BPDFamily.com

"Children of borderlines learn to sacrifice their true selves because survival requires that they meet their mother's emotional needs . . Autonomy, the freedom of self-direction and self-expression is impossible for the borderline's child. Because the borderline mother views separation as betrayal and punishes self-assertion, the child develops a false self.  The true self is buried alive"

"Children of borderlines cannot become healthy, autonomous adults unless they find a way of understanding their experience.  . . Like children who are born deaf and blind, children of borderlines have no way of organizing their emotional life.  They do not realize they are different, that other children are born into a world of sound and light.  The lack of consistency in their emotional world creates a sense of meaninglessness, as if life itself is nonsense."

Christine Ann Lawson, PhD, Understanding the Borderline Mother from the chapter titled "Make Believe Children"


Children look to their parents to understand the world around them and to learn who they are.   It is through watching our parents, being nurtured and loved, being given permission to explore the world that we come to learn who we are.   Through this process we learn how to understand and use our emotions in healthy ways, we learn how to relate to other people, we learn to use our "voice in the world" which is our ability to express our true selves.   But in growing up with a Borderline Parent, this whole process gets short-circuited.  We don't always know what it is we are feeling.  We don't feel validated in the world.   Our dysfunctional parents can't hold the mirror for us so that we can see ourselves and in doing so come to know ourselves.    We often suffer from our own emotional roller coasters because growing with the chaos of a BPD is what we learned was "normal."   We are often afraid to speak our own truth with our own voices, or even sometimes know what our own truth is because we never learned.  

Then as adults we crave that sense of validation that we never had as children.  We will often look to our parents to give us that validation we never had, but the Borderline Parent is not capable of such skills and so we replay the hurt we experienced as children, sometimes over and over again.

Here is a quote from our site director Skip from the workshop on mirroring:  "The theory of mirroring  was developed by Heinz Kohut, MD.  Kohut said that children need to have their conversations and accomplishments acknowledged, accepted and praised by others.  Kohut felt that it is important for a child's legitimate feelings of be mirrored by its parents. The parent's mirroring gets internalized in time by the child, so as the child gets older they can provide their own mirroring, their own sense of self-appreciation.  Children who do not get enough mirroring are considered by many psychologists to be at risk of developing a narcissistic personality later in life.

The basis of healthy self-esteem is that one's natural self, with all its emotions, with its successes and failures, is acceptable and loveable. If the child does not feel their parents love them for themselves, apart from accomplishments, they will develop what object relations theorists call the "false self," - the self that is fabricated in order to get the approval of his parents, based on the ability to achieve good grades, a good job, a good mate, etc."

The purpose of this workshop is to explore ways we can reclaim those parts of us that were lost through the agency of our dysfunctional childhoods.   It is to explore ways we can mirror ourselves, learn who our "true selves" are as well as how we can find the validation that we won't find in the words and deeds of our parents.

It is fundamentally about our healing journey.   How can we learn to feel "lovable"  "worthy"  "special" when our parents never gave us that message?

To get the discussion started I would ask each of you:  When did you begin to understand your own experience from YOUR point of view (not from your BPD parent or from any enmeshed relatives)?

6 years ago when I got away from my uBPDparents and totally enmeshed family. My kids were even totally enmeshed by that point (teenagers). I had to decide that I was going to work at healing and getting well whether anyone cared if I did, paid attention to it, or supported me. Up until this year, I was still so afraid to tell others of what REALLY happened to me with my uBPDparents (they kidnapped me, verbally/physically/sexually abused me for over a decade). So much comprehending to do, so much relearning, so much getting rid of flea encrusted harmful ways of dealing with life that I learned in order to survive.

Thanks for starting this thread.  |iiii

I only came to that realisation now in my thirties. Until now, I'd been trying to be the person I thought my mother would be pleased with / stop criticising. Now that I've realised nothing will give me the reaction I've craved and I'm over the initial hurt of that realisation, things are getting easier. I'm beginning to like myself and respect and trust my own judgement, something I had a really hard time doing before because her criticism (years and years of it) was always in my mind. I have a wonderful psychotherapist who has helped me on this journey. I am also lucky to have a loving, sane father, who has supported me to the best of his ability and left me less vulnerable to the craziness.

S

I think I began noticing my family wasn't normal when I started going to church 6yrs ago. As I began interacting with others, I noticed that the other families weren't like mine. Also that people didn't expect me to be perfect and that I could have people that were there for me, not me there for others... .

In college, because I did get to stay in dorms, I finally got the first inkling of what it was like to have my own life and make my own decisions, although the large majority of college was still caving to my uBPDM and enNdad and their wishes, and still making many choices because I could hear their voices in my head and did all the things I "should" do. There was one whirlwind school trip with two guys that was very freeing, as I actually went to a bar with them and did a couple of (not-so) crazy things, but things I'd never done before, and I got to see the world in a way not tinted by my parents' views. I actually had a breakdown in college, entirely convinced that I was at fault, everything was me.

It wasn't until I got my T about five years ago that I finally got a clue that it WASN'T me, that I had a life of my own and deserved to have it. Took years to really get it and to decide things on my own and to finally tell them NO. And now I'm NC, have been for a year and a half, and don't miss them at all.

I think in college I started to see a lot of life from my own perspective and to act in my own self-interest intellectually and career-wise.  And it really helped that at one point in college I did a study-abroad program where they did team-building exercises, and as cheesy as these are in many ways, I realized for the first time that people play roles in groups, and that everyone comes to social interactions with certain goals and priorities, certain strengths and weaknesses.  That was enormously helpful for building solid friendships.  And then getting married was in some ways the most important step in helping me realize that I could be loved for who I was, not for what I offered, and to see a model of how other people behave in intimate relationships, that is often more healthy than the model I grew up with. 

I still struggle with hearing my own voice, and especially when it comes to my mom, I do tend to fall into acting more in response to what I think she would want out of a situation than what I want.  That's one reason I've cut back contact so dramatically - at least for right now, being my own advocate when relating with her is extremely challenging for me and not something I'm ready for.  It's something of a challenge when I'm with others as well, but it's less hard, because I'm only fighting the demons in my head, not the external source of them!

I was thoroughly brainwashed and obedient so it was only about 2 years ago(I was 58) when I first noticed that my mother was not acknowledging me or my issues. It was when I couldn't do everything my mom wanted because of my health issues but she expected it anyway.  She couldn't see my difficulty or seemed unconcerned or uncaring of the physical pain I was having while at the same time wanting some silly, little, unnecessary want from me or for me to serve her.

I had also done a lot of work on ridding myself of my addictions and I was learning healthier coping skills so I began questioning why but still thought it must be me or she didn't love me.  I had no idea it was dealing with mental illness till it was suggested to me on another internet site for care givers that my mother could have a personality disorder, possibly narcissism. I was shocked but in a weird way felt better that I wasn't crazy.

It was really hard at first even to think those kind of thoughts, let alone write about them or talk to anyone because I felt like I was betraying my family, my mother. It took me almost another year to actually believe it so... .I'm just really coming to terms with it now. This site has given me the tools to deal with this disease and my own issues and that has helped tremendously and the biggest thing is that you all are here, and just knowing that makes me feel more powerful and not so alone.

I still have my days though that I think that I have exaggerated or I got it wrong or I really am crazy because everyone else sees my mother as a saint and such a nice person but then she doesn't treat them like she treats me either. I think for me it was the more I was forced to considered my own health, needs and wants, I was able to see that I was a separate person from the family.  At first it was good to have my health as an excuse but now more and more I'm able to see myself without the excuse. . Thanks for this thread LionDreamer even though I had a hard time getting my thoughts together on this topic, it did help to sort things out.

justhere

Thanks to everyone for being so honest on this thread. :) You all help me so much with your beautiful honesty, and God knows I need the help, I was dealt a dysfunctional hand too.

My awareness started early, in my child hood when I noticed wrong behavior in my FOO, but was way to young and vulnerable to do anything about it. i.e. dad sleeping on floor after a night of drinking ( at first sight he looked dead) , HPD older sis , punching my mom in the stomach, yep something wrong there, I was about 8y/o, I knew it was messed up, but what was I suppose to do?  My mom always extolling the virtues of other peoples kids more than her own, (all of us siblings noticed this and commented to each other about how wrong and devaluing it felt to us, so at least we were all on the same page here).

Someone  asked me when I was 25 y/o, after college, if I came from a family with alcohol abuse based on the things I was saying, I said yes  and he suggested I get therapy for this and  I proceeded to go to counseling for Adult Children of alcoholics.

All these times I was aware my family had problems. But like I said on some other thread, I did not really own the mental illness  in the FOO until about 6 months ago at the age of 49 y/o when we had some crisis in getting my eldrerly mother into an elderly living facility.

I had feelings on and off through my adult life that something was not quite right with me, but I never had the foggiest idea and just thought it was the way it was, I was not that great or something. I was naive. I acted childish because my family groomed me to be that way since I was the youngest sibling.  Excuse after excuse for my problems and my behavior, because I did not have the knowlegde of BPD.

Hi LD,

I believe this started when I entered puberty.   But it was on an intellectual level only.  I KNEW my perception of reality was quite different from mother but didn't believe I was correct.   Gradually over time the awareness dropped from my head to my heart... .this happened over the years of being exposed to healthier families, therapists, 12 step groups, etc.   But it wasn't until my sister's death last fall that I am able to believe at the level of my heart, my emotions what is MY reality.   It has been like a volcanic explosion.

Thanks for the thread, LD, and to all who posted, it is so validating and interesting to read all of your experiences.    nf       xoxo

Thank you all for your willingness to look backwards and share your stories.   I am amazed at the variety of stories.   I would label what each of you has been talking about as "waking up."   Each of you has "woken up" to the truth of our BPD parents and what that has meant for our lives.   In the Survivor's Guide these are really steps 1 and 2.


Yes, survivorof2, I agree with you there is a lot of comprehending and then relearning.  How sad and yet true, that in order for us to survive as whole and healthy people, we do need to relearn so many old messages from our childhood.



Wow.  I think each and every one of us here wish we had known earlier.   I think that is why grieving is such a part of our healing process - we need to grieve what has been lost in our lives before we can move on (starting with #8 on the Survivors Guide).


As survivorof2 said, "good work."  You have expressed what it means to be mirrored by our BPD parent in such a way that we crave to please people to avoid criticism.   You have learned to see yourself in new "mirrors" now so that you can like yourself and trust your own judgment.   Thank you for sharing this example. 




I love that you learned that you don't have to be perfect to be valued and loved.  Another wonderful "mirror" in which to look at yourself.


Yes, you "mirrored" yourself through friends at college and through therapy.   And yes you deserve your own life.  Wonderful revelation! 


So your relearnt "mirror" came from social interactions as well as studying abroad.  I wonder how much physical distance plays a role in our recovery process.    Seeing other models and recognizing that's what we want for ourselves is important.   I love that you learned that you could be loved for who you are. 



Yes, justhere, these early conditionings die hard.   As survivorof2 said, there is a whole relearning process and it can be painful and hard to put into practice.   I am glad you have been able to think your independent, free spirit thoughts and now to write them down.   That is a big step.   Good job.


It's interesting telios that you were aware so early in your life that something was wrong but it wasn't until many years later that you were able to put a foundation under that wrongness.   And you have described what the Survivor's Guide, calls a "breakthrough crisis."   Knowledge is a powerful thing.


Sorry to hear about your sister newfreedom.  Like telios you describe the knowing something was wrong when you were much younger but needed a crisis and the knowledge to begin to understand.   This has been my own path as well.  I know what you mean when you talk about a volcanic explosion.   Perhaps this is why it is so hard to "wake up" to the reality - we have a life-times worth of emotions just waiting to explode outward when we open up those feelings. 

I honor the courage of each and every one of you,

LD

Many of you have shared your stories about the first question from this workshop:

When did you begin to understand your own experience from YOUR point of view (not from your BPD parent or from any enmeshed relatives)?

Any more stories or responses to this question are still welcomed.

The next step is to begin to understand what we have done since we have "woken up" to the truth of our BPDparent and its effect on our lives.   This next exploration is to look at our skills as part of how we have started to find ourselves again.   

Kimberlee Roth and Freda B. Friedman in their book Surviving the Borderline Parent have a section called "How to Bounce Back"   They say:  "Recalling a difficult past and examining how it affect your development and your life today can be painful.  Moving forward may seem overwhelming at times, but humans are amazingly resilient creatures.   It's important to give yourself credit for the strength and other qualities you possess that allowed you to survive and accomplish all that you have, thus far." 

I agree that when faced with a childhood fraught with chaos and toxicity it is especially important to evaluate and give ourselves credit for our strengths.   

They have an excellent exercise called:  Resiliency Builders where they list resilient qualities and ask us to reflect on them, how you have used them in the past and how you use them now.   They define resilience as "the ability to overcome adversity." 

The resilient qualities they list along with their explanations are:

  Adaptable (You adjust to new, changing or difficult situations with relative ease)

  Confident (You feel a sense of competence in at least some of the important areas of your life; you possess a sense of self-respect)

  Curious (You have an innate inquisitiveness and interest in the world around you)

  Engaged (You have the ability to connect with others, to give and accept support)

  Humorous  (You're able to find humor in situations)

  Intuitive  (You have good hunches when it comes to understanding others and how they behave)

  Inventive  (You have the ability to see things in different ways; to come up with alternatives to problems; and to express yourself through creative endeavors)

  Optimistic (You possess a sense of hope and a solid belief that the future will be fine, or better)

  Persistent  (You're tenacious and have the ability to work at something that's important to you)

  Self-directed  (When something truly needs to be done, you're able to recognize it on your own and muster the inner resources to do it)

  Spiritual  (You believe in some force larger than yourself and our own [and others'] human abilities)


So self-assessment time:  Which of these qualities do you have?  Which would you like to develop?  How has your growing up in the household of a pwBPD taught you some of these qualities (and which ones)?

i always knew something was a miss with my mom...

6 years ago i was in a really sadistic and abusive relationship. my mother shut me out... she "couldn't deal with it... watch me go through it"... she turned her back on me when i needed her the most. that's when i thought "she loves herself more then me".

i'm starting to see that i can't cure crazy...

What a great list of qualities!  I do often think that these qualities are the ones that help me the most when I can access them.  I feel I'm best with adaptable - I've been in many situations over the years and am able to accept them and handle them, even if they're not what I was used to.  And spirituality - I'm very engaged spiritually, and it helps me enormously.  I think in fact this is one of the most important things that helps me heal - reminding me that there *is* some structure in life, there *is* such a thing as right and wrong, even if certain individuals don't always realize it, and I don't have to do everything myself, there is a G-d who runs the world, so I don't have to!  lol.  I'm also persistent and optimistic.  I have trouble with confidence and engagement - I have a lot of energy when I first start a project, but setbacks really throw me for a loop, more than most people, perhaps.  Engagement is also difficult... .I tend to prefer a more passive role in relationships, and have a hard time asking for, and defining, what I want.  

Looking forward to hearing others' answers!   xoxo

LD,  I have written in my responses above.   Thanks for this.   I have been too focused on my shortcomings as of late, this was a welcome distraction.   nf      xoxo

Adaptable (You adjust to new, changing or difficult situations with relative ease) I feel I have adapted very well: moved across town, changed churches, got remarried to my ex, lost 75 pounds, decorated the inside and outside of my house, planted a garden and window box this year! : )

  Confident (You feel a sense of competence in at least some of the important areas of your life; you possess a sense of self-respect) Yes, still working on that, but doing better... .can actually see progress.

  Curious (You have an innate inquisitiveness and interest in the world around you) Always been curious. Like watching talk shows to see what others think of things.

Engaged (You have the ability to connect with others, to give and accept support) I have worked a little harder at this this past year and it has paid off.

Humorous  (You're able to find humor in situations) This I have struggled with in my recovery. FOO laughs at everyone and everything scornfully, so it is hard to learn the difference between good humor and not so good humor. Also, when I laugh really hard, I find I have my UBPDm's laugh... .not good

Intuitive  (You have good hunches when it comes to understanding others and how they behave) This is something I've had all along that helped me survive. I find usually my first impression is correct. But I find I am giving people more the benefit of the doubt and realizing that sometimes people just have bad days and that is okay. I have bad days and that is okay.

Inventive  (You have the ability to see things in different ways; to come up with alternatives to problems; and to express yourself through creative endeavors) I guess that I play the piano and improvise, sew embrodiery, experiment with other "arts" is the creative side I am beginning to enjoy once again. I stopped all this towards the end of my captivity with uBPDparents.

Optimistic (You possess a sense of hope and a solid belief that the future will be fine, or better) My darling hubby is EXTREMELY optimistic and I really appreciate that in him. Grounding myself in truth and what great things/people I have in my life now really helps with the optimism.

Persistent  (You're tenacious and have the ability to work at something that's important to you) This is one trait I have always had and REALLY irritated/irritates my FOO.

Self-directed  (When something truly needs to be done, you're able to recognize it on your own and muster the inner resources to do it) This is slow to start. When you have spent most of your childhood and most of your adult life being constantly told what to do, what look to have on your face, what to wear, how your hair should be (uBPDm would come at me with scissors constantly trying to cut "that stray piece", this takes work... .having initiative is what I call it.

Spiritual  (You believe in some force larger than yourself and our own [and others'] human abilities) Herein lies my foundation and my only Hope. Without God's unconditional love, I wouldn't be here.


So self-assessment time:  Which of these qualities do you have?  Which would you like to develop?  How has your growing up in the household of a pwBPD taught you some of these qualities (and which ones)?

I was around 23 when I got my first glimpse (the power window debacle I posted about elsewhere).

I'm an adult-child of a borderline mother who moved out into the real world at age 26. I lived single for 3 years in massachusetts and suffered prolonged, severe depression, I was compelled to move back to my parents house in Florida at my mothers plea. A month later, just after my sisters wedding, I had a hysterical mental breakdown. This would kick off my repeat delusions. My delusions would always be triggered in social surrounding by an object or action that was suddenly imposed on me. I would then feel this biting anger at myself and anybody because of my self betrayal. The fear/anger that people would use me was excruciating. As my anxiety rose, the fear took over. This extreme sense of dread and oppression would take over my whole self. As this emotional claustorphobia took over, all of the sudden, any physical objects around would begin having an intent upon me by spying on me,expressing blame, and telling me what to do (i.e. stop signs telling me to stop everything I'm doing, light switches guilting me to turn them on). I felt like life was stripped of choices, and I was simply living an existence chosen for me.

As I was suffering from my delusions I had to quit my job and go through psycotherapy where I was later diagnosed with agoraphobia. At the time I was dating my wife long distance who lived in massachusetts (and that was hell from my mother). My wife has an NPD mother and as we were looking for any information regarding self-absorbed parents thats how I ran into BPD. Because of my agoraphobia I would stay home and read all day regarding BPD. I was able to make sense of my emotions and my delusions talking about my mother to my therapist.

Finally, through work in psychotherapy, I was emotionally able to withstand moving back to massachusetts to get married. not without trouble from my bp mom believe me. Since then, my wife and I have been working hard together healing from our childhood past and breaking free from our co-dependency.

Right now my agoraphobia has calmed down considerably, and I'm able to start working again. Until now I wasn't able to post anything online because of my phobia. I Still having a hard time feeling accountable and responsible for others feelings, but with time I know I will be able to manage my emotions through practice.

Currently I'm NC from my mother.

Yes Liondreamer,

  I was aware there was something wrong in myself and my FOO in my 20's , but I attributed all the "wrongness" to alcoholism in the family as well as my dad being raised by his abusive father because his birthmother left him when he was only two. Hence the first reason I never explored anything but alcohlism teachings.

   When I was in my twenties I also apparently put off looking into Personality Disorders because I basically thought any deviant behavior on my part or my FOO was due to sin , plain and simple.

    So I guess it took me years of being a strong Christian and learning quite alot about the bible to wake up and realize that God was not just going to zap me and make me instantaneously better and 'Oh so wonderful.'  I heard a modern day theologean N.T. Wright talk about this coinscedentally at the same time I started researching BPD , specifically HPD .  The two sources together really helped me "wake up" lately to the realization of true mental illness in the family and God loves me and will help, but I have to do alot of the footwork.

 Telios

 

Telios,  I was sidetracked by alcoholism for most of my life.    :'(     My father was alcoholic and my mother spent time in mental institutions for psychosis (in those days, there was no borderline diagnosis, I believe she was both psychotic and borderline),    she blamed my father's drinking for ALL of her problems and I and my siblings of course believed her.     In the meantime,  my father, despite that he was alcoholic was sane and behaved rationally while mother was a raging homocidal lunatic.   Even during my father's worse drunks, he was nowhere NEAR as crazy and dangerous as mother, not even close.    But I hold him equally accountable because he never sought help, stood up to her, or protected us from her.    Anyway, just want to say I can so relate to your story and also that I'm so grateful to have FINALLY emerged from the FOG.    Also so grateful for the board and all of you.    xoxo

It's wonderful to read these stories of awakening and resilience. Thank you so much for hosting this workshop, LionDreamer.




I've thought about this a lot. LionDreamer talks about coming to a place where we can have a "voice in the world." A prerequisite for that seems to be to have a strong enough sense of our selves as worthy human beings that we can have the faith our voices will be heard.

Like many on this board, my voice wasn't heard. Unlike some, my mother would at times give me messages about being lovable, worthy, and special. She is capable of going "witch," but is primarily a waif and a hermit. She wanted care and protection, and sometimes she would exalt me. Sometimes, she would BE me, "mirroring" in the classic BPD sense my own tastes, likes, qualities in a period of idealization. Other times, she would ignore or torment me, cast me as a selfish, evil, dangerous person. Thus my screen name, blackandwhite. The mirror she held up about who I am was cloudy, shifting, dark and light, uncertain.

Based on considerable evidence, I believe my father was a mild-mid level sociopath with narcissitic traits. The mirror he held up reflected only his desires.

I've been reading The Gaslight Effect, and one of the gaslighting strategies described is for the gaslighter to convince the gaslightee that she is "boring." The book focuses on romantic relationships and so examples include things like a boyfriend arriving for a date three hours late, and when his partner is upset, accusing her of being boring and conventional for worrying about something as mundane as time, when they should be focused on romance and how special they are.

My father used this technique and often conveyed to me that I was boring as a way to get me to do what he wanted. My mother didn't use that particular strategy, but she conveyed that I was worthy (and thereby interesting) only when I was meeting her needs. Other times, I was either evil or invisible. Between them, I often felt like they were picking me apart with their sharp beaks and I was just a small brown bird. Hiding, creating a facade with nothing to draw attention--those were my own strategies to avoid attack.

So I arrived to later childhood with a confused sense of self, a facade of dullness, and a belief in my lack of worthiness or interest to others.


This has been a very long process  :) I read thousands of books as a kid--that's how I hid. In the stories, I found characters, adventures, imagination, order and consistency in the process of narrative, resolutions. I began to write as a child and scripted plays that I put on with my friends. At a certain point, it struck me that I am funny. Little quips would pop out sometimes, and people would laugh--with appreciation and not mockery. That seemed amazing. Who was I to make people laugh? But it felt great, so I kept doing it, away from home.

In school, at work (I began waitressing at 13 to pay for food and clothes), and sometimes with friends, I began to create a different identity. There was a lot that was dysfunctional about it (people pleasing), but I started to learn that if I spoke with authority, or humor, or compassion, generally, people actually listen.

The journey to having a true voice in the world is a long one, and I love the resiliency exercise and will hopefully return to it--I see many of those qualities in the experiences I have just described. Thank you again, LionDreamer, for helping us to articulate these necessary journeys. 

B&W

Which of these qualities do you have?  Which would you like to develop?  How has your growing up in the household of a pwBPD taught you some of these qualities (and which ones)?

Adaptable... .I'm very adaptable as that seems to be all I did... .adapt to someone else and as I was taught by my mother to do what she wanted, I thought that was what I had to do with everyone else too.

Confident... .I don't have a lot of faith or confidence in myself. Even with posting on this board... .I'm ok with telling people what I went though to a point, but with suggesting any help to others, I have a hard time with that.  I don't feel that I have the knowledge or whether it's tainted by my own dysfunctional thinking or unhealthy perspective. Posting has helped me though because when I reply to a post and see what others have to say it helps me to judge where I am and if I'm on the right track or not with my thinking. I have to learn though how to balance the views of others with my own or else I could find myself right back there where I was with my mother. For now though I want to stay as open as I can to new ideas even if they feel uncomfortable.

Curious... .I've always been very curious about a lot of things but had to put my curiosity on the back burner because I had more important things to do looking after everyone. Being curious was a luxury but I'm trying to change that now.

Engaged... .I have trouble with this not on a superficial level but I find it hard to connect and spent my life even around my own family feeling like an 'outsider' or a 'loner'.

Humorous... .I do have a sense of humor but laughing or having fun was not an acceptable pass time in my family unless my mother initiated it so I learned to suppress my sense of humor.

Intuitive... .I always thought I was very intuitive because I could feel the pain of others but I would go into these situations and not protect myself.

Inventive... .It is difficult for me to see solutions to issues as individual thinking was discouraged so it is a big risk for me to let others see who I really am especially by putting myself out there in a creative way.

Optimistic... .Even when things were the darkest, I still felt somewhere deep down that we would be ok, that my family and I would somehow get through this, that there was someone or some power looking after us.

Persistent... .I love detail and hard work.  This is were I thrive but unfortunately my identity was also tied up with this. I learned to judge myself as my mother did by what I could do.  Now that I can't physically do what I would like, I have some sorting out to do with just where I fit now and who I am.

Self-directed... .I work better by myself.  Even at work if another staff couldn't do their job, I would do it but I never realized that I was doing them a dis-service.

Spiritual... .I'm a spiritual person and my 'problems' in life only strengthened my faith.  I did go through a transition though from being religious to being spiritual and it was humbling to realize that I'm just human.

Thanks for this LionDreamer. I was good to see where other people are with this.

justhere

Wow I must say I'm blown away by the depth of the responses.


makalou - you're description follows a pattern that seems to be emerging.  We, as children, knowing in our hearts and/or our guts that something wasn't right but then a crisis brings the knowledge to the forefront of our consciousness.


Penguinectomy, it sounds like a crisis made this knowledge available to you as well.   Both of you have experienced #1 of the Survivors Guide where it was a breakthrough crisis which gave you the awareness of what had been happening.


Dropsteppah,  It sounds like therapy was key for you in understanding more about your life.   It also sounds like you have made huge strides in coping with so many challenges to your psyche.  Just being able to post your journey confirms what a long journey you have traveled and how important your health has been to you.  Congrats on that.  Can you tell us a bit more about how you have managed to strive so strongly toward health?


Thank you b&w for giving such a well-thought out description of your process in how you came to see yourself through the mirror of your parents, a process that many of us have experienced as well and which is indeed confusing and invalidating.   I so love that you learned you can make people laugh and that humor has been part of your healing and your ability to recover your "voice"

             

I am going to wait a bit to comment too specifically on the resiliency exercise to give people more time to respond.   I do notice that among those who have replied already - the qualities that have been most commented on as qualities that we, children of BPD parents have developed are 1) adaptability, 2) persistence, and 3) spirituality.  I would be interested to see if others of you find these qualities are the ones that helped you most to survive and grow or found others to be more important. 

LD,

Yikes!  I'm not sure if I do yet understand or have a story of myself.  Clearly, I no longer rely on my parents.  I have not had much contact with them since I was 18 and I am now 50.  It's just that, I don't trust the story I have of myself...   it seems wiggly and slippery, unformed and hard to hold...

Thank you for this thread, LionDreamer.  I actually have had two separate "aha" moments when it comes to experiencing things from MY point of view.  The first was when I graduated college and moved 1/2way around the world.  Growing up, I was always a reflection of my uBPDm.  I did the things she told me I liked and didn't do the things she told me I didn't like.  It wasn't until I moved out permanently that I realized that a lot of the things "I" don't like were actually a lot of the things "she" didn't like - or was afraid of.  That's when I started to discover who I really am, what "I" really like and don't like.  I found that I am a completely different person than who I thought I was.  And, I really like the real me.

The second "aha" moment was not too long ago.  I came to the realization that uBPDm wanted me so much to be a certain way that she actually manufactured situations to mold me into that person.  For example, she had told me over and over growing up that since I was three years old, I wanted to go to a certain university.  That I used to watch college football games with my grandfather and he was a huge fan of this university and that is why I wanted to go.  I heard the story so many times that I accepted it as true.  I did end up going to that university (though, 1/2way thru when I wanted to transfer, she flew into a rage, saying, "If you don't graduate from X school, I don't want you."  Anyway, a couple of months ago I finally realized that I have NO memory of watching those football games with my grandfather.  (We supposedly watched them every Saturday during football season for YEARS.)  I only remember uBPDm telling me that was so.  So, I've started questioning my assumptions about a lot of things that uBPDm has said/done to determine what my real experience is/was versus what she has told me my experiences were.

  Adaptable (You adjust to new, changing or difficult situations with relative ease)

I do adjust to change, but not with relative ease.  I get very anxious with change, though I'm pretty good at hiding that anxiety on the surface.  I think this is because there was so much instability in my household growing up (calm one minute, rage the next) that I would rather things not change.

  Confident (You feel a sense of competence in at least some of the important areas of your life; you possess a sense of self-respect) -

I am quite confident in my work self most of the time and I am proud of what I have accomplished in my professional life.  However, when I'm thrown into new situations, I feel an overwhelming anxiety to "prove" myself, as if I'm really not competent and the new people will see right through my facade.  I think this comes from presenting a false self for so long, hiding my true self because my true self wasn't acceptable.  Of all of these qualities listed, THIS is the one I wish I could develop more fully.

  Curious (You have an innate inquisitiveness and interest in the world around you)

I am extremely curious.  I've lived in two foreign countries, I've traveled extensively.  I think this is because I stayed in one place growing up, and I felt that there has got to be something more out there.

  Engaged (You have the ability to connect with others, to give and accept support)

I am better at giving support than accepting it.  Accepting support makes me feel indebted to someone.  In the case of uBPDm, anything she did for us was held over our heads at a later date.

  Humorous  (You're able to find humor in situations)

Totally.

  Intuitive  (You have good hunches when it comes to understanding others and how they behave)

I tend to have a good sense of what people aren't saying; what their hidden agendas and motivations are.  Again, I think this is due to growing up with uBPDm, who always had a hidden agenda.

  Inventive  (You have the ability to see things in different ways; to come up with alternatives to problems; and to express yourself through creative endeavors)

I'm not so good at creative endeavors, though I am good at coming up with alternatives to problems.

  Optimistic (You possess a sense of hope and a solid belief that the future will be fine, or better)

Absolutely.  UBPDm sees everything in a negative light.  I got so tired of hearing the worst in everything that I have made a conscious decision in my adult life to see the good in things.

  Persistent  (You're tenacious and have the ability to work at something that's important to you)

I'm not so good at this with a lot of things.  I tend to start projects and not finish them.

  Self-directed  (When something truly needs to be done, you're able to recognize it on your own and muster the inner resources to do it)

This is also me, mainly because I couldn't depend on uBPDm or enDad to do the things I needed growing up.  I learned to do a lot for myself.

  Spiritual  (You believe in some force larger than yourself and our own [and others'] human abilities)

I do believe in God.  I'm not good at praying, though.  I think my lack of persistence affects this. :)

Dear LionDreamer,

   Both parts of this thread are really helpful. Thanks for starting this! |iiii

   Back to the first part, I reread what I wrote and have a few more thoughts to add. 

   Most all of the five of the children in my family (me included) have at one time or another, growing up ,acknowledged strange behavior on my mom's part. My oldest sister (13 years my senior) actually told my mom that she did not learn love from her, but from my dad.(my dad had alcohol issues and childish behavior, but for some reason he knew how to be loving, go figure!)  This was what she was thinking, so I guess you would say her reality.  Oldest sis got alot of affirmation from my mom on how capable she was, but apparently did not get a feeling of warmth and love. That makes me sad when I think about it now.

   Second oldest sister is the one whose behavior made me even research BPD, she had it so bad growing up with a lack of" love feeling" from my mom and lack of" validation" due to the fact it all went to the oldest sister, she I believe is a true Histrionic.  This sister has tried to look at my mom in a "good light", stating, " Mom always made sure we were clean and taken care of ". Sadly the lack of ability for my mom to show warmth and love very much hit this sister, ( I believe the hardest ), interestingly  :light: she (second sister) has been the worst to me, condescending, hit_y, bossy. I am 10 years her junior and on top of it she had no children of her own. :light:

    Oldest brother did not feel love or validation from my mom, but he rebelled, did his own thing for survival, and married young and started his own family.  His wife proudly announces that he has been with her longer than he was with his FOO. The only problem, which she does not understand is he never got help for his lack of being validated, hence lots o problems in their family, i.e. alcohol,drugs, materialism, divorces (his children), illigitimate children etc. etc. His wife now is obease, once a beautiful woman, and cries everytime her daughter confronts her about her lifestyle.

    Second oldest brother, the only one remotely close in age to me 5 1/2 years older, was labeled very early on the "black sheep". I have heard it told by my sisters, that he "had it the worst". Interestingly my mom said he was the easiest to take care of.  We believe he is an alcoholic. He has settled down to a life that makes him happy with an older woman about 15 years his senior.  He always treated me like his baby sister, even until my 40's when I finally confronted him to cut that s--t out!  He said he was glad I told him, and he respected me for it.

    With the influence of all these people in my life , including a somewhat emotionally challenged mother, and a loving, but sort of childish "party boy "father you can see the difficulty in my pinpointing exactly my understanding of my own experience.

     Also, my dad left my mom at least 3 times that I know of , one time when she had 4 young children and had to go on welfare and separate the kids to survive, and put them with other families, So when you throw the knowlege of this into the whole mix, it gets even more confusing.

    By the time I was born my dad only left my mom once when I was 11 y/o. She was Catholic so she always took him back.  Divorce not being an option in her mind.

Telios


   

Ahh pooh2, I think you described the issues succinctly and accurately.   Its that "story of ourselves" that so many of us struggle to understand.  Well stated.


Thank you irishbear99 for sharing the evolution of how you came to see your authentic self.   It is wonderful that you like the real you!   It is, indeed, a process of discovery.  


This must have been very painful to realize.   I think it really illustrates how the "mirrors" our BPDparents put up for us to see ourselves are distorted making all the more important for us to find and create our own "mirrors."


It sounds like there were so many toxic influences in your life, it is even difficult what came from where.   It is confusing, that is what this is a process that takes time and understanding.   It sounds like this was a pretty big revelation for you so perhaps you can now look at the tools and the survivors guide and use them as a foundation to uncover your authentic self, which must be pretty awesome given what you have survived.

The first two sections are still open if anyone would like to answer the question:

When did you begin to understand your own experience from YOUR point of view (not from your BPD parent or from any enmeshed relatives)?

Or take the self-assessment survey of positive qualities we've developed from our experiences.

Moving this workshop forward, I would like us to focus on how we can discover who our authentic self is or as pooh2 said, how can we know the "story of ourself".

Here is the question:

Have you told your story in a way that has helped you (through art/writing, public service/activism, faith communities, 12-step programs, therapy, to family/friends, etc.)? What has been your experience of telling your story?

Yes, I did recently. I wrote it out as succinctly as I could and then read it out loud to a group of about 35 women of all ages. After that, I was asked to give it again 2 more times in June of this year.

What was my experience? I had to work through that it didn't matter if they believed my story or not. God validates me and also I have many loving supportive people in my life now (many on this forum!  xoxo). I struggled with whether to relate some of the details of the abuse and then I realized I needed to for me (who was told not to tell) and for others who are still silent. A few weeks ago, one woman contacted me and told me thank you for sharing my "precious" story and that she too was abused and is going through therapy for it. She also befriended me on Facebook.

It has been empowering to name out loud what happened, especially since some of the women in the group knew me when I was "living" with my parents! To get to finally tell the reality, the truth of what happened. I called it "five miracles God did in my life".

As far as the resilient characteristics are concerned , I feel like I am pretty good in most of them , but I need to work on my intuitive side.

I used to think I was very intuitive, but it turns out I was probably just assuming things about people.  I now am trying to just listen to people and not worry so much about figuring them out as I have enough work to do on myself.

thanks, Telios

Oh, at the age of 30, about 2 months ago.  I was walking to work thinking about my partner when I started to really check into the thoughts I was having about our situation. So much of my focus was on how wrong I must be that she couldn't care, how bad I am at relationships, how I have failed again, how I would end up alone because I wasn't good enough.  About half way there, I realized that these things were all things I heard from my mom many many times over the years.  In different ways, for different reasons, but the same story:  I suck at life, I'll never be successful, I'm bad.  Moreover I recognized that everything I was doing to 'keep' S was the same I had to do to keep my mother calm.  Be the high achiever, make lots of money, smile and nod and go along, suppress my feelings, caregive and placate.  By the time I got to work (only a 20 minute walk mind you!) I was so freaked out that I had to turn around and come home!  I spent the rest of the day journaling, crying, and angry.  For lots of reasons, I kind of pushed it all down until just a few weeks ago when I just couldn't any longer and have since been very focused on the inner child work, which has been both hard, sad, and incredibly helpful.  I feel more alive then I have in a long time, if that makes any sense.  

As far as the good qualities, I think I have those and many others.  My biggest problem right now is figuring out who *I* am.  I think it's a lot more funky and creative and eccentric then my FOO would ever have desired, but I'm kind of getting excited about finding that out and letting loose.  Within the framework of an adult world where I have responsibility, I very much am giving myself whatever liberty possible to both be a kid and listen to/validate whatever healthy stuff she wants or feels.  I'm just so over being so restricted.  It's time to play.  

Thank you for sharing this empowering story survivorof2,  I love that you not only felt empowered by speaking out loud what happened but you also empowered other women who saw some of their own lives reflected in yours.  It just amazes me how we always think we are alone in this, but then when we speak out truth we find we are not alone.   Thanks so much for this lesson.




Interesting self-insight telios.  Good work.


In reclaiming our lost selves that is exactly where we need to focus "who am I?"   jardin, I love that you consider yourself funky, creative and eccentric and are exploring those qualities of yourself. Happy play-time! 

In telling their "stories", survivorof2 found empowerment, telios found strengths as well as an area of her life that needs work and jardin is finding her inner child.   All of these are truth.

Have you told your story in a way that has helped you (through art/writing, public service/activism, faith communities, 12-step programs, therapy, to family/friends, etc.)? What has been your experience of telling your story?

Would anyone else like to answer the question?

Dear Liondreamer,

  I have told much of my story to some good friends , over time.  I have told my husband most of my story, if not all.  As far as expressing it in art, activism, faith communities, not so much.  I did just see a lay counselor at my church and a lot of stuff was told in an hour and half time, and it was soo helpful.  This board has been one of the biggest areas I have told about my story.  I am thinking of printing out all the posts I have made to kind of organize them for future reference for myself also. ( not sure if I can , but going to try).

  I think I am still a little to raw to share a concise ,detailed account of my life circumstances to a large group.  Just talking about it now , kind of makes me feel a little melancholy.  My mind automatically goes to the damage I have caused my own daughter from lack of knowlege of how I was harming her with my authoritarian parenting style , which I thought was important at the time.  My parenting style was harsh as well as my own sickness and  my-issuesof selfishness and worrying about how our family "looked" to other people all the time.  I was more concerned about that at the time then what was going on with my own daughter. turity, mixed with selfishness, mixed with being married to someone with there own anger issues.

  Trying not to be to hard on myself , for lack of knowledge, but also balance it with doing the right thing now, now that I am learning better relationship, listening and boundary skills.

Hope this did not turn into  something off track.

Thanks, Telios

Telios, I'd like to address this and hopefully something I say might help... .

You will know when you are ready to tell your story. It has been 6 years for me and I just now feel ready. Still scared and scarred, but ready.

I too caused damage to others through my enmeshment with my FOO. As I told my daughter one time recently when she asked why I couldn't be there for her in the past, "what did you expect with the way I was 'mothered'?" I told her I am working at things and trying, but if she is expecting perfection, she will not get it from ANY mother.

A BIG part of my healing has been acknowledging what my part was that hurt others and going to them and apologizing. It has been SO hard to do this at times, because of what I've gone through with my uBPDparents. But then I remind myself how much it would help me if my uBPDparents could just acknowledge that what they did to me was wrong.

So my acknowledgment of what my kids went through, my helplessness, my poor parenting skills because I was just trying to survive abusive parents, etc. is important to me. Otherwise I have nothing to work at and stay stuck in the past and what was done to me.

xoxox

telios, I agree with survivorof2 that you will know when you are ready and I would also add, HOW you are ready.  For me, what makes our journeys so unique to us is the different ways we do them.  For survivorof2 speaking in front of a group was right for her.  For you and many others, speaking here is how we get our stories out.   For many, that is enough.  For some it might be sharing with one close friend.  For others, they may need another form of "speaking" whether it be artwork, writing, etc . . . There is no right or wrong way!



You both hit on a big aspect of healing and reclaiming ourselves - an honest assessment including where we have made our own mistakes, recognizing them and working to make things as right as we can.   I have certainly had this myself with my three children.  With the unrecognized fleas  my-issuess I had, esp when they were little, I did create some "woundings" for them.  We have had a lot of healing to do together esp. since they are all grown now.   And I feel very fortunate that they have been willing to walk the healing path with me.   

Thank you telios and survivorof2 for bringing this up, because I believe it is an important step to finding out who we are in the world, for both better and worse,

LD 

When we work to reclaim ourselves, figure out who we are in the world, we use mirrors or validation to experiment and learn about ourselves.   That validation can be external (someone else holding up the mirror) or internal (holding up the mirror for ourselves).   Jardin gave an excellent example of what it means to find internal validation:


We can also find internal validation by recognizing the good qualities we have learned from our experiences.  irishbear99 gave us some examples of how this can be done, by consciously deciding to do things differently than our BPDparent. 


There is also external validation.  survivorof2 gave us an example of this when after telling her own story, another women approached her in friendship.


So here are our next questions to explore:

If you have had success finding validation outside of yourself that has helped you know yourself as lovable, worthy, and special, how has that happened? Please share your story.

If you have had success with self-validation (inside yourself) how has that happened? Please share your story.

I'm kind of new hear, so I apologize if this is sort of long, catching up. I'll be as succinct as I can.

1. When did you begin to understand your own experience from YOUR point of view (not from your BPD parent or from any enmeshed relatives)?

I think I'm still just beginning this process. I still have a lot of internalized negative messages about myself that run circles in my head. I'm still kind of letting go of the idea that maybe I'm not fundamentally bad or flawed.  So, maybe tomorrow, this will be a little more clear. It's a little clearer today than it was yesterday, at any rate.


This makes a lot of sense to me.



2. So self-assessment time:  Which of these qualities do you have?  Which would you like to develop?  How has your growing up in the household of a pwBPD taught you some of these qualities (and which ones)?



   Curious (You have an innate inquisitiveness and interest in the world around you) I think this is true. I am interested in many different things, especially learning about how things work and why.  Sometimes to the point of being interrogative, when I'm talking to and/or learning about a new person. (Curiosity was not a praised quality living with my family.)

   Engaged (You have the ability to connect with others, to give and accept support) I am much more comfortable giving than accepting support. I think I'm good at supporting others, and listening to them (or at least trying to) I'm not nearly as good at asking for help.

   Humorous  (You're able to find humor in situations) Yes, I think so. I think I'm funny, so long as people like puns. (And if you don't, I'm still kind of punny funny.) This too, is newer. To appreciate things that are funny.

   Intuitive  (You have good hunches when it comes to understanding others and how they behave) Eerily good, at times. Usually within a few words, or a few seconds of watching body language. A lot of this comes from needing to be extremely tuned in to other people's emotions and moods.

   Inventive  (You have the ability to see things in different ways; to come up with alternatives to problems; and to express yourself through creative endeavors) I try to. Some forms of creativity are easier for me than others.

   Optimistic (You possess a sense of hope and a solid belief that the future will be fine, or better) This is a new one, for me. Maybe I can say "cautiously optimistic." Today anyway, I have trouble being consistently optimistic. (Consistently pessimistic or pragmatic, I can manage every day of the week, however.)

   Persistent  (You're tenacious and have the ability to work at something that's important to you)

I prefer to get things done quickly, but if it takes longer, that's all right too.

   Self-directed  (When something truly needs to be done, you're able to recognize it on your own and muster the inner resources to do it) Sometimes I feel that I'm the only one that does this, in certain situations. When other people are not as self-directed, I find it very frustrating.

   Spiritual  (You believe in some force larger than yourself and our own [and others'] human abilities) Yes. HP and I usually talk on a daily basis by necessity for my own fractured sanity.

3. Have you told your story in a way that has helped you (through art/writing, public service/activism, faith communities, 12-step programs, therapy, to family/friends, etc.)? What has been your experience of telling your story?

I've shared my story a few times, within a framework of substance abuse recovery, in speaker meetings. (Very uncomfortable). I don't know how I would tell the story of me growing up. Addiction is a very large part of it, but in telling that story, I inevitably leave out large portions of my childhood, frankly, because they're depressing. For me to tell all of it, I don't know where to begin. That's something I have been struggling with in therapy, is simply knowing where to start.

If you have had success finding validation outside of yourself that has helped you know yourself as lovable, worthy, and special, how has that happened? Please share your story. I live with someone who is very good at validation. Talking with other addicts, at any rate, has been validating of a lot of the feelings of "not enough" that I had growing up.

If you have had success with self-validation (inside yourself) how has that happened? Please share your story. I'm working with a very good therapist, who is helping me learn to do this, and to recognize my own feelings as valid. I still have very mixed results with this. My initial internal reaction is almost always self-invalidation.

DeityorDevil, your response is great.  |iiii I'm so glad you have someone in your life who is good at validation and a good therapist. 


There were many ways I got external validation, though I often wasn't able to take it in. I was a very good student and felt comfortable in the classroom. Generally I liked my teachers and they liked me, so I had approval from adults, and that helped. One of the most important bits of validation came to me when I got my first job. I was 13 and started waitressing. It was a family-owned restaurant run by the matriarch, who was a very kind lady. Not long after I started, when I was still really nervous about being able to do all these strange and unfamiliar tasks, she put her arm around me and told me I was doing a great job and that they loved having me around. It was such a moment of acceptance... .priceless.

Throughout my life I got messages from others that I was nice, lovable, fun, interesting, smart, funny, creative, worthy of success (as well as some not so positive messages  :)). But I discounted those positive mirrors for a long time. It's the old "if he/she knew what I was REALLY like, he/she would run for the hills."

For a long time, the feedback I was getting from the entire world wasn't strong enough to counter the "selfish, bad, boring, it's your job to take care of me" messages I was getting from my mother and similar messages from other family--and that were so strong inside me. I do remember one day perhaps ten years ago logically thinking it through... .my DH thinks I'm pretty nice and we get along... .X says I'm a good friend... .Y admires my work and finds me funny... .Z has encouraged me to pursue my talents because she likes what I produce... .The only "selfish, bad, boring, only good for what you do for me" people in my life were my own family! So maybe... .DH, X, Y, Z and others actually have a point?

That's when the external validation began to sink in and I became much better at self-validation.

B&W

External validation is still something I'm learning to accept (often with dubious grace.) Partially because of my childhood, and partially because of my own issues with anxiety, addict, etcetera, I have always been kind of a misanthrope. Admittedly, this reduced opportunities for external validation (I didn't have a "real" job until just a few years ago.)

Thanks for your story black&white, I think its very interesting that you needed external validation to sink in before you could become better at self-validation.   It's as if we need to "redo" the external validation we never received as children in order to discover it within ourselves.


I love that you point out DeityorDevil, how hard it can be to accept external validation, esp if that's something we did not grow up with. 

Here is the next question based on this comment:

It's excruciatingly slow. I feel like I was a grown up already, and now I'm a lost child who would like adult guidance and reassurance, but I can't move into that reassurance becuase I know with age that there actually isn't any, it's an illusion. No one protected me and now no one can. But I'm trying to grow up by getting a handle on my emotions and surrounding myself with healthy people and love, or just neutral events and people because that even keel stability, even if it doesn't run deep, is not chaos or drama.

How hard has it been for you to accept validation from outside of yourself?  If someone gives you a compliment are you able to accept it?  Can you recognize when a compliment is well deserved?   Have you had successes in life that you have belittled?  This is a good place for you to tout your own horn and brag a bit.

I'm still struggling with accepting validation from people I don't know well. When I know someone well, and trust them, I find it easier, because I know that they know more about me, good and bad, and if they see the good, then it must be true. What I'm learning, is that when people offer compliments, most of the time they are just being nice, and that it's more preferable to just say, "Thank you," and letting them offer validation, rather than argue with them about why I'm not whatever nice thing they said. Even if I don't agree straight away, I'm much better off accepting the compliment, than making my own internal invalidation an external voice. I agree with blackandwhite, that allowing external validation to sink in makes self-validation easier.

Accomplishments are sort of difficult, I hate to jinx anything.  I have (so far) 871 days clean, today. Almost two years and five months. Which is a very long time for someone who used for over a decade. I don't know if there are other people here who have dealt with addiction, but after using every day, two years is a very long time. I built and designed a recovery website, that hosts online meetings, and provides a free resource for people looking for information about substance abuse recovery. I also taught myself CSS (web styling language) in two days to do it.

@DeityorDevil:

Wow, CSS in 2 days! As a web professional, I tip my hat. Oh, and the sobriety, too - KUDOS! :)

This is such a great workshop. I'm still catching up, so here goes:


I'm sad to say that the true lightbulb moment only happened when I was 34 and living with my mother after a re-enmeshment following several years of NC. She hooked me in with being nurturing and refraining from all but the most covert abuse. When I moved in, she started losing those veils of "normalcy" one by one. After being in her house for about 6 weeks, I started thinking, "this woman ain't right," just watching her wild mood swings, the bizarre way she manages her schedule and her money, the way she would look flat out psychotic at times with her face all slack and devoid of any human expression... .

Then she flew into a true Mr. Hyde abusive episode with my sister, then 11 years old. She hit her and started screaming at her in this non-stop rage spew. My sister fled upstairs when I walked into the room to see what the hell was going on - and my mother just kept on screaming, without missing a beat, even though the person she was screaming at wasn't in the room anymore.

Which is when I went, "there is a word for this. The word is abuse. This woman is #$@#$ what is wrong in my life and always has been. It's not me. It's her."

It took about a year for this to truly sink in, and as I started to act on my knowledge, I had the, uh, mother of all breakthrough crises (yes, ALL of them  :)). I'm still recovering and keeping a sweaty grip on managing my PTSD and all that good stuff.

On the resiliency thing: I was really surprised by how many of these traits I had! I never thought of myself as resilient, because resilient people don't have depression break-downs or come down with mystery fatigue and such... .It's awesome to discover that I have a lot strength, actually!

Confident (You feel a sense of competence in at least some of the important areas of your life; you possess a sense of self-respect) - OK, not this one. I have a great big hole of helplessness instead, which I am sloowly starting to fill. I relate so much to whoever said that no matter their previous accomplishments, at a new job they expect to be found out as a fraud. That's exactly what I am facing now, week 1 into a new job. But I am not taking this "you suck and THEY WILL FIND OUT" crap at face value anymore, so there's progress.

Curious (You have an innate inquisitiveness and interest in the world around you) - Very! To the point where I have to counter-balance it with conscious focus on safety! I got an email from a recruiter who was looking to hire for an agency branch in Saudi Mother of God Arabia, and I sent in my resume immediately, because what an interesting experience that would be! Then I was like, if I couldn't take sexist street harassment in California, then Saudi Arabia life is probably not for me, c.f. recent hospitalization for depression and PTSD.



Engaged (You have the ability to connect with others, to give and accept support) - yes, definitely! If anything, I have had to learn to be less open and available for this type of thing, and to go slow until I know the person better.

Humorous  (You're able to find humor in situations) - another definitely! My sense of humour is the last thing to go, so if I can't joke anymore, that's when I'm REALLY depressed.

Intuitive  (You have good hunches when it comes to understanding others and how they behave) - I can read really well whether someone is angry with me or not. But I fall for fake niceness easily. So good in some aspects, not so good in others.

Inventive  (You have the ability to see things in different ways; to come up with alternatives to problems; and to express yourself through creative endeavors) - hell yeah, that's one of my strongest traits. Give me a problem to solve and I am as happy as a teen on instant messenger.

Optimistic (You possess a sense of hope and a solid belief that the future will be fine, or better) - OK, this is where I have another black hole instead. I am always waiting for my world to explode. When I turned 26, in 2000, I was stunned that I made it that far. I never expected to be alive in 2000. When I found a lump in my boob this summer, I was this close || to Googling hospices that allow pets. And did I go wig-shopping online? Why yes, I did. The lump turned out to be benign, just like everyone told me it would.

Persistent  (You're tenacious and have the ability to work at something that's important to you) - Well, I've been pretty bloody-minded about art-making, and a few other things, and I am feeling bloody-minded about putting my life back together.

Self-directed  (When something truly needs to be done, you're able to recognize it on your own and muster the inner resources to do it) - Another definitely. I'm happiest when I can work on my own projects, of which I usually have at least a dozen, with others all over my notebooks and sketchbooks, waiting in the wings.

Spiritual  (You believe in some force larger than yourself and our own [and others'] human abilities) - Yes, but I'm sad to say that the times when it helps me during a triggered state are very few and far between. I feel at my most spiritual when I am calm and feeling safe. When I'm falling apart and decompensating, I think the only thing that gets me through is survival instinct and the above-mentioned bloody-mindedness.

Coming to a place where we can have a "voice in the world." A prerequisite for that seems to be to have a strong enough sense of our selves as worthy human beings that we can have the faith our voices will be heard.

I still struggle with this. I have such a strong sense of shame and worthlessness that it's not even about my voice being heard, it's about having a right to speak at all. I am working hard on this, but it's in my bones: "You have no value. You don't matter. You are wrong and should be destroyed." It's such old programming that I have to rewrite the code one line at a time, bit by bit.

But I discounted those positive mirrors for a long time. It's the old "if he/she knew what I was REALLY like, he/she would run for the hills."

This happens to me a lot. I am so used to devaluation that when people say good things about me, it's like their lips are moving but no sound is reaching me. There is this layer of ice between me and positive feedback from the world.

But my most recent experience was different - at my old job, people told me over and over that they were very sad to lose me, that I contributed a lot, that I was very good at what I did and that I was great to work with. And I actually listened and accepted the praise and sank into it, and let myself feel that I deserve it. It was a real act of will, to acknowledge the hard work and focus I put into my work, and to appreciate not only my work, but also the fact that I did it in the middle of a deep depression and a huge crisis. Seems that once I accepted my own validation, I could accept it from others.

Mirroring: here's a story.

I had a bullying boss I spent 3 incredibly painful years trying to please. I got so used to thinking that I am a terrible employee, designer, person, member of society that it was always there like background radiation, even years after I left.

Two years ago I went to visit my grandpa in Ukraine, who helped raise me along with my grandmother, and who was probably the most loving and stable adult in my life when I was a kid. We were sitting in the kitchen, setting up a meal, and grandpa looked at me for a beat, and then said the most amazing thing: "You are preparing everything so thoughtfully and carefully. I bet you do your job like that too, well and thoroughly."

I felt like a brick fell on my head, but a really nice brick! It was so... .healing to have someone look at me, really look at me as I am, notice me, and then say something so appreciative and complimentary. And then I realized how few such moments there had been in my working life. And then I realized what a total ___hole my manager had been.

I think that having my grandpa in my life as a child probably contributed a lot to the fact that I am still here.

Loren, I love that you are working to surround yourself with healthy people and with love.  This is so very important in learning who we are and how we function and in sharing that knowledge.   


It is interesting to see how extrernal validation makes self-validation easier.   Great job on your sobriety, that must be very validating for you as well.


Yes, yes, good point and thank you for sharing how very painful to feel worthless and sometimes we even need to learn that we have a right to speak. 


So you needed to accept your own validation before you could accept it from others.  This is a different side of the process.   I am thinking its like a feed-back loop where both the external and internal validations create a gestalt type of process where each side is more than the whole.


Yes external validation again - so very important for us to grow.   I am so glad you had your grandfather in your life.  What a gift!


The following was brought to my attention by black&white and is from the book Fear and Other Uninvited Guests, by Harriet Lerner

This story of successful assertiveness concerns Sheila, and adult daughter (not living at home) who is struggling with her relationship with her parents. She's also overweight and finds her parents are strangely obsessed with that. One day they offer to pay her to lose weight; they'll set up a scale in their bathroom. They can do a weigh in when she's there, keep a chart, and for each 5 pounds she loses, they'll pay her $100. She is tempted but feels really strange about this offer. Eventually, she realizes that there is a theme of her parents--especially her father--not respecting her boundaries over the years. She recalls he "spanked her bare bottom until she was 12" and wouldn't close the door when he was using the bathroom, even when she asked him to.

Contemplating allowing her parents involvement in her intimate body experience (through efforts to lose weight) felt strange to Sheila. She politely declined the offer, and her parents both unleashed a lot of anger at her, accusing her of being insulting and oversensitive.

Although the reaction wasn't positive, Sheila feels a sense of accomplishment over asserting her boundaries. The courage she gains from this allows her to speak her piece to her father about the past:

Quote from the book:

Speaking assertively inspired Sheila to speak even more bravely. Taking courage to the limits, she opened up another conversation with her father about the violations of her childhood Confronting painful issues from the past can sometimes help us build pride where shame used to flourish. But the process requires us to face fear and walk through it.

Sheila started the conversation when her dad was flipping through the TV channels. Her father was a poor listener, but she recalled that he did a bit better when he didn't feel the pressure of eye-to-eye contact. The conversations that had gone well in the past had happened in the car, doing dishes, while the TV was on, or with some other distraction in place. So one night, in the TV room after dinner, Sheila jumped in.

":)ad," she began, "I was thinking about your comment the other day that I was oversensitive when I turned down your offer to pay me for losing weight. Maybe someone else would be grateful like you said."

Sheila paused, took a couple of deep breaths, and then continued. "It got me wondering if maybe my extra sensitivity relates to some painful things that happened in our family in the past." Staring at the TV, her dad said, "I don't know what you're talking about."

":)ad, you didn't respect my boundaries when I was growing up," Sheila went on. "You left the door open when you urinated, even after  asked you to close it. You gave me those spankings that felt humiliating to me. And you made comments about my body and about my friends' breasts. These behaviors of yours left me with a lot of anxiety and anger. So perhaps I'm especially sensitive to wanting my boundaries respected when I say I would like you and Mom to back off about my weight and let me deal with it in my own way."

The entire time she spoke, Sheila's father channel-surfed as though his life depended on it. Now he turned sharply to look at her. "You have one amazing imagination," he spit out. Before she could respond, he rose from his armchair and stalked out of the room. As Sheila watched him go, she realized she was shaking.

Few actions evoke more anxiety than carefully opening a conversation about past harm.

(end of book quote)

The author goes on to say that Sheila didn't get the response she wanted or hoped for, but "getting the 'right response' is rarely our reward for speaking when afraid." Instead, it is "the sound of our own voice, speaking our own truth, is what we most need to hear."

And so the final questions of this workshop:

Thank you random and LionDreamer. Recovery is not easy, but nothing is more worth it.

Can you imagine feeling valued, lovable, and worthy even if your relative with BPD never sees you this way?   How can you or have you achieved this?

I don't expect my father to ever see me as valuable. Even if I were exactly like him, it would not be enough (my golden brother- on the other hand, can do no wrong. I think he's in prison now for assault. The last letter from my mother said my father is looking forward to when he gets out and is going to get him a car, they're on foodstamps, but I believe he will find a way to get an extra car somewhere.)

Seeing myself as lovable, I'm working on. I try to be aware of how people talk to me, and keep positive people around me, who are good at showing love to everyone around them (not just me. My father is pretty hateful toward 99% of the population). I feel valuable when I feel that I am perfect, have made no mistakes, look right, act right, feel "right," and other people can lean on me. A huge part of how I experience value, is in being dependable now, someone that people can lean on when they need to, because I was not for many years. (That junkie thing, you know.  Junkies are not the most reliable people in the world.)

I think I also- find value in not being like my father. In going out of my way to do something extra for other people, to give back as often as I can. To make an effort to tell people that I love, that I love them, that I appreciate them (because I'm not especially easy to be with all the time.) To investing more in people outside of myself when I can.

When did you begin to understand your own experience from YOUR point of view (not from your BPD parent or from any enmeshed relatives)?

only recently am i starting to trust my own perception, intuition and feelings.  fear has kept me not doing so for over 35yrs.  fear for the consequences of uBPDm's retaliation at my independance.  i think this was first driven home to me at age 2,when she emotionally rejected me for learning to walk and bonding with my older sister.  nc is helping me to provide a safe space for myself in my home, heart and head.

Adaptable (You adjust to new, changing or difficult situations with relative ease)

yes, at university, when i worked abroad, moving homes and becoming homeless at 16yrs old.

Confident (You feel a sense of competence in at least some of the important areas of your life; you possess a sense of self-respect)

not so much, but i'm working on it!

Curious (You have an innate inquisitiveness and interest in the world around you)

very,  i used to get told off when in education because i had so much curiosity for the world around me. i still do and really enjoy learning.

Engaged (You have the ability to connect with others, to give and accept support)

i'm working on this one too.  i can connect with others and from the real help i've received here i'm learning how to accept REAL support and not the fake, conditional, self serving support that BPD's offer.

Humorous  (You're able to find humor in situations)

definately, humour helps me stay grounded.  sometimes things are so strange and way out that they end up funny!

Intuitive  (You have good hunches when it comes to understanding others and how they behave)

definately,  i try to listen to and understand the origins of my gut feelings now because i'm beginning to trust that they never lie.

Inventive  (You have the ability to see things in different ways; to come up with alternatives to problems; and to express yourself through creative endeavors)

yes, but was conditioned to believe that this made me different in a bad way.  needs some work.

Optimistic (You possess a sense of hope and a solid belief that the future will be fine, or better)

i have hope that my strength will pull me through.

Persistent  (You're tenacious and have the ability to work at something that's important to you)

if its important to me i will see it through.  which i guess makes me aware of how strong i can be.

Self-directed  (When something truly needs to be done, you're able to recognize it on your own and muster the inner resources to do it)

yes, very independent and self reliant.

Spiritual  (You believe in some force larger than yourself and our own [and others'] human abilities)

i believe that this force is something that we are a part of and is within us.  i don't see it as something outside of us.

If you have had success finding validation outside of yourself that has helped you know yourself as lovable, worthy, and special, how has that happened? Please share your story.

this forum has been that anchor to me so i can work towards validation and having healthy throughts.  i read books, do alot of thinking... .combining rational/logical thinking with emotional feelings, i question my thoughts and feelings now which helps me change what i no longer like or need.

How hard has it been for you to accept validation from outside of yourself?  If someone gives you a compliment are you able to accept it?  Can you recognize when a compliment is well deserved?   Have you had successes in life that you have belittled?  This is a good place for you to tout your own horn and brag a bit.

its been hard to let the good in, as i got used to the 'good' really being a 'good for uBPDm but not for me',but as i'm learning the difference between the genuine good and the pretend/self serving good that BPDs give, its getting easier to trust it and accept it.  i never really belittled my success, more... .never acknowledged it.  i'm beginning to reolize how strong and resiliant i have been to overcome genetic difficulties, 7yrs in care and parental abuse and neglect. that was some accomplishment!  i think i have a good anchor within that guides me with my feelings while my mind helps process and understand these feelings, and i'm working on strengthening it and freeing it.

Can you imagine feeling valued, lovable, and worthy even if your relative with BPD never sees you this way?   How can you or have you achieved this?

definately, its what i work towards. i work to free myself physically,mentally and emotionally from the conditioning of my parents with nc and by keep asking myself these questions until there are no more.

On the Fugitivus blog, the writer talks about how she felt that if she left her abuser, she would be a bad person, and then she decided to embrace and accept the parts of her that constitute a bad person. When I think about my life post-reporting my mother to CPS, post-disownment, the words "gallows bird" keeps popping up into my head, but I feel a strange sense of pride in them.

I think it goes a bit like this: they hated or treated as non-existent important parts of us. And we need to locate those parts, notice them, interact with them, ACT on them - and make a conscious effort to see them differently than the abusers saw them. I have to see myself through different eyes than theirs.

That's how I am working on it. The idea of rights, human rights, keeps coming back to me as well - that I have a right to safety, a right to control over my life, and that right is inalienable and mine no matter what anybody says. It's almost like growing a new chunk of my brain.

This is still a challenge for me.  I have to make a conscious effort not to brush off compliments - when I get one, I pause for a minute, to tell myself "no, you can really HEAR that, you don't have to discount it or rationalize it out of existence."  It feels a little unnatural, but it is extremely healing to allow myself to receive kindness. 

I very recently realized that I still belittle my successes - over the past year, I was in the running for two important goals, one of which was more significant and prestigious than the other, and I didn't attain the first goal, but I did achieve a smaller goal.  Recently a friend congratulated me on the smaller accomplishment, and I was surprised, and corrected her, oh no, you're mistaken, I DIDN'T actually achieve anything, and she was like, I know you didn't get that other thing, but this is its own accomplishment.  (Hope that's not too confusing!).  I had so thoroughly discounted achieving that smaller goal in my mind, I didn't understand how it was something that was worth congratulations.   

I definitely still feel stuck in this area between starving myself of validation and arrogance.  It's hard for me to relate to my accomplishments without either minimizing them out of existence or taking the attitude, "well, of course I did well, don't you know I'm brilliant?"  I think when I was younger and academic accomplishment really replaced love and security in my life, I was very arrogant because I craved that attention so much, so I've learned to minimize my accomplishments, since that's so much more socially acceptable.  But then I don't allow myself to take pleasure in the things I do achieve, especially when they fall short of my (very ambitious) goals.  It's definitely something I struggle with.  I'm looking forward to hearing more about others' experiences!

Salome: It was very hard for me, earlier on this thread, to not say, "Oh well, I had to learn css because it needed to get done- not a big deal."

Except for I said it now. But, let's pretend I didn't say it. It was referential. Anyway, yes. It's really difficult sometimes, to accept praise. Even- maybe sometimes especially- praise that is deserved. When I've worked hard for something, sometimes I feel like I haven't worked hard enough to justify acknowledgement.

when was it? i knew things were wrong when it started getting crazy and UBPDM started hitting me, but because no one believed me(school counselors, relatives). i learned that it wasnt gonna change, which depressed me and led to me internalizing everything. i rebelled for awhile but i feel like she finally wore me down, like she was actively trying to break my spirit. i have no idea how i got so lost as to let her... .

A positive outcome from a negative experience -  |iiii  You do describe a healthy way to validation



Ouch!  I too have been able to trace my abuse and rejection to the age of 2.  Uncovering such abuse is not only painful but its difficult to uncover as it is prememory for the most part.   And yes, yes much fear.  What did you fear all these years?  I would say I most feared the pain of really knowing and having to deal with the reality of it.   I am so delighted you are beginning to trust your own perceptions, intuition and feelings.  That is truly a path to health



Yes again, you have expressed what it is to take the initial messages we receive as children, that initial mirroring we receive and and change the messages, change the patterns that are so dysfunctional and thereby coming to know yourself!  Great work!


werkinprogress, not getting that validation in the outside world makes the process of changing our mirrors all that much harder.  It sounds like your rebellion was your way or rejecting the mirror of your FOO which is an important step before we can rebuild our own mirrors.  Again good work.

LD

apparently its quite a common reaction in BPD parents, to see their childrens first independance (walking) as a personal rejection.  my older sister told me about this, i don't consciously remember it.  what did i fear?  her chaos, violence, depression and mostly how she had everyone else wrapped around her little finger, all blind to her abuse, so ready to blame me for her problems. the isolation.  being totally trapped, unable to escape, no where to escape to. 


thank you!  :)


i also rebelled.  to the point that they made me homeless when i was 16.  i agree with the feeling that it seemed like she was actively trying to break my spirit.  like some sadistic kick for her.     soo glad i'm nc.

Healinghome: I think sometimes that rebelling probably saved my life. I left at 16 too, even though I come from a rough area, and probably could have died. Staying with them, I definitely would have, and it would have killed my spirit and soul in the process. I think the strength that leads to rebellion can also make it possible to survive just about anything.

It looks like I missed those years when it was part of growing up to detach from your parent and it only been these last few months that I've been going through any kind of rebellion.  As I was totally enmeshed it never occurred to me to even question my mothers behavior so speaking up to her is totally new territory for me.  It feels a little strange to going through these stages of trying to find and assert my own independence at 61 though and it's more then a little embarrassing.

It's not about trying to convince my mother of the error of her ways though or even for me to get her to see that I deserve to be recognized at a individual person because I know that she has already made her choice. It's about finding my voice and being able to speak my own truth. To me it's a proclamation of my freedom and that I refuse to continue to deny my right to be who I am.

justhere

   

i definitely see my uBPDm as sadistic. and calculating. but something else you said made me wonder... .i was kicked out when i was 17, by 'mom', then dad, then 'mom', then aunt, then 'mom', then boyfriends house, then 'mom' again. (shuffled back and forth). i regret that i didnt have a job for a long time(which is a long story of family related stuff but whatever) and i stayed with her past 18. it was then that she commandeered my social security number to get cable and a phone and whatever, telling me that if i didnt cooperate i could find a new place to live. i had already tried that and failed, so my credit report now has her "name" on it, a hybrid of her maiden name and married name which DOESNT REALLY EXIST. this is all on top of her actually taking my paychecks whenever i did have part time work, so it was really hard to save money to move out. i dont let these things dictate the course of my life now, but my situation then seemed to have no escape, all catch-22 like.

As a rap up to this workshop, I would like to go over the resiliency exercise from Roth and Friedman and give an overview of responses.   There were many wonderful experiences of how members have learned to look at themselves through different "mirrors" than they learned in childhood with their FOO.  And it is through our resiliencies, our strengths that we come to a point of validating ourselves without the consent or help from our FOOs.  I was impressed with everyone who answered that aspect and were able to articulate strengths and abilities even in the face of a FOO who resented those qualities.  

As random said:

"On the resiliency thing: I was really surprised by how many of these traits I had! I never thought of myself as resilient, because resilient people don't have depression break-downs or come down with mystery fatigue and such... .It's awesome to discover that I have a lot strength, actually!"

Adaptable (You adjust to new, changing or difficult situations with relative ease) This was a quality which most respondents felt comfortable with.  Salome described a life with a lot of changes and moves.  Irishbear99 spoke of anxiety with change and then under curiosity spoke of living in foreign countries and traveling which are hallmarks of an adaptable nature.   healinghome spoke of being homeless at 16 as a motivating factor in learning this quality.    

Confident (You feel a sense of competence in at least some of the important areas of your life; you possess a sense of self-respect) This was probably the most challenging quality for members to embody.   newfreedom spoke of feeling confident at work but not always in other areas of her life.  survivorof2 sees progress in her life in this area.   irishbear99 brings up the interesting point of why internal confidence can be so difficult.  irishbear99 said:  "I think this comes from presenting a false self for so long, hiding my true self because my true self wasn't acceptable"

Curious (You have an innate inquisitiveness and interest in the world around you) This was another strong trait among members.  justhere felt a natural curiosity was suppressed by early childhood experiences and parentification which didn't leave time for it to develop.  

Engaged (You have the ability to connect with others, to give and accept support) This quality had mixed responses with several people pointing out (irishbear99 and DeityorDevil) that it was easier to give support than to receive it.  

Humorous (You're able to find humor in situations) This was a very strong quality.  blackandwhite found validation through her sense of humor.   healinghome felt it grounded her and survivor of 2 spoke about this humor being suppressed because it was used by FOO in a scorning manner.  

Intuitive  (You have good hunches when it comes to understanding others and how they behave) This was another strong quality.  :)eityorDevil has "eerily good" intuition.  irishbear99 gave one explanation of how this can develop:  "I tend to have a good sense of what people aren't saying; what their hidden agendas and motivations are.  Again, I think this is due to growing up with uBPDm, who always had a hidden agenda."  survivorof2 spoke of this quality as helping to survive.  

Inventive  (You have the ability to see things in different ways; to come up with alternatives to problems; and to express yourself through creative endeavors).  This quality drew a very mixed response.  newfreedom summed it up with a "sometimes."

Optimistic(You possess a sense of hope and a solid belief that the future will be fine, or better).  This was another mixed response with DeityofDevil speaking of being "cautiously optimistic."  justhere was able to hold onto optimism in her darkest times.

Persistent  (You're tenacious and have the ability to work at something that's important to you) This was another of the strong categories.  survivorof2 says "this is one trait I have always had and REALLY irritated/irritates my FOO."  justhere says:  This is were I thrive but unfortunately my identity was also tied up with this.

Self-directed  (When something truly needs to be done, you're able to recognize it on your own and muster the inner resources to do it) This was a pretty strong category as well.   irishbear99 says that she developed self direction because she could never count on her uBPDm or her endad.  

Spiritual  (You believe in some force larger than yourself and our own [and others'] human abilities) This was the strongest quality of all.  Telios spoke particularly about faith where other spokes of an innate spirituality.   newfreedom said: "this is what keeps me on track and grounded"  Random made an interesting point that is it harder to feel the sense of spiritual connection when times are hardest.  


Good Work to all.  I invite anyone else who is interested to take the resiliency exercise and to particularly pay attention to the mirrors from childhood and how those mirrors changed and healed in adulthood.   In other words, how we come to know ourselves and who we in the world.  

LD


And PS we were also treated to other resilient qualities jardin gave us the qualities of being funky, creative and eccentric.   And several members spoke about the importance of rebellion.

There was so much to discuss on the resiliency exercise I didn't want to cut short or leave off this interesting discussion on rebellion:





It seems that rebellion - rejecting the messages we had gotten as children - are a crucial means of coming into ourselves.   I'm wondering how many other people found that rebellion was a pathway to healing? Do we need some rebellion in order to break away? 

i'm not too sure about how it affected me then, but i know that now, rebellion doesn't really do me any favours.  so its something i want to change about myself.  i don't really see rebelling now as a means to break away from uBPDm either, more out of survival, because it comes with sadness and acceptance of reality.

For me, I don't think I'd call it rebellion as much as a new way of seeing life. I feel like my FOO rebels against EVERYTHING and EVERYBODY protesting all the way. I don't want to be around that or even think that anymore. Obviously I am a more passive person also, which drove them crazy. They were always trying to mold me into them. So working hard to be what I really am, for me, involves peace. But it does involve hard work to mature in areas that were sadly deficient when I got away from uBPDparents.

I think this is an interesting discussion which I never thought about before.   I looked up "rebellion" in Websters and the first definition was the "art or state of armed open resistance to authority, government, etc .  .

Under "rebellious" it says "resisting authority" 

So I"m wondering - this word can be triggering because our BPDparents are always angry and fighting against enemies mostly imagined so they seem to be a in constant state of aimless rebellion.   

But the "resisting authority" definition for rebellious seems to me to have a different shade of meaning.  I am thinking that if the authority is our BPDparent then resisting is what allows us to keep, protect and nurture part of ourselves, the part that we never give over to them.  And that part then becomes the basis for us to heal and achieve the focus of this workshop:  reclaiming ourselves. 

Any thoughts?

LD

I see what you are saying LionDreamer about the different ways you can look at rebellion but in the context of my mother any disobedience or not doing what she wants when she wants it, even the word 'no' itself would be a rebellion and it would feel like it to me as well. I can't imagine how I lived all those years joined to my mother enslaved to her whims. 

I guess it was the deception and covert manipulation that kept me blind and even though I was the 'family scapegoat' I was also the 'golden daughter' in a way too who was kept happy to the point that I could remain agreeable and available to attend to my mother.  As long as no one made any changes this arrangement could go on indefinitely but my ill health intervened and stopped everything in its tracks.

It was my mothers words that kept ringing in my head when she pushed me to walk further then I could that day and it was then that I first saw who she was.  I had thought that we were in this together, that she cared for me as much as I cared for her but now here she was demanding that I give in to this silly whim of hers when doing so was causing me extreeme pain and she sat there smiling and totally unconcerned for me and seemed to be even enjoying my discomfort.  That was the moment that shook me awake. So since then it has been for me a rebellion of sorts or a testing period, like would she do this again?  or what would she say if I responded this way? By acting contrary or speaking up to her is helping me to see who she is and dispel all my old thinking. 

It is also helping me sort out how I feel and what my wants and needs are and seems to be a way of reinforcing those thoughts to myself.  I agree too that these realizations have been painful and confusing and very difficult because my family is not taking any changes in the family positions easily especially the freedom of one of its own. .

justhere

uBPDm is exactly this!  in a constant state of aimless rebellion.  when it does her harm or good, she doesn't seem to care... .only about the rebelling itself as means of sticking it to any perceived or real authority.




i can agree with this.  resisting the authority of uBPDm helped me preserve a tiny part of me that now i am able to nurture and grow with.  it served me, but to continue it now does me no good... .what does that mean?  us rebels are BPD?

well i thought i had reclaimed my lost self... .but see that maybee not... .my mother is BPD... .growing up i always knew that there was something wrong... .i was a young girl... i mean like 8 or 9 and would pray that God would come and take me back... .so i started hating her and God. i would go to friends houses... and as we walked in the mother would say hi in a nice friendly matter... .that alone would make me cry and hoping that i could have a mom like that. of course she did many great things for us but was so mean... .we couldent get to close to dad... .in fear he would abuse us(she was abused as child) everytime i would talk to a boy... .this is at 12 or 13 yrs old she would tell me i was a sl**... .a man eater... .can't even imagine those words coming out of my mouth today as an adult. i always felt i was a bad child... .bad sister... .as she put older sister against me threwout our childhood. my brother is is the only boy and he is the golden child... her soul mate she calls him... .I , the sibblings and dad all know that this is sick and unhealthy now... .but its like the big elephant in the room!... .lets not make mommy upset... .my father has cancer now(mmmm) and mommy feels that he is getting all the attention. man i'm mad.  i have lots of therapy over the years for different issues... .but i see that i dident go to the bottom of some... .i just forgave without reliving the pain i guess? could that be? can you imagine a child to was so innocent and to have been so put down finally leaves the home at 16 ... gets married... .has 4 children... .then husband commits suicide. thats me! can you imagine how awfull and guilty i felt... .thats why i needed therapy... .to cope in a healthy way... and it saved me and my kids!... .so i thought i was done... the kids a grown all doing good... .now its me... need to fix me.  i have been seperated  for 2 weeks now  i feel so guilty that i cant even make a small descision like is it ok to share a meal with a male friend?... i can hear her calling me those names again and hubby right there with her... .when will i be able to just just live my life?

For me, any open rebellion would have gotten me killed. I don't even think it's an exaggeration. I was a quiet, timid bookworm of a kid/teen, for the most part very good at compliance and hiding, and even that provoked mother and stepdad into constant physical and verbal assaults. If I had openly resisted them, there is no telling how they would have worked me over.

But I really like this:


I think I rebel very slowly and very quietly. The little voice that goes, "this effing sucks and you are full of crap" pokes through the fear and the brainwashing like a stem growing through concrete. It took me a long time to leave abusers, but once that voice spoke up, I didn't fight, or stage a big confrontation or whatever. I just hauled up stakes and left.

Some of my rebellions, were very overt. I really dislike admitting that my father and I are alike in some ways, but I have a switch in my head too, when pushed too far. And sometimes it was the only way to be heard, or to make a point that wasn't what he wanted to see or hear.

There's a comedian, (Christopher Titus) who talks about growing up in a pretty- crazy household, and getting hit with adolescent hormones when he was 16, and getting into it with his father. Something to the effect of, "Bring it on old man- I'm not seven anymore am I?"

Yeah, sort of like that. For a while we fought all the time, verbally, physically or I stayed out of the house. Pretty much from the time I was more than five feet tall until I left.

(Sidenote: Christopher Titus, I find really funny, and definitely identify with a lot of the crazy sh!t that went on when he was growing up.)

This long journey (32 years and counting) began only upon physical separation from the household. I literally got as far away as physically possible (another country and another continent.) I sincerely believe the journey is ongoing and has come full circle - in my experience anyway. Finally deciding to get the answers I needed - or possibly die trying - lead me to Randi Krieger's book, "Stop Walking on Eggshells." In a sense, reading and comprehending the information contained therein has put me on the final leg of my painful journey in understanding and coping.

Thanks for the bump Clearmind, I think this will be really helpful!


I first started seeing other families were different when I went away to college and stayed in the dorms.  Things started getting progressively worse as I did more things without her: getting married, buying a house, having kids.  The moment of clarity came in the middle of a massive argument, where I was accused of many unrealistic things and flat out told my feelings didn't matter.  I had a moment of just feeling "I'm done."


Adaptable (You adjust to new, changing or difficult situations with relative ease)

-I'm not sure where it comes from, but I love change!  Every 2 or 3 years I start getting really antsy for some major life change.  I want to try new things!  I'm pretty good at figuring what needs to be done in what order and get it done.

Confident (You feel a sense of competence in at least some of the important areas of your life; you possess a sense of self-respect)

-This is something I'm working on.  I'm good at my job. I get good feedback.  But yet there's still that voice in the back of my head saying, "You should be able to do more!"

Curious (You have an innate inquisitiveness and interest in the world around you)

-Very much so.  I'm always questioning why things are the way they are. I love learning new things.

Engaged (You have the ability to connect with others, to give and accept support)

-I have a hard time connecting with others.  I'm very shy, and when I try to be supportive, I often come across fairly blunt.  I just recently learned to ask for help.

Humorous  (You're able to find humor in situations)

-I'm not at all, but my kids are helping me open up and laugh more with their silly antics.

Intuitive  (You have good hunches when it comes to understanding others and how they behave)

-Definitely! My very survival depended on reading my mom's slightly varying moods, so that I could react in the least offensive way.  I can read body language and tone of voice better than average.  However, I used to get frustrated because I would wonder why other people couldn't see things that were so obvious to me.

Inventive  (You have the ability to see things in different ways; to come up with alternatives to problems; and to express yourself through creative endeavors)

-I love problem solving.  And I thoroughly enjoy a good craft project.

Optimistic (You possess a sense of hope and a solid belief that the future will be fine, or better)

-Yes, always.  This is what saw me through some very difficult times.  Being able to see that there were periods of time I just had to bide my time before I could move on was what kept me going.

Persistent  (You're tenacious and have the ability to work at something that's important to you)

-I am so stubborn.  When I decide I'm going to do something, I'm can't get it out of my head until I do it.

Self-directed  (When something truly needs to be done, you're able to recognize it on your own and muster the inner resources to do it)

-I do.  Partly because I'm a bit impatient and I don't want to wait around for someone else to finally get a plan of action in place, I'll set things in motion.

Spiritual  (You believe in some force larger than yourself and our own [and others'] human abilities)

-Yes.


I'm a fairly open person and talk about my family when it comes up in conversation.  My husband has been the biggest help by being a sounding board often.  I have had the whole range of responses from friends ranging from those who don't understand (disbelief, and, "You should try harder" to those who have been really supportive and understanding.


My husband all the way.  He was the first person that loved me unconditionally.  It was partly his example of treating me in a manner I deserved to be treated that made me realize the relationship I was in at the time was not good for me.  I still have days where I have a hard time understanding how he could find me so perfect when I see so many flaws. I still have a hard time as seeing myself as a special, unique, and important individual, but I'm early in my journey and working on it.




I have a very time accepting outside validation.  Someone else says good job, I say to myself that I could have done better.  I sometimes can accept a compliment, but I don't know that it will ever stop making me feel uncomfortable.  I've probably had compliments that I didn't even hear or realize.  Pretty much all of my successes were belittled by my family.  In school if I got anything less than an A, I got in serious trouble.  I remember a two hour lecture from my mom that had me bawling the whole time because I brought home one B on my report card.  She never bothered to ask why.  If I excelled at something, her response was, in an off-handed manner, "Well you should have. That's what's expected of you."  I graduated college with honors, with double-majors, in 4 years, by taking credit loads high enough I had to get adviser permission, and I still didn't get more than that.  It took me a few years, but I finally realize that was a huge accomplishment, I'm proud of myself for that, and it doesn't matter what my parents think.


I have good days and bad, but overall I do feel I am.  It's taken a long time for lots of external validations to slowly sink in and help me realize that I am.  These people all say I do a good job at work.  These people say they like to hang out with me.  This guy liked me enough to marry me.  Maybe I am.  I still hurts that my mom doesn't see me in this way, but I'll surround myself with people who do.


I feel I did have to rebel, but I had to wait until I was in a place to take care of myself in order to do it.  I was threatened with mom's way or the highway (literally).  She made it very clear if I didn't want to play by her rules, I was on my own.  So when I rebelled (stopped doing everything she wanted), she cut me out of her life.  But for me it was a very important step.  It was like saying, "This is not ok.  I deserve better.  I will not accept this.  You cannot control me anymore."  It was very freeing, and it's giving me the space I need to heal myself.

I know it's long, and I don't know if anyone will actually read this, but just going through this was really helpful!