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I know this isn’t just a bpd thing, however bpd are notorious for being unreasonable and not being able to see reason…
The worst has happened with our house sale, the buyer has pulled out over boundary issues after nearly six months. We found our dream home, it is a long way from both families, but so affordable, just what we want and we would have had money spare  to renovate it. Now my wife wants to bring in a quick sale agency which would lose us potentially 25% on the sale… because she is so attached to the dream home. I agree it’s not going to be easy to find another such home or to sell this. But it’s a crazy decision. And everyone thinks so, our families, solicitors, estate agents. House currently back on the market a bit cheaper to hopefully get a quick sale this week (wife insists cash buyers only). But if not then we just can’t agree.
I really want the children to see my parents before we leave as they are some distance anyway though nowhere near as far. My dad is very unwell and disabled so they won’t come to us. Wife blames baby sleep routines and travel sickness as reasons she refuses. They both sleep in bed with her. She also points out they can’t once in the summer which was true but such a nightmare for mum she doesn’t want to do it again. It sounds ridiculous but I almost want to say, spend a day with the children at my parents and then I’ll agree to lose all the money on the house. But I mentioned it earlier and of course she’s like, you’re not blackmailing me… Oh two other things are that my parents gave us lots of money to renovate this place, plus they would have to help us buy the new place as we can’t get a mortgage with two kids, a ton of debt and only one of us working. Anyway I guess I was just wondering if anyone had any advice. I’m sure I’m going to give in because I couldn’t bear to be the reason we miss out on the new house and never find anything as good. Of course it is also a massive impatience issue with my wife. She can’t abide the idea of being here for Christmas. And to be fair, the offers went through five months ago so we’ve been very unsettled since…

 This is a financial decision that will affect you and your children.

 I believe it’s worth putting boundaries and do what’s best for your family. BPD can switch opinions suddenly anyway so I suggest finding a way to re- introducing what needs to be done as her idea somehow.

hello BP,

let me throw out a couple of thoughts for us to kick around.


pwBPD have diminished executive function.     its not quite the same thing as being unreasonable.  Executive functions and cognitive control are terms used by psychologists and neuroscientists to describe a loosely defined collection of brain processes whose role is to guide thought and behavior in accordance with a persons goals or plans.

you can read more.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79702.0 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79702.0)


for people who suffer from BPD it is difficult for the executive function to engage and inhibit impulsive behavior.   We must sell the house now sound like pretty impulsive behavior.   from what you describe it doesn't sound like a good financial decision.    and it doesn't sound like its in the best interest of the family unit.   I would advise you slow this process down.    your wife will fear her need for the perfect house will not be met.   and truthfully, maybe it won't.   you are not responsible for fixing that.   or protecting her from disappointment.    you are responsible for making the best possible financial decisions for all of you.    going along with something you do not agree with,   something of this magnitude is not wise.     as Hero said ... boundaries.    boundaries.   boundaries.   



I would really strongly suggest you not conflate the two issues.    strongly suggest.   you having decision making capabilities with your children and your family does not relate to the house sale.   


Oh My.    hmmmm.    Well.    couple of things struck me here.    First.    FOG.   Obligation and Guilt.     Second.   Porous Boundaries.    Third.   Cognitive distortions.

First:  You are going to be the reason you miss out on the new house?   How is that again?   How did you get to be so in charge of this?    You agreed to a sale that isn't going through because of a property line dispute.   Did you know the property line is murky?   Did you draw the property line?   You are not willing to do a quick sale because its financially damaging.    You are taking the advice of the professionals.    But its going to be your fault you don't get the new house?   when did you get to be so powerful?    Circumstances prevent you from selling and buying right now.    Circumstances.    Not what BP does or doesn't do.

Second.   You are going to end up giving in.    Let's look at your self talk okay?   what we tell ourselves matters.     the words we use to describe things create the worlds we live in.    they are self fulfilling prophecies.    what about if you give yourself permission to gently stand firm?

Third.    Never going to find anything as good again.   How do you know this?    How do you know that something better isn't right around the corner?    This is a false argument.    Its a cognitive distortion.    You are jumping to a conclusion based on little evidence.    Yes it will be disappointment to let go of a house you worked so hard to buy.    It will be frustrating.    That doesn't mean it will be impossible to find something you like more or equally.

my two cents?    I really hope you hold firm on what you think is best.    as unpleasant as it will be to ride out the after effects.    as much as we always want to be the 'nice guys'   its not practical.

'ducks

Totally agree with ‘ducks.

Your parents have given you lots of money to renovate your current house. They will have to be on the mortgage to enable you to purchase a new house.

Your wife is unwilling to let you even visit them once with the children before you move?

How are you going to feel about this in the future when your parents are gone?

And in the present time, shouldn’t they have some say about how their money is spent, since without their support, you wouldn’t be able to even think about purchasing a new home?

Thank you all. I know of course that you are right. I don’t feel strong enough to fight my wife over this. It is devastating. I actually have not asked my mum about financially helping us to buy the house yet. She is always offering to help, but I just wish she could see the children as it is breaking her heart. My wife says it’s because no one appreciates how hard it is for her, and she thinks my mum ignores her and isn’t interested in her. Basically my mum can never do anything right by her despite them helping pay for our wedding, honeymoon, the current house and her previous car. My wife said if we were going it would just be for a couple of hours in the morning. And I’m ok with that. I have spoken to mum before about “rules” when my wife is around. It hasn’t helped. I’m thinking knowing what I know now, that it shouldn’t be necessary to give people extra advice on how to handle her. I was told by wife a couple of years ago that she doesn’t want the children to get inheritance from my parents because she got a lot of money inheritance when she was 18 and she wasted it all on junk food and plastic surgery. I’m so glad I never mentioned this. I want my mum to give the children whatever she wants to. Omg I just don’t want this week to happen. At the end of the week we are due to be signing the papers for the cheap sale if nothing better comes along.

Why?    Why are you signing something you don't appear to agree with?

Moving households is stressful at the best of times.    I would guess its extraordinarily difficult with two small children.  and a dog.  and a wife with a serious mental illness.   and a primary wage producer who is over functioning.    that's a lot.   and once you move you will have to renovate.    which is more stress.   this is a huge huge undertaking.     all the while being farther away from your support system - your parents.

Broken Person, I find it difficult to structure a reply that might prove helpful.    This short sale, move, renovate seems replete with  red-flag  red-flag and  red-flag.    You seem unwilling or unable to slow this down.    I wonder if I am missing something or misunderstanding something.    Can I ask some questions?

Have you considered what happens when/if you do move and suddenly your wife finds this isn't the perfect house any longer?    When her idealization on the house dries up?    When the house isn't enough to fill her up and make her happy?     When it becomes your fault the move didn't go smoothly?   Or the renovation is taking longer than planned?

How does this impact your work?     and the income you provide to the family?

I'm curious who is going to handle the packing, the organizing, the hiring of contractors, the supervising of workers.    Is your wife going to take on these responsibilities?

I do understand you are working to slowly take back your power,  reclaim your autonomy and independence.     I appreciate that these challenges feel overwhelming.    I know the FOG is thick.    Fear she will leave.  Fear she will rage. Obligation to keep her appeased.   Obligation to keep her happy.  Guilt over saying No.   Guilt over not being perfect.   Still.    Still nothing you have said indicates that this is good / positive move.    So I guess I am struggling to understand why you are willing to do this?    What's making BP feel she has to do something that she writes isn't in her best interests?     Please correct me if I'm wrong.   and if so I apologize for misunderstanding.    Why do you feel you need to surrender more of your autonomy and independence to assuage your wife?   I'm just not seeing it.

'ducks

Oh boy...BPD and real estate. 

Most people are successful in real estate because they are PATIENT.  They wait for the right price to buy and to sell. 

Boundary issues come up "all the time"...(or at least it seems like that to me)...and you just patiently work through it.  A couple years ago I signed a well agreement with a neighbor that made on of my investments a lot more valuable.  I'm hoping that sometime this coming year to do another deal with him to purchase some of his adjoining land, so all my septic is on "my" property...even though I have an easement on his property for my septic. 

I give those details to show that these things are complex and take time.

I'm also struggling to say something helpful.

You clearly..rationally realize that you should NOT sign quick sale papers.  You seem to be put out with your wife of her inability to "see" the logic in waiting (which you can clearly articulate)...yet even though you understand this is a HORRIBLE DECISION you seem to be going along with it...as if you are powerless

And in other threads we have identified that yes your wife make threats, but more often than not doesn't follow through.


What does your rational brain "say" to you after you read what I  and others have written?

Best,

FF

Regardless of the issue at the moment, there's a pattern to this. People want what they want, and try to get what they want. When people have healthy emotional boundaries, they also recognize that they can make a request - but the other person has the choice to say yes or no. They are mindful of other people's boundaries.

Nobody likes being told "no". It feels hurtful and frustrating. People who have emotional regulation skills are able to manage and process their own uncomfortable feelings. They know they are not able or should not manage someone else's feelings. So they have to be able to emotionally regulate their own discomfort when they say no to someone else and that person reacts.

A wise counselor ( once it was established that if I said no, I was not in physical danger) told me I had to learn to "stay calm in the storm". The other person might pitch a fit, but I had to be able to stay calm myself, understand that another person's feelings are theirs, not mine and let them learn to self regulate.

This one is on you, BP. It's not about how your wife handles not getting what she wants. She handles it like your toddler might if the toddler wants a sweet and you say no. What is in the child's best interest? Do you teach your child they can eat sweets all day if they want? Or do you teach your child to manage their own discomfort and learn that they need to eat healthy food before goodies. People want what they want, but sometimes it's not in their best interests to give in to that.

It's actually not a loving thing to do to give in to your wife against your better judgement. It keeps her from learning emotional regulation skills. Saying yes when you mean no is being inauthentic and builds resentment on your part. The key to managing this is to recognize when giving in is not necessarily in either of your best interests. Although it may keep the calm in this one storm, it reinforces the patterns between the two of you.

So...I struggled with my earlier response..but reading Notwendy's post and thinking about this for a while...I've got a fairly simple solution to "what to do when you don't agree" (again..the  issue you don't agree about really isn't "the" issue)

The answer is to "prepare".  Just like you would prepare if the weather report predicted a dramatic change...perhaps you would bring a rain coat and extra layers of clothing.

The concept is the same.  At some point your wife will demand you sign a paper about the house that you won't sign...there will be a storm...that storm will blow through..and life will go on.

It will be much easier on you if you start preparing now.

What do you think that will look like?

Best,

FF

FF, Ducks, Not Wendy, thank you all for your insights. You are such good people and I’m so blessed and humbled to be getting all this help from you. I may not have mentioned how much I love this house and area too, that’s why we’re moving so far away, due to property costs being so much cheaper. But our other options are so limited and we do need to get out of here which is deteriorating. The main reason I want my wife to have this is because she has been so positive about the move as I have mentioned, with her dieting, her self image, her intentions to make new friends and join groups. It has always seemed like it would be such a positive thing for us and our family. And I love the ocean too, I used to find it so peaceful last time I lived near the sea, something for me, that I totally intend to do alone too for myself. Hopefully the situation will work itself out. It seems we made a bad decision by dropping the house price. Now even the quick sale people are offering less. But wife has found an investor who has the best offer. We have been warned he may drop the price at the last minute. And I have made it clear that I absolutely will refuse. So yes I haven’t quite done what I feel I should. But then do you ever feel like maybe your heart should lead for once? I am completely torn to be honest. It’s not an option I would have considered if I was making the choice alone. But then sometimes it pays to stop being sensible and do something to be happy? Funny thing is, it’s not that the place needs renovation… rather that the kitchen is old-fashioned. I like it. My wife will have to understand that our money will be much limited as to what we can do with the place.
I’m doing my best with this folks. I’m getting better at it everyday, wife even made a pumpkin without getting angry (and good to model for the children that things don’t have to be perfect right). I validated her feelings about the pumpkin not being perfect and it worked wonders. Honestly I am so thankful for you all. I know you may think I’ve let myself down but I’m trying. There’s no way we’re going quick sale if this investor doesn’t come through with the cash. We have been living out of boxes for months now and it will have to stay that way.

Let’s look at this situation and from the perspective of financial planning.

You are currently in debt, and I assume this is largely due to your wife’s spending habits.

The house sale you were counting on in order to purchase the new house, has fallen through.

You were hoping to have a surplus of money from that sale in order to do renovations on the new place.

Your wife wants to sell at a discounted price, which will leave no extra money for any problems arising on the new property.

As the only working member of the marriage, you don’t earn much teaching piano part time and doing housecleaning.

Should anything happen to you health wise or through an accident, your two young children and your wife would be without a wageearner.

Would your mother be willing to support your wife if you were no longer in the picture?

How do you feel about putting your children in an even more vulnerable financial situation?

Hi Cat,
Yes absolutely thank you for your thoughts. You are completely correct about all of it. If we go ahead with the purchase then we will be mortgage free, will just need to ask my parents for help with solicitor/removals/land tax, as we would pay off our mortgage but be left with nothing. Still the dream for me in being mortgage free is that I could actually start saving some money and the bonus is I have full control of my income and accounts, I just can’t stop my wife getting more credit cards (I don’t know if it’s easier to get so far into debt here in the uk, but it is ridiculously easy and I spend stupid amounts of time feeling angry about it when I’m so powerless to stop it. The government pays off people’s debts for them and my wife is annoyed because she is a homeowner now which means she isn’t eligible!) My wife is in arrangement with her debtors where she pays them £1 each month declaring its all she can afford. But it doesn’t stop her getting more credit. Ironically I know no one can judge what’s “fair”, but we nearly would have got the mortgage paid off five years ago when we bought this place. I was diagnosed with bilateral breast cancer the week we were due to put life insurance in place, and then weren’t eligible. I was young to have the cancer and I totally put it down to stress and lack of sleep directly related to the stress of my relationship.  Things are better these days but I’m now realising it’s because I’ve learnt all these ways to not make wife angry and yet it’s actually not for the best like me never playing the piano. Anyway, I digress. My mother is a wonderful person and I know that she would be happy to take care of my wife and family should anything happen to me, and that she has the funds. My dad got sick with Parkinson’s and retired early and mum always wants to give us money because they don’t know what to do with it. I just wish my wife was more grateful, despite her love of money it actually annoys her! When our little one was in nicu mum wanted to give us some money just because she felt so powerless but my wife refused. I am no expert in finance but I believe my children will be in a better situation being mortgage free, though I appreciate that I would have to be working. My brother is also very well off and has offered to help in the past but I have never accepted. I also hope to see more of him and his family because his wife is from the area we’re moving to. Our children have never met each other yet but that is much to do with covid.

Hey...really important to get in touch with "logical/rational" part of your brain...but also your "heart"

Can you sit with your feelings regarding making a decision which puts your children in financial jeopardy?  Please share those when you get a moment.


Best,

FF

FF,
My children are already in financial jeopardy and I believe that this is an escape from that. To be free from having to pay a mortgage and being able to save some money would be better for our family. And very far out of reach if this house falls through. If I were to become sick or incapacitated or die then the family would be able to claim benefits which would not be enough to pay the mortgage we currently have. I am only due to lose four students (and they are easily replaceable) because everyone is used to online piano lessons now since Covid. As we have a clinically vulnerable child then lessons have stayed online. This really helps too because traditionally I have lost all my students when I moved. And I have moved a lot.

 
When you say "this house"  are you talking about the one you are trying to sell...or the one you are trying to buy?

Do I understand you correctly that because your children are already in financial jeopardy, putting them in more (or greater) financial jeopardy is something your feelings are ok with?

Best,

FF

It seems that you want the house too and the issue is about the sale of your current house.

I am less concerned about this one incidence than the big picture. Your wife's wants and spending exceed your income. She spends, you take care of the spending for her, then your parents take care of the expenses for both of you. Two generations of this.

Your parents may not mind doing this, but in general I think, with the exception of unusual circumstances, money management includes living within one's means. Parents may choose to help in some situations but a consistent bail out is enabling the mismanaged money decisions. It doesn't teach someone to manage money sensibly if there's no consequences.

It's interesting that your government also bails out credit card debt. What incentive do people have to not do this?

I mention this because this has been an issue in my family of origin. BPD mom overspent. Dad- who was the wage earner, enabled this. By the time I was a teen, my father was into debt and the stress was evident. Yet, he could not say no to my mother. Who do you think he said no to? Himself, and me.

Now, I am OK with parents saying no to their children sometimes. Children also need to know how to live on a budget. A teen can get a part time job to buy things they want- which I did. These are good lessons. But also imagine asking your Dad for a new dress, and he's so stressed he yells at you. This is what happened.

"No" from Dad would have been OK. That's normal to not give a teen all they ask for. But to be yelled at for even asking? I understand why- he was stressed. I was expected to be an adult and understand. But I was not an adult. I was a teen age girl who felt unworthy.

My mother does not understand how to manage money. I understand why Dad had a hard time saying no to her. The "storm" is quite extreme, but she knows our fear of it is a way to get what she wants. She will even say " do this or I will cause a scene" and she does.
 
Your children are small now and so are their requests. They may ask for a cookie, or a toy. That's not too hard to provide. What about when they get older? They are cute and cuddly now but older children can challenge a parent. One rule we had was to obey my mother and not say no to her at all. What will be the rules in your home?

Hi FF,
Thanks for your concern. To explain a little more, we live on the south coast of England and are looking at moving up north (about 5.5 hours away). In England the houses are generally cheaper the further away you get from London. We need to sell this house we’re in because it needs lots of work which we can’t afford and a swimming pool which also needs major renovations, basically we need a rich buyer or someone extremely naïve. If we were buying the new house with our original plan then we would be able to pay off our mortgage and buy the new house outright, plus would have had extra funds for renovations, new furniture etc. At this lower price, it will be just enough to pay off our mortgage and buy the new house outright and would just have to ask my parents to help a little make ends meet eg. Solicitors fees, tax, removals. Thing is, if we don’t sell now it presents two problems, when will we sell? (Meanwhile house deteriorates…) and will we find something comparable at the same price? Certainly nothing is available right now. One massive problem is, we looked at getting a mortgage on the new place for 50% of what our current mortgage is. And all the banks say no, EVEN THE ONE WE ARE CURRENTLY WITH. Which is so annoying because I have paid the mortgage in full every month for five years (except an arranged holiday during Covid…) So far as the children are concerned, we would be financially safer in the new place, despite the big loss of money.

Not Wendy, it is very difficult to imagine my daughter asking for a dress as a teenager, but I think I would always try to do what makes my children happy, but without them becoming spoilt brats, like encourage them to contribute to the household chores etc and just get them occasional treats. We already let our older one pick outa few toys, snacks, clothes etc it is good to let them choose. Interestingly I had the opposite upbringing to my wife and have the opposite relationship with money. My family were fairly well off and my parents worked very hard and I got most things I wanted. But since becoming an adult I rarely treat myself to anything “unnecessary”. My wife grew up with her family on benefits because her mother cares for her father. She got pretty much nothing she wanted. Since becoming an adult she treats herself whenever she feels like it, and the credit cards make this easy. She has worked in the past but not much. If she were to get an IVA where government repay a large percentage of your debt (not eligible due to becoming a home owner on my family’s money…) then she may possibly find it harder to get credit. But she can’t do that. I don’t know how I can curb her spending. Because it isn’t me who gives her the money. I would like to give her an allowance, but I pay all the bills and I just can’t afford it!

Hey...I've flipped 50ish properties and still have 8 rentals and/or owner held mortgage properties.  Been doing this since around 2002.

I'm going to just say this..and I don't mean it in an unkind way...I mean it in a way of "explaining how the market works"

You are the type of seller that I and many other investors look for...because there is an unreasonable/irrational hurry driving a sales decision.  We investors can "solve all their problems" and get rid of the property quickly...for a price.

Houses don't deteriorate that quickly (like if you sell it this week or next month or )

Listen...you have had a buyer before...I simply don't understand why there is a belief another won't come along.

Lastly..again..please take this in a helpful way.  You mentioned in a prior post that you would need a "naive buyer"...investors like me look for "naive sellers".  Your job in selling your house is NOT to behave and negotiate like one.

I say all this in hopes that you slow down and start making rational..deliberate...wise real estate sales decisions.  Even more important knowing that a new mortgage is off the table.

Best,

FF

Thank you FF for kindly sharing your thoughts, it is good to have an unbiased professional opinion. What I meant by naive buyer, was that if we’re selling over a longer period of time at full price, the person would either be: someone with lots of money (previous buyer spoke of extensions, new bathrooms, kitchens, ‘‘en suites, underfloor heating, complete swimming pool retiling etc. The amount of money she was talking about spending would be maybe 50% of the cost of the house or more (just my guess).
Or: someone without so much money, who somehow did not recognise the amount of work that needs to be done here. This was basically us, five years ago… the pool particularly was on its last legs, but we were just excited to get a pool.. didn’t think about the shelf life of it… arrrgh the amount of time and money I’ve poured into that pool whilst being expressly forbidden by wife that I’m not allowed to swim without her which means like four times a year or something. I’m annoyed because we’re about to get it shut down for winter, but had I joined the forum five years ago I would so have made it a major goal to regularly go swimming and on my own. So be it. I thought it was the right way to handle her. I know I was wrong. Thanks again. I’m certainly thinking about it all lots. I’m hoping this investor guy will pull out when he realises we won’t accept a lower offer. His offer is £30k more than all the other quick sale offers, so I’m hoping he’s not serious and my wife knows there’s no way I will agree to accept less. By the way it’s over 88% of our current asking price, what do you think? Everyone is warning us an investor wouldn’t pay this much. It’s 86% of what the original buyer had offered us.

I too have swooped in on a distress sale. I needed to buy a house for my mother and I put in an offer on one that had recently fallen out of escrow.

I found out years later from a realtor friend that the buyer was a local dentist and his wife. Apparently just before closing, the wife found out the dentist was having sex with the dental hygienist. Marriage imploded and the house owner and his wife were already in contract on another house.

I offered a rock bottom price, said “don’t come back with a counteroffer” and held my breath. Sometimes you have to play hardball.

The offer was accepted, to my realtor’s surprise, and everything worked out well.

The owners had a successful business and it was in their best interests to take a bit of a hit on the price in order to move forward.

You, on the other hand, are bidding against yourself. Taking a hit on the price takes money out of your pocket, money needed for living costs, moving costs, paying off debt, etc.

Sure, you may lose the new house you’ve selected if you wait patiently for a better price for the house you currently have. But there’s undoubtedly other houses in the same area that might even be better suited for your family. And you’d have more money to spend if you don’t go for a distress sale.

You are setting yourself up to get lowballed on the price, and you might be surprised at how low an offer you could get.

I really encourage you to stay away from "dichotomous thinking".  (in this case..we will have this type of buyer or that type of buyer).  The spectrum of house buyers out there is massive.

Also...you are not selling the house to yourself...so your "reasoning" about the house may not be the way "the general public" views the house.

Listen...I'm not sure of the terms used "over there"...but over here we call them realtors.  If you have interviewed 4 of them that have been selling for a while...and you are getting  a consistent picture of your homes value "in the current market"...then I think you likely have a good number.

If you have only had 1 or 2 look at your home...stop everything, get a few more opinions and then press forward.

I appreciate the effort to give me an idea of percentages...but that is all based on your asking price and STEP 1 is to make sure you have a reasonable asking price and also that you understand how the market works "right now".

For instance...many places over here the asking price is where you start...and then "bid up"...

Years ago I had tons of foreclosures to pick from...right now there is only 1...yes...1 foreclosure within driving distance.  (and yes...I'm making a move on it..but don't expect to get it)

So...without further context those numbers...well I really can't give you any feedback on them.

Best,

FF

Yes..this...it's your job to present yourself as NOT A DISTRESS SALE. 

That starts with you not "distressing" about selling your house.  Again...nothing I've ready makes me say..."Oh...you need to dump this house now..like tomorrow"

Best,

FF

Cat, thanks for sharing. I am thinking about all of this. I know one of my wife’s dreams is to pay off her debts and will try this angle tomorrow rather than the new kitchen we had dreamed of.
FF, the process is underway where the buyer’s solicitors are in contact with our solicitors. The agreement was we would go with him if we don’t get any better offers this week. He hasn’t viewed the house or sent anyone round to do so and he doesn’t intend to. Is this strange?
All: from a moral standpoint, over the past few weeks, I have said things to my wife that I know would not have been advised by you guys, please remember I am only learning all this stuff very recently. I have said to her, “you’re going to get your way, because you always do” and I have made promises such as, “I don’t agree, it’s not what I would choose, but I won’t stand in the way of us getting our dream home, I wouldn’t do that to you”.
It feels morally wrong to break these promises I should never have made. I am getting stronger, but it seems this is such an enormous hurdle, so early in my journey… and despite all the devaluing  and splitting on the house/area that’s to be expected, it did seem such a tremendously positive move for us, in line with my setting new boundaries in it relationship etc.

of course.    progress isn't made in leaps and bounds.    its not measured in giant steps forward.    its more a collection of small insights that become ah-hah moments.    I've been here for a while.    my relationship is long over.    I'm still learning.    every day I am still learning.     most of us are.

there are multiple things going on here.    many layers to the onion. 

• the practical logistical real estate dealings
• the patterns of relating that exist in your relationship

• your own emotions about the move
• family obligations and responsibilities to your children and parents

just to name a few


NotWendy has been talking about the patterns of relating inside your relationship and I am going to touch on those also.

You are right.    I understand why you would have said:


but I wouldn't have advised it.     Let me explain why.     Its emotional reasoning.   emotional reasoning is when we conclude something is true because of our emotional reaction to it.    we all do it.    most of us aren't aware of it.   some people do it to excess.    quick example:   the person who 'feels' fat and decides they are obese and needs to go on strict diet even though the scale tells them they are 10lbs over weight.   

a lot of what you are describing in this thread appears to me to be emotional reasoning.    it feels like I am standing in the way of us getting our new home so I must be and I must do something about it.    critical thinking would tell you there is lots of reasons why the sale has hit a snag.    many of them having nothing to do with you.    and most of them not your sole responsibility to repair.

the same is true of "you are going to get your way, you always do".    emotional reasoning.     it feels like she always gets her way, therefor it must be true and I am powerless to do anything about it.    critical thinking would tell you as a functioning mature adult you have choices and options.   you can decide what you want to do and what risk you are willing to absorb and what consequences you are willing to bear.


What's morally wrong with saying "I am having second thoughts about all this and am not sure I want to proceed."      What's wrong with changing your mind?    what are the nature of these promises?    where they manipulated?   made under duress?    are they legitimate well thought out promises?     

again to me this looks like more emotional reasoning.    it feels hard to break this agreement so it must be the wrong thing to do.    critical thinking would say that not all agreements last,  and that new information changes the nature of old agreements.   critical thinking would suggest you have the right to change your mind.

Ideally you want to find a spot where your emotional reasoning and your critical thinking are working together in harmony.   some people call it the wise mind.    the wise mind says I understand that I feel XYZ and that's important and I also understand that ABC is important too.   the wise mind helps you find the comfort zone to reside in.

'ducks

BP, I understand the difficulty in saying "no" to your wife. Even saying "I know I said you would get your way, but looking at our financial situation, I don't think I can do it".

I have seen the storm myself- many times. It's scary. Your wife splits and cuts you off from affection. That's a form of abandonment. It's something I feared in childhood and I became a people pleaser. Ultimately though, being a people pleaser was not a good thing for me to do.

I also saw this dynamic with my parents. My father would quickly provide whatever my mother asked for, in order to avoid her reaction, even if the request was not reasonable. One reason for her "desires" was a form of projection. The "reason" ( to her )for her being unhappy was something external. Often I'd hear her say "we have to have this vacation in order to save the marriage" even if the vacation was not affordable. Or it was an object she had to have. Or someone has to do something for her.

And if we didn't do what she said - or if we did it but it wasn't exactly how she wanted- we'd be punished. She'd lock herself in her room and not come out, while we cried in front of the closed door, or she'd be verbally cruel, or critical. As a teen, I would have had a lot to be proud of- I did well in school, had nice friends, but had such low self esteem.

The not being able to treat yourself- in an affordable way- when you earn the money- is a result of low self esteem. I know this because I have that tendency as well. It's not about how much money a family has but how it is spent. It's as if we had two income levels in one home. We were not wealthy but we had what we needed. Yet, my mother's wishes for non essential things came first because it was something she emotionally wanted. And we observed that.

Sure, you will expect your children to be responsible teens and contribute. I agree with that, and we did that too. Except that the rules were different when it came to BPD mother. She could behave in ways we would have gotten punished for. She could be verbally abusive and we were expected to ignore that. Fortunately your wife seems to be more maternal with the young babies but older children are not so compliant or cute, or cuddly.

Your children have two role models for parents. My two role models had similar dynamics. BPD mother and my father who was, to me, the more stable one. Yet, he also had strong enabling tendencies. To me, he was the hero. He had so many strong and admirable characteristics. I didn't want to behave like BPD mom, so I looked to him as the role model which was mostly a good thing except that I got a lot of validation for enabling BPD mother and assumed those behaviors were normal. I didn't feel loved for just being me. I thought I had to please people to be loved.

You may not be ready to set all the boundaries you wish to set, but please keep in mind that your children are looking at both of you for how to "be an adult". Being able to stand up for yourself so you are authentically present in your marriage is the first step to role modeling this- so it's for you and it's for them.

Nope...not strange at all when you stand to make so much money...you have plenty of room to make mistakes.  The "tighter" the margins (amount of $$ to make) on a deal the more due diligence an investor will put into a deal.


How many solicitors have given you a comparative market analysis before you hired the solicitor you did?


Last:  The way forward to a "wise mind" decision about the house sale is NOT likely to be through deeper rational understanding of real estate market dynamics and practices.

I believe that if you really reflect on the RELATIONSHIP DYNAMICS at play here that you will see solutions that bring in a lot more $$ from the house sale.  I'm doubtful you will be able to "convince" your wife of a different course of action through conversation. 

I do think you will "convince" her through action or inaction (signing or not signing an agreement).

Focus on wise mind ideas presented here...I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that after you reflect for a while.

Best,

FF

I am addressing the pattern, rather than this one incident as from what I have observed, it won't change unless you change it. If someone is always getting their way, no matter what, what incentive would they have to change? None.

I am going to propose that- while you may feel you are being loving and caring, it's not kind to someone to provide a world of getting what you want with no consequences or having to earn some of it. This is not what you want for your children. You set limits and also will expect them to contribute as they get old enough by helping around the house. You also won't give in to all their wants because you know it's not good for them.

Then how is doing this kind of thing good for your wife? It's not.

So your wife spent away her inheritance and now she overspends with credit cards. No problem, there's always a bail out. How will she ever understand sound financial decisions? She's not ever had to make them.

While it did hurt my self esteem that my father wasn't able to give me things I wanted sometimes ( even small things he had to get "permission" from BPD mother for), I am grateful for the experience of learning to work and earn things rather than to have them only given to me. I recall going shopping with my mother and watching her buy expensive things, money was no concern for her. In her era, women were mostly housewives, but their work was evident. My mother didn't do housework- someone did that for her. We had sitters too.

I recall in college buying some nice shoes with the money I earned from working. I had a sense of pride "I did this myself" and then thinking wow, my mother has a closet full of nice shoes but she's not ever experienced this kind of pride in accomplishment or the feeling she can do this. Ironically, while she was ruling the household with her wishes, her own sense of self was low. We were all jumping in to do things for her and emotionally caretake her and while it appeared we were being helpful, we were also giving her the message " you can't do this so we need to do it for you". She didn't gain skills because we did things for her. Some of her need to have nice things was to bolster her self esteem.

I am also trying to understand your parents. They seem so generous while also tolerating being treated ungratefully by your wife. Perhaps they modeled similar behavior to you- tolerating being treated poorly in order to have some kind of relationship with you and your family. It doesn't seem there's a reason to exclude your parents from seeing your children- on their part. They aren't abusive. So your wife gets to benefit from their generosity while treating them poorly. How it is OK to enable her to do this?

One thing to consider is - what are you getting out of these dynamics? A relationship is two people. One general rule of any behavior is that a person will continue a behavior as long as the benefit exceeds the cost for them. Even behaviors with a high cost, such as addiction, continue due to the person feeling the benefit exceeds the cost. The behavior might continue, even if the person is not happy due to the cost, but it seems they can't change it. Why?

Let's look at the other side of enabling. Enabling also reinforces dysfunctional behaviors. It fosters dependence. Your wife may threaten to end the relationship but she won't likely leave if she's dependent on you or you don't upset her. I don't think anyone wants their much loved partner to leave the relationship, and surely you don't, but excessive fear of that can lead us to being enabling.

FF, not Wendy, ducks, cat..
I am sorry to tell you I just can’t fight this one. I feel so worn down and emotional and upset and disappointed with myself. I feel I have let you all down but I know you would say I’ve let myself down and worse my children, my parents. And also my wife. But I do really want to live in the new house too, that’s the good thing. I mean it would be worse if I didn’t even want to live there. It’s in the hands of this guy who is randomly offering £30k more than everyone else. If he changes his mind then we’re out and will stay here to sell for a decent price however long it takes.  I am disappointed in myself but a part of me does question whether it would be right to lose out on this house. Also our mortgage is sky high on svr because we didn’t want to lock in another term which we may be leaving (had locked in but then exited due to not being able to port mortgage). I am working on self-compassion and self-care. I feel bad about myself because I feel I’m not good enough and (I know I’m not making any sense, I guess I’m torn between pleasing my wife and pleasing you lot). I have learnt and finally grasped the concept of having to model self-compassion to one’s children. For years I’ve been very good at doing this at work (faking it). But it’s different when they’re yours and they’re there with you at your lowest moments. I need to learn to care for myself so that I can teach them to care for themselves. And to stand up for themselves when they are children and adults. We were at the supermarket and I just felt like crying, but I treated myself to a new hair brush. It’s very unusual that I would do that but I wanted to do something nice for myself. I  am trying to talk kindly and encouragingly to myself as advised. I’m sorry. I am a mess. I thought I was doing well but this challenge is just too great and I know I sound like an addict wanting one more fix. But it’s just not that simple. I will keep going, I am practising validation, not arguing, and the massive what I perceive as “responding as a normal person would” rather than constantly apologising and being desperate to please. The above is all working wonders and my wife is responding differently to me. I will be here, needing support. I feel stronger to tackle issues that have been bothering me for years like playing the piano. It’s just too early for me to handle this right now. I am hoping the buyer pulls out and my wife knows that. But then another part of me is hoping he doesn’t.

Keep being kind to yourself.  :hug:

It is not a totally clear cut decision. You are looking forward to a new place and not having a mortgage, so that’s completely understandable.

We are rooting for you. And it isn’t a question of pleasing us. We just wanted to point out potential issues that might lead to you losing out on some equity. You have factored in lots of variables to make your decision and there will be some positive outcomes should the deal go through.

If however it doesn’t, then you have more opportunities to revisit the decision.

Cat thank you, you are all so kind. I appreciate the support.
Not Wendy, I meant to mention as you asked about my parents… Yes they are very kind and generous people. They worked hard all my life and since I was a young baby had nannies looking after me. I feel like I was always a very emotional child and struggled to cope with my feelings of anger and despair and not belonging… No one ever helped me to deal with my feelings and emotions. My dad is most similar to me, both his parents were alcoholics and he went to boarding school at age seven and was bullied. I think his mother may have had bpd or another mental illness. She attempted suicide numerous times and my dad also had an attempted suicide attempt a few years ago triggered by his suffering from Parkinson’s disease. My mum was the stable one, she is lovely, kind, friendly, but she is not a very emotional or sympathetic person and she couldn’t understand my fits of rage as a child/teenager. It usually got me what I wanted. But I just needed someone to listen to me. I know she loved me but at the time I didn’t think she was that bothered, about the bullying, the depression… these weren’t things she had ever had to deal with. As a child  there were no boundaries really. I was allowed to treat my parents with disrespect and to not contribute to anything. This was partly where my self-hated came from. As a teenager I was allowed to go wherever I wanted with whoever I wanted and tbh they never knew where I was which made me feel they didn’t care, I was out there seeing which drink  and drugs made me feel better (pretty much everything temporarily) I always thought my mum was a weak person because she always gave me what I wanted. Now that I’m older I recognise  she is very tough and strong and my dad has become harder and harder to deal with as his illness has progressed. I’m amazed it has not broken her. But she is good at her own self care. She does exercise classes, Spanish courses, she has friends.
My wife has always been jealous of my relationship with my mum, even though we’ve never really been close. She also doesn’t like my mum admitting to struggling with her mental health these days. My wife sees herself as a mental health recovery warrior, online she used to support strangers who were struggling (I did too and this was how we met), but us people in her actual real life she has no patience for.
Oh and also I just saw a little challenge for myself when you said your father had to ask your mothers permission before buying you things… So nearly all of the time when I’m at the shops, I’m with my wife and she chooses all the children’s clothes and if I suggest something she doesn’t like then we don’t get it. She’s the young trendy one so she just says. “I don’t want them wearing that”. For this reason, if I’m alone and see something nice for the children, I text her a picture of it to see what she thinks, and whether to buy it. Tbh it annoys her if I ever do this, but sometimes she says yes. At the end of the day, she has bought them many things without consulting me, mostly online. Well the challenge I am setting myself is to get them something without asking her permission. And then to make sure they wear it. And not to appease her by getting her something too (I usually get the wrong thing anyway). Today I took a picture of her with the baby and (btw first I took a selfie with the baby :D) I said “omg look at her cute little face” and my wife was like, “what about my cute little face? Why is everything always about the children?” I didn’t apologise. I did slightly explain because it’s hard to say nothing so I said I was pleased I got a good picture of the baby. I told myself, you know what? It’s actually ok to see a picture of a baby with its mother and just say the baby looks cute.

Totally agree with Cat.

Keep on being kind to yourself and celebrate the small victories.     You are making progress every day.     That's the important thing.    I see it as a big step that you identified what your own wants/needs are and then even contemplated drawing a boundary and saying No to your wife.     

BP- please continue to take care of you. No worries about pleasing us here- we've learned from our own tendencies to enable and also know it's progress- not perfection. Also, any advice needs to be considered in one's individual circumstances.

A boundary can only be a boundary if the person is able to uphold it. This house issue may not be something you feel ready to uphold but the progress is that you are now aware that you have agreed to something you have reservations about. This awareness will help you in other situations. This poem is an analogy of that.  

https://simpleandpractical.com/stages-change-poem/

Family patterns are interesting to look at- not from a point of blame but from one of understanding and learning. One area I found support in was in 12 step groups for codependency and ACA. When they were first recommended to me I was puzzled as alcohol is not an issue in my situation, but I learned that the family and relationship patterns where there is an alcoholic are similar to those with a disordered family member ( such as BPD). I also learned how these patterns can persist in generations, due to the behaviors being learned- but the good news being that learned dysfunctional behaviors can be replaced by more functional ones when we work at this.

We tend to choose romantic partners with whom we share certain patterns/behaviors- even if we don't share the disorder. For instance, in a family with an alcoholic, there often is an enabler and poor boundaries. The children growing up in such a family have had enabling, poor boundaries and addiction modeled- and so may take on behaviors, even if they don't drink alcohol.

This isn't to blame parents. If they grew up with these patterns, then they do the best they can with the relationship tools they have. But knowing this helps us to consider learning different ones.

One thing that motivated me to work on change was to change the cycle. I grew up with enabling behaviors and poor boundaries- and I took that into my marriage. I didn't know any better at the time. All I knew was that in order to be loved, I had to please other people. Understanding that I was a role model for that for my children motivated me to do some personal work on this. I wanted them to be able to stand up for themselves. To do this, I had to learn to stand up for me and be more authentically me. I understand the tendency to say "yes" and be fearful of saying "no". Saying "no" to my mother resulted in her acting out. Walking on eggshells was the normal for us growing up. No parent is perfect and we all will make mistakes. We only know what we know to do, but I wanted to do better for me and for my children.

It's great that you bought yourself a hairbrush. If finances are tight, do things like this that are manageable. Treat yourself to a fancy coffee if you like that, or a book, or watch a movie on TV you like, take a walk, go to a park, things like this that you do for you.

Also, you don't need permission to buy an outfit for the kids, or a treat for them.

The jealousy of your attention to your mother, or your children, I think is not unusual. My BPD mother has a difficult relationship with my father's family. She also seemed resentful when he paid attention to me. I imagine it irked her that I felt closer to him than I do with her, but he was easier to be with and I felt emotionally safer with him. But just because it bothers them doesn't mean it's wrong to love our family members.

One aspect of your childhood that parallels BPD is a lack of boundaries. Your parents seem to have lacked boundaries with you and given you anything you wanted. They also tolerated being treated poorly by you. This was your role model. Now, with your wife, you have poor boundaries, give in to what she wants and also tolerate behaviors. This isn't your fault- this is what you knew as family growing up. It's also something perhaps your parents learned in their families. But now that you know this is not something you want to continue--- you can learn to change it. Don't be hard on yourself.  If this is your default behavior-the one most practiced and learned by you- it feels odd to you when you do something different. But you know from practicing piano that as you work on these skills, you get better at them.

So for clarity...the house sale isn't "over"...right?  Is it more accurate to say that you signed a sales contract with an investor that has given you a lowball offer?

Are there contingencies where they can drop the contract?

How long until projected closing?

How many solicitors did you get opinions from, before you selected the solicitor you are using.

Best,

FF

Nothing is certain at this stage. I haven’t even signed anything actually. The agreement I made with my wife last week was that it would go back on the market for a week to see if it sold and she insisted on cash buyers only and we’ve had no interest at all. The investor has asked that we put the price back up to what it was originally just for one day, which I find very bizarre, apparently this increases the market value. But none of the others thought this as I did suggest it. Apparently it should be completed by the end of this month but there are no writtem terms for this. We are using one of the solicitors the estate agents recommended when they got us the first interested buyer. They have been rubbish but we are now on the 4th person in the company and we complained about the others so now we have the top conveyancer there and she is really nice and sad for us. His solicitors have been in touch with her so it seems it’s going ahead. He could drop his offer at a later stage but it would be stupid cos we’ve made it clear we’re not interested but I don’t expect that bothers him. Who knows, I’m just making peace that what’s meant to be will happen and it will be right for us. My wife is continuing to succeed with her weight loss journey and this is great that she has done this here and isn’t saying “I’m only going to bother if we’re in the dream house…”

Ducks and not Wendy thank you for the encouragement, I have not and will not be abandoning this journey! I am more determined than ever to make things right and help my children to grow up mentally and emotionally healthy. I am in fact so excited about it and although I’ve stopped wanting to die most of the time since having children, I have never actually felt positive about the future, until now.
Not Wendy, the poem was fantastic, I loved it! I’m amazed at the different responses I’m getting from my wife… Little things like I took off my wedding ring because I have eczema and she’s saying I shouldn’t do that and all… “don’t you love me?” and I’m just like, “I have eczema. I’ll put it on again when it gets better..” Another time I was quickly doing a work text 30 seconds before she knew I had an online lesson and she’s like, “helloo! I love you!” And I’m like, “sorry I’m just quickly doing something” and she’s like, “fine then don’t love me and don’t look at me..” I’m like, “I’m just texting a student and I have to make the next call now “. And I did. My manner with her has changed. I don’t know if she really notices me wearing new tops, putting the dress on the child, doing housework without asking her permission, buying myself a hairbrush? whether she realises these things are connected and that I am slowly changing.. but anyway she seems fine with it. Which is truly very surprising.

 |iiii  Build on these successes! Keep doing what you’re doing and know you’re on the right path for making things better for your family!

I would encourage you to take this "fact" to heart and be deliberate about challenging your other assumptions/beliefs.

When I read your accounts my 30000 foot looking down reaction is...you decided to do something...your wife attempted the old pattern of drawing you into conflict/drama...you didn't ignore her, yet you also pressed on with your decision...your wife did not follow through with "normal drama"...BECAUSE YOU CHANGED THE DANCE

Think about this...there is a LOT of power for you in this pattern.

 |iiii

Best,

FF

My wife is continuing to succeed with her weight loss journey and this is great that she has done this here and isn’t saying “I’m only going to bother if we’re in the dream house…”

You are doing great.

Be careful with this one. Any personal change needs to be self motivated. Yes, you can encourage this by giving positive feedback to her efforts. "I am so impressed at your motivation to succeed with this!"

It's an obvious boundary : one's own body and the food one puts in their mouth. I would refrain from making any suggestions or overly focusing on this. This is her body, her diet. The fact that she's doing it for herself is great. But don't make it something that you have input too much in.

When one family member is adopting dietary changes, it helps if the whole family does as well, so that member doesn't feel they are excluded. It doesn't hurt anyone to follow a healthy diet. Of course, the children need to eat their share of calories too and this can come from healthy foods. If you want a treat - that's something you can get when you are out on your own, and not eat it in front of her.

But it's her body and she chooses what to eat.

Thank you all, I do think things are going fairly well considering, especially during such a stressful time and it’s been a hard year for everyone with our littlest being unwell. Most days I can find examples of things I’ve handled better and I’m doing lots of reflecting on this.
Not Wendy, I never really discuss what my wife is eating, the dieting has been entirely her idea. What I meant was, I expected she would quit the diet due to all the stress but I’m pleased and proud that she hasn’t. When we met she was severely eating disordered so I learned to not talk about food. She’s doing much better these days. I’m just glad she can see that she can be successful with this even if we don’t get the house. It makes little sense but I’ve learnt to predict her behaviour.

Update: We are not selling our house at a low price and we are not buying the dream house. My wife’s decision, which I was more than happy to support. She denies my opinion had any effect on her decision, which she claims was purely because, “it’s taking too long and I’ve had enough…”
I like to think that it was easier for her to change her mind without feeling like she was conceding the battle to me.. as a direct result of what I have learnt from you all here. Anyway… thank you again.

So...I'm a real estate guy, familiar with contracts and all that.  My curiosity is through the roof!

What happened (other than your wife) to undo your current sales contract?  How are you avoiding a monetary penalty for not following through on a contract?

So...what I hope you find time to reflect on...how are you going to approach her and the relationship when she decides that you are selling for even lower and buying a more expensive one? 

Best,

FF

FF.. well let’s just say, my wife is a law unto herself lol
Seriously, I have only bought and sold a couple of houses so I know very little.. But it seems similar process whether it’s through an estate agent or the second guy who was a private investor. His solicitor got in touch with our solicitor as promised, the day my wife “accepted” his offer. I understand that he then had to provide “proof of funds”. The next few weeks nothing really happens. Enquiries… amendments… searches… basically if you ring up the solicitors during this time there is no news, you’re just told to be patient and reminded that there will be extra charges if you keep bothering them. The buyer and his business partner stopped answering my wife’s calls pretty much p once the offer was accepted. So I did sign something a couple of weeks ago but it’s meaningless until the buyer signs too. He hasn’t questioned us pulling out so we’re both now convinced that his plan was to drop the offer at the “last minute” whatever that means. So financially we will have to pay the solicitor a bit extra but not much because it seems my wife has charmed her and got her on side. As for the future… believe me I have learnt from this experience… and it WONT be happening again.

Wait..you guys will have to pay the "realtor", even if the house doesn't sell?  Do what?

It doesn't sound like you were ever under contract?  Did they put down a deposit?

Best,

FF

FF, not sure if it’s different in US, but I think realtor is the word for estate agent. We don’t have to pay the estate agents, however once an offer is accepted them both parties appoint a solicitor (different organisation) and once they start drawing up contracts then you are liable to pay even though the sale doesn’t go through. Apparently our bill was looking like £2.5k after all the work they did on the boundary issue, but the solicitor had got it down to £750. She likes my wife. Most people do!  |iiii