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I've gone back and forth between Staying and Leaving, but I'm back here because I haven't left.  Things had been pretty calm and steady for a few weeks.  Then the "uBPDbf wants sex every day" issue came back up.

When we started living together (almost 5 yrs ago), uBPDbf said he wanted sex every day.  I was surprised because this issue never came up before we lived together.  My response was - I don't want to have sex every day, to which he responded "then just give me a ____ every day because we're in a r/s now and the gf is supposed to give her bf whatever he wants when he wants it".  Needless to say, I was shocked.  We've struggled with this issue constantly.  If I'm not in the mood for sex or a certain sex act that he enjoys, he rages and I walk away and sleep in the spare room.  More times than I want to think about, I've done what he wants when I really don't want to just to keep the peace.  I know its wrong, but that's what I've done.  So recently I've tried to have more sex and less of the other thing since that's what he's always said he wanted. 

The new thing from him now is, even if we have sex more often, he still wants the other thing EVERY SINGLE DAY regardless of whether we have sex.  He now wants both.  Un-effin-believable.  I try to be accomodating because I'm sick to my stomach of performing what he wants so I figure we'll both get something out of it and have more actual sex.  I should have known it wouldn't be good enough because no matter what I do, its never enough - on any subject. 

Its been about 5 days since this new issue came up and we've barely spoken, I've been sleeping in the other room and if I try to have a conversation with him, he screams and starts name-calling.

I've written about this issue between us before but need some further help.  How do I handle this?  Anyone been in this situation who can provide some insight?  Thanks.

He sounds like a sex addict!

And I know that you can't talk to other people about this because they would look at you like, "You do what for your husband!"

What would happen if you told your husband no? Would he get physically violent with you or scream or pout?

Things are really tricky with my husband. He says that he has erectile dysfunction but things will work if I take care of things for him without have actual intercourse. And, things will work if I start talking to him about my lover. He very much wanted to do the whole cuckold thing. If I went to see my friend, he would badger me for details even to the point of getting more excited if I called him by my friends name while in the throws of passion.

I set a boundary and said that I refused to talk to him about my friend at all. Now, he is more or less forbidding from seeing my friend and says that he doesn't want me talking to him. Basically, what I am hearing is that my husband likes me having a lover as long as I give him all of the details and then take care of him.

If I refuse to have sex with my husband, he will pout and get in a funk and talk about how empty he is and how bad he is struggling with everything. This last time, he didn't bring up the sex at all but I knew what was going on. As soon as I agreed to get physical with him, his funk suddenly lifted and he has been in a good mood.

I wish I had some answers for you but I don't. All I can recommend is setting some boundaries and trying to make sure that you are able to do it in a way that is safe for you.

Toomanyeggshells I agree with Vortex, set boundarires and stick to them. You have the right to say "no" at any time and have that respected. You can also say "Yes" or even "maybe" if you're not sure.

If you are thinking "no" and you participate and do it anyway, it actually causes alot of damage to both of you. You unavoidably resent him and he picks it up. This sets up a viscious cycle which is difficult to interrupt.

I think that in a BPD relationship the sexual relationship becomes a proxy battle for control, and it actually reflects more about the relationship than about the sex. It is highly abusive to make these kinds of demands and refuse to discuss the issues you have. It is playing victim.

I have learned that for true intimacy, the woman needs to feel emotionally safe ie that she can say yes, no or maybe and be respected. That means no pouting, shouting or other forms of coercion. And a man needs to feel nurtured and respected to have true intimacy.

Sex is one of those things which can be addictive but I would steer clear of saying "I think you're addicted to sex".

I'd suggest take ownership of this and say, I've had enough of not being able to speak about this. I've scheduled an appointment with a sex therapist to discuss it with someone who can advise me. The appointment is on x date and y time.

If he doesn't come you have the opprotunity to speak to a specialist about your concerns. If he does come, he can face the reality of what's happening

Its definitely about control for him.  He's been trying to control every aspect of my life and I haven't let him.  Its also about his obsessive jealousy.  According to him, if I'm not having sex with him, I'm doing it with my bosses, the newspaper boy, my gynecologist, etc.

You are also right Moselle about the feelings of resentment.  I've had those feelings a long time because of his demands and behavior.  When I say not tonight or how about tomorrow, he has a temper tantrum like a 2 year old.  I'm definitely not the most sexual person in the world, but this issue is all about the way he feels about himself.  He doesn't feel loved unless I prove it with sex.  I think somebody, somewhere really screwed with his head.

hi tme,

did you read this article yet ? https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a114.htm

compulsive behaviour towards sex is very common with pwBPd and unfortunately they have no natural feeling to respecting their partner's borders,

so you need to stay firm in putting the limit where you want it and break the habit of giving in after the endless begging, pleading, arguing,... .!

(my ex's repeated behaviour of begging and pushing for sex is one of the reasons I broke up with him , and even now that we are allready separated for one year, he still continues trying, but I won't give in, and in the end he doesn't reject me for it, because he agrees that our friendship is more important than the sex  |iiii )

Is it because of his demands and behaviour, or your sense of powerlessness, to enforce your "no"?

I'm not being funny about that, but I wonder if this is you playing a bit of victim too. It's very easy to say "Yes" and then later say you didn't want to. It made me really angry when my separated BPD/NPDw did this. It's just not fair. I would much prefer a "no" than an unwilling "Yes".


OK, so do you give a 2 year old a piece of candy after they just threw a temper tantrum?


Are you in a relationship where you feel emotionally safe, to explore your sexuality? You're entitled to that. Perhaps you might surprise yourself :-)


Yup, if he's BPD, one or both of his parents were probably either neglectful, or abusive.

Hmmm, when I read this, I got a bit angry. From my perspective, the begging, the pouting, and all of the other pressure that comes along with saying "NO" can sometimes be too much to handle. Yes, there have been times when I have given a reluctant yes to my husband only to regret it later. It is very difficult to say no to him when he gets in certain mind sets. He would badger me to the point of me doing whatever just to get him to stop. It wasn't a victim mentality as much as it was, "Ugh, I just want to go to sleep." Or, if he didn't say anything in the moment and I said no, then I have to deal with his pouting and the "funks" that he gets into when I do not give him sex. And, since it feels like I am just an object to him, it doesn't matter if the yes is totally willing or not. All that matters is that he gets what he wants. Since he is an addict, he can use me as his dumpster and still claim to be totally sober.


There is a big difference between a full grown adult and a two year old.  :) In my case, I know that he will be in a funk and that will lead to him being snappy and grumpy with me and the kids. It is really overwhelming at times.


I am a very sexual person but it is impossible to explore anything when you don't feel emotionally safe. In my case, any and all exploration seems to get turned into being about my husband and his needs. When we have tried new things, he will get upset if I say "hey, that hurts" or "a little more to the left". LOL. I don't feel like I can say anything at all so any and all exploration becomes pointless.


I think overly rigid parents can lead to the same thing. I don't think my husband's parents were abusive as much as they were very rigid and were part of a very religious community that had a lot of do's and don'ts that really skewed my husband's perception of human sexuality.

I'm sorry you feel angry. Me too. I'm beginning to understand my w's game when it came to sex. She has a very strong appetite but an equally voracious appetite for blaming her spouse and playing victim. She played me so that I would initiate, she got what she wanted sexually, and also gets to blame and play victim later, by saying it was really a "no". This may not relate to toomanyeggshells' case at all, but it does to mine. BPD and NPD is crazy making when it comes to Intimacy. It's hard to figure anything out.

I don't think my uBPDbf is a sex addict.  I think he's a person with very low self-esteem and feelings of being completely unlovable so the only way he can feel that he's loved or cared about is to have sex.  To him, sex = love.  To him, there is no other way to show that you love someone.  All the every day things couples do to express their love - communication, helping, listening, etc., don't mean anything to him.  To him, its S-E-X every day or "pack your bags and leave because you don't love me". 

To respond to another post, I don't feel like a victim at all.  When I give him what he wants when I'm not in the mood, I know why I do it and that's basically to shut him up.  Then I go about my business and do what I want to do.  If he wants to act like its a transaction (unfortunately without the money), then I can do that.  Its awful that its that way, but it is.  When I really don't want to have sex, I dont.  I know exactly how he'll behave and I'm prepared for it.  I take a book and leave the room or the house.  Unfortunately for him, his behavior on this issue and others has crushed any intimate feelings I have for him so there hasn't been any intimacy or romantic sex for a long while, just some going-through-the-motions sex.  That's just the way it is. 

 

Toomanyeggshells,

Thanks for being part of this board and sharing your r/s (relationship) struggles with us.

What tools from the lessons have you thought about trying or tried for this situation?

It seems you have a pretty good grasp on what is happening and why.  Also that your husbands response is predictable.

That tells me that this "dance" that you guys do around this issue has been going on for a while.

What are the chances that he is going to change his behavior to modify the dance?

What are some options that you have considered but haven't tried yet to "mix things up"... .and change the dance?

Can you describe to us how you would like to be approached for sex by your husband?

Lots of questions... .but I think that with answers to these... .the membership can help you take steps in the right direction.

I've tried alot of them over the last 4 years I've on this site and none seem to work with him.  When I try to validate, he's just screams at me so that ends any hope of a conversation.  I've used SET also to no avail.  Basically, he doesn't want to hear anything I have to say if it's in opposition to whatever he wants.  


Yep, its been going on since the day we moved in together almost 5 years ago.  None of this behavior was evidence prior to that.  He never screamed at me or called me names, he never raged when I spent time with friends or family.  And he certainly never demanded daily sex.  That would have been a major issue even at that time.  If he did, I wouldn't be here today.  


Honestly, and not to sound like a smart-ass, but the chances are zero to none unless he gets therapy and he refuses.


Good question.  I've tried to follow the lessons here.  I've read and re-read them.  I guess I really don't know what other options I have, other than moving out of our house.  I am completely open to suggestions  :)


Another good question that I've thought about.  I'm definitely up for some snuggling together on the couch or in bed to get things going, but, because of his demands, I can't even sit close to him on the couch or cuddle up next to him in bed without him wanting something, whether I'm in the mood or not.  Sometimes its nice to just fall asleep with your bodies touching and that's it - for me.  The dance has turned into this ... .I sit close to him when its ... .okay, yea, let's do this, and I sit on the opposite end of the couch and he gets the message that I'm not in the mood.  I can't sit next to him and have nothing happen.  I've tried and he makes moves and if I say, how about later or tomorrow, it turns into him screaming at me and calling me names.  

I've said to him many times, "can't we just sit close to each other and watch tv without anything going on" and his response is always the same ... .we're in a r/s and if he wants something he should get it.  I'm at my wits end.  

Thanks for the thoughtful questions formflier. Like I said, I'm looking for help so any help is welcomed.  

So... .I'm guessing if we can help you mix things up and change the dance... .you are ready to do that... .right?


And the chances that you are ready to change your behavior?


I'll be thinking about this while you are pondering some of the questions I have posted.  I've got some ideas... .


Can you try to exactly describe what happens and what is said just before... .and when the screaming starts... ?  When does the screaming end?


So... .don't try this yet... .but I want you to consider this.  Maybe practice some... .When he announces how it is... that he should get it... .

"Help me understand how that is? "   say it softly... .make sure it is a genuine question... not an accusation... .not a smart ass question.  Practice it... .

If something inflammatory comes back... .stay soft... .come back with needing help understanding that.

Do not use WHY... .that is a bit accusatory... .a bit like court.

Think about a disengagement strategy... ."you've given me a lot I need to think about... .I'm going to take a walk and think about this... .I'll be back in 15 minutes."

When you get back... .be nonchalant... .bring him a glass of ice water... .don't bring up the issue... .just keep moving along.

Hopefully you get the vibe of what I'm trying to portray... .don't argue... .don't stick around long if he wants to argue.




Good... .I tend to ask lots of them... .   :) :) 

Hang in there... .consider what I have suggested... practice it... .give me some feedback before you try to  do this.

Can you guess why I want you to think and practice before you try it? 

More questions... .   :)

That is the hallmark of being a sex addict. It doesn't matter if he is only having sex with you. If he has a compulsive need for sex, then that could be a sign of sexual addiction. It doesn't really matter if he is an addict or not. But, some of the resources for spouses of sex addicts might be useful to you. Does he look at a lot of porn?

I am wondering if you could start a conversation with him by telling him that you know he likes having sex every day and that you enjoy being with him but you would like to be able to cuddle with him. Maybe pose it as I want to be with you but I want the cuddling too. Phrase it more as "in addition to" rather than "instead of". I am not sure if that would work or not.

I am trying to think of some of the things that I have tried with my husband to try to get some kind of intimacy without it being all about the sex. So far, I have yet to find anything that works for any length of time. I was able to identify one of the things that my husband does that I don't like and that is to want to be physical without hardly any kissing or making out. He goes for the gold so to speak. The last time he tried that, I told him to stop. I didn't want to be with him if he couldn't look at me in the face or at least kiss me. I want him to look at what is above my shoulders, ie my face, my eyes, ME! I hadn't even realized that he was doing that until I started looking for patterns and paying attention to the things that made me feel like an object.

 

I think a lot of these things we talk about are on a "spectrum"... .so... at what point does someone whose love language is "acts of service"... .and likes a lot of sex... .become a sex addict.  Probably hard to tell.  Once it's gotten to the extreme... .it most likely becomes more obvious.

You could start a conversation by complimenting or "noticing" that your husbands love language is acts of service... then follow up with asking him what yours is... .or what kind of "act of service" he can do for you.

Full disclosure:  If you haven't guess... .I'm an acts of service guy... .I like a lot of sex... .and my wife is good with that.  However... .I try to turn it around and make sure she is touched during the day... .snuggled with... .hugged... .and all of that... .because she is a touch person... .

Somehow... .we need to get the conversation going between you two... .and it will be interesting to see the reaction when he understands what you need/want... .and that you are willing to meet his needs... .and is he ready to meet yours.  If there is a  difference... .now you have something serious to talk about... .

Sexual coercion is a symptom of sex addiction, and sex addiction can be one of the symptoms of BPD. All very confusing but I am married to a recovering sex and drug addict that is BPD.  Having personal boundaries with a sex addict and a BPD, is essential.  They will rage about it but giving in doesn't actually help, either.   I hope that you can get some help.  My dBPDh is only beginning to understand that not having sex isn't the end of the world, we can connect in other ways.  He of course, feels that he isn't lovable if we don't have sex but that is confusing love and sex.  This is a common problem for sex addicts, that and they feel entitled to their spouse or partner's body.  I think Vortex hit the nail on the head on this.

Thanks toomanyeggshells for bringing this up.

This has been a topic I have struggled with for a long time. I have had some private conversations with a few from this board, too.

I am not sure if the issues are BPD related or just co-morbid sexual dysfunction.

In my case, it is the reverse of your situation(s). I (the non) have a much higher desire than the pwBPD. Which seems to be the case with all the males I have privately discussed the topic.

I know it is just anecdotal evidence, but seems like we possibly have a male / female divide on this topic, too.

The male side (regardless of BPD status) is we want more! And it is not necessarily addiction, regardless of the amount desired. It is all about the need to feel desired, coupled with the need for release. Two separate things but, in the male mind, we combine them for the most part.

So I struggle with this issue that I can't get what I need. I can't get that feeling that I am wanted or desired by my SO. Affection and intimacy is always on her terms. And her terms are no affection and very limited intimacy primarily based on her mood, hormones, or whatever is.

What makes it so much more difficult is we can't even talk about it. I have tried many different ways. Most recently I tried to discuss what might spice things up for her. What might make her feel more into it. This quickly turned into her being offended. I had to resort to backtracking and heavy dose of validation to avoid the inevitable rage. That was the last time we were intimate.

It would be nice if we could discuss and figure out a compromise. but there seems to be no comprising with pwBPD in either case.

Wanting more does not make it an addiction. I have a very high drive for a female. My husband has tried to tell me that I am a sex addict like him. No, I am not because I do not coerce or pressure anyone to do anything with me. Also, I know how to compromise. I am willing to take one of for the team. If I don't get it, it isn't the end of the world. My desire for sex does not interfere with my ability to be a responsible adult. With my spouse, it feels like he wants what he wants and if he doesn't get it, he is going to be a whiny pouty jerk and he will obsess over it until he gets what he wants whether it is in or out of the bedroom. His desire for sex or some kind of release will trump other things.

Somebody with a high drive that wants it all of the time is NOT an addict. What makes one an addict is the compulsion and coercion. Two people in a healthy relationship are able to talk about these things and come up with compromises where both parties can get their needs met.

That's exactly how I feel.  I am more than happy to compromise on this issue (and others) but he refuses.  Its his way or no way.  He always says to me that he's not going to live by my rules and let me be in charge of everything, but that's exactly what he's doing.  He doesn't understand compromise.  Maybe that's a BPD thing or just his personality. 

I soo agree with this. UBPDbf doesn't act like a responsible adult when he doesn't get sex.  He gets verbally abusive and throws temper tantrums.

I've tried to discuss compromise with him, but its what he wants and anything else doesn't matter.  According to him, being in a r/s means that part of my job as his gf is to give him sex whenever he wants it no matter how I feel at that time.  If I cuddle up next to him and say "how about tomorrow instead", that's not good enough.

Vortex, I totally agree. I think I was trying to make the same points. Maybe not in the best way.

I know plenty of women with high drive as well. So I should stand corrected, maybe not just a male female thing.

The thing that is hardest to deal with is that I  can't have a healthy discussion on this topic with pwBPD, or really just about any other topic. There simply is no compromise. Not sure what to do in the meantime, while we are working things out, or trying to get help, or stepping onto the road of recovery. It will take a loong time.

I am home alone with my wife right now. I could walk down the hall and tell her 'hey I am interested in being with you, how about you, interested"? She would consider that coercion. Which it clearly is not. So I won't even try. For some reason she would feel all this 'pressure'. And I know that I am not alone on this, others have confirmed this same exact issue. I could try to give her a hug or a kiss and see where that goes, but that typically leads to the same thing. 'Get away from me, I am busy'. Other times, but very few, I could NOT do that, and she gets mad that I didn't when I should have.  

As a matter of fact, I did go down the hall, just to get a phone charger. I did not say a word to her, cause I was on the phone with my boss. She was very terse... .'what do you want'? .

It is just so damn frustrating!

I can relate to all of your comments.

Meerkat, you must be reading my hymnsheet, because it sounds like my life. Only, mine has admitted to having very high sex drive. She only waits for me to initiate so she can get her fix of invalidation, by blowing me off. I think her invalidation drive is perhaps on a par with her sex drive LOL

toomanyeggshells, oh to have an adult conversation about this. We can be reasonable, validate eachother's needs and wants, and then work out a co-operative way forward. Good for Stepehn Covey's 7 Habits.

Vortex, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I like your insights especially around being a responsible adult and, no coercion around sex.

Formflier, it sounds like you have been down this road and negotiated your way though to a win/win. How did you do it?

Still a work in progress... .but luckily... .for most of our r/s... .the BPD traits didn't make their way into the bedroom.

They have here and there... .including my first trip through an extinction burst... .wow... .that was hard... weird... .but after it was over and I realized it played out EXACTLY like the lessons said it would... .and some other senior members said it would.

I became a true believer... .

A true believer that there is an order to the disorder... .and that we (nons) need to use that to our advantage.

So... all that was sort of a non-answer... because by and large... the traits have stayed out of the bedroom... .I count myself lucky.

formflier, thanks for the insights. Will need to re-read the Lessons!

Did it stay out of the bedroom because you were both on equal ground there? Meaning had the same drive?

I will speak for myself ( and maybe a few others) that this issue, lack of affection and intimacy, is one of the most difficult to work around and/or live with.

I got BPD, my wife, NPD, and me in the bedroom. It's too crowded by the tune of 2 lol

We are a conservative Christian couple... .so... please remember that because some of the ways we view sexuality can be a bit off putting to others... .

So... the basic gist is that her body is for me... .and my body is for her.  It should be rare that we deny each other. 

For the vast majority of our marriage we both strove for that.

Also... .not that we were scared of each other having affairs (granted... .last couple years there was paranoia about that from my wife... .different story)... .but the best way to keep a partner from going to "eat at a different restaurant"... .is to make sure they always get prime rib at home... .as much as they want.

I think an odd byproduct of paranoia about what I was doing with other women was that she stepped up her game in the bedroom... .and I like a lot of sex... .but sometimes I would end up being the one that wanted to just cuddle... .which... .you guessed it ... .made her more paranoid.  So... .there were some issues there... but by and large... that area was largely untouched.

I do totally get it that getting your ass chewed over something you "think"... .when you don't think that... .and then being expected to hop in bed and get after it... .can be odd.  That happened to me a bunch.

But... .our belief is that sex is a way to reconnect... .a way to bond together. 

So... I focused on that part of it... and kept working validation and lessons on the other part... out of the bed.

But again... .sometimes that was tough.

Hope this helps... .

You need to get that on a billboard for your church! Your membership will tenfold in a couple of days.

I know that is not the message, I just like to kid around.

Laughter is all I have sometimes.

Anyways, thanks for sharing. That my friend really does help.

Thanks for sharing formflier!

I'm realising we all have different stories to write about this. I really appreciate everyone's frank and honest insights.

You need to get that on a billboard for your church! Your membership will tenfold in a couple of days.

Hilarious meerkat. The only problem is that the whole congregation will be male  lol

 

Yep... totally agree. 

The issues that come up in a r/s where there are BPD traits involve intimate things... .so... .good to be able to lay all that stuff out there.

So... .anytime anyone wants more detail or anything on my story... .or all that... .I'm game.

It may be difficult to believe from my posts but that is the mindset that I have always tried to have. A husband and wife should take care of each other in all aspects of life. My husband came from a much more religious background than me. In order to get married in his church, we had to go through marriage prep courses. There was a lot of talk about not denying your spouse and living your vocation as a husband/wife. One of the things that was heavily emphasized was NEVER using sex as a weapon against your spouse. We had to answer questionnaires separately and then compare our answers. During that entire time, the fact that he took care of himself and regularly looked at porn did not come up. My husband can talk a good game and make everyone think that he is the perfect Christian. Our bookshelves are full of books on morality and ethics and relationships. He can read those books and we can talk about them but he is unable to put any of those things into action.


That has always been my way of thinking about things too. So, that is why I was so shocked when I told my husband that I was tempted to stray. Instead of getting upset or stepping up his game, he got excited and encouraged me to do it. He liked that so much that he wanted me to sample a bunch of restaurants. I didn't do it. I only had ONE friend and that was it. I still don't understand that.


That is what my belief was but it became apparent that it was a way for him to soothe himself without any regard for me. And that is where a lot of the problems arise for me. I don't want to deny my husband. I want to validate him but I cannot give my body to somebody that is going to use it and throw it away.

What is interesting is that my dBPDh that is a diagnosed sex addict (even though he spent the majority of his life in sexual anorexia but then swung to indiscriminate sex) feels pressured if I plan sex, in any way.  It has to be his idea or it is too much pressure for him to perform.  I actually have a higher sex drive than he does, but have had more sexual experience and can handle myself like an adult about sex.  He is getting better and starting to understand that being emotionally intimate is what leads to great sex.  Oddly, part of his pathology is that he thinks of himself as very bad at sex and that I am very good.   In this way, he feels intimidated by me sexually.   (Which he used to justify to himself about using hookers for about a year and a half).

Exactly.

This is a boundary issue.  You say NO when you mean no, and yes when you mean yes.  And maybe when you mean maybe.

That goes for the coercive tactics, too. No means no.  If he’s abusive about it…take distance until he has calmed down.  Remember that intermittent reinforcement makes it even harder to break a pattern…and there are extinction bursts if he has become used to even sometimes getting his way by being demanding and unpleasant. 

Yes please, I've got a "From To" in a letter to my wife which reads. FROM: "The sex act" TO "Intimacy, Love, Nurturing and affection", and I have no idea how to get there, or even if a BPD NPD is capable of that.

I have introduced:

- the "Yes" "no" , "maybe" boundary,

- and I am working hard at doing things to help her feel emotionally safe, validation of her feelings.

My guess is... .and I mean guess... .that more sex will help this... .if you can step up validation before hand... .and after.  Try to make sure there is plenty of time... .so that afterwards there is time to talk, snuggle... .relax.

Every r/s is different... .some things you try may not work.  Keep trying.

So... if you go massage oil and gave her a hour long full body massage... what do you think would happen?

 

Should have explained that a bit more.

More intimate conversation usually results in more intimate "powerful" sexual experiences. 

If not rushed... .more sexual experiences result in more intimate conversation... .

So... .in other posts you will see me talking about getting the momentum going in the right direction... and increasing momentum... .

This is perfect example.  Keeping it going means that when you have taken 3 steps forward and then get 2 steps back... .focus on being 1 step ahead... .not the 2 you lost.

More intimacy should lead to less dysregulation... .which leads to ... .more intimacy.

And for all the nons... .this sometimes will seem like a lot of work.  It may not seem fair... .and it's not... .

But many of you have already experienced the satisfaction of thinking your r/s was hopeless... .and maybe you tried a tool just to see... .or gave something "one last try"... .and then you saw a difference. 

A change in the toxic dance that was frustrating you... .

That makes it all worth it.

|iiii

Oh, how true this is!  I thought (minus the dysregulation part) that people understood this about relationships, yet my dBPDh did not understand intimate sharing at all!  This is a new skill for him and I believe it is because sharing himself at all has always triggered such shame that he couldn't tolerate it.

As mentioned, I'm trying to create something new here after 7 months of separation, and I know I'm going to have to lead it down a healthy path if we're going to get there

Thanks for this. The BPD and NPD was very definitely in the bed for us, her approach to sex was. "I just get bored if it takes time. Get busy, get it over with and get back to things I want to do" she really isn't interested in the connection, verbal intimacy. It just isn't on her radar screen of stuff she wants to do. It's a waste of time when she could be busy with something else. I think it's really that simple. "It's not my thing , it's his, therefore I'm not interested". She believes sex is for having children, and as soon as I try to have a constructive discussionn it becomes "You're pressuring me to do it your way"

The intimacy/ sex has always been a proxy battle about the rest of the relationship. I'm going to try and separate the two, like you have. You mentioned you were lucky that it just worked that way.  :)id you discuss it with her before you married?

I'm afraid I put a stop to the momentum. It was time to shake the tree a bit and deal with the extinction burst. I have decided to set a standard for behaviours. She said "But I'm not perfect and it'll take time", so I said, that doesn't change the standard. Everyone makes mistakes. Say sorry, we burn it and move on.

It went a bit pear shaped therafter, but I've needed to set the standard of what I want in a romantic and family  relationship. I'm just plain and simply not willing to live a life of disorder and chaos, for me but especially for the children. It's now her choice

The initmacy seems far away and I'm comfortable with that. In the old relationship, I woulld be the one needy for sex to "fix" the problem and make evryone feel better. The fact that I am happt to have no sex this whole week is a wonderful thing. That alone should be enough to tell her thing have changed fundamentally. I'm not trying to make everyone feel better. Thanks 'Co-dep no more'

I'm doing lots of things to let her know that I care as well. Making dinner, looking after the kids, complimenting her, validating her feelings.

Well... .even if my wife just believed it was for kids... .would have worked out well for me... .  We have 8 children...

We had done some premarital counseling in the church.  We had also talked about what our sex life would be like after marriage.  And there is a fairly consistent message in church teaching that withholding is bad... .sex as weapon or argument settler is bad.

Sex is for healing in a marriage... .because arguments will happen... .that is normal.  Sex is also for deepening a bond... .for "becoming one".

pwBPD traits don't normally like to be confronted with being wrong.  I'm guessing at this point... .about her thought process... .probably wasn't conscious... .but she was much more comfortable finding things I had done wrong and confronting me about that in a church setting... with pastors and pastoral counselors... .than being confronted herself.

"Cutting me off"... would have brought lots of attention to her.

Moselle,

Just some guessing for you... .then stay away from the coupling of sex and intimate talk.  Don't drop it entirely... .but don't let her know it is a focus of yours.

Maybe go for shoulder rub with some talk.  Outside the bedroom.

Again just guessing.  The point is not the physical contact... .the point is getting some relaxation... .some letting down of the guard... .and sharing some feeling. 

Thoughts?

 

Fine to have standards... .just be "gentle" with them.  Focus more on when she met them... .rather than when she did not.

Try to refocus on getting momentum going... .

We had done some premarital counseling in the church.  We had also talked about what our sex life would be like after marriage.  And there is a fairly consistent message in church teaching that withholding is bad... .sex as weapon or argument settler is bad.

Sex is for healing in a marriage... .because arguments will happen... .that is normal.  Sex is also for deepening a bond... .for "becoming one".

Moselle,

Just some guessing for you... .then stay away from the coupling of sex and intimate talk.  Don't drop it entirely... .but don't let her know it is a focus of yours.

Maybe go for shoulder rub with some talk.  Outside the bedroom.

Again just guessing.  The point is not the physical contact... .the point is getting some relaxation... .some letting down of the guard... .and sharing some feeling. 

Thoughts?[/quote]
I think that kind of message to folks getting married is so valuable!

I'm not that thrilled to rub her back to be honest, or show any kind of interest sexually. Being disrespected, shouted at and blamed, tends to put me off.

7 months ago, I would have taken whatever I could get, but I'm not playing that ballgame any more.

I am being very respectful in non-sexual ways, and doing lots of things to help her feel validated

Might be something you have to work through a time or two... .

After three or four times of a back rub... .some talk... .and no sex... .the issues may be separated... .or not.

If that seems bad or triggering for you... .then stick with a glass of ice water. 

Bring in two... .one for her and for you.  "Hey... .just thought I'd give you a quick break... ."  Toss in some validation... .

If she grumps or rages... .leave the water... ."Sorry for the interruption... .a kiss on the head or forehead and out the door... .NO JADEing... .no I was just trying to be nice"

Thoughts?

This is exactly where I'm at.  UBPDbf expects the screaming, etc. to just roll off my back and that I should have wonderful feelings for him and want to be intimate with him in spite of his awful behavior.  After 5 years of it, I can't just put the bad stuff out of my mind and feel all loving towards him. 

I do like the idea of some non-sexual validation through touching. He used to complaint that I never reached out to him when he walked past me or that I never hugged him.  I'm going to try to do some of that and see how it goes. 

As "nons" it is important that we think things through... .and make wise decisions based not on our feelings (who makes decisions based primarily on that?  ) but on what we have considered carefully and that we believe is a wise investment of our time and effort based on what we have learned in lessons and tools.

So... .if you know that you are not in a place to pull this off now... .then move along... .let's find things we can try to see if we can get the r/s dynamic heading in the right direction.

If you do need to move along... make sure you are thinking about what you can do to get yourself to a stronger place... .where you can pull it off. 

Thoughts?

Toomanyeggshells

You have summed up the current state of play in my relationship. Our sex life is a transaction which we perform to prop up my dBPDh's ego. I am unhappy with this and he is also unhappy with this because he knows we lack intimacy and I think it's that he craves but he doesn't understand that all his behaviours outside the bedroom have left me distanced.

MydBPDh is in therapy and in many areas of our marriage we are making good progress but in terms of intimacy and sex we not. This is the area that still gets my husband disregulated on a regular basis. In fact he is hardly speaking to me currently over a 'bedroom incident' (I wasn't respnding in the way he thinks I should).

What I would like is to say to my husband "I love you and I would like us to have a good intimate sex life. However given the last few years I'm not mentally in a place to achieve this at the moment and it would be helpful if I could have some space." He doesn't see it this way though. He sees it as he is in therapy and trying very hard to manage his behaviour and because he is doing this I should immediately want to have sex with him everyday (so should be able to forget everything that has ever gone before.) And it can't just be sex (like you describe above) it has to be full on romantic, intimate, connected, making love sex. I just can't manage this at the moment because I don't really feel intimate and connected in any other area of our lives.

I don't feel like I hold grudges or resentment towards him but I do feel that I am a different person to the one who entered this marriage and I need time and space to come to terms with this and to come to terms with who my husband is. I can't just flick a switch. I don't feel safely supported and loved in the marriage (yet - I hope this will come because he is definitely trying to change).

Sorry for rambling. It's just that we seem to have the same problems in this area and it's helpful to be able to express it somewhere.

many thanks

PT

PeppermintTea,

Have you tried to break this into smaller "steps" with your hubby? 

He is taking steps towards getting better by going to therapy... .but it's not "fixed".

So... it would seem reasonable for you to take steps towards the sex life he wants... .but maybe he doesn't get the full on treatment he is demanding all the time.

Seems like since you want space that he should be ok with that some as well.

I would try to stay away form "either/or"  black and white type of choices... .focus more on compromise.

Compare it to what he is doing... .but compare gently... .

Make sense?  Thing this is worth a try?