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I have often pondered the meaning of love and once wondered whether it was love I felt for my ex (in the true sense) or was it emotional need on my part.

There is so much on the net about the meaning of love: many definitions state that it is when you cannot live without the other person, you want to do everything with them, you will do anything for them, you feel depressed or sickly when you are not by their side. All these romantic notions of love now appear to me to be more about emotional need than love.

Love to me is having mutual respect, admiration (not idealization), not wanting/needing to change them to fit your needs, not needing to save them or them save you, allowing you the space to be you, not feeling responsible for your emotional state or casting blaming, discussing relationships issues maturely, taking responsibility for your part, continuing to work on yourself to then provide to the relationship/union.

Did you undoubtedly love your ex or have you come to realize it was more about emotional need for you?

I truly loved my exBPD. But I do tend to want to be the "fixer" or " knight in shining armour". So when my ex told me sob stories of abuse- my rescuing tendencies were in full force.

I am unsure if my ex actually loved me in the way you described love. She idealised me from very early on but after an argument, she dumped me, claimed to not love me and then completely devalued me. I have been cut off as if I don't exist. She has no empathy or compassion and there's no attempts from her to be even a little bit civil with me.

I don't know how someone can just switch off true love in 24 hours.

I think the simple truth is that this is entirely in definitions and perspectives.

I loved my ex like I'd loved no one else.  That doesn't mean that it was without its unhealthy aspects.  Like Diana I was drawn in closer when my ex confided in me about her history of abuse and mistreatment.  I wanted to bring her happiness and comfort like she had never known before.  Part of that put an unbalanced slant on our relationship, but part of it was a fairly natural reaction to wanting to be there for someone I loved.

From her perspective, I think her feelings for me were as close to love as she is able to get.  Were her feelings exact mirror images of my own?  No, definitely not.  While we were together she often was open in defining her feelings for me by her needs.  Several times she expressed her frustration that she felt she loved me more than I loved her, because in her mind she needed me more than I needed her.  I have always had a close relationship with my family, and have close friends who I have known since I was a child.  She has had a tumultuous relationship with everyone she has ever been close to.  At times she even doubted that her own young son even loved her.  There were times when we would have a 2-3 hour long chat on Skype, before I would tell her I should leave for an hour or two to go have a meal with the family or meet up with a friend.  She would feel rejected on those occasions.  As much as I loved her, she was never the one and only focus in my life.  For long periods I WAS the only focus in her life.  During the breakup she confessed to feeling guilty that she had even neglected her own son in order to speak with me as often as possible.  She resented me for making her feel that way, and she resented me for not having the same degree of unhealthy fixation.  To her this was all related to "love".  She felt she needed me more, hence she felt that she loved me more.

It helps to explain that problem Diana raised, about how "true love" can be turned off like a switch.  When love and need are tied together so closely in someone's psyche, a sudden shift in that person's needs can be accompanied by a similar shift in the love they feel.  It's not love as we may understand it, but for someone with BPD I think it is the closest they can get.

No doubt in my mind i felt a lot of love for my ex partner.

Im not mistaking that for attachment or an emotional need for myself.

When i met the ex i was in no need to be in a relationship so just went with the flow of it until my feelings grew and grew into something stronger than the initial passion and sexual intensity.


In the midst of the madness my flaws were revealed to myself.

I say flaws, but these issues within myself were not present or prevelant until i felt like i was being lied to, things becoming secrative on her behalf, unexplainable nights out, random fella's appearing on street corners etc etc etc

These acts would surely cause issues in anyone on the receiving end confusion and unhappiness, so i do question whether my flaws at the time were validated.

Wouldnt a healthy person even struggle to deal with such acts emotionally and mentally?


I felt a huge loss, felt that the situation was uncontrolable thus myself trying to take control of the situation, i see now that was not really a healthy choice but when a human is in survival mode i guess they/we/me let our dignity diminish into nothing, we become prideless in our quest.

Alsmost trying to make up for all the 'abusive' comments thrown our way... .Trying to right all the wrongs in the r/s on our own. That is simply just not possible.


So, i did love her very much.

During the break up i loved her but i was dealing with an incredibly emotional and traumatic time in my life so that love was buried within all the other emotions happening within me at the time.


5 years together for me personally and a child also so no doubt in my mind about the love In felt. But, my love alone will never be enough to keep a r/s going healthily. Love needs to be reciprocated.


Question id like to delve deeper into, is, How do we gauge love?

How do we gauge just our own love?

How do gauge our partners love?

How do we gauge the level of love by 2 people for each other in a relationship?

Maybe these questions are unanswerable as love is shown by the acts we do for ourselves and others rather than the level of feeling we have inside ourselves.

As though, Love can be expressed in actions but not truly recognised by spoken word.


These are just opinions and would appreciate how others feel and view it so i can maybe open my mind to other variables if my thinking is not entirely correct.

Maybe it was both.  When we were getting along, it felt good.  A big giant bear hug felt good.  When we'd wake up and he'd kiss me and hold me, it felt good.  Then when he started to avoid me, it was devastating.  I'd wake up and he was gone, sleeping in another room.  It turned into roommates, I'd try to talk to him about it and he would growl, all I have to do in this marriage is come home after work.  Come home and then go down to the basement to watch war movies.  Oh yay, I'm married to a car in the garage.  He just couldn't wear the husband hat after the first year of marriage.  I remember we went to a concert at the park.  All the couples were holding hands and snuggling.  He was sitting with his back turned to me.  That still hurts.  I don't know if that was more the pain of my childhood, that neediness.  Maybe that would of hurt less if I had had a healhier childhood?  Because that wound wasn't healed, it was like having a stick jabbed into it.  First a soothing salve to that wound and then salt poured into it.  I loved him for going on all sorts of wacky adventures with me.  Finally a best friend!  That felt like love.  Maybe without the core wound, I would of bailed a lot sooner.

Interesting thoughts. I know there was huge emotional need on my end. That kept me tied in and not willing to let go. I see that part of it very clearly. I understand my FOO issues are about not being validated and never being told I was good enough. The initial mirroring was pure heaven and the loss was pure hell. So emotional need played a huge roll.

That being said I knew my ex for years. We had a million great conversations and even talked about our issues with our parents. It was one of the things that tied us together and kept us in contact over the years. I had a ton of emails going back years. I deleted them all now but they were genuine and heart felt. We were truthful and open with each other. She even talked about needing to develop closer relationships with people since she didn't have that with her family. When she moved in with me that all stopped and the dysfunctional dance took over but it wasn't all a game. We did have a meaningful connection but it was as casual friends. Too bad we didn't stay that way.  lol

A mix of both. Loved to be needed, needed to be loved. There were lots of good times, tender moments, and a closeness like I'd never felt before. It seemed real to me, much more than not. The bad stuff kept happening though and I questioned if this was love or need, on both our parts, finding I feel love for her but the neediness had to change. At first, going NC, I thought that absence might make our hearts grow fonder. It's actually woken mine up more (can't speak for her), and it's not as fond of her now. I've had to admit to myself how many of her actions went against her words of love, how if she lied about this maybe she also lied about that. 'Love' being one of the things I've questioned. For myself, I loved her. I went into it with good intentions, lived it as well as I could, and walked away wounded but intact. I shared real love with her, and will do so with someone else sometime, if the chance comes around and the person's right there with me. Not going to walk into such a troubled situation again, though. If I find I'm in one, I'm going to walk right out. Love myself too much now.

It's sad to think that love maybe didn't play into the relationship.  Ex and I talked about his portrayals to get people's approval.  I asked him, wouldn't it be better to be loved for your authentic self versus putting on an act?  He said, it's better to put on an act than to commit suicide.  I tried to explain that nurturing and growing the real self would help him to not need the act.  He said, I do the best I can, nobody's perfect and so I don't expect to ever be perfect.  The cop out line.  He said he didn't want to be my project.  I had to respect that and let him go.  Here, put on these glasses and your vision will be 20/20.  No, I want blurry eyes, leave me alone.  Would love be saying, I love you, I love your blurry eyes, I love you just the way you are?  :)on't normal married people help each other to grow?  Support each other?  Can't they say, this hurts me, please don't do that anymore and the other says, oh gosh, I'm sorry, I'll work on not doing that?

Another thought-provoking thread. I don't know if I can add anything more to the very insightful comments but I can say that what I/we experienced after the idealisation phase was the absolute opposite of love. What followed was the embodiment of disrespect, disloyalty, deception, thoughtlessness, callousness and downright cruelty. Even the idealisation phase was a caricature, a cartoon of love. "Love" is perhaps a mutual meeting of needs, beyond what we would do for our friends, and can often involve a degree of self-sacrifice and the relegation of our own needs to support our partner. It becomes disordered, dysfunctional and dangerous when there's no parity ie one gives far, far more and that becomes the norm. I had nothing left to give in the end - because I gave my self away through all the boundary-busting. That dysfunction is as much our "fault" as it is theirs and we need to look at why we went so far to hold onto something that wasn't love. I read on another thread here (sorry to the author, I can't recall your name) that their relationship was like an "object management project". That was the most perfect summary of mine too and, I guess, everyone here. It was ultimately, for us, an addiction. That's not love but the seeking of an intense high that fills a void that we too must have somewhere within us. In the beginning we were validated, intensely so, by our exes more than we've ever been validated before. When that goes the void is even deeper, it excavates the hole even further. The pain of that is almost beyond words and we wait for the void to be filled, the pain to be removed. Our love became a Stockholm syndrome - we cared more for the holders/kidnappers of our hearts than the owners/hostages - us. We were pleased when the person causing the pain stopped and applied a (increasingly sporadically and ineffective) balm. That's not love.

Love means different things to different people, sex means different things to different people, our needs are different, our values, morals and ethics are also different.

I remember back in the beginning of my r/s in affect we idealized and mirrored each other - this is not so uncommon in most r/s that are starting out. I thought we wanted the same things. I took these two extreme shows of behaviour to mean that my ex loved me and quickly. I felt loved like no other. We were planning trips together, weddings and children very quickly - None of this lasted and it soon headed south - love is a little more lasting than that.

My r/s was based on need for both of us! I needed to be loved, I didn't need to be respected because I wasn't. For my ex it wasn't about love it was all about need and when he didn't need me anymore it was onto the next.

So while I thought I loved my ex I really didn't.

If I was to be completely honest - When relating together on regular terms (about life, about what I needed/wanted/desired), without the dazzle of chemistry and magical thinking, his personality actually bugged me. Which is completely opposite to all of the feelings that swirled around me. That is not love!

Faded

Great questions and from my perspective:

There are three dynamics at play when I think of love:

Love for yourself ---> Love for your partner ---> leads to a love for the relationship as a whole.

It is near impossible to fully understand love unless you work on you!  Self love is at the core of any healthy relationship and where it begins. I am certain that I did not love myself at all when I met my ex! In fact I loathed myself - hence the reason why I chose my knight in shining armour who idealized me - it felt great however it was superficial.

We cannot enjoy happiness/love for another person if we are seeking out ways for them to make us happy - this is not love and this is what happened in my BPD r/s.

Without loving yourself first - we are placing a burden on others to fill our void. You will stand independent or separation to your partner and be responsible for your side of the fence.

“My primary relationship is with myself - all others are mirrors of it. As I learn to love myself, I automatically receive the love and appreciation that I desire from others. If I am committed to myself and to living my truth, I will attract others with equal commitment.” Shakti Gawain



Love you and you can then reciprocate love to another person - loving another person is allowing that person to be, not wanting to change them into something you need (to fill a void), respecting and embracing their faults, admiring them.

Then there comes the r/s - once we know where we stand, what our needs and values we want to live our life by and learn to love ourselves by building self worth, we will find a partner who feels equally committed - and committed to the r/s as well as to you!

So, if I had no idea about self love, my ex certainly no idea about self love - how could we expect the r/s to be a fruitful and healthy union?


I would say john that is very insightful!  |iiii  And personally I would have to say you are spot on!

Idealization was felt by both you/me and our ex's! We mirrored each others idealized self! That is not love its need.


Nothing else to add accept a big   and a   - nice one john.

I can now ask myself - why did I need my ex and what void was he filling for me? Many of us find it hard to detach because we thought our ex's were the love of our life - the love of your life is right round the corner - once you detach from this unhealthy form of love you once felt!

I love the sound of that Rose. And I agree. One thing that hurt our r/s was our need to bring up the past - mainly because we both lived back there 

Trusting your partner won't drag you down when you are feeling vulnerable already is a lovely feeling - not trying to fix it for you but showing you support.

Trust is everything and neither my ex or I trusted each other.


Thanks OTH and me too! I spent most of my r/s in a daze - I did not realize we were using one another. I did know that I didn't like him at times and even told a friend I don't think I love him. Oh but I had to love him, and continue to do so because he needs me and I need him. After all my family of origin (FOO) had taught me not to disguard loved ones but to handle it.

I had to be there for my BPD father through the worst of it - if I had been any different I would have been cast aside. This how I saw love in my adult years - "just deal with it and don't complain". Oh Boy!

My parents taught me my relationship skills - and they were not great! Thankfully, and 18 months of working with a great therapist I am getting there. At least I recognize healthy now.

If we think about love simply... .in our chosen relationships, we love people and things that help us feel good.  That help us to feel happy. That seem to understand us and 'get us' and support us.

We also feel a sense of happiness from helping our chosen friends and partners to feel happy. To help them. To support them, to help them feel better or bring a smile to thier face.

Generally, we treat those we love in a way we would like to be treated. And with those we chose that have earned our trust, we also implicitly understand that they would do the same for us. So love is and should be mutually beneficial. Otherwise, I'm not sure there is a point in it and we should all be anti-social headonists or robots. 

We do not want to hurt, disappoint or in any way cause harm to someone or something we love. 

I suppose there could be an arguement that says that love is selfish, because the feeling we recieve feels good to us, so we give and receive to keep that flow.

Where I think many of us have things to learn is to realize when that love... .no longer feels good.  When what we recieve is the antithesis of what we once recieved from a relationship (be it technically mirroring, or just simply appreciation).  And when it grows more difficult to give genuinely, sincerely hoping to help your partner be happy... .and it is twisted surreptisiously into something less pure an unappealing than the intention.

I used to believe that if I could only help my partner be happy by being as close to the perfect partner for him as I could, he would return to those moments of 'love' I thought we shared.

But love really shouldn't be 'work'.  It  "should" flow somewhat effortlessly. I don't believe this is a romantic notion.  Sure things and relationships won't always be rainbows and sunshine, sure we all make mistakes then have to put in work to repair... .but what I speak of is just simply being with, committing to a partner should be a shared endevour and should provide value to both people... .and in chosen relationships, they should be weighted to the positive, warm fuzzy.  Not a continual sick in the stomach, or crying all night or drama or wondering or jealous or confused... .etc, etc... .if what was love evolves to something else... .then maybe we need to change as well.  If love changes into something poisonous, maybe that is when we need to walk away from it.

So I do believe there was a real love operating at moments, but the meat of the relationship had become about need. So much so, that I do know, I fell out of love with him at some point.  I'm not sure when.  Maybe at an earlier disenchantment, then it was a fight with myself, forcing myself to stay in it because I wanted to believe that fleeting moment (in the beginning or sometimes in the thick of it) was the real deal.

Also, I do love this quote:

A man reserves his true and deepest love not for the species of woman in whose company he finds himself electrified and enkindled, but for that one in whose company he may feel tenderly drowsy. George Jean Nathan

What does love mean to you?


Big question here we need to ask ourselves is "was it love" to begin with.

I don't know if my ex knew how to do 'tenderly drowsy'. . .he needed 'electrified' for his ego, and hence you got a serial womaniser, emotionally and physically.

I did love him though, he was a fantastic person. . .I just couldn't live with that part of him, and the fact that if you challenged him, Mr. Hyde came out. 

Very new to this. So new that I sometimes still doubt weather leaving is the right thing to do. The reality is I HAVE to. For I have lost my identity. My sole. I don’t know who I am anymore or what I stand for. I am a shell of my former self. I have been isolated form my own family and finances. But “Was it love”. Man I never felt so validated in all my life. It was perfect – in the beginning. The idealisation that is mentioned above is intoxicating. I was defiantly in love and I was sure she was too. Not so sure about her now? My love grew in intensity as we got to know each other. Her love appeared instant and then gradually waned. We married in a rush and I then committed for ever and a day. No matter what. That, in my mind, is what a good husband should do. And so I did – no matter what. How quickly dynamics of the relationship changed. In the beginning I could do no wrong. Soon everything I did was wrong. I was constantly amazed and the complex constructs or “issues” that could be created. My daily routine became trying to explain myself for things I did not understand. Things I was accused of thinking or doing. All the while saying to myself “hang in there fella. Solve this issue and prove your worth. She will see it in the end”. Well it never ended. So was it love – defiantly for me and it appeared so for her – not so sure now. I like messages about looking after ones self on these threads. It helps me to realise that I need to sooth the damage within me. It helps to say to myself “keep your distance”. Because at times I still think there may be a chance to recapture those early feelings – if only I change more or she sees the light. ……… Well you know the rest.

sm15000,

Mine too... .to the tee... .However, I do think in situations like ours, we were the rock, the steady, the one they wanted to come home to.  So I do think we provided a sense of stability, of 'being there' of more acceptance than would be allowed with most.  So in that, I think there is a "special place".

For me, its kind of shameful to admit, because it basically enabled the womanizer in him... .he could get electrified with others, and crawl in bed with me whenever he felt out of control.  The rock and the rocket... .what a magnetic mix.

That is also why I don't think I'll ever really be rid of him.  It is not because I was 'special'.  It is because I was a replacement mother he never had.  Maybe the same is true of you as well.   I guess that is love as close to love as one can get with a pwBPD.

I go back to, love should be a wonderful, SHARED, experience.  We should find some happiness in helping our partners feel the best they can... .we should EXPECT from our chosen partners at minimum that they also recieve some hapiness from helping us feel good.

The flip side of that coin is also not wanting to make people we love feel bad.  Many of us were taken advantage of at this stage, because when we were blamed for our partners bad feelings, we did what we instinctively knew was right as a human... .endevoured to correct it.

Our own dysfunction was perhaps not seeing the trees through the forest, as many of us were irrationally accused and 'assisted' (manipulated?) into feeling responsible.  So our impulse was triggered to go Defcon into fix it mode... .because after all, we'd NEVER want to hurt someone we loved so much.

A good pause at the beginning may have ended it with (clearly my partner is not happy with me or we are not a good fit).  So many of us here have FOO issues, or other issues of esteem and self worth that overrode common sense.  And as much rationalization that could be done on our Ex's side, we could easily rationalize by the use of one 4-letter word... "Love".

In the future I'm going to keep in mind that when I love someone of course I want to treat them as such and give to them and make them happy... .from now on, I will no longer be a martyr though.  I will no longer pour more 'love' into a realtionship as what can be given back to me.

In love, there is economics as well.

What a great question.

Per the definition you offer, in no way, shape or for was I in love. Our relationship started under illegitimate circumstances (affair) so we could never respect or trust each other, support each other, or not blame one another. However, in the beginning I'd never felt so 'in love' my entire life. I was happier than I had ever been (I'm 5 months out, but I can say this absolutely). Thereafter, it turned to pot, and I chased the high (to my great detriment).

My T and I discuss love a fair bit, bc it's such a subjective emotion. I was in Hollywood love, absolutely. But I never had companiate love... .in fact the furthest thing from it.

Of course we all desire Hollywood love (movies, songs, poetry, etc) but we really need companiate love to function, to flourish, to raise families and cultivate friends and hobbies.

My very recent exBPDw truely believed that she was loving my by giving to me what she thought I needed. I would complain about my weight and she would prepare enormous meals. She would regularly give me lists of tasks to do and ring me ten times a day to see how I was going with them. She thought she was helping me. It was her way of loving. It made me feel managed and controlled. But it did anyway. Because if I didn't then I was not being appreciative. 

I disagree with some of the perceptions of what love is. Love IS work. It is always work. We work to compromise with partners. We work to make our schedules work to see each other.  We work on ourselves to be better people for our partners. 

Love is work every day. Hard work.

Just like life is hard work everyday, love is not effortless. And love grows by NOT being effortless.  It's when we're in relationships that hold us back from growth where there is a problem. People with BPD don't grow without specialized psychiatric help. And relationships with BPD partners don't stand a chance to grow unless they succeed in beating their disorder.  They spiral out of control.

Yes!

jp, getting back to self inquiring - do you believe you loved your ex - using your own definition?

Tempting Fate, I think you are most probably right.  My situation was a bit different.  We were together 13 years but lived 15 miles apart.  I saw but chose to ignore   what he was like with women at the beginning.  He was living with someone else but I knew he was having affairs.  He portrayed that his r/s was doomed and going through the motions - they had a young son - and although this was the truth, I didn't see what part HE really played in it. 

At the end of our r/s, I was told he had been seeing 6 others apart from me for a number of years.  We had an incident in the early years where I asked him about rumours I had heard. . .I thought his response was 'off' but I had no real evidence and so it was dropped.  I always remember him saying "thank you" to me when this happened. . .I thought it was strange but now I realise, I think he knew 'who' he would have turned into if I had persisted.

Strange thing is, he then left his partner and for many years he gave me absolutely no doubt to think he was unfaithful.  Over those years we had the most wonderful r/s - we were 'in love' or we were both filling each others emotional needs    But, when he approached 50, it and he all went horribly wrong.  I couldn't let it go this time. . .and I saw the 'other' side of the man.  Towards the end, he lost the 'excitable' feelings towards me. . .he was in a place where he NEEDED more.   He was dysregulating and accidentally out loud he called me his 'best bet', so yes, he had worked out I could offer him stability etc.

In hindsight, I do realise how the r/s filled both our emotional needs but it was love too. . .trouble for him is when relationships hit hard times, and they always will, his emotional maturity, empathy and ability to resolve were severely lacking, far more than mine.  I do realise my own hypocrisies though. . .I was willing to start an affair with him when he was in a r/s and with other women but it wasn't OK for me at the end.  I've learnt my lesson there. . .I think there was a narcissistic streak in me that thought I WAS SPECIAL and I lapped up my 'good press' when he gave it to me 

Clearmind, great question.  Thanks for asking.

You also made a great point that my definition of love may be different than others. It is no doubt a subjective concept.

Based on my definition, I have zero doubt that I loved my ex. For the bulk of the relationship, I would ask her questions about how I was doing as a boyfriend to see where I could improve.  Her opinion mattered to me.  I was always willing to do the hard work necessary to be a good partner.  I treated her like an equal. I tried to compromise. I offered support, affection, attention, and tried to always be a considerate person. No doubt that I slipped sometimes but on the whole, I aspired to be a great person for her because I wanted her to have that.

And I deeply valued her happiness.  It was very important to me.  So while her happiness was outside of my control, I still knew that I could be the best person I could be around her.  Sometimes I didn't always act like the person I wanted to be, but I'm human and sometimes I failed. But I tried to be a great person for her and looking back, I did a good job of trying to be a healthy and loving partner.

One of the hardest aspects of the breakup has been accepting the reality that I offered the best of myself so often and yet that wasn't good enough for the relationship to last.  It eats me alive. But I've also come to realize that relationships can only have a chance to last when BOTH partners are healthy and in a mental place where they're willing and able to do the hard work that is required for successful relationships.  Or, in relationships with a BPD partner, the “non” needs to learn to accept the BPD partner for who they are or move on.  They can't expect change or it drives the non to madness.

That said, when both partners are willing to do the hard work, the benefits of a relationship are SO IMMENSE for both partners. We grow, we share love, we become better people, and our happiness improves.  I wanted that experience so much with my ex.  I think she can be the most amazing person I ever met.  But she also has a disorder, and has a fragile, inconsistent, and emotionally tumultuous core that needs help.  I wish she would realize that and give herself to the specialized therapy she sorely needs. If she does, her life could be so much better every day.  I truly wish I could be part of sharing the person she can be, but I can't pretend that I have any ability to control the outcome.  That is a choice for her.

Another part that will always bother me is that I was a person who was willing to stand by her if she got the help she needs.  Most are inclined to give up on a person like her because she gave up on herself. 

But yes, I love her.  I have no doubt about that.

If anyone thinks I am misguided, I would love to hear your thoughts. I am always searching for ways to learn and become stronger, so please offer your thoughts. 

I think for the majority of us we have recognised that we did love our ex.

I personally think that denying that you really loved your ex begs the question of why you was even in the r/s in the 1st place. I can understand short relationships with maybe that scenario but long term r/s's surely there was love?


For me personally (im sure you can add/remove your own to the list)... .


I... .

Was willing to listen.

Willing to compromise.

Open to possibly resolving our issues.

Wanting to communicate openly.

Actively seeking a solution, a middle ground, an understanding for us both.

Working towards a future and a life together.

That isnt love, but it is part of it for me in a relationship. Not desparate to salvage, but a human want/need to find a resolve/a happy medium/compromise/understanding for us both.

If love can be a jigsaw then the above are a few pieces towards that jigsaw.



The ex was... .

Not willing to compromise.

Not wanting to communicate.

Didnt want to find resolve.

Didnt want to listen.

Didnt want to talk.

Wanted to scream abuse.

Wanted to force a huge crevice between us.


That is in no way love.

Our jigsaw was complete but the pieces kept getting lost. The more pieces of the jigsaw that was lost, the more of the relationship/trust/respect was lost.



Love.

Ive loved others.

I love my family.

I love my friends.

All in a different capacity, but i do love them all. On top of that, these people are a big part of my life (Family, Friends) and therefor i have a big attachment to them all. Is this an issue? i dont see it as an issue. Im happy to love and be attached to those that have equal understanding of each other, the knowledge of their own needs as well as those around them.


My family/Friends would never ever treat me in such a way that it would take copius amounts of therapy. They would never do anything to cause me trauma.


I hear people say, its hard work love is.

But i see it as something that you just simply have to be active and towards.

Its not hard for me to show friends, family or a partner my love for them in the capacity for each circumstance. Almost a natural occurance to those of us with healthy amounts of compassion, empathy and awareness of self and others.


Bit of a ramble, sorry guys 

I agree with this. You have to love them as they are because that is how they are.


You lost me here. You seem to be saying the opposite. That you love the women you think she could be if she had a ton of therapy.

Good question and a tricky answer.

I didn't think my partner had BPD until about 2 or 3 weeks before the relationship ended.  And during those final 2 or 3 weeks of the relationship, I didn't know nearly as much about BPD as I do now.   I knew her behavior wasn't acceptable to me since I was applying “normal" relationship rules to a disordered person before really knowing that she had a disorder.  That was a recipe for disaster.  It took several weeks after the breakup for me to realize that she has a DISORDER where I shouldn't have taken her behavior personally.  It was before I came to understand that BPD is a severe mental illness.

During our relationship, I felt she needed therapy and tried to encourage her to go. She refused therapy or working with me toward solving problems.  I knew I deserved better which is why I stood up for myself in trying to communicate my needs as a partner, which were being violated.  Hence, I could not accept the situation as it was. 

Had I truly known that my ex had BPD, and had I known about the best ways to work with her as a disordered person, I certainly would have handled situations differently.  But it takes time and a lot of reading to reach the point where you realize what BPD is and actually process everything.

I now know that the behavior that was tearing me apart at the time was from someone acting under the umbrella of a disorder.  Had I known it at the time, I would have tried to accept her for who she is with all her limitations.  I wouldn't have taken everything so personally.  The breakup also helped me realize that I am the person responsible for my own happiness. 

That said, I still would have encouraged her to go to therapy.  And I would have kept on her for that. As we know, people with BPD can overcome this disorder with dedication to the right therapy.  I would have given her the benefit of the doubt and supported her on that path. Pushing for a partner to go to therapy when they need it is a healthy, considerate act for ourselves and for them.  They're not happy being disordered, and a good spouse encourages their partner to find a happy path.  If they refuse, then all we can do at that point is accept them for who they are and stay or move on.

As I write this, too, I'm still learning about the disorder.  I don't think we can ever respond perfectly to a spouse with BPD.  It is hard work to deal with this.  So I don't have all the answers.  I just know that I know more now that I did before, and that I would have tried to handle the relationship differently from my end.  If it didn't work, then I would have felt more comfortable knowing that she wasn't the person for me. 

Make sense or still confusing / misguided?

I don't know what this means. The disorder is part of who they are. Even with therapy you don't know where she would wind up at. You wanted her to change to make her acceptable to you. To do what you think is best for her (you). The disorder is part of the person. Labeling it mental illness doesn't take it out of them.

My reference to living under the umbrella of a disorder means that someone with BPD has a disorder and as a result, their behavior exists under the umbrella of their disorder.

You're absolutely right that had she gone to therapy, I have no idea where it would have ended up.  She likely would have quit based on the experiences I've read about on these boards, but some succeed. 

With regard to the idea that my attempts to get her to therapy were this narcissitic / vulnerable narcissist attempt to malevolently and manipulately mold her into my own desires, I disagree.  First of all, I've been seeing a therapist for 5 years now.  The suggestion to encourage my ex to see a therapist was initiated by my T, not me.  I think it was the right suggestion because, on many occasions, my ex personally asked me for help.  She expressed how unhappy she was as a person.  She acknowledged that she had no core self or identity, and the recommendation to go see a therapist was a "win win" for the both of us.  I had assumed the role of caretaker for several months and wanted out of that role, and she needed help.  Further, based on experiences where I watched very upsetting behavior (depersonalization, crying, emotional instability, intense anger/rage, confusion, etc.), I think it's the right thing to do to recommend that someone should get help.

I've noticed that there is a tendency to think that most or all spouses of pwBPD are narcissists.  That may well be the case, but that is not the case here.  Sure I have some narcissistic qualities but they tend to fall under the "healthy narcissism" definition:  confidence, optimism, etc. 

I'm encouraged by what I've read about DBT and schema therapy in terms of helping people with BPD.  I'd like to hope that my ex stands a chance for recovery by giving herself to this therapy.  It's her choice - there's no doubt about that.  But hoping that she goes to therapy and succeeds is not driven by my personal need to do what is best for me.  The desire for her to be a happier person and to take the steps to achieve that happiness is far better than the alternative.

The question on my mind is:

Is it possible for someone with BPD to love another person or are they so self consumed that they only know what love is from watching the latest romance. I am trying not to feel victimized by someone whom I thought loved me as much as I loved her. Are those with BPD capable of love?

I was not judging you. I have no idea what your issues are. I just see a contradiction in your thinking and I brought it up. The only thing you know for certain is that she is how she is today. I don't know if your ex could get better with therapy or not. I don't know if mine could. I just let go of that outcome. I accepted she is disordered and that it is part of her. Not something that can be cut out of her with therapy but really part of who she is. I can not fix her. Letting go of the need to help her was a great relief to both of us. Can you see how that puts her in a postion beneath you? Have you ever read Dr Amadour's book I'm not sick, I don't need help? I'm sure your heart is in the right place but you place far too much belief in an unpredictable outcome.

I'll check out the book.  Thanks for the recommendation.  I'm sorry if my response was too reactive.

I can assure you my heart is in the right place.  I'll ponder your thoughts about helping people. It's difficult for me to grasp but I'll keep at it.

jp, we could get deep in what narcism means and doesn't mean. There are various forms of narcism and while I don't like labels many of us have some form of it.

The point of this thread is to see our role - we all stayed in abusive r/s - if we label them as high conflict and abusive can we really use the word 'love' in the true sense in the same breath?

Fact is we all want different things - high conflict arises when two people in a r/s want different things and they then try to change other persons mind instead of allowing them to be. Love is not about the potential of someone - "if they get therapy", "if they do this then they will be OK"

Many of us need to examine the meaning of true love - and start to examine if what we were doing was filling a void. Not an easy topic - it takes a lot of inquiry to understand the dynamic of these r/s  - there were two in this r/s.

Many of us compromised our own values and had loose boundaries placating our ex's, we strived to be perfect for them, we stayed -  we did everything in our power to create an illusion that we were connected to our ex's.

The r/s was a fantasy for you both:

How is it that we didn't recognize this fantasy?

How did we mistake love for control?

How did we mistake them wanting to spend every waking hour with us as love?

Why did we allow us to be isolated from our friends/family?

Why did our careers suffer for some of us?

Why did we lose ourselves and come to bpdfamily wondering what the heck happened?

Why are we spending so much energy and time trying to pick apart our ex's in these threads to understand what happened?

Why do we have to get a diagnoses to be able to move on?

Why does it feel good to receive validation when we respond to posts?

How do we explain our turmoil? Do others (those outside this site) understand what we are going through?

Why is it that self inquiry is so important?

Not everyone attaches to a Borderline - Why did you?

Relationships between two healthy people can also not work - however the break ups are never like this because they are capable of sitting down and discussing it - why are our r/s so hard to get over?

Looking back, I have to say that I was able to love her and did love her. But it wasn't from a position of strength and emotional health. It was based on intense emotional need. At the time I was looking very hard for a relationship, and the idealization was absolute heaven. We seemed to resolve things. I overlooked the strange arguments and her chaotic relationship history. I truly believed she wanted to find something lasting. But the appearance of resolving differences and similar goals, it was all mirroring on her part. I saw a lot of the child-like regressions. It didn't strike me at the time. I just allowed it to hook me in further as I adored the child in her.

My own inner child had been very neglected over the years for various reasons as i discovered, so I was looking for that excitement and fulfillment in her mirroring and idealizing. If I met someone like her again, my boundaries would be stronger. I would expect to be treated with equal respect. I doubt I'd even consider someone with a very chaotic history (though we all aren't perfect). If I pushed for counseling for her sooner, who knows what may have happened? Maybe she would have reformed? Maybe I would have been pushed away faster? But, I would have been better off for loving me! I don't think I loved myself nearly enough in our r/s. I NEEDED her maybe as bad as she needed me.

I used to think love was the sparks flying kind of deal, and I thought our "chemistry" was great. But I believe "objective" and "mature" love is even more romantic. The commitment to grow in true intimacy with someone else in an emotionally healthy way provides a much  more lastiing and comfortable romance/love.

Very nicely summarized FMA! . I would have to wholeheartedly agree with all that you said.

True intimacy does not occur within r/s that are rife with push/pull, idealization and mirroring.

The best definition of love that I have ever heard is:

Love is the ability and willingness to allow those that you care for to be what they choose for themselves without any insistence that they satisfy you.

That was Wayne Dyer,  who I believe also said:

A genuine relationship is one that is not dominated by the ego with its image-making and self-seeking.  In a genuine relationship there is an outward flow of open,  alert attention toward the other person in which there is no wanting whatsoever.

Clear,

I have to say I'm at a loss here.  It seems that there is a "secret" that you and others have after a great deal of soul searching after ending a relationship with a BPD.  I've been trying to figure out that is for a while and I'm stuck. 

From what I gather, it seems that many nons had are searching for affection that they never received in the early childhood phase.  Am I on track with that?  If so, I would agree that my mother and father weren't affectionate toward me.  I would agree that there was some childhood trauma.  But I realized that years ago and at least on the surface, I have forgiven them for that because they are human beings who probably experienced the very same lack of affection.  I love both of my parents very much and I accept and forgive them for their shortcomings as parents.  They're not perfect, and no parents are.

An offset of that thought is that nons feel a great deal of shame because they did not receive the affection they needed as children.  As a result, nons will engage and stay in relationships where their needs aren't met because they don't feel they deserve to be loved.  In that respect, I do feel that I deserve love.  When things started to go "haywire" with my ex, I laid out clear boundaries.  She broke them and the relationship ended.  So I didn't surrender to giving up my boundaries in that respect.  Do I feel some shame?  That's a toughie.  I do self-pity myself a lot and wonder why I haven't been in a relationship that has lasted.  So I've tried (for years) to be introspective to figure out what's wrong... .with me, with the women I choose, or whatever.  I'm at a loss.

A quick point to make is that during the "mirroring" phase with my ex, I didn't see many red flags early on in the relationship.  My thoughts about how "amazing" my ex was were all validated by the people at the dog rescue where she worked and I volunteered.  I didn't go into the relationship thinking that something was really wrong.  A few red flags popped up in the first few months, but nothing outrageous.  I spoke to my T about them and was told that no one is perfect and that I should keep going.  I absolutely agreed at the time.  There was a great deal of affection, support, kindness, and appreciation for each other.  I really saw how compatible we were in terms of life goals and with dogs.  I felt real love.  I saw a real future for us with a strong foundation to build on.

When the red flags got worse and became more frequent, I advised my ex to see a therapist at the advice of my T.  My ex said she would see a therapist for months and months.  She said she called a few times and forgot to call a few times.  Her health insurance was terrible and she lived in the middle of nowhere so there was limited access to T's - especially good ones.  I tried to be empathetic and patient.

I'm trying to figure out what's wrong with ME.  What I did exactly or what the "void" is in my life.  Do I hate myself?  Do I feel like my parents don't love me?  Do I feel unlovable?  Do I have an Oedipus complex (joke)? I'm trying to get my finger on this because I'm just not seeing it.  It seems that there is an answer here and I'm just lost.  I've been reading so much on DBT, schema therapy, early child therapy (writing and drawing in my opposite hand with "Big" and "Little" me), BPD, codependency, etc.  I'm trying so hard to figure out what's going on with me because others on the boards here seem to find these answers.  I'm wondering just what it is that I need to find out.  I need the Cliff's Notes version I guess!

Some background:  I was single for 5 years before this relationship.  I had been strategically patient in terms of trying to find someone because I wanted someone who shared the same goals and who seemed like she cared about others, and believed in doing good things.  I wanted someone who had a big heart. 

jp,

The search for answers post-BPD can involve a lot of soul-searching, depending on where we are in life, our backgrounds, personalities, etc. Our stories are similar, but they're all different. Like my T told me, it's also possible you simply had the bad luck of falling in love with a pwBPD. That's something my T told me. Maybe it "just happened?" Who doesn't want to fall in love and the idealization and mirroring can feel a lot like that "love"? "Love and wisdom don't often go together" is another gem he has. I do believe I loved mine and was ready for a relationship. However, she very clearly was not. While I may have been ready for a "normal" relationship, I definitely wasn't prepared for the pwBPD and all of the wounds the r/s exposed. Are you still seeing your T? Have you read the articles here?

I haven't had much luck dating since my r/s ended. I've had two S-T r/s's, but one didn't seem to be a good fit and the other didn't seem to be healthy enough emotionally. A lot of my "bad luck" probably has to do with me still being a little fearful of dating, and a little uncertainty as far as what I'm looking for and need. I'm growing and I believe I'm attracting healthier partners. There are more immature partners than mature out there, so I don't think it's always easy. I don't think I've found someone who's quite compatible for me yet either. I do believe I'll know when I find it. I'm spending more time on myself and enjoying activities and friends without having dating as a focus. That's what has helped me the  most. Your own journey and answers are unique to you.

Well I'm definitely confused. I've been reading A LOT on these boards for the past few months.  And I've been reading a lot of books about codependency, shame, BPD, mindfulness, schema, DBT, abandonment/getting through a breakup, etc.

I acknowledge the mirroring phase.  I loved it.  I felt I had met a very healthy, happy, interesting, amazing person.  She volunteered at a dog rescue.  Seemed like a very kind, gentle, loving person.  Considerate. I considered her my EQUAL, and I didn't see myself as being more important than her.  I did see myself as having more answers and general wisdom than her, but I also saw her as having way more knowledge and wisdom in many areas.  I don't think I'm better than her.  I wanted what was best for us... .which meant that I was willing to make some sacrifices and I hoped she was too. 

I dunno.  My thoughts are that I loved her.  I'm confused / doubtful that she loved me based on my definition of love.  But I believe she had love for me in her own way... .it was just different than my way. 

Finding, Yep, still seeing my T. 

So you think there are more immature than mature partners out there?  Gosh I hope that's not the case. I'm scared if it is!

Our journeys are unique you are right there FMA.

I commend you JP for doing some soul searching. Not everyone has a bad childhood and therefore chooses a BPD.

I guess my point is - why did we think we fell in love with our ex's? Is it that our notion of love and true intimacy is flawed? If its flawed then how we get it back on track?

We are a member of bpdfamily because some trauma or crisis led us here for answers to what we endured? I think we can deduce it was no 'ordinary' r/s.

We find it hard to detach and we come here confused. I knew those things about my family too however I still chose dysfunction. It's possible you don't have a great deal of searching left to do JP - I don't know I'm not you.

What did your ex provide you with that you felt like you didn't possess already? For me my ex made me feel extremely special, me felt 'love' like that before. I now know that that is not love. My ex mirrored. I mirrored. We got something from each other for the time it lasted - cracks appeared. I ended up not even liking the person before me.

Healthy/ true intimacy does not start with a fireworks display.

What's the difference?

Ok so our r/s ended - many r/s end for varying reasons - these hurt like no other! We are more confused like no other. I believe these r/s stop us in our tracks and we question everything - hit rock bottom and the only way is up - and there is much learning to be had on the way up.

Our childhood plays a role shaping our r/s skills. Mine were seriously flawed. It's possible that while we may understand in theory our childhood conditioning it possible it still plays out in choices of partners. JP we know have an awareness of our childhood, awareness of why we chose our partners - now we can begin to work towards choosing healthier partners.

That's interesting stuff.

Like you, I felt I met my dream person.  I loved everything about her.  Then reality set in. But I guess I would say that people tend to be on their best behavior early in relationships. We hide our flaws and try to attract the other person.  We couldn't exactly come out and say we have issues with x, y, or z because it would have the other person running for the hills.  I totally understand why pwBPD mirror.

I really fell in love with my ex because she seemed like a genuinely good person. I had volunteered at a rescue for several years and she worked there for several years.  I saw dogs as a really good common interest and bond for the both of us.  Everyone who worked with her told me she was just an amazing person.  So there were so many factors that contributed to my falling for her. It wasn't just a “she made me feel great" thing.  There were some real reasons that were important to me. 

I dunno, I appreciate the discussion.  I think I've done a lot of soul searching and what I've concluded is that she has BPD and she really can't offer a lot in a relationship due to fears of engulfment/abandonment, poor sense of self, an underdeveloped amygdala, a difficult childhood, dissociative behavior, hypersensitivity, severe impulsivity, prior drug use, etc. 

I think I went into the relationship not thinking she had BPD, and came to realize that she was had a disorder very late in the game.  I stayed in the relationship because she promised to see a therapist and I wanted to believe that she could change. I also don't like to give up on people, and I thought she and I had very common interests to build on.  I loved to spend time with her most of the time.  We had some very amazing moments.  She would just get very disordered some of the time and it was unbearable and outrageous. If I knew she had BPD, I would have handled things differently but hindsight is always 20/20.

I know I need to work on getting over the hurt of this loss.  I really cared about her and I valued her in my life.  And I miss her too. I'm not sure what the takeaways are here.  Maybe there aren't many for me other than to learn here other than I shouldn't stick by people when things are too tumultuous.  Seems simple enough. 

I'll keep pondering it!  Thanks for all the thought provoking discussion everyone!

Many of us ended up like the frog in the pan of water on the stove. We went into it being the best frogs we could be, sharing our hearts honestly, and kept on being ourselves, deep down, throughout. Our love was real, for us, however it was that we were seeing or expressing it. As the temperature of the situation changed, the love we felt amplified into a more frantic need and was being worn away (by neglect and overuse). We lost track of some of it as we felt the heat, weren't sure what to do about it, and made efforts to jump out. Learning to next time look to see if the pan is actually a pan, is on a stove, etc.

I'm such a frog that got fried soo slowly I didn't notice it. I am 11 months out of my 9 year r/s with ex BPD gf (and 7 months nc). Our couples counselor told me that perhaps I loved her, but she's not so sure about my ex's capability to love me back. More and more I wonder about the love part, on both sides. I know I thought I loved her. I know everything after I broke up with her was  manipulation plain and simple. But it makes sense, since I'd tried to break up with her on at least two other occasions and she was able to talk me into not leaving. I know I worked on my own stuff the entire time we were together and finally exhausted by her emotional dysregulation and witholding (sexually and emotionally), I gave her an ultimatum for therapy. She went for 6 months (or less) and quit. When she was in therapy, she got a little better (but during this time told me that my anger and my negativity is why our r/s wasn't working).

After we broke up, I went back to our former couples counselor (stunned with my new knowledge of BPD). She said oh yeah, for sure (and probably NPD, Histrionic and perhaps bipolar). She told me she was GLAD my ex quit therapy so that I escaped. She's seen too many people stay because they kept getting thrown crumbs. Ouch.

I am working on my inner child, my abandonment issues, all the things I didn't see, all the ways I put things on my ex that she could never meet. I am totally committed to focusing on my part. I want real love, not another reasonable fascimile grounded in emotional need

Part of me did but I couldn't let go. I wanted to keep trying. I maintained a lot of good boundaries. I didn't let sex mask our issues. She did try. I wouldn't let her cover up bad behavior with it. We'd tried to talk about things. I wouldn't give in and we'd have lengthy circular arguments that went nowhere. I didn't have the knowledge to just walk away and let her deal with her emotions. I knew there were bad things going on. She kept pushing me away when things were going well. This kept me on guard. She called off the engagement 4 times. I knew something was off but I thought we could work it out. Even though I had no idea what it was. I think this was more my own conceit than anything to do with her. I can fix anything! I did call off the wedding. It was the 5th and final time. Go me!




I recognized it but just kept trying. We kept arguing.


I knew this wasn't right. She was incredibly clingy when she first moved in. I drew back and she got mad at me. We had a long talk about it and she enrolled in some classes on topics that interested her in a local community college to keep her busy. She took up gardening also. We did pretty well after that for a bit. I did good here.


Not good. I failed big time here. I became too focused on managing her emotions and not focusing on my own health. I had a couple periods where I really got down. After we didn't get married was one of them. I'm actually shocked we didn't break up then.  All my other relationships really suffered!


I'm established enough in my field I could mask it pretty well but my quality of work wasn't the same. How could it be when I had a BPD to take care of? LOL.


I might still be with my ex if I hadn't left for 4 days. It was the first time I had left for longer than a day. The couple times I left for a day she was furious when I got back. I knew if I left for 4 days it might end it. I thought about changing my plans pretty hard. A bit of self preservation took over and I decided if she can't take being alone for 4 days what kind of relationship do we really have? The closer the date got to my trip (to check on a property I own in another state) the closer we got. We were in another idealization stage. We kissed passionately at the airport looked into each other’s eyes and repeated I love yous. When I returned she was about an hour late picking me up, couldn’t look at me. She left before the week was out. I had a couple down periods before this but I handled it and the relationship not so bad. This was devastating though. We never recovered from it. Interaction continues for several more months but it was never anything close to healthy again. It wasn’t healthy before but things really got out of hand from here on out.


It just happened so fast. It is still hard to understand even though I understand. If that makes sense.


Ex attempted suicide and was diagnosed. She told me once in a good period we had. She says she doesn't have it though. After all this blew over we have talked a bit since then. I know a bit more. She does realize she is isolated and has difficulty being close to people. She fell apart about a year after we broke up and she is sad about it. She also said her life was going well when we started dating. It was a couple years after the suicide attempt. She had some therapy after that. She called it "life coaching" though. She has some knowledge of DBT concepts and it does make me wonder. It doesn’t make it better though. All the bad stuff that happened. Happened. Doesn’t matter if she has BPD or not.  


Felt good at first because my ex never listened to my point of view and I was hurting emotionally and looking for somebody to understand.  


People don’t understand. I think it is because most people haven’t been in an enmeshed relationship before. I put myself in a bad place.


Bipolar sister. Extremely co-dependent mother. Possible BPD dad I haven’t spoken to in over 20 years. I haven’t really disclosed this. I’m currently working on these things now. I have been NC by my choice with my dad. No big deal. That is how it needs to be.  Parents divorced and I have taken on a lot of my sister’s and mom’s troubles throughout our lives. I take after mom. I have been trying to force a healthier relationship with sister and mother since moving back into the area. That has been difficult. My BPD ex did bring this up when we were together. She wanted me to focus my attention and resources on her. Honestly. To answer the question, It all just seemed kind of normal.




I went from a high to a low in 4 days. It was just crazy.




This is still a tough question for me. We were great as casual friends. We had honest talks without the intimacy. Before I deleted our emails I read through them. In our old ones I can even see the BPD in them. She isn’t really hiding it. I was sympathetic with a lot of her feelings because of my own family drama. This was actually our main connecting point. The reason we kept talking.  When we tried to become more we had a typical BPD relationship. We have had a few talks that haven’t been bad. I’ve even learned a bit more about her outside of fantasy land. She hasn’t done well since we broke up. She is having difficulty putting the pieces back together. I have no desire to save anymore though. It is up to her. She has started working again so hopefully she continues to get better. I don’t think either one of us are planning to talk again. She might contact me again if her life falls apart again. If she does I don’t mind talking to her but the urge to save has left me. I think I’m getting better.


I know this. I haven’t done it before. I thought it might be different since we were already “friends”. It was too fast too soon though. We had never spent enough time together to know if we were really compatible or for me to find out she has BPD. LOL

Clearmind, whoa! That's exactly what I've started to accept of late. If I'm honest, I lost the love and the respect for my ex at least a year before I found the strength to walk away. She had claimed there was no contact between her and someone with whom she had an affair for 15 years both before and during her marriage. Her phone said something else entirely (I've never looked at a partner's phone or snooped before but something didn't feel right in my gut). The goldleaf which we had both coated each other with began to peel away but I couldn't let go of the dream no matter the evidence or the cost to my own well-being. I used her because I needed an anchor for all these feelings she/we had engendered within me. Once the stopper had come out I couldn't bottle back up all the feelings of love, acceptance and validation that I'd always repressed from childhood. She helped me express myself more than anyone before and I thought that love. I suppose that's another definition of love too and I still believe that to be possible in a non-disordered way. The loss of that is what hurts me the most and still finds me struggling. I don't miss her, I miss being able to express myself or, more accurately, my lonely child. Little did I know what would follow the words "I love you" - from both of us. Anger, recrimination, cruelty, inauthenticity of feelings - from both of us. As I work my way out of this mess I begin to see how I treated her or our relationship as an absolute because that's something that has been missing from my childhood because of FOO issues. I was sick for validation, my emotional immune system has always been weak and meeting her felt like the vaccination I'd always needed. I've told myself I'm not going to utter the words "I love you" until I've worked these issues out and and made progress in therapy. Apart from saying them to my little girl of course  :) I'm being so careful with her. It kills me to think she would ever, ever experience this type of pain.

Real love you can't... .happened to me too... .a "I love you" and "we are done" in the same 24 hour period.

I think it was Plato who said "love is a Devine madness"; your question is poignant and I think ultimately unanswerable.  Only you know what you felt.  That is if you define love as a feeling.  If you define love as an action, then only you know it you were loving.  Others may define love as a state of selflessness, only you know that too.  Love to me is amorphous, changing, evolving, it's both dark and light.  Thomas Moore in ":)arknight of the soul" talks about love as both light and dark.  I am sure most of us relate to that definition. There is "mature" love as if love has a juvenile, adolescent and adult state, here maybe we say my love for my BPD did not mature correctly.  They say if I must love myself if I am to love another.  Who is the "I" that is supposed to love my "self"?  If "I" don't love myself now how does the "I" who does not love "self"; become the "I" that loves self? Are we not the same?  Perhaps it not a growth but a stripping down of the illusion that I am who I think I am,  maybe I am sometimes selfish and sometimes selfless, maybe I am sometimes kind and sometimes mean.  Maybe I have trouble being both at the same time.  Maybe I cannot accept the duality.  And maybe a BPD relationship just mirrors that conflict.  Because in their black and white world do I not envy the ability to be resolute:  it is good or it is bad.  There is no in between and better yet I defer the responsibility to them.  Why?  Because in the beginning I got to be all good, and from that point I had a mission to amplify that good, the light, the ideal... .my ideal.  It was like a drug taking back in time before I knew I was good baby, bad baby. I was ideal baby but ideal defined as good only, ideal in reality could be both good and bad, because what I deem as bad I.e. anger is sometimes good, when used for protection as an example.  But until I accept the integration of me as light and dark, ideal soul; then I defer to her to split in black and white.  Are they not only doing what we asked them?  I loved her from the place of my soul.  Probe it!  I cannot.  I can't even prove to you I love my family but I do.  Love is not always forever, this is for a season, though I grieve the ending of an endless summer.

To answer the original question... .  I loved her. The confusion comes in because part of why we feel in love is because what we feel is reciprocated. There was no way for me to know that the 1000's of "I love you" that came out of her mouth were lies or at least confused. I was a one and done person in her life, no recycles, so during our time I would have had no idea of all the other thoughts that were swirling in her head. She was also the quiet waif type so no raging to give me any clue.

I think we belittle need in relationships; we all need to feel loved and have companionship. I will agree that if you have to trade other things like peace of mind, happiness, physical well being, sense of self etc. just to be in a relationship then in that case you need to examine yourself too.

Do you remember that song, happiness is... .  different things to different people, that's what happiness is. If you change the happiness for love I think it is just as true. And the meaning of love can change depending on what stage of life you are in and what challenges you are dealing with in your life. That's why marriage can be difficult even with two emotionally stable individuals. As a recently DW in middle age coming out of a decades long marriage with a pwBPD I can say, yes I did love him, and do still. What's confusing is I'm not sure just who he is. What romantic love means to me is:

Wanting to place the needs of my partner at the same level as my own, most of the time

shared interests and goals

having joy in each others company

a feeling of support when facing the concerns of the world

the spark of intimacy that is shared between two people when you look at each other

creating memories

a sense of belonging at the end of the day

allowing each other into the most sensitive areas of your life knowing there will be no

condemnation or shaming, but acceptance and shared strength for growth

the undefinable "it" factor when two people connect

So that's my list. Now if I can only find a market that has some in stock :)