BPDFamily.com

Hi there, everybody 

I wish a Merry Christmas to each and everyone of you.

My potentially BPDexgf, with whom I'm apart 7 months now and NC for approximately 4 months now, except a limited contact regarding a practical matter on early December, texted my sister last Saturday, December the 22nd.

Her text was as follows:

''Goodmorning, (my sister's name). I've been wanting to write to you for a long time now, but I've always been postponing it. I guess I feel motivated to do so now, as this year comes to its end. I'd like to apologize for not responding to your phone-call on early September. I was receiving tremendous and systematic pressure by Tony at that time, which made me unable to manage any kind of communication with you with calmness. I'd also like you to know that I didn't use your brother as a stepping-stone to break free from my marriage. I believed in this r/s and I wanted to make a life, a family with him. However, reality showed entirely different things. My feelings for Tony haven't changed, although I'm struggling to overcome them. This will take time, that's the only sure thing. These are more or less the things I've been wanting to tell you. You've been a very special acquaintance for me. Please, if I'm not asking for too much, do not tell Tony about this text. Please just don't tell him. I wish you and your family a happy holiday and may we all become better people through the hardships we're going through.- (her name)''


I found out about this on Monday, as I am visiting my sister for the holidays and she, naturally, couldn't have kept this from me, as she has witnessed what I've been through after the exgf dumped me. I've been thinking and analyzing what she wrote eversince I read it.

I would really appreciate to know your opinions about this, as well as any suggestion regarding if and how should I react to this... .

She's having a little pity party. Her novel text message is pointless blabber that you and your sister can ignore.

Hey Tonyk,

Sorry you got hit with this.  I used to take Ex's emails and rewrite them to help me decipher them.  Such as... .

I've been wanting to write to you for a long time now, but I've always been postponing it.

I've felt this pop up screen reminding me that I haven't replied to your phone call but I ignored it until now.  (Lord knows why, maybe to indirectly passive aggressively ping you)

I guess I feel motivated to do so now, as this year comes to its end.

Year end was my drop dead date so I'm taking care of this pop up now. (what's the big deal with year end?)

Can you take it from there?

You know, Tony, that's really interesting.  I'd encourage you not to overanalyze what she sent, but I know you'll do it anyway.  I had to delete the last email I got from mine.  It was probably the best thing I ever did.

Now I can tell you a few things.  The first is how I reacted to this as an outsider.  It's a little different than the embittered responses you first received.  She appears to have a soul.  That she feels bad in some way for what happened.  She's unwilling to take too much responsibility as she shows in referencing your "systematic pressure".  It would have been an absolute shock had she done so, though.  This is pretty impressive given the source in my estimation, and I would take it for what it's worth.  The relationship meant something to her.  You weren't just someone to toss aside.  It does really read like it's over for her.  I believe she's using your sister as a proxy to communicate this message, whether she knows it or not.

The line that I'm sure has you stumped the most is her emphasizing that she does not want this message communicated to you.  Why write this then, right?  Remember a borderline makes very little sense.  My experience with my ex told me that she used reverse psychology a lot.  She was so sensitive to rejection that she often said the opposite of what she really wanted to happen.  In this case, I do believe she wanted this message communicated to you.  Borderline or not this reads like pretty standard female "please don't hate me for breaking up with you" mumbo jumbo.  You went to great lengths not to see or talk to her by having that article of clothing sent to the dry cleaner.  She likely interpreted that as you hating her, which is understandable.  Remember she did the good and decent thing there by dropping it off.  She could have used that issue to manipulate things further.  She did not.

I would not respond to this as there's anything left to say.

So incredibly hard... .she was smart about it.  Of course she knew your sister would relay the message. She was telling you how she felt without dealing directly with you.

Maybe you can take this message as closure?

You might want to pause if you are considering responding, because of the way it was done, you would be kind of throwing your sister under the bus.  I think she knew this.  I think she was having a somewhat lucid moment and wanted to express things for her own closure... .but wanted you to know as well and just let it be.

You are asking for honest opinions here.  This is my opinion. You should not react to it in any way.  You should pretend your sister did not share info with you that was explictly requested that she not.

A lot of outsiders will agree that the intent was to get back to you... .but if she would like to have discourse with you she should address you directly and not put people you care about in the middle.

If you are able to, from an outsiders perspective, you have been given a gift of some closure without having to interact directly. Your Ex had an honest moment, and was expressive... .it's sad she couldn't say that to you when it mattered, but maybe she knows that is not for the best in the long run.  So perhaps you can breath easier knowing she cared, knowing that she is having to deal with the break up in a similar way as you... .both of you knowing you aren't healthy for each other and must part ways and it is sad.  Consider yourself lucky as some of our friends never get a glimpse.

Closure, for you and for her... .in my opinion it's best to end on that note.  Any other action after this may not be as kind to you or her.

I believe this was closure. I don't think it was "smart" in a manipulative way, rather it was smart to avoid risk. But to be honest, it's really a dumb move according to me...

If I "throw away" common sense and put some "BPD" logic in it... .

She knows how she has acted and that it's not accepted behavior. (I've acted poorly, I feel empty, I should apologize)

She knows how she feels and tries to justify the behavior to get it accepted. (It was the right thing to do, he did XYZ to me... )

Quite a massive battle between both, that lacks common sense. (Splitting back and forth)

To get some relief she wants support and compensate. To make it low-risk, she uses a proxy. (Pride, low self-esteem)

Using someone as a proxy is disrespectful to that person. (BPD, lack of understanding)

Though she did initiate contact, so you create a lot of feelings inside her. Love/Hate or whatever you want to call it. She's definitely not indifferent and still have feelings.

I agree that you should take it as a closure. Acting this way is really not mature or responsible. However, remember it's not evil either. It's just still the lack of skills/capacity that she always missed.

Just one question

Did she leave you for someone else?

TonyK

In my opinion the txt was an attempt to triangulate... .

The message can be BPD de-ciphered as "I've put this off until now as I've had no need to contact you, now I have a need... .in this moment in time. I feel it's all Tonys fault... .PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let him know"... .

The decision on whether or not you respond is yours... .what do YOU want?... .

From what I have read, she did have someone lined up and had been cheating on you?

So, she did it to her husband, then you , now it will be new man.

She's trying to justify herself here, because she can only get by in a relationship for so long until you stop playing ball and she has sucked your soul out and has an unknowing replacement.

She wont change, will just give you a new level of stress and bs, my ex did the same, got with me while in an ltr, then did same to me and I would hate to have her contact me it would screw my head up.

Do what you feel you should.

I agree with Newton... .she's attempting to triangulate.

My stbex uBPDh attempted the very same thing with my parents; it didn't work.

CopingWith(Out)Him

Who exactly is she attempting to triangulate him with here?  We can speculate that something is going on in her current relationship.  Taken at face value, though, she's using the friend to communicate a cryptic message to him.  As I remember this story there had been next to no contact until he reached out to her to return an article of clothing.  It's likely this triggered her to respond in kind.  It doesn't appear to me that she's trying to pit the sister against him in any way.  You are reaching.


Really?  I realize these BPD partners behaved very poorly in many cases.  You have got to take a step back from what happened to you, and assess each individual case for what it's worth.  You and a few others that responded here are painting with a very broad brush, and largely ignoring the substance of what was written here.  At least some compassion for the BPD'er here would help.  They are seriously disordered after all.  It's no picnic being them either.  I mean as long as you're pulling the ouija board out of moth balls, why did you selectively ignore the part where she said she cared about him?

What she said to him is better than 95% of the non's that populate these boards ever get.  There's no need to project our own relationship bs onto Tony's particular case.  I mean there's likely a lot more going on in her life.  We could own Vegas after we cashed that bet.  Wading around in that sort of speculation really seems pointless.  From reading here and elsewhere, Tony understands who she is now.  This combined with the nice things she said here will allow him to process the aftermath of this relationship that much more.

My exBPDgf showed up at my mom's house to try to get her to talk me in to recycling with her. My mom is 70 and I am 50... and my mom was very cool about it... ."Sounds pretty childish, you are 45... shouldn't you be able to talk to him and sort things out without running to his mommy?"... .which flustered her and she left. My sister introduced me to my exBPDgf, and was her friend for years... but she avoided my sister... sis is a nurse and works with psyche patients and is kind of brutal on people she feels are being manipulative, amazing how my pwBPD didn't mind trying to put my mom in the middle, but dodged her old friend who she know would read her the riot act.

My take is that your pwBPD was willfully manipulating you via your sister and it was no accident, not something she couldn't help and took a good deal of thought to get just right. That is what they do, if at all possible don't react at all. Wait, if your pwBPD is anything like mine, there will be more direct communications... .which you probably should ignore as well. Easier said than done... .keep strong, good luck.

oletimefeelin... .I stand by my personal interpretation of the text TonyK received from his ex... .

As it's been suggested in your post that I, (and others) are "painting with a broad brush"... .I would firstly refer you to your own comments ie/...


"... .this reads like pretty standard female "please don't hate me for breaking up with you, mumbo jumbo".

"... .Remember a borderline makes very little sense"

"... .What she said to him is better than 95% of the non's that populate these boards ever get"


And secondly I would ask that if you wish to challenge my interpretation of the txt TonyK provided to this forum, that from now on it's done via personal message so we can continue the discussion without hijacking the thread with a tit for tat disagreement.

Hi there, friends, and thank each and every one of you for taking the time to express your opinions about this issue for me. I really appreciate it. 

I would like to apologize for responding with delay to your posts, however I didn't get the opportunity to respond earlier.

I will read all of your posts very carefully. This community means a lot to me and the support and knowledge I've been given here is really invaluable.

Thank you so very much... . 

So, this series of indirect contact initiated by the exgf had a couple of new episodes, which I'd like to report here for educational reasons, regarding the reactions of and the interaction between a potentially BPD person (i.e., the exgf) and a potentially otherwise PD person (i.e., myself).

After a week from reception of the initial text reported in the beginning of this thread, I had my sister reply to the exgf through a text, which was of course composed by me. The main objectives were the following:

1) To trigger her rage, by confronting the major piece of BS contained in her text.

2) To over-exaggerate the pain I went through after she dumped me, in order to validate her unconscious self-belief that she's an evil, shameful, undeserving-of-love person, in an attempt to inflict a direct strike into her core.

3) To convince her that her message wouldn't have been relayed to me anyway, in order to trigger her rage further and force her to clarify her intentions regarding this round of indirect contact.

4) To briefly inform her that I'm gradually coming over her, in order to destabilize her and increase her insecurity.

5) To induce her to triangulate herself, my sister and me, in the roles of victim (of course... .), persecutor and potential rescuer, respectively.   

The message she received - supposedly by my sister - was the following:


''(exgf's name), what you're doing with your life is your privilege and absolutely non

of my business. However, please don't underestimate my intelligence. Because that's

what you do, when you tell me you still have feelings for my brother, while

sleeping with another man. Tony is not the man he used to be. This past

summer and autumn I got scared of how he was. He's gone through great tradegies

in his life, which you're aware of. However, it's never been that bad before. He

was in a desperate condition, both emotionally and physically. He'd lost about

20 pounds, we struggled so hard to bring him about. We were all so terribly

upset, us, my parents, even my kids. Do you know that for the last 4 months

he's driving almost weekly to (city name, 440 miles go-and-return ride from where I live), taking therapy? It's been only until very recently that he's started to revive again. He's already started building his new life from absolute zero and he's doing very well, you know. You asked me not to tell him about your contact with me. I wouldn't have told him even if you asked me to. His wounds are healing and I won't allow anything to make them bleed again, at least as long as it is in my control. So, I haven't told him and I will not tell him anything. There's only one thing I ask of you, do not hurt him any more. It's been enough! That's the only thing I'm interested in. Other than that, you can do whatever you want with your life. I think, there's

nothing more to say. I wish you and your child a Merry Christmas and I also

wish you all find your ways in life without any more pain.-(my sister's name)''


It seems that the message triggered her indeed, because she responded after just 10 minutes, lashing out at my sister. I don't have the exact text to quote yet, however I've  been briefed by phone. It seems that she got mostly annoyed by the remark about BS my sister for her feelings for me, while sleeping with another man. She mentions that she would never return to me and that this has nothing to do with the loneliness or not in her bed (?). (Then why bother to mention her feelings in the first place?)

She blames my sister for taking my side ''of course'' and that she's only heard my side of the story and not hers.

And she finishes by stating that ''it's been indeed enough!'', obviously angry at my sister's demand not to hurt me again, because it's been enough.

I find odd that she makes no comment whatsoever regarding the post break-up tortment I went through and which was deliberately exaggerated in the message, in order to create more drama and trigger her reaction. Unable or unwilling to accept any personal responsibility, she passes it by and retaliates.

This exchange took place past Friday night and there was no other contact since then.

It's being a rather intriguing experiment so far... . 

TonyK,

Honestly - What do you want to come out from this?

At first I was just in wonderment at this thread as everyone tries their best to interpret the text. But as been stated, it can not be interpreted in a "non's" thought process because it comes from a the mind of a disordered person.  2010 had a great post where she interpreted a similar text/email.  But based on her translation method, I've written my interpretation in bold below.  I wish 2010 would read this and grade me on how much I've learned.

What I write might sound cruel or demeaning.  It's not meant to be. It's the honest truth of what I think is being said, without judgement.  My ex's writing were just as cryptic, and whenever I responded it was always turned back against me.  The disorder always wins.  Nothing I ever said could bring self awareness, remorse, or responsibility to my ex.   In order the keep NC, I just had to stop reading them.  Any responses just furthered the enmeshment in the disorder.



I've been wanting to write to you for a long time now, but I've always been postponing it. I guess I feel motivated to do so now, as this year comes to its end. I'd like to apologize for not responding to your phone-call on early September.

I've not even thought about you until now, but it occurred to me that I might possibly be able to use you as a tool in my plans.

I was receiving tremendous and systematic pressure by Tony at that time, which made me unable to manage any kind of communication with you with calmness.

I was out of control, splitting back and forth, and literally driving Tony insane.

I'd also like you to know that I didn't use your brother as a stepping-stone to break free from my marriage. I believed in this r/s and I wanted to make a life, a family with him.

I used him as an object to focus my idolization so that I could flee my marriage with a replacement already ready for me.

However, reality showed entirely different things. My feelings for Tony haven't changed, although I'm struggling to overcome them. This will take time, that's the only sure thing.

My feeling are in continuous flux and no one can know where they are at any moment. I have an attachment disorder and don't even know who I am. How can I be sure of anything, especially my feelings. But I'm having moments of abandonment depression, and I think I'd like to keep Tony hooked in reserve if I need to use him some more.

These are more or less the things I've been wanting to tell you.

to tell TONY

You've been a very special acquaintance for me.

I hope you're an effective tool to leverage TONY.

Please, if I'm not asking for too much, do not tell Tony about this text. Please just don't tell him.

Tell tell tell Tony

I wish you and your family a happy holiday and may we all become better people through the hardships we're going through.- (her name''

I have no capacity for empathy so I don't know or really care what you are going through, but I'm a waif so come rescue me.

Hmm, thank you, draft. I've been honestly asking this question to myself.

I guess, a part of the answer is curiosity.

Another part is to prove to myself, beyond reasonable doubt, that she's BPD. Because only then will my ego be able to recover from her loss. You see, if she ain't BPD, then it means that I blew it. And if it was me who blew it, then it means that I had the ideal woman of my dreams in my hands and I lost her because of my mistakes. In such case, how could I live with this failure? 

Apart from the above, at present time there's no other interest or excitement in my life. I'm in the middle of therapy and I've been strongly advised by my T not to make any major moves in my life at this period. I.e., don't proceed divorcing your wife, don't communicate with the BPD(?)exgf, don't try any new relationships because they will fail! I feel like I'm ill and hospitalized, for crying out loud! I live in a city far from my family, with no friends around. I got to have smthg to pass my time during my stay in the ''hospital'', do you follow?

Furthermore, perhaps she's already entered the devaluation period with my replacement and she's looking for someone to cheat on him. I wouldn't mind having a few more ''rounds'' with her on the side, given that I've been mostly ''dry'' for the past 7 months. It would last like a week or so, before she gets berzerk on me again, I know. But, what the heck, I know her traits now. Why skip the fun if I get a chance?

Well, more or less that's what I have in mind about your question... .  :)   

Wow, my dear Schroder's, that was amazing! Thank you very much for this, I really appreciate it! Very, very advanced indeed... .

You're right, I think member 2010 would be proud of you!  |iiii

I'd like to take the chance here and say that the primary reason I've been publishing the exact content of my communications with her, now and in the past, is because I think that processing and analysing ''raw'' material coming directly from them, can advance our understanding, our knowledge and our insight about the distortion. I'm a scientist and I've worked in research for more than 10 years. My field has nothing to do with psychology, however the whole issue has intringued me in ways that resemble a scientific experiment.

I apologize if this may sound somewhat immoral to certain members of the board, but let's not forget that all of us in here have paid - and still pay - an enormous emotional cost, as a result of our interaction with pwBPD.   

Schroder's, do you by any chance have a link to that post?

TonyK I've read many a post that this was something a person needed to truly get that closure.  But, if you look just at the behavior alone and you found that it wasn't what you needed or a healthy relationship for you isn't that enough?

Why is it important to hinge this on all one person (her) or the other (you)?  Could it be a situation where there were mistakes by both, but the relationship just wasn't functional? 

TonyK, I know a break up is a hard blow and I'm sure if you look through your old relationship that it was full of  red-flag  so trust your gut instinct, it's far better than a diagnose.

Honestly, they don't know better - They don't have evil master plans. It's like a child that never learns just burns, every time on every stove and blames every new stove. Again and again and again... .Once you walk away and detach from it, it's just like a very sad and pathetic movie. On repeat.

Take care of yourself and make sure you don't loose your personal values of right and wrong in this. Your therapist seems to have some good guidance for you.

Oh that response made me smile.  Sorry, not made of wood, it was good stuff.  Go Sis!  Now you do probably realize that it should have never been sent.  I've read enough BPD boards to know the response... .his pain?  Sure he is a little hurt but I'm the one suffering... .(sigh).

Writing reponses is great therapy.  Sending?  No no no.  Because it opens up more chances for them to hurt you. We've got enough wounds trying to heal, do not need more.

You are as deserving of love as anyone else.  This was not a healthy r/s.  Let it go.  Work on loving and taking care of Tony, the more you love yourself, the more you will insist on others doing the same.

lol  What a great way of putting it. |iiii

My immediate reaction when I read her text was that she was trying in a back door passive-aggressive way to come between you and your sis. To make your sis doubt you just a little and paint herself to look awesome, insightful, compassionate, introspective, sane, caring, etc. It's triangulation (read definition) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=121673.0) and it's sneaky. It's an attempt to stir up drama where previously non any longer existed. Just let it go. Let it turn into the worthless vapor it is... .

Be glad you escaped. Hugs

Poodle

Thank you very much, Poodle! That's exactly what I mentioned in a previous post earlier today: this looked also to me like triangulation (read definition) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=121673.0)! However, there are questions... .

If I've studied the theory correctly, their triangles form always with them in victim's position, right? And there has to be also a persecutor and a rescuer. If your approach is correct, then her message was an attempt to put me in the position of the persecutor and my sis in the position of the rescuer, in this particular triangle. I thought so myself.

Therefore, in order to reverse this, the ''sister's'' reply had to be explicitly irruptive to her, while I had to stay explicitly unaware of and uninvolved in their communication. This way the ''sis'' forced herself in the persecutor's position.

So, now the persecutor's position seems to be ''occupied'' by two people, while the rescuer's position remains empty in this particular triangle. The question then is, who does she turn to for the ''rescue'' after this evolution? Or is it that because her particular triangulation (read definition) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=121673.0) attempt seems to have failed, she acknowledges that and retreats?   

The whole thing is purely academic, but rather interesting, I think... .

It is interesting and fascinating at the same time. When I think of triangulation (read definition) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=121673.0) (in its purest bare bones form) I think of using others to get your message to another, rather than going directly to the person you actually wish to communicate with. Or to try to win someone over to your side by feeding them a load of crap. My family did this all the time. i.e. - mom would say something to me that my sis supposedly said about me to her that was negative. Of course sis never really said this and then I would be mad at sis bc she said something mean about me. Meanwhile, sis has no idea why I'm upset and mom is in the middle getting to look like and be the good guy and acting like she just wished her girls could get along and not understanding why they can't. But the whole thing was started by BPDm who wanted to stir up drame in the family and make herself appear a victim and a wonderful mother who was so worried that her daughters were upset. Meanwhile, then I'm making negative comments to mom about sis bc I'm hurt and bc of a perceived slight and sis is telling BPDm negative things about me bc of perceived slights. It's a vicious cycle. Mom all the while is siding with each of us when talking to us but saying exact opposite when talking to the other daughter. It's horribly manipulative and unnecessary and destroys families. It's completely toxic. This was what I meant by trianguulating. Your ex has the privlege of saying (making up) anything she wants, telling your sis and then counting on sis to relay it to you which jabs at you and makes you question your own memory or reality "were things really that bad?" "Maybe I'm overreacting?"

Hope that all made sense! Lol!

Poodle

It is interesting and fascinating at the same time. When I think of triangulation (read definition) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=121673.0) (in its purest bare bones form) I think of using others to get your message to another, rather than going directly to the person you actually wish to communicate with. Or to try to win someone over to your side by feeding them a load of crap. My family did this all the time. i.e. - mom would say something to me that my sis supposedly said about me to her that was negative. Of course sis never really said this and then I would be mad at sis bc she said something mean about me. Meanwhile, sis has no idea why I'm upset and mom is in the middle getting to look like and be the good guy and acting like she just wished her girls could get along and not understanding why they can't. But the whole thing was started by BPDm who wanted to stir up drame in the family and make herself appear a victim and a wonderful mother who was so worried that her daughters were upset. Meanwhile, then I'm making negative comments to mom about sis bc I'm hurt and bc of a perceived slight and sis is telling BPDm negative things about me bc of perceived slights. It's a vicious cycle. Mom all the while is siding with each of us when talking to us but saying exact opposite when talking to the other daughter. It's horribly manipulative and unnecessary and destroys families. It's completely toxic. This was what I meant by trianguulating. Your ex has the privlege of saying (making up) anything she wants, telling your sis and then counting on sis to relay it to you which jabs at you and makes you question your own memory or reality "were things really that bad?" "Maybe I'm overreacting?"

Hope that all made sense! Lol!

Poodle

I also see the triangulating (read definition) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=121673.0) as bringing in another person to make you jealous... lot of that... because if they have an emotional hook in to you, that is painful and can give them control. It is all about control/manipulation in some ways.

Dear GreenMango,

With all due respect, many people have been asking me this question, when the answer is quite simple and obvious to me. I'll try to make it clear to you, too.

Of course I have serious issues myself. Of course I have great personality deficiences or perhaps even distortions. Of course I made mistakes in my r/s with the exgf and her child.

Nonetheless, if she is BPD, it means that my issues and deficiences and mistakes were not the critical causes that dissolved our r/s. If she is BPD, then it was only a matter of time when she would dump me. If she is BPD, it would have made no difference to the conclusion of our r/s, even if I was perfect and had made no mistakes.

Even if I had divorced my wife from day 1, even if I had been the best stepfather for her child, even if I had attended her every need, even if I had satisfied her every wish, even if I had fulfilled her every demand, it would have made no difference! She would have eventually dumped me anyway! She would have married me, she would have had our child and then she would have cheated on me and dumped me in cold-blood, exactly like she did to her ex-husband. And then I would have to cope with her for the rest of my life!

Her being BPD makes a tremendous difference, because then I can be certain beyond doubt about what my future with her would have been like.

In contrast, if she's not BPD, the ''what if... .'' questions will never get out of my mind and I will always be blaming myself for wasting the love of my life.

It's really as simple as that. No black and white thinking. Just inductive reasoning... .

Poodle and charred:

I think the three of us use the term ''triangulation (read definition) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=121673.0)'', however we mean different things.

I was referring to Karpman drama triangle and probably misused the term ''triangulation (read definition) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=121673.0)''.

Tony we all drag stuff into these relationships.  None of us would be here if we didn't we would have heeded the signs.

I ask about the confirmation of BPD because its very unlikely that a diagnosis will happen.  In therapy pros are reluctant to give the diagnosis for a lot reasons.  A big one is the risk the patient runs and denies because the defense mechanisms and poor coping skills.  They focus on behavior and destructive stuff.

You may not get that confirmation but you can look at what you needed, like honesty or fidelity or calmness in a relationship, and measure that to what you actually had while with her.  It's hard if we are emotionally raw to take a step back a little and look mindfully at what was going on with a mix of logic and emotion instead of just emotions.

Did you get what you needed in a relationship from her?

TonyK, the stuff you're looking at is what a lot of posts here could be whittled down to. Was it them or was it us? Of course it's a mixture of both, but I know where you're coming from and feel for you having been there too (not that it's quite 'past-tense' yet).

Looking at what you did, and how you were with her, versus how she was with you, how does it honestly all add up to you? If you're seeing you did more wrong than her, then it may well be on you. If you did what you could, and she couldn't reciprocate (or not enough), it may be more on her. Since you're not her therapist, you can't diagnose her, same as I've never been able to actually 100% claim my ex has BPD. I just don't know. Her actions seem to point this way, and from all the research trying to figure out how best to help our relationship, while inside of it, and trying to figure it out when we've been broken up. Sadly, a PD is very likely. Nothing else comes close. I deal with my own stuff with a really good T, so I'm pretty aware of what's mine and what's not. Please continue digging into what is yours, because it's really most important to your own progress no matter if you're with this particular woman or someone else or not.

I have to say, there's no way for any of us to be 'certain beyond doubt' about the future. I know someone who has been married a long time, has a good family, no PD's going on, and her husband's dying of cancer. It came out of nowhere. They're devastated, but dealing with it as best they can. Love, commitment, trust, and ___ happens. It's different, but... .Knowing that your ex has BPD or not would not change the future. I know you mean it as in maybe you could have handled things differently, but again, how did you already handle them? Were you loving with her? Were you nice with her? I found out 2 years ago my gf could have BPD and I stayed with her, validated, changed my own patterns, etc. She still left. I still have to ask myself 'where do I go from here?'

Plus, as Green Mango asked:


Whether she is disordered or not, rich or poor, whatever: How was she with you? What made you call it quits? Whatever name you want to call it, how did it affect you? Are you better off still being a part of that, or better off without? It's about You, not her.

I don't know if this is revelant or not but that's never stopped me before.  :)  When I think about my part of the dance, I tend to pick the same type over and over.  If a person is continually attracted to the same unhealthy relationship, then the issue lies with the person.  Or in my case, working on my own troubled past and deciphering why I keep picking the same type.  May not be your experience TonyK, just throwing it out there.

Happy New Year everybody! 

There's a brand new episode in this thread, which compels me to report anew to the board. I entered my e-mail account a few minutes ago, in order to send an irrelevant e-mail to a friend, but, instead, I found an e-mail from the potentially BPDexgf in my inbox.

The message was delivered today, approximately 1 1/2 hour ago. It writes:

''Without intending, I found out that you're into therapy. This piece of information gave me the necessary push forward, because I don't hide from you that all the evil you spewed up on me all the time we were together, as well as during the months that followed our break-up, had literally detained me until very recently. I will find the room for forgiveness, too, without any help, but I'll make it. Goodbye.

P.S.: As a final favor, I ask you not to respond to me.''


Is this absolutely crazy and meaningless, or am I crazy?

She is trying to suck me back in, isn't she?

Tony I don't mean to make light of your situation at all... .  it sucks... .  I had a wry smile on my face as I read her words to you.  I have a very similar txt from my ex on my old phone... .  

ie/ "Newton you are in therapy so YOU are the one with issues and the one to blame for our troubles (projection and denial)... .  I have to struggle on alone with no help (guilt trip)... .  

The last line of her email is begging you to respond... .  will you?

So you in therapy confirms for her that you are the one with issues.  Nice little twist on reality.  She can not absorb for one moment that she had any part in you seeking therapy.  What will irk her the most is complete silence.  She pokes but good.  And throwing in the I wasn't done until NOW.  Another hook!

Do you see it?  The pull?  Of course she wants to play but by her rules.  That you are evil, you are the only one with issues.  Can you play that game?

Hi, there, Newton and Rose! Thanks for responding and it's really nice to hear from you again, my friends  

Firstly, I'm really awed by the similarity of the two messages! It's amazing, isn't it? It's a pattern. It's the first time in all those months I really believe she's crazy. And, to be frank, I'm a bit scared right now... .  

I will reply today, late at night. I expected her contact, after her attempt to contact me through my sister ''failed''. She did buy it, that my sister didn't relay the message to me. I outsmarted her and it feels good... .  Her disorder forced her to contact me directly. She couldn't have helped it.

I think that I can and I think that I will play that game. I know all you nice people strongly disagree, but I feel in control of this round.   

Tony - second doubt whether you really want to play it! There is no win! So another round will probably only result in losers - what's there to win for you this round?

You will do what you need to do... .  what do you hope to achieve by using the knowledge you have now to manipulate her?... .  

another question... .  what are you scared of?... .  

I'll be frank... .  a response to her seems like subtle revenge on your part... .  

Is it facing your fears kind of thing?  The major concern is further loss of self esteem for you.  Well that and false domestic violence charges.    Go in with eyes wide open, my friend.

I haven't decided yet.

I'm an engineer! My background is to always put theory in action, to implement theoretical things into practice.

Maybe that's it. I've read so much theory about BPD in here, that I'm now so eager to turn the darn ''machine'' on and see if it ''operates'' according to theory.

I'm curious. Yes, yes, I know, curiosity killed the cat, I know, I know... .    :)

Well as a logical deductive man I can see how the empirical approach will suit your purpose  :)

Unfortunately this experiment could cause you yet more pain... .  

So what's this about?... .  perhaps proving she has BPD will soothe your negative feelings?... .  

The feelings that sound out in thoughts like "I tried my best... .  I gave my all... .  this isn't my fault!, could I have done something different that would have resulted in a better outcome"... .  ?

:)


Newton, my friend, I know. Believe me, I know she will strike me more. But, this is no longer a major issue for me. I'm no longer so sensitive to what she says or does. My skin is so much thicker after the whole experience. My life is on a different path now. There are other issues in my life that concern me more. Much more serious issues. 


What I'm looking for is to put the gravestone in the right position and seal the grave of our failed r/s for good, so that the stink of it's rotting corp does no longer poisson the air of my life. And, thus, I will move on, once and for all. Excuse me for sounding a bit poetic, it was an inspiration of the moment... .  


Also true... .  

It's a magnificent feeling right now. It's been so carefully designed from before the gimme-back-my-coat contact. Every piece of it, every move, carefully planned and executed, precise like clockwork. Have you ever felt this feeling? When theory matches the experimental finding? When prediction is validated by reality? Oh, it just feels so good... .  

I can hear in the tone of your typing (I hope that makes sense!)... .  that you have turned a corner... .  

I'm so pleased for you... .  it sounds like your head is well above the fog now!... .  

I would offer a word of caution... .  it's your choice to heed it or not.  People with BPD can be very predictable in their responses, behavioral patterns and language... .  and they can also be predictably unpredictable, behaving in ways we could not conjure up in our darkest times.

My point is that yes... .  the knowledge we gain here gives us power over them... .  but with that power comes responsibility... .  

It's really important that you examine the motives that may lead you to respond to this email from her.  Whats the emotion that is driving that possible behaviour?... .  

Your response will give you temporary satisfaction that you now know how to beat her at her own game... .  isn't this a little bit vengeful?

Silence will send a clear message that you've had enough... .  it will give you your closure.

You are obviously a very intelligent man... .  do you need to prove that to someone who is mentally ill?

ps... .  wax lyrical as much as you see fit... .  I do!   

Please forgive me if this sounds snarky or rude, I don't mean it to, I just calls em as I sees em... .  

It sounds to me like you DO want to re-engage. Like you DO want to keep playing the game. Do you think she really cares if you "think" you manipulated or outsmarted her? NO. She cares that she hooked you back in thus proving to her that she still has the power. From reading your recent posts, it appears she does still have power over you otherwise you wouldn't be so fixated on responding/winning a game in which she initiated by contacting your sister. To have avoided this, there should never even have been a reply from your sister, no matter how clever it seemed. Don't you see how this just keeps the contact going. You have to fight through the urge to play. The greatest weapon you have against her is  your profound and deafening silence. It takes two to tango so let her find someone else to dance with. When I have the urge to respond, I hit the delete button and say "there, take that!" It can be soo satisfying. Let her sit there checking her email everyday and feeling frustrated that she has in fact lost the game.

Wishing you well as you let go and move on. Deny her the thing she really wants which is more drama.

Hugs... .  

Poodle

If it's quacking and walking, right? Thing is, she's not a 'machine'. She's a human being. Disordered, could be, but proving that one way or the other won't help you very much. Haven't you already seen enough proof, anyway? You're no longer in the relationship. Whatever reasons were there were there. Also: Putting yourself in her shoes, how would you feel to be considered an 'experiment'? (Not that she'd know, but... .  )

As Newton said, "Silence will send a clear message that you've had enough." To yourself, as well. Best to move along from this, live a calmer life. No more push and pull.

The opposition has spoken, loud and clear.

Now, those in favor, please raise their hands... .  

Somebody... .  

Anybody?

Nobody?

Tony,

This whole scenario is very interesting.  I had wondered if the whole dry cleaning thing was calculated and you answered that question.  Part of me says see what happens.  Then I wonder is there something else he's being dishonest about here?  How much "proof" will you need?  Do you need to see this in loving color one more time?

No matter how much proof you have, you are still left with you.  Your own baggage and whatever you brought into this unhealthy dance with this complicated woman.  At some point, the music will stop here and that's what you are left with.  Is that possibly the reason why you continue to engage her?  That it's easier than focusing on your own issues.  She's a necessary distraction for you.

Do you have any sense for where she's getting the information that you are seeing a therapist?  Did you plant this as well?

Silence will always win. 

Hi TonyK

I don't interact on this site much but I would just like to say. Please do what you feel you need to. Nobody is right or wrong with the advice you are given it will always rest firmly on your shoulders what ever you decide to do.

Will it give you closure, who knows, will it cause you more pain who knows. Only you have the answer to these questions.

Will it cause your ex pain, maybe it will but again only she will know. From my interaction with my ex when I have tried to use psychological tools on her it did create pain for her but as she has told me on many occasions she hates herself and I know this. I did this to try and affirm the BPD diagnosis a doctor, psychologist and T had already told me they firmly believed she had it from my description.

Did it give me closure? I'm not sure yet as its the 3rd NC IN 8 months this one has lasted 10 weeks. Will she contact again? Probably. Am I in a better a place to deal with her, I hope so... .  

We all have to do whatever we feel like doing, my friends and family tell me never to have contact with her, heck even my T on the final session I had with her stated on the way out of the door "please please don't have any further contact with this mentally unstable young lady".

Did I listen? Heck no I will always do what I want to do nobody can tell me different it's the way I was made. Never been a sheep and never will be.

My son when he was younger kept pretending to touch the oven and every time I would say no it will burn. Eventually after 20 times of him pretending I said go on then, yup he burnt his hand, not badly I might add just in case child services come calling :)

He never did it again so what I'm trying to say is if you get burned you get burned learn from it move on.

Only you can decide how bad your burn will be.

Hope all that made sense.

Take care TonyK I wish you well on your decision.

Of course I did. It was mentioned in my ''sister's'' reply (which was written by me, of course) to her original message. It's been already reported in detail in a previous post of this thread. You may refer to it in page 2, I think, or maybe 1.

Exactly, my dear petkn! Thank you so much!

the disorder always wins. The only way not to lose is not to engage. No contact no contact no contact. Otherwise more pain more pain more pain.

Could you refresh my memory, why is it that your in therapy Tony?

lol Good one, dear Suzn, thank you!  :)

OK, now allow me to explain.

It's been precisely therapy that's revealed that I still breed this unconscious hope that the potBPDexgf will return to me, in fact all regretted for what she's done. My ego seems to stubbornly persist on achieving this ''victory'', despite the fact that on the intellectual level I have fully grasped the detrimental effects of continuing my involvement with this woman.

The particular unconscious core generating this hope has been detected, but it has so far exhibited fierce resistance and it hasn't been feasible to break it yet. In my mind, this calls for radical, albeit controlled action.

I need to ''burn'' myself in the oven, as petkn so eloquently put it previously, in a - as much as possible - controlled manner, in order to bend or, even better, break this unconscious hope, once and for all.

That's the main tactical idea behind all this, the strategic target being always fixed: full detachment and moving on.   

I like to perceive this a bit like a chess game: sometimes one has to deliberately sacrifice a number of pawns, in order to advance one's strategy towards the final scope.   

TonyK

Glad you knew what I meant, however I must say I didn't allow my son to open the oven to burn himself the door was firmly shut and he touched the glass panel on the outside.  :)

My analogy was to keep the door shut don't open the door, opening the door may give you a third degree burn and nobody wants that.

Also to fellow readers please understand I allowed my son to do this under my supervision so I could soothe him straight away, just felt it was better this way as I couldn't possibly stand in the kitchen constantly supervising him.

Maybe not the best parenting skills but he has learned from his mistakes that's how we all learn.

I'm a single parent and my son has always kept me grounded but I will share this amazing quote from him about 5 months ago.

When I went to see the doctor she constantly kept telling me that I had dodged a bullet so 1 night knowing my son has the odd bullet lying around (fake by the way I live in the uk not allowed real ones) I asked if I could borrow it an old trick touch it when your mind is wandering. He asked me why so I told him what the doctor said. I then stated I will teach you everything I know so you don't make the same mistakes I have. His answer brought tears to my eyes. He said " but daddy you haven't made a mistake" I asked why. Because daddy you are the nicest and greatest man I know you will do anything for anybody and always be there when people need you most she has made the mistake not you... .  "

Not bad for 11 year old. He is obviously slightly biased too  :)

Take care TonyK I wish you well on your journey.

Chess is a game of integrity Tony. All the moves are visible to both players. And if indeed one is a master of the game, and he sees he can "win", he offers a handshake and a draw... and walks away. 

This isn't a game. I'm hoping you are considering possibilities for unforeseen events. Things happen Tony, things we have to live with later down the road.

It would be understandable if you still love her and want to work things out. Is this love Tony? This "plan" of yours?