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So we had a marriage counseling session today. Not a total waste of time, but I think it'll be mostly fruitless... .

It was a traditional blame-fest. I'm the cause of the depression, anxiety, stress, inability to hold a job, silent treatment, and the reason she doesn't love/like me.

Quick question: "uBPD" means undiagnosed? Want to make sure I have the lingo correct.

First joint session (two weeks ago) I was cautioned about my angry, defensive responses. Today it was my calm, impersonal, insensitive responses. Seriously, I live in the no win zone.

Wife broke down when I told the counselor that "she's sick and needs professional help." I gave the analogy of cancer, broken legs, etc... .As examples of being sick/hurt and needing intensive help.

So I guess the word "sick" is a trigger I'll avoid. But instead of discussing the issue, the rest of the session was about "how" I said it (impersonal, insensitive, uncaring) rather than the fact that my wife is sick and needs help.

If there's ever a specific criticism (you do X and I feel Y) she immediately (or up to a day later, unsolicited) responds with a) it's your fault, or b) it's a migraine/health issue that is not her fault.

The counselor seems very intuitive and intelligent, but I think she's trying to work on our communication skills.

I know I'm hyper-sensitive, thin skinned, and high validation myself. But I feel a bit overwhelmed lately.

I spent the 20-minute car ride home getting criticized, and getting more criticism for not reacting to her criticism. At the end she tried to goad me into yelling/cursing (I have a few times in the past). When I didn't she got out and slammed the car door.

Trying to learn/practice SET, not JADEing, etc... .Validation is hard.

Oh, and one of the weirder symptoms was on display on the ride home. The sense of self one. She's "become 20 different people trying to learn to live with me."

It's hard to put everything into words. Thanks for reading this. Just needed to vent. Trying to avoid feeling like the crazy one.

Hi gomez_addams. Your experience sounds familiar to the first several forays into MC with uBPDw and me. I, too, was convinced that nothing remotely positive would come of it. In fact, at one point, the session was such a blamefest that my MC texted me afterwards to share her diagnosis of my wife as BPD - big turning point in my RS. Since then, things have been getting better at MC sessions, primarily because of the lessons I have learned in communication here. So, don't rule out the chance that you can have more meaningful MC sessions. It can happen, once the conflict is reduced a bit. Mind you, they are still a far cry from what I want, but at least my wife is not hostile to the therapist or me for an hour and a half.  :)

Have you read the workshops on validation, boundaries, and SET? I really recommend them. And please keep posting here. Everyone here needs this sounding board, and we want to know how you are doing.

Thanks! I needed that after today.


I've started reading\watching them. Also re-reading some books my therapist recommended.

I'm going to stick with the MC, but for now I'm going to manage expectations.  The counselor seemed to focus more on how I failed to be sensitive to my wife, calling her "sick, in need of professional help", and less focused on the fact that my wife is sick and in need of professional help.  I laid out the issues in my one-on-one with her last week.  I think she's more in tune with the communications issues in the marriage, and I'll freely admit that I don't always "hear" what people are telling me.

I'm glad that I found the whole session humorous.  Normally in a situation like this I'd be beyond pissed... .

Wife: (for 5 minutes) He's XYZ, he doesn't do ABC, he always EFGs, yadda yadda yadda insult criticize blame.

Me: My wife is sick, and needs help.

Counselor: Let's talk about how you are insensitive to your wife.  You just called her "sick"... .

Like a sitcom, almost.  But I'm sure I'll learn stuff, so I'll keep going.  And you never know... .perhaps it'll open my wife's eyes.  I'm a recovering alcoholic (15 years)... .There were people telling me I needed help long before I was ready to hear them.

Hi gomez_addams,

 My uBPDh & I recently started MC also & your session sounds very familiar. I went by myself last time( I didn't remind him about appt in enough time to get ready & go, my fault) & our counselor asked me if my H would be open to trying any meds. As the weekend went on I was unsure of how to approach the subject ,then my H was having an anxiety attack,  that is  usually followed by depression and said "he needed to get on something" and I of course agreed & told him that the counselor had mentioned that very thing.So a small miracle happened,Yippee!

 Unlike you, I have not said anything to the counselor of the diagnosis I suspect. I guess I want her to figure it out, if she hasn't already. We have only been 4 times so far. I too have a very very hard time with validation, It's soo hard to do when you personally don't agree & when the voice inside your own head is screaming at you. I also am the reason for why he does this or acted like that. Do these peeps ever figure out that other people & situations affect them as much as THEY let them? I did not think that after 31 yrs it would be this difficult, but it does help when you can educate yourself as to where it comes from & why. Keep marching soldier!:) ************Mrs.Mclost

 

I have done MC for years... .various degrees of success. 

Remember MC is about the r/s (relationship)... .not the people.

I would stay away from diagnosing your wife... .focus on how actions or words affect the r/s... .focus on communication and the r/s.

Let your wife's issues present themselves... .otherwise... .it will be you attacking... .not good.

Very powerful when my wife kept stating she didn't need individual work and the MC said it would be a good idea with all that was going on... .

It didn't come from me... .and I was already doing individual work.

One thing that I could suggest you do... .is express how you feel after a blamefest... .don't diagnose her... .just talk about how crushed you feel at the yadaa yadaa yadaa... .that will give MC opportunity to turn it on your wife and ask how that helps... .

One of my favorite phrases is a soft ... .gentle... ."help me understand how yadaa yadaa helps our r/s improve... ."

Thoughts?

I would think a counselor (and your wife) would be a lot more receptive to, "I am very worried for my wife.  She has been struggling a lot and I would like to know what I can do to help.  I feel I am not handling it well."  That has been my approach, I was emotional in that I would cry a little but no anger.  Because I was coming across as empathetic and well balanced, the therapists could clearly see what was going on with my dBPDh.  He was not behaving in a calm and empathetic way but erratic and angry.  We were at an intensive and having therapists see that I was not behaving as my dBPDh portrayed me to be, really helped them get a clear picture of what was going on and his illness.

I am currently going to MC.  Most of the sessions resulted in a talking to by my wife afterwards.  I do not want to make generalizations, but it may not matter if you were "insensitive" in your approach; a "talk" may have happened regardless if you were sensitive or not.

I started MC with no real expectations.  I did hope the counselor would see that my wife needs help or anything along those lines.  I did not state my concerns until later at an individual session with him.  He was quite surprised at some of the things I brought to his attention.  However, this did not change his attempt at fixing the communication problems.  At least, that is what it seems his angle is.  He may be approaching her slowly via this avenue to ultimately help her.  I do not know.

It is my understanding that therapists work very hard to build trust with BPD patients but I have also experienced some really clueless therapists.  My dBPDh and I have probably been to a dozen in the last 17 years, most did not get what the issue was and those that did seemed incapable of handling it.  It really wasn't until we went to one of the top facilities in the US, that we were able to get some good direction (BPD diagnosis) and go from there.

This makes a lot of sense.

I'm glad I found this forum.  I'm otherwise clueless, especially in the heat of the moment.

I'll try that.

Practice it some when she is not around.  Concentrate on being soft... .being gentle... .no "accusation" in your tone.

In the heat of the moment you won't be able to think that through... .practice is needed.

The calm and quiet gets labeled "condescending"... .Maybe I am, or maybe I'm not. I am so sincerely trying to be supportive and understanding. I'm working on the validation, and avoiding JADEing.

Today I stayed calm, but when she told me I was condescending, I broke down and cried a little. I felt like I was screwing up, despite my best efforts. I was so frustrated.

I told her I didn't mean to be condescending, and that I wanted to be supportive because I loved her. When she replied (interrupted) that I didn't love her, I ended the conversation. Not sure if that was right, but I needed a break.

She's been trying to get me to hit her (or punch a wall, or yell and curse). No history of violence (at all), although a few angry outbursts from me over the past two years (angry JADEing).

I'm typing on my phone, so I'll cut it short and post a longer thread later from home. Just spent the last two or three hours with a friend from church. He's got his Masters in Docisl Work, so he seemed like the best person to vent to (sympathetic, yet calls me on my BS).

I've got some errands to run. I'll be back online later.

Man, I am overwhelmed... .

This is good... .but see below... .I think you did a bit of jadeing... .


You acted on her "reaction"... .to you staying calm... .BAD  BAD... .  Pick your course of action... .you need to pay attention to what she is doing/saying... but don't "react".  She probably understands that you don't like this... .she accused you of being condescending... .and got the reaction that she was most likely looking for.


JADE alert... . 

My suggestion for the next condescending accusation is to say "I'm sorry your feel that way... "... .  Then announce you are going to get some ice water and bring some back for her... and for you.

Talk about the weather... .your car... .a dishwasher... . 

Anything but argue about if you are condescending or not.

Read up on STOP method of communication when in a high conflict situation.


How do you know this?  Has she told you?  

I'm typing on my phone, so I'll cut it short and post a longer thread later from home. Just spent the last two or three hours with a friend from church. He's got his Masters in Docisl Work, so he seemed like the best person to vent to (sympathetic, yet calls me on my BS).

I've got some errands to run. I'll be back online later.

Man, I am overwhelmed... .[/quote]

We tried MC once, back in June. It was a real fiasco. BPDbf spent the hour denying everything, proving I was wrong, making fun of what I said and basically just making me cry during the entire session.

Indeed "the T works on the relationship not the personalities" is a true statement.

The T provided us with boring general advice such as "do not judge what the other is trying to say" and blah blah blah. I'd been hoping for a professional diagnosis (how naive on my part!) and instead the T rejected everything I said.

I told him that BPD bf was obsessed and panicked about the idea of me running away with baby. T answered "So what? He may be afraid of you running away, what's the big deal about it?"

No big deal... .in fact a few days later this escalated to a real paranoia crisis where he phoned the police, his sister and bro in law, and ended up the next day screaming with despair in our garden. He then left for his parents' and I didn't see him for weeks.

I've just finished reading Randi Kreger's book and it does mention that MC is not advised with pwBPD.

I have found a real BPD specialist and went to see him. He told me that the way he does MC is as follows: BPD person sees him about once a week (and sets clearly defined goals), partner sees him about twice a month, and we then see him together once a month to discuss achievements and problems and whether or not goals have been met.

In fact, it's a clever way to drag BPD into therapy. I have no idea whether it will work or not yet - my BPDbf is meeting T on Monday... .

Will do.  Thanks!



"I wish you would hit me... ." is what she says.  She claims that is who I really am, and that being calm is being phony, and that she would prefer that I hit her.  Perhaps it's a stretch, and that's not really what she wants... .  But ever since I started staying calm she has been getting more graphic in her descriptions of "who I really am"... .

Validate her feeling on that... ."I understand you feel... .xyz... ."

then gently ask her how that helps the r/s?

Mind reading is a tricky thing to deal with... .don't directly confront is as this is invalidating... .

Switching gears

MC can work ... .however you need to be aware that the first counselor may not be a good fit... .or the second... .

The important thing is that you both acknowledge the r/s needs some work and are taking steps to work on that.

Keeps your focus in the right direction.

:) :) :) :)  lol  |iiii

Eventually, 2 weeks later (last Monday) uBPDbf went to see the BPD specialist I mentionned, and *sign of relief* REALLY LIKED him!

I'm curious to know (and I won't) what the T told him, because his behaviour has changed dramatically since then. We're having our first MC session this Saturday, I have no idea what to expect.

I think the T MUST be into BPD, or else he/she will just go about those communication tools that WE (the nons) are the only ones who use them... .so what's the point?

Does this REALLY work?

 

Yes... .

STOP

Sorry you feel that way

That's your opinion

Ohh

Perhaps you are right.

It's a way to participate and not give the silent treatment... .without agreeing... .or invalidating.

IMO... .I avoid the last one... .I don't want to give any hint that she may be right... .unless that is true.

I'm also a fan of "help me understand xzy"  Much much better than asking why...   Why sounds like ... .and comes across as a lawyer or court talk

Thanks Formflier  :)

Indeed the last one is not for me either!

I'll try the rest.

 

Practice this ahead of time... .outloud... .make sure your emotion is even to slightly sympathetic.

Be very careful about having any kind of snarkiness or smart a$$ in your voice.

Thanks - I'd better practice for MC tomorrow... .I'm getting nervous about it 

 

What are you nervous about... .what do you think will happen?  Maybe we can help you prep

The situation is hard. My uBPD is still staying away, and the last times we saw each other, things didn't go well (he's very tense, keeps threatening me with baby and house).

We managed to exchange messages this week calmly, at last. But I've no idea what to expect tomorrow, and our unique MC experience was terrible. Although I don't expect the same to take place (this one knows loads about BPD, and he's seen both of us separately), I've no idea what to expect.

I know that the usual therapy program for pwBPD is weekly sessions, and one with spouse every month.

I don't even know whether BPD's intending to see T every week... .

And I don't know if T has told him about BPD... .

I don't want to sound pessimistic once in there, but I can't sound very optimistic either.

I'm also stressed about the trip to go there, as we're taking the train together, and it takes about 1 hour +.

Hi Indyan,

I'm not surprised you are nervous I would be too, you have had such a lot to deal with, and still are dealing with it all.

It's difficult as you know with MC because there are lots of contraindications for pw BPD who present as more unstable and volatile in general, which is how your husband has been, so I can understand why you would feel pessimistic. 

You say your MC T is aware of BPD so that is positive, be guided by the T, remember it's about the relationship, not you or your husband. Try and think about the marriage and how you feel about that, how it's changed, what you want for your marriage and how that can be achieved. If you are struggling in the session, tell the T, but remember focus on the relationship, not your husband. I hope that makes sense.

Just to say be careful on the train journey, bring a book/magazine, excuse yourself go for a coffee, three coffees  :) keep it as low key as possible because your husbands anxieties and emotions will probably be running quite high.

Take really good care of yourself Indyan.  

 

When you get there... .at the start... .ask what to expect.

Make the commitment in your mind to keep coming back.

Whatever you can do to make sure you don't sound like you are accusing your pwBPD of anything is better.

I need help understanding this behavior... .   is much better than

He does xyz because he has BPD... .

If he tries to dominate the session... .ask the counselor to clarify communication rules... .don't confront your hubby on this... .let MC handle that...

Thank you Sweetheart and Formflier  

Yes, I'd better buy myself a magazine for the train... .and no, I don't intend to talk about BPD for sure.

He and his family have reproached me enough of "saying he was mad".

The good thing is that I trust the therapist. He's a great man, highly experienced, he's spent years working on BPD, is the director of the only BPD association in my country, and provides courses to therapists on the subject... .so if someone should know what to say or not to say, it's him.

The fact that BPDh changed his attitude towards me dramatically after just one session (last Monday) shows how clever and informed the T is... .

But I can't help wondering what BPDh intentions are. Why invite me to the restaurant afterwards? I'll try to be as positive as can be, and not judgemental but it might be hard... .he's gone too, too far.

I've already thought of an answer if T asks what I want/hope from the MC. I'll say "regain trust". As for the rest (marital and family life), I don't hope or want anything at this stage. I had to NOT hope anything in order to survive this chaos.

I also thought of telling the truth like "I know what I DON'T want anymore. I don't want chaos every 3 months or so in my life. I don't want unstable and scary situations for the kids and myself... ."

But I guess that will sound negative, not encouraging enough for poor MPDh *sigh*?

I would shy away from this...

I would recommend "to improve your r/s"

If you are asked for specifics... .then obviously provide them... .

Talking generally is much better because it is harder to disagree with.  Once you get a couple sessions under your belt... .you will get a better feel of how this should go.

Debating facts in MC is a time waster... ."he did xyz... ."  "no i didn't"  etc etc.

Not even "regain trust", wow you're strict man  lol

Isn't "improve our relationship" REALLY obvious? I mean, wth would I be doing there if it weren't to improve our r/s?

Very wise, thanks!  |iiii


Yes, I want to avoid this as much as possible... .I'm too tired of all this.

And anyway, the therapist knows it all already, no need to "convince" him.

When we tried MC in June things went like this:

me: We both agree that he has moods which are very hard to cope with... .

he: ... .so have you... .



he: She says I'm crazy.

me: Not exact. I told him he seems to suffer from BPD, that's very different.

he: Yeah right, now it's BPD, and before that I was paranoid, sociopath, schizophrenic and a narcissic.

me: I did say you were sometimes paranoid, not the rest.

he: You have to understand she's constantly on my back, criticizing me, blaming me. She wants to talk until late at night, when I have to work in the mornings. That drives me crazy.

me: I do believe that you blame me more. And not only you blame me, but you lack respect. After weeks of zero communication, I used to try to talk when the kids were in bed, although I don't tend to do this anymore. Communication seemed impossible,he got angry, banged his head against the wall... .

he: She pushes my buttons.

etc. etc. etc.

I DON'T WANT THAT AGAIN! 

 

Yes... agreed... .don't do that anymore.

There is a good bit of that you your side that you can prevent.

Until there is a diagnosis... .don't mention "having" BPD.

Talk about exhibiting traits of BPD.  Even better... .

don't mention BPD and directly name the trait.

"suggesting things happened where there is no basis in fact... ."

That is nice way to say being accused of things he made up... .

Don't debate it... .just ask him to help you understand how he would think xyz happened... .let him talk about his thoughts... .you talk about yours.

I personal tick of mine is when they say "you think xyz... ."... .

or "you feel xyz... "

I don't think the T will make us talk about past events, rather about what can be done positively from now on.

Well, that's what I hope anyway.

Probably will give you open ended questions... .to see where you go with it... .

In that case... .make sure you are not "attacking" or "accusing"

T's don't normally "make" people do things... .

It's totally absurd I know, but I got stressed last night because on his FB page the T has launched his new website on "coping with divorce". He says as an introduction that "lots of people call him because they find hard to separate in a friendly manner... ."

I don't know what BPDh has on his mind... .his silence scares me a bit, even if it is A LOT better than sending me controlling and agressive messages.

I do hope, as you said, that T will make us do things, give us tools to focus on. Especially for BPDh, as this way he won't focus on destroying me instead.

It may seem that way... .but I really doubt that is what he is doing.

His internal turmoil and issues are most likely spilling out

Last night was a nightmare  :'(

MPDh didn't seem to understand much. The T tried to explain to him that "he felt squashed" but MPDh kept saying "no, I've let people squash me too much... ."

Then he started to explain in what way he had chosen NOTHING in our relationship, that he had been forced into it... .even the baby. I said it was unplanned and I'd ask for his opinion several times at the beginning of the pregnancy.? It was very hurtful.

He also said that he shouldn't have come back after his first escape, a few months into the r/s.

He refused to see T alone, said he already his own.

Then, we were supposed to go the restaurant, but things turned bad. I tried to talk calmly, nicely, to him but he kept telling me to shut up, although I was barely talking, really. He was tense, angry all the time.

His eyes shocked me... .he looked crazy. Popping out very green eyes... .I'd never seen him this way, he freaked me out.

I asked him to hug me, desperately trying to regain some peace and humanity. He accepted to hug me back... .only to say a few minutes lates that I'd forced him again.

We sat at the restaurant, but he threatened to leave "any time" if I spoke about things he doesn't want to talk about. So I got up and left, saying I refused threats.

On the street, I talked to him a tiny bit (talking about threats) and he RAN AWAY from me!

We were in the middle of the capital city, I didn't know the way back, I found it was cowardness and I shouted that to him aloud on the street (not the sort of thing I'd thought I'd do one day but well... .).

I stayed alone for a while, tried to call him but he wouldn't answer.

Eventually he texted me, but with conditions, asking if I was calmer (!)

We took the train back together. He spent a while telling me how much our r/s was all negative, he hadn't chosen any of it etc. I answered "I'd keep the beautiful memories and tell our baby one day that his parents DID love each other deeply."

He answered "I loved my mother deeply too".

What the heck?

What has his crazy abusive mother got to do with US?

I tried to tell him about my sadness when he left 3 months ago... .I received ZERO empathy, he said he didn't care. Then he put his headphones on, not interested in "my version" of our story.

Then later, he said he just wanted all this to be over for good, that he'd call his lawyer etc.

The whole time at the train station and on the train, I had an awful pain in the stomach... .

I'm exhausted, scared, amazed... .

I told my D10 (she cried about her SF this morning poor thing), that there was nothing we could do, that he was SICK.

God give me strength, this is just so, so hard... .

Hi Indyan


Wow it sounds like a hell of a session.

I'm not surprised you feel exhausted and upset.  

Formflier has given some really useful advice and all I can offer is my support and understanding.

I went through MC with my ex and at times I found it a very difficult and frustrating process and I struggled to maintain some kind of equilibrium.

Sadly in my case we weren't able to heal our relationship and move forward, but I'm not suggesting that this is an inevitable result when you're in a relationship with a suspected BPD.

At the time I knew nothing about the illness and I lacked any of the skills explored on this site, which might have helped me guide my own behaviour in a more constructive and healthy way.

It sounds like you both might need some space after the sessions to cool down and process what's been discussed, though I realise this isn't always easy or practical.

Even in relationships where the are no PDs it can be very difficult to step away from the hurt and anger that's been inflicted on each other and couples often come to MC on Defcon 1, armed and ready to attack and defend.

I think Formflier's points about not focussing on the BPD / diagnosis and rather on the specific behaviours that cause you pain is very good. BPDs are so innately programmed to feel persecuted and distrust others that it's terribly easy for them to feel attacked.

I'm not suggesting that this is easy, particularly when there's a PD involved.

I heard the same words that everything about our relationship was negative or you blackmailed me / bullied me into staying on many occasions even after I ended my relationship. The constant tendency to blame others and refuse to take responsibility for their own choices and actions can be very hurtful and draining.

It can be hard to remember that even though your partner appears to be an adult in critical respects you're dealing with a small child and not an adult

I would add that this is not only the preserve of BPDs. I've come to recognise that I was also immature and destructive in my own ways.

I know that it's very hard but perhaps it might help try and avoid conflict subjects / areas outside of the sessions and walk away or disengage when the conversation or interaction become heightened.

And it would help to focus on looking after yourself. Do you have any safe place where you can be to recharge yourself

Good luck and keep posting

Reforming

Hi indyan,

Sounds like a car crash of an experience for you. Your SO sounds seriously dysregulated at the moment and from what you describe emotions are understandably running high for you as well.

Indyan are you wanting to stay with your partner and try and make a go of things together? Sorry if I missed this in another post.

What did the T say and do for u both in the session is there anything he helped u focus on that you can do something with.

The other thing that occurs to me is that if u are going to continue in mc it might b better if you travel separately. At the moment everything is heightened emotionally for u both compounded by the stress of mc, reducing some of this stress and potential triggers may help.

Things may settle down as the sessions progress and as formflier says there are ways u can do things differently next time.

Remember try really hard not to be drawn into any form of JADEing its difficult and travelling separately will help with this. It might be important to reduce contact in between sessions to see if this helps you manage what is happening more effectively.

I know you are aware that mc isn't always the best way forward for someone with BPD, keep some space in yourself for the possibility the separate T may b a better way for u both at the moment.

 

Indyan,

When is your next MC session?

Can you post more about what the T tried to focus on ... .what the T said and what the hubby's response was?

I'd have wanted to improve things if only I'd seen a glimpse of the man I used to know and love, but I didn't. I don't know who he is anymore, and it's been like this for one month. I don't think he wants anything at this stage... .I don't know how to take all the horrible things he said. Should I respect the fact that "for him our r/s was all bulls*it" or should I just consider this another symptom? I hate the idea of me "forcing" him in anything we've done... .

I don't even understand why he was so "happy" at the idea of MC, if he doesn't want to make things work between us.

I even wonder whether he's just a Pervert, who just wanted to go MC so he'd get more opportunity to destroy what's left of our relationship.

Thanks Reforming, Sweetheart and Formflier, 

Your messages really help, I truly need support in this nightmare.


Let me think... .

T focused on triggers and BPDh's anger.

He asked me what unknown behaviour of me PBDh triggered and what were the things he did that did that to me?

I answered: anger. I'm not normally an angry person, but he managed to make me angry.

Triggers: verbal abuse, rejection

Then T asked him the same thing.

BPDh complained in length about me not letting him decide for himself, him not being able to say no to people (!), about people crushing him all his life.

T explained that that was HIS feeling, but that it wasn't necessary my fault.

But BPDh, very confidently, said he'd understood something, which was: "It's my fault, I let people crush me, not respect me (!). That he'd decided to decide for himself and let nobody crush him anymore."

I was amazed.

Then BPDh went on saying that I'd even forced him, as friends, to go to places. That I'd kept insisting, harrassing him almost, until he'd say yes... .(I felt like vomiting). That EVERYTHING about our life was MY decision: where we live (he travelled 1000 km for come where I used to live with my ex, my D's daddy), our house (I searched for a bigger one while pregnant, it was total chaos around moving in time), the baby even (he'd told me he didn't want children, but I got pregnant and he said he was happy) etc.

The problem is that T suggested BPDh should be able to say "no" before bursting, and should respect when I say no as well.

That was the open door to saying no to EVERYTHING.

To be able to move forward... .you need to get yourself strong... .so you don't take them personally.

That is hard when the things being said are personal to you... .but it is a skill you MUST learn. 

That helps keep you from being susceptible to the FOG

Thoughts?

Indyan I read your intro post after I had written my reply. It does seem as though your partner was seriously triggered by the stress of having a baby, I can relate to this, the birth of our son brought up the first signs of serious dysregulation in my husband. He did manage to get back on track though. He too thought I would run away with our son and leave him.

It sounds as though your partner is in a very bad place indeed, paranoid, fearful and in a cycle of dysregulation.The reason I am bringing this up here is that at the moment everything is triggering him. My dBPDh got so bad last year it was as though he was triggered by a change in the weather. He ended up in hospital. He was unrecognisable from the man I had known.

I have no doubt that your partner does want to go to mc to try and sort things but it does seem as though it's too much for him that's why I'm wondering if individual T might not be a better option for him at the moment. Like I said he might settle down after a few more sessions it really does depend on the skill of the T though.

Are you able to live where you are indefinitely without too many more problems arising ? Are you able to wait this out for a while to see if things calm down before you have to make any decisions?

The uncertainty of your situation coupled with the sadness and confusion you feel about your partners behaviour is completely understandable.

 Wanted to follow up to sweetheart... .

Yes... your hubby wants to go to MC.  He showed up.

There are many on these boards that never get this far... .I know if was a tough session for you... .but... .you are way ahead of many on this site.

Can you tell us some about your hubby's IC?

I cried when I read this... .

How did he end up in hospital?

Have you ever seen your BPDh showing no empathy, showing no other emotion from anger?

I don't recognize my BPDh at all, neither physically nor his attitude. It scares the hell out of me.


I seriously doubt that now. It looked more like he went there to accuse me of the failure(s), and to make me feel worse than I was. He succeeded - I'm a wreck today.


I had a long conversation with my dad last night over the phone. He told me to basically get out of FOG. No more fear, no more feeling of obligation. He told me BPDh threatens me of exactly what he's scared about, ie custody. I'm meeting the lawyer in a couple of days, to sort things out.

The problem that's left is the house. He pays for the rent (I can't afford it until I get a decent job, I'm only starting a PT job), and that drives him crazy.

I've decided to save myself, and this implies NO CONTACT.

He sent me a message last night demanding "news about his baby". I didn't respond. I want to feel no obligation.

I hope that NC, being "separated for good" as he asked on Saturday, and receiving a letter from my lawyer will calm him down, or get him back to earth.

Regarding MC, I will only go if he stops denigrating our r/s or criticizing me all along. If he talks about it, I'll let him know this. I'm not a punching ball, BPD or not.

I don't feel privileged... .I feel manipulated rather.

Maybe that comes too late, I don't know. It would have been fantastic just 6 months ago.

I'll call the T later today, or tomorrow, to know what he thinks of all this.

What's IC? Individual counseling?

 Yes... IC is individual counseling

Please don't set conditions... .just go to MC.  During the session this is something to address with the T.  I would not do it at the start of the session... just bring it up if it starts going bad.

If the T brings it up first... that is fine. 

Here is the reason... .you want to work on the r/s... .not impose conditions on other person.  If you an impose conditions... then he can ... .and that may end up with you guys not communicating.

You are the "non"... .that means that you are emotionally and mentally healthier... .focus on that... .focus on opening doors to healing instead of shutting them.

Give counseling several sessions before trying to lock things down... .let the T work on this before you try to impose a boundary.

Hang in there... I know it's frustrating.

The thing is I USED TO BE healthy mentally. Now, I'm broken. I just can't cope with more horrible stuff, I'm too fragile for the moment.

Maybe I should just wait I don't know.

As for "not communicating", we're there  :'(

I don't even feel I can answer his text messages anymore.

 

Then don't answer them.  Let him know that you don't feel well... .and that you will get back to him via text in a certain period of time.  One day... something like that.

Don't leave it open ended.

What you are facing is common... .I faced it... .and many others did.  We felt like we didn't have strength to carry on... .take time for yourself... .and find some strength for you!

Hi Indyan,

I am so sorry that you are going through this harsh time right now. 

I will second what formflier and sweetheart have said. Take the time that you need to take care of yourself right now. As I read your posts, I see that you are really developing some boundaries centered around your core values, and you are taking active steps to strengthen those boundaries. That is really hard work, especially given the verbal attacks and invalidation that you are receiving. All this to say that, I am really in admiration of your strength.

It sounds like your dad was supportive of you. I encourage you to keep building that network of support and reaching out to them. You are not alone in this. And it does hurt, pparticularly when a partner paints you black in a neutral place with an MC where you are supposed to be learning how to support one another. My uBPDw sat in MC and could not speak of one thing I do for her that makes her feel supported, after 17 years of being together. I felt crushed. I wanted to leave the MC session, the RS and her at that moment. Instead, the MC informed me about BPD, I have learned a lot from this site and other resources, am still learning, and our MC sessions have gradually been creeping into a bit more positive ground. But having boundaries has been the basis for change for me. Hang in there and let us know how you are doing. 

"How do you resist the action>reaction>counter reaction>counter counter reaction>escalation cycle?"

Hello Indyan, the above is from a waverider thread. This is what you are caught up in with your partner and is the reason why you are feeling so emotionally exhausted. The only way to stop this is to step out of it by emotionally and physically disengaging. Will this be hard yes it will because when someone is hurting you instinctively we want to protect and defend ourselves. Every time you attempt to counter the hurt, the person with BPD feels invalidated and off they go again.

You are in a horrible situation, I don't know how often you are going to mc, but i wonder if you feel able to go NC in between each session at least for a while to give yourself a chance to catch your breath. Remember this is to help ground you, stop the chaos, it's not for your partner. Is there any reason why you have to respond to texts at the moment. I know you are going to a lawyer soon, use their voice to help you communicate with your partner about access to your baby.

I know this isn't what you want to be happening and it's like being blind-sided, but you can stop this.

Like formflier said it's ok to tell your partner you aren't feeling well and that you only want to talk to him in mc at the moment and then leave it at that-saying you want some time for yourself is ok. How would you feel about doing this ?

I have been where you are and the emotional chaos was almost too much to bear so I hope you can find a way to put yourself first. Take the time out to focus on being kind to you and being with your children. 

I don't get it, really. I keep trying to send positive vibes, and all I get is criticism and hate... .

"Stepping out", you mean going no contact?


Yes, maybe I'll say that. The thing is I'm not into MC anymore... .but maybe I need time to relax first.

Also in my mind lawyer and MC don't go together... .like war on one side and peace on the other... .

But my dad convinced me that I have no choice. That HE (or they, including his family) are just waiting for baby to grow in order to ask for more rights.

Thanks again to all for your very supportive replies  


What do you mean "open ended"?

I can't tell him I'm not well. Last time I did he said "If you can't raise the kids, I'll take baby FT".

Furthermore, I don't want to share any of my emotions with him at all now.

I just want NOTHING with him. I need space, I need to breathe.

I just don't want to play any part in HIS game anymore. I've actually thought of just answering "GAME OVER", but of course he'd use this against me and say that "baby's not a game".

No contact whatsoever, I want no contact.


Yes, but he didn't (and I don't blame him) understand the idea of loving a mentally ill person. He kept trying to understand BPD behaviour in a logical manner, and I had to say ":)ad, he's ILL, there's no explanation to this behaviour... ." He got upset (my mum told me the same thing several times too) saying that I had to stop feeling concerned about BPDh's health, that it was HIS business not mine, that I couldn't do anything to help him.

And I know they're right... .


What sort of boundaries?

Here, we're not even a couple anymore. We don't live together, we can't even talk to each other. He makes me feel sick when I see him, he scares me. He looks so crazy that I don't recognize him at all.

Indyan 

I know exactly how you are feeling... .When my Husband had his affair (we were only married 11 years; it lasted 2.5 years, and once it ended we found a way to make the marriage work and celebrated our 40th Anniversary earlier this year), he re-wrote our whole relationship in his mind, too. He told me that I'd "forced" him into marrying him (huh? We were engaged for almost a year and he picked the time of engagement and date for the wedding!), "forced" him into the life we had: 2 kids, a house, a stable relationhship.

Once he started railing that he'd spent his "whole life!" pleasing everyone else, doing the "right thing" and denying his own desires, I realized two things: 1). He was really talking about his BPD Mom and her control over him (I think he transferred his rage at her which was always tamped down, onto me as his wife), and 2). He was trying to justify his affair, which he knew was wrong. Sometimes I felt like he was poking his Mom in the eye with this girlfriend (he would fight about having that girlfriend on the phone with her!).

I have no idea what you might figure out is at the bottom of your own Husband's re-writing of your past relationship, but once you figure out that it probably has nothing at all to do with you, maybe your pain will subside a bit? I do know that mine did, and eventually we were able to talk about it and it turned out that he ended up agreeing with me that his defiance had more to do with his Mom than it did with me, and he saw his affair as something he did to break free of her control of him. Of course, that conversation didn't take place till after he broke up with the GF and came back home after a short stay with her after I finally kicked him out of the house 

We did go to Counseling, but mostly my Husband alone with the same Counselor that I was seeing alone, and then we had just a few sessions together. If you feel that you need to go alone at times, I truly do recommend that; our sessions together were very painful and took place when he was still "not himself" and it really did kill me to hear him talk and to see the coldness (and sometimes hatred for me) in his eyes. The only thing that helped me was detaching from it, realizing that it wasn't about me so much as it was about him (and his Mom). Really weird, but it was how I coped with it... .

The advice you are receiving on this thread is very good; you'll get to the place where you can deal with this, Indyan, but it will take detaching from the words he says and the look in his eyes, and some Counseling. And mull over the suggestions you are reading in this thread 

Indyan,

Your boundaries are a reflection of what you value as central to who you are, what your truth is. They are different for everyone. In my case, after doing some work within the Stop Walking On Eggshells workbook, I started to develop some boundaries that I will not engage in conversations where my wife is sarcastic, blaming or intentionally hurtful. I make one attempt at using SET as a tool to communicate in those instances, and if she continues to communicate in a destructive or abusive way, I let her know that I can see she is angry/hurt, and that I will be available to talk later when we are both less upset. Then, I go for a walk, leave the room, etc.

Again, in our case, MC wasn't really helping, and we found ways to space the sessions out until the boundaries and communication tools I learned here began lowering the conflict level between us. Now, we are back to MC weekly, and it isn't a big blame fest like it typically had been. We still skirt the big issues, but at least it's an opportunity to see my wife for the person I once loved v. the person that has been verbally abusing me for the past 8 years.

But I made my needs more important than the RS needs. I realized that I had to start taking care of my own mental health to make anything within my house any better, as my wife certainly was not going to be able to do so.

Re. your parents, it is understandable that they are going to want to protect you. Consider using SET with them, to better help them understand how they can support you. Something along the lines of "I completely understand how helpless and angry that ___'s behavior to me must make you feel, and I am certain I'd feel the same way for my child if they were being harmed. What helps me most right now is ____." or "It feels better when you don't make me wrong for loving someone with a mental illness but help me to get the support I need in getting through this tough time." I think that will help them to be there in a way that you need, not in a way that they need. I am learning, for myself, that I am so used to putting everyone ahead of me that it takes a big effort to actually consider what I need right now.

If you feel that NC is what you need, then that's what you should do. Take that break from the abuse. I also feel that weird dichotomy of taking measures to protect myself while going to MC and trying to see if this marriage can be salvaged. But sweetheart is right. The only way it's going to improve is by subtracting your contribution from the equation and then allowing the pwBPD to have their reactions (provided they are not threatening/harming). What else can we do? But for me, I am seeing that it is having some positive effects.

Keep reading and posting. We will be here for you. 

Thanks Rapt Reader for your long message, it's very encouraging.


EXACTLY.

He told the T and I exactly this. And it seems like a big weight off his chest (onto me lol). He did say himself that it all started with his mum, with whom he wasn't allowed to talk, to move or to think, and who made him feel that he never did enough. The T tried to tell him that he "applied" this onto me now, but BPDh is too much into being a victim, and breaking free (violently).

So your husband also told you those things?

Mine even said to me that he felt forced to join me when I invited as friends... .that's so distorted.

He was down, after his ex refused recycling (I figured out), I felt sorry for him as of course he was the victim, and he talked in length about how bad and evil the girl was. And then, even the baby was MY choice (!). That's sick, really, yuck.

Thank you Takingandsending, what you say makes a lot of sense.

I should never allow him talk to me in an hurtful manner. Especially that if I want to reply to it, he refuses!

I told him this is extremely violent: vomiting all his garbage and hate, and not even giving me the "right" to say a word in return... .

How much I dislike all this... . 

I never knew that someone who showed so much love could hurt so much too... .he did (with his mother) and it's as if he wanted to make me feel exactly what he felt as a child with her.

How weird.

And I forgot to say that I phoned the therapist tonight.

He told me that BPDh sent him a veeeeery loong message, complaining about me, poor him, poor him, poor him. Saying I "accused him of having BPD and NPD".

Therapist said he told him "You cannot be both, it's either one or the other" (lol, I guess BPDh was hoping that T would tell him "you suffer from none"

Then BPDh told him "My therapist is not available this week, could I see you instead" (!)

That annoyed my therapist, even if he knows all about this behaviour (he even talks about this in one of his videos). He told me he was going to answer something like "If you want to keep the position of the victim, stay with your therapist, but if you want to see me we'll do work on a regular basis."

I found it funny in fact.

He sent a message to the therapist that tells how persecuted he feels  :)

That's perfect!

*mod*

This thread has been locked, due to reaching its post limit. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread... .