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My friendship with my ex slowly developed into including physical intimacy.

He was also a big help getting my new home in order and some remodel projects.

We did not have a promised or committed r/s other than a promise to be honest and treat eachother well.

He reported that his work in T was directed toward developing interests and friendships that round out his life, instead of his pattern of women only connections. He was to strengthen his ability to be alone and not emotionally dependent on a woman(en). He engaged in several significant projects/activities during our time together that were for him, and did not include me, which I enthusiastically supported, including sports re: trips and a weekend away with a man's process group that he was very excited about.

The high of the mens weekend followed with a crash, and he's been a bit dysphoric since.

This led to our discussion (I posted here) where he complained I was not "eferevesent" enough for him. I maintained it was his job to cope with his depressed/anxious/bored  feelings, not mine. I can't fix it for him. He seemed a bit better in ensuing weeks.

I then had some family events that preoccupied my weekends for about a month; he was welcome to attend but chose not to.

We resumed seeing eachother on weekends when my other engagements were completed.

Last weekend, after he got back from his own trip with his kids, he tearfully indicated that he loved me but he needed to let me know he had been spending a lot of time (just recently while I was involved in my own enhsgements) with another woman and had had sex with her. He told me this Sun morning after having slept all night in my bed with me (no sex, which is why I asked him what was wrong).  He wanted to be honest, and knew our physical r/s had to end since he has now started sleeping  with another woman.

So that is that. I told him he needs to stop spending weekends here, obviously, and attend to his NEW relationship.

So, nothing too new or too surprising to report. Same old same old.

In the past, his need to find another woman was blamed on my hyper-vigilance, and not allowing him his freedom. This time, he had total freedom, but still needs another woman and can't tolerate any alone time whatsoever.

So, at least I know it's definitely not all me, and his stuff really has little to do with me, or any particular woman, at all.

How are you feeling about this MaybeSo?

You seem "matter-of-fact" - which isn't a bad thing at all.

Ouch.  I'm sorry MaybeSo.  You sound in a good place, but it would still hurt me, if I had gotten close to him again (which I would have if we were having sex).  Not sure if your agreement included that you were both free to see and be intimate with other people?

I once asked my pwBPD if he was afraid to be alone.  He answered emphatically that he wasn't.  Looking at his actions and what he has reported to me, I suspect that he hasn't been without a relationship or lover continuously in the last 10+ years.

I like seeking balance's question: how are you feeling? 

I do feel pretty matter of fact.

People are who they are.

I bit the hook a little: regarding his current T goals. There was a underlying theme that his work to round-out his life and tolerate some time alone and havd more autonomy was so he could be more available for a real relationship with me ( or someone, eventually ) ... . but it got by-passed once again with his drug of choice... . the next new peak experience. At least that is how I see it.  He moves between acknowledging it's the same old pattern, and a belief or hope that THIS one is the one. Eye roll. Before he left, he eye rolled himself, and said "we both know exactly how this will turn out."

Still, he is off having a peak experience with his NEW lover, and I'm once again left alone,

having to once again go without  both my lover and my friends company. (I have other friends,

but no other lovers!)

So, what that tells me is that I need to take better care of my own needs. I need a lover that

doesn't just blow me off overnight for someone else,  so I'd better work to manifest that for

myself. Cause THIS man certainly isn't going to meet that need.

So, where do you find a healthy lover that doesn't have major attachment issues? Or, on some level, maybe this works for me just as it is.

wise words - sometimes we just are not done until we are done.


Do you want the real answer on this?

I don't know.

What I do know is this:

Most people have issues, to what degree, only with time can we find out.  Accepting "less than" means that I might go for months or ... . gulp... . years, without having lovers, but I am finally ok with that.  I don't want "good enough".  Having this new found, I dunno - self respect (not sure what to call it really) means that I have broken up with a few people now after 6 - 8 weeks because their patterns of attachment were just not going to work for me... . breaking up with people sucks, big time - but, I just would resent myself and them if I were seeing patterns yet going down the path.

So, where do you find them?  No idea - but I know that it takes time to actually date to see if the words and actions are aligned.


I am glad you are ok - I am sure there is some sadness, lonely feelings - but not devastating. 

Thank you, and yes, bummed out, but not devastated.

It appears he technically was honest with me according to our agreements (don't sleep with me if you are sleeping with someone else) though part of that is just based on trusting his reporting,  I dont really have anyway of verifying when he actually started this up and/or slept with her. What I do know from the timing of his confession, is that the margins were paper thin, meaning... . he left my bed and very quickly jumped into her bed. Possibly the very same day he was last with me intimately... . because later that nite his daughter called super late wondering if he was in bed with me. She expected him home by 9pm and it was 11pm and she was getting worried. I was at an event with some girlfriends, and my first thought was, he's not in bed with me, so he's probably in bed with someone else... . though I of course didn't say anything to his daughter like that. So, I suspect he was with the new woman that night. Whenever his daughter

is looking for him late at night, it always has to do with some

female.

So, again, he did not sleep with me again after that night, so he was technically in accordance with

our agreement. But he didn't share about the new woman until he got back from his trip with

his kids. He let me send loving text messages and call him in Europe for 3 weeks, and his

romance with this gal was already in full swing. He was receiving text messages from both of us

during the entire 3 weeks of his trip away while I remained ignorant. Oh, but the other woman "knows all about me".

I myself would not treat a friend that way. I would not let a lover think all is well for 3 weeks

and accept loving text messages from two lovers at the same time.

But, I know he is very different than me in this way. Very different. And I already know that.

For me it was the lying by omission and the half truths that not angered me but I guess for want of a better word caused me damage. In the last years I was so far disconnected that it really didn't devastate me either when I found out about the other women. In fact I  saw them as a blessing, my free out of jail card! What was hard was feeling ignorant of all that was going on behind my back. I'm sorry maybeso.

Cumulous, I agree, in a way, it ends up feeling like a blessing. Thank you for your support.

MaybeSo ... . that sounds very hard.  The paper thin margin, the simultaneity, like you're saying.  And I guess also, it seems hard because you have been as fair and loving and accepting toward him as a person could possibly be.  Talk about meeting him where he's at!  And yet, the truth is, he treated you poorly.  According to any set of rules.  That sucks, and it isn't fair.

You know much of my story with my ex.  Our friendship is underway again.  Without plowing into the details here, he is being really warm & solicitous now, & it is such a struggle for me to make myself be honest with myself about all I really do know about how he works and how his feelings work.  I sure do wish it were different.  I know you do, too.  We have a lot of background with these men by now (you more than me) and obviously we have a lot in common and find each other compelling in some kind of enduring way.  For goodness's sake, that should be enough!  But it isn't for them.  It's as if they are so de-sensitized by "peak experiences" as you say, that they cannot cherish and value the depth and sweetness and forgiveness and shared history and, recently at least, principled interpersonal practices, that we have with them.  Such a bummer.

I am not going to have sex with my ex.  Not. Going. To. Have. Sex. With. My. Ex.  But for your story, I think I might have (we are about to have a reunion in a third city and I'm sure we'll have a wonderful time -- and with anyone else about whom I felt this way, I'd completely be open to a sexual reunion too).  But I KNOW where it will go after that.  And I don't want him to disappoint me again.  I really don't.  I want us to stay on ground we can, possibly, both sustain without betrayal.

You've written that you weren't sure about sharing your post-r/s experiment with "friendship" here because it seems to trip the tripwires of so many members, and people get all caught up in sharing their view that it's not a good idea, maybe you shouldn't value this or want this, etc.  I always meant to write you that I am so glad you DO share about this.  It is super helpful to the rest of us who are trying to have some kind of worthwhile, healthy, principled connection with pwBPD after the more standard romance scenario comes to a close.  I hope you feel supported enough that it is worthwhile to you, too.  You're still my BPD (ex)partner role model.

MaybeSo, I also want to thank you for sharing this story. It's been more helpful to me than you can know. My divorce was final a couple weeks ago, my ex still works for me and will continue to do so for probably a very long time, and I am somewhat struggling to figure out how to be friends with him. It's an internal struggle for me--he isn't BPD, he's bipolar, so it's almost the opposite problem. I feel empathy or closeness for him and he's completely oblivious. Always was. We were married for 18 years. I guess it has become a habit for me now to continue to deny the reality and cling to the unrealistic hope that he will suddenly, magically become capable of the genuine and sincere emotional interaction required of an intimate relationship. I've been on the verge of wanting to initiate physical/sexual interaction with him (which he would probably go along with). This is a terrible idea. No, your story isn't the same as mine, but it helps me put mine into perspective again, and be reminded why I divorced him in the first place. Thanks for sharing, and sorry for what you have been/are going through with this.

You do sound disappointed rather than broken by what he has done this time, which was well, hurtful without being a full-blown betrayal.   I'm still sorry you went through this.


I'm not sure if you are saying that as if it was a good thing or a bad thing, looking back at it right now.

Are you re-thinking what role he can fulfill in your life that will be healthy for you going forward?

Well, this sounds like progress actually... .   Honesty (albeit 3 weeks late) has been injected into your relationship and with that comes consequences using your honest to goodness boundaries.  He doesn't get to enjoy the best of both worlds, with all that comes with it-- women fighting over him, drilling home the point of how messed up he is, pushing and pulling and oh so comfortable for him, all that negativity... .   While you get to enjoy your strength and dignity.

It's hard, no matter what though.


This resonates with me.  I am not in a place in my life to have a full-blown relationship, 24/7.  There are too many things I'm finding out about myself that would make a full-on relationship feel claustrophobic.  And by full-on, maybe I'm still referring to an imagined relationship and injecting my own yucky past experiences into the future; not sure.  But it sure doesn't sound (or look too much different in print), than how my pwBPD behaves in life and love... .   So, we're pretty level in our attachment issues.

I do know that I feel content for the most part, so I go with that feeling... .   Use it as a home-base.  When contentment vanishes, there's more work on me that needs tending to... .

Is having a friend/lover without attachment issues big on your list?  Does becoming attachment-issue-free yourself take a higher priority?  Are you pretty content with your life as it is, with or without him or anyone else (friend/lover) in it?  Would you still like him to be in your life in some capacity?

Ah, life... .

Hi Grey Kitty,

I guess in theory I would have refrained from the sexual component, that was how the friendship began, and it stayed that way for a long time.

He was overlapping then, too, paper thin margins,  I was aware a year r/s with another women had not been fully put to rest and I didn't sleep with him because I do not like the paper thin margins thing. Much later I knew that r/s had totally crashed & burned, and we were still hanging out on weekends at my new place. I still held off for a while because I was weighing the pros & cons of added venerability for me, knowing he is a guy who can't sit still very long. Eventually I decided to allow for sex in our relationship because I wanted to make sure my needs were met as best as I could given who he really is, if I'm going to spend anytime with

him. He never stays, he will have a mood swing and eventually wander off. But I lived with him

on and off for 5 years, helped rsise his kids, and he is like a husband. I also know i can go

years before finding a lover I feel comfortable with, years. I'm 49. I enjoy that part of life. I

never know if I will find that again with someone else, and I'm not good at going out and finding

someone "new". He's very good at that, I'm not. Historically, it takes me a long, long time to

end a relationship and then start another. I've gone up to six years with no lover, and that was

in my late 30s.  I have had many years single and alone, and i can be fine, but i do enjoy having sex, moreso now than when i was younger. At 49, i may be alone for a long time. I have

been with no one but my ex since we met. And I don't meet men everyday I am attracted to,

in fact, it almost never happens. My ex and I were nearly NC for a year, I met no one, and of

course I was grieving. He was in love with another woman w/n three months, just like that.  

So I chose not to hold back or deny myself with him.  Yea, it made me more  vulnerable,  but

its not like I'm a naive teenager anymore, and I harbor NO more schoolgirl fantasies about him.

So I don't regret that I allowed myself to enjoy that part of the relationship. This guy is very, very challenging. If he's going to be in my space, I wanted to make sure it worked for ME; i have given and given and done the codep rescue and sacrafice thing with him, ive done that, ive sacraficed and denied myself and worked my ass off for him, in the hope id get my needs met. Bull-sh@@ way to live. My focus was different this time. How is this working for me? How can i get my needs met given the real limitations of this guys personality? I let him put money

into improvements needed on my new house, I let

him tinker and fix and repair things, we made love, we laughed and went out to dinner, we

drank nice wines, we talked about our kids, and work family and how weird life is. This worked for me. I did not do any rescue or control operations with him at all. 

When he gets into his moody dark place, he is not easy to be around, and there was some of that, too. Didn't make it my job to fix it.

And ... .

we hung out until he met someone else and now he's busy with the new woman.  That's pretty

much what I  thought would happen.

123phoebe,

Yea, to be honest, having a lover on the weekends, with the flexibility to go do other things with my gf's on some of the weekends, really worked for me at this stage of my life. I work long hours during the week in a very intense setting. I don't want to chat when I come home at night, I want peace and quiet and to get grounded and recharged. Do I want 24/7 relationship right now? No. Probably not.

If my ex and I could have maintained this without his need to seek constant attention from other women, if he could tolerate some alone time and be faithful, this would have really worked for me.

Hi P&C,

Good to hear from you!

I know we both wish these men were not broken in this way. It is truly a shame.

Enjoy your time with your friend, and work to keep in touch with yourself. All we can do is deal with reality as it is.

|iiii

Ex contacted me a while back, June?  He was going through a rough time, thinking about meds, would ride his bike 2 blocks and have to turn around and go back home.  I was doing pretty good, felt some validation that he with no interference/pushing/coercion from me wanted help.  Kind of threw the all my fault out the window.

Then the fires and he is a volunteer fireman.  I saw the fire start from the 5 story building I work in.  I texted him "Be careful".  He texted back, 'this is going to suck'.  The fire was bad, I watched the wind kick up so fast and I could see white smoke and then black smoke as it took out home after home.  This went on for several days until they had containment.  I spoke with ex a couple times on what was going on because the news wasn't saying much.  I burst out crying when I saw a fire truck driving on the road.  I was so scared for ex.  He would text, your boss' home is ok, not sure on your friend xyz house.  I wanted to tell my evacuated boss this info but thought, what if ex is wrong?  Best keep it to myself.  Work got voluntarily evacuated and I stayed away, I couldn't handle watching the white smoke, then black and knowing ex was in there.

Afterward, days after the fire was out and people were returning to see if they had a house, how bad the woods were burned, ex and I chatted, phone, text, emails.  It came to light that during his issues in June was when his daughter (wifey) was visiting her mother.  Now our convos have dribbled off to nothing and it hurts, not as bad as when we broke up last year in July but still pretty bad.  I see how easy it is to hook back up but I can't handle his nonchalance towards me and his deep enmeshment with his daughter (wife).  She takes care of his emotional needs, like the type of wife he wants.  If he ever hooks up sexually with anyone, I know the daughter (wife) will take that woman out, passive/aggressively, just like she did me.

So I can relate to your feelings Maybeso, the easy comradery we have with our ex's and the sadness that they can never be who we need in a partner.

Maybeso, you seem to be saying that you would like intimacy and sex in a r/s, but don't want a full-blown 'move-in-and-share-all-your-time-and-finances-and-everything' kind of relationship.

And that your ex provided this, but not quite in the way you wanted. You found ways to be with him that worked around many of his BPD issues... . but they didn't go away. Still it worked well enough for you while he was interested in it, and now he's not.

I'm feeling optimistic right now. I bet there *is* a guy out there who you would be able to connect with, who has compatible needs and desires... . and isn't covered with red-flag

Are you interested in looking for a guy like this?

GK--I think MaybeSo's guy IS interested in the deal, it's just that he has introduced an element that crosses MS's current boundaries (sex & pursuing a r/s with another woman). Small point but I think it matters--this is a question of MS's choice as much or more than his.

MS, you said he was tearful. Does he express regret about the implications of this choice he's making? Well, that could be illuminating for him over time.

As a quick update, I already got a long worded message from my ex last night.

I expected all quiet for, oh, two to even 6 months... . but with some contact around month 4 as his interest in the OW burns down and the usual dismay kicks in. But I guess this OW hasn't quite cut the mustard cause he's already on the down swing... .

and I already heard from him Sun night, long text about how he met with his T and he is ashamed of his behavior, is in an full 'owning my sh$$' mode right now, pretty down on himself, and he is moving into the "I am going to do anything and everything to get better so I don't do this self-destructive crap anymore" mode.  He is reading a book recommended by T called Infidelity (a buddist take on the subject) and several other books about taking care of yourself.

We have had many such rejuvenation of efforts toward healing in the past, too. They ebb and flow, depending how he is feeling. I don't go so far as to say he is not sincere, he continues even 8 years later to always present as wholeheartedly sincere and he really will buckle down and do some really interesting work and will show really impressive insight etc.   But with the mood and feeling fluctuation, my experience is that he will eventually move out of this new intense self reflection phase, too. Which can be fine, but he tends to swing back to old behaviors.   His emotional memory is horrific... . as time passes, it will be like this didn't really happen and he wont have the same emotional memory of it that he is experiencing right now... . but that includes the epiphanies and the healing parts, too.  You kind of have to have an emotional memory to carry what you experienced into the future with you.  I don't think he has that, because he kind of does everything like it's groundhog day.

The T has him really doing 'practice' work... . meditation rituals that follow principles and guidelines that he embraces... . and I think it's been helpful in the past but not enough to prevent what just happened, obviously.  I have no reason to believe this same kind of dynamic won't continue... . it certainly has for the 8 years I've known him.

So, it's always a very tuff call with this one.

I don't know anyone on this board except for probably Steph's husband that actually embraces therapy and healing practices the way my ex does.  However, Steph's husband was not a guy who had any issues with fidelity, that was not part of his presentation... . he was a rager and that certainly made life difficult enough... . but no other women. It wasn't his 'thing'. And he seemed to be able to take what he learns into the future with him. God, my guys memory is really messed up... .

I know how entrenched our sexuality 'style' is just as ordinary people... . I think his 'style'  will probably always be a struggle for him. He is almost 50 now.

So, If I want, I can probably keep this going at some point again in some capacity, but just know... . this pattern will continue.

Or, stop spending time with him in that way at all... . and spend the next year or two just being single again and looking for a partner that is more healthy. Or just being single and not looking, which is my usual comfort zone.

I did look just for research sake on "match" this weekend. I was NOT at all encouraged, so many profiles just have so many red flags, it feels like a huge step backward in so  many ways.  At least my ex has done some serious therapy... . geeze.  I don't know.

My ex is not a rager, he is not a drug user, he is not overtly mean, he has never been physically violent or aggressive.  We have that 'easy commraderie' that RoseTiger mentions. He has done tons of work, the r/s I have with him is much more even keel and comfortable than it ever was. He is a professional, makes good money, is fun to be around, the sex has always been natural and good, he is a normal person when he's not in a crappy mood swing. He does a lot of nice things for me. He helps me a lot with practical matters.

He is not an easy person or the most joyous person to be involved with long term; he refrains from being around my friends and family now... . he used to join in all the time, and of course, we use to live together so we use to have everyone over for TG and other holidays. But, now, probably because he feels ashamed of his behavior and wary of 'committment'... . he won't participate when folks are visiting anymore... . and that's obviously kind of a drag.  When in a bad mood he's like a black hole... . but I just don't even get involved with that anymore... . I use to just work over time to fix fix fix fix it... . not anymore.      

He will probably always struggle to not get crushes on other women or wander off the reservation. And always be a moody guy.  

On some level I just don't even feel like I have to make any decisions right now.  There is a part of me that is open to something healthier, but I don't feel like going out and 'looking' for it.  I don't know.

MaybeSo,

These seem like 2 very different subjects.

Regarding him:

Don't you think it comes down to a combination of radical acceptance and boundaries?

I mean, you set a boundary for a reason - what was that reason?  Is it still valid? 

I think you are right, he is who he is... . if you can be with him and accept him, then great. 

Regarding dating another:

I don't mean this to come across unkind - but does it really matter if there is nobody else right now?  I don't understand the cause/effect of if you break up with him then you immediately find someone else.  Help me understand how being alone because there is nobody else makes you change your boundaries with ex? 

SB, i have dealt with this for 8 years. My life is moving along here.

I'm just trying to decide if I can envision a life with someone else.

Or being alone.

I know how to be alone, it's not a problem.

But like the companionship and other features I've had with my ex. I can continue, likely, along that path, with continued acceptance of his patterns. Eyes wide open.

Or, cut off my contact with him, and move along single, with no ties that would interfer or

encumber me from perhaps dating and eventually being with someone else... . but that would take a long time.

I dont see myself doing both these things simultaneously,  it's one path or the other. I dont overlap r/s and I don't move quickly, I move at a snails pace with this stuff.

Neither has to be acted on decided right now; I'm just thinking outloud.

There IS NO urgency find another lover right now. Im not thinking "oh, i have to replace my ex

right this minute." There is no need, and I never transition quickly from one r/s to another, anyway, it takes me a long time, indeed I'm weighing my options once again because I'm 50, I've been connected to ex for 8 years now, it historically takes me forever to click with someone, and that

is part of what makes me reticent to just cut ties when some important needs do get met. Though not all. Before I met my ex, I was single for over six years after my divorce.

My boundary is not sleep with him if he's sleeping with someone else. That's not changed.

Thanks for clarifying - when you were talking about match.com and him in the same post - it seemed either/or the way I was reading it.

Why do you have that particular boundary?  Some folks do have open relationships... . is that an option for you?

I've never felt the least bit comfortable with a open relationship, and despite his straying behavior, my ex insists he is not looking for that either.

In some ways, based on my acknowledgement of HIS tendacy to stray, I have in a defacto way signed onto a sort of open r/s situation; but the relatiinship energy still resides in seeing any wandering or sexual openess as a disappointment and a defeat; a bad thing, not a good thing, it's not something either of us have yet just embraced as a lifestyle choice or preference. We both think it sucks.

why?  not because of society - but why for you does it suck?

I geuss I think on some level it's a cop out.

I know long term commitments are tuff, but I still buy into the belief that the tuff stuff has it's own rewards. And the "out" of  having a myriad of love affairs elsewhere, bypasses and dilutes the rewards of commitment.

I think it bypasses growth, too.

I'm not a huge fan of love affairs just for the sake of love affairs these days. It's that particular form of drug that my ex is addicted to in the first place. It does nothing to assist his emotional growth or stave off loneliness, it seems to make it worse.

So, I geuss my bias is that I see it as crutch or by-pass that brings no long term benefits.

I have a pretty negative bias about it. Don't mean to offend anyone who embraces this choice, i realize it may work for others.

MaybeSo, long term commitments may be tuff to maintain but if that's what you need then do what is best for you.  It is possible for you to find a man that will be faithful to you and who sparks your internal flame.  I think you already know more of the same isn't quite right for you.  I wish you happiness and am thankful for how much you have given me things to think about the last few years. 

Hi eeyore! Good to hear from you! How are you doing these days?

Hey girlfriend, don't look at match right now, you are not in the right frame of mind.  It's like your choices are, be alone the rest of your life, hook up with some horrible bad choice on match or consider continuing a r/s with someone that occasionally has no emotional memory of what you mean to him, or is pushing you away or gushing all over you.  Yeah.  Great choices.

Or you can work work through detaching again.  Painful hard work but not as bad as the last time.  Feeling no excitement over anything for a few weeks, maybe a couple of months.  Some good cries.  Anger.  :)enial.  You know the drill.  I was in such bad shape I was reading holocaust survivors memoirs thinking if they could live through that, I can live through this.

And then you start feeling a spark again.  Something makes you smile.  You start liking your friends again.  It's like a renewal, little leafs and buds start forming.  You start feeling ok, then really good.  Then you can think about playing on match for fun, not to have to marry the first guy you meet for a drink but just to get out and socialize.  When you are open to it, opportunities seem to just pop up.  You have to give it some time.

This is not something you can get over in five minutes.  I know you don't want to go through withdrawal again.  Blech. But you gotta do it.    

Yea, I've done the withdrawal thing, and it was hard, probably the hardest thing I've ever done.

But, despite the disappointment, like, I'll never be a big fan of this behavior, I don't feel that upset.

In fact, I don't feel euphoric when things are good with him, or devastated when it goes awry. When things are good, it's just, you know,  normal good.

I like doing other things with my friends anyway... . I see them a lot. We have fun. My life is not all about him, hasn't been for over a year.

Im not like in la-la land with this guy anymore. Practically, some really important needs get

attended to when he's around on weekends, and he's good company, but if i stop seeing him, I

will not be anywhere near the painful withdrawal I've been through in the past.  I really do not feel addicted to him that way

anymore at all.

I take my lack of addiction to him, and not feeling devastated about his comings and goings, as a good sign.

I do, too.  |iiii  It's the lonely night, something bad happened that day or something major broke... . that's the danger time.

This is like giving up smoking!  The water heater broke and is spraying water all over, the bills are crazy, I'm about to lose my job, I got in a fender bender, I'm smoking a cig.  I don't care.  That sort of thing.

I found a service, they had a flier in the mail.  Their motto is they will do anything you need.  I had them pull up a dead tree and replant a new one.  Yay.  I got triple A, if I ever have car trouble, that's who I call.  Do you have a back up list for stuff like that?

You are cracking me up!  I  have a handyman, I geuss I just need a cabana- boy!   

Or Fabio.    Listen, you know that as you get healthier, the less satisfying the r/s lite will be.  We settle like water to our own level.  That's why his shenanigans aren't tearing you apart anymore.  You got healthier and you see his illness more clearly.  But you settled into being ok with less.  It takes less effort and risk to have r/s lite versus r/s none.  But when you are in r/s lite you are giving up the possibiliity of r/s deeply satisfying. 

For what it's worth, I am finding myself in a similar place, valuing who my ex is, exactly as he is, & wondering if that isn't more than I'm going to have in a more conventional r/s with someone else. For me, I think, no sex unless I can come to terms with having him disappear after, and I am not there yet. But I get more out of this r/s than I can imagine with so many of the non-BPD men I know who are possible dates or even partners.

Maybeso, I've got a book recommendation for you. Right now I'm reading "The Ethical Slut" which is subtitled as a practical guide to polyamory and open relationships. I'm reading it because I am in an open relationship and trying to figure out what things will be working for me.

You have very clearly stated that you aren't interested in a open relationship for yourself (or your r/s partner), and I do respect that; I do not suggest this with any agenda of convincing you otherwise. If you pick the book up, feel free to skip over bits or read much in this book about open relationships as an academic exercise. I've also found the book has good relationship tools, ones that work well whether you have more people in your r/s or not.

The part that makes me think of you is that in exploring relationships that are more than two people, the authors are forced to look outside of the culturally normal model for what a relationship is. I am finding a wonderful sense of freedom and opportunity in reading about the many possibilities for satisfying relationships that look different from a happily-ever-after marriage with 2.3 children, a dog, and a house in the suburbs where the two-car garage is full of enough crap that neither car is parked there.

You have clearly accepted that that sort of relationship is not possible for your ex, and not what you want today either. Is this a good time for you to explore what other models of a relationship would suit you? There could well be some that you've never thought of.

See?  Easy as pie.

How are you?

Ex

Hi Ex,

This is too hard on me to chat with you, still have feelings for you!  Which can’t go anywhere.  So frustrating.

Take good care,  big hug!

Rose Tiger


I'm sorry!  I did not mean to be hard on you.  Take care!

Hugs,

Ex

And there you go, a tragic, yet strangely uneventful ending.  :shrug

Okay so that has to be one of the all time great titles ever! I will check it out, I am always open to learning about how others are doing things.

Maybe when I learn more about it I could see a possible alternative then I've not yet considered.

One of the things that I always wonder about, and have a bias about ... . is that, I'm uncertain if the complexities of an open relationship would really work with a pw a PD or a person who is addicted?

Sex isn't really the issue with my ex, as I see it.

It's his addiction to doing the idealization/devaluation thing, and all that goes with it... . it just happens to involve either sex or romance, but it's the feeling that he has finally met 'the one' as compared to all the other r/s that have let him down... . that he is addicted to, it's the peak experience of a fantasy r/s.

If we have an open relationship and he's still doing that stuff... . I don't see how does that solves anything?

I know one woman who practiced palamory with her husband; they were friends with the people they had extra martital relations with.  There was a lot of transparency. There we certain rules and guidelines they followed.  People weren't cultivating secrecy, drama, type scenarios. They were respectful of all involved.

If my EX can't establish a heated connection by using the rules he usually plays by... . which is that everyone is kind of sort of in the dark, there are secrets, the new woman is idealized and seen as a rescuer while the old woman is devalued and seen as the persecutor,  the new woman plays the role of rescuing him from the old woman and  is made to feel super special and put on a pedestal (for a short time anyway) so that they can have a peak experience together (I've never felt this way before, you understand me like NO other, my gf is so mean to me or isn't this enough or that enough)... . and their connection is forged through the naughtiness of having sex or romance when they really ought not to at the expense of someone else (because there's the shadow of someone else still in the picture)... . if all that drama, intrigue and  naughtiness is done away with... .

Then why would he want to have an open relationship at all?  If it's just  that we are all friends and everyone is transparent and respectful... .

Where's the fun in that?  

We have just eliminated all the key things about his 'straying' that make it fun for him in the first place and feed his addiction (in my humble opinion).

I suspect if we ever DID try to have an open relationship with others... . he would eventually cheat on ALL OF US... . because that's were the juice is!

Oh, and while he does stray... . he would NOT enjoy one bit if I STRAYED.  In his world, he does this straying thing... . and I remain faithful. If I'm going out and finding a lover too... . oh boy... . I don't think he would like that one little bit. That's probably one of the main reasons why when I tell him he probably should find a woman who wants an open r/s with him... . he always balks and says no way.

This thread just keeps getting more interesting. I probably disconnected with my husband about twenty years before the marriage ended. That means he had fifteen years to yank my chain, make me cry and scurry around to do his bidding. I couldn't do that any longer but for whatever reason didn't want to leave the marriage. So I disconnected. Just like you, no great joy, no great sorrow. Just doing life. Me doing mine with my hobbies and friends, he doing his with his other women (unknown to me except one instance). There was no being together, there was no communication, it was at the most just helping each other with the tasks of daily living. ( yes, I have a handyman now too! ). So when the last crisis occurred there was nothing holding us together, I made him leave.

Now this is where my life began to be returned to me in bits and pieces. Reading books and articles, posting here. I found I had hidden my emotions, locked them safely away from him but also locked them away from myself. I am beginning to find them and it is wonderful, thrilling, overwhelming and frightening and I wouldn't give up a minute of it at this point. This is me who was lost.

Because I really connect with your story I wondered if this is where you are at now too.

His stuff is who he is - you have said that yourself, his coping mechanism that works for him.

Isn't the purpose to redefine so you can have the relationship in a way that works for you both?

This is kinda radical acceptance of the situation, right?

.

I often feel this way, too. At other times, certainly right at the apex of a crappy event with my ex... . all I am thinking is... . gosh, get the hell away from this guy, he's such a loser... . move on... . you can find someone so much better... . this is a blessing... . say bye bye for good and be free... . free... . free!

Then after a day or two... . it's like.  Hmmm.  He DOES offer a lot of things that I really do appreciate and enjoy. And, I know him, the good the bad and the ugly. At least I know him.

I'm 50. I was married for over six years. I've dated. In my 50 years... . I've not had some of the good things with "non" men, that I've experienced with my ex. Conversely, the 'non' men I've been with have NOT been nearly as much work nor as challenging, though I can't say I was content... . I obviously got a divorce from my husband, so that was not working for me, either. He is far from BPD and he certainly can commit.  But I'm not WITH him. I have managed to manifest something quite different in my life for the last 8 years.  

So, this is what I need to really figure out once an for all.

Why do I feel I value this r/s?

Is it because I am damaged from my very similar come and go r/s with my father, so much so that my ability to really gauge what is good is way way off?

Am I just jaded?

Is it just my own self fulfilling prophesy, I believe the next r/s won't offer anything better, so... . I create what I believe.

Is it because I have my own attachment issues and can only handle or feel comfortable with a person who has similar attachment issues?

Is it because I have become numb to behaviors over the years that I use to not find acceptable (like what Cumulus is wondering about in her post)

Is it because I've really grown and let go of childhood fantasies and I just see things more realistic in general today and that's a good thing?

Is it because my ex is so manipulative that he still gets to me with all his repeated epiphanies and work in therapy?

Is it because his work in therapy truly is compelling and while he's certainly damaged, so is everyone on some level, and at least he's got a lot of really good qualities to offer AND he's in therapy.

Is it smart to know and accept that just finding (eventually) another man doesn't mean THAT r/s won't have problems, too... . maybe without nearly as many of the things I like that my ex offers?

Is it even ethical to keep seeing a man who I know has a desperate fear of being alone and THAT's what keeps him always coming back and staying tied to me?

These are really hard questions that I think about a lot, and I honestly don't have the answers to them!  I hope someday soon, I will, but I just don't right now. I just don't know.  

Quote from: MaybeSo on Today at 03:02:31 PM


I guess what I'm saying is... . I think he's too emotionally immature to be in an open r/s.  I think he'd behave poorly and muck it all up.  I think his boundaries would be messy... . I think he wouldn't hold agreements, I think he would create drama and instigate.   Does that make since?  It's hard enough to cope with that when it's just me and him... . add more people who are suppose to be intimates... . and I see a Cluster F  of gymormous poportions.  :)o you know what I mean?  Again, I may be wrong... . but I think you have to be pretty grown -up and mature to handle an open r/s.

I dunno - your situation and the open situation is all theory for me.

It sounds like you are doing a version of this already though if we get really honest... . I mean you and he get close, intimate - he finds another, ends with you - goes with her until done, then comes back to you.

The only difference with open seems to be no shame for him with it... . and you don't have to go through the mental gymnastics of do I end it, wait, etc... . it accepts the situation as it is.  This way you can be open to date too.

Everyone settles to some degree - if this is what you want, why not just own it and accept it since it is what you are doing anyways?  As far as the drama, you are an expert in not getting triangulated and BPD communication, I don't see how it will be much different really.

I guess the way you describe it here... . sort of the defacto of what has been going on, anyway... . could work if I were willing to sign on to it... . with just more acceptance... . no fooling ourselves that this time he's trying to be a good boy and not stray.  Just total acceptance that he has his moments that involve others and then he is disappointed and comes back.  I suppose that could work in theory.

If it meant a complicated relationship that involved transparency with others... . which I think some couples get involved in... . where lets say two couples are all friends and they are lovers and live together etc., while respecting their primary marriage vows ... . I think that would be WAY WAY WAY too complicated for us. He would eventually be trying to convince the other spouse that what they have is super special and they should run away together and have a peak experience on their own.   LOL  

but of course - that is just par for the course! lol

Maybeso, I really was recommending the book from the perspective of the other things it offered :) Glad you like the title at least!

I believe your skepticism about how a pwBPD would handle an open r/s is justified--When you add more people to a r/s, it requires more and better communications, and when somebody in it starts throwing tantrums, it does become a "Cluster F of gynormous proportions" much faster than a r/s with only two people   I believe I said as much somewhere in a thread on the dating board about open r/s

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=181763.0

I'd also agree that YOUR ex doesn't sound like he would be capable or interested in the sort of r/s you describe your friend having, with openness, transparency, and friendship all around. Your description of him sounds like somebody who could strive for serial monogamy, and is struggling to avoid cheating, at least by a technicality.

Perhaps some other options will appeal to you when you read the Ethical Slut.


All of those questions you listed fit the category of "What is wrong with my choice to value this r/s?"

Earlier in this thread you mentioned things you do value in this r/s.

The bad parts are pretty clear too, especially given that he's once again decided to chase after a new lover for a while.

Trying to weigh the two against each other ... . and also deciding what to do when the balance changes... . it sounds like sex isn't on the "good" side of the balance anymore... . those jobs are tougher.

My question for you: Does your heart disagree with your mind about which way the balance is tipping?

 I've been trying to figure out similar things in my r/s with my ?lover?; Our status has been ambiguous for months, and I value some things in the r/s, but don't like some of the limits of her emotional capacity. I am slowly preparing myself to remove the ambiguity, which may well end the r/s for me.

You are hilarious!  I am loving your post b/c this is exactly where I am.  The similarities with our guys and current situations are spooky, but comforting in that I am not alone.  You probably don't remember, but I PM'ed  you several months ago when I was getting "vibes" after he took a weekend trip with a female friend.  In my case, he confessed to a "hookup" that weekend that I could get past b/c it really was just sex.  But he also confirmed what I had said to him from the beginning of this last re-engagement period, which was that he had unfinished business with a girl he dated during our NC period.  It wasn't suprising to me and I told him I was getting off the triangle and for him to contact me when he wanted to be with me exclusively.  I am disappointed, but I know him and this is what he does.  He knows this is what he does, always searching for the "next best mommy".  He did alot of inner work after his father died and his divorce about 3 years before I met him and in the three years I have known him, he did some amazing work with his PTSD symptoms and "dad" work.  After we went NC 3/12, he started his "mom" work, but got side-tracked with a girl who was compellingly broken.  So been NC for about 2 months now and pondering the exact questions that you are.

For me, I know I can't have an open relationship.   My dude tends to have several "mommys" in rotation that give emotional support, but they are just friends.  This last go round we had detailed discussions about how I accept that he has female friends, but I am triggered and a bit edgy that he will start to triangulate based on past history.  We discussed the dangers of spending alone time with other females b/c of his tendency (and lots of other people) to make new female the rescuer to old female's persecutor.  He was in agreement and ultimately he told the truth, I stuck to my boundary and he lost my goodies.

Now that I know myself, I try to honor my boundaries and have interactions with people that are constructive, productive, and non-painful.  I try to be in the moment as much as possible.  I try not to stress about it too much.

I guess my greatest fear is growing old alone... .

So... . no one is talking about STDs, kind of playing russian roulette!

MaybeSo,

I can identify with a lot you've said on the thread. . .and it gives me a glimpse into the future if ever my ex and I got into contact again - which may not be totally off the cards, mainly because his good side is great and something I have missed very much since we've been apart.

I'm nearly 49, my ex is nearly 55 now. . .we sound pretty much like cut-outs of yourself and your SO.  I haven't been involved with anybody since the break-up and like you I don't easily find men I'm attracted to.  I joined a dating site for about 2 months - that was enough for me    My ex seeks other women for much the same reasons I believe - the thrill, chase, to self-soothe and boost his ego.  He hasn't done the intense work on himself with any therapy so its highly unlikely this is never going to change.

I understand the sadness your latest 'issue' must have caused and I know there was a paper-thin line with the truth. . .but he did do it - he must be cognizant of your boundary and will know you will enforce it. . .and by the seem of it, it does matter to him.   I can't see my ex having anywhere near that amount of honesty, he couldn't stand the shame.  

If you can manage the times where he is 'breaking away' but he is at least not doing it behind your back perhaps with all you value about the r/s it can be worthwhile. . .until maybe someday someone does come across your path that you are interested in yourself. . .it is not set in stone that this is how it will be forever. . .live it for now  

Oh, PS - I too think the open r/s would be a disaster. . .I think that's the hypocrisy in them you just have to radically accept

Rose Tiger,

I have definitely thought about STD's this go round b/c he has actually admitted to sex with two other women (hookup and girl he formally dated during last NC period) besides me while we were sexual.

I will always hold to my boundary that I will exit if he is having sex with or wants to have sex with someone else.  Because he decided to have sex, then tell me, I will assume that is his MO for the future if we are ever sexual again.  I think he will be honest with me, but probably after he has done it.  Therefore, I will be asking him to wear a condom in the future (if there is a future).

Sm15000,

Thanks for you post, Your take on it is is where I am at right now. Live my life, stay open, if there are aspects to maintaining contact with my ex that at worthwhile, fine, within safe limits (I take distance if he's with another)... . meanwhile I may meet someone great in an organic manner sometime down the road.

As for STDs, yea... . that is one of the main reason for the agreement of NO unknown overlapping sexual activity.

I'm not seeing him right now and certainly no more sex for the foreseeable future and not without a clean bill of health and normal precautions.

Ex and I did the dating thing with sleepovers for a year or so.  It got comfortable settling for a 5% husband.  My T is what got me motivated.  Having a 5% husband with no stability.  It's like being the mistress.  It was hard to lose that last 5% and I kept thinking he would balk and want me back 100%, to a real marriage.  Uh uh.  That is the trigger that hurts so bad, the abandonment he did/does to me.  The last email I sent, I still have feelings, this is difficult, I'm frustrated, he didn't answer back, I have feelings too.  Ouch.  He doesn't have feelings towards me.  While he was out working in that fire, I was so worried about him.  He never feels that way towards me.

One of his last emails he said that his older daughter is now living with her boyfriend.  He said, although I shouldn't, I still pay for her groceries because it's the only control I have with her.

That keeps ruminating with me.  Why does he feel the need to control his older daughter?  Why not put money in a bank account for her and give her a debit card.  Because that represents 'love' and 'relationship' with her.  That's how he controlled me during the marriage was money.  When they lived here, older daughter would bring receipts to him and he would reimburse her, that was the relationship.  That's what his rich doctor dad did to his mother.  There is no 'love' only you will do as I say or you don't 'get'.  It takes stepping away to see all this.  How huge a hold this was for me with him, the enticement of financial security.

It's easy to settle for 5% versus 0%.  But this is crumbs.  You deserve so much more and something so much better than this.  All of you that have posted do, too.

Thank you for sharing that RT.

It is weird that these days, I don't see those behaviors as "no love, just control" I  see it as a person that got control all mixed up with basic human love and dependency needs.  :)oesn't make it right for us,  and we don't have to tolerate it, true. But I don't see it as not having any love. Most of us love in broken ways, in some manner. I agree, I wouldn't want to feel financially dependent upon a person who has mixed up love and control like that... . but I still think there is some love there.

I always think about the phrase " I deserve more ".

There is a song I like by Dydo (?) I think... . she sings

"if my life is for rent, and I don't learn to buy... . I deserve nothing more than I get, cause nothing

I have is truly mine"

I like the pull to ownership in those lyrics.

When I look around at whatever I have or don't have, i see that this iswhat I have created, this

is what I have manifested both the good and the bad.

The word "deserve" is so easy to say... . I deserve xyz

Do I?

Or do we create our own realities for our own, usually very complex,  reasons?

You don't have to make a decision now. This doesn't need to be an urgent matter. Maybe "healthier" doesn't have to include a r/s.

I'm sorry I didn't have time to thoroughly read all posts, but why do you still feel you need ex in your life?

That is a great article, FreeOne.  Thanks for sharing.

I'm personally suspicious of the word "deserve." It isn't an active word. It smells of entitlement, and of hoping that others will provide what you "deserve" or that you "deserve" a tasty desert, but aren't including how it will appear on your hips or gut later.

Saying "I am worth more than X" sounds better to me than "I deserve Y"

I think that what you choose or what you create is a lot more important than what you deserve!

Tomato toematoe.   lol  Y'all know what I meant.  Your inner child wants more.  Takes some stretching.  Takes some moving out of a comfort zone.  Maturity is marked by self denial of short term gratification and self control.  

I dunno, guys. Maybe this is highly situational and due to the fact that I'm momentarily in a good place with my ex. But I am not sure the formulaic "this person hurt me so I must dispense with them" rule is always necessary. I took nonGF's excellent advice on another thread & read a Tara Brach article on radical acceptance last night. In the context of a r/s with another human being, I'm not sure that radical acceptance means "accept that this other person inevitably hurts me."  I think it may be more "accept that this other person is himself/herself & will likely act similarly to how she/he has previously acted. Now. Is that something I want without introducing a malignant, & somewhat controlling, hope of transformation to make him/her more convenient for me? Because if so, I can adjust my expectations to match what this person can give. Hurt comes from needing or expecting things to be other than as they are."

MaybeSo, you've written to me before about how, if someone repeatedly hits you, as if they have a physical Tourette's-like impulse, it's your responsibility to protect yourself from being hit, & to recognize that this is a person who hits. But you've pointed put that this can be accomplished in various ways -- sure, you can leave the scene & never see the person again.  But you can also just step out of reach of their hitting, & stick around.  I think this is wise, dialectical :), complex thinking.

It is interesting, challenging & scary to acknowledge that there can be much of value in these relationships & still the possibility, even probability, of growth for both people.   I don't see it as necessary to shut that door in order to prevent you from being hit.  Seems like this could be more a question of fine-tuning what you expect & fully absorbing your knowledge of what he does.  Sounds like this time you were wondering at some level if your new approach (giving him complete freedom, not trying to control or guide his actions) might shift his behavior.  Now you know that even that isn't necessarily going to happen. I don't think that means the end of the road. It's just more data about what to expect in the r/s.

P&C ,

Totally agree.

I do think there are a variety of ways to radically accept and with that reality, take care of yourself.

I do think I have done that this last 9 months by having this time with ex; I really exercised my self-care, self-focus muscles while accepting who he is. It would be disingenuous to imply I haven't got a lot out of this, on many levels.

I do wonder, though, if I've plumbed about as much as I can from this.

It is unclear if there is more to learn/gain from continuing with this anymore. To be clear I'm not

seeing him right now, anyway. But, he will likely want to resume some kind of connection in due

time, even if only friendship (no physical intimacy).

It remains to be seen if that is a good idea for me or not.

As mentioned, I got quite the mea culpa from him last Sunday. With a firm resolution that his

goal is a relationship with himself as his number one priority; and to quit looking for me or any

woman to do that for him. I replied with some supportive words.

Haven't heard a peep from him since.

He doesn't do "alone" well. It's the whole crux of his issue.

It's very difficult for me to believe he is forging ahead alone. I assume he is staying in therapy,

but likely is spending all his free time with new love interest. Which to me, means he is not really

working on his stated goals at all, it's just more of the same old spin.

If this is the case, I don't think there's much more to plumb here. I use to have a big charge

around this pattern... . today it is just annoying and inconvenient... . and his pattern is boring to me.

If he is hanging out with this woman, he is just an alcoholic, purporting to be in AA, but hanging

out at the bar evenings and weekends. Boring.

I'm not sure there's anything very deep or growthful of interest going on, if that's what's

happening here.

I need something more growthful than this to keep my chips in the game.

If he's plowing through some alone time, I give him credit... . THAT would be very difficult for him and would be growthful... . but  I suspect that's not the case.

Hey Rose Tiger - This is directly from Road Less Traveled by Scott Peck - a whole section on delaying gratification as a sign of emotional maturity and how to teach this to children and how children learn this from watching.

MaybeSo--totally get that. Including the irony that he could write you about how he knows he needs to forge on alone, yet default to a (momentarily)  easy companionship. When I told my ex we should wait to try again as sexual/romantic partners until he gained some insight into why a momentary bad feeling caused him to end the r/s, & he agreed he should try to learn to be alone ... . it really sucked when he immediately turned to another woman rather than walk that much harder alone path.

I hear you that growth on his part may be necessary for this not to stagnate & become boring. The good news is -- it will probably become clear if he is up for that, or not, without you having to do anything.

Big fan of Scott Pecks.

I feel pretty adept at delayed gratification; I have a lot of things in my life that required a lot of delayed gratification.

In fact, my capacity to delay gratification works against me, sometimes.

I suspect I may be able to delay gratification to an extent that isn't always in my best interest.

"I suspect I may be able to delay gratification to an extent that isn't always in my best interest."

How so?  I think maybe I did this in a way with unsafe people, waiting patiently for a return to better treatment. 

I think as we get healthier, we want to surround ourselves with healthier people.  I have a friend since school days, she comes to town once a year to visit her parents.  We usually do lunch or something.  For some reason, I didn't want to see her but felt obligated.  After our visit, I just felt this cloud over me, something about her just doesn't jive with me anymore.  I can't put my finger on it but I no longer enjoy being around her.  Same with work, people are used to treating me as a doormat, something in me can't abide with it anymore and I've started getting assertive.  The Ex won't work on his stuff, his motto is, yes I am broken but nobodies perfect.  So the healthier I get, the more I don't want to reconcile with him or be around him.  He is the road more travelled.

I read something last night, been ruiminating on it.  :)  It was something about these experiences with a BPD partner, opens us to be more loving, that it increases our capacity to love others.  I know that is a total tangent, thinking about do I love people more now and thinking well, some people I love less, the users, the abandoners, the abusers.  But others, the kinder ones, like my friend that adores dogs like I do, and my daughter, the coworker at work that I've been chatting with, feeling lots of love towards them.  Oh and I talked to a nice guy in the hot tub at the Y yesterday, kind of bold for Rose Tiger.  I feel lots of compassion for the posters on this site.  I do feel that codependent still in me though because I still need to listen more and talk less.

RT,

Yes, i sometimes delay gratification (meeting my needs) in relationships especially with men, as I have years of practice with my father doing this same thing.

Most of the people I hang out with, I enjoy... . though they are imperfect.

I tend to have a few long term friends, and new ones are added on slowly, over time. Relationships of any importance take me time to cultivate, both friendships and romantic.

If it's not feeling right... . I tend not to cultivate it. I'm pretty cautious / picky / careful / anxious when it comes to people connections.

I grew up around adults that had a lot of lovely qualities and gifts, but were also very complex

people with complex issues.  No drugs/alcohol ... . At least not serious or long term (i think dad and step monster drank too much) but issues. When I was about 10 I saw my first Woody Allen

movie and totally identified with it; anxious, overlyanalytical, neurotics with interesting, somewhat self absorbed lives and interesting gifts to offer the world, too.  It's what my family is like,  it's

the kind of friends I like, it's clearly the kind of man I love, too.

Hmmm.

Just found this thread and... . wow! So much of it resonates with me. Really interesting input all around and I think it's helping me to clarify some things I've been mulling over as well.

MaybeSo - I'll second Grey Kitty's recommendation to read The Ethical Slut. I actually was fairly critical of some aspects of the book, but I do think it offers some insight into possibilities for 'open' relationships. It's an interesting read. Certainly all open r/s are not the same and they do not all involve both parties being non-monogamous, nor do they necessarily have all kinds of complex rules. Just like people, relationships come in all shapes and sizes! I've found that being 'open' actually resulted in more personal growth for my H and I - obviously your milage may vary. For me, it was much as SeekingBalance suggested earlier - a matter of radical acceptance and getting in touch with what really mattered to me and what I valued in my life (and figuring out those things was not as easy as it sounds)!

"I'm pretty cautious / picky / careful / anxious when it comes to people connections. "

These books might be helpful too... .

Safe People

www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310210844/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Boundaries in Dating

www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310200342/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

How to get a Date Worth Keeping

www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310200342/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

So, to close this chapter;

I have spoken with my ex.

He sent me some messages regarding the books he is reading and the work he is doing in T, he said that he felt ashamed, that he is sick of his b.s. pattern, that he keeps hurting people, and is throwing himself into attacking this problem like he has never done before.

I called him on the phone, though, and asked why he was sending ME these updates and what his intentions are. eg.,( to my way of thinking... . if he is still seeing the other woman while still sending me updates about his progress with hugs and kisses XXXOO... . he is still overlapping and doing the exact same b.s. he ALWAYS does.)

He said he thinks he needs to learn to be alone and throw himself 100% into tackling his commitment issues.

I asked directly if he was still seeing 'the other woman'.

His answer was 'yes and no'.  (this is more b.s.)

I said this 'non answer' tells me everything I need to know... . and don't call me or bother me anymore until you are ready to make a commitment TO SOMETHING!

He said he understood, and was giving all of this a lot of serious thought, about what we could do to make this work going forward etc., and he knows if he commits to me this time, it's a done deal... .

He is an addict, thinking about getting better, while still using... . and me being involved in any manner right now,  is part of his using.  So I'm not going to be a part of it anymore.

We ended the phone call with him thinking I was waiting for a commitment from him, and he was going to get back to me about his ideas... .

I sent him a letter the next morning that explained I am not waiting for him, I do not trust any promises or commitments he might offer me right now, anyway, he is to please stop contacting me with updates about what he is doing in therapy, to not call me to discuss any issues about any women or his 'issues'  with women or therapy as he has a therapist to do that with, and that I need to move on right now, and that means to stop all contact right now with him.

If he does contact me again it must be a long time from now and

1- only if he is truly single and has been for a long time or

2- only to update me about how he and the kids are doing, friendly stuff etc.

And I wish him all the best on his own journey.


He wrote back and agreed, that he can't trust himself right now and has no business expecting me to trust any promises or commitments he might offer, and he see's that.  He indicates he is doubling up his sessions with his DBT therapist and is going to stop seeing the other therapist (Yeah... . he might as well start by making a commitment to seeing only ONE F-ING therapist at a time... . GOD DANMIT!) ... . and that he is dedicated to fixing this flaw in himself and learning to be at peace with himself.

So, we are now NC.

That is the end of this chapter and this experiment of trying to be just friends (or something) with my ex.

MaybeSo, kudos to you for standing up for what you believe in |iiii



Not to make light of a serious situation... . this made me chuckle though.

You had just said that he is to please stop contacting you with updates about what he's doing in therapy.  He got around it by contacting and updating you about what he's going to do about therapy and what he will be working on.

Sometimes, it really is all about them... .   Ugh.

MaybeSo, I am proud of you.  I think this will be so good for YOU.  Surround yourself with healthy.   

Thank you eeyore, this feels more like me than moving into an open r/s or continuing our non commitment r/s. Honestly, if he were faithful, what we were doing would have been fine for me; and I can see how an open r/s can work for some situations; I just don't think it work for us or would be productive for us due to the nature of our issues. 



Always... . this is a constant with me and men (starting with  my father who would go on and on and on about himself and still does)... . it has been interesting in the last year in that I will stop his long winded monologues about HIS issues and HIS needs and HIS struggles and cut it short to insert my own needs and wishes. This is a big deal for me, as it does not come natural, but I can see that I am really getting much better at it now.   In this case, my wishes and needs were pretty simple: I need to be in a r/s with a person who can be faithful to me.

If you know what you need then there is nothing wrong with saying your truth.   I'm rooting for you to be strong and when the time is right to be in a healthy relationship.  I suspect a new thread needs to be started as they usually start locking the threads. 

About the all about them comment... . I'm currently in the dog house because I pointed it out.  After hearing him talk about him I said, "yes I heard what you said, you, you,  you. "  All I can say is that did not go over well.  I clearly wasn't validating. 

Just want to give you two more  |iiii  as you sound like you are living your values here!

Your comment how this would be turning into an open r/s... . I definitely see your point. There are good and bad things about open relationships, but one thing I'm *sure* an open r/s won't do is fix the problems that already exist in a closed r/s. With your ex is falling down on the job of having one r/s at a time, he would only do worse if more people are added to the mix!

 This is still a tough choice for you.

Is that is the pattern, it's all about his angst and not one bit of concern for you, only looking for your support and feedback over his issues?  Is that the old 'comfortable' pattern?

MaybeSo,  .

I am certain this man will be back telling you he has met all of these conditions for future intimacy with you.

I don't know if that is good or bad, or if you find it comforting or troubling, to know that will happen.  Because of course the challenge then is, can you possibly believe it, and do you want to open yourself to disappointment if he cannot make good on such aspirations.

He clearly values you to the best of his ability and skills.  It's so unfortunate that those seem so inadequate to the task of cherishing someone as wonderful as you in a way that works for you.

I've learned so much from your story & continue to.  I hope the next little while brings unexpected rewards to you of whatever sort -- I think this would be a mighty good time for some rewards.

I've no idea if this was the case here or not, just bringing it up for consideration (I know it's the case for me often, and so I'll put it in terms of myself).

There are times when I am able to articulate my values and boundaries, as you have done here with your ex, then I pull the rug out from under myself with self doubt, wondering if I'm being too demanding, that I'm being unfair cornering someone with "demands" that they are unable to fulfill. So I toss out my own boundaries, revise them down lower and lower until the other person can conform (in other words, I conform to them).

RT,

It is MY pattern to engage with men who are self absorbed and providing a nurturing experience of listening to their needs ad nauseum... . it is my pattern to do this, finding it uncomfortable to speak up and balance it by inserting MY needs. That's my problem, not his.  This is my pattern, and my responsibility to change. Getting angry about it complaining about It doesn't change MY pattern.  Speaking up for myself and inserting my needs even if it feels akward or makes me anxious,  is changing my patterns. Not being his audience when he is doing this, changes my pattern.

I have no doubt he cares about me within the parameters of his abilities.  His verbal diarrhea and incessant navel-gazing is a maladaptive coping skill, a pattern he runs regardless. 

He has his patterns, I have mine. I think we are both caring people and care about eachother.

We just have issues.

DA, I think if I were to accommodate his seeing other people, while getting me too,  I'd be heading down that path. I've never wanted to have an open relationship; so there is no reason for me to push myself

to accommodate that. He is free to have an open relationship with someone else, but it won't be me.

this is important cause I've felt that way in the past when expressing my needs,... but again... . people have the freedom and responsibility to make their own choices, so no matter what your needs are... . or how they differ from someone elses... . by expressing them, and taking care of your own needs... . you are never cornering someone with your demands.  They can always make their own choices so that their needs are better accommodated, too.


Buddist saying:

In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you.”

...

That's the insight part, at first we sooth each other's core wounds, then we trigger them.  We play this over and over with our ex's or possibly new partners.  Until we come to grips with working on not re-creating these patterns, we can't get free of them.  Definition of insanity dealy.

I know you care lots about him.

He, and my ex, pull us back into the old pattern.  Like some unspoken agreement to accepting how FOO molded us as kids.  Then boundaries shake things up, not necessarily being unaccepting of their shortfalls that they can't help, but us, reacting differently, creating new patterns.

I so agree.

Exactly, he'd be in an open relationship but your heart would be committed to him.  So he would be the ONLY one in an open relationship.  Which has never been what YOU wanted. 

MaybeSo,

A lot of your posts in this thread resonate with me.  I grew up around 'complex adults' with 'complex issues' as well, and I also like Woody Allen movies.  Haha!

I mainly wanted to say that I respect your courage to set some boundaries with him, and I understand how hard it is to do that.  I still think of contacting my ex at times and it's been nearly 7 months.  She had a tremendous impact on me.

I think you're doing great.  Take care.

Wow, having gone through similar experiences with me ex,  I'm so sorry to hear this.

The crushes/romantic longings they indulge in for others ... .   just sucks.

Yup. Boundaries.