BPDFamily.com

I had a difficult time growing up with my Mom. She had many of the symptoms of BPD. She would rage for hours at a time, and really not for any reason that justified it. It was so bad that she emotionally (and occasionally physically) abused her husband and children. There was constantly a mismatch between crime and punishment, confusing me about when I was good or bad. She never made me feel good when I felt bad (she wouldn't express her own emotions reasonably, and would not validate mine). No "hugs" or "I love you" or any other caring words. She also invaded my personal space by listening to my phone conversations and searching my room.

She easily turned on friends and family. When she did, she would go on about it endlessly. Telling me over and over about how someone had been mean to her. She very easily cut people out of her life. It reached the point of paranoia. People were either good or evil, it seemed. I think she pushed away some decent, if flawed, people over the years.

Being in public with Mom is very awkward. She was always nervous about how everyone saw her and her family. If someone did the slightest thing "embarrassing", she would make a nasty remark. But, to the rest of the world, outside the family, she managed to keep a "mask" of civility. Things didn't get crazy until it was just the family again (often in the car on the way home).

My Dad is still with her. Despite decades of abuse, he has always provided for her and she is dependent on him. Mom never really did much work outside the home, though she has some talents with filing and bookkeeping. Dad took a lot of abuse, and I kind of resent him for not standing up for himself. As a male, I needed a father with a backbone.

One thing my Mom didn't seem to do, which is common with BPD, is self-abuse. I've never known her to abuse substances or food or money. Nor any sign of a desire to commit suicide. Maybe I just don't know that side of her.

I resent her endless rage and the dark cloud of negativity she created in the family. But I still try to love her despite her unaffectionate ways.

Can someone be BPD without obvious signs of self-abuse?

Dear IssheBPD,

I'm sorry for your problems with your Mom     

I also see that this is your first post.  That said there is another board on this Website that would be of more help to you.  I can't move your post but you would be in the right place if you placed this same exact post on the board dealing with BPD parents... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=7.0

Best to you

wtsp

Dear IsshBPD,

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences with your mom. They very much mirror my own. Especially that mask of civility. In my family we call it the "Picture Window" effect. When I was a teenager my family bought a house with a large picture window. We had a 6' Christmas tree that my mom insisted that we replace with a 9' tree so that it would "look right" in the window. Everything you saw in the window was picture perfect and looked like a Norman Rockwell painting. Everything behind that, however, more often resembled the destruction of Dante's Inferno. It was pretty bad. So when we went out in public and mom insisted that everyone had to be perfection when in reality our family was a crumbling mess ruled by an iron fist we just shrugged it off as the "picture window". I have come to have a real disdain for people that I perceive to be false or "fronting" for that reason.

My mom never showed signs of self abuse until after my step-father died. Then there have been two suicide attempts in two years. I would have said that my mom didn't show any of those signs (and she didn't really for 25+ years) but I think it may have just been that I didn't notice them. I know that doesn't much help your question.

I applaud your attempts to work things through with your mom. It is a tough thing to do (I've given up on it myself because it was so difficult) and takes a lot of strength (and good boundaries).

Tumbleweed

Dear IsshBPD,

I'm very new to this and in fact joined last week. Your post touched me because I, too, have a U BPD M (trying to the abbreviations too).  I couldn't believe how similar my mother sounds to yours.  She also is still married to my father after all these years of abuse, but he is an enabler and makes excuses for all her abuse.  ie "She says she hates you because she's lonely or she just had a hysterectomy." He travels often for work and either brings her with him or ships her to one of my siblings houses since she cannot be alone. 

She also does not have drug abuse or self abuse as far as I know, but has been depressed and medicated a lot for that.  I often wonder the same thing you do, that she does have suicidal thoughts but hides it well and I don't see that side. Or maybe my father prevents that behavior by enabling.  I often wondered like you do if someone is BPD without exhibiting these behaviors.  According to what I've read (the more experienced board members please help), to be diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, a person must show an enduring pattern of behavior that includes at least five of nine symptoms.  So while my mom doesn't have all nine including the self abuse, she definitely has 5-7 of the other symptoms (ie extreme reactions, stormy relationships). 

Hope that helps.  The other thought I had was that my mom was also very good at keeping her "mask" of civility too.  I remember her having a tantrum on the floor crying and screaming how much she hates me, then the phone would ring and she would get up and answer in a completely normal voice.  I was bewildered by this, but maybe this ability to mask her disorder to the outside world, may also mask some of her symptoms to her family.  Is that possible?

I resent my mom's negativity too, but I must still love her somehow for her to affect me so. 

For the first time ever, I went from limited contact to no contact this summer after she attacked me.  Now, I'm struggling with the holidays.  Do you maintain limited contact with your mother?

Mooseareloose

Hi IssheBPD,  Hi!

Welcome, and I'm sorry that you're going through this with your mother. To answer your question, it's possible to have BPD without showing signs of suicidial thoughts. It's not uncommon for a high-functioning person with BPD to not have self-harming or suicidial behavior.




Yes, according to the DSM-IV, which is what clinicians use to diagnose mental health issues, this is correct. A good friend of mine who works in the mental health field said, though, "Even if you only fit four out of nine symptoms, that doesn't mean that you don't have BPD traits."

My mother is also an undiagnosed person with BPD, and I'm finding that I need to look at her behaviors and develop healthy responses to them than it is to focus on whether she actually has BPD--she's not likely to seek a diagnosis.

How are you working through your conflicting emotions of love and resentment?

How is your relationship with your father now?

As you've seen, you're not alone here. Many of us struggle with the same emotions that you described and understand where you're coming from.

Welcome!

Your story resonates with mine.  I also have a BPD mom, with the phony outward appearances, the awkwardness, everything.  My relationship is, however, too toxic.  She became a serious problem for my anxiety and PTSD, to the point where I had to sever all ties for my mental nd physical health to improve.  That was 5 months ago, and I am loving it.  That being said, I only recommend that if you really can't have any sort of a positive relationship with your mom, because it is a hard step to take, and not always the right one.

Good luck dealing with things, it isn't easy.

Follow-up after to talking to uBPDm:

First, I never heard of BPD until my Mom mentioned it very recently.

For some reason we were talking about her older sister, who died many years ago. Her older sister was an eccentric old hippy and a substance abuser. Even though she lived in our house for a time (in a basement apartment), when I was a child, I never saw the BPD in my aunt. I remember her sunbathing in the nude (ewww) but also reading the Narnia Chronicles to my sister and I while we ate turkish delight. And I remember one day, my Aunt packing up and leaving with my Mom saying nasty things about her as she drove away. My Aunt never settled down to have a family, and may have been infertile as she did have a few husbands over her life. She then lived in dive apartments in dumpy parts of town, until she died in her 60s after her hard life.

My Mom feels she was the victim of her older sister. Numerous times in my life, she has reminded myself and others about the time, my Mom and her younger sister hid in closet while older sister supposedly raged so much she ripped a phone out of the wall. Keep in mind, older sister was many years older than the younger two sisters (thanks to WW2). When my Mom was 12, her father died leaving his wife a widow with the two younger daughters, and a fall from middle class to just scraping by.

A couple of days ago, when my Mom was in a stable mood (she is often better these days because I think she is talking medication), I asked her what she meant about her older sister having BPD. Rather than hating on her deceased older sister, she seemed to have a little more sympathy for her. But she also said that, with her BPD, she is glad her older sister never had children... .

... .uh, wait a minute, I thought to myself. Either she is admiting she herself has BPD and shouldn't have had children... .or she isn't aware she (probably) has BPD. She knows something is wrong with her because I suspect she is medicated now, and is reading a book about "mood disorders" I saw on her kitchen counter.

Wanting to keep my Mom in a good mood, I didn't press further. But I did remember, in my own mind, something peculiar my Mom has sometimes done while raging at me over the years. She compared me to older sister. I'm a guy, so I always found it odd.   Though I'm also the eldest of three kids, I'm nothing like her older sister. But if she is one of her messed up moods, I might get compared to her older sister. what the heck?  ? I'm not the only one, though, as I recall she's made the comparison between her older sister and other family members. Maybe I just notice it most when she talked about me.

Do I want to ask my Mom why she did that? Why she compared me to her hated older sister? Do I go there now, when she seems to be trying to heal? Did she give me extra abuse because she somehow made me older sister in her mind? "You're just like (sister's name)" she would say. Totally messed up.

While its not the "walking on eggshells" of my childhood, I have to watch for when I trip a mine in her mental minefield. If Dad is around, I can see the pain on his face if I somehow "cause" my Mom to escalate (a word from my past work in customer service). She is better than she used to be, but still has her bad days. On her good days, I feel like I'm talking to a different woman from the crazy woman who raised me.

Reading between the lines, I think she knows she might have BPD. I asked her how she came to the conclusion her sister had it. She was vague, saying a couple of people have told that might have been the case. Who are these people? Therapists maybe? Has the therapist told her SHE has BPD. Did it sink in?

Does she now feel guiltly for the decades of rage and emotional abuse, especially to my Dad and me, and to some extent to my two younger siblings? I think she does, but I can't be certain. I'd like her to one day come out and clearly say "I'm sorry. I raised three children while BPD. I messed up, I should have sought help but I didn't."

As for Dad. GeekyGirl asked about Dad. I get along with him. We have never been that close as our interests are quite different. He is jumpy and what I call hyper-responsible. Despite being under constant emotional bombardment from Mom, he has done well with his business (he is a professional engineer) and I respect him for that. I don't like the way he didn't stop Mom from going crazy all the time when we were growing up. I hope he understands he should have done more for the sake of his kids, and his own sanity. You can't fix the past, I guess.

As for me, I'm trying to work this all out in my head now. Finally admitting to myself that what went on in our childhood wasn't right. That it messed me up. I have anxiety (with IBS flare-ups when its really bad) and abuse substances (marijuana and alcohol). But I have a wife of 20 years and a good relationship. My wife also believes my Mom is BPD. We've discussed it at length. She has always been afraid of her MIL. My sisters husband also watches himself around my Mom, and clearly understands she is troubled.

I guess I should get therapy now that I sort of understand why my childhood was so messed up. I'm still putting the pieces together, still trying to get perspective on what happened. It wasn't good, and I need to finally heal.

Oh BTW, my Mom also severed ties with her younger sister a few years ago after squabbling over a relatives estate. I think she is finally realizing it was a mistake but she can't bring herself to build a new bridge. She can't quite admit her hate is wrong though. She can never admit she was wrong about anything... .or apologize.

One more thing I forgot to mention about the last visit with Mom:

We had a more pleasant conversation then I'm used to. Mom seemed in a really good mood. When we were leaving, I thought I'd try to something I don't recall ever doing:

As I was leaving, I softly hugged her and said "I love you".

She responded with a blank expression and stared to the ground. She said nothing.

What does that mean? Does my Mom love me? Do I really love her?

I spent years away from her, and I remember coming home six years ago at the airport. When I arrived I had forgotten how unaffectionate she is to me. Even after not seeing her for years, I didn't see much emotion in her face.

I used to ignore this lack of genuine emotion. But now that she is getting older, at some point I'm going to have to help her in some way. Will I do it out of obligation or out of love? Why should I do it, if its not for love?

My wife tells me when she arrives home after being away, the first thing her Mom does is hug her like crazy.   

It may just be that she's not comfortable with showing emotion. It's really hard to say what's going on in someone's head when they don't react at all. That doesn't give you much to work with. :) Some people (including people without BPD) just aren't comfortable with showing affection, which might be the case with your mother.

Do you really love her? It's possible to love someone and not like the things they do. Do you think that's the case?

I don't know if I love my Mom. All my life, any attempt to express my emotions around her was met with a fit of rage or a detached yet digging comment. So I rarely did it. I never let her know my feelings, and she seemed happy that way.

I don't think its normal for a mother to act like this. My sister, who has two young children, has no problem showing them affection... .even though she didn't get any obvious affection from our Mom either. I have a feeling my sister set out to purposely be a different Mom from her Mom. Good for her, I suppose.

I don't know how I feel about my Mom. I just don't know.

Our mothers sound very similar.  My mom would always compare me to her mother (who she hated) or my dad (who she also hated).  I think it's that people like this are very self-absorbed in their own issues and don't really see those around them as individuals.  The only thing that matters to them is how they feel so if someone else in their life once made them annoyed, and now you are annoying them, it's exactly the same experience to them.  They can't perceive the difference in the situations, how one situation is between two spouses (in my case) and one was between mother and child.  All they know is they are annoyed and they hate feeling that way and blame the person "causing" it. 

It's very hard to love a parent who doesn't show you affection and directs mostly rage and blame and crazy talk at you.      Although I've grown to respect the challenges my mom faced and how she tried to overcome them, and I believe she loved me to the best of her ability, my feelings for her are not like those of most children towards their mothers.  No trust, warmth, feeling of closeness or being understood and accepted, etc.  I've come to accept the situation with her - I've been lucky to experience love, real love, in other parts of my life - but it's definitely a real loss and a deep pain that I was never able to really be close to her, and actually had to give up on efforts to create that closeness in order to protect myself from further abuse.  Don't blame yourself for feeling the way you do - accept that any feelings you have are natural and normal responses to a very difficult situation - and eventually you will come to know how you feel more clearly. 

I've been experiencing the "Breakthrough Crisis". I've never had formal therapy so I've just been reading like crazy. I'm starting to realize a lot of things about Mom and others in my family. I now believe my brother has NPD, and that's why I've been avoiding him. My parents still feed his ego, which disgusts me to no end. Good thing others see it. My wife, my sister and my sisters husband all seem upset with the dynamic of "uBPDmom", "uNPDbro" and "victimdad".

My wife just told me I could have PTSD, and may have had it for a long time. I'm working part-time. On my days off I'm abusing marijuana and alcohol (can't do it while I'm working, which I guess is a good thing). My Dad, brother and I have used marijuana since always, to deal with uBPDmom. My use of alcohol has been sporadic throughout my life, with periods of heavy drinking between years of no drinking much.

Time for therapy at the age of 43. My wife feels bad, she dealt with her own problems (abusive alcoholic father) 20 years ago. Why didn't I wake up when I was still young?

issheBPD

About the self-harming, I was just wondering if you know much about her life before she started having kids?  I don't think my uBPD sil self-harms now that she's married and has kids.  But she had an eating disorder when she was younger.  She had severe depression and suicidal thoughts after her first child (that put her in the hospital) --she describes it as post pardum depression.  But she was a major witch/queen terror leading up to this "ppd" episode.  Now that she's a mom and feeling more secure in her marriage, she's quite a bit more calm and reasonable.  Still difficult in her way, but not as amped up like she was.

My parents were quite young when I was born, just 21. They have never hidden the fact that I was totally unexpected and I suspect that it was a difficult time for them.

I don't know much about their life at the time, but I think my Mom's original trauma may have been the loss of her Dad when she was just 12 (by the way, my Dad was only 14 when his father died). Mom had other trauma's too, from what I understand. One time she was talking about her experiences as a teen. She didn't say much but it was clear those were painful times.

From what I've read, my Mom is a Hermit/Witch. She is mostly high-functioning but her social anxiety can be obvious. Its the reason why I've never liked to be in public with her. You can see how miserable she is at social functions. One time, she freaked out at the wedding of a friend's daughter, and forced us all to storm out with her (I didn't feel like I had an option  :'(  ). That stunt ended a friendship she had for decades (with the mother of the bride) and left me totally confused. Its not like she has many friends.

IssheBPD, first, I'm sorry for all this stuff you go through.

You asked if your mom would qualify for a diagnosis of BPD. I'd like to put this in perspective. They argue among themselves when putting together the DSM-IV as to what to call what and where to draw lines. When it comes to personality disorders there are very blurry lines between what are called Cluster B personality disorders: borderline, histrionic, narcissistic, and anti-social. The reason is that most cluster B's have symptoms from more than one category. And it can look like a matter of semantics when trying to say the difference between someone who cares only about themselves, for example - that can be narcissism, that can be anti-social, that can be borderline. The same when someone will lie or do literally anything to get what they want, with no moral compass. There is more than one category you can plug that into.

So the bottom line is, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. If you are resonating with what a lot of what people are saying here, good enough. Nobody's family member is going to be exactly identical to anybody else's, even if they have the exact same diagnosis.

When I took my very first college psych class they drilled into us that the purpose of the field of psychology was to "describe, predict, and control." If what you read in these forums does a pretty good job of describing what you deal with, so that it helps you predict what she's going to come up with next, and most of all, so that you can control your relationship with her so that it's not toxic to you, then that's all anybody can ask.

My mom never really showed overt signs of self-abuse. However, she did do a lot of reckless/impulsive things, which is another sign of BPD. In a way, that is a form of self-abuse, because you are engaging in potentially risky behavior, usually as a way to get attention or be rescued, the same thing that motivates a lot of self-abuse in BPD. Maybe your mother was more along that continuum?

All of that being said, I think it's totally possible to be BPD without the self-abuse. That is just one more severe feature of it, it doesn't make or break the diagnosis.

issheBPD, you talk about your mom's original trauma and traumas during her teens.  Do you mean trauma that you think caused the BPD?  Just questioning that b/c my uBPD sil claims she was abused when she was a kid.  Yet her parents are completely different --in fact I think they're the only people who have really strong boundaries around her.  Any time she my sil talks about being hurt or mistreated by others, I take her story with a grain of salt, because she always sees herself as a victim --even when people are responding to her bullying .

":)o you mean trauma that you think caused the BPD?"

Yes, yes, I do think that is a major source of her disorder. Like a lot of mental health disorders, BPD seems to stem from both biological risks and environmental risks. Mom may have already been at biological risk but having her father die suddenly when she was at such vulnerable age must have been the kind of thing brings on BPD. Other things, like sexual abuse, are perhaps too difficult for me to even consider.

Keep in mind, your SIL could have been abused by someone other than her parents. Any adult in a position of trust can damage a child. I haven't come across anything yet about BPD-sufferers faking child abuse, so I can't say any more.

As to always seeing herself as a victim. Yeah, even as her child, I was guilted and shamed when I tried to respond to her rages. She started lots of circular and no-win arguments which hurt my ability to stand up for myself in all parts of my life. No matter what I said or how much I apologized, the mother kept the emotional attack going until I just stood there not saying anything... .  waiting for it to end. To this day, I don't know how to handle face-to-face confrontations, like when my brother has one of his temper tantrums.

Actually, I guess people with BPD could fake child abuse. I mean, why not? They seem to have general problems with what is truth and reality. What a horrible thing to do though. 

I know my Mom has repeatedly told a story about how her older sister abused her and had a violent temper. I really don't think her older sister was violent or abusive. Mind you, her older sister may have changed later in life. This is the same older sister my Mom used to project on to me. "You're being just like (older sister)".

mindfullness,

I think the main thing is whether the BPD sufferer goes inward or outward with their anger/self-hate. My Mom went outward, trying to pass it on to everyone else around her. To the extent she hurt herself, it was in isolating herself and ending relationships. Now that she is apparently getting better (fingers crossed), I can tell she regrets not having certain people in her life anymore.

"So the bottom line is, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck."

More or less exactly what my wife said. It could be some combo of disorders, but BPD appears to be the main thing Mom has.

"If what you read in these forums does a pretty good job of describing what you deal with, so that it helps you predict what she's going to come up with next, and most of all, so that you can control your relationship with her so that it's not toxic to you, then that's all anybody can ask."

At this point its about creating a relationship with her that I could never have growing up and throughout my life. She must be in therapy. Lots of damage done, but I'm willing to forgive her. I just wish she could show affection to me and my siblings. I hug her but the she has difficultly hugging back. I say "I love you" and she stares to the floor.

The only aggressive behaviour I experienced this Christmas was from my brother (narcissistic rage, I believe), but that's whole other kettle of fish (easy to limit or end contact with him).

"At this point its about creating a relationship with her that I could never have growing up and throughout my life."

I just hope you aren't setting yourself up to be hurt.

Point taken, InaMinorRole.

Something else I need to get off my chest:

When I went to University, my uBPDmom decided to go to University too. She had left University when she was pregnant with me. I have nothing against the fact that she wanted to resume her education at that time in her life, especially considering she wasn't working and hadn't held a job for decades. She also had no choice but to go the one University in the city we lived in at the time (my Dad was working at the University so she probably got a spousal discount or something).

Here is what shocked and confused me: she went into the same program as me. She took the same Major. And started doing it at the same time.

I switched Majors, by the way. Why the hell would my uBPDmom do that to me? I really couldn't process it. My uBPDmom's explanation was it was something that always interested her. But it was too much of a coincidence for me to handle.

Feeling the pressure, inside and outside.

DW is 40 and still is uninterested in having children. I feel pretty much the same way. Although we have an average income and no debt, we both have deep issues and no real job security. She takes meds for OCD too, thanks to her abusive (emotionally and some physical) alcoholic father.

uBPDmom talks up the idea of grandchildren a lot lately. She has two already, from my sister, and they visit her and Dad. Note, semi-retired Dad is around unlike when we were kids. BIL knows uBPDmom has troubles, and his family won't socialize with my family (including innocent bystanders) because of it (something happened, I'll always wonder what went down).

One of these days I have to tell uBPDmom, "No, it isn't happening". I dread that day.

(its possible one of us is infertile, but we've never bothered to check into it since we figured the birth control was doing its job)

Well, keep in mind that many people with BPD struggle with identity, and perhaps your mother gets a lot of her identity through you. Did your mother imitate you in other ways? It's also possible, although unlikely, that your mother saw your enthusiasm for your major and developed her own interest in it. Or maybe she realized that she could go back to school and thought it would be easier if you two could study together? Whatever her reason was, I'd feel the same way you felt. College is where many people go to really grow as individuals and branch out; to be in class with your mother would have robbed you of that experience.


It's not uncommon for parents (even ones without BPD) to pile on the pressure when it comes to the subject of having grandchildren. :)  What are you most worried about when you think about telling your mother that you likely won't have kids?

I don't think she generally imitated me and can't think of any other examples at this time. She was a hermit usually, watching TV with an irritated look on her face.

Thankfully, we never ended up in the same class. Maybe the department made sure of that? I mean how would a university department react if a parent might be stalking their adult child? I avoided the department because my uBPDmom was around there often, and never made connections to classmates in my area of study. Within a semester or two I switched it to my minor so I didn't take any more courses there, and made my minor my major.

I was really busy in University so I was able to sort of ignore the presence of my uBPDmom. I was very involved in clubs/societies and had an on-campus job, so I made a lot of social contacts. But I only asked women out when someone else told me they liked me (usually a buddy). I was too nervous/anxious otherwise. I'm like the anti-narcissist finding complements hard to take, and I can be really hard on myself for my (perceived?) shortcomings. Its a good thing I was able to follow the crowd in University (high school too), so I could socialize.

Back to uBPDmom, I guess I can never figure out all her motivations. But I knew her actions, which were stalking and trying to interfere with my life. Huge boundaries issues, which I also maybe had at that time. I think I was dumped a couple of times because I didn't properly understand boundaries. my-issues I had a breakdown after my second year of University, when I almost dropped-out and engaged in heavy substance abuse. I think the source of my breakdown was uBPDmom. It was then that I switched my major and minor. I wish I had seen a therapist at the time, but my Mom's anti-therapist belief was in my head. my-issues

Even if she wasn't disturbed, no parent should do that to their child, ever. I had trouble in HS, was almost expelled and was thrown in the drunk-tank at 16. My grades were barely acceptable for entering University. I needed emotional support from uBPDmom not weirdness and raging.

Re: not having kids. I don't know how she'll react. She seems mentally better lately. Often acting much different than I've ever known before. DW notices it too, so I know its not just me who realizes it. Its the unknown that I dread.

If she really presses you on the grandchildren thing you can use passive voice and say it looks like that may not happen. If she asks what the matter is, say it's personal and you don't wish to get into it. And then there's your boundary right there. Nothing else she says from that point will induce you to say any more about it. Change the subject to her other grandchildren, or the weather, or anything. But it's personal, and you're not going to get into it. If you say you don't want children it will just be a big argument. You're smart to think in advance about what is going to cause a problem and come up with ways to head it off before it turns into a big deal.

re grandchildren: good advice.

Back to uBPDmom stalking me in University. Was she mirroring? If that's the case, than she thought she was me, right? If that's the case, she has gender confusion too, maybe?

I've only read a bit about mirroring, but that seems to fit.   

BTW I believe I've mirrored before, but nothing like that. I'm not sure if doing a bit of mirroring is  my-issues  or something everyone does.

It's very possible that your mother was mirroring while you were in school. I think it has a lot to do with wanting an identity and seeing your interest in the subject. As for the gender identity goes, is there anything else that would make you think that she is unsure of her gender?

I've heard that in small doses, mirroring behavior can be a good thing. In conversation, when two people mirror each other's body language (facing each other, crossing legs the same way, etc), it means that they're both very involved and engaged in the discussion. It's sometimes completely involuntary.

I think of my uBPDmom as unfeminine because of her emotional coldness. Validating emotions is something women seem to do a lot, way more than men. Also sociability. In the past she destroyed her social networks more than created them, especially with other women.

She lacks a lot of feminine traits. But doesn't really have obvious masculine traits. The bullying and raging is more childlike than male or female.

Why won't she admit it? My uBPDmom doesn't communicate directly, never has. She hints like a mischievous child.

I didn't even know about BPD until my Mom dropped it out of nowhere when she was talking about her sister. I've tried to get her to talk more about BPD, and uBPDmom seems to admit it without say it directly. When I was leaving, she said "don't abandon me" like it was a semi-joke or semi-admission.

Both uBPDmom and enablerdad are becoming more frank about how they weren't the best parents. I think they watch how awesome my sister is with her kids and realize they sucked. But they always skate around it, never fully admitting to anything. I'm just glad to see any progress so I don't see any point in getting into a fight about it.

Yes, I'm not all sunshine and ponies. Both uBPDmom and enablerdad were negative and abusive to me growing up. It sunk in, and they now admit it wasn't really my fault... .  sort of.

I'm going to try to get a low dose of anti-depressants. Ten years ago, I quit smoking tobacco with an anti-depressant. It was the best time of my life, I felt like I could do anything. But once I quit smoking, I stopped taking the anti-depressant, and still wasn't smoking  :) but slipped into a depressive state again. :'(

I still smoke though, just marijuana. But I know I have to stop it. I self-medicate for what may be PTSD. I also self-poison with alcohol once or twice a week (I mean I drink to get drunk). Maybe if I take a small dose of anti-depressants, I can stop all that, and pull my life together. I'm going to ask the clinic... .  

"self-medicate"

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating any kind of unconventional treatment. Its a term I'm just applying to myself, and I realize it may be denial.

I've been thinking a lot about what my uBPDmom did in University. She was undermining me whether she realized it or not.

I'm realizing I have some avoidant characteristics: Shyness, fear of rejection/criticism, lack of self-confidence, lack of trust, not seeking close friendships. I mean its not to the extreme of those suffering from avpd who can't leave the house, get a job or have any relationships, but I'm not too far off.

At that time, I wasn't just trying to grow and branch out. I was first trying to come out of my shell. I will never be able to confront her on this. I know I have to let it go. But I'm going to have to go very LC with her for a long time, so I can finally come to terms with it. I don't care if she is acting a bit better now, the damage is done.

My enDad has done some of that stuff with my older brother - buying the same car as him, trying to use the same strategies at work, etc., and he does stuff like that with me to a lesser extent.  For example if I say something about a conflict I'm facing he will try to apply it to his own situation, even when it really doesn't make sense.  I think he does just have a weak sense of identity.  The only solution I have found is distance, distance, distance.  Geographical, emotional, intellectual.  It's hard to do because often there's a part of me that still has something to prove to my parents.  I want to show my mom, and have her accept, that I am a good daughter, a loving, caring person, someone who has integrity and will do the right thing.  I want to show my dad that I'm an impressive person with impressive accomplishments, that I've made a real difference in the world and I'm responsible and pull my own weight in life.  In the last few years of therapy I've come to realize that these are pointless tasks, because these doubts that my parents had about me (whether I am responsible or loving) really are projections of doubts they had about themselves.  I can never prove to my mom that I'm caring, or my dad that I'm responsible, because in these moments they are doubting that, they are thinking about themselves.  And I have no influence over how they think about themselves.  That's really their battle to fight.  And in truth both of them identify real problems in themselves, that they dealt with by projecting on me rather than being honest about and addressing in their own lives.  My mom is NOT particularly kind, to herself or anyone else, and my dad is NOT particularly responsible, he has let down and disappointed so many people.  But these are THEIR problems, not mine, to solve.  I am trying to let go of these fruitless quests to prove something to my parents, and in doing so, I find our relationship becoming more distant, but also more calm for me.  I no longer care as much what they think, of me or anything else, actually.  I still care about them (at least I care about my dad, unfortunately I never got a chance to have a loving relationship with my mom because of her mental illness), I just don't care what they think about me, or how far they're able to evolve as individuals, that much.  They came into this life with a lot of challenges, and they may never solve them.  That's sad for them, but doesn't really affect my life at this point.  Every time I let go of my desire to solve their problems for them, I free up a bit more energy to think about what I want out of life and try to pursue it.  Happiness is not that hard.  It's right in front of us every day.  It just takes a little time and attention, and when I stop trying to solve other people's problems, I find I have more than enough.   :)

My uNPDbro did the same thing with the car. My normal sister bought a car and few months later uNPDbro had one that was almost identical. Also, my normal sister and her husband ride motorcycles, so uNPDbro now has a motorcycle too. I took up cycling for the first time in years, and uNPDbro is suddenly into cycling and borrowing my bicycle. uNPDbro is chronic for mirroring, even worse than uBPDmom. He has mirrored me in other ways too.

For about seven years, I was far away from uBPDmom and uNPDbro. I regret being in the same city as them again, and wish circumstances made it easier to go away again. I'm older and the economy is less forgiving. But my DW is from another city across the country. Her loving mom is aging, and she is the only living child. We may have a good reason to leave again at some point in the future. Only problem is she doesn't want to be around her abusive father again.

The great thing about having been so far away is I fell off my uBPDmom's radar screen. Months could go by and I'd hardly hear from her. Sometimes being the forgotten child works out well.

Its nice to see you care about your Dad. I have mixed emotions about mine. He's made digging hurtful comments at me in the past, but I feel he regrets it now. He could have done so much more to help me cope with uBPDmom growing up, so I have some issues with him still.

I'm going to work on caring less about uBPDmom. But I can't reflect on my own condition without thinking about her and Dad. I only woke up to the reality of BPD a few months ago.

Hmmm my uBPDmom just admitted to child neglect.

We were talking on the phone about my niece and nephew (her grandkids), and then she started talking about how responsible I was when I was when my brother was born. I was eight when he was born. She talked about how I sat watching TV with my baby brother sleeping beside me while she was in the next room. Then she went on further, admitting that she left the house and went down the lane to visit a friend (more than once, I don't know how many times) leaving me in charge of the house and my baby brother.

Her reasoning was I was big enough to carry him outside if the house caught fire. She didn't say anything about my sister, who would have been about five at the time.

Why is she telling me this? I don't even remember this happening.

I guess its something else to discuss with my new therapist.

I think every person who has BPD diagnosed or not is different.  My mother has not been officially diagnosed and carries a lot of the same traits your mom does. I was never validated by any family members directly.  I was usually the one in the family that was being talked about behind my back, especially by my mom.

My mother sat back while my deceased father made passes at me, of which later in years he apologized for tearfully and was forgiven.  She always called me a liar.  No one in my family ever witnessed any fury of my mom face to face because she was such "a great friend and sweet as pie". 

As you said, they hide what they do to look civilized and its only by God's pure grace if they are caught in the act but either way each case is different. 

Some BPD sufferers are EXTREME abusers and some lessor so.  I think each of us has a different threshold of what we can bear then our psychological minds save ourselves and put us into our "other" world that is more tolerable so that we can block things out to survive.

I wish you the best and by the way, mine doesn't abuse alcohol, hurt herself, or try suicide but she constantly shows the classic symptoms of BPD and I still believe she has it no matter.

Good luck on your journey of this HUGE learning experience and hang in there with this website! It sure has helped me over some huge mountains as well as lead me to books I could learn about this disorder.

Sorry to hear what happened to you too.

Someone doesn't have to self-harm to have BPD. There are those who mainly direct their crazy inwards (cutting etc.) and those who mainly direct it outwards (tantrums etc.). So our Moms fall in the second group.

From what I'm reading, the oldest child faces the greatest chance to be the target of abuse. When my brother was born, my life took a turn for the worse. I got to watch my Mom have a meltdown, threatening to flee the home. I must have felt a burden of keeping the peace. What a thing for an eight year-old.

From eight on, I was increasingly on my own a lot of the time. In the morning, I put my lunch together and walked a few blocks to school, alone or with friends (no adults). By todays standard, an eight year old wouldn't do that. Mind you, it was the late-70s and people were less protective of children back then. Problem was I took my time getting to school, always arriving late, and my parents never really dealt with it.

By the time I was nine or ten, I started going to friends houses after school, usually latchkey kids. It was nicer to have no parent around, then be around my uBPDmom. My Dad used to come find me for supper, when he came home from work. I didn't always bother to tell uBPDmom what I was doing and where I was going. Dad has already admitted I was neglected as a kid.

Dad did get me involved in soccer and youth groups, but he seemed to do it more to make himself look like a good parent than for my benefit. He was the biggest loudmouth on the sidelines when I played soccer :P But at least he tried... .  sort of.

I shudder to think what else I've blocked out from my childhood. I'm not sure if therapists bring that out or if I have to wait for my uBPDmom to randomly recall more examples of neglect/abuse.

Hiya issheBPD, I very much relate to your story. I had to shoulder a lot of the responsibility running my household at the age of 8 too, and I know it's a lot to bear.   Remembering abuse is a tough process. The Survivors Guide on the side panel of this board is really helpful. Journaling and posting here really helped me get through the remembering stage. Hang onto the fact that you survived the actual events and you'll get through this too. This too shall pass, as they say. It hurts in the process, but we're here with you as you go through it.

I have to wonder how much my sister was running the house by the time she was 8. I was 11 and not around much by then. I seem to vaguely remember my sister and her friends taking care of my toddler brother a lot.

Considering my uBPDmom was supposedly a stay-at-home-mom, she wasn't really involved with her children's play. She did some of the basic housekeeping but provided no emotional mothering, none at all. She was more likely to rage at us than say something nice. Too bad she didn't just go to work and hire a nanny.

I think this is a thing that conflicts me too. My mom was way over-protective when we were in front of her. However, she would get in hours long raging fights and tell us to "go play," which meant wandering off into rural land in preschool, wandering into unknown neighbor houses with other kids, hanging out with latchkeys kids with no parents, etc.

There was a ridiculously inconsistent double standard (being allowed to go hiking alone in the desert in preschool vs. not being allowed to leave campus for lunch in high school). I think that was far more damaging than the minor neglect.

I never got into any real danger, but the infuriating thing is that she flatly denies this. She'll say stuff like "I never let you walk to school by yourselves!" when I clearly remember the opposite. She denies letting me wander around park land, when I have clearly been able to find my little hiking trail on google earth, and definitely got about 3 miles away from the house when I was 6. Which... .  awesome when you're six, pretty jaw dropping when you're an adult and know better.

Ditto. Mine was always like "I've sacrificed so much of my own life to be a stay at home mom and you don't appreciate me". In reality, she enjoyed feeling defeated and was looking for someone to blame. Unfortunately, it was her grade school aged kids. I would have preferred a work/nanny arrangement as well.

I get really uneasy every time she mentions what a great stay at home mom she was, and how other moms were far inferior for being selfish and working. There were a few stretches of months where she was a good stay at home mom, but there were whole years where she was just yelling, crying, or in bed.

I'm sorry, issheBPD and XL. I hear you both, and really do understand. It does seem counterintuitive to take pride in a status and then blame kids for that status that one has chosen.  Step four of the Survivor's Guide with all the new memories and realizations really is one of the hardest steps. Take good care of yourself. I'm reading and listening. You're taking good steps toward healing. Keep reading, journaling and taking good care of yourselves.

I had a good conversation with my sister recently. Its hard to do, as she is extremely busy. She is the only other member of my FOO who is not enmeshed.

She used the term "walking on eggshells" in reference to our uNPDbro and I also learned his mental health was worse than I realized. He's been suicidal in the past and has been on medication for many years now. Its good to know my uNPDbro's problems are understood because we all need to be wary of them.

My sister and I are very much on the outside of the toxic triad: uBPDmom, enablerDad, and uNPDbro.

Easter Dinner featured mores bizarre displays of my parents providing "narcissistic supply" to my uNPDbro. He usually shows up very late to meals making him the centre of attention. Then he constantly leaves the table to play with his laptop or PDA (which I would like to smash).

Upon his grand entrance (which usually occurs as everyone else is finishing) he demands something like wine with his meal, and enablerDad runs to get it like a servant. Its totally puke-worthy, but at least I'm not the only one in my FOO who feels this way.

I have to say one thing, my uBPDmom was very easy to be around this time. She's very religious lately, going to Church many times during Lent. Maybe her faith is giving her some insight into her condition. I suspect her conscience is bothering her.

mistake post  :)

Mistake again... .  

Whether I wanted it or not, my uBPDmom threw me a birthday party (mostly family). I never wanted it but I think she feels guilty about the past. I can't think of a way to not attend my own birthday party    

I told her I didn't care if my uNPDbro showed up or not... .   but said it in a way that showed my disdain. She invited him anyhow, since she can't take a hint. I guess I better be more clear, but at the same time people might hold it against me.

He showed up... .   no card (never mind a present which I didn't want anyhow)... .   not even wishing me a happy birthday. He just came for the food and was the big loudmouth he always is. If I'm correct, and he is a NPD and he is the "golden child" (and I'm the forgotten child... .   or at least have been) than I need to have nothing whatsoever to do with him. I guess this is something I can figure out with SET.

So after the party I decided to ask my uBPDmom about when I was born. I wanted to hear something good, something uplifting. First she talked about the labor, which I respect as I can only imagine how hard it is. But what I wanted to hear next, once the pain was over, was something about how wonderful it was to hold her first child... .   or something like that... .   you know something, anything just a bit positive.

All she could say about my birth was her disappointment when she was told the nurses wouldn't let her drink chocolate milk. Chocolate milk? That was her only concern? Maybe I'm taking this wrong, but it seems like it was all about her from the moment I entered this world  

Then I told my parents I'm on anti-depressants (low dose) and I'm now going to see a T. uBPDmom immediately got defensive, assuming I'm going to talk about how bad my childhood was etc. I definitely get the impression they went through this already with my uNPDbro, based on that and previous conversations. Oh well, they can deal with it.

Afterwards, my wife commented on how I couldn't hide the fact I hated being there. Except when I was talking to my sister, BIL and their kids. They are the only ones in my family I want to be around, as sad as it sounds.

Now I feel petty and bitter  

edit: "not" changed to "now"

Happy birthday!   Sorry it sucked (I find mine triggering as well). Maybe you can wait a week and have a better dinner with the happier family members again.

My family becomes defensive if I mention drugs or therapy too. (Or discussing any family life with my partner). I've learned it's best to keep that under silence to protect the process from intrusion and wrecking.

You don't need to feel petty. It's hard dealing with these things, and holidays make it worse.

Thanks for the birthday wishes.

I couldn't help telling my parents. I wanted to see how both of them would react. There's so much buzzing around just below the surface, its driving me crazy. What have I not been told all these years? I'd rather just be out in the open with everything.

I don't see how she can interfere with my therapy. uBPDmom has no idea who the T is, and uBPDmom isn't part of my daily life.

One of my stresses about therapy is I may have self-educated too much, and may be going in with too  many assumptions. I have "know it all" tendencies sometimes.

So yes, my T believes my uBPDmom probably has BPD. That was from the first visit, and just me describing my uBPDmom's behaviour. There may be more too it, I'm guessing. As others here have mentioned, there is often co-morbidity.

One thing coming out of the first visit that I hadn't thought about before is disassociation. My enablerDad and teachers often got mad at me for being in a daze. This was before I started taking drugs. I even remember other kids commenting on it.

Even as an adult I still disassociate. Sometimes it can be confused with the effects of cannabis, if I happen to be using it. But it happens even when I'm not using. At work, I have to watch myself so I don't slip out of reality.

I remember very much going into my own world more than other kids. My paternal grandmother commented on it once, how I sometimes ignored everything and everyone around me when I was playing. I could play well with other kids too, but I was quite happy being left totally alone.

Overall though, so far my T thinks I'm fairly sane for what I went through.

I told uBPDmom and enablerdad to consider me and my uNPDbro in NC status. I know this makes family events difficult, but I need to protect my sanity right now. They aren't taking it well, but are more sad than anything. They've dealt with his mental issues in the past, so they can't claim all is well with the family dynamic.

When I told my uBPDmom I wanted NC with my uNPDbro, she told me a bizarre story. This was the second time I heard the story, as she told it years before shortly after it happened.

B = uNPDbro

K = girl he wanted

C = uNPDbro's best friend, probably co-dependent.

B knew K from high school and always had a crush on her. I guess he was too shy to do anything about it back then. I can sympathize as I was girl-shy in high school too (probably from having a fire-breathing uBPDmom). So K is back in town after being away for a long time. They were both 30ish.

Even though he hadn't seen her for so long, he felt the need to impress her. When she arrived back in town he put on an nice suit and rented an expensive car (even though he owned a perfectly fine car) when he went to greet her. As she didn't have a place stay yet, he let her crash at his apartment (that was it, I gather, no r/s).

That's when C shows up and discovers he has a common interest with K: heroin. So they end up doing drugs and whatnot. Even though K had never lead B on, B was very upset about it.

For some insane reason, B went crying to uBPDmom. You see, the mothers of B and C were friends. Somehow, an angry exchange of emails happens between the mothers, which ends their friendship.

Not long after this, K left town again, who knows if she ever returns. I wonder if she knows the ripple effect of the scenario, how she indirectly (and inadvertently) ended the friendship of two women she may not even know :P

After uBPDmom finished the story, I said "But K is a junkie".

To which uBPDmom replied: "The point is they were deceptive." Somehow she also seemed to think C's mother was in on it too (I doubt it).

uBPDmom didn't want to get past her emotions to realize:

1) K apparently wasn't interested in B, especially after his desperate display.

2) K is a junkie and B isn't. If K had actually fallen for B, it could have had disastrous consequences for B.

3) Its unhealthy to meddle in the love lives of your children. It made absolutely no sense for B to involve uBPDmom in the first place. No boundaries.

4) There is no point in retelling this story years later. I found it amusing, nonetheless, in a sick way.

BTW C is still a junkie, but I have no idea what's happened to K :P

What I'm amazed at is how the story hasn't changed over the years. My uBPDmom must be going over this in her head all the time.

I recently met with a victim of one of uBPDmom's smear campaigns. Rather than hearing an opposing viewpoint, this person was just confused by it all. They tried to guess what it was all about and guessed wrong. I told the person it wasn't about them; others have gone through the same.

I also had another weird conversation with my uBPDmom. When I was about 18 and my sister was about 15, I knew she and her girlfriends used to sneak out to see late night movies (this was the 80s). When my sister asked me not tell, I didn't. Even if I wanted to tell, it wasn't in my interest because I never knew how uBPDmom would react to anything.

Anyhow, we were joking about this at a holiday dinner recently. A few days ago, uBPDmom brought it up again and seemed to be blaming me for not telling her. And exonerating herself. A little parentification after the fact. At 18, I was in no condition to take care of my self, never mind others :P Yep, it was all my fault.

I learned from a relative that uBPDmom fell on her head when she was a kid. It was quite serious. I wonder how that might have contributed to her mental problems.

I also learned she was taking a lot of drugs in the late 60s. Including before and after my birth. I'm not impressed. By the way, this adds another BPD trait. She has 7 or 8 out of 9.

This makes sense. People suffering from BPD often have looping thoughts and ruminations. Your mom probably felt betrayed and may still ruminate over it.


You're right, you were a kid and not the parent of your sister. Siblings are close in age and it's like a code to look out for each other and not tattle or get each other in trouble with parents.


It sounds like more and more factors are point towards your mom having BPD. Does this make things easier for you?

I believe she is trying to project her bad parenting onto me. Once again, I'm the scapegoat.

It is a bit reassuring that I have a term to refer to. My T has already said she is apparently BPD, after just two sessions. The T diagnosed me PTSD (not complex).

The new information I'm digging up is starting to wear on me. My uBPDmom also knows people are rebuilding connections and feels a bit threatened. I don't know how she'll react to some things.

I've already had a very frank talk with my uBPDmom about my uNPDbro. Some things are out in the open now.

Early in this thread, I wrote:


Well, I finally asked her why she compared me to her older sister. And she doesn't even remember doing it. She did it multiple time through the years, as long as I can remember, even in the recent past. Thankfully, other people heard her so I know I'm not going insane.

So What the heck, how can she say something so many times and not remember it?   

She seemed puzzled by my question, and wasn't angrily denying it or anything. So I believe her when she says she doesn't remember saying it.