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     Mine seemed to be very sadistic and enjoy hurting me emotionally from time to time, as if it were all a game.  Make fun of me when I cried because she upset me. 

     

I think it's because they enjoy taking out all of the abuse they suffered earlier in their life out on you.  The parents who abandoned them, all the previous bf's/gf's who have hurt them, they take out all this pain on you.  They constantly manage to inflict better and more effective ways to manipulate you through all kinds of devious methods.  Lots of experts talk about how they are not to blame for this.  The similar behaviors of all BPD's seem to echo this sentiment.  How much of their hurtful bevahior they themselves are responsible for is open to debate.

But one things is for sure: they definitely enjoy making us suffer.  I know this, because I have read my ex gf's diary and she would write about how satisfying it was to make me suffer by putting me down.  They take out all their inner hatred of their past persecutors, and all the self hatred they have with themselves, out on you.

Just my opinion.

That must be really hard for you Karen, I am sorry.

Most pwBPD actually do not enjoy hurting others - it honestly is not about you.  Many times their pain is so great that they project it onto you; as such the actions around that are really just more maladaptive coping skills - NOT designed to hurt you, simply a method for them to survive.

Knowing that doesn't really make your pain go away, but perhaps it can help you to take the actions less personal and focus on healing your own pain.  The pain we have from these relationships is REAL and healing takes time & tears.  The more I learn about the facts of the disorder, the more I realize what feels so personal to me was really not at all about me.  However, I do get to feel my own pain and I do get to choose whether or not to let that person hurt me again.

Hang in there,

SB

I understand it is a mental illness. But BPD's know what suffering is. What hurts people. They know about depression. They don't like being hurt themselves. So how can it be an excuse that we should forgive them for what they do to us when they clearly know it will hurt us? I left my ex because of all the abuse so she has deliberately got with someone else i work with, flaunts it go my face every opportunity she gets. Parks next to me everyday. Gets me in trouble with the police for something i have not done. Gets me in trouble at work for something i have not done. Yet if we did it to them it would crush them. I am starting to lose all caring and pity for my ex now for what she is doing to me.

Quite a rational argument you make here; however, BPD is not rational.  At the time you are being hurt by the actions of a mentally ill person; that person is using a maladaptive coping method to relieve pain (much greater than you can imagine).

Forgiveness is not for them, it is for you – so you can let go and move on with your life.

Forgiveness does not mean you keep putting your hand on the hot stove, either.


What she is doing is not right, it is hurtful – she is acting out on you it seems.  You are the punitive parent and she is responding.  Again, abandonment is the trigger – and you left her, so in her mind – all is fair.  She is protecting herself.

It sounds like you might want to start putting up boundaries to protect yourself.  This does not mean falsely accuse her of things, but perhaps talk to your HR and file a complaint against.  She does need to learn consequences to actions.   

Accepting BPD as a mental illness does not mean accepting you deserve to be a victim of abuse.

With all due respect "SB"... .my ex not only enjoyed inflicting pain and punishment but thoroughly thrived on grounding her bootheel into your face while doing it. She was all about revenge for totally imagined wrongs.

After all it is a mental illness, and because BPD's all share so many almost identical traits and characteristics it would definitely seem to point to the fact that what they do is beyond their control.  But I have no doubt in my mind that my BP ex also loved seeing me suffer after treating me badly.  I think she thought I deserved it, for having treated her badly/"abused" her/abandoned her.  Whether these "mistreatments" on my part actually happened (and of course I will admit sometimes they did I mean I'm only human and can only take so much) or were the result of her hypersensitive feelings, is anyone's guess.  I'm sure they were often due to both factors.

I think they thought they we were the ones who were being unreasonable and that they were the ones who were putting up with all of our b.s. until they couldn't take it anymore and made us suffer.  My ex was a waif, so she didn't really "rage" in the classical sense.  In fact, I remember during some periods of the hater phase that she would tell me that she was the one trying to calm me down from MY rages.  I was so convinced that I was the problem.  I was thinking that, "hey just because this person does all these evil things to me that gives me no right to act the way I do."  I was convinced that it was me who was going nuts.  I mean, I knew beyond a doubt she was crazy, but I thought I had joined her too.

I honestly don't feel it's as simple as them just enjoying watching us suffer. I think it's all part of their devaluation of us, making us less attractive or less perfect in their mind. Enough devaluation will eventually make them believe they'll feel less pain if we ever do 'abandon' them. I believe it's a complex emotional survival technique they've developed.

Howdy,

I am with SB on this.

We cant know the different individuals ... .and we certainly do not know your ex and maybe they were also just a sadist on top of the rest.

I do know the pain inflicted by my ex. i was there ... .and she sadly did not really understand what she had done. She showed little if any compassion towards anyone even her kids. Sure on the surface it appeared she did but if they hurt themselves tripped even a bad fall her initial reaction was to ... .laugh.     

My ex coped with this awful behaviour during rage sessions by claiming she could not remember anything or little of it afterwoods.  ? Of course she slipped up by sometimes telling me verabim replies I had said during  rage sessions which were supposidly totally blacked out by booze.  ?

Anyhow ... as a few have suggested I agree they hit out because they are in pain and need an outlet. Like a 2 year old who cant express themselves and in frustration throws a temper tantrum same sort of thing. reasons behind the temper tantrum like the two year old you never will really know. Your partner may tell you one reason but like the two year old they are unable to communicate actually what is upsetting them.

Lots of reasons I came up with for the triggers ... .from feeling neglected to actually feeling guilty about cheating as I now know ... .to get attention

What they did ... .like a 2 year old screaming and hitting and kicking is sadly not really their fault despite being adults. They wanted and needed attention and got it ... we gave it to them.

Saldy now and too late I know the best thing would have been to walk away till the 40 year old tantrum thrower had exhausted herself and then deal with issues. Sadly by trying to calm her down ... .show caring ... .enabling the tantrum and not punishing her for bad acts ... .it just went on.

I own these actions ... .allowing her to inflict pain ... .enabling her for the best of intentions but the worst possible results.

Strange thing was after these episodes ... .she actually blamed me for them. It was my fault. For the wrong reasons yes I enabled them ... .I didn't cause the explosion of her 2 year old persona ... .but yep I had something to do with them.

When your now 43 as she is and still throwing tantrums lashing out not caring about what she says or does ... .its far too late to worry about teaching lessons that are taught when your a child.

Take care

I don't know your ex, maybe your are correct.  Perhaps your ex is not BPD, maybe some other mental illness - I don't know.

I do know that I asked my ex specifically, "why are you intent on destroying our lives" and her answer was, "I want you to feel as much pain as I am in all the time."

My jaw dropped, she didn't remember it in MC later (dissociation), and she looked mean saying it.  I took it personally for a long while, but, ultimately for my healing  - I choose to believe the facts of the disorder - my ex couldn't stand herself and I became the punitive parent role.  It sucked - but I don't think my ex did it purposefully - she is mentally ill.

Maybe your ex does intend to hurt you - I don't know.

I think this is one of the main reasons this disorder does soo much damage. Its a VERY SERIOUS DISORDER, pulled off by one whom, for the most part, can fit into many roles of society. Lets face it, we all put up with child like behavior. I, like many others, am convinced, we get involved with BPD, and when it ends, we just write it off as another bad r/s, and move on, crippled, hurt, beat down and damaged, only to land into the same HAMSTER WHEEL OF PAIN, with another contestant. Its almost, as if we also relive our childhood trauma. Are we also doing this, only to try and get it right this time?.  PEACE

Dunno SB... .you might be right.

Seems as if there's just something wrong with this type of mean, nasty, awful thinking:

Continually called her 3 year old nephew a "little prick" because he wouldn't say "hi" to her when he came into the house. (he was scared of her)

Called her other nephew (15) a "pee-pee toucher" for no good reason at all.

When she discovered that her daughter was going to marry a guy who just joined the army she said this: "the scumbag is going to get shot in the head in Afghanistan and I'm gonna be left picking up the pieces." And somehow I still miss this beast.

Her description of herself would be that she "tells it like it is, doesn't hold anything back and tells you where she's coming from."

My thoughts are very different.

And somehow I still miss this beast.

i agree with SB.

i think even to the extent 'they' "enjoy" inflicting pain it's... .well, its irrational, like SB said. i think the word "enjoy" simplifies what is a very complicated, complex process going on in their heads.

im no expert. but from what i've gathered, it kind of seems to me that this "enjoyment" of such behavior may be relative to the extent of that persons narcissism. with BPD there is usually some narcissist overlap, but it can greatly vary as far as how much.

pwBPD know right from wrong, yes. it was very easy for my ex to see irrational or otherwise bad behavior on the part of others, and see the error in the ways, and be disgusted by it.

the problem with BPD is that it can essentially make 'wrong' 'right' in their minds, for any number of reasons. like was already mentioned, its usually because you've been painted black. that means as far as they're concerned, you're evil, and you deserve it. this tends to override any value system they may have. they revise facts to fit their feelings because feelings=fact.

like SB said, in some cases they want you to be in as much pain as they are. in some cases its to make you react, and thus prove their theory that you're evil. some of it is simply impulsive behavior, as pwBPD tend to engage in. in some cases, as i suspect is the case with milo, i think it's more or less about projection. what she rubs in milo's face allows her to believe she is happy and has it all, and in her mind achieves him believing the same. i think we can all relate to SOME of these behaviors on some level. whether its flaunting our new/better life in front of an old friend or an ex, or doing something impulsive, etc. now amplify it about a hundred times.

yes, they know suffering, but i think that's where the narcissism plays in. they, to varying degrees, lack empathy. my ex was not the type to either inflict upon me, or enjoy my suffering. however, looking back, i can see that when i was reaching out to her for support, to the extent it was there, it was 'faked'. i always just felt it was lacking. it could also be a matter of intimacy. i also felt for the duration of our relationship that my ex just could not SEE the damage she did when she raged, or did something nuts, or said something mean. i spent most of the relationship pointing it out to her. what always struck me is she did NOT like having our fights replayed for her. in fairness to me, i wasn't replaying them to abuse her, i felt (rightfully) that it was almost as if she'd forgotten. when i realized no matter how i sliced it, that i felt it was somewhat abusive, i stopped. that was one of those crazy making double standards though. she was constantly bringing up whatever she could at me. i would do it back to try and put things in perspective for her (her anger was not fitting) and that was a conflict, because i try my hardest to forgive and not hold things over another persons head.

i still would hesitate to call it "enjoyment" but again, i think when that kind of behavior is displayed, there's a lot of narcissism at work.

I dont believe BPDs "enjoy" making others suffer... .mine did, but she was also comorbid HPD/ASPD and a drug addict... .perhapsa comorbity exists here also, I dont know... .

Yes I became a parent as well, at first I was the nurturing provider parent, then it switched where she put me down about things like my hearing, or technological, it was her way of punishing me I guess.

To T.A.

You mentioned that basically in hindsite during the rages you should have walked away until the 40 year old was done with their tantrum so to speak.

Trust me I knew nothing about BPD or NPD when going through this with my husband my first line of defense was like you basically trying to be caring ,understanding calm asking can I do anything to help etc. after that failed many times I tried only a couple times yelling back that didn't work either sometimes I sat and let him destroy something into pieces and act like I wasn't there and it didn't affect me at all (early on it scared me,would I be hit at some point,he never did physically abuse me)eventually I did just leave the room totally as you thought would have helped worked whatever ... .it did help me to remove myself but honestly coming from someone who did try everything in the end it didn't matter.

I was still gaslighted,broken down emotionally,mentally and left without warning as many hoops as I jumped through,tried helping,ignoring etc.


I have gone through the years of should have.could have if I had done this or that.Granted we are still married but he moved out and on years ago 6 years ago.

I am much more aware of the fact that it wasn't like 80% me now and all the years wasted thinking of those should have,could have's,if only I did ?

I find BPD one of the most puzzling psychological problems to relate to. At least with sociopaths we KNOW they can't relate so while we can't get in their head, we get it. But pwBPD seem able to empathize and feel remorse, yet they consistently behave in ways that reflect otherwise. It can be a mind screw.

it might sound like splitting hairs, and i might even be wrong, but i'd say it's more accurate to say they feel "shame" as opposed to "remorse".

remorse is deeper and involves self reflection, and genuine regret, and the willingness to make things right. i think with a borderline, its kind of just a matter of knowing they did something wrong, and feeling shame. again, mine didn't enjoy making me suffer. i got tons of these things (emails, texts, whatever) full of sincere, heart felt apologies, and if she wasn't flat out saying it, you could tell how embarrassed she was at her behavior. but that's primarily what it was. she still didn't fully gather the damage she'd done.

it's not COMPLETELY accurate, but i'd compare it to a 3 year old, or perhaps a pet. i think with a borderline it's only slightly more involved. actually, maybe go with the pet over a 3 year old. 3 year olds really don't know right from wrong.

i had a pet who knew not to piss on the floor. but sometimes she would anyway. whenever she did, she knew she was in trouble, would often hide, etc.

no. im not saying pwBPD have the minds of animals. but the reaction is similar. they know they did wrong, but they dont fully GET it. my dog couldn't sit there and explain it. but she was trained. she KNEW it was wrong. was her reaction to totally stop doing it? nope. if anything, she just learned to be sneakier. i think that pretty accurately describes the dynamic for a pwBPD.

I am a bit confused with this comparison - help me out here.

BPD is a very serious MENTAL ILLNESS; 10% end in suicide, it is that real.

Sociopaths are mentally ill also.

Just because a pwBPD can fake society a bit better, does not mean this is not a serious mental illness.   The emotions of a pwBPD - think of of a burn victim and their skin, how much pain would any touch be - whether good or bad.If you touch a burn victim gently - he still might hit you.   Under stress (real or perceived) A pwBPD emotional space is very much like that. 

This is the point of why we must separate ourselves out from the equation - we do need to feel all of our hurt, anger, pain... .but expecting rational behavior from a mentally ill person 100% of the time is not rational on OUR part.

She said the exact same thing to me too!

Sometimes I wonder if they have the same ‘manual’ which they download from the Internet.


You are absolutely right. Whether they purposely punish, devalue or paint us black the result it’s exactly the same: they are miserable, hurt and burn as hell inside.

The worst part of it all is that they think they are faultless and perhaps that can explain why they replace us with no remorse. But, unfortunately (for them) the pain goes on and on and on……...

Hi Zena321,


Yep ... .have forgiven MYSELF. Not mulling about if only I did that. Sadly own up to my role in the RS and it was enabling.

Like you I actually blamed myself for 100% of the reasons why we broke up not just the 80% at the end. i had been so mixed up at the end and how she moved on out of the blue ... .cheated ... .and blamed me for everything ... .all of it was confusing.

That was then, now I dont second geusse the actions I took. Can hold my head up high and didn't resort to her levels ... .  not second geussing what I did either. the outcome would have been exactly the same. Pathological double blinds ... .it didn't matter what I did in reality ... .if I said yes it was wrong ... .if I said no it was wrong ... .if I said maybe it was wrong. It was about getting attention and going from there.

We live and learn no matter how confronting the lesson.

I dont miss my ex ... .have moved on with someone nice caring and kind.

Actually now can see the RS out of the FOG ... .abuse and confusion of being push pulled and blamed ... .projected and own my role and not allocating blame for the sake of it see what the ex was in reality and it was not pretty.

Thanks for sharing 

I think both sides are right.  My bf constantly inflicts the worst kind of pain on me, knows just what my buttons are and pushes them regularly and then laughs, or casts off my feelings as unimportant, gaslights, wow, really, like a lot of us, I could go on and on and the reason we do is that it's just so ghastly sometimes it's hard to absorb.

But, I know he feels regret.  When I feel regret, I wheel right towards the one I've offended and try to make amends.  He wheels away in the other direction just as fast as he can and the regret and pain deepen.  It's a hopeless cycle.  Why would anyone do such a thing to himself, let alone to the one he supposedly "loves" deeply.  It can't be rational and he can't be doing it intentionally.

But all this trying to figure it out I think for me is just a symptom of my own problems.  Where am I in all this?  Why am I in this relationship?  Just for the good times?  When has it ever been okay for me to be treated like this?  Just because they don't mean to, does that make it okay?  I suppose it makes a little less heinous... .perhaps it means I can have some compassion for the very real pain and trauma and chaos he delivers seemingly so callously and uncaring to my doorstep on a regular and now predictable basis.

For those of you who are married, my heart goes out to you.  But I'm not married.  I've been through this dance many times now with my boyfriend.  I'm contributing to it by going through them with him all for what? the name of love?  Is this really love I'm delivering to his doorstep?  Maybe, but it isn't pure, it's laden with expectations.   I think that's unfair to both of us.  For me, the dance stops.  Most of these higher functioning BPDs, including my boyfriend, know there is seriously something wrong and my boyfriend happens to know what *is* wrong.  Most of them also know to pay their rent and mortgage payments on time, feed themselves and stop at red lights.  I think I'm going to let go of him, let him take responsibility for his part of the relationship and stop loving enough for the both of us.  Frankly, I think that will mean the end.  But then again, I doubt God intended me for anything other than a healthy relationship.  But then again, maybe it will mean he gets the help he needs and the tools he needs to be with me.  That's not up to me.  My life is my responsibility and it's time I started doing what I expect him to do.

I'll chime in on this very interesting discussion. I was at a retreat a couple of weeks ago and got into a conversation with a woman who teaches pre-schoolers and I asked her what she did specifically, e.g., alphabet, numbers, etc. She said they did that but more important were things like teaching kids not to bite! We talked more and she said that very often young children (think BPD) do not realize that if they take a toy away from another child that the tears of the other child are the consequence of the theft. Basically, this education about the alphabet is also about helping children develop social capacities (that a BPD never developed). My ex simply did not understand how much pain his behavior caused. He could empathize with people when HE had nothing to do with it. I attribute this to his adult part, limited as it was. My ex had a strong N component because he is HF--no way could he admit something that would make him feel shame. That said: he was smart and he knew where my buttons were and so if he could threaten subtly or otherwise some kind of abandonment he would do it. Why? Because having control of the situation trumped any concern for my feelings that might be involved and teasing me with abandonment (again subtly) would mean he was in control. I think that he did this as a learned survival mechanism. I am not even sure he was conscious of it, but I know that I gave away my power in those situations when I reflect on it now. I agree that this is complicated and the task at hand is to learn about ourselves. Do we have a propensity to give away our power? I am not suggesting that r/s's should be power contests, but that we should be aware of our needs and not efface them. It's OK to have them.

Diotima

Hi Truely,

I have a hard time forgiving myself in some aspects the biggest isn't the relationship that went "Bad" as I now realize after years of the thinking if I did this or that or after he left if I changed this or that he would come back etc... Once learning and still learning of BPD/NPD the AHA moment as everyone says I know and actually deep down knew I did everything and beyond I could do and beat that horse dead many times over.

I am and have been working on me . I learned very early on this past year myself I had married my mother in every way so let my work begin and hopefully the courage to find someone like you have .

My biggest regret that I can't change that hurts to the core and guilt is the years lost with my kids my youngest was 14 and now 20 he and his 15 and a half year old brother got through and graduated H.S. and my 19 year old battled cancer at the time while I was holed up in my room consumed with grief I cannot ever go back in time and change that . My sons are stronger than me and hopefully I didn't damage them... .and to think the "jerk"put it mildly supposedly left and would still stick by it to this day because of an argument with my 21 year old son ... My Husband left me broke and broken 2 days after Christmas my son with cancer over an argument.

He did one decent thing stayed married to me so we could have insurance for my sons treatment the next 2 years then met someone a year later lives with her now.

He told me last year he has no plans to divorce me or plans to ever get remarried so when I have the courage and strength I will file pro-se.

Diotima

You bring about a great point my H also I believe HF as he has been at the same job almost 15 years of corse with great benefits like full pay disability up to 6 months at a time as often as needed which he has probably totalled working truthfully half or a little more of those 15 years and many times out on various disabilities .

He would very often see the wounding and hurting done to other people and even jump in for the underdog and be the hero or give advice always he even jumped in the middle of a fight and took a broken nose for my eldest when we first started going out when a neighbor who was much older started a fight with my son(his own dad who was present didn't even help) and I thought WOW this guy is great this isn't even his kid.

Boy was I mistaken 5 years later he painted this son black forever still claims he is the reason he left me over an argument.

Reading your post brought that back his "Hero" image in others eyes but as we know at home we know after some time we never see a hero more like satan under that costume and mask of superman.

Zena: yes, my ex was great with the underdog. He never failed to give the homeless guy change and his politics are progressive. Everyone loves him; he is the life of the party. It is only the people who get in close who get loaded with a pile of s**t. His eldest daughter remarked on this: "they don't know him, do they?"

D

|iiii  Very true, SB.

For anyone else who is struggling with this idea of reference concerning evil and malevolence- you may well be dealing with a malignant narcissist rather than a Borderline.  Malignant Narcissists subsume others into their World and use people as satellite extensions. If the satellite is not working properly, it's is "whacked"  until it starts delivering narcissistic supply (proper attention) or it's permanently discarded.

In order to find out if this is the part you played you must ask yourself, did I serve this person or did this person serve me? Sometimes the answer is esoterically the same, but small details make the significance between the Borderline's distorted perceptions of slavery and bondage come to light. Borderline is a persecution complex for the failure to be self sufficient. Narcissists have persecution for the failure to be a grandiose false self.  When confronted with the failure of the false self, Narcissists lash out.

Ask yourself, did I sacrifice myself to do work for this person while they took the credit? Malignant narcissist.  Is this person a beacon of narcissism, searching out the narcissistic signals of others like a lighthouse? Malignant narcissist. In the areas of Church, little league, volunteerism, etc. -is this person self serving? = Malignant Narcissist.

Borderlines are not the same. You'll know when you come to terms with your own family structure. Children of Narcissists think everyone is a Narcissist. When a Borderline presents as a Narcissist, a child raised in a Narcissistic family automatically assumes the Borderline is a Narcissist only to find out later that the Borderline is a deficient ego rather than a grandiose self.  Since Borderlines are child like they day dream and agree with other peoples day dreams. The Narcissist does not agree with others- others agree with him.

So when you are in recovery from the aftermath of a cluster B relationship, you must be honest with yourself- what exactly did you do? Did you serve this person? Or did you allow this person to serve you? If it's the former, then you are dealing with a Narcissist. And yes, they enjoy inflicting pain.

Borderlines do not have enough of an ego to even put *intention to cause evil* into play unless it is in defensive posturing and grandstanding to hide their abandonment and engulfment fears. It's a requirement of the pendulum swing of the disorder, but it is not psychopathically motivated as gleeful or pleasurable. It is suffering at it's fundamental core.

Also: the high functioning BPDs have narcissistic traits, which makes this whole thing confusing when on the other end of it. My ex's main motivation was deflecting his own pain and not facing himself or taking responsibility for anything, but he was not above figuring out what would push my buttons and hurt me if it meant he could stay in control. He liked being the center of attention everywhere out in the world and so could present as a narcissist (grandiose aspirations covering up the big void), but he was primarily a BPD.


2010: I wonder about this. My ex loved to be waited on and catered to (felt entitled to it) and he got petulant and whiny when I didn't do this--and of course threw all my "neglect" up at me during the break up. So, while I did cater to him a bit more than I would normally do in a r/s, it was never enough--but he was definitely a BPD even though I was supposed to serve him. He served me only when it did something to fill his needs, e.g., he could look like a knight in shining armor and when he perceived me as in his control (whether or not I was).

Diotima

Yep, this aspect caused me much confusion.  My ex - a university lecturer and Philosophy graduate with progressive politics - hates capitalists, teaches feminist theory (but i'm sure now has some deep rooted hatred of women  ) - did voluntary work with the homeless, great dad, carer of his brother with learning difficulties etc etc. . .how could this man be a bad guy!  He loved the attention and adoration from others that this gave him though.  He once said to me "you don't like superficial compliments do you, me i can't get enough of them" - says it all.

But no i never felt like i served him. . .and he never acted petulant or complained that i didn't do enough for him. . .except at the end when i came tumbling off the pedestal.


This was when he was at his most narcissistic. . .when he knew he had hurt/done something wrong/felt like he was losing control. . .and was going to self destruct another relationship - but he couldn't be his fault.  And, the one thing that chills me to the bone is his smug satisfaction if he thinks he's got away with stuff again.  But i think his narcissism compensates for his feelings of shame, self-loathing or is a reaction to any criticism to protect his deep feelings of worthlessness.

What i also found strange was in our arguments before i ended it (and didn't know about BPD/NPD) - although his emotional manipulation was weakening me - every now and then i would find the strength to have a go back - and when i really asserted myself (over infidelity issues) he would become little boy like and say he wasn't good enough for me etc.  I don't know if you would see this in a true narcissist?

Also, he does have some ability to reflect. . .when he comes down off his narcissistic horse, i think he has some awareness of the destruction he causes. . .no true remorse and won't be fully accountable. . .but he's aware he hurts and does say sorry. . .but wants you to forgive and forget without him really having to do anything about it.

sm: sounds like we were involved with the same man. My ex is a university professor (philosophy) as well, but he doesn't teach feminist theory. He does have a deep-seated hatred of women (I met his BPD mother and can see how that came to be). He loved his two daughters, or rather he was enmeshed with one of them (she could do no wrong and was/is a princess) but he triangulated her with the other daughter, who won't speak to him. However, mine did complain about me not doing enough for him when he was splitting (which was fairly frequent). No true remorse either and occasionally would apologize for something when confronted but it didn't issue in any changes of behavior. Mine was a serial cheater--seemed to have no control over it. Ultimately I couldn't stand the infidelity and always knew when it was happening because he would suddenly lose 100% interest in me, which hurt like hell. Good riddance to him (them).

Diotima

Mine seemed to enjoy being the victim so much that her voice would suddenly have purpose and intensity. If she had perceived I'd wronged her, the tone would alter and there would be a reason to go on. Finally, something I can use to get my heart started or something else. She was sick and abusive. A RO on her ex after she attacked him, locking him out for two years and then one on me, locking me out for two years. I'd say that she got something out of inflicting pain. Her parents may have given her a pat on the back for being their good little victim waif again, incapable of being in a loving relationship. Why did her parents push her to get these orders? Was it the right thing to do maybe? Can't say it's right due to the false statements and alienating children from good parents.

I think they get something out of inflicting pain too--trying to get back in control. Mine would get a glint in his eye... .thrive on chaos, etc.

Diotima

 As SM and Diotoma note, the higher functioning ones have a lot of narcissitic traits, and often have other disorders, including other personality disorders with the BPD... very common for males to be BPD/NPD...

As BPD is a spectrum disorder, people will have a range of ability for reflection, insight, empathy and overall coping skills. This is why its so hard to spot a high functioning, one as they are usually quite successful in their professional lives...

So some may not be as vindictive as others, but to say they are not vindictive when dysregulated or decompensating is not really accurate... BPD's are known to make false allegations of abuse, sue their T & psychiatrists, engage in high conflict in divorce and custody matters. Their vindictiveness and not being able to "walk the middle path, let go" is part of their disorder...

My ex h BPD/NPD was a T... the false self ego part was the "nice guy", very empathetic and helpful to others, community causes, etc... BUT not with those closest to him, very narcissitic... Like Diotoma, would split his daughters, one was the 'perfect", one, and to the other he was very polite to but very distant...

I'd like to jump in with my 2 cents . I agree with the last few posts . My H I believe is primary BPD and a close second NPD as I am just learning over the last year of this stuff... One thing I have known he is afflicted with and he will gladly admit to being extremely OCD or as I have learned there is an Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder a bit different and can't be helped with medicine like OCD and he fits those symptoms more so another PD for him and that has gotten worse with age with him he is 47 now  and like 50% worse than 12 years ago when I had met him.example along with his daily liss,monthly and longterm lists apparently he has lists at work and home because he called me once 4 days after I left a message for him and said he had just found a note he wrote himself in his pocket to call me back but didn't put the day or date so forgot when I called. His memory apparently is possibly getting worse too although back when I was with him I think it was more gaslighting and rewriting history than actually memory blips. Now though not sure it might really be memory...

So if its memory ought to be real fun in a courtroom when I divorce him finally not only will he drag it out because he is still full of piss and vinager but with possible real memory problems along with PD crap ... .

Maybe I should sell tickets to the soap opera to ensue to pay for a lawyer  LOL

I have read your posts and thought this also lol


My ex's parents are not alive. . .his mother died when he was about 18, his father when he was in his 30s before i met him.  When i think back, he didn't talk a lot about his parents and his childhood - what he did say was often repeats of the same stories.  I get the impression he was his mother's blue-eyed boy - his father was a police detective and i think an authoritarian who was always right and a womanizer.  There was something not resolved between him and his father before he died but i don't know what this was.

He has a daughter (22) and a son (14) from different relationships.  The daughter relationship is a bit 'princess' and a couple of years ago all of a sudden he started carrying around and using a wallet of her's from when she was a teenager (and obviously a teenage girl's wallet) and i found this a bit strange.  With his son, i feel like he wants him to be a carbon copy of him, his values, ideas etc but i think there may be trouble ahead with this.


  over this. . .when i tackled him over issues of infidelity about a year ago and which was a factor in the relationship ending, he told me at the beginning of our relationship he had been seeing 6 other women - i believe he thought if he admitted to this, it would take me off the current issue and as it was from 10+ years ago he could get away with it.  For 6/7 years i'm not sure if he was unfaithful due to as you say the 'interest' factor. . .for the last couple of years i think he was shagging around again because his 'interest' in me changed radically and was easy to observe.  But he has always in his past been a serial cheater - i think he does it as the chase and the thrill tops up his confidence and self-esteem. . .and is put in place when he dysregulates or feels a threat of abandonment.

Yup. My T described it as my ex seeing other women who would be interested in him as a "bank account." He felt he could draw on it if he needed to in order to prop himself up.  

"disgusting," as CP says about her latest incident on another thread. I never thought it would happen, but I am soo happy that this crap is out of my life. *)

Diotima

It's been more than a week now since I last heard from him.  I find myself missing that intense connection but not enough.  I am now emerging I think from 3 years of dense fog and all these memories come back to me... .how unbelievably bad it really was.

I was lonely, he and I had once been good friends, and there were good times.  But nothing and I mean nothing was worth the bad times.

I'm so grateful to finally be out of it.  I think about one his parting phrases, "Well at least now I can go have some sex".  That should have hurt me, but it didn't.  I almost wanted to hear it and some parting evidence of what kind of person I almost married.  It made leaving him easier.

I think it may be 1) projection, 2) devaluing your, 3)in the moment truly not understand what they're doing is as painful as it is (since they do not have the emotional ability as an adult), or 4) a combination of the above.

I know my BPD in the moment would say some extremely nasty things, call me names, bring up all my past trauma, and has even said I was less than human on more than one occasion. In calm, rational moments though, she admits she says these things on purpose and knowingly to hurt me, yet feels horrible that she does. This confused me, but rather than other thinking it, it took me a few times (ok, more than a few!) to practice "this is her TRYING to hurt me, she admitted it, I won't LET it hurt me!"

Howdy,

Forgot about this habit ... .

My ex even when her kids fell and hurt themselves and sometimes badly ... .her initial reaction was to ... .laugh   

Basically she could not relate to anothers pain and found it awkward to see someone in pain the lack of empathy on every level was there. To laugh at your own children when hurt says it all.

In the end if you cant undersand anyones feelings outside your own little world for me its not about them deliberatly taking revenge or inflicting pain for the sake of it. They just dont relate to it ... .outside their own constant pain.

This trait was highlighted to me when her new toy hurt himself and she thought it was funny. If you dont have empathy you cant understand anything ... .

Yuk yuk yuk

I don't think "enjoy" inflicting pain in the sense that we think that they do. It's a vicious cycle of the disorder they suffer from. I can remember early on my ex didn't even like for me to say I "forgive" her. She took EVERYTHING as an attack or in the worst way possible. I've seen her in terrible emotional pain... .the first when I wouldn't give up my virginity when she expected it. *I* should have pushed for counseling then, but I didn't ask that much about it. I trusted her. When the relationship was in its collapse, she split wildly from one day to the next. I can't think she truly enjoyed anything, and was in a lot of pain herself. I was devalued to save her "false self." It had little to do with reality. One day it'll be nice if borderline was more publicized and studied for a cure. These people with the illness are humans like us, but we should let them go their own way and seek healthy relationships.

I think my ex was a narcissist for sure. She enjoyed being the victim but revelled just as much being "right" or "just" after she'd set up a smear campaign that was bogus. All the calls to and from her family and rescuer buddies pumped up her sense of grandiosity and it hit an all time high when I became sick from being her altruistic dependant caretaker. She used that fact that I cared too much against me in the end also. Yet of course, during the relationship I would be fired if I couldn't be there in ten minutes when she asked me for help. There was certainly BPD traits also. She is now gone and taken my child for almost two years. Not a trace of her. The strangest thing I have ever experienced. Have not been online for a while so hi to everyone here. Cannot say I am missing her anymore. I am now enjoying the benefits of T, the help of this site and the lessons that this relationship taught me about myself.

You know, I think their illness compels them to be cruel and maybe they would like the option of making healthier choices, but let's get real.  These people know enough to get some help if that's what it takes and they also know enough to be kind, caring, considerate, actually almost surreally so in order to get their way.  Who cares?  As therapists and people who intend to stay in these life draining out of you relationships (God bless them), one has to take that approach or you'll never reach them.  We don't need to reach them anymore and we can stand back and look at what it really was.  My boyfriend broke up with me, he told me, many times, not because of engulfment issues but because he wanted his way.  All that unbelievable heartbreak I went through over and over because of a tantrum?  It had never occurred to me.  He was gracious enough to tell me that the last time we broke up, after telling him I never wanted to hear from him again, that this time he was not doing that, this time he really meant it.

I do not believe my ex enjoyed inflicting pain. I read something ages ago about the dance between narcissists and borderlines and it was clear to me at the time that I was the narcissist in our relationship, though I'm sure now that I'm not a narcissist in general. I'm not sure about whether I'd say he served me, though I have an inkling that it's just me having a sulk because if he was meant to be serving me he didn't do a very good job of it. ;p

But no, it's true. For example, I would define serving me as actually not having sex with other women, but pretending to not have sex with other women and genuinely not wanting me to find out does look more like serving than being served... .I guess.

But then cutting me down to make himself bigger, that he liked for sure. Is that the same or different than inflicting pain? Ugh, my head hurts.

I'm sure BP's can differ,  but I think a lot of them do enjoy inflicting pain.  I'm convinced that mine sure did.  I remember once watching a video by BPD expert AJ Mahari, in which she talked about how BP's seem to really dwell on revenge and getting back their partners a lot.  This would certainly explain a lot as to why they can be so mean, and hurt us so much especially in the breakup phase after they have decided to ditch us and they are secure with our replacement.

I think they do enjoy inflicting pain on us, the thing is the reason why they enjoy it is disordered due to their mental illness.  They think we deserve it, because - especially during the hater phase - they come to believe that we are their persecutors, their abusers, the people who are trying to hurt them.  Not only did my ex BP gf comment in her diary many times about how satisfied she was with certain put-downs of me, but she also mentioned that once her therapist told her that she was subconsciously treating me as her abusive schizophrenic mother.  In her diary, she would also mention how she realized something she did hurt me, but she seemed so detached, as if she was a total sociopath.  It's like she was in a laboratory, watching somebody get hurt and taking notes of their responses.  

For me, I was deeply in the fog at the time but now I'm starting to realize just how terrifying a situation I was in by being in love and so attached to this destructive young woman.  

I think they do enjoy inflicting pain on us, but I think the reasons they enjoy it are based on faulty perceptions of the world around them.  That's what makes their brains so disordered: they don't perceive the events around them the way "normal" people do.  

Wow! Avoidatallcost, I agree with your thinking 100%. My PBD actually told me she knew how I think and how I feel and that it was her intention to humiliate and hurt me! After she brokeup with me, she continued to ignore me even when I was standing infront of her, greeting her. She came to my party, ate my food and drink my stuffs and yet ignored me and treated me as though I did not exist, all designed to further humiliate me in front of my frends and relatives.

How can people claim that what these BPDs were doing was all about themselves and they do not want to hurt us?

I grew up with a BPD mother and then ended up with two "friends", both of whom were BPD (yea, I know, history repeating itself). One was very close and the other was a more casual work friend. My mother was very severe, the close friend was pretty low functioning and the work friend was fairly mild, maybe not even clinically diagnosable.

I believe without reservation that my mother and the two friends were very reinforced by hurting.  It gave them a sense of power and getting vindication for all of their imagined and paranoid slights.

Think of it this way- you are at a movie and the "good guy" gets one up on the "bad guy". I imagine most people get some kind of vicarious rush or good feeling watching the "good guy" win. Well, in the mind of the BPD, they are always the good guy and we are the bad guys. The rush they get from hurting us is the same rush we would get from watching Bruce Willis be the hero in  an old Diehard movie.

Yes mine is always with people with alcohol problems etc trying to be the hero, she did seem to think her raging was justifiable as she blamed me for things. And my mother does enjoy inflicting to try and keep me under control. But I'm 56 so get over it :) Thanks this I could relate to...

 I was witness to my exBPDgf being cruel to her H.I thought he deserved it according to the lies she told me about him.She would hide things from him,as to make him question his own mental sanity.She would sabatoge things.I finally told her to stop.That he had to be hurting(knowing we were having an affair) and to take it easy on him.She said she would.

I guess I have a bit of a mean streak in me as well for condoning it,but there comes a time when even I have compassion.Yeah,I was with his wife,and cheating on mine,but that kind of mental cruelty is too much on someone.My boundry I guess.

So,yes,they enjoy inflicting pain because they think you deserve it,but if they need something from you,they'll turn around and be the sweet person you think they are.Her poor H even drove her to the lawyers office so she could file for divorce to be with me.She told me that she "acted" all emotional and started crying to the lawyer about how bad her H was to her,so that the lawyer would lay into him.THAT was my first eye opener to how cruel and manipulating she is.It's calculated and cold.She herself told me that the only thing she didn't like about me was,I had a concience.She wished I didn't have one.That is a creepy and scary thing to hear someone say.Much less someone you are in love with,or thought you were anyway.

Yep, they actually THRIVE in their efforts to inflict pain on others ... .

in 2 txt's I've received today from my X-Fiance who is BPD ... .he referred to me, as the name that ONLY my dead son, used to call me by. (he is not father to that child, he never knew my son)

I ignored the first attempt to destabilize my day, when he did it the second time, I questioned him on it.

... .his reply was "I think it is cute" ... .  I never responded to him.

he is a mean, evil son of a btch.  we are only communicating bc of "issues" we need to be on the same page with.

Yup, in the end discussions mine used all the ammunition he could against me... .cruel, cruel stuff.  He knew it... .he had nothing to lose after I left him, so he threw it at me as hard and as fast as he could.  Fortunately, I didn't give him much material.

They do thrive. Creation of a crisis or event in which my ex can sit on the phone and tell as many people as possible who will listen made her feel wanted and special. She created what ever she needed to keep people in the cycle. The drama was all she had in the end. Take that away and what do you have? A hurt little child. I have been doing a lot of T lately. The gym is has become my second home. On the surface I have recovered considerably from the relationship. I haven't posted as much because I have let go and accepted her craziness. This is not the end for me though. I have come to know a lot because of this relationship and what I have discovered has made me sad. I am a lost little boy. I love attention and work very hard in my professional life to be the best I can be. Personally, I have a partner and we are practiced at the art of human doing rather than being. Because life is so busy, we rarely get time for each other between raising children and work. I have recently tried to sabotage myself again. My best friend told me that I was unhappy with my partner. My partner told me I'm not content with my life. I don't like excuses. T continues. I am altruistic and need to address how I gain self worth from saving or sabotage. I am hanging in there but only by a thread.