BPDFamily.com

Guys

I am struggling with a serious dilemma and I need a serious, practical advice - or someone to knock some sense into me.

My story is quite complex and for those who don't know is all in my past posts.

I have now been out of my r/s with my ex diagnosed BPD bf for a year. When we started dating, I was 33. We were supposed to get married and start a family last year. Two weeks before the breakup we were talking about what happens when we have kids and one of us moves overseas. Then the breakup happened under the most horrendous circumstances. I am now 37, will be 38 in a few months. I would like to have family, and I want to have children. I cannot see my life not having them.

In the last year, I have worked incredibly hard on myself. Got to the bottom of all my issues. My childhood. My mother. Stopped being a codependant. Started putting myself first. Created healthy boundaries. Created great friendships with very healthy people. Expelled unhealthy people from my life.

I've also dated quite a bit. With my newfound knowledge and me, it became very easy to recognize good traits in people, as well as unhealthy ones.

I have no trouble meeting people, but meeting the right person - a healthy one - with whom I can see myself forming a life, and who is on the same page as me - has been an incredible challenging piece of work.

I know I am not alone in this, as all of my single, healthy girlfriends of same age and who want the same things out of life are dealing with exactly the same problems. In our age, healthy single men are really very, very scarce. Those who are available are either scarred from their divorces, afraid to get emotionally involved for one reason or another, have other issues, don't want family/kids.

To prove to you that I know healthy now when I see it - I met a most fantastic guy a couple of months ago. He is completely healthy. Amazingly emotionally mature. Has learned his lessons hard. He is healthy, emotionally and physically, and has no issues whatsoever. He also just turned 25  lol  I felt like crying. He actually really likes me and wants us to travel together etc, but I know that this, in reality, is going nowhere, because of our timing.

It really is tough out there.

I have been having a crazy idea to contact my ex and pretty much ask him to have a child with me. I am pretty sure that if I contacted him, he would not ignore me and would respond.

Everyone I know thinks this would be the worst mistake I could possibly make. In a way, I agree with them. At the same time, my clock is ticking. There is really no ways around that.

I would appreciate constructive thoughts and advice. I would also appreciate respecting my need to be a mother, who wants the opportunity to have children while I am still young enough to be able to play with them as they grow old. I also do not want to go to an anonymous place or whathaveyou, so please respect that as well.

This is a very personal issue for me. I have struggled for long wondering whether to post it here. So please be gentle and considerate in your replies.

I would have to agree, this would be the worst mistake you can possibly make.  Don't bring a child into this world knowing his father is a borderline.  You do realize that even if he did agree to this arrangement he would end up with shared custody?  Do you have any idea what kind of negative impact a borderline parent would have on your child, especially with you not being there?

I would recommend joining a dating site, and get out and meet lots of men who are in your own age group.  And try not to be too discriminatory, because then you might weed out some of the good ones.  But on the other hand, you definitely DO NOT want a borderline fathering your child.

Of course it depends on the person, but I don't know that I'd necessarily see a problem with this.  Twelve years is not a big deal, especially if he is a mature 25.

I'd also have to say that having a child with your ex would be a HUGE mistake.  You sound like you have made great strides in your recovery from the BPD r/s, and you would be throwing all that away and be getting sucked back into the abyss.  Do you really want to have to deal with him for (essentially) the rest of your life?

TOOLS: When are the children of a BPD parent at risk? (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=97979.0)

TOOLS: Mindfulness for children under stress  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=119814.msg1187871#top)

Helping our children deal with trauma (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=120428.0)

The complex issue of alienated children (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=104479.0)

Shared Parenting   (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=67574.0#top)

Staying/Leaving for the kids? (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61666.0)

I hope this will help you make your decision. If you need more there are boards here specifically for people who co-parent and coping with parents who are BPD. Im sorry you are struggling but I would hate to see you be ill informed. Take care of you 

Thanks for the ideas. Check on all those.  I have gotten involved in so many networking and social groups that my social schedule is pretty insane these days. I'm living the high life I really should have lived 10 years ago. Go figure. It can be fun, but also draining - and honestly, for me, it's now really work. I am taking this Saturday off to take a breather! Discriminatory - well - I know what I want now - emotional health/availability, willingness to take calculated risks, not being afraid of life, willingness to compromise, ability to learn from past mistakes, and there really needs to be chemisty there. Not much to ask, is it? :)

Gus, thanks for that thought. He really is the most emotionally mature person I have met in god knows how many years. My ex is double his age, and is a child compared to him. There are some other factors there, however, that make it realistically probably not too feasible. But I will keep it in mind.

And thanks for the nice words about my recovery - I really have faced all I needed to face head on, on a very fast track - probably a lot faster than it is recommended here, specifically because I knew I was dealing with a timeline. I dated a whole lot in the last year, which in the beginning triggered me tremendously when it would not work out. The only reason why I haven't gone back into my shell is because I practically forced myself not to, as I knew I had to remain on the course. Happy to report there really is a light at the end of that tunnel once you go through it. Doesn't make the reality any less rosy - it is just not easy to meet the right person out there.

Thanks Suzn. Will read these in detail.

The first thought that crossed my mind as I clicked in the first link was, "god, that's a lot of work and caretaking". Ironic, since now I am in position that I recognize I've been doing that for others for all my life - while really needing it myself. I now know I need to be taken care of and looked after just as much as I do that for the others. Not sure I have it in me anymore to take on the weight of the world on my shoulders.

Sunflower... .If I could save one child from going through the pain of having an untreated parent with BPD it would make any and all time I spend in here well worth while. It would be a million times easier if you were to have a child on your own without any influence from a pwBPD as the other parent. Ya know Im all about the kids. And frankly, what you would have to go through would be just as painful. There are many more links about having a parent with BPD too... .please take the time to read them all.

I know this is very personal to you and I appreciate your taking the time to help me through this mental mess.

I know it is about doing the best for the children. It is very challenging when that clashes with your own very personal need to have them. I can save my future child from having a BPD father, but that also risks me not having them at all. Selfish motivator, admittedly, but one nonetheless. We were all in these relationships because they filled our need too - we were just too proud or unaware to admit it.

Having one on my own is not my ideal and certainly not what I want. I really want a family. I want the unity. I want and need support. I also work for in a corporate environment and having one as a single mother would really not reflect good on me. Not that anyone could say anything about it - but the reality is different. So many factors go into this. I just wish I went through this BPD hell 10 years ago to leave me with enough time to look for the right person at leisure and not have to entertain these thoughts.

You shouldn't feel rushed to have children. If you think your getting too old there are options.

www.fertility-docs.com/egg_freezing.phtml

I know someone that just had her first child  - She's 53!

Sir5r

Sir - thanks for the thoughts. Since you are a regular on the Staying board and I presume you know all the tools and lessons, you should know by know you can't tell someone how to feel  I feel what I feel. And will continue feeling what I feel. Unlike BPDs, I feel that for good, sound, logic reasons. One, freezing eggs is a complex procedure for women - it is not as simple as jerking off in a cup for men. Two, like I said, I want to have a child in a normal time to be able to be a good mother to them and play with them. It is not fair to the children to have them so late (for mothers). I think the person you know who had her child at 53 should frankly be jailed.

Don't become hopeless and make a HUGE mistake, visit the Children of Borderlines and Raising a Child board before you consider it further.  I am 42, and also out in the dating world.  It IS a jungle, and very discouraging in our age range, a month ago I was just as discouraged as you!  I have met a fantastic guy now, and trust me... .it happens when you least expect it.   I DO NOT REGRET not having a child ( I did become pregnant while in my BPD r/s) with my BPD- my life (and the child's) would have been devastated by his disorder.  You will find someone to have the things you desire- but not with him.  Just my .02.

SFF- I guess I would have to echo what the others have stated about you asking the pwBPD to father a child- if you were asking me, I would say, oh for the love of all things holy, DON'T DO IT.

I've typed my response a number of times, and end up deleting it.

In some ways, I can't relate, because I do have 3 teenagers from a prior r/s. However, I am getting older (I'm 41), and my BPDex and I had two bad pregnancy experiences (1 child lost at birth, 1 miscarriage last year-- his due date was a couple of weeks ago). I can relate to time slipping away and the yearning. I know my own chances of having another child are slim to none.

However, the reason I would strongly encourage you to follow your dreams, but with another donor, is this. You know your pwBPD better than anyone. Mine is/would have been a phenomenal father. But he's sucky at r/s and communication, and let's not forget the Jekyll/Hyde and black/white thinking, emotional abuse, mind games, etc.

Take a look over on the divorce page. It's ugly. It's horrible and brutal. My first divorce (not my pwBPD) was a cakewalk. It cost me $1000 and that involved children. I've heard other divorce horror stories but not at the frequency nor magnitude of those on that board. People are financially drained, not to mention emotionally and mentally kicked in the gut. Every little thing has to go to court. Guardians ad litem. Custody evaluations. Lies, mind games, lying under oath. Lawyers get involved for what specific time little Timmy and Annie are allowed to have cell phones, pwBPD has a string of lovers at their houses, you name it.

If you conceive, this is the person that you will need to be able to work with and be civil to for the next 18+ years. At least. Actually, forever.

So YES, you deserve to be a mother. Yes, I will support you whatever your choice is. Yes, I empathize with your reluctance to do things the non-traditional way and I totally respect that. But it is just my humble opinion that you should probably try something- ANYTHING- rather than get it thru your ex. New guy in your life, sperm bank, a friend who would be willing to provide "services", whatever. I want you to be happy! I don't want you to be suffering for decades because of genetics.

I agree with you 53 is way to old, I didn't mean to tell you how to feel!

Be a mom if you want but not with an ex that's a BPD.

Find an anonymous donor at a fertility clinic.

The child will be yours alone

Sir5r

Sunflower, I hope you don't mind, but I took a look back at some of your posts and have a few questions.

I know that this man was married when you first started seeing him. He has children from his first marriage, as well as children from his second marriage. He’s a self confessed alcoholic. He is also diagnosed with bi-polar disorder. He has some sort of sex business that appears to worry you that if his employer found out he could lose his career. You claim he is also a pathological liar. This brings up a few questions:

How will you know for sure if he’s actually divorced his 2nd Wife? Will you ask to see his divorce paperwork or will you take his word for it?

If your child is to be born out of wedlock, will you share legal custody with him?

If you share custody, how will you feel about giving your child to him knowing that he works part time at a business that deals with sexual compulsions?

If you do not share custody, will your child feel excluded from his/her Father? How about half-siblings?

Will the children from the first and second marriages even be aware that they have a half-sibling? How will you introduce yourself?

How will your child feel about his children having three different Mothers but your child being the only one out of wedlock?

If you decide on joint custody, and he remarries someone else or is seeing someone else while you are pregnant, how will you feel about the new spouse/partner sharing the upbringing/custody of your baby?

He’s a self confessed alcoholic. He is also diagnosed bi-polar. Do these genetic components worry you?

I understand the desire for having children with someone, but choosing to have children with a man you know is mentally disordered is very very risky.  I suppose if he were merly a donor and signed off all legal rights... .but even then, as the father, he could still cause trouble. If he wanted to participate, I think you would be asking for years and years of heartache. There is nothing worse then seeing your own children suffer, nothing. Its so critically important to pick someone reasonably healthy to have children with. Unless he has a great track record in this arena... .which would be surprising if he has BPD. It sounds like your ex has children from previous r/s. What do you know of his track record in this department, was he a good father? Does he have good relations with his kids and their moms? Are his kids doing well?

Sunflowerfields, I get you - the wanting a baby part! This fact ruled my head for a long time and I made bad decisions trying to fulfil my need ~ including dating men who threw themselves at me/idealised! I emotionally felt it was my ticket to motherhood  .

I found myself suddenly single, 38 and childless. I have a few BPD relationships clocked up.

In the midst of therapy I also realized my father is most likely BPD and I would not classify my childhood as fun!

My ex and I separated and having a child with him was on the cards – regardless whether we were together or not. As time went on, I made a commitment to myself that I no longer wanted dysfunction (my father gave me plenty) and cut him out of my life completely.  We were a dysfunctional match made in heaven! I could not handle him just ‘dropping’ by, just saying hello if we were in the same venue ~ having him be a part of my life at all.  With a child – I would have been tied to him - if not physically, emotionally and mentally. I even thought of not putting him on the birth certificate and then realized how well that boundary would have been upheld. I would have been setting boundaries for the rest of my life, with him around and my focus wants to be on the child!

So then came the baby issue! I always felt that I didn’t want children after 40, also now realize that ‘falling in love’ takes more than 2 weeks let alone making a decision on who would be the father of my child.

So, I am doing it solo now! In the healthiest possible way, I made a decision to go through ‘responsible conception’ – a clinic. I am so happy with my decision. A man for me will happen, a child for me is happening. The two just didn’t happen at the same time and I cannot force that fact. I do know myself well – warts and all and I am not ready to date and I also don't want to be childless.

I did not make this decision lightly and of course worked with my T to plan out logistics – work, money, health, support network etc. My child knows they are wanted and loved because my choice was a well thought out one.

Your choice is your choice – how you go about it is your choice! Yes I am fearful, yes I feel overwhelmed sometimes, yes I am more than comfortable with my decision.

 I feel almost irresponsible giving you my honest view here but here goes... .

I have a mother with BPD/ NPD.  It was awful growing up with her and we are now NC.

I had a miscarriage last year to my UBPDxbf.  Everyone told me it was for the best. I have other children.  I would have loved that baby and I still feel sad when I think about it.

My xbf however, was horrible about it, saying he would have left me if I had not miscarried... .

If my xbf had wanted a child I would probably have gone ahead with it knowing the difficulties.  I am usually sensible and level headed.

I guess I am trying to say I understand... .

Have a look at the genetics.

And then have a look at the parents of BPD posts.

Dont go there mama

Its scary hell as a mum for me.

 Ya know, I would not do it. He would be tied to you AND the child for always.

Instead, consider artificial insemination or adoption, both viable alternatives for a single mom.

Dont get hooked into the idea of him just getting you pregnant and walking away... .it wont work nicely. Not to mention your own emotions and feelings that will kick into high gear when you guys are having ( the best sex ever).

This sounds like a way for you to quickly undo the progress you have made, AND bring a child into the mess.

My guess is that you are about to turn a healthy corner, so hang on... dont contact him... and see what happens next.

As previously mentioned, there are ways for you to have a child, and without adding the hornets next of BPD into the mix.


Steph

 

SunflowerFields,  

I am with all those here that have advised against your proposal.  I have emphasized your own words in the quote above, and now ask you to explain to us where the "family, unity, and support" would come from if you went through with having a child with your ex.

You know it will not come from him.  

you'd be better off visiting a fertility clinic and using a  sperm donor.  At least the father wouldn't be involved with the kid.  You don't need the craziness for the rest of your life.  Or is this just an excuse to get re-involved with the ex?  You need to look at your motives. 

Sunflower Fields:

I am a Corporate America graduate.  I can tell you categorically that a single mother adopting a child has very positive reverberations.  A single mother bearing a child out of wedlock has different vibes altogether.  It is not a matter of right or wrong, it is a matter of "what is".

Do you want to be a mother or do you want "HIS" child?

Do you want this child to have a reason to stay engaged with him for the rest of your life?

Please watch a few Maury Pauvich and Jerrry Springer shows... .scary they are... .and very reflective of what happens when serious decisions are taken based on impulsive thoughts.

You as an adult may be able to handle having him in your life... .is it fair to subject a defenseless child to his disorder/personality/lying/addiction?  I would think that as a mother, your protective instinct would guide you to keep him away from yourself and your child.

Please do consider adoption or sperm donation.  We have two wonderful adopted children and I know of many many women who have adopted children as single parents.

God bless.

A busy year.

Have you learned how to be happy and content, in yourself?  In a year full of lots of dating?

Are you taking into consideration the effect of your actions on others?

- On exBPD - will this contact and idea be painful for him?

- On future children (tying them to a BPD father)?


Have you been in any therapy, to examine your own role in things?

I am not sure why this was moved to the Staying board.

I posted this on a Leaving board for a very good reason. I do NOT intend to get back with my ex because he is not in treatment, and I am under NO illusions I want to be in a relationship with a BPD partner who is not in treatment. I am now no longer codependent.

I have been heavily thinking of many things involved

Moderators - please move this to the Leaving board. Thank you.

My gut feeling is that this would be a really bad idea, and you have heard that by many others. Just the same, I've got a couple clarifying questions for you:

Do you just want a child? (You said this already.)

Do you want a child fathered by your ex?

Do you want to raise a child with your ex?

Because if you don't want EITHER of those other two, the first one can be accomplished in many other ways... .and most of them seem like better options.

Please don't do it. You will enjoy being a mother- but SO much more so if the father isn't BPD and you spend all your life in a r/s with him through that child, and then also spend all your life wondering about the presence of problems in the child.

I think this isn't about the BPD "dad" so much as it is about you giving up on meeting someone else. Don't give up. You might not be looking in the right places. Start thinking differently about where to look or how to identify the right people.  I don't have experience with this, but I'm sure there are others here who do- ask them for advice.

I know the clock is ticking but don't let the pressure get to you- keep looking. 

It is the genetics thing that says it straight out. NO!

Even if he didn't participate in the child's life, you might find yourself at the age of 55 dealing with a teen aged son or daughter with this illness. You have a choice to not have to deal with BPD for the second half of your life. Listen to your real life friends and your bpdfamily.com supporters here.

I know someone who had a child at age 50. I can't see any problem with it, in fact, everything turned out great for the child. He is 22 years old now.

Jojospal--  I was thinking the same thing.  Who really knows what causes BPD?  What if it's genetic?  And now you're stuck with a BPD child tormenting your life...   You can't break up with a child due to BPD.  It's yours forever.  I'd rather use a sperm donor.  At least their physical and mental history have been thoroughly investigated.  You need to look at your motives behind wanting to have the ex's child.  And be honest with reflecting on your motives.

BPD can also be genetic... .did you think of this?  Maybe you have, I haven't read all these posts, but you would end up possibly with a BPD teenager one day.  Holy mother.  Let's just forget her/his BPD dad will come to pick him up every second weekend and for Wednesday night dinner.  I'm laughing because you know, that's just not what's going to happen.  It will be much, much, much worse.  You may find yourself really too old to have children... .say when that child is 10 or 12 and the father has taken that child away from you and you might never see him/her again.  Read some of the posts on this site in the divorce/custody section.  This is what you could be facing.

You know, I'm not sure you're really done with recovery :)  Sorry, but that sounds like a plan to wreck your life and the life of a child not even born yet.

  Let me just be the first to say Sunflower, if you have a child with your ex there will be a relationship. He will be the father of your child, with all the legal rights afforded to a father. He will be in your life. He will have expectations. You will have to see him. Romantic or not, how is this not a relationship? I mean you will have to sleep with him to get pregnant right? Unless you're planning on going the artificial route, which you said you won't do... but if so... why him?

The quote above totally contradicts what you've been saying. I'm thinking of asking my ex to have a child. The later saying I want unity and a family. These are your words. 

Are u a member of and/or work out like at a health club or gym?  If not, That's a GREAT way to meet healthy guys. Especially at clubs with lots of group activities, some of them have soda bars, etc where u can sit around & chat and make new friends in a good environment (And some of them are even stable!).  The exercise would probably help you make good decisions too (beneficial for the mind, body and soul).

Just a thought... .

I'm going to weigh in here as the single parent to an adult, mentally AND physically disabled child. Yes child, chronologically 25, mentally aged 5.  Please, please stop and consider what the challenges could be if your baby were to have limitations, not to mention the BPD gene.

Life is hard, it's so easy to find child care for normal children, try getting dependable care for a child like adult, it's next toi possible, and you open yourself up to people who may not have the best of intentions.  I also have perfectly healthy children, and its not easy being a parent even then!  

Knowing what i do now, about BPD, I cannot even imagine trying to co- parent with that mentality.

None of us can tell you what to do Sunflowers, but I wouldn't want anyone to go through what I've been through and with a BPD partner (I know you say there is no r/s), once the child is here, you have no idea what the father could do, and getting paternal rights severed is a lengthy process in some states.

Godspeed!

SunflowerFields,

     Quote:  To prove to you that I know healthy now when I see it - I met a most fantastic guy a couple of months ago. He is completely healthy. Amazingly emotionally mature. Has learned his lessons hard. He is healthy, emotionally and physically, and has no issues whatsoever. He also just turned 25.    I felt like crying. He actually really likes me and wants us to travel together etc, but I know that this, in reality, is going nowhere, because of our timing.

It really is tough out there.

     My youngest Son has been living with, and finally married a woman 12 years older than him.  They have been together for about 15 years now, and seem very happy.  I wouldn't give up so easily my dear.  My Son is a Computer Engineer, and they are doing extremely well.  In his case, she already had children, and he raised them with her.  In your case, you want kids, and that will be much better for him.

Art

Sunflower,

our sweet,

Think... .genetics as someone said. Dont do it for that reason alone.

Dont do it either for this reason - you will have to deal with the ex as the father of your child

Dont do it for this reason either - you are going to mess up your ex's life and he already has plenty to deal with in his poor life as a BPD.

Dont do it either because you have someone who cares for you a lot, who IS normal and who is interested in going further. Be patient.

Dont let age be the deciding factor.

My sister in law has a husband 13 years older - been married 25 years and still in love.

My landlord is 9 years older than her husband - great team and in love still after 15 years.

One of the nicest couples I met have an age difference of 20 years!... .they are great together. (she has a cheeky grin that you just cant wipe off).

Take a brave leap of faith and give that relationship a go. Gently and in awareness.

My vote is No! to the exx,... .seriously

Thank you all for your comments. You have given me much to think about.

The reason I was struggling with the decision to post this here in the first place was that I knew I would be put in position to defend some of the things I want and some that I don't want. This does not lead to productive, practical solutions. I was hoping to avoid that by putting that in my first post.

I do NOT want to be artificially inseminated.

I do NOT want to adopt.

I do want to have my own child with someone I know.

Those are my choices. I respect those who have made different choices in their lives. I ask respectfully that mine be respected as well. I am trying to find a solution with those choices in mind.

Now, pardon me while I brainstorm.

I realize some of the things I said may seem contradictory. They are not. They are different aspects of what I want that, put together, make all this so challenging practically. If it were not, I would not be posting here.

Yes, I do want family and unity and support of my significant other/father of my child.

Yes, I realize as long as my ex is not back in treatment for his BPD, that cannot happen.

Yes, it would be better for me to be patient and wait for someone else. That also exposes me to a risk of not finding someone to be with long term and have a child with in due time frame.

Those are all facts. Which clash. Hence I am posting here.

Yes, I know having a child with him would be risky - but for me, from emotional aspect only - not genetic - his children from his prior marriages are fine (yes, there is always a risk, but based on prior results, that is not a primary risk I am concerned with)

I work in risk management in the financial industry. I am trying to figure out what I would advise my client who was in the same situation.

If the end goal is having my own child with someone I know, how likely am I to practically get there in time if my ex is not involved? At this point, ballpark estimation to me seems to be about 30%. Given that if I don't get there, I will never get what I want because it will then be biologically impossible.

I have entertained this idea for about a month. Thus it is not really impulsive at this point. That may be soothing - or worrying.

I don't mean this to sound sarcastic... .but  why are you even posing this question to us?

Your parameters and limitations leave no options.

* you won't have a baby with a stranger

* you won't adopt

* you won't consider a sperm bank

* you won't wait to find someone new

Thus, the "only" option you are willing to think about is your ex... .all other options or possibilities have been excluded... .You won't consider them. We can't help you brainstorm when the options are

A) my ex, cause he's not a stranger

B) my ex, cause I want my own baby. No adoption

C) my ex, because I won't use a sperm bank

D) my ex, cause I'm not willing to wait to meet someone new


You asked for advice. The consensus is don't have a baby with your ex, yet that isn't what you want to hear.

Everyone here has suffered at the hands of a pwBPD. It will be rare for someone to tell you to have a child with a man who is mentally ill. Who doesn't want to be with you.  A man who has his own life without you and happiness and 2 families already.

I waited months before deciding to have my first child. 30 days is a blink of an eye... .Have you dicussed this.with a therapist?

Good question. I noted that I struggled whether to post it. If you feel the question does not belong here, feel free to delete the thread. You are one of the moderators.


Where exactly did I say the answer to all those is my ex?

I am surely willing to meet someone new.

If I know the chances of that happening in due time is 30%, is that the risk I am willing to take?

That becomes a question for me. Which I guess only I can answer.

I have no idea whether he still wants me or not. It may not even be possible. The last I heard from him was 2 months ago when he wrote me and tried to get back together with me. I pretty much blew him off because, as I wrote to him, true intimacy was something I needed, and that is something that, in his current state, would have triggered him greatly and caused him pain.


How old were you when you had your first child?

Sunflower Fields:

I just watched the documentary ":)ear Zachery" last night.  Please watch it for a first hand perspective.  It may trigger you but I think that it will help you walk through you dilemma and reach an informed conclusion.

God bless.

  So let me ask you this, because I dont understand. I thought that you wanted to be a mother, and that was your goal.

What I see is that you are considering, even desiring having the child of a man that has a serious and untreated mental illness, which will put him in the life of your child forever. And yours.

What are you hoping, in the best case scenario, should you choose this, to happen? If you snap your fingers and the best possible outcome happens, what does that look like?

Are you hoping to use him for a sperm donor, or are you also seeking a way for him to stay involved with you and the child?  And if you do get pregnant by him, how do you see him being with you and the child going forward?

Steph

Hi Sunflower.   Hi!

Quite a dilemma, and a very personal choice.  I will give you a couple thoughts from my (a male) perspective - dont know if they are at all useful.

First - if you have a child with another person then that person WILL (most probably) be involved in the childs life at some point, and in some way.  Why specifically choose a mentally ill person for this?

There are lots of ways to have children.  There is anonymous sperm donor banks.  There are flings with strangers you can setup (it happens!).  There is adoption (and a lot of children need a loving, quality home).  Which of these you choose is a personal choice.  But there are choices.

As for age - and finding someone younger than you.  Somewhat irrelevant.  I would question the clarity of the process selection of mating (and tying your life forever) under the pressure of the 'biological clock'.  Right now - this biological clock trumps ALL other reasoning from your perspective.  Once you get what you want in the near term, the long term may or may not work out.  Any man that 'has it completely together' should see this and it should be a big huge red flag on staying away (sounds harsh - but given how messed up men are in your target age range - which you have firsthand knowledge of - going this route would statistically add to the pool already there).  Maybe this is my own resentment and damage after having been destroyed by my wife - so feel free to take it with a grain of salt and write it off.

So (slap slap slap) - get some reason back in yourself!  (smiles - thats a joke! - you asked to have some knocked back into you). 

Dont start (or restart) a relationship with a mentally ill person.

You have options.  Use them.  (just my advice)

It sounds like you are in the same position millions of women your age are in--getting older, no boyfriend, want baby, clock suddenly ticking fast. I don't know much about biology, but I bet the clock is a real biological force within you saying "make baby, keep baby safe" and because this man is your most recent serious ex, he is the one you think of to build the nest with for this baby. I imagine this is totally natural--we all think of our last lover as "Lover" until the next one comes around. It sounds like you want what lots of people want and don't ever get--a safe home with a loving partner and a healthy baby.

Sounds like you want

1. safe home

2. man to make baby with to share home

3. baby (created by sex with man)

The chance of you meeting The Right Guy who feels the same way about you and wants to have kids NOW is nil--love takes time. You have lots of choices for making a baby, but the only one you can see is your ex. And that's where it gets weird. Even if he didn't have a mental illness that makes for terrible parents, you've broken up, and you have new lives. Can you think of any healthy reason you would choose to attempt this with him at this point? I mean, even if he didn't have BPD, but especially as he does. But if healthy is not your goal, okay, but then why would you ask all your friends and everyone here, knowing we'll say Bad Idea if you didn't want to hear that?

I imagine the thread was moved to Staying because you sound like you want to re-enter an intimate relationship with your ex. You're telling us you're considering having a child with him, and not considering this young guy. 12 years is not a huge difference. You're considering making an unhealthy choice and asking us to help stop you from making it, right?

I hope my comment is in the spirit of peacebaby's comment above (just reminding you of things you already know):


It's probably not so great for a child to have a 53-year-old, mentally ill, twice-divorced father either.  ;p  

Great question.

What are you hoping to happen, if you pursue this with your ex? What does your best case scenario look like?

I hate to point this one obvious point out:  parents are supposed to protect and nurture their children.  It appears to me that your need to have a child is trumping this primary objective.  You just want a baby, and you want a baby now and you don't particularly seem to care whether or not you are dosing that poor child with less than favourable genes... .I mean it's not diabetes... .it's basically the "unhappy" gene, regardless of whether his other kids turned out fine, you're playing russian roullette with this child's life.  Secondly, you are giving that child at least one mentally ill parent, third, the relationship between his mother and father is over even before conception, with no hope of reconciling.  I think the only thing left for you to do is to plan to give birth in an active war zone... .in a country that frowns on single mothers and fatherless children.  Then I think you'ld have it wrapped up.

It's a very good question indeed.

Honest answer: I haven't thought that far yet.

Really honest, raw answer: Are you asking me about the best dream scenario, or the best realistic scenario?

If I were to pull the magic wand and say, "this is what dreams are made of"? He continues with therapy and gets into Schema. Not DBT. Schema is for him. And we see how it progresses.

Best realistic scenario? If I were to get pregnant, I would like him in some way in my life. How, I haven't figured that out yet.

The 'best' dream or realistic scenarios are two extremes – there is much grey in there. No one likes to be questioned when it comes to decisions and I can understand feeling defensive.

Sleepless nights, vomit over our shoulder, pooey diapers, sick baby, days off work, potential for post natal, short of money, day care is closed for the holidays, can’t find a sitter, so tired you can’t move, all your friends are at work and have busy single, fun filled lives.

In other words we need to get ‘real’ that motherhood is hard. Looking at the logistics is important – throw a BPD parent into the mix! How will that look? I certainly know what its like to have one!

When you are tired, upset and frustrated what do you think your BPD SO would want regardless? A baby is needy, needy, needy and relies on you 100%! Your SO wants 100% of you too! BPD is an emotional disorder and while untreated, you are in for a rough ride.

If you are wanting support, if you want understanding and for him to tell you when you are 8 months pregnant that you don’t look fat – you won’t get it. If you want a sitter at the last minute because you are sick and need to head to the doctor – don’t rely on it. If you want to sit and discuss co-parenting ~ again don’t rely on it. He is untreated!

One thing I realised coming out of my relationship is ~ I was living a fantasy and so was my ex. We both needed saving from our own very real dysfunction! My fantasy thoughts of having a child with him post break-up was maintaining that fantasy very much alive. I had to break that cycle.

I am somewhat healed from my ordeal (stemming back from childhood) following probably $5K in therapy. Would I want to ‘deal’ with my ex on top of looking after a new born, continuing to regain my emotional worth and energy that I allowed to be sucked dry? Fantasy land is very short lived and chock full of emotional turmoil.

Think beyond the ‘holding a newborn in your arms’ with your SO looking adoringly on from the sidelines.

Be kind to you and you will make the right decision for you and your potential child.

that you would rather give your child at terrible parent than an anonymous one, that's odd to me. red flag. not in your childs best interest.

honestly the while thing sounds like self sabotage to me.

Thanks Clearmind ( Hi! - miss ya from the Leaving board where this thread got started  )

So many things have been on my mind and some of them have nothing to do with this particular subject. Or at least not directly. Or obviously. Or to the untrained eye.

I've been thinking back in the past - what it is that really hooked me onto him. What was the moment I got that deep-gutted feeling of, "this guy".

Often on the Leaving board we talk about them being so finely tuned to our needs by extreme mirroring.

On our first extended trip together, when he took me to his home country to support him in a sporting hobby he had, we had the most magic time (of course). It was lovely, beautiful, all that one would ever want.

But even that wasn't it.

On the way back, we stopped at a gas station. I needed to buy cigarettes. I asked the attendant for my brand. She said she didn't have it. Then I asked, "how come you don't have it". She became rude to me. Like - obviously rude. I was shocked.

He was standing next to me. At that moment - when she became rude - and I got just a bit shocked - and hurt deep down - at that very moment - he blasted at her. Defending me. Threatened her to call the manager. Really let her have it. Then he started leaving, put his arm protectively around me, and took me out.

I sat in the car, in the passenger seat. He started driving. I just looked at him. Stared at him. Then looked ahead.

At that moment - I felt protected. Like I had never felt in my life. It was the most amazing feeling in the world. My eyes started tearing up. Something deep inside me turned.

He knew.

The next day, we were at the airport. He was with me at the counter, while I was checking my bags in. The airline eimployee wanted to charge me for extra weight in my luggage. He put on his smile, whipped out his airline status card, and asked her to overlook that, since he is a gold member. She told him that I was flying, not him. He smiled at her and shot back, "yeah, but I got her the ticket".  She smiled - and let me go.

We parted with tears. That was the real beginning of us. I was hooked.

He knew.

He knew that deep down, I needed to feel safe. That, deep down, I needed to feel protected.  He knew it. Three years before I did.

It was not until after we broke up that I unwound all this. That my tough, businesswoman, don't-need-anyone front, was just that - a front - covering a deep-seeded need to feel protected myself. Giving others what I needed myself.

Since then, tables had gradually shifted. I would be more and more in position to be his caretaker. Every now and then, his "protector" would come back, only to disappear again and give me the soapbox. Which I never wanted.

I'm disturbed by this thread. your deep concern with what you WANT is sounding more important, than what your child will NEED

being a good mother doesn't work that way.

I regret the thread is disturbing to you. You do not have to read it if that is the case.

I had five children. I realised too late that the father I chose had problems that today, 30 years later, have caused two people in his life to attempt suicide through the emmense issues. I regret my choice of father for my children to the core. This thread is difficult for me to read also.

It IS disturbing thats a fact.

I do wish you the very best. I know how intense the yearning to have a child is. I wanted one with my current H., but thankfully got over it. (my situation is different to yours though as I already have kids).

Yes the WANTING a child is a very valid core desire.

But like you suggest, if this thread is disturbing to me, and it is, I'm also bowing out of reading any more of it.

I hope you have had enough feedback to get the advice your NEEDING even though it may not be what you were wanting.

Once last thing, your concern is age I'm asuming -

my sister and three of my friends had thier children at 34, 35, 37, & 41

They were ready and had the right men. If I could do it all again, I would have done the same. They are healthy, financialy comfortable and are secure. The men they chose in thier lives are fantastic men.

I believe its turned out this way for them because they made mature decisions.

As a consequence the children are all gorgeously happy, functional and every night they went to bed, they are tucked in by a Mum that is contented.

Thats a huge gift to start your childs life with.

Sincere best wishes - go with the nice guy.

Sunflower - you have gotten the wisdom from many  members of this board; I don't recall seeing so many stars (senior members) in one thread... .so what has prompted this attention seeking behavior by you?

You are a smart woman, I have followed your posts for over a year - you know there is no logical reason to have a baby with your ex for all the reasons listed.  

So what happened to prompt this drama?  Have you talked to a therapist about your unresolved, "deep, gutted feelings" for him recently?  I don't really think that you think a baby is going to solve this for you, do you?

Sunflower... .if you think your pwBPD will not be jealous of a baby... .think again!  My ex was jealous of my 17 year old son and she lived an ocean apart.  If I did something for him or the best one was when I took him last summer to New York... .just me and him.  She said I am really jealous of that because New York was "our place."  

They demand constant attention and I am not talking about the baby.

I think I lived in a fantasy world with my ex.  I traveled from the US to Europe to visit her.  We went traveling throughout Europe.  She took care of me and the codependency kicked into high gear.  

No wonder... .I am having a difficult time detaching.

It is only your decision to make and if you asked for input, I would hope you would take some of the opinions expressed here into consideration in your decision. There are a lot of people on here with a wealth of experience with people with BPD.

Best of luck to you.

OTB

More of my story

My H got well in DBT and I didnt, for a long time. He left me at a little after the 2 yr mark because I was still stuck in my stuff. Eventually, I ended up here, ended up in therapy and we reconciled.

We, however, are both different people. Recovery will change him, as it changes everyone. There is no guarantee that recovery would end up with him wanting a child or your relationship... ya know? Even if that happened.

And so, look farther ahead. Lets say he made it into recovery? And he is well?

I also note that your

"this is what dreams are made of" scenario that the baby isnt mentioned.


What I am wondering is... is having his child about getting him back into your life?

Is that what is really behind it?

If so, its time to think some more.

If not, then why not consider other men/alternatives? For the most part, barring infertility, its pretty easy to get pregnant. To me, its looking more like wanting the man back.

I could be wrong...

And I know how addicting/powerful a non/BPD r/s can be... .and like others here, I am wondering what is going on, right now, to bring this up...

You could be at the cusp of changing, tho, and ready to turn a corner into a healthier space... .and sometimes, when that happens, we freak out and start clutching the familiar but ucky stuff right before something clicks so that we arent longing for our old, dysfunctional ways and past any more. I am wondering about this, too... .

In AA we talk about sitting in our own pile of dung... .its warm, its soft, its familiar... and its still dung... .and so often we do this just as we are about to leap off of a cliff into the arms of something healthy, unfamiliar and scary... Not saying this is where you are at, but something has prompted your thinking in that direction.


Steph

Steph - I know your story. I read it like a bible for many months at first. The key diff b/w your H and my ex is that your H did not self soothe with always having backups and was suicidal. My ex is very HF, with 8/9 strong N traits. That's why DBT would not work for him. Even my T (who is very well versed in BPD) told me that. Schema would be the way for him - if there was a way.

Is it a way to get him back into my life? Absolutely, categorically NO. I had though the baby was assumed in that question. I did not realize it wasn't. I regret if not mentioning it caused misunderstanding.

SB - Back in May, after he and I had tried again, and I broke down, and you comfored me, you asked me in one question (I still remember), "what is behind this? What is driving your desire to keep this r/s?" It was a great question. The answer was this. I was afraid to voice my real fears. Now I am not. I am not seeking attention with this thread. I have just bottled my needs and my desires my whole life. Now I know they are normal. My biological need for a child is normal. My ticking clock is normal. What I meant to say with my story about what really hooked me to him was not that this need for protection would be met by a child - it was related to my desire to have a child WITH a supportive man.  I do not think I should apologize for that. As peacebaby noted, millions of single women my age want the same. For god's sake, it is not unnatural. I feel like I am being persecuted here for openly expressing how 90% of single women desiring children feel and what they would really want. I am trying to find a way to make that happen for me.

You can write that in black and white? but there is no more intimate way to be eternally bound to someone than having their child... .there just isn't.

I'm an old fogy here for sure, raised five children, still raising a very young one, and doing it alone, life is hard under the best of circumstances.  The baby phase is the easiest of phases when you control their every waking moment, when they eat, sleep, what they wear, what you read to them, allow them to watch or listen to.  When they have minds of their own things become a bit more interesting, when they have opinions, look out! 

It is my gut feeling here that you are not in anyway done with this r/s, but that is purely my feeling.

I know there have been strong opinions voiced here, almost everyone telling you it isn't a very good idea, and I too, would join that chorus.

My mother had an expression when I was growing up, "those who can't learn, will feel"  It took me years to know what she was talking about, but it's so true. I would hope and pray that all of the advice given would help you to see that this isn't in your best interest, much less that of an innocent child.

I wish you the very best in your endeavor, truly I do, but more than that? I wish you the guidance, in however you best seek it out, to be  honest with yourself, and then and only then, can you make a truly informed decision.

Grace and peace always... .

Sunflower, members are not condeming you for wanting a child. It is a natural feelings for some woman.

Processing heightened emotions is not easy Sunflower. The hook you describe, the wanting a baby you describe, your need for protection are all very real to you. Compartmenalizing all this rather than throwing them into a mixed bag marked “Hold on tight” will inevitably cause some upset and confusion. Stepping back and processing all the compartments is helpful for decision making.

Processing our emotions/pain, without the dazzle of magical thinking and fantasy thoughts takes time and patience. Be patient with yourself. Healing from past pain can only be a major plus – your potential child will benefit. I am thankful for therapy ~ it will help me to be a compassionate, understanding and validating parent ~ diametric to my own childhood.

Yes there is a hook! I know it all too well and one I needed to process.

Processing BPD: it’s very real and his healing is very separate to yours. His self esteem is bolstered by impressing others ~ and you were impressed and felt protected. He needs saving and as you alluded to you did too.

A baby with your SO won’t:

- hook your SO

- bring you closer

- make him see the light

- convince him to seek therapy and stay in it

- heal your own core wounds

- be a support to you - like you deserve

Often on the Leaving board we talk about them being so finely tuned to our needs by extreme mirroring.

Yes! And so are we. Not every ‘non’ attaches to a pwBPD and not every pwBPD attaches to just any ‘non’. There is a reason for the union.

Are you in therapy Sunflower?

On our first extended trip together, when he took me to his home country to support him in a sporting hobby he had, we had the most magic time (of course). It was lovely, beautiful, all that one would ever want.

But even that wasn't it.

For me, the cycle of ups and downs were addicitive. The highs were validating for me, because I felt whole, good, nice! The lows were depressing and in a desperate attempt to be back in the good books I shut my emotions down and lost myself. Once the high returned I was again validated. This is of no fault of my SO ~ this was my own high and had to dig deep to figure out why I had developed such a high tolerance.

On the way back, we stopped at a gas station. I needed to buy cigarettes. I asked the attendant for my brand. She said she didn't have it. Then I asked, "how come you don't have it". She became rude to me. Like - obviously rude. I was shocked.

He was standing next to me. At that moment - when she became rude - and I got just a bit shocked - and hurt deep down - at that very moment - he blasted at her. Defending me. Threatened her to call the manager. Really let her have it. Then he started leaving, put his arm protectively around me, and took me out.

I sat in the car, in the passenger seat. He started driving. I just looked at him. Stared at him. Then looked ahead.

At that moment - I felt protected. Like I had never felt in my life. It was the most amazing feeling in the world. My eyes started tearing up. Something deep inside me turned.

Only you know. Prior to your ex ~ did you ever feel protected?

It was not until after we broke up that I unwound all this. That my tough, businesswoman, don't-need-anyone front, was just that - a front - covering a deep-seeded need to feel protected myself. Giving others what I needed myself.

Good insight. And its OK ~ looking after you is important and much deserving.

Since then, tables had gradually shifted. I would be more and more in position to be his caretaker. Every now and then, his "protector" would come back, only to disappear again and give me the soapbox. Which I never wanted.

Sunflower, to clarify ~ do you mean since your break-up?

Highs and lows are addictive.

 Having a child will get him back into your life... .good, bad and ugly. AND your childs life. Would he be a good dad?

I surely dont blame you for wanting a baby. Not at all... .I went thru hell with years of infertility and adopted my 2 kids, years ago. I am a happy grandma of 4 now, but I still remember that longing. I do get it. I think the big question here is, then... if it isnt about him getting into your life again... .a natural consequence os you getting pregnant with his child... .then why him?  Why not someone else? You take a huge chance with him genetically, and so I am truly wondering why him? If he did get you pregnant, would you let him know? How do you think he might react?

Schema is a great new therapy, btw, and its very promising. My H wishes it was around when he was in DBT, simply because he likes how it seems, for some, to get results much faster and he is all about results in as an efficient manner as possible. I hope he can find his way there some day!

Sunflower,

It's OK. Really, it is.

Please feel the understanding and care in my words to you.    I know I would feel the exact way you do.   

As you well know, this place (bpdfamily.com) is a place for nons who deal with, or have dealt with pwBPD.  ALL of us here know what it's like, and no one else, who hasn't dealt with this first hand, will understand this situation at all. Of course, no one but you knows your situation completely. We all need to understand that.

I can honestly say that although I have had wonderful times with my pwBPD, and have benefitted from knowing him and being in a r/s with him, I wish I never had children with him. I felt that way LONG before I ever knew what BPD was. I still love the person deep down, but I hate BPD and wish I could erase it from my life. I can't. 

I love my children! Even though they are having some serious problems (yes, some genetic!) related to BPD influence,  I am glad to have them and will do anything for them, but how I wish I could have given them a different father, a mentally healthy father! And although being a mother is the absoloute JOY of my life, I almost would rather choose no children than children with a BPD father.

My advice is still to look harder. Your time is not up yet, you can do this. Increase your "30% chance". Think about this systematically. What do you like to do- interests, hobbies, etc? How about religious background, it's important to have someone with similar beliefs, right? How about looking through these venues? Get creative. Like I said, I don't have experience looking , but that's where I would start. Maybe some others in a different part of bpdfamily.com, like L6, would have ideas.

Don't give up. There's nothing wrong with your desires, you are a normal healthy woman who has been through a lot, and wants to finally have the life she deserves. I think it's honorable that you are pursuing that. We just want you to do it wisely. You can have your dream, don't give up.

RWO

I'm wondering what your goal is in this discussion?  Just affirmation? Advice? Something else?

None of what we do here at bpdfamily.com is about criticism or blame. Since the person we have control over is us, what we do here is work on being mindful, on learning to process and channel our own emotions, so we can keep a steady course even when interacting with unstable people.

So our own thinking, emotions, and decision making processes are precisely what we need to talk about.

*mod*

We've reached the four page limit for this thread, so it's time to lock it up.

Please PM me if you have any questions.

:)

B&W