BPDFamily.com

I am now halfway through reading “stop caretaking the borderline or narcissist”. I find it all so relatable and I feel like crying with part sadness and past relief. I feel I am absolutely ready to make changes and take some of the power back. I already started just before I found this website, when I said to my wife that I would been taking photos of the children and sending them to my mum and she said she didn’t want to be with me and completely rejected me for several months. I am still nervous of such things but getting better at it. I have also been having showers whenever I want (within reasonable timeframes given the shared care of young children). She has not questioned this at all!
Today I wore a top my mum bought me last year. At the time I was told, it’s old fashioned, just wear it when you’re playing piano for the old people… Well I don’t play the piano for old people since Covid, so haven’t worn it till today. She said, what’s this top? I said, my mum bought it for me last year. She said, I like the pattern… but it doesn’t fit you properly. I have spent the rest of the day questioning whether it looks ok. I realise her power over me, despite the fact that she changed her reasons for not wanting me to wear it.
Ultimately I want to get back to playing the piano for pleasure. But that is a bit further off. I have been forbidden because she doesn’t have something that calms her that is a talent and also she is jealous because she would like to be able to play the piano and doesn’t have the time with two young babies.
I would like to video call my mum with the older child more. Do I use the opportunity when my wife is out getting her hair done? Because we’re together nearly all the time. She doesn’t like how much attention my mum gives the kids. Oh and we have the same issue again my mum has bought a dress for the baby which I would like her to wear… and I’m nervous for her to wear it.
It all seems so silly. But I am so determined to learn and change and stand up for myself. To accept that sometimes I should do what I want for a change. Thank you all so much for your support. Caretakers are such wonderful people. But I want to stop being one.

Hi Broken person,  :hi:


I really like that book because it offered so much insight into me. Sounds like you're discovering the same thing for yourself. The words peel back the layers we hide under, those of caring for others which is supposedly such a good thing, right? We may have been taught these great traits and also found that they're actually a deep strength of who we are. However, the unfortunate side of caretaking shows us the weakness as well. Good for you to not shrink from these discoveries you're making.  |iiii

I would encourage you to shift your caretaking skill to one particular person: you. Self care and strengthening is so necessary to become healthy and less dependent on others. It takes time, so don't become upset with yourself if you don't get it right the first time.

Kindness and  :hug:
Wools

Why not call/video your mum a reasonable amount and let your pwBPD just not like it.

I'm not suggesting to be mean..rather I'm suggesting to do the things you need to do for your own emotional well being.  Such as sharing your important things (like kids) with other important people in your life.

I'll second the suggestion to take care of yourself.  Let your pwBPD care for her feelings about things "she doesn't like".

Best,

FF

Great words from Wools!   As I thought about this I remembered back to how I was when I first arrived here.  I could see the truth and honesty in what the senior members here told me.    It did take a long time for me to grow deep understandings of what some of this meant for me.    Self care was not a concept that I gave any thought too before people here mentioned it.    I didn't really know what self care was,  and I didn't really know what self care should look like for me.



Are you comfortable with the amount of time you spend together?    does this allow you time to do what you want, take care of your own needs, recharge your own batteries?   what do you think would be a good amount of time for you to focus on just you?

Thanks all, as they say, baby steps.. I’m disturbed and aghast to recognise the extent of these issues. I’m learning a bit about self care. And also a little confused.
So I’ve always gotten the general impression from you guys.. do what an emotionally healthy person would do.. and then deal with your pwbpd and their reaction as expertly as possible. Some things are easier to tackle than others. And less emotionally charged. Eg. I can have a shower when I want. I know she gets upset but she has handled it. But, for example, our eldest turned 2 last week. And I can’t take it upon myself to put her 2 year height measurement on the wall. It is one of these control things with my wife, “it’s something we do together…” but if I mention it… it makes it less likely to happen. Other examples I have mentioned here before are a hand painting we did with me, my wife, and toddler, and it’s still waiting for the younger baby’s hand print. For several months! Also the dog still doesn’t have the gps tracker on him… which I am paying for! If I mention any of this it annoys her and it’s like one of the unwritten rules that if I mention it then it won’t happen for at least another week, but if I don’t mention it then it probably won’t happen either. I think she’s annoyed I’m so organised.
But another thing I’m confused about, with the caretaking.. how do you know the difference between caretaking and just being a good partner? Here is an example: my wife had bought a print for our new house, a hand  drawn picture of two adult hands, a baby and toddler’s hands and our names. It was printed on shiny photographic paper and she also bought a frame for it. Well when she went to put it in the frame loads of hairs stuck to it and it got slightly scratched and I got her a cloth to get the  hairs off but she couldn’t do it and said it was ruined. And I did make a comment about our house being dusty and dirty because she doesn’t like me cleaning… but refrained from saying hey now the dog is included with his hairs on the family print lol. Anyway, she told me to just pack it away, I asked if she wanted me to fix it she said, whatever it’s ruined. So at the first opportunity I got it out and sorted it as best I could. So it’s looking beautiful hopefully when we unpack it at the new house to go on the wall. Because I thought it such a sweet gesture. But I felt hmm maybe she should have to sort out her own problems sometimes. Working with children, problem-solving is a massive part of what I teach. And I model “can do” attitude. And I did think actually it would be nice if she had to ask me nicely and thank me. Sometimes I do just leave things for her to deal with, but I just wanted to help this time.

The attention was what I had always craved when we first met, but I was overwhelmed by it very early on. I used to only have my phone connected to the internet when I was at home, and one time when I’d only met my wife online a few times (when I was still with my ex), I got in from school early and loads of viber messages pinged at me immediately and it freaked me out also because she was messaging me on other platforms because she knew I was home even though I didn’t open the messages. I wish she wouldn’t ring me when I’m driving or shopping because I prefer to concentrate on what I’m doing. But it’s easier to put up with it than tell her I don’t want her to.

Can you extend this general way of thinking to more issues or "conflicts" within your relationship.

I would suggest that instead of YOU learned to handle your pwBPDs reactions as expertly as possible that you think about handling your own reactions and let your pwBPD think about handling their reactions.

You do you...your pwBPD does themselves.

Much simpler.

Best,

FF

This from FF is perfect:

Self care is not about you fixing or trying to please anyone. It's about taking care of you. It's about being you, an individual who does not have someone else telling them what to do or think. Now lest you go down the "that's selfish" road, it's not selfish to take care of the super special person that God created you to be. He made you an individual, perfectly and wonderfully created.

I think that kindness and care can often be confused. I did way too much caretaking of my SO and argued that it was kindness. Perhaps I was being kind, but I was over functioning and taking care of what he was a big person and capable of doing. I had to unlearn before I could re-learn. Rather than stepping in to fix the picture, allow her to deal with her own feelings, and you can sit on the desire to fix it. See how you do. It will feel super foreign at first. Don't give up. You don't have to be mean, but let her ask for help if she wants it.

 :hug:
Wools

I think it's likely you gave up these aspects of your self care in increments, not all at once. I don't think if your wife said to you "for us to be together you will give up playing piano ,taking showers and all aspects of your self care to be with me". I think you might have ran at this point. More likely it was one thing, and you did it to keep things good between you, then another, and the goal post keeps moving.

It's your own sense of discomfort over her discomfort that keeps you in this pattern. You can move the goal post back a bit at a time as you learn to manage your own discomfort when she is unhappy. I know that is difficult as I also had to learn this too. It's you getting better at self soothing skills that allows you to leave her the space to get better at it herself.

While this may seem as being "kind" to you, it's also keeping her from learning to manage her own discomfort- for as long as you do it for her, she won't be able to learn. I understand that you don't wish to cause her any discomfort, but some of the things you wish to do are basic self care- like taking a shower, and others bring you happiness- like playing piano.

One suggestion is to take on one at a time. Trying to do them all at once might be overwhelming to both of you. Maybe start with self care: the right to take a shower, the right to wear any clothes you want.

How do you know if it's caretaking or being nice? One key is your own feelings. When we caretake too much we tend to feel resentful. Often we block out this feeling- but try to connect with it. The same action can be either caretaking or being nice. The key is why you do it. Are you doing it because you really want to or because you are afraid of her reaction. The latter is not sincerely being  nice, it's acting out of fear.

Depriving yourself of basic self care needs is not being nice to her, and it's also not being nice to you. It doesn't help her if you don't take a shower when you want to, it hurts you to not take one. If you deprive yourself to please her- you are enabling her to take away your basic needs. That isn't helping either of you.

Hi all, I do think I am getting the idea, I have been having more showers lately due to it being encouraged on the site, and it has worked out fine. I think since the first boundary I challenged of not being allowed to send baby pictures to mum, my wife does get that I am generally pushing those boundaries a little bit.
Something interesting that happened today.. the dress Mum sent for baby birthday was a little on the smaller side. So wife had asked her to send us the gift receipt so we could get it changed and mum had ordered the next size up to come to us. Wife was annoyed at this extra effort on mums part. But also because mum said it was in memory of her own mother who loved roses. Anyway I just knew the package was going to sit on the side for weeks or months and that if I mentioned opening it wife would say no. Yes I know how ridiculous this sounds. Well heart beating hard I took the package into the front room and said directly to dd, ooh look this has your name on it! Shall we open it? Of course, wife said nothing about it. I put the dress held up on top of toddler and she laughed, my heart beating even harder I took a couple of photos for mum. These are small small steps and of course what I want so desperately is for our baby to wear the dress (apparently it’s up to age 3 so should last a while at least). It’s because my mum makes me feel guilty about not seeing the children and always mentions how close I was to my grandmother. It breaks my heart every time. But I’m trying mum. I really really am.
I have a motto in working with children which is that “children do what is expected of them “. It works astoundingly well with autistic children (usually you have to pretend to expect something when you don’t really). It doesn’t always work with my wife. But I do think I should try it a bit more often.

I really like this idea that children do what is expected of them.

It sounds like you feel you should expect more from your wife and I would say the same for my relationship. Most relationship advise I have seen says to have realistic expectations and I think my first read on that would actually be to lower expectations… In some ways I think that may be true too though. In what areas do you think a recovering caretaker typically should raise expectations and which areas might we need to lower expectations?

Hi hope, thank you for raising this very important question. I think with my wife that there are certain things which she has a very emotional attachment to and these are the things I would lower expectations. Unfortunately one of the biggest issues for us is me playing the piano for pleasure. She absolutely hates me doing it and for this reason I actually have stopped. I used to perform for the elderly for work but sadly this has stopped since Covid. Which is a shame because I loved it as well as earning from it. But my wife’s jealousy means that she struggles to accept that I can play the piano with ease, that I love it, and that it calms me. So for anything like this I sadly would have very low expectations. I’m planning on less emotional issues like the showers, to have higher expectations of her ability to cope with it. For some reason, for me personally, knowing I have this supportive community on here gives me confidence to help me cope. So finally I’m getting some validation for myself. And realising that actually I’m not always in the wrong.

Perhaps let your wife know a couple of hours heads up when you plan on practicing piano..so she can take walk or do something to care for herself.

Perhaps one reschedule...as in you say 6pm and she requests 7pm for the walk time.  Accommodate her.

However...you like piano and obviously get something from playing it.  That falls under you taking care of you.

Plus...what if your understanding of your wife's stance on piano playing is not correct?  And all this time you have been giving it up for naught.

Hey..bigtime applause on the dress!  That's the mindset to move forward with.

Best,

FF

Thanks for your encouragement FF. I think sometimes I have got my wife’s motives and feelings wrong. Like with a previous dress that my mum bought, I don’t know why she didn’t want the baby wearing the dress… Because the answer was always “she’ll wear it another day, I just don’t want her in it today”. But then when our littlest was in hospital I decided to put older child in the dress and sent a picture. And she was very angry and wanted me to take it off “I don’t get to be there for her wearing her new outfit” she said. So I took it off her. From what I’ve since learnt on here, I understand much better now.. that this was about her missing the child and not getting to be with her, rather than the dress. And her jealousy over me getting to be with her.
My wife is very open about her feelings and motives usually. Very early on she told me she didn’t want me playing the piano after an argument or upset, because she doesn’t have any equivalent thing she can do to calm her down. She also told me certain things I was not to play because, “I want to be able to play that”. Then after a few years humiliated me asking me to play it on fb live and I was rubbish at it because I wasn’t prepared (even though the audience apparently loved it which I think is why she deleted the post afterwards). More recently, she has said she doesn’t like me playing the piano because “I don’t get the time to do that”. She has always said she wants to learn but refuses to comply with my teaching methods (and don’t forget I have taught many “difficult” children). She just walks away and none of my students have ever done that! She also says it’s not fair because I get to play the piano when I’m teaching online! Because I’m teaching! So these are all things we can talk about but I’m not sure how to. The fact is that she really doesn’t  have the time because the breast fed baby needs her most of the time and rarely can be put down or even taken by me. This has been our experience of her breast feeding with both kids.I do technically have time but it would involve me spending time away from her during my spare time when I’m not working. Again, she has expressly forbidden me from doing anything else even housework.. “this is supposed to be our time together, why wouldn’t you want to be with me? You should  want to be with me.” So I feel with these things she has openly “forbidden” me to do, some kind of conversation does have to go down, rather than me just doing it. When I started sending baby photos to mum I just told her I had decided that because my mum was so upset. And my wife said “our marriage is over, you’re disrespecting my wishes” And refused to give me any affection or say she loved me for months. Apparently I “should” have left her but she couldn’t leave as we had one baby and she was pregnant. She’s somewhat over it now, although she still doesn’t like me even taking photos especially with me in. Or without her. Or photos of children with each other or dog because “I want to get to be the one who takes those photos” I do fear that, were I just to announce my defiance of the no piano rule, we may have to go through all that again… and may not make it. I understand that recovery means self care and for me that means among other things, playing the piano. I’m just not ready to tackle it yet, because I don’t think it’s a good idea. The other thing I have spoken on here about is my wish that I will teach the children to play the piano, if they wanted me to. My wife has expressly forgive me from this, “you won’t be teaching the children to play the piano, because I can’t teach them that..” My fear is that were they ever to ask me, I would have to say no Mummy doesn’t want me to. Which goes against everything I believe in.

Since you work with children with autism, you understand they have difficulty with emotional regulation. They have meltdowns when frustrated. You probably handle these quite well.

I don't think it's much different with BPD, except that they are grown adults and are more verbal, and the meltdowns are from the adult perspective.

Likely you don't walk on eggshells around the kids. You want them to learn better emotional regulation. You can use the same skills you have with them with your wife. I know she's not a child, but emotional regulation is an issue for some people with BPD and you can use the skills you have- to deal with this and also not allow it to impact you as much.

Thanks not Wendy, of course, you’re right, I don’t walk on egg shells around the children I work with. I have always wondered if it’s because it’s a professional capacity. But then over the years I don’t find my work stressful, I literally pretended things weren’t stressing me for years, and finally ceased to become stressed by it! I’m finding that being here on the forum is VALIDATING FOR ME! :D so I’m far less upset by any crazy accusations thrown my way by my wife. Another interesting development, dd was playing with a toy my mum got for her birthday.. and I took some photos of her.. and my wife took a video. And before she’d finished playing with it my wife said, “I’ve sent that video to your mum..” Now one small curve ball is that I do sometimes wonder if she lies about such things because I don’t always talk to mum about it. But if she did send a video then I really don’t mind. The more photos and videos mum gets off our babies, the better.

hello Broken Person -

I've been following along with your posts and noting all the great work you are putting in.    Good Job.   |iiii

I've been wondering about the common denominator between all these incidents and events you mention.    what exactly is the underlying cause?    clearly it isn't about the top you wear, the outfit the baby wears, when or what you play on the piano, if you put the gps tracker on the dog or not.    what's underneath all that?

I know its hard to see the big picture,  especially when all this information is brand new and coming at you like a fire hose.    I remember struggling to see how some of this related to my life and my relationship.

One of the hardest concepts for me was the idea that pwBPD have an unstable sense of self, that they struggle with feeling empty, and they often don't feel whole.   My sense is this isn't something that they would articulate as "I don't feel whole."    More that - like many raw emotions - its expressed sideways or with a lot of misdirected anger attached.

I wonder if some of your wife's behavior is about her not feeling whole, complete, special.

You can't play the piano for fun - that is a special talent you have that makes you unique and full.  I don't have that,  I am empty so you can't have it either.

Your Mum wants pictures of the babies,... my Mum didn't even get in touch for months after the birth... I am not special enough.    I have to make that go away ...you can't send pictures.

The baby has a new top... I have to be the one who puts it on her for the first time.    I have to have that special moment because that will make me feel special.

It took me a long time to figure out how my Ex Partner collected people and objects, memories and associations to fill her up.    My Ex Partner had a very unstable sense of self.    She was often unsure of who or what she was so she looked to the people and things around her to define herself.     I am wondering if your wife does this by eliminating the things she can't emulate.   make sense?

my two cents -
ducks

Hi ducks, that is very insightful and you are absolutely right. I hadn’t ever understood what lack of self means before. I wonder how I can use this knowledge to better support my wife and get what I want sometimes too. It’s not just that’s she wants to be the one to do special things. It’s jealousy of anything I want to do. Like she doesn’t want me to be happy seeing the baby wear the dress my mum bought, she doesn’t want my mum happy about it. It’s not even just my happiness she doesn’t like, sometimes it’s satisfaction too. Like one time I had just finished a mountain of washing up and was cleaning the hob. And she freaked out, having a go at me that I was supposed to be washing up and cleaning the hob was not mentioned when we agreed that I would wash up. This was just the final act to feel fully satisfied that everything in the kitchen was clean. And she didn’t want me to have that satisfaction of a job completed. She even said, “maybe I want to do it”. So for a week or so I left it for her and told her so. Guess what? She didn’t do it. So I just started doing it again and she never commented. It’s like she’s jealous of the satisfaction I get from cleaning, but clearly she doesn’t get that satisfaction because she never cleans anything. Funnily I was at my cleaning job today and reflected on how, I always thought of it as a break from my teaching work. But really it’s just another caretaking job isn’t it!

I would say, what the author Mark Manson said:  "if you make a sacrifice for some one you care about, it needs to be because you want to, not because you feel obligated to or fear the consequences of not doing so.   Acts of love are only valid if they're performed without conditions or expectations."   I would also add that any act should encourage function, not enable dysfunction.

I take care of a family member who is badly ill and struggles with every day tasks.   grocery shopping, taking the trash to the curb, trips to the specialists are difficult.   I help.    some.    its difficult to find and maintain that fuzzy boundary between independence and dependence.   and that boundary can be flexible if something else comes up,  like a once in a generation pandemic.

often newcomers here say 'oh my goodness I can't do XY or Z because that would certainly end the relationship'.    which sounds very much like fear to me.  I happen to think there are healthy fears and unhealthy fears.   I am afraid to walk near the edge of the cliff because it might crumble and fall.   probably closer to healthy on the spectrum.  I am afraid to say I don't want hotdogs for dinner because it will cause an argument.    probably closer to unhealthy on the spectrum.

from what you describe you wife seems very enmeshed with you.   for people following along on this thread; enmeshment is a family pattern in which there are no psychological boundaries between the family members. Hence, the family members seem psychologically fused together or enmeshed. The enmeshed family members seem to have no separate identities.  Instead, they identify with each other and seem to live each other’s lives.    Hence why you playing the piano bothers your wife.

I would suggest you want to encourage and validate any independent thought or action your wife takes.   many think validation is only for emotionally fraught moments and this is not true.     validation works best when its applied often and during positive or good moments.   

I would also say that what you are doing... slowly working your way out of this pattern of control and enmeshment is a good step.   I think we were talking about this before but I don't recall - what do you think is a good amount of time for you two to spend together?    just for an example if you think spending 8 hours a day together is about the right amount and currently you are spending 16 hours a day together,  what would be the easiest and the quickest thing to start to move that pendulum from 16 to 15.5?   am I saying that clearly enough?

you've recognized that she is going to have difficulty holding her identity as an independent person and that's information that will come in handy.    let's say you take on an extra student outside the house.

BP:   I am going to sign up a new student to follow my normal one on Thursday afternoons.   (notice you aren't asking permission as much as stating what you are going to do with your career)
BPW:   I don't want you to do that, I want you to come straight home on Thursdays.
BP:   SET - Support, Empathy,Truth -   I know this will be a change to our regular routine.    and sometimes change is hard.   Still I need to do this because it will__________fill in the blank_______.
BPW:   See, you never care what I want, you always do whatever you want.  you're selfish.  (her emotional level/temperature is rising)
BP: Wow BPW (use her name - this creates a connection - now gently but firmly hold your ground, stay on the topic at hand - don't pick up the bait about whether you are selfish or not)   Its important I add some more students, we really need to give this a go.
BPW:   NO, you have to be here on Thursdays to pick up the fish and chips.
BP:   (don't go down the rabbit hole of who/why/what fish and chips, that's a distraction) Like I said - I know this will require some change but I am sure we can work through it together.

what do you think?

And..perhaps you are encouraging yourself to function better and your pwBPD has a dysfunctional reaction to this.  Very important to stay the course, because that will show your pwBPD that the dysfunctional tool isn't working anymore.

Eventually the situation will pass and you two will be more functional as a couple.  If you "give in" to threats...wailing... and other dysfunctional things...that would be an example of encouraging dysfunction.

Good job on finding places to have small victories.  Keep building momentum towards healthy.

Best,

FF

Thanks ducks and ff. There is no turning back now. It is going to be a slow process, but I’m literally looking for opportunities to challenge both our coping skills. I’ve always thought that with my work with children with challenging behaviours, I should be better dealing with bpd wife. I feel like I’m finally learning something. I am so interested to discover how we’re not meeting each other’s needs. And I notice the dreaded invalidating all the time, just getting the hang of how to handle it.   She says such ridiculous things sometimes it’s hard not to say, “that’s ridiculous!” But I’m working on it. I can’t thank you all enough for your help.
So it’s going to sound like excuses but I’ll explain ducks my thoughts on your suggestions. Your suggestions are brilliantby the way and I really appreciate your time. I cannot take on any more students after school because my schedule is full. AlsoI have to wait for the enquiries to come to me. And I only have a couple outside the house (not online) due to the risk of our sick baby catching Covid. The two I see are disabled that is why. Ironically Thursday is the only day I finish early and it’s because my wife goes to slimming world. And yea she gets enormous amounts of validation and encouragement for doing something healthy, sociable, and without me. Also, it’s not just that I discuss with and ask her permission to take new students on.She actually likes to be my “pa” and respond to work messages for me. I have always let her do this because she finds written communication challenging, and I felt it was good for her to learn about running a business, also it helps me out, and is somewhat a bonding activity for us.. However, I do accept that this is controlling behaviour and you will probably say I should stop it. This is going to be a hard one. But I appreciate your reasoning. We are together from about 8am-3pm Mon- Wed then I work till about 7. After that it’s busy with the kids until bed time. As she sleeps with them I don’t see her after they go to bed. So that’s about 7 hours together. Thursday and Friday I clean in morning and sometimes go grocery shopping so we only get about 2-3 hours together. Saturday usually about 5 hours and Sunday all day. On Wednesday this week she is going to get her hair done and taking the little baby. I was thinking of taking the older one for a walk to the post box to post grandparents thank you cards. I have suggested we could all go but it hasn’t happened. I think she will freak about it. Not because she’s worried about the child’s safety, just because she wants to be there too. She is obsessive about wanting us both to do everything for the first time etc. But on occasion she has taken child to park etc without me. And I have never done that without her. Child has never posted a letter before, which is why I wonder if it’s ok. But I don’t know if this would be more upsetting than going to the park? She might ask in advance what I intend to do that morning. I don’t know whether to announce it as a plan, or whether to just tell her afterwards when she asks what we’ve done. I also wanted to say that whilst I get few opportunities to do anything on my own, my wife seems keen for us to have a more healthy relationship where we have our own things going on. The reason I say this is because it’s all still up in the air with our move but she talks lots about how she wants things to be different when we move. She’s losing weight healthily and buying more sophisticated clothes. I even bought myself a few bits, something I’ve been unable to do for years (or chosen not to) due to her poor self esteem and post pregnancy body. She really wants to make friends but seems to always attract dysfunctional and unreliable friends. I make amazing friends given enough time, so she is jealous of that. But I do think a new area will be good for us. She wants to have singing lessons and join a choir and some mum groups. Some of it a bit challenging with the little ones, but I will certainly take opportunities to become more independent too.

You are getting  a serious cheering squad going on the sidelines.  You've got this! 


Slow is likely better!  What if you tried the word "deliberate" instead of slow...or perhaps "thoughtful". 





Whatever you can do to drop "battle" words and adopt "nurturing" words will help your attitude.  Remember...pwBPD are super sensitive.

So if you adopt a "challenging" stance..she will likely feel attacked.  Less chance if you are "demonstrating" or "leading" or "nurturing".


Last...there was mention of wanting to say "that's ridiculous" or something like that, yet you obviously understood that would likely not be helpful..and you would be right!

Instead of passing judgment (ridiculous)...communicate and own your emotion. 

"Oh my...I'm at a loss for words.  That sounds important, let me give it thought and we can talk about it later."

or

"I'm shocked!  I'm going to take some time to think about the important matters you  raised."

then disengage

This falls under the axiom of don't protect them from themselves...if they say shocking things...people should be shocked...let them connect the dots on their end.

Best,

FF

FF, I seriously feel so supported and VALIDATED by you all here and it is really helping me to cope. I find it I don’t get upset or argumentative then my wife is also calmer and happier.
You make some really good and helpful points. “Challenging yet achievable” was a phrase I used time and again in my early childhood studies. Ok I finally get it.. some people don’t like to be challenged! Lol, you’re right, “encouraged” is a better word. To be honest, what I’m getting better at is support and truth but struggle with the empathy a bit more.. how do you convey you know how they feel, when you really don’t get it? Tbh I’ve discovered in the past couple of weeks that saying nothing is often better than what I would usually say! The whole don’t JADE thing has been enormously helpful to me.

So...put on your thinking cap.  How does this related to Baby Ducks writing about no sense of self...empty?

I think you are on the cusp of an ah haaa moment.

Best,

FF

Thanks FF,
Your teaching style wouldn’t work with my wife, making your students figure things out for themselves! Lol she would be out that door just like when I’ve tried to teach her piano.
Hmm I have been thinking about what you said. So if I respond negatively to any conflict that surely creates massive problems. My wife has always accused me of “always wanting to start arguments”. But I’ve always thought, hang on, she’s the one starting it because she says something that is “ridiculous” in my mind, and then I feel I have to tell her why and apparently that’s starting an argument and “always being negative”. So I’m learning to say a lot less and try to validate her thoughts without agreeing. Like I was saying, we have two frozen embryos in storage for ivf…, today she said she wants to adopt a couple of kids, specific pre-school sisters who need a home. I managed to validate and not say that’s ridiculous.
What I don’t get is if she takes on my negativity due to feeling empty, why can’t she ever feel happy for me and join in with positive feelings? We do have good times together of course but I’m always on guard because I’m aware that if I’m too “happy” then she’ll get annoyed and moody about it. I think it’s because she’s jealous of all things making me happy. Like before we met when we saw each other only on Skype.. two examples, one time, a student bought me chocolates and I told her, “I love these chocolates!” And she was like, “you love chocolate more than me”. Another time she was jealous because my cat was being affectionate. Again, “you love the cat more than me”. I was like, “I don’t love the cat more than you. I am not just leaving my boyfriend for you, I am also leaving my cat for you.” What I want to know is, how can I do things for my own happiness without her getting angry about it?

You can't do things for yourself without her getting angry, sad, happy or any other emotion...

That's up to her to sort through her emotions.

It's up to you to take care of yourself.

The more you let her to her and you do you...much better for everyone.

Best,

FF

So...wanted a separate post on my "point" I was driving at and I believe Baby Ducks was also making this point.

She is an empty shell.

As a result she will "grab onto" or "follow" the emotional leadership..and leadership in general of where YOU take the relationship.

So...if you go to an "argumentative" place..expect her to follow and "double down".

Much better for you to go to "neutral" because that will help her get to "neutral".

Now...once I figured this out for me in my relationship..it was empowering and also felt a bit unfair...because it seemed like it was putting the responsibility for the relationship "on me" and my pwBPD got a pass.


Well...it is unfair...but I assure you that "it is".  This is what you are dealing with and your leadership is critical for taking the relationship to a better place.

How does it feel reading all this?

Best,

FF

here is my take on this.    its not quite as simple as she is empty so she absorbs your emotion to fill her up.   to be honest we all do this to a small degree.   if I am near someone at work who is irritable and grumpy for sure that mood will rub off on me and I will be more likely to be grumpy myself.

so while I am sure there is some of that going on,... it is also true that your wife has a serious diagnosed mental illness that she is not doing the work to treat and maintain.    Good mental health is no different than good physical health.   it requires effort, maintenance, care support, whatever word you want to use.

as someone with a serious mental illness your wife will very likely always require more resources.    she will require more emotional resources like attention, affection, soothing, support.    as someone who feels chronically empty she will engage in frantic and maladaptive attempts to get her need for these resources met.    I believe it was livenlearned who once said, "that trying to survive the catastrophe of not being emotionally whole generates frantic efforts to acquire and hold items perceived as needs".   

perhaps said more simply,   pwBPD engage in frantic and competitive efforts to acquire people, things, items, memories in order to feel complete.   


to her there is a limited amount of this resource "love", there isn't enough to go around, its a competition to acquire "love", and if you don't acquire enough "love" you can become so empty you cease to exist.

now of course I am over simplifying this by a huge amount to illustrate a point.   she would not articulate things this way but if you look carefully you might see this theme underlying much of what she says and does.

and this is where being the emotional leader comes into play.   if your wife is attempting to get her needs met in maladaptive and harmful ways its up to you to be the emotional leader and make healthy choices about how to meet those needs.    I wouldn't say its up to you to teach her because to me that is codependent behavior.   I would say its for you to look at situations and make the best decision you can on how to engage that respects both of your needs.

making any sense?

I'm going to borrow a piece from your other thread:

lets unpack this.    on the surface level its about medication and babies and reminders.     lets look deeper.     what's going on waaaaay under the surface here?   

first:   “the baby is your child too so it’s your responsibility to remind me”.  isn't this a fallacy?    there are many different types of fallacies and if you are interested you can google but this is a logical fallacy.

if you look under the surface stuff what is her need / needs here?    I would guess and say two.    first she has an emotional need to share the responsibility and burden of child care.    however she is fearful of letting go of the control and being emotionally vulnerable and risking asking for help.   so she uses maladaptive strategies to get her need met.    Guilt.   if you don't do this the baby will suffer and it won't be my fault for forgetting it will be your fault.   Ugh.   Not good.

I would also guess the second need is for reassurance.   again the approach is less than healthy; prove to me you care for me and the baby by crossing this boundary.

to me, its caring to occasionally remind someone to have another glass of water, its caring to say 'I see you struggle with remembering your medication, can I show you how to set up reminders on your phone.'    I would say its caretaking to show up every X time with the pills and a glass of water.

its not so much about stopping supporting her but tweaking your support.   its not about not meeting her needs but meeting them in more appropriate ways.

what do you think?


'ducks

FF and ducks, thank you again for taking the time to share your thoughts. It is overwhelming to be learning so much life altering information in a short space of time. You guys are amazing and I couldn’t do it without you. I am in a much more positive place than when I joined here about six months ago. I feel I have more control over my life and my relationship. And hope for a better future. Your advice and wisdom is truly helping me along with the caretaking book.
FF I agree it is unfair. Life isn’t fair anyway, but when you relate your life partner is just miserable and impossible and takes things out on you and makes you feel utterly useless.. that’s why I felt so broken. And I couldn’t ever talk to anyone irl… I don’t know if I’ve ever met another caretaker but I’m thinking probably but we keep it well hidden, right? I think of those people who have a partner or anyone in their life with bpd… I think the lucky ones are those who found this forum.
Because I feel stronger, things are going better too. Today my wife went and got her hair done, took the little one and left the older one with me. This was a big step for her. She drove there, parked, walked… I didn’t stress her in advance about whether she knew where to go (she really didn’t but got through it). I know my lessening the caretaking will increase her confidence. I had a wonderful morning with my daughter. I did heaps of art with her but also got a load of housework done. And took lots of pictures, even one of the two of us. I had my shower, wore the top mum got me. And the interesting thing is my wife did not question any of the behaviour. Usually this day would have been a recipe for disaster. My wife was a little controlling, wanting to choose child’s outfit this morning and saying not to open a new toy cos she wanted to be there. And then wanted to know exactly what we did all morning. And I know it’s still not exactly what I want.. I would be happy if my daughter was wearing the dress my mum bought her. And if I could play the piano with her. And video call my mum. But I didn’t want to jump on all of these opportunities the second my wife left the house. And I know I need to somewhat tackle these things when she’s here. But these are goals for the future. As our children grow older I want things to be slowly becoming more normal around here. I know I can’t “fix” my wife. But as emotional leader, I am already seeing positive changes in her.

of course.    it is a lot to absorb.    its like trying to get a drink of water out of fire hose isn't it.   there's no rush to absorb this information.    I distinctly remember that I would read something here,  and then something would happen in my relationship and I would have a little flash of insight.    one of those ah-HA moments where I would say to myself Oh so that's what they were talking about.    I also remember times where I had no clue what was going on.  *)   its all okay.    as you know learning is a process.    always. 

Thanks ducks as always for your encouragement. This is a bit off topic, but your comment about the hose reminded me of when my relationship with my ex was breaking down and I was having dreams about uncontrollable floods of water and taps I couldn’t turn off. And one dream about being in a horrific car crash. Meanwhile he dreamt I was committing suicide jumping off a building. I totally got why as well. Well, last week I had this dream… I was in some kind of parade but I was floating along on this inflatable toy we use to sit the baby up. And some random person said, “that looks pretty cool..” and I said, “it is cool, just you can’t decide which way to go, you just have to go where the wind takes you…” Basically I’m sure it means I’m in a much better place than when I left my ex for my wife seven years ago. And that is clearly massive progress, because I’ve been stuck in that loss of control mindset for seven years and I am only now finding my way out of it due to this forum. Still out of control, but a bit more at peace…