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Despite having spent a good three years, on and off, learning about BPD, my focus was always on trying to understand how the disorder effected my exBPDgf, how I could cope and how I could change my own reactions to negate negative reaction.

Recently though, as I have read through all of the stories, the word that has struck a chord is "orbiter". Whomever coined this word was an absolute genius. It describe these people perfectly.

Who are they anyway? I mean we all have friends of the opposite sex, so there is communication between sexes even when one is dealing in a committed relationship, but these people are different. They cross boundaries and our pwBPD allow them to, like it's a game.

I have been in multiple situations, where an old girlfriend or even an old friend and I would start speaking about old times and I could feel the wind changing on both sides to a decidedly more intimate breeze. I would always gently pull back and in a couple of cases, I even said that it wasn't appropriate to go further down this path because either both parties were or at least one was in a committed relationship and that it wasn't fair to the respective partners to even speak to each other like this.

So why do these orbiters have no boundaries?

I suspect that there is no answer, but I thought it might be interesting to explore the source of the pain that many of us felt during our relationships.

Its not about "orbiters".

I think you may have this backwards. It's not about why men pursued your ex, men will always pursue women who are giving them the "green light".  Its about why your ex supported it - is giving them the "green light".

The term "orbitor" is misleading as it puts the focus on the third party when this is really all about the pwBPD traits.  Moving away from the junk psychology jargon, I think the real question here is:

Question: Why did my ex keep maintain "friendships" with other eligible men during my relationship?

Answer: Fear of abandonment.

It's may not be so obvious at first, but fear of abandonment is not our exes fear that we will leave them per se'- it's the lifestyle they adopt so that they are not vulnerable to this devastating fear.

Think of fear of heights.  A person with fear of heights does not gravitate to high places with  strong railings - they gravitate to low places. A person with a fear of abandonment does not gravitate to stronger relationships - they gravitate to a place of plentiful/replacement relationships and proxy relationships.

So, one way for a pwBPD to reduce their vulnerability is to have multiple sources of attachment or attachment in waiting.  These sources are can take form in many ways - but the common theme is that they (along with you) create a safety net against enduring fear of being abandonment, rejected, estranged.

Ironically, when they are most attached to you or the least attached to you (and therefore most vulnerable), they may also feel the greatest need for a safety net.  This is why we see what appears to be self-sabotaging, or relationship sabotaging behavior at time when the relationship is peaking or going into a valley in some way.

Myb exBPDh would always surround himself with girls and he always seek validation and admiration from them. He claimed it was because he had 4 sisters but there is so much more to it. During our 10 year marriage there was always some ex from the past trying to reconnect with him.

Yeah a pwBPD doesn't do the things they do because they are evil it is because underneath it all they are a terrified child.

Yes, unless there is some sociopath/narcissistic PD mixed into it. Then they are a bit more evil... .

We try to stay away from the term "evil" here. It's black and white thinking - good(us) vs evil(them) - and it is not helpful toward understanding the loaded relationship bonds we entered into and struggle we have with them after the relationship is over.


It's a bad analogy, but a dog is most dangerous when it is weak or afraid.  I think this is true of a relationship partner too.

No they don't.  I don't pursue women that are in relationships no matter what signal they give.

The way I define evil, then yes they are evil.

If something is not evil because you can place some of the blame on innate disposition or outside influences, then I feel the meaning of the term evil is diluted to a point where the word doesn't have much practical meaning.

BPDs have will, they have minds that make decisions, they are capable of perceiving reality... .if they do bad things over and over then they are in fact a bad person.

Personally, evil is a bit too mystical to me, so I won't use it too much.  But if a BPD is not evil, then a serial killer compelled by ASPD and an abusive childhood is not evil either.  Really, no one is because the concept of (absolute) free will is being pushed a bit too much.

Thank you Skip for reframing that! |iiii

What you say makes complete sense!

My xuBPDbf would get angry at his xuBPDw's uNPDh for: giving in to her, putting up with her, reinforcing her etc.  I guess it was projection on his part, projecting anger that would have been directed at himself unto her new H.  He would behave as though his exwife was a victim of her H and therefore less accountable for the vindictive behaviors she presented to us.

This infuriated me!  The woman abusing and using us and his D was in a way innocent in his eyes!  (While we were all being abused his focus was often on protecting HER!)

Looking back, I now think it helped him to cope with his bad feelings and guilt, just like all projection.

I wonder if he threw his projections instead of just off himself, to his exwife, but then a farther distance to her H... .I wonder if this helps to get the projection farther away from himself?  

What do you think about this "long distance projecting?" :light:

I was using "men" in the plural sense as there will always be [some] men that will... .


That you know about... .

It's not so black and white. What we don't know is what the other men have been told.


The person receiving these texts could very well have been a lover - you didn't know who it was at the time - and you believed what she told you (that she loved you).

This is often how it plays out.

I'm not defending anyone.  I'm not saying it is always this way (or another way).  

I am saying that it can be pretty murky and it mostly comes down to the partners behavior.  At the very least, it is their responsibility (and yours) to honor the relationship fidelity.

Great line of thought, Skip!

In our case, while her being socially isolated, yet men "popped out" from literally every avenues of life. The discussions instantly turned into sexually charged, a "strategy" she unconsciously utilized for bonding, sending out green light signals, teasing them in an unacceptable way for someone in a committed relationship.

One of them was a local librarian. I hope none of the members take it as an offense, but realistically speaking, an extremely attractive, sexually "liberal", tattooed, model like woman would be well out reach. Of course they(we) stick around with for the prospect of a once a lifetime ride.

The common denominator, orbiters/replacements alike, that we all had our own flawed idea of reference, making what the a pwBPD could offer extremely valuable.

I was never an orbiter. However, I was caught in a triangulation with one of her orbiters, an alcoholic exbf. He was a sad chap, completely broken by women. I am very sure that my BPDexgf had a lot to do with his demise.

My BPDexgf is strikingly attractive (On the outside mind you, we all know what's on the inside of a pwBPD, not pretty!). She was/is extremely adept at handling multiple men. As mentioned in a few previous post; her orbiters always, in my opinion, were beneath her; they were men who had problems. (This opinion was formed/valid before I knew of her problems.) I think she chose men with problems because they were easy to control. I never fit into that category, and that caused her problems. She told me on several occasions that I scared her... .I think she knew that she was never going to "handle" me.

But boy, did I ever put up with more insanity than I ever would have if she would not have been who she was, you can bet the house on it. Our history goes all the way back to childhood, so I ignored a lot of red flags flapping in the wind and a lot of emotional abuse. I am a very strong and intelligent man, but I let hope reign for a long time in the dysfunctional/chaotic relationship with my BPDexgf, far too long. I am not happy with my behavior regarding myself.

The true fact of the matter is that the common denominator in all of these post is the people with BPD. The orbiters were never the problem; the pwBPD is the problem. If a pwBPD could be trusted, orbiters would be a moot point. It's a sad existence no doubt.

   

Several years before we became a couple, I hired my ex for a job.  He was married at the time.  He worked with me 5 days a week for almost a year.  At first the green light was subtle.   Then not so subtle.  He was intense.  The flirting was intense.   

While I felt that his conduct with me was inappropriate, I concluded that he was acting-out because he was unhappy in his marriage.  The working relationship didn't evolve into a sexual relationship.  I feel, however, that we had an emotional affair during that time.  In my mind, that is cheating.  I'm not proud of it. 

Years later, after he divorced, we became a couple.  I inquired about his behavior years earlier.  He explained that his emotional needs weren't being met by his wife.  When we worked together, I met those needs.  (Listening, nurturing, reassurance, emotional support)

He repeated that cycle with my replacement.  His reasoning was I "would leave."  (Fear of abandonment.)

I don't really like the term "orbiters" either.  

I feel like it's a victim thought process --- and the thought that if we could somehow change the way people act or feel, our lives would be less complicated. Are we "annoyed" because they are annoying... .or because we're afraid? I mean if there weren't women willing to engage in an affair with a married man, affairs wouldn't happen.

Boundaries are about "us". We can only control "us".  

When I was single, I had many friends including men who were willing to have dinner with me with no strings attached. Or fix my car if I bought a six pack and kept him company while he did the work. Or watch a movie with nothing but a promise of microwave popcorn. Or listen to me whine as I complained about my job or ex-husband.

The boundaries were on me to be clear that I wasn't interested sexually. A lot of men were OK with that. Some weren't. If it got uncomfortable, the fact that I wasn't interested was reiterated.

I also think there are women (and men) who struggle in that arena, are willing to lead men on, and men who are willing to participate with a certain hope for a relationship.

Different values.

Sometimes it feels good to be in the presence of someone who you are attracted to, who makes you laugh, who has interesting stories to tell... .intimacy isn't always about romance. If boundaries are present in any relationship, friendship with anyone can be beneficial to all involved. I mean, I think of guy friends who have let me into the secrets of the man code. :)

I guess my point is to agree that it isn't so black and white.

Generalizing doesn't help the process either. For me, it's about learning to recognize unhealthy patterns in these relationships and growing from them. Figuring out what your own boundaries are and what you are willing to allow in your committed relationship.  

I 100% agree with you. Guys you can't blame her "guy friends" you do realize borderlines lie right? My ex had guys friends too and she ran me into the ground behind my back to get attention and money from them. Correct me if I'm wrong but... .I do believe we are here because we believe the (lie)... right?

A terrified child doesn't leave with your baby too never return. They do many evil things.

I am growing increasingly sorry that I asked this question because ultimately this is what turned me upside down in my relationship. I was a solid, secure and trusting man when I walked into this relationship but she just chipped away at that security with every passing event.

I couldn't believe that someone could be so blatant. Sometimes it wasn't even about an orbiter but rather comments like "every guy who drives a Porsche is hot" or "man that actor is hot" There were many occasions where I flat out said "I think about women on the street as beautiful or an actor, but I don't verbalize it, it's does not contribute to the dynamic of our relationship" Her response was " I don't like to be censored" What the heck?

But the orbiters I was speaking of were men that have been ex lovers or "close friends" for years. As there was no ring on her finger (because I refused to propose until she took the foot she had out the door in), I can't control the orbiters nor care about the ones who didn't even know I existed. On that front, yes it was the responsibility solely of my ex. She did pull back after a while, but it was likely just more hidden. The problem was at that point, my nerves had been so frayed that I had zero trust. I held almost everything in except when it was just too obvious. In the end she just proved me right.

Actually now that I have just written this all out, it is adding to the pile of "Thank God's" I keep adding up in my head, that I am out of that. I can't and will never be able to compute that kind of mentality.

That's what recovery is about. Asking the hard questions as to how the heck this happened? How did we allow it?

This stuff hurts. Some of the most painful experience in my life are when I've allowed myself to be treated poorly. It's embarrassing. It makes me angry that I allowed it. It hurts.  

From the Self-Inquiry pop-up -------------------->

In any process for working with feelings, it's important to find a way to explore your feelings that allows you both to be present with them (engage the emotion) at times and to stand aside from them (be impartial) and to know when each is appropriate. It sometimes helps to take little time to care for the part of you that needs comforting before you start this journey.


I verbalize when I think someone's good looking. Male or female.

The other night at the grand opening of a "Hooters" type establishment, I joked with my husband and my son as they were oogling at the waitresses. I actually accurately predicted who my husband would pick as the best looking waitress. I know his affinity to blondes with long legs.  He also knows to hug me for being the winner of that prediction. :)

But there's comfort and security in our relationship. There's boundaries. There's open communication.

When you are missing any one of those components, this happens:

"I think about women on the street as beautiful or an actor, but I don't verbalize it, it's does not contribute to the dynamic of our relationship"

 

Was that about your own insecurity in the relationship?

Was it about her lack of boundaries? Lack of impulse control?  

I can understand her being defensive if she didn't mean anything by it?  Or do you think she did it to make you jealous?  Feel bad?

I've been where you were at. Trust me... .I wanted to fight every guy. But it's worthless. Just like she is. Worthless. It's my fault I didn't kick to the curb.

Dream girl, thank you so much for the first part of your post (not that I am ungrateful about the second). I will put it to you this way, my ex wife used to flirt, from time to time, when we were in a club but she would glance over at me with a look that just said, I am just playing. I didn't think twice about it.

No this was more about it being a constant in the relationship with my exBPD. In and of itself, saying the two comments that I posted would have meant nothing to me, it was after you compiled all of the comments, the inappropriate hang outs, from time to time.

I brought up the orbiters for a reason, because the old boyfriends contacting her etc... .it just chipped away at me slowly but surely. The examples I gave were probably not good ones. It was inappropriate phone conversations that had sexual undertones (often speaking of the past not what was desired now but still) It was all too much.

Your example with you and your husband, I am totally comfortable with that, in fact my ex wife and I had no problem expressing these types of little things. Being a very secure man, I would agree if I saw a good looking guy and vice versa.

I could get into much more that would bolster my "case" but it's not necessary.

I spent four years absorbing all of it and trying to be strong. I have said it before, I actually trust that she was faithful but man did she get so close to the boundary. It was sensory overload. So no, it wasn't about my own insecurities. I am a good looking, fit 47 year old man who looks quite a bit younger.

Again, I am deeply grateful for your section on recovery. I guess I am not completely there yet but I am damn close.  

thanks hurting, you are 100% right!

What really bothered you in these events? 

Can you narrow it - pinpoint it?

~Betrayal?

~Trust?

~Invalidation?

~Disrespect?

My experience with this is that if someone comes on to you or your partner the thing to do is shut them down before they can construe that the involvement will not becoming intimate. When I was hit on, this is exactly what I'd do. I mean in reality you can't stop people from doing that. But you can stop them from thinking if they have a chance or not.

My uBPDexgf on the other hand didn't do this. I don't know if she enjoyed the attention, if she wanted to make me jealous or what. But I do know that if anyone, particularly women, acted like they were coming on to her she was all for that. Don't ask me why. But I really think due to her responses of happiness that they were hitting on her, that it was mostly to stroke her weak ego.

The point I'm making is that people in her life will only presume they can "move in" if they're given the permission that it's ok to do so. If someone is orbiting another it's because they have the impression that it's all right to do so. I am pretty sure the folks who she kept in the back burners of her life are there because she has told them it's all right to be there. Otherwise who stays where they aren't wanted?

Sounds like a gal who is pushing your buttons for a reaction from you.

Sounds like she knew it would wear you down.

Getting you frustrated likely made her feel like she matters to you?

Skip,

What really bothered you in these events?  

Can you narrow it - pinpoint it?

~Betrayal?

~Trust?

~Invalidation?

~Disrespect?

That is difficult to answer because these are feelings that insert themselves at different times. Yes, disrespect, when they were happening. Shadowinthenight expressed it all perfectly. Trust erosion followed and like silt, kept eroding. After a while it did become betrayal. Invalidation has never been an issue for me. I have always and am still confident enough, but the three effects mentioned have been sufficient to cause a great deal of pain. Confusion too, because as Shadow mentioned, I would never put a loving partner through any of it. Again it is about the whole and not the parts.

Sunflower, I wish I read it like that but I don't. It was too callous and when I would finally go up to her, while she was on the phone with a "what the heck?" look, it was almost as if I was overreacting and kind of interfering. Maybe then, skip, there was invalidation. That she couldn't see how innappropriate it was. Now, this didn't happen every day or even every week, but enough over the course of 4 years to break the strongest. Especially when she was drinking, because she was off another planet. No, it was pure stroking of the ego.

Getting in touch with the real feeling is essential to healing it. We often avoid it as it is painful and go after other safe targets - getting down to what hurt will help you understand, heal, and avoid it going forward.

She likely signaled this for some time but you didn't know how painful it would ultimately be for you.

Now you can figure it out.

This sounds very much like a version of my question about why an ex would tell me "I am in our relationship because I want to be not because I need to be." Who tells their partner such a lame thing? But her reason for doing it, I am clear now was a way to keep me off balance.

I've been reading a book about Emotional Blackmail and keeping your partner on the defensive and off balance is a way for them to maintain control of you in the relationship. My ex would tell me the kinds of the things you're talking about tho she never mentioned the things like Porsches, etc. hers was more on the lines of I heard from the guy I dated before my exH.

Do you think that guy emailed her out of the blue? No, she contacted him. Told him she was divorced and oh btw, forgot to mention she had been in a relationship for, at that time, 2 years. She also told me about other ex's or former "friends" contacting her and asking how she was. That I know of she never mentioned she was in a relationship. Why did she tell me, to be upfront in our relationship? No. It was just another subtle way of her telling me she could leave at anytime.

And you know, if you put a ring on it and indeed married her, she'd still find a way to get gone. That is their total MO even when they are married. I am sorry we both experienced such disrespect to ourselves.

You are correct skip. I buried them and she had me believing that I was overeating. But I couldn't shake my moral foundation. She grew up under different circumstances than I, often with men who had less ethical boundaries. I can assure that I am no saint, I have lived but there are different levels. I pulled her out of a huge coke habit and away from a "career" where she was not a participant but rather an administrator. I know, because she would call me when she was having a rough night with a bunch of dramatic girls, she was dealing with.

She thanked me over and over again for giving her a sense of normalcy, of stability and of structure. That I gave her a feeling of being part of something good. We drank and danced and smoked a little but I was not interested in the hard stuff anymore. In other words, she didn't fall into a house of worship, but it was calm and away from that life.

So some of it was generated, especially when she was drinking, by a habit of being around a bunch of people with loose morals, for so long, where one might be with a partner who would speak to another in such loose terms, without it being a big deal. But she recounted several stories to me when she was with her ex husband where he blatantly almost pushed her aside while he would pant heavily over some girl. I mean she lived it and it hurt, so why could she not see that it was wrong for her to do to me?

Unfortunately, it had nothing to do with trying to goat me but rather that she enjoyed the attention and fed off of it. It broke me and in the end she simply proved what I had worried about all along.

Shadow, she did that to me all the time. This guy said this, this guy said he wanted to marry me. I was, like, I don't give a f%%%, why are you telling me this? However, your explanation of emotional blackmail is quite revealing. The benefit of keeping us constantly unstable though is beyond me.

Oh, sorry!  I see how this is different than what I was referring to.  Crud! :/

So just to throw this out there ---- the very exact moment I decided to leave my exH was at a night club.

It involved the warm fuzzy feeling of indifference as he was doing a rendition of a Dirty Dancing scene with some nurse on the dance floor. It certainly wasn't the first time, I'd grown accustomed to it.

So the "What the heck?" was directed this time at me. It was a friend who said to me, "I think you know that you  deserve better than that?"

I did deserve better, fundamentally I knew it. There are reasons I didn't say a word to him. I have my own tale of woes and there were lots and lots of reasons I allowed my own boundaries to be plowed over.

I was also a cool, confident woman with lots of sass who can hold my own on a construction site and in a black dress with a pair of stilettos. Underneath all that though is that human part of me with my own abandonment fears. My own secret garden of doubt and pain. I can blame my exhusband for a lot of things and he was guilty of a lot mistreatment. In the end though, there are reasons I let him in. There are reasons he thought it was OK to put me down and grind on nurses with me sipping on a Pina Colada 10 feet away. There are reasons I ate it all up with a knife and fork and then kindly asked for more.

I think it just helps to figure out those reasons, so we don't let history repeat itself. :)


That would be pretty invalidating.  

Why didn't you say anything?

Did you verbalize any of your discomfort when she was actually on this planet?

The beauty of all of this, is that I am completely letting go now. I wouldn't return to that if I was paid a billion (a million no longer holds the value that it used to) Look, I made a joke. That's a good sign. It's all very sad. I truly loved her warts and all but I am so glad to be out.

She was more focused on her interpretation of gratification of "love?"  Unable to cognitively consider another?  This included You? 

It's beyond me as well. I loved my gf. She knew this and it made (makes even now) little sense that she thought she needed to keep me off balance to control me. Maybe in her mixed up head she thought if I found out about the real her I would bolt. I guess if I knew that the real her seems to be that she's a liar, a cheater, a grifter, and blatantly narcisstitc to the point that you'd think she was the most gorgeous woman in earth, then yeah, I'd probably leave that. But that ugly so and so didn't show up for years. Until that person showed up, she was pretty awesome.

And the reason that it doesn't make sense to us is that we're upfront people. If you know who you are, you don't have to keep everyone else off balance.

Limbo, is this ultimately trace to betrayal trauma? Her trip to meet another man?

I did dreamgirl, but her response was always, "you didn't hear both sides of the conversation and shouldn't have been eavesdropping. You were overreacting to nothing." There is no come back to that, there is no rebuttal. Trust me, I didn't just walk away and say "oh ok". She is a waif/queen and I got a lot of queen.

Yes, skip, that is exactly what it was. But it was more, because one of the things she professed to me over and over again was that she would never do that to me (court another man) without telling me that she was doing so. There was a component of complete determination when she said this. It wasn't "oh honey, I promise" but rather "hey, if it happens, you will be the first to know" She was absolutely succinct about her independence and it's importance in her infrastructure. So, while any news of her courting a new man would have been devastating, I stuck to that statement of hers that if she did, she would. She didn't. She lied and blatantly. So yes, I felt betrayed, not only because she went after someone else but because she didn't do what she promised she would. She chose the cop out route. Both betrayals.

She did recount stories where she was devoted to another man and got burned, so by the time she got to me... .with that said she could also be so kind, thoughtful (not fake mirroring). She genuinely wanted to help at times, she wasn't asking for anything, she was just kind. This is why I see two sides, but then the switch went off and it was someone else. Cold, hard, unmoved.

I spoke with her Mother several times, on the phone (she lived across country) and while polite and classy, she was monotone and you could hear the stern adherence to decorum in her voice. This was her Mother coming out of her. I know that she started life as a very caring sweet person but her Mother was a battle axe.

I mean I could recount so much but this has been probably the most therapeutic dialogue I have had to date on BPD Family. You are an amazing bunch, thank you. This doesn't mean that I am done engaging but this felt like an appropriate time to express these thoughts. Man what a f*&^%$ journey!

A betrayal bond is a huge wound, LimboFL. Huge.

Maybe you are getting lost in the ancillary parts of it and not getting down to the center of this. If its a betrayal trauma, its not about orbiters or all these secondary/tertiary issues - its about the essence of making yourself completely vulnerable to someone, believing in them and the life you share, and having it shattered.

If this is how the relationship ended - even worse.

Shadow, that is probably the most frustrating part of it all. I even said to her "do you think I am still here because this relationship has been a f*&^%^$ walk in the park. Don't you understand that I see and know more than I have expressed, that while I can't understand, that I see and that I am still f*&^%$ here!"

Skip, you are absolutely right ( I won't tell you how emotional I am now ). It is huge and the pain has been immense. I gave so much, took her out of such a difficult situation... .So much of any stress that I imposed (not all) was in reaction to her "misbehavior". There were a number of times were I finally started just saying 'don't you understand that it's inappropriate behavior for someone in a committed relationship" She wouldn't react negatively to that, in fact I felt like I was finally using a term that she could relate to and she would stand down. In fact, as I write this, her demeanor was almost like that of a child but because I chose non threatening language, she didn't rebel.

Yes, I feel betrayed by her and it hurts deeply but I have been getting angry and more and more realize what I put myself through. That ultimately, while I knew there was a wonderful human being under there, that I would never have been able to coax that person out. She was buried in that complex layer of protective skin and like a turtle simply wasn't going to be able to come out. She was simply more comfortable living what she knew and I likely, without any demands, was simply asking too much.

I will not walk away from this thinking that I was some saint. I have my own flaws. I wasn't trying to save her but again simply to try and coax out the woman inside, because she did have moments of vulnerability where she did show herself but then it was a fast retreat.

Great story DreamGirl!

It's so obvious that you did. This is what makes it hurt so much.  

You were connected to this person and you invested a lot in her. Letting go of someone we love is really hard. Even when we know it's for the best. There is truth that a pwBPD finds comfort in chaos and will sometimes invoke chaos in the world surrounding them to soothe themselves. There are also reasons that we are drawn to that chaos. To trying to fix it. There's her part, there's your part. There's the perfect storm.

It's really beneficial to breakdown the loss like what you're doing. It's also why it's suggested that we dissect the feelings as they wash over us.  

Why am I so angry? Is it because I'm hurt? Wounded?

That kind of stuff.  

Many of my friends told me over and over that I shouldn't be so mad at my replacement, but rather her. On older friend, a mentor, even asked me, "why are you mad at him at all?" Guys (and gals) like him (who happened to be a bouncer at a club) are always out there, trolling. She's the one who chose to respond and open herself up as "available" even though he knew she was in a r/s, and at the club with me watching her little kids at home.

They are who they are, and boundaries are about us. I remember the night that she told me she exchanged numbers with him, and I commented, "do you really think that is proper?" Followed with, "he only wants your number for one reason," to which she replied, "what? So I can't have male friends now?" No, I never had an issue with her male friends or even her "work husband" we used to joke about. Of course the bouncer (now her fiancee) wanted her, but she wanted him, too.

Yes, I still feel righteous indignation by telling myself, "you don't cross that boundary," but my values aren't shared by everybody, are they? There are well over a billion or more people on the planet whose values perhaps fundamentally differ from mine. Each of them, including the mother of our children, is an independent entity with their own free will, and responsible for their own choices.

Dreamgirl, we all will return to our former strength. You sound like you already have and I am not far behind.

I think that one of the most difficult parts of all of this is how surreal it all seems. Their actions are so beyond our comprehension that it's almost impossible to process.

How on God's green earth could a man think that it is even remotely acceptable to grind on another woman in front of his partner, or for my ex to do the things she did. This is the part that we are unable to connect with.

For what continues to be an increasing understanding of BPD, there are just some areas we will simply never be able to process because these are beyond our capacity to understand.

I don't want to over simplify this and forgive me if this sounds that way... .

Recovering is acknowledging the wound, then grieving the wound, the healing the wound.  Its one step at a time and its important to fully emerge yourself in each step.

It sounds like you are still acknowledging the wound.  :)o feel a need to rush through the next steps - acknowledge the wound. Lay it out there for you to see all the parts of it.  Share it here. Get your hands around the totality of this and why it hurts so much.

Then go on to the next steps.

Oversimplification, I know.  I hope it helps.

Very well said. this is exactly what I have been using to kick the crap out of this.

It is normal, however, to have some anger to this unknown entity (unknown in my case because I rolled immediately) but it is more about why did you have to... .but ultimately, yes, it is 100% about our ex's. The blame and the fault lies at their feet entirely.

I am going back to something Raisin said a number of posts back. In our attempt to reason with it all, from time to time, we revert to the disorder, as though our ex's have no control... .but they do. They make conscious (albeit irresponsible and hurtful) decisions (that are founded on the psychology they know best and feel most comfortable with) but I know my ex can determine right from wrong.

The only diferentiator is the phenomenon of detachment, where they go completely cold. They don't go of into some lala land but the detachment affords them the comfort of deciding to simply say goodbye to one, no matter how long or arduous the investment on the part of the partner was and move onto the next because that new toy is causing a bubble up of those good feelings. Without the empathy component, they don't believe that they are doing anything wrong.

Thank you Dreamgirl. I appreciate the recognition that, at least to me, this was very real and yes there was a lot of investment.

Skip, you are a champ. Thank you. Here is the funny part, a week ago, prior to my 2 day (cut short by me) recycle, I was smiling, happy, had had a wonderful email chat with a very pretty nurse through a dating site and was feeling completely out of it. So I know that it's possible and how it feels.

Getting thrown back into it, because I had no other choice (her dog and companion of 16 years had a massive stroke and without a car she needed help). I was love bombed and it felt very good. I was cautious mind you but it felt good. Then retreat, conformation that just the week before she was on that trip and I am gone. I helped her take the pup ( who I love dearly ) to the vet and even paid, so I did help so feel no guilt, but that threw me back into the loop. It did serve as a reminder. If I hadn't had found proof, I would likely still be helping her, taking her to work, taking care of the dog etc. Finding that proof saved me, it really did.

Maybe it is the finality, because my last text to her was "please never contact me again, you swore by your honesty, Wow, wrong!"

Closure! Not desired but necessary.

I am processing and will be fine. It's just that some very deep things have been revealed in this thread and some comprehension of emotional impact were shared, which have been a comfort in their recognition, a validation, which is why we are all here.

Thank you!

We are all paying it forward,  LimboFL .

Again, before its goes to blame, maybe it will be easier to just observe and embrace the wound. If you were in a car wreck and had a serious injury - your thoughts would center on the injury - not who was at fault.  Save that for later.  In a lot of ways, its not that important anymore - its over.

One thing that I learned, personally, is that as hurtful as the other person may have been, we can get stuck if we get caught up in anger and bitterness toward them - we have to fight ourselves a bit to stay emotionally clean.

Anger is part of the grieving process. It's time will come.  But anger can also be a form of denial for us early on - you don't want that - and you sound very early in this.

 (in masculine way)

Feel it.  Get it all out.  Cry over it (in whatever way you cry).  Purge the emotion.

Then start grieving.

******I crossed with Skip, with some of the same sentiment.

I like simplicity.

I also wouldn't get too wrapped up in the blame game. It's counter-productive. The roles we played comes later.


Thing is... .the BPD mind is mysterious.

I also think you have every capability of understanding it. Once you can separate a little bit from the emotional aspect of it (where it feels really personal), we find ourselves in a place to let the knowledge sink in.

Not that you condone any of what happened, just an ability to wrap your head around it. See it as a stepping stone in your journey.

For the record, I am not a blame game type. Hopefully my expressions of caring and compassion prove that real anger is not going to come from me. I don't need it to get passed this. I am processing and tomorrow is another day. I will not remain in this, in fact, I was ok all day. I am not too far from the end. I won't allow myself to go through this much longer. However, as you say skip, it is a process and we have to allow it to take it's course, as hard as it may be.

Thank you everyone.

I think there is truth for me in some of what ur saying. I think I wanted to prove to her that she could have a loving caring relationship and be valued and loved for herself. I wanted to give her comfort, strength, humor, relaxation, all the things she claimed had been missing in her life. It's just the way you've said it here solidifies it for me that that was what I was striving for. I was trying to be the calm port in the storms of her life and even though I was, she didn't want the port. She preferred the storms.

I agree dreamgirl. However, while we may be able to reason around it, unless we live it, it will remain a confounding unknown. To be honest, I don't ever want to know what it is like, which is exactly why I was so compassionate (within reason). I never tried to save or change but rather saw her grapple with it day after day. It was heartbreaking until it led to betrayal. Once it crossed that line in the sand, the die was cast.

I was trying to be the calm port in the storms of her life and even though I was, she didn't want the port. She preferred the storms.

Beautifully said Shadow. This is exactly how I felt and what I had hoped.

thank you for the hugs and the heart, Dreamgirl, needed! I can't wait to get a real hug when I am ready for a new relationship. =)

Thank you all, again, this has been very cathartic and therapeutic. Great bunch. Wish I could meet you all!

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