because it's sex, and I know what sex means to men, I feel like it's part of being a "good wife" to meet his sexual needs.

I'd LOVE to just feel as firm on this boundary as I feel about my others, it's just hard because he does use guilt, and I can't negate that it's something he really desires.

But I do agree, that love/sex shouldn't be excruciating. I have a pretty good pain tolerance, but for me, anal is on par with childbirth. I think a lot of the turn on IS about hurting me, and I DO NOT want to reinforce that I think that is okay. Maybe I just have to look at it from that angle? If it was solely about it being "taboo", or the naughty factor, that would be easier for me to accept(but still not a reason for me to do it), but I truly feel he enjoys inflicting pain upon me. I do see that I there is some manipulation, as he's told me it's something his ex had no problems with. He knows that's a sore spot for me, being compared to his ex. It almost feels like a threat? I guess I just have to stand firm, and honor myself, and he'll do with it what he will. I can't keep compromising, or in this case, being hurt, just to avoid divorce or cheating threats!

I like those ideas for Mantras. I'll probably use a combo of all three, depending on the circumstances.

One boundary, I was able to keep was in regards to my car, and FINALLY, BPDh is going to get his own car. I guess at his job they felt it was reflection on him, not having a car(which I'd warned him about). He spent the insurance payoff, and refused to get a car that wasn't an expensive sports car. So now, he's taking out a loan we can't afford, and getting his sports car, right at a time he might get fired. Time for my new Mantra: Not my circus, not my monkeys.

He's the one going to be on the car loan, and talking to him about it would be a waste of time, and would probably lead to him being angry. I'm learning.

I agree, Waverider had some really good points, as always.

Yes, I get what you are saying, but here is where I get stuck on that. ALL my other boundaries, I can look at as protecting me. This sexual one though, especially after some responses I got off a previous blog, made me feel I wasn't meeting his needs, and I'm always big on compromise. For some reason, because it's sex, and I know what sex means to men, I feel like it's part of being a "good wife" to meet his sexual needs.

Boundaries are personal and they are yours. Another blog may not apply to you. We all have sexual boundaries. Sure, I think meeting a spouses needs is something we can strive for, but what if those needs include violating a boundary? There are all kinds of sexual preferences and without making judgments on any of them, some I would do and some I wouldn't. I can be up front about them. I can also leave the other person the choice- be with me and be happy with what I am willing to do, or make another choice.

We all have limits. It may be that we can meet some of our partner's sexual wishes but possibly not all of them. A person can choose that they will be happy with their spouse or be unhappy with what they don't have. Some people are not happy with anything because they are just not happy, but that is their choice to make.

Yes, sex means something to men, and women, but in marriage, sex is about two people. He isn't just having sex with you. You are his wife- a person who he should cherish and protect and I don't see where pain and bleeding fit into that. But looking for being cherished and protected by him does not make sense if you can not give this to yourself first. It may not happen with him, but it can happen from you.

Besides, when you did it with him, what was the result of that. Was this the magic thing that fixed the marriage? Was he finally saying yes, you are the one, you made me happy, this is it? Or was it more of the same. Is he looking at you to satisfy some issue that is about him, not you, and because of that, you can't do it for him. He wants something, or thinks he does, then gets it, and is still unhappy? Only he can decide to be happy or not.


WW said it because, well it comes down to that. We choose to stay but whoever is with us also has a choice. We have to allow them to make their own choices and deal with the consequences of them.

Hi Ceruleanblue 

You have some really good, balanced advice here from Notwendy, waverider, babyducks and several more posters. Please read all these messages again- there is a lot of love and concern for your well being in there. I would really like to hear you have the same feelings for yourself 

I am not in a relationship with a pwBPD, and I do understand that this presents you with challenges that I do not have in my marriage. But I am a married woman with an active sex life, so I hope you don't mind if I throw my two cents in.

Sex is great with someone you love but you have to be able to trust that they aren't going to hurt you on purpose. How on earth can you relax and get anything out of the experience when that is the elephant in the room? Sex adds so much to the relationship when it is a mutually enjoyable experience. The things you do together should feel good for BOTH of you. Anal is fine if BOTH partners enjoy it. Your mindset about doing something that you not only don't enjoy, but causes you pain and bleeding worries me very much.

Please do not feel guilty for feeling there should be a boundary to protect you. You keep mentioning meeting his needs. Obligation of a wife to fulfill her husbands sexual needs. That only means that you shouldn't withhold sex as currency to control him. That sex is an important component of the relationship. But its important because it is a bonding experience- him getting his jollies by abusing you is not what that means.

Physical damage aside- how much emotional damage is done to you if you allow him to hurt you and just use your body with no tenderness or interest in your experience? What does feeling like HIS needs should be met by hurting you really mean about your self value? You are not a sex toy created for his selfish use. Order him something on amazon that will fulfill those needs and next time he mentions anal say here- have a blast.

I'm sorry if I went on too long, but you sound like a really sweet person and I am concerned about you.

One more thing-

I get what you are saying about maybe letting him do it if down the road his behavior improves. I think most of us like to give our partner a "treat" once in a while. But this, in my opinion, falls under something that they like that maybe isn't our favorite. I would not consider allowing him to hurt you, something you cannot tolerate, as in that category.

Just my two cents  :)

pwBPD are very good at upselling "wants" as "needs". We are often confused about our own, a disordered mind often simply equates the two.

Your "needs" in intimacy are to feel safe, comfortable and appreciated. "Wants" are just options to consider and should not compromise needs.

Waverider:  I'm glad you posted that about "wants" verses "needs". I'd never really thought about that. I've been so busy trying to meet what he calls his "needs", yet never considering that there is a difference between the two.

DaughterMom: Yes, I think I sort of considered the couple occasions that I gave in to his desire for anal, I thought of it as a "treat" for him. I just told myself that I could endure it, and do this in order to make him happy. I later came to realize thought that his "treat" or desires shouldn't come at such a high cost to me(ieain). I always felt that "I" matter, but I also always feel I'm pretty dang tough. Well, just because you are tough, doesn't mean you willingly endure pain. At least that's what I finally decided.

And yes, I am seeing that he may view this sexual act as a "need", but it isn't actually a "need", it's a "want". I mean, we all want a lot of things that just aren't within or means, or that are unattainable, and we have to come to terms with that. I certainly don't count on him to meet all my needs or wants, sexually or otherwise, and I live with that, and manage to be happy.

I'm feeling a lot better in regards to upholding this boundary now, and I'm pretty sure that when he tries to guilt me about it as he did yesterday, I'm going to be prepared. He can "want" something all he wants, but is he willing to cheat to get it? I guess only time will tell, and I'll deal with that if and when it happens. I really don't think he'd cheat just to get that... .

I appreciate these responses because at one point my H painted me black for reasons I don't quite understand but I think it was triggered by nausea of pregnancy which temporarily took oral sex off the table. Somehow wife puking was interpreted as rejection and a temporary situation became "never". Then it evolved to him being bitterly disappointed in the fact that he didn't get all the other things he may have wondered about from seeing porn and lamenting that his sex life was over since he married me.

He has changed his feelings since. I  don't quite know why except that I hit bottom from codependency- but these events took a toll on my self esteem. We have been married for decades now. I have been faithful to him, stayed in good shape for my age and others say I am attractive. Still the experience of my H not being happy with me was hurtful and I didn't feel secure about myself.

I also did not want to be the one who was to blame for my H not having a happy sex life. I agree that it is important to a marriage. I didn't want to do this to me and I didn't want to do this to him. If he really could not be happy with what I was willing to do -then it seemed kinder to me to give him the choice of finding someone else who did want to do them.

He used to say things like "other women want to do this" well that is them but I am me. I know this is the staying board and maybe this isn't the right thing to do but it was all I could do at the time. I told him my boundaries and that if he truly could not live with that then he needed to make a decision about staying with me.  I didn't want to hear that I wasn't enough for him.

He says he is happy with me and doesn't complain. I am slowly getting over the hurt from that and it isn't easy. I'm a loyal person who only wanted one man in my life to love and cherish and I was happy with our sex life. I believed that two people would work it out together, but we are human and would have personal boundaries and preferences. I think he expected that marriage meant anything and everything when he wanted it no matter what . However humans aren't always available toys. He can get one of those on Amazon but they don't sell loving wives.

I'd respectfully suggest it isn't about sex or anal at all. You could let him abuse you anally whenever he wanted and he'd still be unhappy. He would just find another way to blame you. My boyfriend is a master at shifting this way, always changing what he "needs" to something I haven't given him... .even if it the exact opposite of what he wanted last week :)

I've been the victim of sexual assaults, and honestly, to me that sounds like assault. It is traumatic to have someone violate you: violate your trust and need for tenderness and need to feel safe. It isn't about sex at all. He is using his penis to hurt you the same way he might use his fist. It's sad he gets his jollies that way but you don't have to let him.

There are things I enjoy sexually my boyfriend doesn't enjoy. So sometimes I fantasize we are doing those things while we are doing the things we both like. Problem solved. Don't buy into the idea that his happiness is contingent on you accepting abuse.

During those tough years I was very confused. I knew nothing about BPD or how my FOO issues would impact my marriage. I was codependent and had poor boundaries. To be fair, I would say my H does not have BPD but he had enough traits to match my codependent behaviors and pull us both into the conflict and drama that goes with it.

So I read books on marriage from all different perspectives. I recall that CB is a Christian. One book that stood out to me was Dr. Dobson "Love Must Be Tough". It does not address BPD but it does address boundaries and and upholding them from both an ethical and a professional perspective. Ethics are important to me, so in a way, this book felt like permission to stand up for myself- something I didn't think I could do having not been allowed to do that in my FOO. So perhaps it will be helpful to you.

Hmmm, I think I may have that Dr. Dobson book around here somewhere. I haven't read it, but I'll see if I can find it. I really like Dr. Dobson's books, and I LOVE John Gottman's books on marriage. They don't deal with PD's, but they really are great books about how to have a good marriage.

I do agree that BPDh does shift focus on what will make him "happy" at the moment. I think he's always had the same sexual preferences, but sometimes he'll focus on his happiness being tied to sex, but other times it's a hobby he wants ME to throw myself into. or something else. One time it was "just apologize to my kids", and it will fix everything(of course it didn't, and I still wish I hadn't apologized when I hadn't done anything wrong). Gone are the days where I just do things to meet his unattainable "happiness". For a while, when we were separated, he wanted sex with an Asian woman, to have a threesome, and a lot of other things, I just so wasn't okay with. I'm GLAD I didn't do a threesome, or just tell him I was cool with him having sex with an Asian woman. I get the feeling that he was trying to fill a need, not that these were actual desires. He did rush right out after he left me, and have sex with someone he'd never have gotten into a relationship with(which says to me that he was acting out). It's just like he gets into huge depressions, or blocks of time where he feels the need to act out.

I feel he isn't happy, because he doesn't want to be happy, and he does things to ensure he won't be. I believe to some degree, our happiness is a conscious choice, or at least takes effort. We can't be negative, and keep thinking unhappy thoughts, and feel happy. I think our inner dialogue goes a long way towards how we feel. If he really wanted to be happy, he'd work on it, or take some appropriate steps.

BPDh doesn't do some of the things I enjoy sexually either, but I don't dwell on it, and I try to be grateful for what we do have.

I don't think I have trouble standing up for myself, per se, it's just more that I'm susceptible to guilt trips, and I want to please. I just have to remember that I have to do what pleases me also. I can't always put everyone else's happiness above my own. In the past, that's also led me to feel resentful too, so that is another good reason to stand up for myself, and to not back down, when guilt gets applied. lol

CB, when I read your posts, I often wonder what you would counsel your daughter if she was in a relationship like yours with your husband. Would you want her to tolerate physical and emotional pain just to try to keep the marriage alive? What would you tell her to do about unkind adult stepchildren? If she had to give up living with your grandchild to keep the marriage afloat what would you tell her? What if her husband chose not to give her a Christmas present and put the family's finances in jeopardy though loans to his relatives?

I don't think you're taking good care of you. Also you are modeling this behavior to your daughter, who might soon find a spouse. Is this what you want for her future?

Some peoples "needs" (wants) are whatever lies on the other side of the boundary. Wherever you place a boundary then that defines their goals which can only be fulfilled by defeating that boundary.

It's that co dependent guilt. You took lots of steps to fix things. He raises the bar, you have tried harder.

This has conditioned you. Fighting that impulse seems counter intuitive. I have been there, too. I know what it's like. The only cure I ever found, the only peace is to examine your boundaries and redirect your energies.

Your are not responsible for keeping him happy. HE is responsible for keeping him happy. Those boundaries can be hard things to integrate.

Cat and waverider are making some really important points. You are getting lost in this, along with your child, your self worth, your money and your cats!

You have a right to be who you are, have the things that are yours, to define and enforce what is yours and what isn't yours. No guilt for it! 

I'm going to comment on this b/c it is concerning.

Are you saying that your goal is to stay married  to a man who likes to see you in pain?  

It's okay if you do, but of course we have to ask why?  Why is staying married a priority under the conditions you are describing?

CB, there are lots of folks who like anal sex.  Lot's who don't.

Those who do like it, perform it with loving partners who take great care to make sure it is pleasurable and safe.  There is no shocking off the charts pain, there's no tearing, there's no bleeding. This is not a requirement of having anal sex.  There is NO reasons for any kind of sex, anal or otherwise, to be the way you describe this.  

There are actual books and articles on how to have anal sex safely, and enjoyably, and the reason some recipients agree to it is b/c they are with a safe partner, who takes all the time and skill in the world needed to make it a good experience for BOTH people, not just the man who is "on top".  Many woman report having the strongest orgasms of their life with this kind of sex, it does not have to be excruciating or damaging.  It is only that way if it's being done BADLY or if someone is doing something they really don't want to do and can't relax.  They ought not be there then.  There is NO reason, no reason at all to submit to painful or unsafe sex of any kind, unless you want to and are choosing that for some reason.  

Yes any sexual encounter can accidently cause some pain, and unskilled partners sometimes make mistakes, but not much and usually not more than once!  Both people are responsible to only have sex that works for them, BOTH people are charged with taking responsible for themselves when it comes to sex. In communities that really are into this practice, they are very serious about safety and skill AND all sex positive literature reinforces personal responsibility as a MUST for any kind of sex.  There is NO reason for someone to be in pain, bleeding, or torn.

Lots of folks just don't like it at all, never tried it, and never will.  That is PERFECTLY OKAY. Your body is your body.  It does not belong to your mate or anyone else.  Period.  If you act as though you can't have that kind of boundary with your H or ANYONE, you are heading into a very dark area, and you need to really consider what fears are driving you to abandon yourself this way.  And deal with YOUR fears once and for all.  When you say "he will get mad, he isn't happy when I do or say xyz, he will threaten divorce... "  you are focusing on him and being held hostage.  What are you afraid of?  That he will get mad?  That you will loose him?  Of course, the irony is... .he sounds so awful based on your description... .it's hard to understand what you are so worried about possibly losing if he followed through on  the divorce threat that keeps you so fearful?    If he is abusive when he has bad feelings, then THAT has to be dealt with by YOU making some real tuff personal decisions for yourself... .the answers lie with you, CB, not him.  

What are you so afraid of?  :)ivorce?  Loss?  If you fear these things and let those fears control you... you are MORE likely to both suffer and have a divorce and loss.  

CB, is it at all possible that this is a lack of skill or ignorance on his part? There are sex acts that require technique and patience and skill.  This is your life and your soul and your body.  If it's a lack of skill or ignorance, then both of you need to become educated so it's better and reach some agreements about what is happening in the bedroom.  

Or, are you really sure he wants to do this in a way that is painful for you... .?  Has he said as much?  :)o you talk with him about your experience?  :)o you tell him what your needs are?   (pain is NOT required if it's done right and with skill).

If it's the later, CB, and he really does just enjoy hurting you... .are you still saying you want to say married to him and avoid divorce at all cost?  Why?  What are you getting by staying with this as described?

You need to really take a good look at YOUR choices and not vent so much about him.  Use this board to explore what is really driving your choices, and stop the focus on him.  You are with him, this man that you say enjoys seeing you in pain... .you are the focus b/c you are choosing this.   This is about you on a very, very basic level, and not about him.  You are the only person who can take care of yourself and meet your own needs, really.  If you put yourself through experiences that are painful or damaging with a person whose intent is to seek enjoyment from your pain, you are not taking care of yourself.  It is your responsibility to take care of yourself.  Is there something driving you to be in a masochistic role with him?  Was this a pattern in your family?  :)o you need the two of you to be in these roles?  "He's bad, I'm the long suffering good wife that will do anything, even bleed, to appease him or make him happy."  :)id you see someone in a totally subservient role growing up?  

If  fear is driving you... .deal with your fear.  That is crucial to have a safe and meaningful life, we all have to face and deal with our fears.  :)ivorce, death, loss.  You cannot escape these painful existential experiences in life entirely.  

You keep saying he wants you to be in pain or enjoys it.  Why is it okay for you to stay married to a man who you describe this way? Are you okay staying with a man who enjoys seeing you bleeding and in pain?  

I'm harping on the this not b/c it's a provocative sexual issue, but b/c this sexual issue is so incredibly emblematic of the nature of the relationship you are choosing to participate in and keep describing on this board.  

Do you see your role here?  Many, many people would feel anxious and uncomfortable about it... .but they would just say no anyway if they didn't like it or felt unsafe... .either from the get-go or at the first hint that this partner is not interested in your safe experience.  Saying no... .IS HEALTHY.  In fact, it's the only way you stand a snow ball chance in hell to have a healthy relationship with him, or anyone.    No matter how much you love someone, no matter how much you really don't want a divorce, YOUR responsibility is to say no if you need to say no.  No can include only doing something if it's demonstrated that your safety and enjoyment are a priority.   That is your job.  

Otherwise YOU ARE ALSO contributing to a dysfunctional, unhealthy relationship.  It is scary to say no and to stand up for yourself, but you must, it is part of being human. It is a requirement of a decent relationship.

That's another thing about venting... .it is really hard often for the listener/reader to get a grip on what is really going on from a person's venting.   One moment it's like WOW this is serious, horrible, really bad ... .But once the listener gives serious feedback that matches the vent being told... .it forces the ventor to look at what they are presenting... .and often the ventor  starts to back away and backs-off on the narrative and re-creates the narrative to be much less dramatic, or starts to makes excuses, or starts to find ways to tell the listener how it's not all that bad, even though they are the one who rang the emergency alarm!  

The advice you are getting on this board about venting is spot-on.  SPOT ON.  

Venting is for the occasional annoying in-law, or the tooth brush being left on the counter.  

The things you are bringing forth here are very, very serious, and they require more than just venting, indeed, venting is really at some point counterproductive and PART of the problem.  

 

I'm in agreement with what Maybe So wrote.   For me this is fundamentally an issue of respect.    Mutual and self respect.   

Well, my Mom was rather subservient to my Dad, in some ways, but I actually think it's more my Christian upbringing, and the fact that I want to be a "good wife". I know everyone has differing views of what that is, but I feel both partners need to contribute towards that. I realized anal sex doesn't hurt all people, but it does me. And yes, he does enjoy hurting me, as he and I have had several conversations about it. He would deny enjoying inflicting pain, but he always says pain and pleasure are pretty much the same, and that one can be derived from the other. To him, maybe that's how he experiences it, but I do not, and I've expressed that to him. What's funny though is that he would never let me inflict pain on him, nor would I get extreme pleasure out of that. We just clearly don't see this issue the same.

I do feel I have the right to say no, but yeah, the co dependent guilt is a battle. I DO respect myself, and feel I deserve so much more, but probably my staying, and putting up with more than I should have, has sent him the wrong message. I've also definitely given him way more respect than he's earned. I just feel that even if people disrespect you, you don't have to stoop to their level. Outside of the marriage though, I'd never tolerate this crap off anyone else.

I think my fear of divorce is huge in this situation. My parents have been married for over 60 years, and as a Christian, I've always, always felt divorce should be a last option. Plus, I see how with just a few small changes, we could have a good marriage. It just seems the more I "change", the more he goes the opposite way. It's almost like I'm allowing him to become worse, because I accommodate, or make up for his lack of kindness, or just him doing what is right. I have to stop doing that. What I feel I deserve, and what I've put up with, definitely are NOT THE SAME.

I do think I need to look at the bigger picture. It is easy to get bogged down in the minutia because I'm dealing with new hurts, or odd dysfunctional behaviors so very often. And I think I vent about HIM, because when he addresses an issue I can work on, I get working on it, and I don't tend to vent about that. I like when I have something "I" can do, or work on. But the problem is that nothing I've ever worked on makes a real, or lasting change in our relationship, or our marriage. Why? Because it seems to allow him a huge feeling of control, he likely gets the message that I'll just accommodate, or make up for his lack, and it's an endless cycle. I agree that only HE can make himself happy, that it is NOT MY JOB, but it's a job I've been sort of taking on.

I'm happy just to have peace, and to not have anyone mad at me. I live fully in the moment, and try to enjoy whatever I'm doing. All this chaos has taught me that. When I'm doing a hobby, I'm focused on that, and don't let my mind stew over all this.

I think I just need to keep my boundaries, and deal with the co dependent guilt. My daughter actually does think I'm sort of a doormat. She is way stronger than me that way, and she certainly doesn't worry about "nice" to the degree I do. I really have no fear of her ever letting anyone treat her this way. I know I've not set the best example that way, but I just don't see that happening for her. She's dumped boyfriends that don't treat her right. I think she's actually learned from my example. BPDh and her get along because neither of them much crosses each other.

I've tried really telling them off before though, sort of acting as they do, but it just left ME feeling bad, and while they respect it from each other, they didn't take me seriously. It's like they know my "firmness" is a bluff, even when I know it isn't. And when I do manage to maintain a boundary, like the one around the use of me car, BPDH resents it so terribly. He sees things in win/lose mentality, so he sees my maintaining the boundary as "he lost".

I guess I just have to start really acting and maintaining the respect I feel for myself on the inside. I've always viewed myself as very strong, because I think it takes a stronger person to own responsibility, work on themselves, and be willing to bend. But I think my willingness to compromise, negotiate, and the intermittent reinforcement I used to have in regards to boundaries, has sent the wrong message. I definitely do not want to be married to someone who wants to inflict pain up me! But I'm sure that my tolerance, has given a different message. What you accept, you allow. I guess I just sort of felt something is "off" in him, that he'd want that, and I tried not to judge him. I tried to see beyond it, or figure out what caused him to want that. I do think his FOO left a mark on him, and how he behaves.

I'm really concerned about ME, at this point. I know I've done all I can do, and then some, in regards to the marriage, my kids, everything. I think I'm just at a point, where all my focus needs to be on self care. It feels sort of selfish to me, but I think it's needed. I  have therapy today, and maybe she can help me come up with some ideas of how to not make things worse at home, while giving myself some down time, and time to focus on ME, instead of struggling so hard to maintain boundaries... .

CB, I think many posters have given you some excellent advice. I want to highlight a pattern of responses on this board that I see:

That's another thing about venting... .it is really hard often for the listener/reader to get a grip on what is really going on from a person's venting.   One moment it's like WOW this is serious, horrible, really bad ... .But once the listener gives serious feedback that matches the vent being told... .it forces the ventor to look at what they are presenting... .and often the ventor  starts to back away and backs-off on the narrative and re-creates the narrative to be much less dramatic, or starts to makes excuses, or starts to find ways to tell the listener how it's not all that bad, even though they are the one who rang the emergency alarm!   


This may sound harsh, but it is said in kindness. Unless something changes, I don't for see much real change in the situation. Your personal distress might motivate you to change, however, when you vent here, and other posters give you sincere feedback and then the response is " well its not so bad, I'm really OK most of the time, just a few little things and our marriage is OK" then all this board can so do for you is act as a steam release in your marriage and so is enabling you to stay in a situation that causes you distress.

There is a limit to being a good wife that pleases her husband and that limit is when one is compliant in allowing him to behave unethically. What is the bottom line for this? Would it be "Christian" to obey your husband and please him if he wanted you to participate in robbing a bank? Murdering someone? Beating up his mother?

Why would you not comply with him wanting to hurt someone? Because it is wrong. Why? because if each person is created in the image of God, then it is wrong to cause them harm. So what makes it right to hurt you? By complying with this, you are enabling him to act unethically, to not be a good person. But mostly, you are ignoring the fact that you too are also made in the divine image and are not respecting that.

I am not here to argue religion as that is personal, but if religion is supposed to inspire us to act according to our own higher selves, then perhaps saying "no, you can not treat me unethically" is being a good wife. I am also not here to question or argue your own religious views, but if they include enabling your H to treat you poorly, then this behavior is likely to continue.

Hi CB,

I understand that we as posters can start as many new threads as we choose. For me however with a thread as important as this one, I am confused as to why you have left it to open another thread.

What this conveys to me is that there is a disconnect somewhere in what you wrote here and how you have chosen to process the responses given to you.

It is as though, you have vented, we responded,  you read the responses, but has anything really changed for you ? You mention that you see divorce as a last option and link this to the longevity of your parents marriage and religious upbringing. Does this core belief keep you stuck ? Were you married before? What is different here that let's you behave differently from the woman you say you are outside this relationship, or in your previous relationships? I don't mean for you to tell us your responses, but maybe talk to your T.

I read your words, but they are the same words in a variety of different ways each time. Reading between the lines it seems as though your existence is still spent walking on eggshells for fear of loosing your marriage. I get this, I've been there... .

Your thread about inner peace is really a continuation of what is being discussed here, it seems to me that the inner peace you seek will not be possible until you stop acquiescing to your husbands physical and emotional demands to control you. Inner peace stems from being true to our values and being prepared to enforce our boundaries even at the expense of our relationships.

I quite like this link on boundary setting. Its simple and I found it easy to relate, and it let's you know that boundaries are fluid rather than rigid, and just saying 'no' can be a great place to start.

www.greatist.com/happiness/how-to-set-boundaries-in-relationship

I'm looking forward to hearing your ideas about acting on and maintaining the sense of self and self respect you spoke about.

To me, inner peace comes from listening to my higher self. I've been there too- co-dependent, trying to please, even if it meant ignoring my own inner voice that said " this is not who you are". As much as I tried to keep things peaceful for me by walking on eggshells and trying to keep people around me happy, there wasn't really peace.

All walking on eggshells brought was a temporary lull while waiting for the other shoe to drop- the next rage, the next angry outburst, the next need.

And my true authentic self would not stay silent for long.

I found peace when I listened to it. When I got help for co-dependency, when I stopped enabling the people around me- and one could name a few, my parents, my H.

I'm just noting you don't have to divorce him to stop the abuse. I have a Christian friend who doesn't believe in divorce. She has been happily separated from her abusive, alcoholic husband for many years. They are still married, but do not live together. She has the kids. Sometimes there are reasons to not get divorced (my friend's family would disown her). But it still isn't a reason to put up with abuse.

Pleasure and pain are the same? Tell him you want to switch roles. Next time YOU get the pleasure out of HIS pain. He won't want to do it, probably.

CB, do you find yourself over here talking about this when you reach a point where you can't bear it anymore?

The venting aspect, you release some of the pain and frustration, feel validated, and go back in to fight for the marriage some more.

Is this an old dynamic you have? When I realized I was repeating dynamics in my relationship, I was able to put a stop to them most of the time. Sometimes you just don't realize that your own ( my own) coping mechanisms are tripping you up on handling things more productively.

PM me and I'll send you a strap-on and he can see how he likes it. 

   Been reading this thread with interest.  Thought about proposing this idea and just kept watching for a while.  Now that Cat has penetrated this delicate subject, I think that CB should seriously consider this.  1.  There is equality here.   2.  Something needs to shake up the dynamic in the r/s.  My guess is he will balk.  Then follow with a "help me understand how my rear end is supposed to be open for business and yours is closed".  Let him know that you and your strap on are ready for action whenever he is in the mood.  End the conversation and debate,  

FF  

CB, I just want to make it clear that I will order you one from Amazon (I'm assuming they have them) or if not, I'll risk getting weird pop-up ads in perpetuity from another site. It would be worth it if you are willing to give it a go. I think he really needs some sensory awareness of what he has done to you.

  This idea is in keeping with the general advice to put the action steps on the pwBPD to satisfy their needs and wants instead of the non running around doing all kinds of things trying to "satisfy" the pwBPD.  Do not rescue him or help him in any way sort through his thoughts and emotions as he tries to reconcile that the pathway (excuse my directness) to your rear starts through his.  He has set the precedent of how it goes (I'm sure you are familiar).  That's what you are offering him in all details.  Amount of foreplay, lube (any other details I am forgetting).    

FF

Hehe 

Who knows though, they say that a lot of guys would secretly love that.

CB, something you wrote earlier in the thread really resonated with me: "all my efforts to be happy seem to ramp up his behaviors, or end up making me feel like I'm happy, but it has nothing to do with him. If he isn't in any way contributing to why I'm happy, why am I with him?"

There were many times in my relationship when I was doing everything I could, using the lessons, working on my side of things, and my partner responded by ramping up her drama. Sometimes by making sexual demands that she knew would be hurtful and offensive to me, and were not at all the kind of relationship we'd agreed to.

And I remember wondering what I was doing in the relationship when the only way to be happy was to spend less time with her and more time doing my own thing. The guys here told me that lowering the temperature and level of conflict (by initially doing my own thing more) could lead to her contributing more to my happiness, but it doesn't always work out that way. I really think that some pwBPD can't at all handle being in a relationship without the conflict, as it serves to keep their enmeshment fears at bay. Don't know if your H is in that category.

You seem to be at a stalemate where you're doing everything in your power to reduce the level of conflict and drama, and your H is responding by ramping up his efforts to increase the conflict and drama. Does that sound accurate? I agree that the venting here might be giving you just enough of a release to keep you in an untenable situation.

Calling him out for the hypocrisy could solve the anal sex issue (though he'd probably have some reason that makes perfect sense to him for why you should do it and he shouldn't). But won't he just come up with other things to demand of you or criticize you for?

Okay, I was afraid to go here for fear of too much information, but here it is: BPDh had a therapist for three years, that sometimes gave him decent advice, but also didn't challenge him, and I feel enabled him. Well, I'd sometimes, at his request, go with him, and we'd do marriage counseling with his therapist. I addressed how I felt he got off by hurting me during sex, and that he said anal was a "need", and how badly it hurt me.

Well, this therapist suggested I used one of the "toys" on his rear end, so he could truly understand just how it hurt. He really didn't want to, but he let me. Trust me, I was way more gentle than he is, used way more lube, and basically, the time factor wasn't obviously until completion, like when he wants anal. He sweated, he shook, and it was actually hard for me to do to him, because I know how much it hurts. No matter how hard he tried to relax, or how much I aroused him, it hurt. He squeeled like a stuck pig, and acted angry after that he'd had to endure that. I didn't make him, and it was his therapist's idea.

So, basically I know he knows how much it hurts, and I was much more gentle with him, and the duration of it was much less, but he still wants what he wants.

I'm sticking to my boundary, but I have to admit I thought he wouldn't ask for anal after firsthand knowledge of how much it hurt. That has been close to a year ago though, and he knows I'd never ask him to do it again(and frankly, the whole incident was a huge turn off for me)... .

It's funny, and this gave me a chuckle, but if this HUGE object lesson in empathy didn't teach him, I give up. All I can do is say no, and he can just deal with it.

  CB, I think you are missing the mindset of how to best do boundaries.  Instead of it being a negative, let it be a positive.  He wants anal you say yes and pull out strap on and a smile.  Remember, less is more so no talking, discussing, soothing, let him sort out how he sorts out things.  Consistency is critical.  Do not save him from his uncomfortable choices.  Think about the lessons you have learned about pwBPD.  How many "things" do pwBPD (or most people for that matter) learn in a one time event?  Put the action steps on them.  Same thinking as when a pwBPD threatens divorce.  Usually when people express sadness but say they are ready to accept service from the pwBPDs lawyer, the entire thing dies because the pwBPD would have to put out effort to get their whim of the moment over.  CB, think about the title of the thread.  Think about ways you have been insulating him from his poor choices.  I really think there are ways you can say yes, be positive and let him sort a lot of stuff out.    

FF

If one is raised in a drama style FOO, then it is difficult to change that pattern because it feels "normal" to someone who doesn't know any other way.

There is also the idea that a person can be addicted to drama. Drama takes the focus off oneself, and intense emotions stimulate chemicals in the brain, some similar to being on drugs. There are terms like "rage a holic" . People can seek out rage and drama the way they seek out drugs.

Some people seek out drama and chaos because it makes them feel temporarily good, just like drinking and drugs. It takes the pain away- their own psychic emotional pain.

There are enough other things I say yes to, I'm not going to cave on the anal sex boundary. You are right, I don't think he and I need to discuss it, the answer is a simple "no, it hurts". Less is more, in some cases, I agree. If having it done to him can't make him empathize, I see my only option as simply stating "no", but in a matter of fact tone.

I don't see this as negative or positive, it just IS. I mean, I'm sure he views not getting what he wants as negative, and I see not being hurt as positive, but beyond that it's just simple facts. I don't want to be hurt, and boundaries are all about protecting ourselves. It's not meant to hurt or punish him. In fact, I've been caught in the trap of taking one for the team(team marriage), in this and other regards, just to have peace. I can't keep doing that.

He is addicted to chaos/drama, as are his kids. If things are going good, I know to watch out, because pretty soon, there'll be a blow up. I'm sure to them it feels normal, or at least distracts them from the hurt or real issues. What feels normal to them, feels like a roller coaster, and landmine to me. My FOO wasn't anything like this, but I have a feelings his might have been. If not his FOO, at least his ex/he maintained this high level of drama and raised their kids in it.

I'm hoping that he someday sees he doesn't need the chaos to feel "normal".

   Do you think he would go through with letting you do it to him so he could do it to you?  From you description of the one experience, I'm more convinced that ever that you have zero risk here.  I see two pathways.  1.  He remembers and declines anal (you are saying yes and now he is saying no).  This is where I put my money bet.  2.  He decides to try and then asks for gentleness, compassion, tenderness (in other words tries to communicate about his sexual needs (wants) in a healthy way.  This conversation is a win because with this sex act it's the same thing.  He can relate to how you are feeling and you can relate as well.    CB, I see zero chance of you engaging in the horrible anal sex experience you have had up to this point.  You have already said in thread that if his behavior changed you may be willing to indulge his desires for anal.  So what is holding you back from trying to change the dynamic here?  What is the risk  This idea is not guaranteed.  The critical thing is that it is different and it will change the dynamic.  Status quo is obviously not working.    

FF

Once you start introducing tit for tatt conditionals, you are diluting the value of is it right for you or not. It weakens a value as you open the door for counter conditions. Then it goes off topic onto what is "fair" and what is not.

Whether it works or not it sets a precedent for negotiations over boundaries.  Boundaries should be simple, dependent on no other conditions being met.

True nothing changes without changes. Having a non negotiable boundary is one of those healthy changes

I agree with WW. A non-negotiable boundary is a strong boundary.

It's also the Golden Rule. If you don't like it, and it hurts, why do it to someone else?

Although I have to admit, I was thinking what Cat said, with something large. But that would have been in the initial argument- if this is supposed to feel good, then how would you like it?

Seems you both have tried it, and neither of you enjoyed it. That's enough to keep it out of the bedroom and close that subject for good.

   The reason that in this case I am "pushing" to change the dynamic is that it is the same act, the same experience.  I'm struggling to think of another sex act or issue where the mechanics of the thing are the same.  Limiting discussion should help close down rabbit trails about what is fair.  Sure he can claim that it is different and that he should able to be the one that doesn't get penetrated while doing the same thing to CB.  Critical that she stays calm, let's him know that she hears him and his desire, that she has different desires and that she wishes him well as he sorts this out.  And if he wants anal right now to go get the strap on and head to the bedroom.  Then end the discussion.    

FF

What about just no means no?

If he brings it up, it is no again.

Just no.

and another no, until he gets the message

NO

   Because this is a place where you can be positive, say yes, and be risk free.  When I think about CBs relationship, I'm seeing lots of negativity.  No much change in the dynamic.    

FF

   Think about the "rules" we teach.    Do pwBPD get the message better if we tell them, or if we let them experience the message through our(and their) actions?  I'm not at all trying to bust a boundary and take away the power of no.  I am trying to get CB and others to see that this particular sex act, since the mechanics are the same for both sexes, offers intriguing possibilities to help each party empathize and understand each other experiences.  CBs r/s needs a serious dynamic change.  Wouldn't this be an interesting story if this was turning point, ?    

FF

Yes, I know he has zero desire to try it again, and I don't want to open the door for negotiation. I'd originally stated I might do it again in the future, because I was confusing this as a "need". Waverider cleared that up for me. I see now that I don't have to feel guilty for not wanting to do something that hurts me, that I've been a good sport about and tried several times, and that it really is okay to say no.

He definitely has no problems saying no to me, and I accept that. I thought role playing might be fun, but he doesn't have interest, and I'm fine with that. I mean, it didn't even have to lead to sex, but I think he just doesn't like feeling "controlled", and by doing something I suggest, he feels controlled. I think for him anal sex is about power, control, and domination. I think he knows it's not something I consider sexy, and I even find it sort of humiliating(because I've shared my views of it with him). I don't judge those who like it, but he definitely knows my views, and the physical pain it causes me.

Just my aversion alone should be enough for him, never mind the pain factor. I'm just not going to even entertain the idea anymore.

Why would I want to change the dynamics of it, when the only other outcome could be it again be something I have to endure? I think having a simple boundary will resolve the issue? I mean, he won't like it, but I don't like being hurt either. This isn't something we can do half way. It's either I cave and do it, or he does without. In this case, I'm going to look out for me.

Maybe I'm missing what you are aiming for Formflier, but I just don't want to open a can of worms... .

I think the issue has become how can you stop him pestering once you have said no and no longer want to debate it. Which is more about a boundary about not having to constantly repeat your stance.

This is the same as any issues that are beyond negotiation, normally along the lines of disengaging from discussions etc.

FF that approach is relying either on triggering his empathy (which hasn't worked) or an implied threat. This is about what CB is willing to endure. It is easier to stick to a boundary if all other considerations are kept separate. What would then happen if since last year his stance on receiving has changed? pwBPD can't be relied on to be consistent. CB would simply have had the rug pulled from under her boundary.

Its an unnecessary power play.

The two acts may technically be the same but they affect people differently, so ultimately the consequences are not the same

Yeah, I'm just going to say "no", which has always been really hard for me. In this case though, I know I can do it. The pain of anal is such a strong reminder, and my dread of the pain, that saying "no" is way less painful than anal sex could ever be. Saying no causes discomfort for me, but it doesn't cause pain, and it's probably good for me to learn to say no. It's something I probably haven't done enough of, due to my fears, or his threats.


And yes, it will probably take a lot of repeating, and learning to not be pressured or guilted.

   There is no negotiation.    Either he understand through experience that there is no pleasure here (99% certain this will happen).  He will self select no and the issue is over.  or  He says he needs it gentler like this, not like that because it feels better to me.   If it feels better to him in a certain way (gentler, kinder, not dominating and controlling), then he should help you understand how his experience of having something in his rear is different than yours (trying to be polite here)  Don't rescue him from the turmoil this will create in him.      

FF

Saying no is being honest . There is no desire on CBs part to do this to him or have him do this to her.

The idea of saying yes with the toy is being dishonest. Yes is not an option.

Sure he may pester you. Even a kid will pester a parent for a toy or cookie if he thinks that there is a chance it could work.

The only way for him to learn that no means no is to say no till he realizes no means no.

He may like it gentler but that is not a guarantee he would be gentle with CB or that she'd like it regardless. If it isn't an option then it isn't an option.


CB's H has not shown empathy so far. I doubt this would make him empathetic.

A boundary is a boundary- not contingent on the other persons behavior or feelings.

Learning to say no takes practice, it is empowering and sets a precedent. It is a lot easier if it is kept as simple as possible.

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