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So I had a court date a couple of weeks ago, and I got the court mediators report the night before.  The report was lenthy and the mediator spoke to the kids therapist, CPS and our old custody evaluator.  The results were basically that things are to remain the same for now, with both of us parents moving in and out of the house and the kids staying there full time, and we are to get an updated custody evaluation with the same person as last time.

The report also stated that if a custody evaluation was not feasible that the kids should stay with me most of the time and be with their mom every other weekend and one dinner visit a week. It stated several concerns with the ex'x parenting .  The ex also has to do 16 weeks of anger management classes starting next month. 

So the lawyers talked and we came to an agreement and didnt go to court that day. both Restraining orders got dropped.  the ex is fronting the money for the custody eval and a good chunk of my lawyer fees, she is also paying the rent and utilities on the house and I am not asking for any support as long as I live in the house and I agreed to a seek work order. I was already looking for work anyway.

It is a good step, it seems people are finaly starting to see through her facade but nothing has changed.  i am a little concerned about the custody evaluation because last time he seemed to really minimize her bevavior to make her look less bad and recomended 50/50.  I dont know what it is like with for the kids when they are with their mom but they seem really stressed when I get them and when I saw the ex, she seemed like she was ready to explode at any second. I am not sure she is going to ba able to hold it together for long.

My D9 was diagnosed with PTSD due to "domestic violence between the parents and threats from her mother".   I feel so bad that the kids have to deal with all this. 

So my problem is still finding some decent employment, something that is going to allow me to be there for the kids when I need to because things could end up going my way it seems.  I am trying not to get my hopes up.  I really do think it is best for the kids to have frequent yet limited time with their mom.

With the stated default that you become majority time parent, D diagnosed with mother attributed as part of the casue, and she is ordered to take a series of Anger Management classes, it's hard to imagine a custody evaluation recommending equal time.  I'm thinking they may be doing this to see if a CE recommends even less contact or stricter rules for her proper behavior.  Of course, will the evaluator get the message or decide the classes will 'fix' everything?  Time will tell, but don't let down your guard.

They may still be very circumspect in recommendations or evaluations, especially since her employment or license could be at risk, so expect them to do some fancy dancing around some topics.

In my state only a custody evaluator or maybe GAL can recommend custody, not a therapist or social worker.  I was stunned for years why the court's social worker and son's therapists never commented about custody nor sought action.  Then after, some 5 years of counseling his T told me she could risk her license if she made recomendations, only observations were okay.  Duh, thanks everyone for telling me that crucial piece of information, as counseling was winding down.

"They may still be very circumspect in recommendations or evaluations, especially since her employment or license could be at risk, so expect them to do some fancy dancing around some topics."

I kind of do get the feeling that there is alot more going on behind the scenes than what is comming out on paper.  It could just be my imagination, however.

I had co=parenting with her yesterday with the same therapist that use to be our marriage therapist.  She was very angry and not happy with the living situation, very aggresive and seems very volitile.  I am pretty worried about what she might do.   She was posting things on facebook asking for help in getting me out of the house. She has deleted it.   She also said in our session "My whole family is angry with you"  which knowing  her family and they way they handle things seems like a threat.  She also really was talking down to me and being herself basically.    

I am not too happy with the therapist because it just seems like he is not calling her out on her bevavior and seems to tkae her side on alot of things that it does not make sense to do so.  

I am wondering if I should ask for a different therapist, he has been seeing us for over 2 years so he knows us, but he doesnt seem to understand the need for boundries on her bevavior and on the way she talks to me in session.    

First, congratulations on what sounds like a positive step for now.  It's pretty unusual that a mom gets less than half the time, even temporarily, so this pretty clearly establishes that a neutral professional sees you as the better parent.

Second, the part about "My whole family is angry with you"... .  

One of the things that indicates parental alienation is when it's not just one parent being mad at the other parent, it's a whole family or "tribe" - the angry parent plus all her supporters - ganging up on the other parent or "tribe".  This comment suggests that your wife is probably already - consciously or unconsciously - alienating your kids.  Since you'll have more time with them, her efforts may not be effective, but they will be stressful on the kids.  You might want to read ":)ivorce Poison", which describes how this works and what you can do about it.  (The author is Richard Warshak.)

Tread carefully.  Some lawyers, judges and therapists don't like the term "parental alienation" - they see it is an exaggerated thing - many parents and lawyers have claimed alienation was happening and it really wasn't.  Don't get into a philosophy discussion on whether PA is very common or not - that's not the issue.  The issue is whether your wife and others are saying negative and false things about you to the kids, or using other techniques like asking them if they are afraid of you - one way to make kids afraid - ":)oes Daddy ever hurt you?  Are you afraid he might hurt you?" etc.

Talk with your lawyer about this.  Look for ways to document it if you can.  Express concern to the neutral professionals but careful not to make accusations you can't back up.  "In our session she said 'My whole family is angry with you.' which makes me concerned about how the kids might be affected by that anger."

About the dynamics of the therapy sessions... .  

It is reasonable for you to discuss boundaries with the therapist and the other party, and for you to state your own boundaries and maintain them.  Let me give you an example... .  

We went to four marriage counselors over the years, all chosen by my wife.  By the third one, I had learned a few things.  When my wife began to make false accusations, I waited for her to finish, and then said to the therapist, "Ms. Matt just now accused me of X.  That is false and there is no evidence to support it;  in fact if you want, I can bring proof to our next session that it is false.  I will not take part in these sessions if there will be false accusations.  The next one that I hear, I will leave the session."  He saw what I was doing - stating a boundary in terms of what I will not tolerate and what I will do if it happens - and he gently backed me up.  "I hear that you are not willing to hear more accusations and I think that is a boundary we need to respect, Mr. Matt.  Mrs. Matt, do you hear that boundary and are you going to respect it?"  My wife had to back down - she didn't admit that she had lied, but she agreed not to make more accusations like that.

For you, the boundary might be different.  You don't want to be too controlling or to try to dictate the other party's behavior, but if there is a reasonable limit to her behavior, maybe you can put that forward as a boundary, and then, depending how the therapist deals with that, decide if this therapy is productive.

What's the purpose of these sessions - to fix the marriage or to negotiate the divorce?  Or something else?

Hell yes.

Be very careful about coparenting therapy. The T can be subpoenaed, and if you feel that the T has a bias, or does not understand the severity of her condition, you are at risk. Nothing you discuss in those T sessions is confidential.

During mediation, my L advised me to agree to coparenting. I went once ($250 consultation) and N/BPDx went once ($250 consultation). I had a hard time with the waiver we were supposed to sign and questioned the T about it. She said there was no confidentiality and that yes, if she was subpoenaed, she would disclose her professional opinion.

We never went back, partly because of my concerns, (I was also afraid because I wanted to sit in a separate chair, and the room only had a short couch, so N/BPDx and I would have to sit next to each other). N/BPDx never insisted on it, most likely because of the cost and because he was only doing it at his L's counsel.

In my opinion, if there has been DV, then coparenting is not possible. If this is not court-ordered, stop going. If it is court-ordered, then find a T you trust and be very careful about how you conduct yourself. Treat it like a stage play in front of 20 jurors and a judge.

I do need to set some boundries next time. I am going to prep what I am going to say before I go in there next time.  This are court ordered c0-parenting sessions. They are not productive at all. At this point it is nothing more than a venue for my ex to engage me in drama. I am as close to no contact as possible having kids with her so this is her only oppurtunity to engage me, put me down, and drop hints about her love life.  I hate that I have to go be in the same room from her.

I am also going to ask my lawyer about the possibility of changing therapist or delaying co-parenting until my ex does her anger management classes.

Just to clarify, I do not have majority time with the kids at this point. It is still 50/50 (almost). What the court said is that is a custody eval does not happen then I will get majority time. The ex is fronting the money for the CE so until that happens things will remain the way they are.  The kids stay in the house and us parents move in ant out of the house.

It is still a step in the right dirrection.

The ex lost the dog over new years, she left him alone  in the yard from 2pm until 4pm the next day and he got out.  The poor dog had no shelter in the yard and it was cold that night.  She tried to use this to engage me "Can you come help look for the dog, he is both of ours afterall"   I am not falling for it though. I am going to contact the shelter and look for him on my own but I am not engaging her.

I really understand why no-contact or minimal contact is so important.  The co-parenting thing was really bad for me emotionaly.  I do not want to be around this woman.  She is nothing short of toxic for me.  

So she wins by stalling - if she doesn't pay for the CE, things stay like they are.

What is your plan to deal with that - break that almost-certain logjam?

About boundaries... .  here's how I presented it.  Your issues are somewhat different but this general approach worked well.

"Before we get started, there's an issue I'd like to raise with you both.  These sessions are required by the court, so it's in all our interest for them to be productive, but I think we can all agree they haven't been productive up til now.  So I thought of some simple ground rules that maybe we can agree to that will move things forward.

"First, and this is one I feel very strongly about, I think it's important that there be no false accusations made in these sessions.  If there are false accusations, I will leave the session and inform my attorney of why.

"Second, let's identify the issues we're going to work on at the start of each session, and then let's focus on those issues.  Going far off the track makes the session unproductive.  I'll look to you (counselor) to manage that and bring us back on course when we wander away - is that fair?

"Finally, let's agree that we should keep our voices moderate, and keep a calm tone all the time.  We're here to solve problems together so there's no need for us to get too upset.

"Are those good ground rules we can all commit to?"

If you can phrase everything so that no reasonable person would disagree, both your ex and the counselor will have to agree.  Then when the other party violates one of the ground rules, you can turn from her to the counselor - end eye-contact with the ex and only make eye-contact with the counselor - til the counselor gets the hint and does job.  She will surely do it gently - "We're a little off track - let's get back to our issue for today... .  ".

If that still doesn't work, you might have to wait for a pause in the action - til you have the floor - and then read back from your notes - I assume you bring a notebook to these sessions? - read back exactly what was said, word-for-word if possible.  "Just now, Ms. Ex said, 'Jed is a kitten-hating Nazi.'  This is a false accusation.  At the start of this session, we agreed that there would be no false accusations, and I said that if there were any, I would end the session.  Now should I leave, or can we back up a few minutes and do it a different way - re-state your point without any false accusations?"

If that still doesn't work, be prepared to literally walk out, go to your car and drive home.  Then send an e-mail to your attorney recounting exactly what happened, and copy the counselor.  Tell your attorney you intend to continue with court-mandating sessions but you will continue to end any session which contains false accusations (or whatever very serious boundaries you decide on).  It's critical that your attorney back you up on this, so you might want to let him know what you're doing.

I think it's entirely reasonable to postpone the court-ordered co-parenting classes until your stbx has completed her court-ordered anger management counseling?  It is counterproductive to do the first before the second has been given a chance to be "successful."

Does the co-parently T know that stbx is court-ordered to anger management counseling?  If so, why is he/she even attempting to conduct the sessions?

And don't count on the court-ordered Anger Management sessions to make a dent in her behaviors.  Yes, it's the standard order, yes it *might* help, but don't count on it.  Your key advantage here is that at least it's "on the record" somewhere so you can reference it as needed whenever the counselors or judges are flummoxed and wonder which of you is the problem parent and which of you to believe.

I don't think my ex was ever ordered to get any sessions for anything.  Some 7 years after separation, she still has the same issues and thus far no one wants to come right out and bluntly set her straight.

Very interesting thought!

What if... .  next session... .  Ex becomes agitated, and rather than responding to what she is saying, you ask, "Have you completed the court-ordered anger management class?"

If she says "Yes", you have your lawyer check on that, and bring the information to the next session.  "Last time, I asked if Ms. Ex had completed the anger management class, and she said yes.  The reason I asked was that she seemed angry in the session.  My lawyer checked and sent me this document, which seems to show that she has not actually completed that class.  I see this as a problem, first because we can't solve problems together if we don't tell the truth about simple factual matters, and second because I think these sessions will be more productive once those classes have been completed.  So let's cut this one short and come back together at that time - OK?"

To LnL's point, what goes on at that session is potentially part of the court record.  So the counselor can be subpoenaed, and she'll have to testify accordingly:  "Ms. Ex said she had completed the anger management class when she had not.  So I agreed to suspend the co-parenting meetings til she had done that."

Or she may tell the truth - "No, I haven't completed that class."  "OK - thanks.  I see you becoming upset, and I think that's making it harder for these sessions to be productive.  Let's suspend them til you've completed that class - when will that be?"

Again, best to keep your lawyer informed, but don't let him bully you into sitting still for stuff you shouldn't have to put up with.

Great idea to talk to your L about post-poning the coparenting sessions. For high-conflict cases, they are useless, and like you mentioned, emotionally draining. I did a lot of reading about coparenting T, and it is never recommended for DV cases.

If you addressed this issue - putting these sessions on hold til both parties are better able to make good use of them - with the co-parenting T, how do you think that would play out?

Would she even be willing to discuss it with you?  Would it be a big legal mess?  Or would she maybe say, "Yeah, I was wondering when you were going to get to that point.  If you want to put them on hold I'll support that."?

I think if you looked like somebody just taking their ball and going home, that might work against you.  But if you find a fair, "professional" way to communicate the issue, that might elevate you from "one of two kids fighting" to "mature, strategic, problem-solver".

I talked to my lawyer briefly today and she said I should keep going to coparenting because it is a court order. The original mediators report called for coparenting after her anger management classes but the lawyers said that since that were had already been going per the agreement with CPS that we should keep going. It ended up being apart of the deal.  My lawyer actualy seemed happy that she was acting out in the session and thinks its a good idea to keep going

I have been thinking about what you-all have said and I am thinkiing I need to put the ball in this co-parenting therapist court.  I should call and express my concerns with him and ask him why he thought it was a good idea to continue given the circumstances, the DV, her anger, ect.  I will tell him how I dont feel exactly safe sitting next to her on a couch, which is  true.  Last time at the end of session she started saying aggressively "do you want your sposal SUPPORT, it's in my car, I have your check for $200, meet me at the car"   It was so aggresive, and I said I didnt not feel save meeting her outside and that she could mail it too me.   Then at the end of the session I went and hid in the bathroom until she and her mom (her mom is as scary as she is) left the building, then i sat in the waiting room for a few minutes just to make sure they were gone before I went outside.

I also brought up, with my lawyer,  the part about her paying for the CE and what is to prevent her from delaying. it was one of my biggest concerns after reading through everything the lawyers did.   My lawyer said "She will gain no advantage by delaying" I am not so sure this is true. I do not no how long it's going to take but the CE is not going to start until at least feb. At that point there is going to be several months of status quo 50/50.  I am going to ask my lawyer to keep on top of this.   I am not sure what else I can do about this at this point. It is the way things are now.  I am suprised considering the narrative of the mediators report that I wasnt given temp majority custody pending the outcome of the CE, but that is not what happened.  I suppose if she refuses to pay I can go back to court and say a CE is not feasible because she hasn't paid for it.  

I came and took over with the kids today and the ex left. She found the dog 15 minutes after she left and brought it back.  weird.

I am under no illusion that anger management is going to do anything for her. I also told my lawyer this. I am almost certain it is not going to do her anygood. Her eyes change when she goes into rages. How the heck are classes going to fix that?

Careful.  You may be treading a fine line.

On the one hand, I'm sure your last post (and others) tells exactly how you feel around her, and you have every right to those feelings.  If you were a woman or a child, everyone would give you the benefit of the doubt.

But if you are bigger and stronger, and male, it may not work that way.  Many people simply do not believe that a woman is a threat to a man, or that a man's fear of a woman could be reasonable.

Women commit DV about as often as men, and it's a myth that women are hurt more than men;  women are more likely to pick up an object, so they cause about as many injuries to men as men do to women.  All these basic assumptions that most people walk around with - in one state they literally changed the legal term for "domestic violence" to "male pattern abuse" - none of them are based on reality.

But... .  people aren't even conscious that they hold these baseless assumptions - ":)V means a man hurting a woman" - "Very few men are attacked by women" - "A woman may hit a man but she can't hurt him" - etc.  The words of the law in most states are neutral, but the reality isn't.

So... .  you may have to find a way to tell your truth without it being dismissed out of hand.

One way I've done this - but my truth may be different than yours - is to acknowledge that in two DV incidents, both initiated by my ex, I was not harmed, and I never feared for my safety.  (She threw an iron at me, and damaged the wall, and ruined the iron.  But I told the officer "She throws like a girl." and he laughed.)  I never claimed that I was injured or that I was afraid of being injured.

What I said was:

* She was out of control and the kids were in the house.  If she continued to act like that, something bad could happen.

* She initiated the incident and then accused me of a serious crime.  (If the officers had believed what she said - they found evidence proving it was false - they could have charged me with attempted murder and held me without bail for many months.)  So my main fear was (and is) that if there is another such incident she will be shrewder and more convincing, and it might take a long time to prove she's lying.  (I didn't enjoy my 16 hours of hard time.)

I'm not suggesting that you put your truth back in the box.  I think it's important that you talk openly about it, and if you tell your truth there is less risk that your story might seem to vary.

I'm only suggesting that you consider how every word you say about this is likely to be perceived by those (like my first attorney!) who have never experienced woman-on-man DV.  Your credibility could be lost very quickly, even though every word you say is true.

Yeah, maybe describing feeling "unsafe" won't work in your favor.

It's unfair. Until I came to bpdfamily.com, I had the same bias about men and DV. When I talk to friends about what I've learned here about BPD mothers and the abuse they inflict on men, few of them buy it, much less have any sympathy. When Robert Kennedy Jr.'s ex-wife (Mary) killed herself, the mainstream response was that she was the victim, not him (she was a trained boxer). But when you read the affadavit that Kennedy wrote, he describes textbook BPD behavior, and she was diagnosed by a psychologist. It only makes sense if you understand BPD, and PDs aren't well understood, if at all, by most people.

www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/robert-kennedy-jr-wifes-family-nasty-feud/story?id=16542795#.UOTxA3PjlK4

You might be better off being specific about what your ex is doing, as opposed to how you are feeling. "BPDex makes repeated false accusations that have no basis in fact or reality. She uses threats and intimidation. Her anger and rage makes the sessions unproductive."

Your L sounds like mine. When I hesitated about the PC in our case (who is a psychologist), my L said it would work in my favor. It has. N/BPDx has acted out in spectacular ways. The difference is that the PC has some power in my situation, and is not trying to pretend that the arrangement is therapeutic. Don't lose heart if you can't get out of coparenting, just be aware that it's part of the chess game of family court and is about building evidence, not learning how to coparent.

Married and Divorced a BPD. Children involved.  Been to court 3 times. Won all stipulations and contempt motions.

Very important... .  You need to document all emails, text messages (photo the texts to a camera that shows date and times) and keep a log of events and summary of phone converstaions.  It is very important to log things in a sequence of event.  Blines get tripped up with their stories when you have documentation on when things happened and what was said, etc. in a sequence of events. Even hours in a day... is important.   It's very revealing to the court when you present your issues... .  and outline the "she said, he said" sequence of events to the court.

Also, obtain (hire) a GAL (Guardian ad Litem).  Get the Bline to pay half.  Make sure the GAL is an attorney... .  and not a social worker. Very important.   That is, you have an attorney... .  your Bline has an attorney... .  and the GAL is the attorney for the kids.  GALs have broad powers to investiage the minors home, documents, teachers,  neighbors, etc.    The GAL have as much weight in a courtroom as the parent attornies... .  if not more.  The GAL report to the court is important. Your documented journal and sequence of event, and interviews with surrounding people... .  weights heavy in a courtroom.  I went thur therapists, and all that.   Sometimes they help, sometimes they are intimated in a courtroom.   A GAL attorney... .  knows what the court and can be a great ally to you.

As most know, therapists sometimes have a hard time IDing a Borderline because they are so convincing with their lies.   A GAL attorney is schooled in fact finding and court proceedings.

It is complicated. It is not like I am afraid of her beating me up. I am just afriad of what she could do if I were to meet her outside, she is unpredictable and angry.   It is a fine line. I do not want to seem like I am being difficult but I need to be careful .Prehaps i should attend and simply be reasonable and ignore her comments. That is kind of what I did last time too.   

i was thinking earlier about just asking the therapist to establish boundries is session.  I see your point. If I called and say i am afraid of a woman they might think i am not being honest. My credability being better than hers is one of the major things I have going for me now.   Between us though, I seriously am afraid of her and I am not ashamed to admit it either.     

 

And you should be afraid of her. If I remember correctly, she had you falsely arrested before. You took a plea, and it has caused you all sorts of problems. Her family is "angry with you"--most likely due to the lies stbex has told them, probably for years.

Why is her mother showing up at these sessions anyway? It is none of her concern, and the presence of a relative that is hostile to you is likely an attempt by you ex to intimidate you. Her mother may even be a patsy in this, only showing up because stbex is falsely claiming to be "deathly afraid of you."

Please be careful, and don't give her the benefit of the doubt. I made that mistake too many times.

A couple more thoughts... .  

One is, you hint in your last post at a strategy which might be a very good one - being pretty passive and silent in the sessions.  Let the other party talk as much as possible.  The therapist will try to draw you out, and you'll want to cooperate with that, but maybe you can give relatively short, true answers, and mostly just listen to the other party.

That way, you'll be complying with the court order, and cooperating with the therapist, but mostly you'll be letting the other party show her colors.

Along these lines, I would strongly suggest that you bring a notebook, and take notes.  :)ate the page, and when the other party is talking, make bullet points about things you want to address.  That helps me not to interrupt.  And if there are any false statements or accusations, write them down right at the moment, word-for-word if possible.  Then when it's your turn, read it back:  "A minute ago, Ms. Jed said 'Jed did such-and-such.'  I wrote it down here because I wanted to be fair and accurate, and make sure I remembered exactly what was said.  This statement is false.  I have never done such-and-such, and Ms. Jed cannot produce any evidence that I have.  This is the kind of false accusation which I think is keeping these sessions unproductive."

Then stop, and look at the therapist, not the other party.  The point being, it's the therapist's job to manage the sessions so they will be productive.  By looking her right in the face, you will be challenging her to do that, and she'll probably get that, and rise to the challenge.

If you continue to do that, session after session, they'll both get the point, and you'll be gathering evidence.  If you can later call the therapist as a witness, you can refer back to those notes - "Ms. T, on January 2 of this year, in your session with Mr. Jed and Ms. Jed, did Ms. Jed say, 'Jed did such-and-such.'?"  Since you highlighted the accusation at the time, and showed the T that you are taking notes so you know exactly what was said, she'll probably remember and confirm what she heard.  You can then show that the accusations are false - or at least that they are not backed up by any evidence - and your ex's credibility will fall even further.

It's sad that these sessions are more useful as ways to prepare for trial than as ways to be better parents, but that may be the case, until your ex gets diagnosed and treated.

One final point... .  You're going to be careful about how and when you state your truth - that you are in fear of her - but there may be another way to communicate it that is better than saying it in so many words.  And that is, acting very consistently like someone who is both afraid and wise.

As an example, when we settled, one of the last things I asked for, was to do all the driving;  when it's time for the kids to go to Mom's house, I take them there, and then pick them up on the agreed day and time.  100% of the time, at first - I had that written into the settlement, though I'm not perfectly disciplined about it now - sometimes I let their mom drop them off and pick them up at my house.

The reason I did that was so there would be no reason for my ex to ever be in my neighborhood.  When I moved, I even considered not telling her where I lived, but that wouldn't have been practical - the kids were already 12 and 14 so they would tell her the address, and I would look weird.  But I have made it clear she is not welcome to come into my house for any reason.  (She violated that a few years ago and I consulted my lawyer and followed his advice to make sure she wouldn't do it again.)

If she is in my home, and melts down, I have a huge problem.  She could attack my physically, as she has done in the past, or throw things at me, or break my stuff.  I would have no way to get her out of the house;  if I touched her she would be sure to call the police and accuse me of DV.  Getting her out of the house once she is disregulated might be impossible, so it's better to never let her in the house in the first place.

I'm giving this as an example of a discipline that you can adopt, and practice 100% consistently, so others will see that you are acting like someone who has reason to be concerned.  For you, it might be best to never be alone with her, anywhere, without a non-family adult third party present.  Arrive to therapy, court etc. well in advance and remain in the waiting area where there are people around, and then wait til she is gone to leave.  Etc. - show by your actions that you have this very valid concern, based on what has happened, and that you are wise enough and disciplined enough to take steps to minimize the risk going forward.

I'm not saying you should never call it by its right name - "In Month/year Ms. Jed did such-and-such, and I am concerned that could happen again, so I minimize the contact between us, and do my best to avoid being alone with her." - when and how you think best.

Only that actions will speak louder than words.

Great point by matt -- bring a notebook with you. Even symbolically, writing things down in the session while your T and stbx watch is powerful.

Does it make sense in your sessions to ask the T to set some ground rules? Ask the T how you should handle false allegations. Ask her what you should do when your stbx cannot control her anger and rage. What should you do when she threatens you? Maybe show your T that you are the reasonable party who wants to problem-solve. And when T tells you what to do, and it doesn't work (because your ex is BPD), then your T will have 1) your interest in solving problems; 2) her clear guidelines for how to respond; and then 3) your ex's demonstrated inability to follow those guidelines.

What you want is to feel protected during your CP sessions and that probably isn't going to happen, especially while you're flooded with PTSD. But you can use these sessions strategically to protect yourself legally. That process might kickstart the deep healing that happens for many of us when we start to get some control back in our lives.

Commenting on your statement, "I am just afriad of what she could do if I were to meet her outside, she is unpredictable and angry."

When going thru a divorce... .  and one has moved out of the house... .  always meet a Borderline in a neutral place where there are lots of people.  Coffee shop, etc.   Make no exceptions. Again, make no exceptions.

Borderlines have no problem throwing themselves down on the ground and filing a police report that you hit them.  Rememer, they are great actors... .  and very convincing with their lies. They love chaos.  There are scores of stories. I am one of them.  Never get in a one-on-one situation or place... .  where it's your word against a Borderline as to what physically happened.  Be in a neutral place where unrelated witnesses can vouch for what happened.     

I had another session with her this morning, it is once a week now.  I brought a notebook with me but never got to take many notes because very little got done.  She simply used it to blindside  me with a copy of the 30 days notice she gave the landlord.   We had court last month and it was ordered that pending the outcome of the custody eval that the kids would remain in the family home and us parents move in and out. Her and her lawyer also agreed that she would pay the rent and the utilities on the house that we share with the kids as part of the comprimise.    Now 2 1/2 weeks later she gives 30 day notice to the landlord.   Dirty pool,  it is an attempt to use her economic advantage.    

I am not going anywhere though, not unless the sherriff comes and tells me I have to leave, I could pay the rent for a few months. I need to talk to the lawyer about this.   They are out of the office until monday.

Some background:  We both leased the place together 1 1/2 years ago but when she renewed the lease last June she did not put my name on it.

 This therapist doesnt seem to get it either. I am seriously thinking about requesting a different one.  

I also learned that she is not doing on of her jobs anymore because "they didnt offer it to me this semester"   Yeah right.   So she is just working part time.  

I swear the only thing these sessions are is an oppurtinity for her to engage me in drama.  

That's awful. I feel for you, sfbayjed. I came close to having to do the same thing, and can imagine how much dread you must feel about going.

Is she paying for the coparenting therapy? Can you revisit this with your L and suggest changing the T, or telling him that stbx is now pt, and given how ineffective this all is, and the fact she has not started anger management, that you postpone the coparenting therapy?

So... .  where will the "family home" be, besides on paper? That's the question for the lawyer IMO.

I agree with you - classes are not going to fix this. The problem is that too many people in the court-system and child service know nothing about how living with a BPD (w/NPD traits) actually is like. Therapists have read about it - but the truth is - unless you've experienced it, you don't really understand. Unfortunately, a few of us have though, that is why this page is so valuable and important. Finally, we find somebody that gets it! Realizing that the 'system' that should protect you and your kids is not working is truely a traumatic experience and is in my view the reason why so many of us become depressed.

I wish you and the kids all the best! Hang in there - I sure do!  

Very true.

I think one way to look at it is that we can't assume the system will get to the right answer, but if we understand enough about how the system works - which is different in different places - and if we find the right attorney, then we can work through the system to get a good outcome.  Much more difficult than it should be - my observation when I was going through it was that the system favors those who make the most extreme accusations and those who refuse to bargain in good faith - but in the end if we do everything we can the results will probably be OK.

Looking back, if I had done everything then that I know now, I think my results would have been very good.

I am going through it now, so I appreciate any advice.  I feel like I need to go for as much custody as I can get regardless of what the odds seem like. Only because I really think it is the best thing for the kids.   Otherwise I would be looking to cut a deal at this point.  It would be easier for me. She has to come up with the custody evaluation money, 8K according to her, this week (or so she says).   So she may be open to a deal at this point.  She said something today about doing 50/50 and giving 4K to find a place.   I dont believe it.  I have no idea what will happen in a CE. I might have to pay back 1/2 of it and it may end up 50/50 anyway, like last time.  

But I screwed up my life by taking a deal one time, do I want to screw up my kids lives by taking a deal now?  Or do I just go for it and do what I think is right regardless.  I am not perfect, for sure, my life is a mess, no job(for now), had trouble with the law, I leave dishes in the sink, sometimes I let the kids have orange soda and  I let them watch too much TV on a friday night.  I connect with those kids though on a level that my ex just never will, I can see and feel that and I know it's true. I have no dought that she knows it too on some level.  It's evident in all her compensations.  I just wish others involved could see it too.    

She is being very persistant in keeping her time and dr. appts and everything.  To her it is a competition at this point. She will bring her A game, Mrs. parent of the year.  "What rages?, I don't go into rages."    

Be aware that they could will simply assume that completing the AM classes will resolve her issues.  You know and we all know that a band-aid like that won't fix her, at least not for long.  She would need years of therapy and even that might not help.  How do you have court avoid having the issues considered 'resolved' and legally 'ignored' for future court decisions?

I faced a similar dilemma in divorce.  My ex did some things worthy of Contempt of Court decisions.  But my lawyer warned me that if a decision was made at that time, then the issues would have been considered "resolved" if we went to trial.  It was a catch 22... .  if she got contempt decisions and we went to trial then they they were legally resolved... .  if we let the judge hold the contempt decisions and then didn't go to trial, they she would never have faced her deserved consequences.  As it turned out, we settled on Trial Day and she skated on her consequences.

Side point, my lawyer told me that Contempt cases post-divorce were considered much more seriously.

So if at all possible try to find a way where her taking AM classes doesn't legally undo or 'fix' the findings of the mediator.  Somehow you need slight preference or a watchful eye looking out for the kids in the future.  Do your best to ensure you don't give up being Residential Parent.  Yes, the court could decide otherwise, court could prefer the mother over you, very unlikely with the actions thus far, but I wouldn't 'deal' it away, no way!  (Lots of mothers with questionable income options are RPs and have majority time!  So her claiming your financial situation is weak should not be something to hinder you!)

Your state probably has custody criteria.  Your lawyer should know, or you can find them online.  Or if your state doesn't have any, find the ones established in Minnesota - they are considered the Gold Standard - 9 criteria courts are supposed to use to establish custody.

Then consider each one and how you can show you're the best by that criteria.  Get that evidence in front of the court - mostly positive stuff about you but if there is evidence that's negative about the other parent, and it's fair and appropriate, include that too.  You may not want to label the information "9 Minnesota Criteria", just organize it so that all the evidence about each issue is together, with a summary saying, "Attachments A, B and C show that Mr. Jed is able to provide for all of Child's material needs.  Attachments D and E show that Mr. Jed is blah blah blah."  Etc.

You do what you can -- your "reasonable best" is how ForeverDad puts it. It's hard to save the maiden and battle pneumonia while fighting the dragons knowing that marauders are plundering your village and torching your home. Not the easiest time to be making excellent win-win decisions for all. Go easy on yourself right now, and forgive whatever choices you made that got you here. You're a good father and a good person, and you will make it through this.

But about your question -- you seem to already know the answer. You made a deal before and it didn't go well. For me, I did my reasonable best and I'm broke, but I would rather turn things around financially over the next 5-10 years than worry to death about my son.

I

As for co parenting sessions,  one suggestion is to have one or two sessions with just you and the therapist.  Offer the same to the Bline.  If both of you are always in the same session, the Bline will dominateand manipulate the agenda and conversation.   Having a separate session, you can download what is happening and not worry about a rebuttle coming back.  With one therapist, I copied the BPD traits off the internet and checked off all the ones to show my ex had 75% of the traits.  You can also download to the therapist all the bazaar stories and situations that have occured by the Bline.  Pay for these separate sessions.  Don't share in the expenses.  If the therapist doesn't think it's a good idea.   Drop them and find another.   

Yeah, I agree. You wrote
That is just going to hurt you. You may have to stick with the coparenting sessions, but definitely look for a new T. There are Ts who have special training in it. Even if you MC has training in it, there's too much history. When I met with the coparenting T the first time, my questions were all about safety. Coparenting is not safe when there has been domestic violence, so if you can't get out of it, then at least find a T who is not passive.

It makes a huge difference. The PC we use is very effective at setting reasonable boundaries. You need something similar. N/BPDx crosses the reasonable boundaries all the time, and that helps my case. Given how much you're going through, any small gain in feeling protected is going to go a long way.

I think you are right. I need to work on getting a different CP therapist.  The problem right now is that it is a court order.  I am going to call him and express my concers.  I do believe he is too passive and may not be experienced with high conflict personalities.  

Ex took the kids with her to look at appartments and then told them not to tell me about it. I had phone contact with my daughter yesterday and she said "we went to look at appartments, no, no I mean we went to the playground" and then laughed.   It's obvious that the ex is starting with the parential alienation.  

this thing with her and her lawyer making the offer to pay the rent and utilities pending the CE, then giving 30 days notice on the house 2 weeks later, knowing I am out of work seems highly unethical. My lawyer thinks so to. It bothers me that the CP therapist didnt seem to grasp that.

We are going to go back to court with it to request sanctions and support.   It really puts me in a bad situation and that was the point.  She is very transparent.  I can almost see how her minds work.   "I'll move out, he wont be able to get a place and will be homeless, therefore I will get the kids."  Of course she has cut her hours back to part time as well so I wont be able to get enough support.  What ever it takes to screw Jed over.

Luckily I have a little bit of money saved up and I can stay a few months if the landlord lets me.  the rent is high on the house, being the bay area.  

I need to contact the landlord soon.  

I have an interview today, hopefully that goes well.  

There is CA case law that a spouse can't purposely cut back on work and expect to reduce support.  I think it referenced a doctor that quit and started working flipping burgers and the court gave him a haircut.

I wonder if her excuse will be that she needed to make more time for the children... .  

However, there's probably also law that says being out of work may not be much of an excuse either since it's possible to subtly sabotage job searches.

I know it can be a hassle -- everything is a hassle when divorcing a pwBPD, and you've been beaten down. Making a change probably makes you feel weary to the bone. In your case, I think it will actually make you feel better to do this one thing even though it might not seem like a huge gain. Find out from your L what it will take to switch to another CP. The courts have lists of CPs usually, but I would do your own search. Find 2 or 3 that you think look good and give your ex the option so it looks like good faith. Just an FYI, too -- a lot of Ts who do coparenting are forensic psychologists. It's a sweeping stereotype, but many people go into forensic psychology for the money. I did research into the coparenting T we were assigned, and she had dollar signs in her eyes. I looked up her credentials, and she graduated with a Phd from a for-profit university. I don't know about other degrees from those universities, but psychologists -- they get virtually no ethics training and much less clinical experience at for-profit institutions. Just sayin'.


Yeah, you're right. Marriage counseling is very different than coparenting. Sounds like your T can't make the switch.


|iiii Good luck with the interview!

I think I have a good lawyer. We are going back to court asking for sactions for increasing the cost of litigation, majority custody pending the CE, and delaying coparenting until ex's anger management is complete.   The coparenting is on hold for at least a week now, as I have insisted that boundries be set before I continue.   Sitting one hour with her affected me for days.  It is hard to explain that to someone and have them believe you. I just cant do it at this point. 

The ex has been talking to the landlord and has painted me black in his eyes.  I called and asked if I could stay. His first response was no.  I explained the situation, I guess ex told him she was moving out of the kids, and I am sure she told him all about how I am an unemployed wife beating drug addict or alcoholic and what ever else she came up with.  He requsted I have my lawyer call him and she did.   She explained the situation and said that it seemed like the landlord thought I was the bad guy and that the ex had likely been talking with him. 

So, I was thinking of trying to inform the landlord about distortion campains and maybe give him some of the information on the case to hopefully change the way he sees me.   He has likely never heard of BPD.  I would really like to stay here for  now.  I think this guys opinion of me is going to be a big factor on the kids and I staying here or now.   It seems like the ex has been talking to the man for quite a while.

I should consider myself lucky because the landlord is the only one that I am aware of that the distortion has worked on so far.

If you can't work it out with the landlord, consider subpoenaing him at some point, to testify about what she told him.

I would bet she has been working on the landlord for months if not longer. My BPDexgf did the same with family, neighbors, acquaintances, etc. Very few of them would speak to me at all, and only a couple of people would tell me what she actually said to them. The rest of them treated me like I was a child molester. It would not surprise me if she went that far, considering the other things I have proof of her doing.

I think I warned you a while back not to underestimate your BPD. They are mentally ill but definitely not stupid.

It's possible the landlord can't imagine that at least some of the things ex said about you aren't true.  He may be convinced that with as much smoke as she was blowing his way, surely there must have been a fire there somewhere.  It's hard for a normal person not to be swayed when inundated by such a vehement and emotionally convincing magnitude of allegations, even when there are no facts or proofs.

So, how do you convince someone to stop being convinced by the other?  You could talk until you're blue in the face and you still might not connect, or the landlord could still have some remaining doubts.  If you can't convince the landlord to discount her ":)istortion Campaign", then what?  Why not review the section of Stop Walking on Eggshells around page 192 and even highlight the important points and then read to him right from the book - let the book be the authority - showing step by step that what is warned about there is precisely her pattern of behaviors and allegations?  Yes, you can't claim any specific diagnosis, but the point is, If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then... .  

That would work better if the landlord had ever seen - or even heard of - a duck.

Imagine trying to describe a platypus to someone who had never heard of them.

My ex got dumped by her lawyer. My lawyer told me that her lawyer said she dumped her because she is unethical for violated the stipulation we just made and because she is a bad mom.  Wow!  So here comes lawyer number 2.   We are requesting an emergency hearing and serving the new lawyer.   

I got all the paperwork to give the landlord, copies of all the court stuff too so he can see she how she lies.  I hope he lets me stay.  If he doesnt let me stay, I am staying anyway as I am not going to be ready to move anywhere.

It's a weird world when it's good news that our exes get dumped by their lawyers, but I totally understand how it feels. My ex's L just withdrew and I did a bit of a victory dance. We need to celebrate the small gains 

I hope things work out with your landlord and living situation. 

Hang in there.

Well, it seems to be the season for the BPDexes to switch lawyers. Mine got dumped by her bulldog atty back in Nov. Her new attorney still doesn't have a clue. Let the New, old lies begin again. Hopefully it doesn't take him as long to figure it out.

Best of luck in your emergency hearing.

There is definitely something in the air there... .  I bet some of the lawyers are narcissists and are attracted to the BPD.  But it is good when they see the light... .  

For me it is validating after all the years in the FOG to see that someone else can see she is crazy.  Not just someone else but her own attorney.  I know it does little for my case but it is good to see that her facade is trasparent to others.  

I agree that it is validating but at the same time it makes me feeling so stupid for spending so many years with the man without understanding what the problem was -him!

I underestimated how much I needed that validation. And when it is your ex's lawyer(s), there is this other temptation early on to want to convince them that you are not the bad person your ex paints you to be. My lawyer and people here always say to not worry about what the opposing party's L thinks -- it's their ethical duty to represent their client.

But it is awful hearing a total stranger take such an adversarial stance against you, based on lies and distortions and false allegations. The last time I saw my ex's lawyer, we ended up in the elevator with him (and my lawyer). That was after N/BPDx's major episode this summer, and I could tell he had a new opinion about me. He gave me an almost imperceptible look of kindness, just a few muscles around his mouth and eyes, and it took me by surprise how much that mattered.

I offered to give the landlord a' last months rent ' and I can finish out the lease until June. Showed him the court papers (public record anyway)  He accepted my offer.  I am not sure if I can stay past then but I am good for now. I am going to have to be very frugal.  The ex is moving to a bad part of town, the schools there suck.  There are apartments in this school zone, so with a little bit of good fortune I think I can pull if off and keep them in the same school and they can go on to middle school with their friends. There must be someone looking out for me. 

If you can help keep the kids in the same schools and school district, that will reflect favorably on you in front of the judge. Courts tend to want as much consistency as possible for the kids.

Glad to hear things are holding steady for you. Take heart in these small gains!

LnL

You can probably find some good information online, about the quality of the schools - their average test scores should be on each school's web site, or you can probably find them somewhere else - and also about the crime rates in each neighborhood.  Make the case - with data - that this neighborhood and this school are objectively safer and better than the other party's part of town.

I have been very stressed. It was starting to effect my health. I have been to the doctor, got on some anti-depresents and learned for breathing exercises which have helped a little. and got my thinking about trying something like yoga to help remove the stress. I have still been completely stressed though. Because I had court this morning.

Well we got new temp orders pending the custody evaluation. Mom has the kids every other weekend friday after school until monday bedtime. and on the alterante week a dinner visit on monday night from after school until bedtime.   Kind of a tweeked version of EOW and a dinner visit.   

 |iiii  To get the temporary order changed favorably before an evaluation is in is great.  It indicates the court saw a real need for change.

In my case, I had alternate weekends and an evening in between for over two years in two temp orders, one post-separation and the other post-filing.  The second one was issued after my ex had blocked my father-child contation totally for 3 months which had forced me to file for divorce in order to get court intervention.  Eleven months later the court's own social worker recommended my parenting time be increased to 50%.  Court just moved on to the next step.  Five months later the custody evaluator report stated she should immediately lose temp custody.  Court just moved on to the next step.  That's why I say this action by the court is good, it has enough information already to impel it to adjust the parenting time while waiting for the next report.

It's hard to see what's happening when you're in it, but I agree with FD -- this bodes well. We see ALL the bad behavior, and it seems like the courts don't. But they do see a lot. It's just that they move so freakishly slow, and they have to do everything by the book. When you make small gains like this, it's a really good sign.

Your ex is "high-functioning" the same way my ex is. They can hold down a job, but that's about it. Your ex has done a lot of things to shoot herself in the foot, all by herself, not even prompted by you. Mine did the same thing. I'm now at 96% custody and if you told me this would happen 2 years ago when I was freshly separated, I never would have believed you.

One of the stress busters that is recommended when it starts to affect health is mindfulness-based stress reduction. They have programs for teens where I live, but you'll have to look to see if there's anything offered in your area: www.tinyurl.com/findMBSR.

To add to the goodness, however seemingly minimal, you moving from equal time to majority time makes it very likely it won't go back to the way it was.  Having majority time also makes it a virtual slam dunk that you will be Residential Parent for School Purposes.

Yes, there is still contact with alternate weekends & a visit in between as though the other parent was more or less normal.  There may or may not be additional changes recommended or ordered.  But it's much better than it was.  Rejoice in that.

I agree - this is an important step forward.

Will the evaluation include objective psych evals, like the MMPI-2?

Can you request that - maybe ask the evaluator if she has the authority to do that?

And your ex, over time, will start to unload some of her custodial time unofficially, if she is similar to many of the BPD sufferers dealing with custody.

When you get things stabilized, your kids will start to bounce back too. My son was considered "at risk" at 8 years old, and now he's thriving by any measure. I can barely believe it. Not saying it will be a cakewalk, but just having a stable home, even if it's only part of the week, goes a long way. The stress will start to decrease once you're through this interim period when things are in such flux, and it will get easier.

I do not know if the evaluation will include the MMPI-2 because we both took it in '09.   We are getting an "updated costody evaluation" I am not sure what that means. 

I really hope there is a way I can figure out how to stay in this rental home. It is at the end of the court, there are kids the same age in the court too.  I dont have enough income to pull it off in the long term as things are.

The landlord actualy showed up at the hearing and testified. It's all so much stranger than fiction.

A friend pointed out that I might not be doing well at selling myself at interviews because I am "stressed and depressed". Seems to be an acurate observation. It is important to take care of yourself and exercise. This is something I have neglected. I have actualy gained 20 pounds in the last few months.  I am going to make an effort to reverse this trend starting today.   

 

Daily cardiovascular exercise - running, swimming, etc. for about half an hour - is also a big help for depression.