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She is intent on making me the bad guy. Everything I do or say is turned against made out to be sign of my tiny heart, or cheapness or misogyny or patriarchal mindset. I cannot help but start hitting myself when she starts name calling it has become easier and easier and I know feel relieved with physical pain. I think I need help.

Hey sam_the_wise, glad you reached out. It can take a lot to be honest with others about hitting yourself. It's a really good thing that you can observe those behaviors and recognize that it's a sign you need some more help and support -- what that tells me is that your rational mind wants to protect and care for you.

sam_the_wise, can you remind me if you have a counselor or therapist?

Let's get through tonight, one step at a time.

Sam, We understand here. Truly the most important I need you to hear from me and take to hear is to be kind to YOU right now and take care of yourself. You will see I trumpet this rather frequently on the boards. There is good reason for that...both things are taken for granted and often the 2 things that go out the window when they shouldn't.

My friend, I know you think think the physical pain is relieving you, but I assure you it is temporary and it is a situation where the mind is focusing on a different sensation...physical pain and not emotional and mental pain. Thus the "relieving feeling" is fleeting and what you are left with is actual pain and potential damage.

You are on emotional overload and its got you warped. It happens. You are human. What you are going through right now is too much. Please seek help. You need to see a professional who can provide you with one on one support. You cannot hold all this in and let it cause destruction. We care about you and we want to see you get better and get healthy.

Please keep us updated and again...be kind to YOU and take care of YOURSELF.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

Sam, how are things now? How are you doing, are you safe?

I don’t think I am safe. It was not that bad for a while, I am feeling like this again, with her saying how bad I am to her and how I hurt her.

How is tonight looking? When you say that you don’t think you’re safe, is that long term, or also short term (like getting thru the night)?

Keep chatting with us as much as you need to. Really glad you checked in again.

It is same. She is accusing me of things I didn’t do. Making outrageous statements about me. I started listening to that audio book stop walking on egg shells and I am even more angry. Do the authors even know what they are talking about, they say don’t listen quietly but don’t defend, deny, counterattack or withdraw. What the heck am I supposed to do!

Hi Sam,

At this stage, I am hearing that she is verbally attacking you and not physically attacking you?  Is that correct?

My name is Rev and I am here to stay with you.

Are you physically safe?  If not, are you able to withdraw to another part of where you are living (home / apartment)?  If not, are you able to leave altogether to get some distance?  

At this stage, based on what I am reading, space and time, to bring things to a neutral place may be best. If the book is not working for you, place it aside. What is most important right now is your psychological and physical safety.  

What do you think?

Rev

I’ve heard some categories of pwBPD described here — probably from the work of Bill Eddy. The categories are:

-generally cooperative, not dangerous
-not cooperative, not dangerous
-not cooperative, AND dangerous

My H’s kids’ mom is category 2: not cooperative, but not dangerous. It’s possible that the advice from the SWOE book is directed towards interactions with Category 2 pwBPD. She is very difficult to interact with, but not physically dangerous.

I’m wondering if your W is Category 3 — not cooperative, and also dangerous.

If that’s true, the you may need to consider doing less from SWOE and more of a “safety plan” approach. A good place to start is taking the MOSAIC Method assessment at www.mosaicmethod.com — the results can help you understand your situation better.

(Edit — cross posted with Rev)

Thank you for responding everyone. I really appreciate it. No she is not physically attacking me. That’s not her approach.

I am not home now. I am on site but she calls and yells and blames me for destroying her life. If I detach with love and take time out she blames me for abandoning her the next time we talk.

If I listen she leaves no stone unturned to hurt me. She accuses me of things I didn’t do and wants me to internalize it and then blame me for lying to be a good person to get married to her.

What am I supposed do here? She berates me like I am a criminal. How do I empathize and validate that? If I say I understand this is how you feel……she says she doesn’t feel that it is a fact…if I don’t agree I get abused more.

Thanks for checking in.

It really seems like you are in a no-win situation with her.  And so, what if we were to look at this from a different angle - in the sense that your questions are directed at changing her behavior.  This does not seem to be an option right at this moment.

What do you need for yourself - or rather - what is it that you want for yourself regardless of what her wants/needs are?  I am not suggesting that she doesn't factor, just that we approach this from a different focus.

What do you think?

Rev

PS - How much time do you have before you get home?  What do you mean that you are on site? Does that mean you are at work or something like that?

So Sam...honestly no one can tell you what to do. We can make suggestions and we can guide you the best we can. However, at the end of the day you are the captain of the ship.

So in the spirit of my brother Rev's take on things let's go with a different angle/approach here. What we need from you...

Still continue to vent, but I want to hear a focus on what YOU want not what you think your partner wants. Also, I want to hear what goals you have and what you think you have to do to accomplish those goals.

The point here is to have you conversing and getting the weight off your chest, but at the same time simultaneously shifting focus to other things which are taking a back seat. The only way we can help you is by focus on your mental health from multiple aspects not just your relationship.

Now something I want you to take some time on...how do you feel your relationship is yourself? What areas of opportunity do you think would be the best to focus on?

Now understand that I am not minimizing anything else, but rather taking a different approach. You are in a bad way so let's start small here and see what we can come up with? Sound like a plan?

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

I don’t want to be accused of things I didn’t do. I don’t have any big dreams. I just want a normal day in my life where I don’t feel like I am being trampled and then made to feel bad for reacting or wanting the pain to stop.

Everyone including that book says it is not in your control what she does. But if I don’t listen and I am in much bigger trouble later.

She called me and started name calling and profanity. I asked her to stop and not do it. I know how this plays out. I will be called even more names and profanity later. If I exit the situation I am called names and even more profanity. She is my wife so there is no escape.

What I don’t get is how can anyone say empathize with the BPD person and stand for yourself. BPD person is intent on bringing me down, I empathize with that I cannot stand for myself.

Like tell me “at the onslaught of name calling and profanity” what am I am supposed to say and do? Reading that book is feeling like I am responsible for being treated like this because I didn’t set the limits or boundaries.

So lets focus on the idea of escape. What does escape entail for you? Define that in your terms. Some other questions...do you belong to anyone? Does anyone own you? Are you an object?

Hey my friend I understand the pain...I do. However, I cannot magically make it go away...I wish I could for you no doubt.

With that said...Take some time here and do this for me. With your next response describe yourself and your personality prior to your partner, early stages of your relationship, mid stages, and then describe the now. This is an exercise so do not put too much pressure on yourself...reflect and put down what comes to mind (I promise there is no hidden agenda and there are no trick questions, no right or wrong answers). Share as much as you want to or as you deem necessary.

I will check back in tomorrow when I have a chance my friend. Keep your head up and know we are here for you.

Please be kind to you and take care of yourself.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

I'm just going to second every word of SC here.

I'm up for a bit if you need to continue posting.

I hear your pain too. We've both been there ... many of have. Abusers need to be told to stop. If they don't, then we need to support each other in getting free.

Hang in there.

We're in your corner

Rev

Prior to my partner or in early stages, I thought of myself as a sensitive and empathetic person. I was kind and honest with everyone who I interacted with. I felt good about myself. I wanted to do things that make me happy. I didn’t judge myself too much. I was not exactly happy before meeting her as I was going through a break up but when we started seeing each other online I was the happiest person. I felt I can be happy and can give happiness to her.

But since the moment she actually met me in person she had her doubts, I have ADHD which we know just now but she saw me messing things up and she was always on the fence about whether she loves me or attracted to me or not the moment she actually saw me. She never accepted me. She was unkind and nasty at worst and obsessed with her own grief about me being a messy person at best. We had good moments but they were always marred by her dissatisfaction with me.

We had one big fight when I entertained idea of having my parens visit for a few minutes which is in contrast with how I said that I want to keep them out of our lives. I immediately apologized and tried to reassure her that it was a just stray thought and I don’t have any lingering need to do that but she took that as my betrayal. I am now a scammer who lied to get married to her because she came onboard thinking I am an independent person and not under thumb of my parents, how typical Indian men are. I denied, defended, counteracted and now I am totally disassociated with her on this issue. This happened last June. It is been a year and her feelings about this are getting anything but stronger. She calls me liar, scammer wants me to own my truth which is that I want my parents to be totally involved in the marriage, that I am a misogynist, patriarchal person. She is like you created scam where you made me believe you are not all that but you have now revealed yourself when you expressed that idea last year. Even though I have completely cut of my parents from her from beginning. She has met them total of 4 times and not more them 2-3 hours at a time. I never said she should meet them or neither showed any signs that I desire that they get along, she misconstrued every single thing before and after that June incident where I entertained the idea of them visiting. I don’t have any desire to be with my parents or family whatsoever, coming to USA was my escape and I love it here that I am away from them. I want to keep it like that. That’s what I told her and now she thinks all that was scam and a lie and she cannot trust me anymore.

What this does to me is she is always in foul mood, there is no intimacy, fun or even peace. She is constantly accusing me finding more stuff in past putting it on me. The moment I get off work I have to listen to this. She doesn’t do what she is supposed to do, she flunked her classes, On campus job and I am in general under pressure of thinking how we are going to pay for her education if she keeps doing this. She just doesn’t care about anything. She blames me for the loss of health since last year. It is hostile environment. Feels like I am in hell and there is no respite.

The book says the BPD person has right to acknowledge
Right to emotional support encouragement and goodwill from the other -does my wife then have right to my emotional support, encouragement and good will when she is accusing me of never being attached to her or loving her?

Book says she also has right to have her feelings and experiences acknowledged to be real, so do I acknowledge that whatever bad things she thinks I am is real? If all that is true how can the author ask me to have any limits here? I am so frustrated and confused.

The book is saying exactly what my wife says that I didn’t acknowledge her feelings and experiences to be real.

I want someone to tell me how do you do both, acknowledge whatever they are accusing you of is true and yet not kill your self worth or violate your limits. Also,” I understand you feel this way and I know how much it hurts” doesn’t work for her if I am not begging for her forgiveness and admitting every single vile thing she is accusing me of. The other option is just exit the situation, I have been called names and made to fill guilty for abandoning her when I did that. No wonder I want to kill myself. That’s the only escape.

I have been called selfish for using I statements when I did that.

Hey there my friend...  

What say you that we put the book aside for just a moment. It's pretty obvious to me that the book is not a great fit for your situation. I must admit that it wasn't a great fit for mine either.  Perhaps, as things are evolving, parts of it have become outdated.

There's something else I want to share with you. I don't know if this will resonate. But I am going to share in the hopes that you and I might connect - not in the details of my story needing to be just like your story - but that our suffering and the abuse I experienced in my relationship  hurt me just like you have been hurt.

I connected with people here. It gave me hope and it gave me permission to be really angry with her for everything she did to me - and bit by bit - no longer own it.  I kept connecting here. And gradually my friends began to believe me about how bad it was.

Today - four years later - here I am still connecting.

Dude - I feel for you.  

I just want you to know that you are seen here.


Keep reaching out.
Rev

Sorry, I am confused - Did what exactly? 

And being called selfish - classic way to kick a person when they are down.  I am sorry that happened to you.

Rev

I have started keeping calm and firmly asking her not to hurt me, she is like if you are so weak and selfish why are you even a relationship, if you don’t want to get hurt. She said she will be calling a divorce lawyer tomorrow and may borrow money from someone and just go to India. Constantly saying how her ex was better and how I am a typical man is her favorite thing to say. She knows I get triggered by that.

And she is like I am her oppressor because of what I said in June and after that I fought with her as I didn’t agree with whatever she was accusing me of being. So she thinks I am tone policing and I don’t have any right to tell her to not mock or insult me.

What is the impact to you if she just leaves back to India?

You've tried the validation resources here and you don't feel that they're helping, yes?

You're depressed (maybe not as a Dx, but temporarily) enough to think about suicide. I felt SI in my relationship and it's tough to deal with those feelings while at the same time looking for a solution to save the relationship. Internal conflict meeting external conflict sucks, to say the least.

You've only been married a little over two years.  Pondering suicide is not healthy, yet you are in an exceedingly distressing dilemma.  Sadly, odds are that it will not get better, and even more sadly it is likely to get worse.  Learning the skills, tools and strategies our site shares is fine for a start, but it seems you need to do more than manage the demeaning remarks and accusations.  It is evident she is determined not to stop her verbal attacks.

I'm new to this discussion, but I've been here for many years.  My own spouse also said terrible things to me.  I started a difficult divorce and afterward was in and out of court for another six years struggling to parent when finally the court decision - in writing - acknowledged she was wrongly disparaging me.  Sadly, though my family court commented she needed counseling, it did not require her to do so.  The consensus here is that courts do oversee the unwinding of marriages but they never try to fix the spouses' mental health issues.

The one option I don't read you pondering (at least in this topic chain) is whether ending the marriage and "escaping" her disparaging attacks by means of divorce is something you've considered.  Would getting permanent distance be something to help you recover?  It's not an easy process and if you have children together then it would also be more complicated.

What do you conclude is an adequate strategy for improving your future?


I had written my above post and just read this, so here are my thoughts.

(1) If her ex "was better" than you, then why is he her ex?

(2) She just gave you a heads up that she may take her aggressive attacks to a legal level, claiming you are the problem.  Quite possibly she is already planning to make you her next ex... but on her terms.  Pay attention to her words of notice/warning and get some inexpensive consultations with experienced family law attorneys in your area.  You don't need to immediately hire one while you get local insights and legal advice.  Learn both what to do/say as well as what not to do/say before, during and after a divorce.  Based on what she has done to you thus far, you need to protect yourself.  Buckle up and get prepared.

This is a short marriage - two years.  Many of us here took much longer than two years to figure out how bad it was and what to do about it.  There is a legal "escape" available to you.

Sam, I'll be checking in on you today. Unfortunately, I hit the wall last night and the grim reaper of sleep came for me and I had to pay my sleep debt. LOL.  :)

Anyway, I'll be around.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

Sam, so something I want you to work on...try to get away from the book. I understand emotionally what you are doing is looking for an anchor to keep you grounded trying to make sense of everything. While the thought process isn't bad in the sense it provides some sense of solace and direction it is a detriment in the sense that you will keep going back to the book and treating it as gospel. The book is not the end all be all and not like an oracle as in an answer of absolution.

So, why do you feel there is no escape? Why have you stayed in the relationship? What I am looking for here is a little extra thought. There is right or wrong answer.

Additionally, I think we have to get to a place of where you want to live for YOU. I see too much of your life's direction being at the mercy of someone else or something else. It is your life to live and each and every decision you make is YOUR choice.

Some people just don't mesh so don't try to stick a square peg into a round hole. I mean for example...there are plenty of people who are not a fan of me, even some cousins or relatives. However, I honestly don't give a S :cursing:. Know why? If you try to please everyone you effectively please NO ONE. In essence, I focus on my own happiness and focus on how to improve and enhance my life. So the friends I do have that I click with I put in more effort and cultivate deep meaningful bonds. Quality over quantity 24-7-365. My more immediate family I am close to as well. However, there is a running theme behind it all here...even those who don't like me respect me. I strive to build my relationships around that more than anything else. I am liked, loved, and hated, but you would be hard pressed to find people who do not respect me. The point is that as long as there is respect you can always work together to find common ground and not let negative energy dictate your interactions.

Now use that just as an example and framework. In no way shape or form do I expect you to follow my words blindly or do I expect you to magically be like me. No, my friend I just want to provide perspective to help improve YOU and enhance your life. Maybe you take some of what I have said and use it to your own benefit. That's what friends do...we help make each other better. There are always multiple paths to take to achieve goals.

Also, I urge you to pay attention to what FD said here prior to me. Truly a phenomenal resource here and a lot of the time what he has to say lines up with my thoughts as well. Actually, his thoughts or questions were pretty much what I was going to mention so please take the time to heed his words.

Ultimately, what I see here your self-worth is not being destroyed by her. She is adding onto it yes. However, you already selling yourself short. That is what I see. So, let's start there. What would help you love yourself more and when you respond I have a rule and requirement...no mention of someone else as being a part of the equation of loving yourself more. This is a YOU thing.

I am around today. As you may have noticed we are all here for you and we all have your back.

Cheers and Best Wishes My Friend

Hey buddy, I'm just hopping in the conversation and hopefully I can help.  You're getting great advice from others and our main goal is to help you focus on yourself and your immediate needs.

What the book was pointing out is that you can show empathy that your wife is hurting, but not acknowledge what she's accusing you of.  For instance, she feels betrayed that you reached out to your parents- the only important part there is that she's hurt and feels betrayal.  Regardless of whether it's true or not, she's hurt just the same.  So you empathize with that, without digging into her accusations.

One thing that I do have to add here is that it is not right for her to isolate you from your parents and family.  You should have a relationship there while also enjoying your independence away from them.  What she's asking is unreasonable and it is not your fault that she feels that way.  So stop apologizing for wanting to have your parents stop by.  You did nothing wrong there and you HAVE TO stop defending your actions.  The problem is her mental illness, not your family.

So again, show empathy that she feels betrayed, and focus on how that was not your intentions.  Do not apologize for wanting to speak to your parents. You love your parents and they love you.  It's normal to have a relationship with your parents.  Only talk about your wife's emotions and how you're there for her to support her.  

The later part of the eggshells book talks about boundaries, and this is a big part of a BPD marriage.    You can support her all you want, but at the same time that doesn't mean she gets to abuse you.  When it's time, draw your line in the sand on this one and let it know that the verbal attacks are not okay.  When it starts, walk away for a bit and let her cool off.  Or go visit a friend for a bit, go grocery shopping, whatever.  You have to make it known that screaming at you and calling you a bad person are not acceptable.

I hope that helps, so sorry you're going through this.

Sam I just want to tell you that you aren't alone. My situation is very similar to yours. I've read all the books as well, and they mostly make me say "yeah right". I've been known to smack myself in the side of the head in a rage to try to calm myself down. It's all very infuriating. Just know you aren't alone.

I had another incident. It was going well. We were camping. We were on a hike it was a perfect day and she started accusing me of being dishonest person for how I handled aftermath of the whole parent incident. As the book said I didn’t empathize with her when she was hurting, as I was not able to get over all the accusations and blames. I was calm but when She snapped at me for something different I lost it. She accused me of being arrogant for no reason. I pleaded with her explained her what I was saying.

She is again said I didn’t empathize with her hurt when she felt despite what my explanation is. She was running away at night out of campsite in dark. Wanted to drive to home in dark of night. I didn’t let her because it was not safe. She made us move camp at midnight. I was so angry that I just threw away the tent, sleeping bag and mattress. I ate dirt, hit myself. I am so ashamed of myself.

To answer your question, why I am in this . I am in guilt of leaving her and all the mistakes I did in past: I feel obligated to support her and when I don’t I feel the guilt.

I think I am going mad

I wish I was calm and firm and then just validated myself later by eating a sweet or something. I wish I had not lost control. Now I am roiling in guilt like never before and she knows too.

I don’t want to be in public place where she is upset and I am begging her and pleading with her to reconciled. I feel helpless and angry because I have been those situations a lot. But she says if you love a person it is not a problem to be in situations like this. It is my job.

Why I am such a failure…

Hey buddy.  It feels like you really need a dose of some tough love, so I'm going to give it to you as lovingly as I can.  You love someone suffering from a mental illness, which means that the relationship will rarely be "fair" in terms of emotional support.  You have to be the bigger person, but when you try and fail, you're inflicting self-harm. 

That's no good, my friend, because you're worth more than that.

You are not a failure in any way, shape, or form.  She is sick and it's not in your power to cure her.  Only she can do that with proper treatment (and possibly medication).  What's happening in your relationship is not fair, and you really have two options here:

• Continue to try and blame yourself when things go badly
• Walk away, mentally reset, and put yourself first for a bit

Nobody here can tell you what the right answer is, but you have to stop blaming yourself and harming yourself.  My friend, you HAVE TO talk to someone local about this, whether it's a relative, a counselor, or even a pastor.  This is not your fault and you have to accept that, you need some support buddy and we can only do so much for you anonymously on the internet.

I am such a pathetic person. I hate myself. I fail her every time.

She is right in what she says. I am not a good person. I don’t show empathy to her when she feels that I have done something wrong. I want to be proven right at any cost. I have a big ego, which is destroying my life.

You or your ego or your whatever she finds fault with is not destroying you.  Actually *she* is destroying your life.  While your life before meeting her was not perfect, it probably was reasonably normal, right?  So what changed?  She came into your life and everything became your fault.  And nothing you do will convince her that all her complaints are not your fault.  The only way 'out' is to undo the past few years with her.  You know by now she won't change.  It's up to you to change, and part of that is to accept your limits, she is unhealthy for you.

She is saying disrespectful things.  She's not truly accepting apologies.  How can you know?  You shouldn't have to apologize for the same things over and over again.

Here's another perspective.  You're both in pain.  But who is more active in hurting the other?  Have you heard of the sins of commission and the sins of omission?  While both are problematic, aren't hers more like the sins of purposeful commission and yours more like the sins of inadvertent omission?  The two are not equally comparable, IMHO.

In years past I read that BPD was considered a Blamer's disorder.  Blame shifting is another related phrase.  Sure, she has distress but not everything is your 'fault'.  It's not fair for her to dump all this onto you.

Have you pictured yourself as having an invisible shield (or impervious umbrella) where her callous remarks and biting criticisms - her sensitivities -  bounce off and can't harm you?

FD thank you so much for talking with me. I understand your point but I just can't get the balance of not letting her words hurt me and be empathetic. If I am doing former I always come off as smug, arrogant man who doesn't own his mistakes and if I do later I just acknowledge how I have wronged her like I am doing now and make all kinds of promises. It's all me. I need to take a stand here and choose a side and be consistent. I have fears, guilt and obligations both ways.

I do imagine the sheild. I kept repeating 3 Cs and 3 Gs .I can’t cure it, I didn’t cause it and I cannot control it. Get of their back, Get out of the way. Get on your life. However, every so often when she starts talking about how I didn't do right by her, I can't hold the shield. Her words get to me. The situation gets to me. I feel hopeless and helpless and I myself rage and abuse myself. I want to abuse myself more than she can. If she throws something at me I pick it up hit myself more with it. If she says I am bad, I say even meaner things about myself out of frustration which does nothing to give her empathy. It is very shameful afterwards, to think about the things I do and say. I am feeling maybe I am BPD or some other disorder.

Come to think of it after initial outburst. I just wanted to go to the tent and sleep. She wanted to talk and make me understand that what I said and my tone was arrogant and despite what my intent is words hurt. I refused to accept that I meant or said anything like that. She just took off from the tent and started running in the dark towards the road and I was calm but she said she wants to die and me to die too and threatened to sue me and my parents. I got paranoid, angry and I acted out. I asked her for divorce she got all emotional and hurt. She started to show me how it is all my fault and I shouldn't be the one asking to be out. I need to be humble and I have no humility.

I don’t know what to think anymore. She is in the other room, all depressed and broken. I am so ashamed of myself.

Many, if not most, people with BPD (pwBPD) are expert manipulators.  They've had many years to practice on others.  They can sense our weaknesses.  And they use our weaknesses to manipulate and control us.

Maybe she is distressed.  Maybe.  We're not there to experience contact with her.  But the negativity is very evident and overwhelming.  Despite all her repeated claims to want to commit suicide... she's still alive to this day.  Ponder that.  She's whipsawing you all over your emotional depths but she's still around.

Though she's not met a single one of us here in peer support, she's likely had prior relationships.  Probably she's shared them with you.  And they're all ended relationships, right?  Oh, and all of them were absolutely horrible men, right?  Really?  All of them?  And initially she said you were so different from them?  Yet now she's driving you into the depths of despair? ... Do you see a pattern here?  Once she has her target in an obligated relationship such as marriage, she then tears you apart, then when it is finally over, she moves on to the next victim.

How close to the reality was the paragraph above?  Can you see it's all about her, yet she manipulates you to believe it's all about you, it's all your fault.

But it's not all your fault.  Sure, you're not perfect, but you're not a horrible person either.  The problem is she's letting you hold on to that reality.  Every time you make a stand, she literally must tear you down until you're a shamed mass of guilt.

You can't help her.  You've tried and tried and failed.

You can't explain/defend yourself.  You've tried and tried and failed.

She is toxic to you.  There's an old story about a about a frog and a scorpion.  Scorpion begs help to cross a stream.  Frog helps the scorpion but gets stung once they've crossed the stream.  Frog is dying and asks, "I helped you. Why?"  Scorpion replies, "It's what I do."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcSyHA8UngQ

Sam,

You are a good person.   It may not feel like that right at this moment today, but you are a good person.   I can see you are a good person and so can the others who are here chatting with you through this board.

I can see how hard you trying to do the right thing.   and how hard you are trying to make things work.

Here is what else I see.    She has a strong undeniable need to blame you for everything.   This keeps her emotionally safe.    If it is 'all your fault' she doesn't have to take responsibility, or face consequences.    She has a deep deep need to make you the bad person so she can be the good person.  It's really as simple as that.

You have a deep need to be recognized as the good person.    To do the right thing, to take responsibility, to care for, to make better and have that acknowledged.

These two needs - Her's to make you the bad person so she can, by comparison be the good person.   and yours's to be recognized as a good person who acts in good ways, are in direct opposition to each other.

She cannot give up on her need because she has a shame/blame based disordered where she literally cannot tolerate not being absolutely perfect.  You would have to share with us why you so desire her recognition of your inner qualities.

you two are locked in a struggle of who is the bad person and who is the good person.    the struggle goes on and on and on, until one or both of you collapse emotionally and act out.   

The trick is to not engage in this struggle of who is good, who is bad, who is at fault, who is right, who is wrong.  Do not engage with conversations that are only about your supposed faults.  Do not engage with conversation about how you didn't do right by her.    These conversations never get you anywhere.   They have never resolved anything.    They don't improve anything.      Allowing yourself to be verbally abused does not make her any better.   

You need a break from this cycle of conflict.   So does she.   I am not saying it's going to be easy.   Distancing ourselves from the type of verbal abuse that you are experiencing is hard.   We can help walk with you through this.

How are you today?

'ducks

Hey Duck, thank you for your kind words. It is hard to believe them right now, because I think I have messed up. I keep cycling through these states where I go back to feeling unfairly treated and regretting it all when I act out and see the effects.

You are right. I need to break this cycle. Although your suggestion of not engaging in such discussions or arguments is what she blames me for. In her view I made mistakes, she has now come to point where she has almost forgiven those. However, my resistance to blame, and name calling is what she hates me for. She says I am apathetic, arrogant and cruel. I don't know what to do here?

She sent me long messages last night about how I never loved her. What do I say to stuff like this,.

“I thought you’d never leave my side. Thought you were my best friend, my lover, my soulmate, but you don’t even love me. You resent me for who I am. You don’t like the person I am.”

Thank you FD for the perspective.

She says no one but her can be judge of how bad I am. I have self worth issues, and even with everyone here saying I am a good person, I cannot believe it. For one thing maybe you see me as good because, you never heard her part of the story and I have been painting only my good side. She says I am a child and I never  supported her and it is hard to shrug it off.

Right now I am at the point again where I crumble and make promises to her which I cannot keep. It is hard not to do that. If I don't do it I am just the person she described me to be, one who never loved her.

Hello Sam, and welcome. You’re getting some wonderful, wise advice here and I hope you are able to use it to improve your situation — or, if nothing else, that it helps you know you are understood and supported here.

So much of what you say resonates with me. When I first came here 4.5 years ago, I, too, felt like a horrible person. My uBPD husband was verbally abusive. He would bring up the smallest, most innocuous-sounding (to me, anyway) thing and berate me repeatedly over it. He would do amazing mental gymnastics to make things my fault.

And I was convinced he was right. I was a horrible wife. A terrible stepmother. I had ruined H’s life.

But none of it was true. Over the years, through the advice and support I found here and through my therapist, I was able to at least somewhat regain my inner self. H is much better than he was (largely because he was willing to see the part he played and to get professional help). But the main thing is, I changed myself. I found that strength and finally heard the voice inside me saying “what he says isn’t true. This is not ok.”

Having that voice made all the difference for me. I felt like I had “permission” to put myself first. To take care of myself. To walk (or drive) away when I needed to. And to let him experience the consequences of his own actions.

It’s not perfect. I still struggle. And we still have bad nights. But I no longer believe it’s my fault,

I hope you can find a way to take care of yourself and start on the road to recovery, whatever that looks like to you. I hope you can find that voice inside that speaks the truth and that it becomes louder than all the other things you’re hearing.

You are a good, caring person. (You wouldn’t feel responsible otherwise.) You deserve to be physically and emotionally safe. And you deserve to be treated with mutual kindness and respect.

You posted after I wrote the above.

The things she says are demeaning and manipulative. No, we’re not hearing her side. But there’s no version of her side that would make her treatment of you OK. That’s just not how a healthy relationship works.

She’s trying to trigger you with her words and accusations and her claims of “everyone would agree with me.” These are things I heard many times. Only when I started to see them for what they are (provocation, manipulation, desperate attempts to control and win) did they stop having an impact on me.

Please keep reaching out. I promise you, the people here care and can help you. It may not be easy. But we can help. We’ve got you.

She is crying now that I never loved her and I am not sure what I can do, if I deny that will be another fight. I just cried with her and had to leave to catch a flight. I feel like a criminal. When she was raging trying to do dangerous things I said very cruel things like “don’t be my responsibility then do whatever you want”. Safeguarding myself turns me into this selfish monster who is not empathetic and I hate that.

So good that you keep talking Sam.   Nice job.   that's one way to take care of yourself.    |iiii


Can we talk about verbal abuse here?  I am not an expert.   But.   From where I sit you are being verbally and emotionally abused.   can you think about what's abuse and what is an emotional dysregulation?  don't make yourself uncomfortable but just lightly touch on what's abuse and what's someone having an emotional meltdown.   what's the difference?   where is that invisible line in the sand.

when we are chronically verbally, and emotionally abused things happen to how we see the life around us.   Just like Ozzie101 said so perfectly.   We get convinced of things that are not true.   That is how abuse works.

the other thing that happens when we get abused over long periods of times is we (all humans)  try to find ways to make the abuse stop.    being good boys and girls most of us try harder to make our partners and spouses happy.   if we can please the person who is hurting us, maybe they will stop hurting us.   right?    we've all done that to greater and lesser degrees.   many of us have twisted ourselves right into a pretzel trying to make someone happy so they would stop hurting us.


when that doesn't work, when we can't make the abuse stop, we try to find ways to take control of it.   and when I say we, I really mean all human it's human nature, the way we are wired.    when the abuse gets so bad you can't stand it anymore you participate in it.   because it provides a sense of control.    after all, you are in charge of what stops and starts now.   it's a coping mechanism.    it's not a good coping mechanism  *) but it's a way to cope.   it has to be scary as hell to reach the point of interpersonal violence where it feels better to turn it on yourself rather than allow someone to do and say things to you.

I know that's a lot to absorb.   so I hope you are still hanging in there with me.   take a couple of deep breaths.


I don't believe this is true at all Sam.  Not even a little bit true.    The old saying is I shouldn't have to set myself on fire to keep you warm.     Safeguarding yourself is step one to breaking this cycle of conflict that is injuring both of you.   Safeguarding yourself puts you in a better position to respond positively when there is an emotional challenge.   Abuse is never okay.    Never.     You are not a bad person.    and her calling you one is a way for her to obtain and maintain control and power over you.   when she abuses you - you do what she wants until you can't stand it anymore.      trying to make her happy so the angry hurtful wife retreats is an abuse coping mechanism.   she's responsible for her feelings.    not you.    if you were truly all these things, she is calling you, why is she still with you?    why hasn't she taken steps to change things?   

the answer is because she is getting something out of this relationship.   she is getting a place to dump all her negative and painful emotions.   on you.   she is making you responsible for everything she feels and does.    and that's not right, its not even possible.

'ducks

Babyducks is sharing a lot of truth.

It is very hard to see people we love hurting. I’ve been there. It’s natural to want to take that pain away.

Here’s the thing (and I understand, from experience, that you may not be ready to accept this yet): no matter what she says, you didn’t cause the pain. It’s far deeper than that and predates you. Also, you can’t fix it. As ‘ducks points out, it’s very common for the pwBPD to latch onto something. “If you would just do X, everything would be better/I would be happy.” But it’s a mirage. There’s no “one thing” that will fill the hole or fix the wound. You can twist yourself in knots and be utterly broken down trying to repair something you ultimately can’t mend.

I know that’s not exactly a pleasant thought. But my hope is that you can start moving toward a place where you can separate what’s “yours” and what’s “hers” and eventually find the strength to break the cycle.

Thank you Ducks and Ozzie, although looking at how broken she is all I wanted to do was cancel my flight and make promises again and see that this time I don’t break them.

She doesn’t think what she does is abuse. According to her it is her grief, pain and hurt and she is asking me accountability for hurting her. See, I made a mistake, refused to give her understanding or empathy, she believes the distress she was showing and shock she felt because of my mistake is reason she was diagnosed with BPD and she is not really BPD. Not only that I asked her to take medication and asked her to go back to her place where she goes to college when she had come to visit me as I had too much of fighting and I wanted to end it. She repeatedly asked me to take her back even begged me, I cried with her and I told her we gotta stop fighting, I cannot take it anymore. I was decorating for her birthday and she remembered how I have wronged her by taking a U turn on a key promise of our marriage and I couldn’t take it and I ran away. When I came back for our couple’s therapy session I had the phone on with therapist and I let her yell at me and without telling her that call is on and said she is making me crazy and abusing me. All this happened on her birthday. I took her for granted, when it was her first birthday with me I didn’t do a thorough plan, and didn’t even have a cake as the place where we went to have dinner didn’t give one, they had just brownies. I have wrote about it in my previous post after which I took a break from here.

She thinks I am her oppressor and as an oppressor I don’t have any right to tone police or object to her call for accountability. If I was so averse to that I shouldn’t have made the mistake. I have no right to call it abuse, it is like saying reverse racism, unethical. So me calling this abuse, feeling that I am hurting, making it about me or even thinking of how painful it is and asking her to stop it, or hurting myself to take control is a sign that I don’t care about her. This is what she thinks. Is that wrong?  I destroyed her life. Didn’t I?

I can’t pretend to understand the feelings tangled in the caste system or how that can impact your wife.

But regardless, there is no excuse for abuse of any kind. Even big mistakes do not make it ok for one partner to continually “punish” the other. There are much healthier ways to deal with those conflicts.

It sounds to me more that she’s playing the “blame” game — shifting all responsibility/accountability for her own actions into you, thereby attempting to avoid consequences. This is a very common thing in BPD relationships and many of us have experienced it. Very common in abuse as well. How many abusive spouses have told their victim “you’re making me do this” or “it’s your fault I’m beating you” or “why do you make me do this?”

It’s not right. No matter who’s doing the abusing. There’s just no legitimate excuse.

She just sent me  messages where she is calling me a misogynist because I couldn’t take her PMS mood swings and asked her not to hurt me. A lot of name calling, long messages full of it. When we were fighting during camping, I told her that begging, pleading when you misunderstood me even when I am explaining what the misunderstanding is, in a public place, is demeaning. I am a prick, misogynist and male chauvinist pig, I so want to start hitting myself right now.

Why would you think you destroyed her life?

A few hundred years ago there was a Czar of Russia who had stomach cancer.    When the pain got to much for him, he would hold his hand over a candle.

Why would he do that?

Because it made his brain focus on something else.

Something that he could control to a degree.   

And he got some relief from the pain coming from some place different.

Hitting yourself won't help long term.   Can you see that?

Yes I can, but I am in too much pain. If I just ignore her, she will be even more abusive and pissed.

You probably don't remember Patti Hearst. She was kidnapped and held hostage by a violent political group.   

She ended up joining the group and participating in their violent events.

Why would she do that?

Because it was safer for her both emotionally and physically to agree with them.

When things escalate between you two, joining her in her extreme thinking and behavior might feel like a reasonable choice but it is the opposite of that.

All I want to do is shut all the contact and have peace. But I know I will get more brutal name calling when I get back. I have done this before. I am facing the consequences till this day. Does this ever stop?

They say on this website I should empathetically listen to the person and not tell them they are wrong. They say, I understand how you feel makes a world of difference. It doesn’t. She yells back at me and says stop being a therapist it is not what I feel, it is a fact that you are all these bad things. Now where do I set boundary and where do I e pathetically listen? I don’t know how to do both at the same time.

No responsible therapist would have a close emotional relationship with a patient.  All your research sounds to her like a therapist's words and that triggers her to resist listening even more. 

I once read an explanation, that the combination of past history with the close relationship makes it extraordinarily for the pwBPD to truly listen to you, your fine intentions cannot get past her emotional baggage of your close relationship together.  It is admirable that you've tried and kept trying, but can you admit to yourself that more trying would still not make a difference?

This observation has been attributed to Albert Einstein:  "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

Though this is the bettering board, there does come a point where even the most devoted of us have to admit we can't fight the reality of severe dysfunctional dangers.  She speaks of suicidal thoughts.  You too are brought to your knees (in a manner of speaking) searching for ways to make your relationship succeed.  It's not, it is failing.  We wish it weren't but that's the reality at this point.

You've never commented thus far, can you venture to ponder whether ending the relationship would make both your lives less frustrating, less stressful and give you both a chance to recover and find comfort away from the triggers that exist between you?

FD thank you for understanding my pain. It is exactly like how you put it. It has just gotten worse, every time I lost my patience and stopped agreeing to her or fought back or stood my ground or tried to assert my limits or boundaries. All that past history is added and it triggers her even if there is nothing happening. She would remember something I said and rage. She calls it her grief, or asking me accountability because I broke her dreams. I said something and didn’t follow. The list is endless.

I don’t want to go yet, because when I tried to do that, I couldn’t follow through. Her heart is in right place. She is just mentally ill. She doesn’t want to acknowledge that but she is. And I don’t want to give up on her just yet. I am frustrated with her but thought of leaving her is too much for me. If she leaves me that’s another matter. I will be happy for her.

Hi Sam,

It sounds like you are finding some personal motivation here. How does it feel to affirm that you have more than one/thought feeling about what to do?  Can you say more about that?

Unpacking that might help you to maintain your own center and help you figure out what you feel is best for you. What do you think?

Rev

So Sam, obviously there is a lot to work on here and there is a lot to unpack. However, first I want to address something so it sinks in for you. Any BS :cursing: you hear that you are selfish or lacking empathy needs to be completely dismissed. How do I know this? I don't need to see you in person, meet you in person, or know all the specifics to know you are empathetic and you are far from selfish because you are here on this board. You would not be going through the feelings you do if you were a true narcissist. You would not pour out the emotion you have here on this board. So please stop letting that narrative enter your mind. Obviously you have a big heart and you care a great deal and you do not treat your wife as expendable. You are not a bad person, you are indeed a good person.

Additionally, the tone of your messages...you are not an aggressive, domineering personality. Your personality seems to be more non-confrontational so you are not the take no S :cursing: this is how it is going to be type. That is completely okay as well. What you have to do is just be YOU.

Right now what I would say is that you are displaying symptoms of Stockholm Syndrome more or less. Almost in the sense like a pet that has been beaten and kicked repeatedly. Because of this your sense of what is healthy and what love is has become warped and subconsciously you are accepting the treatment you are because you believe it is what you deserve and that you are not supposed to do better or have better. Again, we have to work on having you love and respect yourself above all else.

Now before I go further I see my good friend FD has already mentioned this is the bettering board which does mean there are rules and guidelines that have to be followed. However, this is also where I will offer that we can always move your thread to conflicted if necessary for freedom of discussion. I say this for protection of everyone who comments in your thread. We cannot have stay or go/run messages here.

Now continuing on here one thing I want to point out to you. A lot of this chaos could very well be her way of S :cursing: Testing you. She is purposefully being hurtful and pushing you to your limits to see how much you can take and to see how you will react. Now obviously with the behaviors displayed she is mentally ill. However, there could be a scenario where she is looking for you to battle through this and take the reins. Right now she doesn't respect you. Perhaps you have to work toward being respected and then perhaps your situation could improve. Do not take what I am saying here as gospel...I am just offering up a possibility here.

Furthermore, the focus of your discussion needs to be placed upon improving how you feel about yourself and how you view yourself. Beyond that we will get to the rest step by step. Always remember the phrase Rome was not built in a day. This will take some time and we are here to help you.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

Minutes ago I just came across a teaching fable that instantly made me think of your dire situation.

You did well to find, read and inform yourself about Borderline Personality Disorder.

You did fine in attempting to use appropriate communication skills and strategies to heal your relationship.

What you're having difficulty with is accepting failure when sadly it has become very clear your spouse refuses to change her perceptions.  This is not to say she will never change.  As the saying goes, Never Say Never.  But it is very unlikely she will ever change her behavior patterns.  At least, not by your efforts ... you are too close to her in a close relationship that already has a lot of perceived emotional baggage that she simply just can't or won't get past and Let Go.

Therefore, what you have left for yourself is to — at least for now and probably permanently — Let Go and Move On.

https://www.bytesofindia.com/newsdetails?NewsId=5236385521654965353&title=DON%27T%20ARGUE%20WITH%20DONKEYS

FD,

That's depressing. It reminds me of something I read about a father telling his son: "Do the right thing. You'll likely be punished for it. Do it anyway." Cynical? Maybe. But it's about being true to yourself and your own values.

I'll piggy back off big brother Turk here and say FD I find that to be a great reality check. Can it be depressing as big brother Turk mentions...yes 100%. However, it all depends on the perception you choose to use. Which lens works for you, etc.

Thank you as usual for the phenomenal input and sage wisdom FD.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

Hi Sam.  One thing we may not have said in depth is that all of us have been exactly where you are right now.  We didn't have answers and it felt like our world was falling apart.  We had no idea what to do or where to turn.  So please understand that we're speaking from experience when we say that you will get through this.  Everyone here is testament to that.

That’s a great story. I think I can apply it by not letting her hurt my self worth anymore by expecting or putting any effort in proving to her that I am a good man. I will just do what I want and be happy.

Funny thing is if she listens this story she will call me donkey in it.

So now starts not letting her dominate your thoughts. Even with the remark...I fully understand your intent. However, you have got stop worrying about what she thinks and how she feels all of the time. When you do that you just create too much weight upon you and a mountain of anxiety.

You have to take control over you and give yourself the power. How you do this is by not mentioning her as much and not intertwining her into discussion at every turn. While your comment looks and appears harmless enough the point is to not give her so much real estate in your mind. Make sense?

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

I fully agree, this isn't about "what she might think".  Your focus needs to be on "what's best for Sam's mental health", regardless of what she thinks.  You do you brother.

I remember a similar story with my BPD daughter.  A neighbor had a pit bull that stayed in their yard on a chain.  And every day, my daughter would tease the dog on her way home from school knowing she was safe.  Everyone would yell at her saying, "Stop it!  That's mean and the dog is going to bite you."  Not just my wife and I, but even other parents and kids younger than her.  We all knew what was going to happen.

One day, my kid gets off the bus and heads toward the dog, making fun of it and taunting it.  You already know what happened...the dog's chain wasn't fully extended, he lunged at her, and bit her hand.  But you probably can't predict the rest of the story, not yet anyway.

My kid ran home crying, the neighbors ran to help, and before long everyone was angry.  Why was a mean dog on a chain near a bus stop?  Why did the owner not take better care of his animal?  Why hasn't the city removed that vicious dog?  One neighbor actually called the local news station, while others called animal control.  The dog was taken and scheduled to be put down.

In this story Sam, you are the Pit Bull on the leash.  And like so many of us, maybe you had a big bark or a hard bite once or twice.  But the problem was never the dog, or the chain, or the owner, or the bus stop...it was a kid who thought it was funny to be cruel to animals.  Before that incident, I had walked up to that dog and pet it dozens of times.  He was a good boy.  Yet somehow, my kid got all the love and sympathy once the dog did exactly what dogs do when they're mistreated.

There's only one difference from you and the pit bull- your chain is imaginary.  It doesn't exist.  You don't have to just accept the abuse while pointing the finger at yourself.