BPDFamily.com

US: Boundaries - Upholding our values and independence

This thread is a split off from bpdfamily.com/topic=61684 (https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries .)

You like your house and you are disturbed to find some of houseguests you invited for the weekend wandering into private areas of your home. They eat things out of your refrigerator. They use your toothbrush. They watch the TV in your bedroom. Without asking. It's really distressing, but you don't know how to get them to stop. You're kind of embarrassed by the whole thing, vaguely ashamed. You wonder if you shouldn't be more generous of heart. Maybe they don't have their own toothbrushes or TVs. Maybe there was a misunderstanding about what was okay to use and what not? Maybe you were unclear?

Time passes, far longer than a weekend. The houseguests are still there. Your house falls into some disrepair. The TV breaks. The toothbrush is disgusting, so you throw it away and go without. They leave the water running and flood the bathroom. There are fingerprints on your walls.

You think, all right. People aren't always that neat. Maybe I'm selfish or petty to worry about the fingerprints. I was watching too much TV anyway. Anybody could make a mistake and leave the water on. Overstaying their welcome... .maybe that's just how things are for those folks. I don't want to stand out, be a troublemaker or a bad host. You go to the dentist and discover you need a root canal and also have a serious black mold infection from where water from the bathrooms leaked into the walls, so you get kind of distracted by all the medical care and repairs and don't have time to think about these people who are overwhelming your house.

One night you come home and one of the kids is sleeping in your bed. You have to sleep on the porch swing yourself. You wake up with a terrible backache. You finally decide you can't take it anymore. So you push the houseguests outside and you buy a very strong lock for the front door. You lock it up tight and say, there! Nobody can come in.

But the houseguests come right back in. They rifle through your mail. They take some of your treasured items. They let the dog out.

As you sit on the couch and cry in your dirty, ruined living room, you think, your house was so nice, your health was so good, your front door lock is so strong, what happened? Then you look out the window and there's a sign pointing toward the back, where the door is wide open. It says, "Take what you want. The person who owns this house doesn't care."

---

In this story, the house represents your values, your code. The front door with the lock is an attempt at a boundary--a failed attempt. Too little, too late.

When we talk about boundaries, we often talk as if the boundary itself were the thing to focus on. How big is your lock? What brand is it? How many locks do you have? We sometimes forget that the boundary is just the thing that protects what we value.

But to know how to use the lock, to protect ourselves effectively, we must know what we value--all of it.  In the story above, how important is fitting in, how important is it to be kind and understanding, how important is it to be a good host, how important is your health, how important is your privacy, how important is a clean home to your family, to you?

We tend to focus on the boundary violation and violator. He or she is outrageous! He or she doesn't treat me right, doesn't give me respect--he or she walks right in and takes what he or she wants!

True. The person is a boundary buster--has bad boundaries him or herself--but how do we get it to stop?

We have to know ourselves and believe enough in ourselves. If we doubt our right to protect ourselves, or are confused about what are values are, how well can we have a clue about boundaries? Sometimes, of course, our values can be very clear and an invasive person will overstep and invade our boundaries anyway. Usually we know how to deal with those types of boundary violations, and our response flows naturally. For example, if someone actually invaded our home, we would call the police and try to assist them in catching the culprit.

Other times, however, our values are less clear. Someone demands something of our time or heart and instead of acting from firm belief that we get to choose how we spend our time and how we express our feelings, we doubt ourselves. The demand may make us furious, but it doesn't fill us with quiet determination. Instead, we have a mix of anger, hurt, and confusion. We brandish our lock and say "Why don't you respect this?" and then open the back door wide.

In this workshop, we will explore the dynamics behind those times when we need focus on our values in order to implement our boundaries. We'll discuss:

1. The clues about ourselves provided by some boundary violations

2. Ways to clarify and strengthen our values (plural)

3. Boundary setting that flows from a firm sense of our values

4. Proactive implementation/communication so that others are involved

As a start, it would be helpful to have a few examples of boundary violations that we can analyze.

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

Question: How what values did it violate?  

Question: What did you do?  

Question: What happened?

Question: How do you feel about it?

What I find interesting is that non-BPs value putting others first--but marry people who seem to always put themselves first. This creates a core conflict.

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

This example is from my youth. My mother went into my drawers while I was out and read my journal.

Question: How what values did it violate?

My private writings are mine and I didn't give her permission. I shouldn't be punished for "thought crime" (the result of her reading that I wanted to be sexually active with a boy I liked at the time.)

Question: What did you do?

Since I lived at home still I could not do much. I simply stopped writing about my feelings. When I moved out the following year I resumed.


Question: What happened?

She searched my room even more often and thoroughly. She was furious that she could not find more "evidence" of my "bad behavior" (note: I had not had sex at all. Had just written that I was curious. Pretty normal for a young teenager I think.)

Question: How do you feel about it?

To this day I have a hard time writing honestly about my feelings. To follow your metaphor it's like I moved out because I learned that locks don't protect my home.

Also, angry.

I'm sorry that happened to you, anker.




That's very understandable.    Obviously, as a child, our options are greatly limited in how we maintain our boundaries.


It sounds like you responded by forming a very rigid boundary, along the lines of, "If my feelings are a thought crime, I just won't express any feelings in writing"--is that about right?

So your feelings are protected this way. That's a benefit for you. Are there costs, as well? If so, what are they?

When you think about your values today around feelings and expressing them, what are they? What is important to you in this arena?

B&W

Because of this and other similar boundary violations from that time, I still have a very hard time expressing my emotions. I often feel fearful or embarrassed. Nervous laughs. I rarely write about my feelings. Therapy has made this easier. But I feel like asking for anything in a relationship will end in disaster- so I find it very hard to even ask someone to listen to me or take my feelings into account. It's much easier just to say nothing

I really do still feel muted by this. Silence andsilencing and neglect was my mother's style and I still have deep wounds related to speaking up.

Anker, I'm glad therapy has helped some. Those wounds from childhood boundary violations can run deep and need time and work to heal.   

The issues your story raises are very common and apply to many. In Adult Children: The Secrets of Dysfunctional Families, the authors say, "Boundary violations teach us to be victims." Boundary violations over time that we allow as adults also teach us to be victims. Learning not to be a victim requires recognizing our patterns, clarifying our values, and acting firmly from those values to protect ourselves.

Responding to significant boundary violations by not expressing your needs or creating a wall rather than a flexible boundary is not at all unusual. It's an aspect of the relationship pattern we sometimes call codependence. From US: Dealing with Enmeshment and Codependence (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=111772.0) we get some definitions. The pattern you're describing is disengagement, which is very protective, but is an approach that can cut you off from intimacy in your relationships and getting your own needs met. As anker said, "But I feel like asking for anything in a relationship will end in disaster- so I find it very hard to even ask someone to listen to me or take my feelings into account. It's much easier just to say nothing." This is an "antidependent" style of approaching relationships--take a poll on your style at POLL: Are you in touch with your needs and wants? (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=123654.0)


Let's imagine anker or another person were an adult in the situation she described, as an adult. Or introduce your own example. How might we:

1. Clarify the value being violated?

2. Cope with the boundary violation?

3. Communicate with the boundary buster?

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

After my SO was out of her first stay in the Psych ward (probably 4 months ago now) she was exhausted and wanted to just get home and get to bed. I took her home, switched on her phone to charge (it was held by the staff whilst she was in there) and 2 messages popped up. I went to clear them thinking it was her employer whom she'd had a falling out with thinking she can deal with this later (her boss was what initially triggered her OD). To my shock I saw that they were both from a man she knew from years back arranging a visit with him in a hotel on the coming weekend.

Question: How what values did it violate? 

Fidelity, trust, the sacred nature of a relationship.

Question: What did you do?   

I said I needed time alone and I would take her back to the hospital (she was released on the proviso she would be watched for the next 48 hours). I also gave her an easy out, told her I was very ready to part ways for good and if she wanted to not waste this opportunity with this guy for her to take it - at the time I was beyond caring. She ended up texting him and asked me to watch and told him she was sorry she strung him on but she was in hospital and didn't want any further contact as she was in a relationship. That act meant nothing to me at the time - an empty gesture of someone who wasn't sorry, but was upset at getting caught... .again.

Question: What happened?

She agreed to go back to the hospital. She didn't want to face her actions and I didn't want to explode. I took her back, left her in the waiting room, rang the hospital later that night to check she'd been admitted and didn't see her for the next 2 days. I visited her in hospital after that and told her that we needed to see a psych together before she was released as I wasn't going to have her released under my watch.

Question: How do you feel about it?

Now? I pity her. But I respect the fact that she has undertaken therapy and medication and is attempting to break the cycle. If I actually think about the situation and recall it in my mind, of course I feel anger and sadness.

At the time? I felt let down, disappointed. But all in all I saw her for what she was, a very very sick individual. It hurt and it made me mad. I saw her mother in her - a very scary thing to see. It also made me reflect on myself and really ask myself what on earth I was staying around for.

All my life i was having poor boundaries yes i was using a lock but keeping the back gate widely open. Recently, after i joined the BPDF and other forum i learned about boundaries violation and how to protect my boundaries and started working on my priorities in life and setting my goals and values.

Thank you for this valuable work shop.

A story where my sexual boundaries were violated:

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

I was 18 years old and newly married. We were hosting my father in law for couple days. My H use to work the night shift. We had only one bedroom so my father in law was sleeping in the same room with me. I woke up at night when he was touching me and trying to get to my private parts. I FROZE only my mind was working . I was Shocked. Crying in silence. Calling God to help me to make him stop and not go farther. But DAMN i couldn't say anything I couldn't say NO STOP!

The next day i was begging him to not do that again i told him i don't know how to say no i don't want what happened but i don't have strong personality to stop what you did, please don't do that again i am your son's wife you are LIKE MY FATHER. He promised to not do it again and hugged me and i believed him and  forgave him. hehh!

The second night he did it again and also I COULDNT SAY NO

Question: How what values did it violate?  

Most my values were violated my all well being crashed down my self respect, the respect of others (the father image), my privacy,my commitment to my marriage, my inner peace, my security... .

Question: What did you do?  

I did NOTHING he left the other day and after a while our circumstances changed and we had to go live in his house. I was scared to tell my H and i thought maybe he regretted what happen and won't try again

But he was sexually harassing me so i found the strength to tell my H and it was the disaster... .My H had the shock of his life and this affected all our marriage for years because his dad was the reason of all his problems

Question: What happened?

We had to live with him for years because of financial problems and with the passing years he kept sexually harassing me every once in a while i was lying to my H scared to tell him the truth to not make him suffer i was suffering alone because we can't go nowhere else but i was stopping him not to protect my boundaries that i don't know how to protect but to protect my H's well being so i don't have to tell him one more time and hurt him like i did before.

But the way i was stopping my father in law was weak because i don't want him to get upset with me and i was trying to find excuses to his behavior. In other meaning i was using the lock but keeping the back gate open then running to close it when he tries to use it.

It is true he wasn't getting anything but i was exhausted from running back and forth to keep my doors closed

The priority in my mind was the well being of the others

Question: How do you feel about it?

I hated myself and my weakness i felt guilty i lost more my self confidence and security i lost my self respect and my H's trust to be able to stand up for myself and i lost my peace of mind i felt ugly i felt angry and hurt and suffering like a prisoner my life was hell... .

This is interesting, and there are many instances of both protecting my boundaries/values as well as allowing the boundary buster to waltz on in.

The incident that stands out in my mind happened when I was 17.

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

Mother became enraged and started close-fisted beating me, this was not the first time.

Question: How what values did it violate?  

This violated my value of self.  Self respect.  :)esire to protect myself.  My body is my body, nobody has the right to touch it in ANY way that I do not want.

Question: What did you do?  

I caught her wrists and just held them. I don't know if I said it, but I remember thinking, ":)on't ever lay a hand on me again."

Question: What happened?

Immediately she began crying because I’d hurt her. She wanted sympathy, which I did not give.  I do not recall much after that.  

Long TERM, she never struck me again.

Question: How do you feel about it?

As with any other times, I felt more emotionally hurt than physically - I felt unloved.  After all, how can you hurt someone intentionally and say you love them?  But due to my ability to stand up for my boundaries, I felt empowered.

Oddly, that was the last time for 10 years or so that I defended my boundaries…

Thank you CaptainM, LVS, and MyNascence for sharing your stories and examples. Those experiences were all very tough--as boundary violations tend to be. Sometimes they're small but you all described ones that are very profound.  x

In each of your stories, I'd like to highlight some of the themes related to boundaries and values that I see. As an outsider, of course, I can only speculate. You know yourself and your situation best. Starting with CaptainM:

CaptainM, you describe your SO's boundary busting as violating the following values that you hold:


You also mention your reaction to the incident:


You were clearly in a caretaker role with your SO at that point in your relationship, as she had just gotten out of the hospital. You recognized that she was sick. You also seem to hold as a value taking care of someone who is in need.

In this situation, you had two sets of values--both yours--to weigh. If you followed one entirely and rigidly, you would take one course of action (fidelity--push her out and leave her to fend for herself). If you followed the other entirely and rigidly, you would take another (taking care--say "she is sick" and let the boundary violation pass).

Fidelity, trust, sacred nature of a relationship                     <-->                               taking care of someone who is in need

What you chose to do was to make sure she was cared for by returning her to the hospital and at the same time, starting to change the nature of the relationship as the lack of fidelity was not acceptable to you. CaptainM's response represents a balance of two sets of values.

Often we get into trouble in boundary setting because we have conflicting values at stake and we can only see extreme reactions as options. Example: Boyfriend is usually very attentive to you but one night, he shows a bit too much interest in another woman at a party. We think we have two options only: I pretend nothing has happened and nothing is bothering me, because I believe in sticking with a relationship through thick and thin OR without discussion I put boyfriend out on his ear because I believe any sign of attraction to another is a violation of fidelity and any violation ends the relationship.

Pretend nothing has happened = enmeshed response, boundaries too flexible

End relationship immediately = disengaged response, boundaries too rigid

Either response comes from the notion that we cannot balance values, but instead must act completely from one.

Follow up questions: CaptainM, what are your value now around fidelity and caretaking in the relationship?

"I believe... .[values]

Have you continued to work on clarify and strengthening your values around fidelity and caretaking?

How and how have you communicated those with your SO, if you have?

Thank you again for sharing this very helpful example. LVS and MyNascence, I'd like to look at your examples next.

Comments from workshop participants on any aspects of the information or stories here are very welcome! What are your thoughts and reactions as you read this material?

B&W

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

I do not wish to have myself nor my children photographed.I have said this since they each were born (oldest is 8). My uNPD/BPDm has taken photos of each of them when she came to visit ( now NC). Thise photos are also blown up and put on her walls in her house, and she made and sent me a CD of all the photos with the first child!

Question: How what values did it violate? 

I'm not sure how to phrase this. Its that feeling that my wants are unimportant and are to be disrespected. She was in retrospect "baiting me" also and in order not to rise to it, i swallowed down my own wants, in effect reinforcing the "my wants arent important" thing myself   

Question: What did you do?  What happened?

This went on over years. Initially i was too scared to do anything, then over time started telling her. This resulted in a huge guilt trip "we live so far away we dont get too see them/ the photos arent for me but elderly relatives who cant come to visit" etc. As i started to verbally repeat my boundary, she became more and more sneaky in an effort to "prove" I would not give her a boundary... .she'd say she'd take the kids to the park... .a few days later one of the kids would say "how come she took my photo at the top of the slide when we dont do photos?" - or wait till i out of the room and whip a damn camcorder/camera thing out of her handbag - then a couple days later play it too me trying to get me to agree it was cute - then i didnt agree but felt i'd betrayed myself for not speaking up stronger


Question: How do you feel about it?

Angry at her for not repecting the boundary. Angry at myself for not being stronger - just telling her not to do it would make me shake literally. Sickened i betrayed my own values. I also know she was hooking me in to her passive agressive power game an unsaid "i dare you to stand up to me" - that just makes me feel defeated - like no matter what i try to keep out of her mind games, she will suck me back in

Thanks for the headsup!  Here's my contribution:

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

Before my wife was formally diagnosed, she had a habit of going through my email and IM archives to "see how I really felt".  It turns out she was looking for signs that I was going to abandon her, either because I mentioned her and our problems to someone or because I was too friendly with people.

Question: How what values did it violate?

My right to privacy

Question: What did you do?   



I banned her from going on my computer or entering my computer room unless she has an explicit reason to, and even then, I make sure she's on and off as quickly as possible.

Question: What happened?



Thankfully, she's respected the boundary.  It hasn't been without protest, mind you, but she's stuck to it.

Question: How do you feel about it?

It reminds me of when I was a kid, and my mom had a nasty habit of barging in on me without knocking.  It's so not a good thing.

Here is my example (actually a conglomeration of many individual incidents):

What happened?

This happened after I reached adulthood. My parents would talk disparagingly to me as if I was a child, giving me intrusive advice, using a tone and approach that made it clear they thought I was stupid and wrong, and be completely disrespectful of me as an adult. Often the issue was something very minute, almost to the point of being nonsensical. Once my dad made a scene because when I was in college I refused to wear rubber boots to a college conference (he thought I should because it was snowing, I was more concerned with my appearance). Another time when I was big-pregnant with my fourth child and already terribly depressed, he tore into me about a meal I made that he didn't like. Whenever these things happened, my mother would support him and double-team me.



1. Clarify the value being violated?

The value that adults deserve to be treated as equals, with respect. The value that I have the right to make my own decisions. And the value that truly loving someone means supporting them (and NOT denigrating them) even if they don't agree with you or do what you think they should. The value that there are a very few things that are worth causing a scene over.

2. Cope with the boundary violation?

When I was in college and through my young-adult years I would argue with them and get very angry and yell. This was ineffective. If I got mad then they would tell each other how mistreated they had been. They would go into "we are so mistreated by you" mode. It took til my early thirties (and the instance where I was pregnant and miserable) for me to "just say no to rages" myself. That time I withdrew into the bathroom (and my mother started pounding on the door threatening to go home if I didn't come out --- of course me NOT yelling and enabling them to assume the victim role was intolerable!) and didn't come out until I was calm. Er. And I quit engaging with them. I eventually withdrew from them a lot. They didn't get it --- couldn't understand why I didn't come by to see them more, etc.

3. Communicate with the boundary buster?

I kind of answered this above --- for a long time I communicated very poorly. Mainly because my gut level emotions were telling me I was being mistreated, but I had been so brainwashed not to see the maltreatment that I would just scream in frustration. I didn't feel I had the "right" to disengage from the relationship or even from the bad interaction, but it was intolerable to just sit and take it. Once I seized my right to disengage my need to get angry diminished greatly.

I still get angry with my mother sometimes (my father is now deceased). But the truth is, it gives her some kind of twisted satisfaction to make me angry. It's like, she taunts me etc. when she is feeling angry, and if I get angry, somehow this discharges her anger. It's very weird. For many years I just disengaged when they (or now, she) started their badgering. Now I am working on stopping it in the moment by pointing out when she is being malicious. She really hates it when I do that. But I spent most of my life thinking her maliciousness was normal (and that my dad's condescending talk was normal) and it is really hard to recognize it in the moment with my conscious mind.

I believe that partners should remain completely faithful to each other (physically and emotionally). I believe partners should do their best to be there for each other in times of need - I'm not referring to catering to self-created mini-emergencies or trying to soften the impact of consequences, more so when it comes to health (emotional and physical) partners should be emotionally and physically available to each other when possible and within reason.

As for communication:

For the fidelity issue, it's a matter of me initially telling her that I will no longer be in a relationship that is not exclusive and letting her know that I am strong enough to defend that boundary now. I think she needed to hear that I was strong enough to defend it this time - and I think the fact that I dropped her back at the hospital last time caught her by surprise. She has reiterated to me that she understands her issues with acceptance and she is working very hard on them (ways of distracting herself, allowing herself pleasure etc). I still remain on the look out for red flags, I know she feels she's changed but I realise she hasn't been truly tempted yet - but my boundary remains firm to protect my values and myself.

For the emotional/physical support - it's been give and take. I have had to realise she has limits and that she isn't as empathetic as I am (probably a good thing or we'd both be sobbing over Oprah episodes) and that she will shut off when overwhelmed. I've had to become more emotionally independent (again, I've found it a good thing). She has realised that mindfulness is one of her weaknesses and she is in therapy to address this. I can see her trying and it's refreshing but there is still a long way to go before I could ever rely on her and I'm not waiting for it. On the other side, I've also had to learn to let her be more emotionally and physically independent and stop trying to be a rescuer.

It's strange, I've never actually thought in depth about my actions that night - but I can see exactly what you said B&W, that interplay of 2 values.

The thing that I still struggle with is how to strengthen my fidelity boundary without "hounding" her or "rubbing salt in the wound". I have previously had a habit of trying to not let her forget about her infidelity - not trying to be cruel, but always feeling like if she forgot about it or it wasn't in the forefront of her mind, she'd do it again. I don't do that anymore but I find it hard to find ways to communicate the boundary. Is once enough?

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

My dBPDH went into my personal journal on our computer & printed out ALL of my journal. He threatened to use it against me in court. When I changed my password to my journal, he threated to take the computer and lock it in his company car (to which I have no access) and this was in a rage towards me at night when our then 4yo son had a temp of over 104 and I was trying to care for him.

Question: How what values did it violate? 

He violated my RIGHT to privacy. He threatened our son's health and he threatened to take my rights to have access to our computer (which is essential to my work). He was emotionally abusive to me & he frightened our son.

Question: What did you do? 

I tried to reason with him that our son was ill & he needed to calm down. He did not. Finally, I had to scream at him that if he didn't shut up, I would call the police. (this was WAY before I discovered how I need to react).

Question: What happened?

After a horrible confrontation, he finally went to bed and I stayed on the sofa with our son.

Question: How do you feel about it? I feel angry that he put us through that, especially our son. I feel that I was unprepared to deal with his outburst. I feel that since then, I have learned how to defend my boundries better. Mostly because I HAVE called the police on him. I think if I never had done so, he would still cross that boundry.

Thank you Gettingthere, iluminati, Jemima, and onAmission for adding your stories and examples. CaptainM, your follow up is very helpful and raises an important point.

We now have a lot of great instances to work with. Let's look through them and try to identify a few key principles related to boundaries and our values.

First, it can help define what boundaries are. There are many definitions, which is why this can be a squishy topic to explore. One I really like and think helps us move forward is from I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=128027.0). The authors, Gary and Joy Lundberg, use this definition:



In other words, where you set a limit for yourself is exactly where your values tell you your limit is.

We can also turn the formulation around:



So if you repeatedly allow your mother to scream at you on the phone as in an example described in the discussion of this article Article: Family Systems (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=131414.0) (and yes, she is very wrong to do so), your values are actually this: It's okay for someone to scream at me. I'm not worth protecting myself from abuse. My mother's needs are more important than my own emotional safety.

I want to return shortly to the stories and examples provided, with this definition under our belts.

Any thoughts on the definition?

B&W

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

At my work i have coworkers and the work should be divided fairly and we always have right to say no but i use to always say yes whatever people ask me always worried about what the others think about me

Question: How what values did it violate?

my right to be treated fairly I was feeling in unfair situation I was asked to do the others chores

my well being I was feeling bad about myself and uncomfortable while doing what i was asked to do

my self confidence i was wondering how can i say no? i can't make them feel that i don't want to do my job. What should i do i can't do anything about it

my self worth i was thinking that i have right to be treated better i am doing everything the right way what's wrong with me to be treated like that why the other co workers are in better situation?

Question: What did you do?

I was doing the tasks without complaining or saying any word even when within myself i didn't want that

Question: What happened?

The senior on the floor got use to only ask me to do chores because they found it much easy to ask someone who never say no

Question: How do you feel about it?[/font]

I started feeling in unfair situation and my senior is not fair with me I was thinking why they don't ask other coworker why only me?



When i started working on my boundaries i discovered the secret and i learned that it's ok to say no and i should not be perfect and it won't matter what the others think about me the most important in this equation is me my feelings my well being and how do i think about myself  

So i wrote down all my values, then i learned that boundaries means those values should not be touched

And when i started putting myself ahead, people around me started to change their ways and i was able to set my boundaries anytime i feel uncomfortable or any of my values is touched and what you said blanckandwhite showed it the right way

BOUNDARIES = my value system in action Or

MY VALUE SYSTEM IN ACTION = Boundaries :)

LVS, your two examples provide an amazing contrast.

In your first example, you describe your attempts to cope with your FIL's sexual harassment (so sorry you experienced that):


It sounds like you were keeping secrets, using denial, running around trying to take care of everyone but yourself. Generally, suffering and not feeling clear and clean about how you handled yourself, or as you put it, "using the lock but keeping the back gate open then running to close it when he tries to use it... .I was exhausted from running back and forth to keep my doors closed."

That was your Point A.

Your Point B is described in your second example:


Somewhere along the way, you learned this principle about boundaries and values:


From: Setting Boundaries Appropriately

Mark Dombeck, Ph.D. and Jolyn Wells-Moran, Ph.D. Updated: Jul 3rd 2006

www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=9777&cn=353

If you or anyone has walked a similar path would care to comment:

How did you get from Point A (not feeling like a worthy person who does not deserve to to invaded) to Point B (feeling firm in your values and self-worth and acting accordingly, including saying no in a reasonable way)?

We now have on the table in this workshop:

• A number of examples of boundary invasions and comments on those experiences and the values they violated



• A working definition of boundaries (comments welcome)



• The idea that effective boundary setting is linked to:

*Feelings of self-worth (LVS's contrasting examples)

*A clear understanding of one's values (many examples yet to be discussed that I hope we can look at in more detail)

*An ability to balance multiple values (CaptainM's example)

*The ability to recognize you are being intruded upon in the first place (Jemima's example is a good one of her learning to do that. She says, "Mainly because my gut level emotions were telling me I was being mistreated, but I had been so brainwashed not to see the maltreatment that I would just scream in frustration. I didn't feel I had the "right" to disengage from the relationship or even from the bad interaction, but it was intolerable to just sit and take it. Once I seized my right to disengage my need to get angry diminished greatly."

Thank you to all for your participation so far. There's a lot more to discuss, so keep the conversation flowing.

B&W

Thank you for sharing that, Gettingthere.

For reference (www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_Freedom_Technique):


I'm also worked on increasing feelings of self-worth, coming at it from several directions, including a cognitive approach. With a therapist, I identified negative core beliefs and reframed them. A key one for me was "I can sacrifice myself," as that was the attitude I took in my family to get through the experience of having two parents with personality disorders who expected me to sacrifice my needs and wants in favor of theirs.

I reframed that to "I am worthy of self-protection." It is amazing how often I would face little decisions on a daily basis in which there would be two paths, one leading toward self-sacrifice and one toward self-protection. Having the mantra of self-protection at the front of my mind helped a great deal when making those small (and big) choices.

We have a workshop that may be helpful, both for those raised in a BPD environment and for others:

US: Positive entitlement--taking the initiative to share in life's riches

We often view entitlement in a negative light, but there's also a positive version--honoring our own self-worth. Many raised in a BPD environment suffer from low self-esteem and fear and anxiety about pursuing our own fulfillment. This workshop explores the concept of positive entitlement, how to evaluate areas of self-esteem to work on, and ways to embrace positive entitlement.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=111984.0

---

So we're exploring boundaries related to self-worth and getting away from the idea that you focus only on the lock and instead look at the whole house. We've identified some principles of protecting ourselves with boundaries and values:

1. "Feelings of self worth is the foundation to enable a person to start working on boundaries and values" (from Gettingthere and looking at LVS's examples in particular).

2. Boundary invasions especially repeated, severe, and/or from childhood can leave us very self-protective and inclined not to take risks, as anker described. One common reaction is to develop rigid boundaries, a disengaged style to relationships (at least in some cases), and an antidependent approach to needs and wants. We are protected, but perhaps lonely and isolated.

3. The ability to recognize you are being intruded upon in the first place is necessary and then act, or else our boundaries are too flexible, we allow ourselves to be abused, and we likely have an enmeshed style of relationship. This is the opposite of the rigid boundary approach. We are not well protected at all. The doors of the house are wide open, windows too. (Jemima's example before she realized she could assert her right not to be abused, "I didn't feel I had the "right" to disengage from the relationship or even from the bad interaction."

We have examples on this thread of terrible boundary invasions, including physical and sexual abuse and endangerment. LVS describes a sexual assault. MyNascence describes a physical assault. onAmission describes a terrible confrontation that endangered herself and her son. Other examples are emotionally devastating.  LVS initially has trouble saying no. MyNascence was able to halt the physical attack but that encounter took a lot of the energy out of her ability to stand up for herself. onAmission called the police, but clearly had to endure quite a lot before she did. We need to have effective boundaries to protect ourselves or else our house will be ruined.

4. An ability to balance multiple values (CaptainM's example) is necessary to keep our boundaries flexible.

---

I'd like to look toward another principle by posing a question. If we say that boundaries are rules of a sort, who are they rules for? Are boundaries rules for yourself, or for another person?

B&W

Of course i wasn't seeing my life the way i see it now and blackanwhite you said Somewhere along the way, you learned this principle about boundaries and values yes i learned it in the hard way the price was so high after 28 years of marriage :)

I can see now how the problem started at my childhood my father was emotionally abuser i've been mollested at the age of 9 and at the age of 17 from adults who represent for me high level of power and social position in other word who are idol in life and i started having low self image and self worth and self respect i felt the guilt and shame and dirtiness for not saying no to the people who were nice to me and gave me candies not knowing that they stole my rights.

The worst was when my father in law did the same and shook the idol image of the father. In my mind fathers do not do mistakes so if it is not his mistake then it is mine

Marrying the man who is like my father made things worst after my FIL incident my H turned from idealizing me to switch me black. Living with one who has BPD traits was not helping my self esteem to see the light at the contrary it dragged me more down he was mistreating me and later our kids.

In all the situations that i went through in my life i wasn't self confident seeking to please the others to avoid being blamed mixing the concept of loving me for who i am and loving me for what i can do... .

I was so good in protecting my kids or anyone who needs me but when it comes to myself I was choosing to sacrifice my needs for the best of my beloved OR the best of the family or... .

All i needed was seeing myself as worthy

And finding a way to justify my actions so i don't feel guilty

The transition from A to B happened when i became totally consumed when i was broken in pieces when my patience reached the edges when no matter what i did or how much i ran back and forth to keep my doors locked didn't help to protect me from the invasion and the harm that resulted from that.

What brought me back was the LOVE OF LIFE i felt my self dying in unfair life i needed to recollect myself and save what is left of me

EVEN THEN i couldn't take the decision until i had this justification:

THE WELL BEING OF MY KIDS lol this justification gave me the push and the satisfaction that i need and i felt myself not selfish but it is also for my kids well being.

That's how i started improving myself in this point starting from my own life inside my house with my H. Each time i was gaining more confidence and more self esteem... .I was equally gaining more power and my H started to change strategies to attack in different ways but this showed me his weaknesses and empowered me even more because i felt i am doing right things to me and to my beloved (of course reading about boundaries and values and the support of the friends at BPDF and other forum  who were assisting me in my progress helped me a lot to see things clearly)

Anyway i am still in the process of forcing my boundaries and always trying to justify my actions to not guilt myself and i can say i am still doing the baby steps

It is still much easier to force my boundaries with people who doesn't know me than with the people who already knew my weakness as you said blackandwhite it is not this simple as it seems

The main think is i have had uncountable incidents in my life where my boundaries were invaded let's call them A to Z but when i improved in my life with me H in situation A the improvement reached all the places from A to Z because the change wasn't in my house it was in my inside and then all the other situations changed  |iiii

 I'd like to look toward another principle by posing a question. If we say that boundaries are rules of a sort, who are they rules for? Are boundaries rules for yourself, or for another person?

B&W

Boundaries, in my view, serve to regulate future interactions between ourselves and someone else. So, they're applicable to both.

In establishing a boundary - we want someone else to change their behavior. We hope they will, anyway. The act of establishing a reasonable boundary helps to empower us by taking responsibility for ourselves and helps stop setting ourselves up to be victims.

We set boundaries to define our territory and protect our space - physical, emotional, mental, sexual, spiritual, financial, etc. We set these boundaries because this is what we need to do for ourselves.

We set them having full knowledge that the other person may not be able or willing to change their behavior - and also that we are fully prepared to take any action we deem necessary when it becomes obvious that they're not going to change. That action may include cutting that person out of our life completely.

I've often been asked if setting boundaries isn't just a sophisticated way of manipulating others. And I suppose the difference between setting a boundary in a healthy way and manipulation is when setting a boundary, we let go of the outcome. If we intend to manipulate others, we expect a certain outcome. Big difference.

Thank you, LVS and CalicoSilver! Great further contributions. We're exploring the question of boundaries as rules and who the rules are for in relation to our formula:



I'd like to go back to an example Gettingthere provided us:

Quote from Gettingthere


Gettingthere also offered how awful she felt about these incidents. That bad feeling was a sign to her that something was wrong, that her doors were open somewhere and bad things were coming in. Telling her mother not to take photos was her lock (verbal boundary). However, if we look at her actions (and Gettingthere thank you for offering this for us all to learn, it's very instructive  x), we see:

Gettingthere lets Mom take kids to park--take photos

Gettingthere leaves Mom in room with kids--takes photos

Gettingthere allows Mom to discuss why photos are needed (guilt)

Gettingthere would watch video

Since actions speak louder than words, we can weigh these:



LET MOM TAKE AND DISCUSS PHOTOS REPEATEDLY         versus          ":)on't take photos" verbal statement

In this case, Gettingthere set a rule for her mother, but her mother chose not to follow the rule. It was a rule for another person; unfortunately, this person was a boundary buster. Once her mother broke the rule, she felt powerless (and angry and a lot of other things, I think) to stop it and even more defeated herself. 

The values here are probably something like--Gettingthere please comment or correct, as of course I'm speculating:

I believe in no photos for my kids. (This is what Gettingthere was verbally saying.)

I believe that I need to bow to my mother's wishes. (This is what the action is saying.)

I believe that I am a bad person (guilt) if I don't do what my mother says. (This is what the action is saying.)

I believe that my opinions do not matter. (This is what the action is saying.)

I believe that I can control another person. (This is what the action is saying.)

CalicoSilver said:


Boundaries as rules for other people don't work. Other people, especially boundary busters, break rules.

Does this make sense? Can you see this principle playing out in your own life?

On the whole, i agree with you B&W, and it looks laughable when you put it like that!

I agree boundaries are for us, not trying to control others, however you have put

"I believe that I can control another person. (This is what the action is saying.)"

Now i'm confused, how is the action saying i am trying to control her? In the sense that i dont want her to take the photos, then i guess, but i dont understand how stating that i dont want her to take photos is controlling? Please explain.

As we are NC its not technically an issue, but lets just say we rewind the clock. How do or would others handle this. After the park incident, no i never let her take them out alone again. I never did directly state that it was why neither, and she never directly said she knew, just pouted sulked and acted generally martyrish.

But in the house, its harder. I cant physically be there all the time - need to make meals/tend to baby etc (and no, the queen  doesnt help  lol)  I can see now the only consequences were what i took ie bad feelings from myself, and from husband as we both agree with not taking the photos, but never once did i say, if you persist you may not visit or whatever... .

Oh the benefit of the retroscope! This is helpful, thanks

Hi Gettingthere. I'm so glad you posted and we can explore more. I have to run now but will reply in more depth later. I love the idea of the "retroscope," LOL! The thing about control is a great topic in relation to boundaries, and I'm not using that word in the way we often do casually to mean pushy or demanding or anything like that. More later... .

B&W

BlackandWhite Thank you for this interesting workshop

You said::

Boundaries as rules for other people don't work. Other people, especially boundary busters, break rules.

IMO all of us if we get the chance we can be boundary busters

Who breaks our boundary doesn't do the same thing with other people who keep their boundaries

IMO Boundaries as rules work if they are followed by actions

Gettingthere You asked for others opinion and i like to give mine since i can see for the others better than i see for myself lol

If you rewind time you need to believe that:

You did all what you can or have to do with your mom

You gave her all chances

Most boundaries busters are close people to us could be father mother husband son or daughter... .

So don't fall in the FOG(Fear, Obligation, Guilt)

Tell her when taking pictures will be ok (it could be once a year)

Tell her that enjoying times at the expense of the others' well being is full of selfishness this is not what the mothers are committed to be

We really want you to be with us have fun and enjoy the time together, we love you

Taking pictures is causing an issue if you chose to keep taking them it is like telling us you care for the pictures more than for you care for us

We do love you but you are hurting our love

We need you as a caring mother and if you keep showing us that you care more for material things don't be surprise when you find us not wanting you to be with us

Is this make any sens?

Let's get back to the picture taking example, but I wanted to have this information in as a reference... .

Boundaries and Values in Relationships: Scenarios

Our working definition:

Boundaries = your value system in action; they contain and protect your sense of who you are and give you a stable platform from which to relate to others. How does that look in action in different types of relationships? Let's examine some scenarios.

Both Have Good Boundaries

If two people have a healthy sense of self and good self-esteem, and are clear about their values, serious boundary issues aren't too likely to arise. As they get to know each other, there will be exploration and some testing, but they are likely to work things out without a great deal of conflict.

Example: You make a new friend at work. Friend is very warm, but prefers to keep social interactions to a bit of chit chat at work, some lunches, and perhaps a quick happy hour now and then. Friend keeps weekends private and for the family. Although you feel you would enjoy getting to know friend's family and vice versa, you accept this limit. You have other friends you see on weekends and you value the friendship even if it's not as close as it could be.

As LVS pointed out, all of us--as human beings--are boundary busters sometimes. Let's say you have a great boss, but from time to time, he asks too many questions about your personal life for your comfort. Or your neighbor, who is so helpful and nice, peers into your windows when you have visitors. Or you feel a bit shut out of your spouse's life when he/she takes on a new project, and you find yourself reading his/her e-mail when it's left open on the desktop. All of those are boundary busting acts that need some attention; if both parties have good boundaries generally, however, they can usually be discussed or handled in a calm way using some communication techniques we can talk about more later in this workshop.

One Has Good Boundaries, One Has Poor Boundaries

If a person with a healthy sense of self and good self-esteem and a clear sense of personal values encounters someone with none of those qualities, such as a person with BPD, some boundary issues are likely to arise, but be resolved fairly quickly.

Example: A young man meets a young woman and they begin to date. She's extremely taken with him and gives him a lot of attention. He feels flattered at first, and protective when she starts having a hard time with her roommate. However, when she pushes to move in with him as a way to solve her problem and for them to get closer, he realizes he needs to slow things down. He likes this woman, but he knows he's not ready to live together and he's not afraid of being alone. He lets her know, kindly, and she breaks things off with him in a rage. Although he's upset at the turn the relationship took and is bewildered by the intensity, he's generally relieved and senses he's avoided worse by nipping things in the bud.

Of course it's quite possible that a relationship with a person with BPD erodes one's good boundaries (self-esteem, sense of self, values) over time. It's also possible to develop a good sense of these qualities but have an "exception" in your life, such as your BPD sister or boyfriend. The exception is a clue that the the self-esteem, sense of self, and values aren't as firm as they might be. Your values should be consistent across your life, even if applied in different ways in different realms (at work versus with your children, for example).

Both Have Poor Boundaries

In these relationships, there is a degree of enmeshment, with poor delineation between one person and another. One or more of the examples of poor boundaries that Phillip Mitchell describes in Boundaries: Tools of Respect (https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a120.htm) may be present:

• A poor sense or disregard of personal space—not sensing or knowing how physically close you should be in relation to another



• Disregarding your personal values in order to please others



• Ignoring another person’s display of poor boundaries or invasion of your boundaries



• Sharing too much personal information with someone you don’t know well [Or with someone you know well cannot be trusted not to do harm with personal information.]



• Accepting food, gifts, touch, or sex that you don’t want



• Falling in love with a new acquaintance



• Excessive giving or taking



• Obsessive thinking about another person



• Letting others describe you or your reality



• Acting on the first sexual impulse



• Expecting others to anticipate and fulfill your needs



• Being sexual for your partner and not yourself



• Manipulative behaviors, abusive behaviors, etc.



• Disregarding your personal values in order to please others

Example: An adult child with a BPD father has moved her elderly father into her home in order to care for him. She feels completely responsible for her father's happiness, and rage and frustration at her father's continual complaints despite making enormous sacrifices to help him. She has remodeled her home to give her father comfortable quarters, let go of the hobbies and friends she used to enjoy in order to transport her father to all of his medical appointments, and has accepted her father's vision of her as incompetent, selfish, and ungrateful, while experiencing at the same time tremendous resentment that her sacrifices are not recognized. The two share a closely entwined life marked by hostility, silent treatments, and wounded feelings.

Both Have Poor Boundaries, But One is Getting Better

This is the situation many of our members here and the focus of this workshop.  :)

So back to the picture taking example Gettingthere provided!

Quote from Gettingthere


From what you've said about your mother, she was a clear boundary buster. (This analysis is not to get on your case, but to learn. You were obviously doing the best you could and we all have experienced similar situations here.  x) Using the "retroscope": At the time when you were trying to get her to stop taking pictures, you would say "I don't want pictures taken" but act in ways that allowed the pictures to be taken, as we talked about earlier. There was a degree of magical thinking in it... .if I express my wish (which I know, I know! is brave enough when you have a BPD parent) then my wish will go out into the world and make my mother stop... .my wish will control her bad behavior. In fact, it's possible that you may even have hoped your expressed wish would change her as a person, help her evolve from someone who would disrespect your wishes to someone else, to a mother who is sensitive to you, your values, and your point of view. (Speculating. So many of us long to see our mothers, husbands, brothers, sisters, lovers, etc. change in this way.)

That's what I meant by "I believe I can control another person." Perhaps it's better stated as "I believe I can control another person with my wish alone."

By not backing up your words with sufficient actions within your own control, you undercut your stated value and gave your mom room to bust the boundary. You seem to have been in the position I describe in the scenarios above as someone who had poor boundaries (didn't even used to say anything) but was getting better. So you were trying to figure it out, testing different things, and were able to limit some of the behavior but not stop it.  x

Here's what LVS has to say about how you might redo if you were able to go back in time. What are your thoughts, and those of other participants, on this approach to boundary communications?


B&W

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

My relationship my parents became incredibly strained when they became a "package deal." The combination of the two together was like bleach & ammonia to me--extremely toxic.

Question: How what values did it violate? 

I missed having a unique, individual relationship with each one.

I resented the constant triangulation & drama that surrounded us every time we got together.

Question: What did you do?   

I requested to see them individually.

At first I was told no.  We went for over a year seeing each other only in groups on special occasions (so rarely.)

Question: What happened?

As time passed I was asked to resume a more frequent relationship.

I agreed, as long as I can see them separately.


Question: How do you feel about it?

I'm glad I stuck to my boundary.  I'm able to see them individually & on their best behavior (& not just bringing out the worst in each other.) I'm also more relaxed & enjoy them both much better than I did before  :)

Thanks for the excellent workshop, B&W  |iiii   |iiii   |iiii

Hi BPDfamfan, hats off to you! That's really impressive that not only you stuck to your boundary, but that your also getting more enjoyable time with your parents  |iiii

Yes B&W, i think we can clearly say my mother is a boundary buster!  I had heard of magical thinking, but never applied it in this context, which is really insightful, thanks.  Yes, in some ways i think i did think expressing a wish would make her transform into a sensitive being! In part if you try and point things out to her she gets defensive and victim like "i didnt know" so  i think part of me thinks well i've told you, so now you know to be sensitivie!  ;p


LVF, you are not alone, ther peoples situations are clearer to me than my own  lol

Thankyou for taking the time to make suggestions. As i was reading through your suggestions, it struck me how closely this is entwined with being assertive - something until recently i have never been with my mother, its very much a capitol F in FOG for me.

The not taking photos is a boundary for me, so i wouldnt suggest once a year. Also i know that with this particular boundary buster, she would take it as a green light to ignore the boundary anyway.

LVF i think what you have written is "adult" and great for healthy people. My only concern is that if i were to approach it like this with my mother then she would percieve it as nothing but confrontation and critisim. I dont know if thats just her or BPD... .saying her actions were selfish (i'm running to take cover at the thought of it!... .)

B&W you also said "If two people have a healthy sense of self and good self-esteem, and are clear about their values, serious boundary issues aren't too likely to arise"

I agree wholeheartedly with this, and know that i didnmt even think nor feel capable of setting boundaries until i had worked on self esteem and self worth, which again ties into needing self esteem to be able to be assertive... .

I am aware that my example is dominating this workshop and i apologise profusely to the other participants   

When dealing with boundary busters, it can sometimes feel that everything you say is going to be "busted" and its exhausting constantly stipulatng boundaries and consequences. How have other poeple handeled this?

Gettingthere, you're not dominating, you're a case study!  :) Thank you for that.

BPDfamfan, let me add my  |iiii  as well!


BPDfamfan provides a good example of how to handle this. She determined that seeing her parents together led to trouble. BPDfamfan, I might attempt to restate your values a bit (maybe incorrectly... .please do correct/comment) to positive versions:


Having a unique, individual relationship with each of my parents is important to me.

Having interactions that are free of drama and triangulation is important to me.

Again, boundaries = your value system in action.

BPDfamfan put those values into action by creating circumstances in which her values could be expressed. Her parents might have refused to cooperate, in which case she would have to weigh again her values, particularly how important a relationship was with them if her basic needs for the relationship could not be met.

Getting back to Gettingthere's question, which is one of the key questions in this topic: When dealing with boundary busters, it can sometimes feel that everything you say is going to be "busted" and its exhausting constantly stipulatng boundaries and consequences--how do you handle? Let's try an exercise.

Which of the following are under your control*?

*Assume for the sake of this exercise no physical coercion, which we've seen in some of these examples and certainly happens. Physical abuse calls for intervention from authorities and rapid action to protect yourself.

1. Stopping someone else's behavior.

2. Leaving a situation.

3. Stating your needs calmly.

4. Determining under what circumstances you will see someone (barring accidental run ins).

5. Getting someone to respect you.

6. Getting someone to stop "X" (whatever X might be).

7. Clarifying your values.

8. Accepting the consequences of implementing a boundary, including another person's anger or decision to end the relationship.

9. Getting someone to love you in the way you deserved to be loved.

10. Finding ways to get your needs met.

11. Changing someone else's mind.

12. Hanging up the phone, stopping texting, etc.

13. Ending the intimate part of a relationship in which you share your inner self.

14. Inviting someone into your home.

15. Accepting a gift.

16. Getting someone to stop trying to enter your home or give you a gift.

17. Getting someone to honor your privacy as you see it.

18. Making your private thoughts and things inaccessible to someone you don't trust.

Thanks for the  |iiii s

I just started formally working on boundaries after joining this site, and the example with my parents is the first success I can think of.  Of course our relationships aren't perfect, but they are easier to deal with one-on-one.

I still have SO MUCH learning and work to do when it comes to boundaries!

B&W you restated my values perfectly:

Having a unique, individual relationship with each of my parents is important to me.

Having interactions that are free of drama and triangulation is important to me.

Thanks to everyone participating in this workshop  |iiii

I'll try the exercise

:)=under my control

Getting back to Gettingthere's question, which is one of the key questions in this topic: When dealing with boundary busters, it can sometimes feel that everything you say is going to be "busted" and its exhausting constantly stipulatng boundaries and consequences--how do you handle? Let's try an exercise.

Which of the following are under your control*?

*Assume for the sake of this exercise no physical coercion, which we've seen in some of these examples and certainly happens. Physical abuse calls for intervention from authorities and rapid action to protect yourself.

1. Stopping someone else's behavior.

:) 2. Leaving a situation.

:) 3. Stating your needs calmly.

:) 4. Determining under what circumstances you will see someone (barring accidental run ins).

5. Getting someone to respect you.

6. Getting someone to stop "X" (whatever X might be).

:) 7. Clarifying your values.

:) 8. Accepting the consequences of implementing a boundary, including another person's anger or decision to end the relationship.

9. Getting someone to love you in the way you deserved to be loved.

:) 10. Finding ways to get your needs met.

11. Changing someone else's mind.

:) 12. Hanging up the phone, stopping texting, etc.

:) 13. Ending the intimate part of a relationship in which you share your inner self.

:) 14. Inviting someone into your home.

:) 15. Accepting a gift.

16. Getting someone to stop trying to enter your home or give you a gift.

17. Getting someone to honor your privacy as you see it.

:) 18. Making your private thoughts and things inaccessible to someone you don't trust.

All of us had in our lives similar stories the hero and scenario could be little bit different. lol. Studying yours is going to give insight to all of us and it is going to be more helpful when we hear more suggestions even from people who are reading and didn't post yet... .


We all who had poor boundaries in the past were living the

FOG. Increasing our self worth and self esteem increases as well our self confidence and gives us more power to fight the FOG even more than people with healthy boundaries because we were hurt a lot in the past and we are the best who know what it feels like... .


In fact it's my D18 who inspired me for this suggestion

(she has healthy boundaries)she is in love with a guy but my uBPDH doesn't want him for her and each time they have conversation he tries to show her that she needs to leave that guy.

In one conversation he said you are going to lose all the family support and love for keeping this guy you need to chose between me or him

She said "I love the whole family and i love my dad

they should love me unconditionally for who i am if you are going to delete me from your life for this reason then it is your choice not mine i am going to keep loving all of you no matter what your choices in life are going to be, it is true your decision is going to hurt me but this is your choice and i respect it ".

She impressed me in my whole life i wasn't able to think in this assertive and firm way wow

And it worked but as you said Gettingthere with BPDers or boundaries busters we need to stay on our guard. It's trues this is exhausting but also saying these words is, as B&W described it, the lock but we always need to stay on our guard and not let go things to keep our front and back door locked lol

In my H mind he lost a battle but didn't lose the war and for sure he is going to find another way and change tactic and try again... .

We need always to remember that BPDers also have weakness points like the fear of abandonment so they will always fight to bust our boundaries because from their experience with us they know they can because we use always to keep our back gate open lol but when they feel they are going to lose us they will step back... .(they need to not feel we have any fear)

This is a great conversation - and chalk full of many useful tools.  What I might add is a starting point.  Well, perhaps it was my starting point.  For some reason, until I actually embraced this starting point, I ended up wheel spinning ... .thinking I was making progress, but actually it was more like one step forward, two back. 

The starting point for me was inspired by reading.  I was quite knowledgable about codependency, and one day was re-reading some writings on the topic.  The words I read, initially, bugged me.  I read something like, " ... .being codependent is being controlling of others ... ."  Now this irked me, as I really didn't see it that way, but I kept reading.

The author (who was Beattie, I think) went on to say, (paraphrased) people have the right to be as horrible and mistaken as they are.  The "art" of recovery from codependency is learning to get out of the way.

For some reason, it finally clicked to me.  I had been banging my head against this wall of trying to make the relationship into what I wanted it to be for years.  Thus, I violated the boundaries of my partner (by trying to get him to be the "best version" of him I wanted/needed ... .to no avail, btw), failed to examine my values and ultimately failed to declare any meaningful boundaries for myself.

So, it was this starting point - recognizing that the "off" behavior of others was not my cue to start acting and trying to change things, but actually to GET OUT OF THE WAY.  That realization, and the practice of getting out of the way, gave me time to think, time to formulate the "me" of things. 

Hopefully that makes sense, and is somewhat relevant to the conversation.

Best,

mollyd

That is really impressive LVF, and well done you raising her with clear boundaries and assertiveness!  |iiii

Getting back to the control exercise, the ones i think that we have control over ( ) are

1. Stopping someone else's behavior.

2. Leaving a situation.

  3. Stating your needs calmly.

4. Determining under what circumstances you will see someone (barring accidental run ins).

5. Getting someone to respect you.

6. Getting someone to stop "X" (whatever X might be).

7. Clarifying your values.

8. Accepting the consequences of implementing a boundary, including another person's anger or decision to end the relationship.

9. Getting someone to love you in the way you deserved to be loved.

10. Finding ways to get your needs met.

11. Changing someone else's mind.

12. Hanging up the phone, stopping texting, etc.

13. Ending the intimate part of a relationship in which you share your inner self.

14. Inviting someone into your home.

15. Accepting a gift.

16. Getting someone to stop trying to enter your home or give you a gift.

17. Getting someone to honor your privacy as you see it.

18. Making your private thoughts and things inaccessible to someone you don't trust.



I struggle with 6). I know that you cant stop someone doing 'X' but the wishful thinking bit can be very strong for me. eg DH dont do that cos it will result in x/y/z... .bit i am working on this as i think this stops me doing rescuer bit and stepping onto the drama triangle

And 8... .when i know the consequences are going to be someones anger... .

Which of the following are under my control?  { :) } for what is under my control and  {  } for what is 50% under control and { ? } unclear for me

 1. Stopping someone else's behavior.

:) 2. Leaving a situation.

:) 3. Stating your needs calmly.

 4. Determining under what circumstances you will see someone (barring accidental run ins).

:) 5. Getting someone to respect you.

 6. Getting someone to stop "X" (whatever X might be).

:) 7. Clarifying your values.

  8. Accepting the consequences of implementing a boundary, including another person's anger or decision to end the relationship.

 9. Getting someone to love you in the way you deserved to be loved.

:) 10. Finding ways to get your needs met.

11. Changing someone else's mind.

  12. Hanging up the phone, stopping texting, etc.

? 13. Ending the intimate part of a relationship in which you share your inner self.

:) 14. Inviting someone into your home.

:) 15. Accepting a gift.

:) 16. Getting someone to stop trying to enter your home or give you a gift.

:) 17. Getting someone to honor your privacy as you see it.

:) 18. Making your private thoughts and things inaccessible to someone you don't trust.

for number 11 I think i can't change somebody's mind because i can't controle the way they think but i can sometimes control the way they behave with me

but i believe we can't change anyone if they don't want to change but we can change ourselves and actions so i do what i need to do and if they don't change what they suppose to change i go to number 2 leave a situation :)

WOW i can see how much i got improved it is impressing i am so proud of my accomplishment in the past i was only having under my control number 3 10 18 hmmm pity on me

By the way Gettingthere i am LVS not LVF lol 

Thank you LVS, BPDfamfan, mollyd, and Gettingthere for your recent contributions.

Mollyd, I'd be interested to hear more about your thoughts on "getting out of the way," if you have time to comment?

Thanks for participating the exercise. Most of the answers seem pretty aligned. LVS, could you explain a bit more about the items you marked as 50% under your control?

For anyone: What do you take from the exercise about boundaries and control?

B&W

I've been thinking about this ever since I read it & it has already helped be in a few minor situations! 

I'd also like to hear more, Molly!  |iiii

  1. Stopping someone else's behavior.

Still working on finding the right consequences at the right time

 4. Determining under what circumstances you will see someone (barring accidental run ins).

Sometimes i still fall in the obligation and find it hard to say no by putting the others ahead



 6. Getting someone to stop "X" (whatever X might be).

All what i need increase more my self confidence

  8. Accepting the consequences of implementing a boundary, including another person's anger or decision to end the relationship.

I am still working on that sometimes the FOG take over and makes me give more chances



 9. Getting someone to love you in the way you deserved to be loved.

I did so much progress in the area of codependency but still working to keep the back gate closed i am working to not care of how the others see me it is how i see myself i don't need to be the others pleasant i don't need them to love me for what i can give but for who i am

  12. Hanging up the phone, stopping texting, etc.



Fear of making someone angry or mad at me or lose this someone

I meant by 50% that i am still working on them It is about finding the right Consequences

and all what I need Build more my Self Confidence and liberate more myself of the Fear, Obligation, and Guilt

And i just remembered The emotional side play a big role of keeping me struggling

So it is all about us not about controlling the others when we change the situations will changepeople might change too  and what doesn't fit we don't need to keep hammering it we need to be brave to let go

B & W, you asked:

How did you get from Point A (not feeling like a worthy person who does not deserve to to invaded) to Point B (feeling firm in your values and self-worth and acting accordingly, including saying no in a reasonable way)?

Well, as a teen I was afraid to assert myself. I felt incompetent and incapable. Then, as a young adult (with time out of the home of origin), I began to gain a sense of competence and capacity ... .and I went from being afraid to assert myself to being somewhat aggressive if I felt that someone might be taking advantage of me or dismissing me. Don't get me wrong, I was not always aggressive, just in situations where I felt a little scared or intimidated. My perception that someone was trying to intimidate me would make me angry.

In the past 5-10 years, I have been working on being confident and not feeling threatened just because I am in a challenging situation. Usually the challenging situations are interpersonal in nature --- sit me down to do something intellectual/academic/professional in nature and I am OK but the interpersonal situations sometimes trip me up. I realize that the walls of self-defense go up when I feel intimidated or unsure. In fact, my husband has used those very words, "the walls go up." So in working to deal with my inner insecurity, I have also worked to find a balance between passivity and aggression. I am a small woman and for years it did not occur to me that I was ripping grown men to shreds with my words ... .I didn't intend to hurt anybody, I just wanted to take up for myself. Emotional dysregulation.

Probably if somebody with knowledge of BPD saw me in a dysregulated moment a couple of decades ago, they would have thought I had BPD. But I am fortunate in that I can own up to my mistakes, I can see other people's perspectives, I have a core sense of self. I think that those things have enabled me to get better and to teach myself to regulate my own emotions. I was able to see that I was hurting others by overreacting when I felt threatened. I could see that often I felt threatened when there was no threat.

Something that is still difficult for me to tolerate is when I feel others are blowing me off. It seems a lot of people in my immediate and extended family tend to laugh when they are uncomfortable or when they are wrong about something. This makes me feel very disrespected. I am working hard now to teach myself that this is not my problem. But it is an example of how family systems make each other's problems worse. I think laughing is an inappropriate response to conflict or disagreement, and I do honestly think it is disrespectful. But it is not my problem. It is the problem of people whose automatic response is to laugh in other people's faces. I do not have to let it be my problem.

SO, my answer is that it has been a long journey from Point A to Point B and I still have a ways to go to really be anchored at Point B. Part of the journey has been disengaging from people that don't respect boundaries. This includes my parents. I never went NC with them but reduced contact and reduced the amount of emotional material I would share with them. Honestly I have gotten to the point now where I will take care of my mother and will respect her as the person fulfilling that role in my life --- but I find her (can I say it?) --- boring. It is so boring for someone to be so negative all the time, to constantly pick at minute details and criticize, to pick one grandchild as the golden child (and you know what she's going to say about him at all times), and to constantly criticize the others and try to get me anxious about them. You know what she's going to say about any subject. She doesn't grow or change or get better, she just stays the same.

My parents aren't the only ones I disengaged from. The advent of Facebook, and the accompanying ability to put the faces of most of my friends from high school through the present all on one page, made me realize that many of my earlier friendships were just recapitulations of my relationships with my parents. I ignored really interesting people that might have been a little needy, and pursued rejecting people that were not really interested in my friendship. Some of those people are on my Facebook Friends list, but I notice that with every passing day I am less and less inclined to send them a message. I am blessed that some of the more interesting people have stuck with me and stayed in my life, and I am enjoying them as well as brand-new friendships like never before!

Thank you for sharing Jemima, very eloquently put.

... .and LVS - sorry typing error  lol

Personally i know my danger is that in trying to keep my boundaries, i have a tendancy if left unchecked to become controlling (as done to me through childhood   ) Does anyone else have this/tips on managing?  As i try and improve myself, i do feel that i have to "step outside of myself" all the time, because my autopilot is not a healthy position if that makes sense. Then i become v critical of myself when that doesnt happen - like last few days. sleep deprived (baby ill) and i know i have been far more reactive than thinking and reacted in ways that i wish i hadnt. i guess its just continual reinforcement... .onwards and upwards   

Maybe an extension of the exercise of this thread would be to post the question to everyone ... .with the best boundaries, a sense of personal integrity and honor to yourself and others ... .what does "getting out of the way" mean in your relationship(s)?

For me, once I read the statement in the codependency book, the actions of "getting out of the way" were increasingly clear.  Earlier in my journey with my exNPD spouse, I had a tendency to try and alter my ex spouse (his thoughts, behaviors, actions).  I'd do so in the most seemingly loving way - pleading my case that his behavior was beneath him and damaging to our relationship.  Now, there is some logic to making such a plea, once in a while.  Say for example your spouse smokes cigarettes, and you are truly concerned... .But, as a regular course of action, who am I to determine what is beneath him?  Who am I to determine what someone else is capable of or should do?  In reality, I was just vying for what I wanted ... .I knew if he didn't change, our relationship was doomed. I am allowed to determine the best "me", advocate for the best life for me ... .but, not at the cost of trying to change someone else.

Getting out of the way was "allowing" my spouse to be who he truly was, without my interference.  Now, the obvious problem with that scenario was if/when I got out of the way, the inevitable result was the doom of our "relationship". 

My ex had the right to do what he wanted ... .sexually

to lie

to not manage his emotions

to not want to be married to me

to pursue his addictions over sobriety

to say, think and do things I perceived as unwise, self destructive, or damaging to our marriage

When I got out of the way - without trying to interfere - he made choices that I could not tolerate in a marriage.

I had the right to decide what I would do given his behaviors - and I got the best view of his true choices, only when I stopped trying to interfere.

So our marriage ended, which is not what I wanted, at all.  Still, I needed to get out of the way.  The only way for us to have had a truly viable marriage would have been for me to get out of the way, and for him to have made different choices (which he certainly could have done - but didn't - his right to choose the course of his life).

Now I can apply this logic to the relationship with my BPD bio mom.  She, too, has the right to abandon me, to fail in every view I have as a mother.  It is not for me to change her ... .I've tried to no avail.  When I get out of the way, and accept her as she is, I can live without the burden of having to "fix" someone else, so that I can be OK.  Instead, I can work at being OK in spite of someone else.  I hope that is helpful.

Warmly,

Molly

Something that's interesting to me, is just how much we fail to see how our thoughts/actions are controlling.  This exercise has really been an eye opener for me.  Most of us have already accepted that boundaries are not only FOR us, but done by us… we cannot simply expect someone to respect them – we must protect them.

In my opinion, one of the most difficult things for people who have been raised by BPD’s or in a long term BPD relationship is understanding that a person’s reaction, thoughts, feelings, etc. when we are acting according to our values, are completely beyond our control.  Haven’t we all been programmed to anticipate the BPD’s response/feelings?

I think bringing in the idea of our personal value system into the mix, makes this much clearer.   I would like further clarification on the idea of “values.”  I think this is the part that’s still tripping me up.  When I think of the word values, I think of the word morals.    This is what I keep going back to, I’m confused by the two.

Aren’t we taught our values and morals?  Or are they simply the things we value most?  Things that we personally want for ourselves.  And if so, aren’t we in danger of having values that are – in and of themselves – controlling?  The idea of “values” themselves is unclear to me.

So many people seem to have a different idea of what values were violated.  One person stated their privacy was violated, another that their fidelity and trust were violated, and yet another person said that it violated their feelings/wishes.

So WHAT really is a value?

For example:

(I don’t have children, but if I did…)

Lets say, I don’t want my mother to be alone with my child.  Is that a value?  Or is that just a wish (like not wanting photos taken).

I don’t want my child to be alone with my mother BECAUSE I don’t want her to break his/her spirit like she did mine.  Is that a value, or is it still a wish?

I cherish my child, and how vowed to protect him/her.  Is THAT a value?


I was not taught values.  I was taught religious and social 'morals,' but to have our own values would require our own identity, right?  

In the way I use the term "values" ... .it means literally something we VALUE. Technically (in the marketplace) we can put either a high value or a low value on something. However, in the "intangible" world of "personal values" it generally means "something we place a HIGH value on."

Values can be implicit, in that we act according to them without consciously understanding what we are doing. I think "morality" is a more conscious process and it is more explicitly stated by our social systems --- what you think is OK regarding sexuality, regarding honesty and fairness, regarding your obligations to others.

For example, I stated above that I value my personal privacy, and to me that means my ability to tell or not to tell someone about things, my ability to make independent decisions without interference, my ability to put more or less psychic space between myself and another person. I would not label that "morality" because there are no explicit "rules" about personal privacy that I know of.

Maybe we are mincing words, but I think values go beyond an explicit moral code (the basic "rules" that a whole society or a small segment of society has codified to broadly define what is acceptable behavior) to the elements that each individual person thinks is important to maintain a meaningful life.

Oh and I also wanted to comment on the question if not leaving your child alone with your mother would be a value. I think the value is: I value my child's wellbeing and I recognize that being around my mother is destructive to my child. Therefore, since I cannot ensure that my mother will be nurturing rather than destructive, I must not leave my child alone with her.

A boundary is a limit set based on what you think is important. Where most of us trip up is, we think that once a boundary is set the work is done. No, we must defend our boundaries. Sad to think of it this way, but with personality-disordered people it is like war. We are the city at peace with big walls around us (our boundaries), and they are the army marching in to destroy our peace and take our stuff and put our citizenry into slavery. We have the walls (boundaries) but if we don't defend them they will just march in through the open front gate or poke holes in the walls and pour in.

I think the problem with most of us is, we were taught not to put a high VALUE on ourselves in so many ways. Even when we had appropriate boundaries, if somebody knew the password (like if they were our parents or resembled our parents), we would just open the gate and let them past our boundaries. Often we have acted as if we thought they had a right to enslave us and our children, and to take our stuff for their own use!

It's hard when you have just unconsciously and without understanding swung open the door to boundary-crashers and you have to totally re-build the way you deal with them.

Thank you BPDfamfan, LVS, Jemima, gettingthere, Mollyd, and MyNascence for your continued wonderful contributions to this workshop. So much to talk about!

Jemima said:


MyNascence said:


Yes, exactly. I'm really glad you're circling in on this, MyNascence. Really important issue. I'm going to get to it in a minute.

We all have values--things we value and act to protect, as Jemima succinctly put it.

Sometimes we act to protect the things we say we value or believe intellectually that we value (our privacy, for example). We're consistent all the way through, from our stated beliefs to our inner core of feelings to our explicit actions.

Sometimes we act to protect things that we may not even be aware are among our strongest values and may be quite harmful (our magical thinking that we can "make" someone else respect us; someone else's ability to abuse us).

What, how can I say one of our values is that someone else should be able to abuse us? Because we reveal our values by our actions. Remember boundaries = our value system in action. If we allow abuse by making it easy, not speaking up, not "getting out of the way" as mollyd put it, then we are stating as loudly as if we grabbed a bullhorn and started shouting that one of our values is "this person (or other people) get to abuse me because I am not worth protecting (or their feelings are more important than mine, or if I don't let them then they will fall apart and I will feel terrible, or... .)."

When we don't have a strong personal value system that goes all the way through from what we say through what we feel to how we act, we get confused. We get confused about ourselves, we brandish the lock and say "Why don't you respect me?" We get confused when others behave in one way and explicitly say things that are contradictory. "I love you" while hitting. "I believe in fidelity and don't you cheat on me" while cheating. "God/the law/parental authority/the boss/the guru/our culture/our family teaches us X" while doing Y.

MyNascence, you said you were taught religious and social "morals." Did those morals go all the way through the people teaching them? Did their actions, words, attitudes, and feelings towards life spring consistently and flow naturally from those stated morals? If they did, you were lucky, because probably the world makes a lot of sense to you and you have a similar consistent set of values that goes all the way through you. If they didn't, or if they did but you fundamentally disagreed with them, then you are left with the painful but crucial task of developing your own consistent values that seamlessly knit together actions, words, attitudes, feelings. (Not to say that we can't have some contradictions to work out or need to balance values at times. We can also change, thank goodness. That's all part of being an evolving human. But having a basic alignment of all of this is indeed, as you put it, having your own identity.)

You have values, what you may need to do is surface them.

What do your actions actually protect? Those are your values.

What do you WANT your actions to protect? Those are your goal values.

Jemima described her journey from A to B.

This is the journey:

A (current values, some perhaps not even conscious to you) to B (goal values, consistent all the way through you, so that their expression is natural in the form of your boundaries).

An example. MyNascence said:


The way it's expressed, it's a wish. The values beneath it might be something like one or more of these:

• As a parent, I make decisions about who my child spends time with.



• I act to protect my child's safety.



• My responsibility as a parent includes shielding my child from people I don't feel to be safe, even if they are close relatives.



• I am willing to anger an important person in order to protect my child, even if I'm afraid.



• Honoring my mother for me includes recognizing her limitations, including that having her alone with my child is not safe.

We might want to spend some time examining what makes a value statement. There's a lot to discuss.  :)

Interesting.  Thank you both for your reply.

What I'm understanding, then is that defended boundaries are an outward reflection of your personal value system?

Does that work for other behaviors?

So if we consistently, say... .allow people to use, abuse, disrespect and harm us... .even though we SAY we value ourselves, we really don't?

If we are selfish in a relationship, and want only our needs and wants fulfilled without taking the time and energy to fulfill the needs/desires of the other person, does that then say that we do not (currently) value that other person?

I had a difficult time participating in this workshop due to my unclear view of my values, but understand better now. 

I will stop threadjacking now. :)

Yes, yes, and yes!

Not threadjacking. This is the absolute core of this topic.  :)

Thank you for all the participant it is adding more value to this workshop  :)


What you said is absolutely true working on my PRIORITIES was the starting point to save my boundaries because my main weakness was my obsession to care for the others well being AFRAID to make someone else mad or angry or upset but it was ok and no problem if this other one do upset me hurt me or... .I can manage my self and forgive them but i can't forgive myself if i accidentally hurt someone and the feeling of GUILT will accompany me for a big while and will spend so much time thinking how to apologize for what i ACCIDENTALLY did forgetting the tons of hurt done in purpose from that other person

I personally value openness and honesty especially in my online interactions.

When I was dating BPDx he was unwilling to be open abut his actions online. To be specific, he had asked me to be monogamous to him but refused to publicly post our relationship on his facebook. He didn't want anyone to know.

Now I have a boundary for this. I do not get serous with anyone who feels the need for secrecy about our involvement. At the time I don't know how I could have made this boundary, though, without just leaving him.


I have trouble understanding how to use boundaries regarding neglect or silwnt treatments.it seems like the only boundary I can make to stop neglect is to leave. Boundaries aboutneglect feel more like ultimatums. I don't know how to apply them.


For example; my BPDx got angry that I was late so he refused to answer the phone.

what could I do? I tried to call a few times then gave up. When he finally called me he was even more angry that I gave up. He invites me over then ignores me.when I pointed out I didn't want to be ignored he. Said I was crazy and everything was fine.

Asking for what I wanted would get him even more withdrawn.

How do you use a boundary to keep your self valued when a partner or family member is withholding?

boarding after the boat has left the dock here.

while in the confused state early on... .before my d12 was dx/emerging BPD i was in a pitiful way!  i had no idea what was up!  i was being abused by my own child.  when i finally realized that in those terms is when things began to turn around for ME.  i worked on myself in hopes that i could reclaim my sanity, get some peace, and that in some way would help my daughter.  and that is exactly what happened.

i had to ask myself first and foremost what do i need? then... .how can i get my needs met?  the answers were simple... .the process was not.  first i had to get my priorities in order... .being a spiritual being first and foremost i focused on what God wanted for me... .did He want me to be miserable, confused, scared?  no ... .He wants me to be at peace and be kind... .but how do i get there?  focus on Him.  treat others with love and kindness... .even if they are abusive... .protect yourself... .so i began to set boundaries... .based on what God wants for me.  i started w/my personal safety and then my d's personal safety... .so i set those boundaries... .what happened next is miraculous!  i found my personal power again.  i began to see what i needed to do and how i needed to do it because i had clarity and the fog was gone.  i began to set more boundaries... .well thought out... .totally committed to.  i no longer subjected myself to abuse... .i would just leave and not return home until my d had calmed down.  the boundaries do not change no matter what!  even if the consequences cost me too... .they are just as important as the boundary that was set.  does this mean that setting the boundary will change another persons behavior?  NO!  does that make the boundary useless or wrong?  NO  does that mean the boundary needs to change? NO  the power is in knowing fully that i deserve to be safe, i deserve to be respected, that i deserve to have peace in my life ... .and it is up to me to make sure i do everything i can to get what i deserve.  i think that in some cases... .people who do not set boundaries for themselves suffer from a low self image... .in my case i just suffered and was in so much pain and confusion early on that i didn't know what to do... .this is my child. 

the second priority is SELF.  take care of self before others... .be healthy yourself so that you can help others and do what you can.


then in comes others.  i can only present opportunities for others to change... .i cannot orchestrate the outcome... .i can request... .without consequences... .and when it comes to boundaries... .i can demand ... .with consequences.  when i request i must let go of expectations as much as possible.  for example... i can request that my d get up and ready to catch the bus for school... .if she chooses not to then i let her own the consequences of that... .i don't beg her to get up... .i ask her "are you going to school today?"  if she says "yes" i tell her how long until the bus arrives.  if she doesn't get up in time to catch the bus i don't drive her.  when the school calls to ask why she is not there i tell them the truth and if they want her to come to school they can talk to her and send the truancy officer to come get her.  i will not fight w/her about her make up work or homework.  the school has agreed to work with her in an after school program to get those tasks completed.  it is not my homework.  i didn't miss the bus. i didn't skip assignments.  on and on it goes... .without boundaries and the clarity to not enable, rescue from consequences, or own another's' responsibilities... .to let go of any idea that i can control another person it is so easy to get lost once more in the confusing fog of having a relationship w/a pwBPD.

so in the end boundaries give me:

a sense of personal power and control over my own life

a sense of peace

clarity on what, how, how much, and when i do or do not do things

and hope that one day... .through Gods' grace and a healthy environment to live in w/parents who set a healthy example... .my BPD14 will set healthy boundaries for herself and know this same peace.

lbjnltx

lbjnltx |iiii   |iiii   |iiii  

This what i am working on now Thank you for sharing  x

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

I was ill with high white blood cell count and a mysterious malady per doctor in ER.  BPDh caused me emotional pain in addition to the fear I was already feeling, by accusing me of being sick because I’d had an affair with someone (men in suits who looked good at my office).

Question: How what values did it violate?

To be treated with respect.

To acknowledge I’m trustworthy.

That I deserved compassion.

Question: What did you do?

At the time I had to focus on my health and what I had contracted. It was severe food poisoning and you do not want that kind because it can kill you. I think I told him he was horrible, and my sister came to my bedside, but I didn’t tell her what he’d done. I felt like less of a person after the accusation like a pathetic figure in the bed whose husband had chosen to add misery to. That’s what happens when you’ve been covering for him. Today, she knows everything and the first thing out of my mouth would be: You won’t believe this.

Question: What happened?

When I returned home after several days, I asked why in God’s name he thought that about me. I’d forgotten that his mother had an affair many people knew about. Anyway, he said he had to sit on a hard chair for hours there and was in a bad mood. He “apologized.” Apparently, he couldn’t think of a way to blame me and since men do look good in suits, he saw no problem with his sick logic.

Question: How do you feel about it?

I feel he’s never going to change in spite of his 7 yrs of therapy. The fact that I stayed after what happened at the hospital is even more discouraging to me. Now, I feel that it could never happen again and it is a good feeling, but I wonder what I'm doing. I see four reasons that terrible behavior would not be tolerated again under the same circumstances.

1. The element of surprise is gone.

2. I’ve stopped covering for him.

3. His opinion doesn’t define me.

4. My self-respect returned.

I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to learn something from the above and focus on what I'm allowing in my life now.

Please excuse me for jumping on this boat long after it's left the dock (serious technical difficulties on this end), but this is an awesome thread and I've found out from reading here, more than I've ever known about this subject.  I must have values, but don't know what they are, and my boundaries have recently been violated so often and so frighteningly that I now avoid others as much as I can.

Very recent situation:  one afternoon someone stomped up my porch and hammered on the door.  My heart in my mouth, I opened the door and a man was there I vaguely recognized from across the street.  He said there was some stuff coming loose on my roof I should fix because he could see it from his house, and he was here to offer his help.  He then proceeded to badmouth his wife, calling her "a lazy bum" and a bunch of other things, then went on at length about how he stayed in shape, and he suddenly pulled up his shirt to expose a hairy belly.  I had been scared green by the hammering on the door, but managed to keep him from coming inside throughout all this talking and had gradually eased him down the steps and out to the sidewalk where I tried to politely end the conversation and get him to leave. As we stood there, a man drove by in a truck and stared angrily at us, whereas my visitor started waving frantically at the guy, crying "There he is, that's my father-in-law!"  I was horrified:  it looked like I was friendly with this unwanted intruder, like I had solicited him to come over to my house or something.  I felt like the neighborhood floozy.

What values did it violate?  I must have a strong value of privacy because I don't want anyone from this park coming around my house. ( I have some really good reasons for this, but it's a whole other story and I don't want to digress.)  I'm already aware that I have a strong value of not wanting men hanging around, or women for that matter.  This visit violated a personal-safety value.  And also, I found it insulting that some strange guy thinks he can come around me and run down his wife and show off his hairy gut (as if I would give a rat's arse.)

What did I do?  This is going to sound like a complete coward's cop-out, but I swear to God it's true, and always true when i get "caught" by someone, the minute the pounding on the door began, I mentally went somewhere else.  No, I don't become unconscious, I answered the door but placated and agreed and uh-huh to everything he said, the best thing I can do in situations like this is I didn't actually agree with him about what he said about the wife, but I didn't disagree either.

What happened?  When the father-in-law appeared, he finally left, after I'd promised to let him know the minute I was going to fix the roof so he could come help.  (It is not going to happen.)

How do I feel about it?  I was very glad he was finally gone.  I was glad I hadn't offended him and given him any reason to retaliate.  At the same time, I felt horrible to have been seen standing out on the sidewalk with him.  I still do.  I also feel very ashamed, in retrospect, that I wasn't able to get rid of him immediately, and that I didn't give him Hail Columbia about coming over here badmouthing his wife.

Thanks for the opportunity to attempt to write some thing like this down... .I feel great anxiety about posting and am always glad to read when others share that they too, have fears about it. 

   s a

Again, boundaries = your value system in action. If you're interested, you can take a look at the book where I got this quote and used it in the limits chapter of The Essential Family Guide: In their book Better Boundaries, authors Jan Black and Greg Enns explain that establishing limits in relationships can very quickly raise our life experiences to a new level of competency and joy. Limits, they say, protect us from being or feeling “controlled, manipulated, ‘fixed,’ misunderstood, abused, discounted, demeaned, or wrongly judged.” According to the authors, limits form an identifiable shape around our beliefs and preferences. They bring order to our lives: without them, we become overwhelmed with the demands of others and are tempted by “sirens of opportunity” to do things that steer us off course. In this way, limits are our values in action, free from anyone else’s control or influence.  

Someone said:Sad to think of it this way, but with personality-disordered people it is like war. We are the city at peace with big walls around us (our boundaries), and they are the army marching in to destroy our peace and take our stuff and put our citizenry into slavery. We have the walls (boundaries) but if we don't defend them they will just march in through the open front gate or poke holes in the walls and pour in.I understand that feeling. I had something like that with my BP mother. The way I think of boundaries is asking yourself one question: WHAT DO I NEED TO DO TO TAKE CARE OF MYSELF? There, the focus is on you more than the other person. Some BPs are extremely sensitive to feeling pushed away, and thinking of it as a war can create a cycle where they start to act out, which makes the non act out, and it all gets into chaos. I think of not a wall, but I think of a bubble made of unbreakable clear plastic that surrounds me, and only I can let people in or not.

B & W, the senario you posed is something I have been through to a tee. I am in a dance scene and I am ok with my partner (ex now - long time ago, strone BPD traits and a rager) dancing with others but I did a limit - if I felt it was getting a little too intimate I would call him on it. I would wait til we got home to make a scene. I was tring to be flexible as you say - ok with him dancing with others but not ok with the way he did it.

This went on and on. He raged and I left the relationship. So while I agree that be inflexible and being counterphobic are two extremes sometimes being rigid with some is out of necessity. When the boundaries are crossed way too often then my coutnerphobic reaction kicks in. So I guess what I am saying is that there is a place for being too rigid.

This is a recent (months) situation that continues to haunt me. I still don't know how to process it or where to put it.

1) The Situation:

I grew up with a great deal of raging, screaming, and violence in my household. I always swore to myself that my children would never experience the same. Never. Thus far, I have upheld this this boundary very well. On the rare occassions where my DH and I argue/disagree, there is never any screaming or even raised voices. Firm voices are our limit. Things are kept brief and not hashed for hours on end.

My uBPDm lives with me in a basement "apartment" of my house. I went downstairs with my baby girl in my arms, she was probably 6-7 months old. Before I knew it, and I don't remember why, my mother was raging at me. Screaming. Yelling. Cursing. Insulting me. As I always have, I stood there and took it, frantically thinking how I could calm her. Then, I realized what was happening. My mother was doing all of this while I held my baby girl in my arms. Something I swore I would never let my kids experience. On the inside, I crumbled into shame, hurt, fear, weakness, guilt, and feelings of inadequecy. I had failed to protect my baby. On the outside, I stood rooted to the spot.

I looked over at the door leading upstairs with longing. It was *right there*! Why couldn't I walk to it? Why was I frozen?

I felt so helpless and violated that I lashed out. I screamed back at my mother to "Get the F out of my house!" Of course, this was the absolute worse thing I could have done. Not only did it reinforce the disordered feelings and thinking of my mother, but now I had further violated my own boundries with my daughter. Inside, I crumbled even more.

2) Clearly it violated my boundaries of exposing my children to that level of rage and anger.

3) From there my memory is foggy -- I honestly don't remember if I did walk away (though I doubt it) or I stayed longer and took more abuse. I also might have dissolved into a mess of tears and incoherent begging my mother to stop the insanity and swearing to her I didn't mean it. Probably the later. I simply am unsure.

4) Eventually things must have cooled and been "righted." I'm not sure how they got there or what happened. I never am. But my mother didn't leave, so clearly I must have smoothed things over somehow.

5) I feel anger and resentment, mostly toward myself. I am angry at myself for allowing my daughter to be put in that position. I am angry she saw, heard and felt all of that. I am angry I fell back into my old role of fixer and did whatever I had to do to make my mother comfortable. I am angry my daughter saw me so weak and helpless. I am angry I allowed my mother to put me in that position. I regret the situation deeply.

So, there it is. And I still don't know what to do with it. The sad part? It is not the only time this has happened since my mother has lived with me. :'( It is just the example that is more clear in my mind.

Hi All!

   I clearly need help and encouragement with establishing this boundary:

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

My H frequently comes home from work late at night, after I have gone to sleep, or am trying to go to sleep. He is usually wound up from work, and cannot go right to sleep, and instead of either trying to relax and go to sleep, he has been waking me up, on purpose for company. Sometimes he is passive aggressive about it, by closing doors loudly, walking past the bed with a heavy foot and not taking shoes off, talking loudly to the dog, etc. Other times, he actually stands next to the bed and announces, "I'm home".

Question: How what values did it violate?

I get up for work at 5:30AM, and need more than a few hours of sleep. If he wakes me up at Midnight, that leaves little time for my rest.

Question: What did you do?

I have asked him to be more quiet, and to respect my sleep time as I do his when I get up well before him.

Question: What happened?

He claims to not be noisy, and doing anything on purpose. He says that announcing his presence is so that I don't get scared when I hear someone in the house. I've told him if I'm asleep, I don't hear him. If I do hear anything, and see the clock, I assume it's him, and go back to sleep. Other times he has said that I should "be there" for him to discuss his day with him. Sometimes he needs me, and the only bright spot in his day is seeing me and having me to talk to.

Question: How do you feel about it?

I am upset by it. It is clearly a ploy for attention with total disregard for my need to sleep. By making it sound like he is doing me a favor by announcing himself, or expressing his "joy" to see me, he is trying to justify his insensitivity, and making me look like the bad guy for not being there for him after a long hard day. I don't feel guilty about trying to meet my own needs. I have a job to go to, and I can't do it without rest. No matter how I have tried to get this across, he still manages to turn it around on me as if I am wrong, or that I am imagining things!

So, suggestions would be appreciated. This situation cannot persist. I just want to think through a plan, using the appropriate protocol for dealing with a pwBPD, and not making a bad situation worse. I know I am not being unreasonable, but want to approach him properly. It sounds like walking on eggshells, but my intent is to use the right tools, to practice, and to have the desired outcome! Thanks in advance for your advice!

Best Wishes,

Val78

Boundaries are things that control our actions or responses. 

So with the interrupted sleep thing... .

These aren't ideal, but:

-Can you sleep separately?

-Can you lock the bedroom door when you go to bed?

-Can you wear ear plugs?

Just some suggestions.

-GM

Wow. This is a lot to absorb, and I need to re-read it a few more times (I did read every single post/reply). I certainly believe I am finally zeroing in on what MY problem is (having only recently learned what my mom's problem is--BPD).

In my family (growing up) I became the "no-good child"/scapegoat for trying to establish boundaries. The rest of the family went along with this. When I would dare to speak up about ANY boundary violations (sometimes serious violations, like horrible beatings combined with verbal abuse; sometimes "lesser" violations, like mom tossing my room looking for "evidence" or proof that I/we were BAD) my mom identified this--in front of everyone--as "defiance". My "defiance" would lead to major rages, and then my brothers and stepdad would be angry with me for "causing" mom to blow up. They would admonish me to keep my mouth shut. Usually I did. But not always.

I was also constantly told that I was "selfish" whenever I asked for something, expressed desire to do or have something, or didn't do something (examples: asking for something to eat, asking for a book or game or wanting to go somewhere, or reading while someone else was doing dishes).

To this day, these are problem areas for me. The very first posting here, the story about the house, hits home with me. I go back and forth between thinking I'm "selfish" for not giving too much of myself, and disengaging. I think of disengaging as "standing up for myself"--something I was never allowed to do.

Sometimes I am resentful about the "boundary busters" requests, but believe if I comply, then basically they will "owe" me when it comes MY turn for requests (then when my requests are turned down, I am outraged by their "selfishness", and continue the cycle until finally I disengage, thinking "THERE! I finally stood up for myself!" when in actuality, the problem was either tolerated/accepted and then run away from.

My father (divorced from my mom when I was an infant) was emotionally incestuous and sexually abusive at times. But he looked like a great parent to me (from the kid perspective) because he didn't beat me (ever) or scream verbal abuse at me (ever). This where most of the FOG was in my life. When I was an adult, he decided to become a guy who wouldn't get out of bed unless he had to (yes he had health problems, but they weren't debilitating like he exaggerated that they were). And as his only child, he expected me to come take care of him. this wasn't taking care of like when you're taking care of someone sick. This was personal slave crap "go get me a bowl of jello" go do this, go do that, get me this or that, fill my ice bucket, go get me Chramin double ply single roll toilet paper--AUGH! This isn't what I said, this is double ply double roll! Throw it away and go get what I asked for! After you trim my toenails and squeeze the dogs anal glands and put some neosporin on my scrotum. then cook me some beef and noodles and boil a dozen eggs for exactly 7 minutes and go get boards to make a rack to adjust my TV so I don't have to look up at it.

My own life was secondary (at best) and if I'd show annoyance and say "I need to get home and work so my business doesn't collapse" he'd get put out and grab his wallet and hand me a couple hundred dollar bills and say "here--this is better than make those 'thingys' that you make". And I did it. Usually he wasn't snarky--he was polite and said thank you. But it never ended. And just like when I was a kid, I was afraid to disappoint him or let him down in any way, because I felt I "owed" him for not treating me the way my mom did. I was his only kid--so it must be my "duty". I resented it greatly--but carefully and silently. When he died, i was relieved. And felt guilty about that.

But the problem was never resolved--just sidestepped.

I still think "am I being too pushy? Am I being SELFISH? Am I asking for too much?" And if I determine that I'm not, the only "resolution" I usually see is disengagement. For example, I've been NC with mom for 22 years. Not that I think it would be a good idea to start communication with her again--it wouldn't. But I never did learn to deal with her. Or anyone I let get close to me. I'm not so great with other peoples boundaries either. Especially if they "owe" me. Hmmm... .there's a lot to read here--including all the links in this thread. But I want to. I'm tired of analyzing my mom and her behavior. I want to work on MYSELF. Not just sit around patting myself and feeling sorry about what I've endured. I mean learn the things I didn't learn as a kid.

DA,

It is a lot to absorb.  There is a really great book on boundaries by Townsend & Cloud.  We have a review on it here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=59097.0 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=59097.0).

Many times being an Adult Child we have to teach ourselves things our parents were ill-equipped to teach us.  I still struggle with boundaries.

It's like a work in progress that for me involves habit.  Start small and build up.  It gets easier and I feel more comfortable if I'm very aware of what value I'm defending for myself.

Here's a great excerpt from the main boundaries workshop this case study workshop was derived from that talks especially about the guilt we can feel.


I struggled with the resentment and the guilt trips... .you mentioned the "am I being selfish" I struggled with that too.  I was hard to say No sometimes.  

If you want to start with a small boundary with the following questions from page 1 here I would happily walk through it with you.


GM

How weird! I don't even know how to do this! But I'm going to try--here goes (start with something comparitively small):

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

When I was about 13, I did some yard work for a neighbor and earned a small amount of money. With some of that money, I bought a Steve Martin record that I thought was very funny. But at one point on the record, he sang "grandpa bought a rubber" and I knew my mom was going to destroy the record at first opportunity because of that. So I pulled the carpet back from the floor underneath my bed and hid it there (back in the record album days--it was flat). She found it. I was afraid to ask her about it, but then saw it "conveniently" sticking out from behind her desk in the dining room. I pulled it out and the album was broken in half. This was one of those moments where I decided to say something--I asked her what happened to my record. She said it must have fallen behind the desk and broke. I could see I was treading thin ice by the look in her eye and the tone of her voice (and we both knew where she actually found it) but I went ahead and said "but the cover has a crease all the way across it. Someone broke it on purpose" and she said--very sarcastically--"well maybe (younger brother) did it!"

Question: How what values did it violate?

The right to privacy in my room (which wasn't allowed ever anyway), the right to respect for my belongings (which I paid for myself), the common courtesy to be honest about what she did and why.

Question: What did you do?

I swallowed my indignation and anger and let it go.   

Question: What happened?

I'm not sure how to answer this. What happened immediately? Nothing. Everything stayed the same as always.

Question: How do you feel about it?

At the time, I was angry about being treated like this. I was also despondant (not quite the exact word) about not seeing any other way to deal with things except to submit. It's hard to take this particular situation out of the bigger picture context. I rolled it into all the other internalized angry feelings because there was no where for those feelings to go. If I dared to show how I felt, I would have been whipped. That itself made me feel hopeless, voiceless, weak, pathetic. I also felt afraid and blamed myself in order to cope/survive by pointing out to myself that I was clearly "bad" for hiding something (which was very strictly forbidden and I was well aware of that). I don't even know how to explain how I felt, because there were so many feelings mashed together that didn't seem to go together.

Maybe I should try something from adulthood:

As a start, it would be helpful to have a few examples of boundary violations that we can analyze.

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

Frequently when I am talking about something important to me to my husband, he picks up the newspaper and starts reading it or simply walks out of the room or house.

Question: How what values did it violate?

GEEZ! I'm not sure! Do I have the "RIGHT" to be treated respectfully? 

Question: What did you do?

I used to just sulk and feel sorry for myself and angrily think about dumping him. Then I started spewing my anger on him for treating me like I'm unimportant and boring. Now I brush aside my anger, and say to myself "well, what did you expect? Like you don't know what's going to happen?" and get on with something else to distract myself, and try to not share anything of myself with him--hold myself distant to protect myself. 

Question: What happened?

Our relationship has become more and more distant, until we are basically room mates who co-exist devoid of communication.

Question: How do you feel about it?

Cheated. Used. Angry. Ignored. Taken advantage of. Lonely. Rejected. Confused about whether I should "accept him for who he is" and quit pushing personal things on him that he clearly doesn't want. Fearful and unsure about myself--am I too pushy? Am I wanting "it all" (too much) when in many other respects he is a good husband (mostly based on what he DOESN'T do--drinking, drugs, infidelity, laziness, etc)?

I find I am having a very difficult time seperating the questions "what happened" and "how do you feel about it". And answering "what values did it violate?". And I can relate to your example about defending boundaries (without values). And i cannot answer this: For example, if your independent core value is "always to be respectful of others" a boundary question might be "would abruptly walking out of the room when someone says something offensive be inside or outside of your definition of this value?"

I'm surprised, because i feel totally lost here.

I'll use one where I don't know if I reacted well.

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

We were in a foreign country where the glyphs are not the ones used in the Germanic-Latinate group. My mom complained that the maps were "confusing" because the glyphs (she called them symbols, which she knows is a trigger) are all strange (i.e. racist comment, which was supposed to be aimed at me indirectly--for an earlier bout where I dared to set a boundary.)

I pointed and asked my Dad and showed him. He nodded and smiled and then pointed it out to her. I could feel her sulking. (The passive aggressive behavior wasn't really about that. And my Dad didn't get that being in denial land.)

So later, when we found a restaurant they wanted to go to and I'd agreed to, she asked me to match the "symbol." She took credit for it.

Question: How what values did it violate?

Copyright, my thoughts, intellect, and human rights.

Question: What did you do?

I objected. I thought about walking away, but I didn't have the cash or means to go back to the hotel and set the boundaries per the three strikes rule. I did offer to eat at a different restaurant (though it's hard to remember after the distortion field goes up.) and meet them later and asked to borrow the cash. My Dad intervened (like always) in favor of my mom. She tried to bend the reality around us so she would get credit. Since it's a restaurant, either way she wins. She likes to deprive me of food to "punish me" if I push back and say I found it, then she won't let me have food (Delayed period of time, so she's not a "abusive". (She's done this before AND likes to joke about it because it's a win-win for her). Sad thing was I was an adult by then.

Question: What happened?


We went into the restaurant and then it became a silent match, her end. I didn't let her do the sweeping "Oh, it's on you honey" thing. Made her more mad. I let her. I ignored her anger.

I went into talking about the food, which lightened her up a bit. She tried to chalk up the earlier disagreement to "low blood sugar". I didn't let her by ignoring her comment. She got more mad.

Eventually this all festered into a huge BPD rage and silent match some days later. She holds grudges. My Dad tried to blame me. Didn't let him.

Question: How do you feel about it?

Angry and violated. Also manipulated into a win-win. Either way, I fed her and I had no way to walk away from them being in a foreign country.

Also angry at myself because I tried *not* to go into puppy dog mode, but I don't know if I did or didn't. I almost feel like I did, but again, distortion field is strong around her.

Therapist thought given the circumstances I did well... .but I can't help feeling that I could have done better.

DoubleAries,

I read both instances you've written about, both then and now.

The instance of when you had your privacy violated and your belongings destroyed must have been heartbreaking.  I'm really sorry that happened.  When we are kids it's kind of hard to enforce boundaries especially if our parents are bullies.

What I've noticed is I've learned from these boundary violations like you've mentioned:


. 

I learned to be voiceless and passive.  This carried into my adult interactions.

You mentioned your values as:

right to privacy

respect for my belongings 

courtesy to be honest   

So, our boundaries are the things we can do to ensure we honor these things with our actions.  We couldn't do it as children, but we can do it as we get older.


I thought your were very articulate with your feelings of this situation.  You picked a really good example.  It's hard when we feel disregarded or ignored... .it can hurt.  Often times when we carry our childhood lessons into our adulthood relationships we can enable patterns that don't always help us to have healthy relationships. 

Building on what you wrote from the childhood instance and the one with your husband it looks like you've identified for values:

Respecting privacy

Respecting property

Honest Communication

Respecting Feelings

It sounds like the situation touches on Honest Communication and Respecting Feelings.  We can't control the actions of others, but we can behave in a way that respects our values and boundaries.  And with this integrity we build confidence and self-respect.   

In regards to Honest Communication and Respecting Feelings, there are several tools that may help you to communicate your feelings to your husband.

Have you checked out the communication tools here at bpdfamily.com?

GM

DesertChild,

I'm really sorry to hear this, and it was on vacation.  Vacations are supposed to fun.  It sounds like you were triangulated between your mom and dad.  This can be totally frustrating and we can walk away from a situation like this a go "What was that?", "What just happened", etc.

I think your therapist had a great opinion the circumstances were you captive on a trip... .with nowhere to go.  It doesn't leave a whole lot of options.

In regards to being triangulated and respecting your individual autonomy next time... .what could you do as far as actions that doesn't allow your parents to draw you into a uncomfortable situations in their relationship?

GM

I did swear after that to go nowhere with them where I would be trapped and in a country where they don't speak or read the language (For me, I think it's fun--means more to learn and I spent a few years studying because I knew we were going to go. We'd known for at least a good 5 years--I crash coursed on three languages in the past year.). I *knew* what it really was about--my adoption. (The whole of the continent was at fault in my mom's eyes. Even this country where I wasn't adopted from.) Still, two BPD rages in two weeks time was hard to handle--though my T said I did really well considering the circumstances of both. Setting boundaries against both my mom and dad (co-dependent) was still difficult--it was two battles back to back and Wise Mind results in them ignoring me and my boundaries. (I'm only a person to them when I yell at them or cry and I do not like yelling or crying. I feel statements get totally ignored. "I feel" statements are not valid in my mom's eyes.)

Instead, I swore that I would bring people that like to travel like how I like to travel and to countries where they like that country. (They like Museums because it helps them objectify--or I should say my Mom objectify the people there into displays, so it feels "safe" to her. Drives me nuts. Also drives her nuts when I say I don't want to go because her asking isn't supposed to be optional.) I also asked people I knew if they would some day would like to go with me that would be enthusiastic to go. I stopped my denial, faced it and decided to always have an escape route around them so I can set healthy boundaries. My Therapist also said to always have cash at hand in the future, especially around them in case this happens around them again. (Was early in just setting boundaries, so I hadn't learned yet.) I still want to become strong enough to go to my home town and not be trapped--I'm working towards that because there are things I want to do there that don't involve either of them. (And I had no contingency plan for the last two times, which acted like a trigger for my lousy childhood both times.)

Thank you, GreenMango--where can i find the communication tools?

I have a similar experience with my sil.   She's very animated when she's doing the talking.  But when I try to contribute to the conversation, she looks away.  She turns her face so that I have to look at her stiff profile or else she just looks distracted.  I interpret it as a power thing.  I know that she gets into this thing about feeling like she's better than others.  And I think it's a subtle way of making me feel unimportant.  Can't imagine what it would be like to be married to someone like that.  Fortunately, I don't see her that often.  And it's just another thing that makes me dread her company.  I'm a bit too slow to react.  I never think about how to respond until much later.  One of these days I want to just say, "Are you not interested in what I have to say?  Because you're looking away.  If you're not interested we don't have to talk."  And that last sentence I think sums it up.  I don't think what she says is any more interesting than what I have to say. But I politely listen and try to interact.  I resent that there is no real reciprocation.  She wants attention without giving attention in exchange. 

When I get a chance I'll post a different boundary situation. 

Everytime my BPD father projects onto me, it feels like a huge boundary violation.

Who I am, how I feel, what I want, these are all private things. I decide. I am in charge of this domain. But my father will TELL me how I am feeling, or what caused my behavior.

For instance, my blood sugar went down at the doctors frm my last visit. I had changed nothing with my diet or my exercise. BPD dad didn't listen to me when I said I changed nothing. He just started making up a story. "no, you got scared and so you changed your behavior."

Keep in mind that I wasn't even LIVING with him at the time, so this idea of a behavioral change was purely made up in his mind. He is also famously anxious, so "you got scared" sounds more like a description of the way he would act.

I also hate it when he acts like he is doing something to help me, when in reality he is hurting me. I make it clear that I want him to stop, but he continues.

Some good communication tools are located in the Workshops (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=36.0).  One that is a good starter is SET (https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict).

There's one clincher about communication tools, they don't fix a personality disorder.  They can help to deescalate conflict riddled communication, but in the beginning because they take practice.  Sometimes it doesn't always end in instant happiness. 

A great place to practice these tools and get feedback is on the Undecided or Staying board if you want to give it a try.

-GM

Is there a way to physically remove yourself from the help?

GM

 

I just wanted to say that it's so easy to see the boundary violations when my SIL crosses my mom's boundaries.  She bullies my mom and treats her like a servant, and then turns around and complains that my mom doesn't spend more time with her and her kids.  It feels more vague with me.  And there's always an angle to it, where she does things that disrespect boundaries.  Yet I see this angle where I will look bad if I complain.  

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries have been violated?

My SIL scolded my kids.  (She's done this a few times.)  Once, she scolded my daughter for sticking her tongue out at her baby.  My daughter didn't realize she had done something wrong and got very upset.  I realize how this sounds just looking at the particular incident -like my child is rude and I'm being over-coddling.

Question: What values did it violate?    

The main problem is that my SIL (and brother) have very aggressive kids, and their lack of concern for their own kids' bad behavior has been a problem for me and my husband for years.  To try to prevent our kids from being hurt, either me or my husband have frequently given up visiting with adults during family gatherings to monitor the kids.  I've tried talking to my brother about it, but he's clueless.  My father has even told my SIL that her child is a bully, and she replied with a defensive "no, he's not!" --without even asking what her son had done.  Most of the time that we've been together my kids (particularly my son) have had to endure pushing, hitting, pinching, name calling, body slamming, harassing behavior like poking sticks in my son's face.  And my SIL and brother act like it's none of their business.  I don't think she has a right to scold my kids until she take an active role in making sure her kids are playing nice with mine.

Question: What did you do?    

At the time I didn't know how to articulate what was wrong.  Since then when my kids complain, I try to bring it up with my SIL or brother and ask them to handle their own kids.  As an example, recently, my daughter came up to me and told me that my nephew had punched her in the stomach.  My SIL and brother were right there.  I turned to my SIL immediately and asked her to tell her son to play nice.  My SIL responded by getting flustered.  "Oh, uh, well, I didn't see what happened."  Then she turned to my brother/her husband and asked him to take care of it.  Later when I thought of her response it made me angry.  20 minutes previously I had had to tell her kids to play nice repeatedly --and this while SIL was present.   I was angry that she questioned the truthfulness of my daughter.  


Question: How do you feel about it?

My daughter sticking her tongue out IS rude.  I didn't want my daughter to do things that were offensive.   But it just didn't sit right with me.  At first I had a vague feeling of unfairness that she was scolding my child, but it took several hours before I could articulate why.   I don't think she has a right to scold my kids until she takes an active role in keeping her own children's behavior in line, and prevents her kids from hurting and harassing mine.  She has to right to complain about the small sins of my children, when her kids are constantly terrorizing mine.  I felt bad that I didn't have the words to say at that time.  I didn't want to do or say anything that would cause conflict/or escalation of a problem with my SIL, yet I felt like I should have  said something to stand up for my kids.