BPDFamily.com

3 years ago i was having an affair. 

I am responsible for that.  I can go into the details if it helps, as they may affect the opinion of people reading this as to whether my wife has BPD at all or is just betrayed and acting as a betrayed person would.  But I will leave it as a simple statement of truth for the moment.

2 years and 7 months ago, she found out about the affair from the husband of the other woman.

Since then, I have been trying to make up for the affair. 

We have gone to 2 counselors together.  I have gone to 2 other counselors.

I believe my wife has BPD.  I think she has always had it but outbursts were largely directed at her ex-husband and toward the kids.  As long as she had an outlet, things were generally ok.

The affair has caused terrible things that happened to her as a child and young adult to resurface.

She became depressed, then abusive, and now i seem to perpetually be in the role of the bad guy with few brief flips back to that of the good guy.

In counseling she expressed intense fear of abandonment based in being molested as a child, literal abandonment by her biological father, rape, a death threat directed toward her by her mother, abandonment by her then ex-husband, and other issues.

At home, she continues to have fits of rage, largely over the affair... .  which is where I am foggy.  I understand why she would have anger toward me.  I do.  I understand why she might never forgive me and possibly even need to end our relationship as husband and wife.  But that is not what she has chosen to do.  Rather, she has become abusive, physically and verbally.  She yells, screams, and cries.  She punches, slaps, and pushes.  She pulls out her own hair, collapses into a heap on the floor and then punches her own chest and thighs.  She has regressed back into an eating disorder she had as a young adult, forcing herself to throw-up.  She has weight control issues and tells me I make her feel worthless.  Her self-esteem is based largely on me.  She has wished for death (not quite the same to me as threatening suicide).  In both cases of counseling, she stopped going when the counselor suggested she needed individual assistance from a counselor and now she tells me it is because I "lied" to th them (I don't think I did... .  though the fog of it all makes it hard for me to tell.


I could go on and on... .  but perhaps that is enough for the moment.  I need help.  Right now I am not in the home.  I am being refused time with my kids.  I know I want to save/fix the relationship but I can't live life as the devil nor can I allow my children to be witness to her abusive behavior any longer.

Hello thebadguy  *welcome*

I'm sorry you've going through all of this with your wife.   The behaviors you speak of sound familiar to stories we see here. We can't diagnose your wife but we can offer you some tools to work with to not make things worse.

How long have you been separated? Do you still have your counselor for support?

Hi thebadguy,

*welcome*

I wish your username was different. :)

I don't know that you're "the bad guy" - even though perhaps you're being made out to be.  

Two and a half years is a long time.  Affairs happen and it is often a coping mechanism in a troubled marriage... .  and your affair did what often happens, it brings the issues in the marriage to the surface.

I'm sorry that your wife is having such a hard time and isn't cooperating with the therapists. It's her own poor coping skills that are now the issue, and you seem dedicated to try and save your marriage.

You've definitely come to the right place to navigate these rough waters - there are so many others who have been in the same place as you and there is a vast amount of knowledge that can help you understand better your wife's behavior along with tools that perhaps can help you alleviate some of the conflict.

How old are the kiddos?

Welcome to our family.  

~DreamGirl

In mid-november, I had been sleeping downstairs.  She woke me up crying at about 5am telling me she couldn't do it anymore.  She needed me out.  She refused to provide any kind of written custody schedule so I refused to move out (this has been a recurring issue... .  she wants me out and for me to effectively give up the kids while continuing to pay the mortgage and bills).  That night, she was 'surprised' i came home.  She went into a fit of rage - screaming, cursing, spitting at me telling me to get out.  I was firm, calm, and rational.  She flipped it.  She decided she leave and take the kids.  For the moment, I let that happen.  She slapped me across the face somewhere in the middle of packing.  They all went to her parents' (kids are 2.5, 5, 10, and 13... .  13yo is from her previous marraige). 


The next morning, she returned to collect more things and to ask me again to leave.  She said 'if there is any hope for our marriage it needs to begin with you showing some compassion by allowing the kids to be at their home'.  Of course... .  I had been telling her and them the entire time that they are all welcome in our family home at all times (I was hoping for the same curtesy).  I eventually caved.

I stayed with her parents' from mid-November through mid-December.

Then, the flu hit our house.  I returned to the house to take care of my wife and the kids as they all got sick one by one.  I never got it.  I stayed through the holidays.  Things were good.  We were in the same bed again from Mid-december through the end of the year until a friend of mine died.  The funeral was 300 miles away on new year's eve.  I asked her to come.  Her response was that the kids had too much going on.  She felt I needed to go but was at best uneasy about me traveling by myself... .  fearful that it could be a chance to be unfaithful.  I agreed to be accountable and to have one of my other friends vouch for my whereabouts.  He did, but only after the fact.  It was not how she wanted it and even though I was in constant communication, she flipped back to me being the devil.

After she had another temper tantrum  New Year's eve evening (after I drove back from the funeral 3.5 hours away), I am back at her parents' house and have been refused visitation with the kids since.

I have only seen my counselor once since the separation began.  He suggested an ultimatum.  She participate in counseling OR Mediation OR I file for divorce.  She has refused the first two and I have not been willing to execute on the 3rd... .  so I have not followed his advice.  I am not ready/willing to.

I am reading how to stop making things worse.

I feel like I am already in control of my reactions.

Here are some examples of where I run into issues.  Any suggestions for changing my behavior would be appreciated:

- If I am sympathetic to her feelings of being mistreated, I am told "you don't feel that way".  She fills in what she thinks my emotions are.  "you hate me"  "you don't find me attractive" "you see no worth in me" (these are things she has said to me). 

My reaction to those statements are things like "I love you" "I think your are beautiful" "I see a lot of value/worth in you and who you are".  Or... .  as an alternative, I say "I am sorry you feel that way.  Those are not my feelings."

I am then told I am being defensive and combative.

It seems like, if I am sympathetic, empathetic, and patient... .  the belittleing, beratement, and projecting never end.  I can listen, sympathize and validate for HOURS... .  or at least try to... .  I have not expereinced a defusion of her upset feelings, only an eventual tantrum, dropped call, slammed door, or physical attack.

What am I doing wrong?

That's a good place to start!

We can only control our part and you're in the right mindset. It's hard to not feel defensive in this - and I think that you are really trying to grasp a better understanding in how these relationships work - and what will and will not work.  

I think that a good place to post these questions is on our Staying Board (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=6.0)

And another important must-read: Lessons (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206.0)

What does your own therapist say in regards to the physical part of the conflict - including the threats?

~DreamGirl

I know I can only control my part.  I just don't know how to deal with the rest.  I get told I am cold and uncaring when I respond in an even tone to explosions and name calling.  Nothing seems to work consistently.


Multiple therapists have recommended filing police reports when she gets physical.  I am afraid she will try to flip it and say I did something (I do not get physical).  I came close once to filing an order of protection and now she resents that.  I don't know if I am too ashamed or afraid of the possible outcome but I know my threat to call the police is empty.  I have even told her I would need to call an ambulance if she did not stop hurting herself.  I am making empty threats.  I never thought our relationship would be like this and I just know she will hold any real action like that against me and probably consider it the ultimate betrayal.

I guess I am hoping someone here can either say "dude... .  she doesn't have BPD" or "that all sounds consistent with BPD". 

This has all just been... .  the most difficult and painful experience of my life.  It only promises to get worse.

 

It is hard and I'm so sorry for where you're at.

I wish that we could diagnose it for you, but we can't - we're just not properly equipped. BPD is a spectrum disorder, so she could have traits but not necessarily be disordered, but needless to say there is definitely some dysfunction going on in your marriage/her.

What did your marriage counselor(s) think?

There are problems definitely apparent here, tbg, and I think it's outside what are average issues in a marriage. You are also experiencing what a lot of us do when facing the breakdown of a marriage. Fear... .  guilt... .  and confliction.

You say you want to salvage the relationship.

I respect that. Marriage is a commitment. What is it that makes you want to do that?

~DG

Marriage counselors... .  

#1 asked her to go on anti-depressant medication. 

#2 said she was BPD (after couples sessions and individual counseling)  he referred her to an experienced BPD counselor who was a woman.  Wife refused, said he betrayed her and even though he knew she had abandonment issues, he was trying to abandon her.  (he never used the phrase boarderline or BPD with her... .  only in conversations with me).

Why stay... .  

I know people say 'don't stay for the kids'.  I have 3 amazing kids.  They are absolutely amazing, beautiful, joyful.  I need to be in their lives.  I want them at the center of my life.

She has been the love of my life.  I met her in college 20 years ago.  I loved her the moment I saw her.  She left... .  I still loved her.  she got married, i loved her.  She got divorced, I moved to be with her.

I have lost some/much of that undying enthusiasm over 11 years of marriage.  I know the core is still there.  I think it can be revived.  I definitely owe her my best effort... .  the insanity of the last few years has made giving my best effort extremely difficult and frankly... .  I am confused as to whether I am giving the best I have to give.  The one and only book I have read though all this is 'emotional blackmail... .  when the people in your lives use fear obligation and guilt to manipulate you'.  I feel manipulated.   Sigh... .  I need some real clarity and truth.

Surviving infidelity is hard for couples. I can't imagine how hard it would be for someone who doesn't regulate emotions very well - which it sounds like your wife doesn't.

She's hurt, angry, and taking it out on everyone around her. That's hard on you and hard on the children.

tbg, it's so difficult to be in the spot where you are. You want it to work, but this current state you are in is not working. You can't be married, live at her parents house, and not see your kids.

What are her thoughts about divorce? Have you discussed it?

I know that there is a lot of emotion going on with this - it is 2 1/2 years later since your affair with little progress. Sometimes there needs to be an acceptance that she just doesn't have what it takes to move past it.

Do you think she can?

I know exactly what you're going thru and I know just how difficult this is. 

How are doing today?

Hi tbg, (I doubt you really are a bad guy, btw  :))

No one can tell you what the best thing is for your situation, just like no one here can confirm that she is BPD. Having said that, you mention that a therapist has diagnosed her. Is there some particular reason you don't think she is BPD? Or some reason you want to believe she is not BPD?

When your wife gets physical, you are both playing with fire. I respect your willingness to stay and work on your marriage, as challenging as it may be. But if you are worried that she might flip the physical violence and accuse you of being the perpetrator, listen to that concern and think through how to protect yourself. There are more ways to do that than just protection orders. Over on the Family Law boards, false allegations of domestic violence are common, and have devastated some members. The consequences can be long-term and expensive and deeply humiliating. One way to protect yourself is to document everything. Journal what happens -- it can make all the difference if you are falsely accused. Some members recommend recording the rages, although I did that with my N/BPDxh and it was terrifying. It sounds like you might feel more safe if you stick to a journal (also, every state treats recording w/o consent different, so you need to look into whether it's ok to do it where you live).

I'm glad you found these boards. I came here feeling as muddled and unclear as you, and with support from friends here, was able to get some real clarity and truth. My situation is somewhat different, but the core experience of coping with BPD is the same, and it can help so much to learn and share with others who have walked this path.

Some people have suggested I move back in.  I know doing that without 'earning' my way back in will immediately shift to a rage event.  At the same time, earning it seems so unclear.  She has been consistent in what she says she wants and also consistent in telling me I am not doing those things (many of which I am doing).  I am thinking me moving back in w/o consent will be the beginning of the end and so I am fearful of finally taking that step.


Aaah yes.  we have discussed.  She feels like no matter what she loses.  She stays with me and accepts me?  She feels rejected and pushed down all the time.  Her common phrase is that I 'push her face in poo' every day I don't fill her head with 'kind words'.  If she divorces me?  She has to share her kids with me.  Which... .  she has been working hard at alienating me from them for quite some time.  For HER the goldilocks position is me living somewhere else, handing her my pay check, and not separating her from the kids for any period of time.


I am not sure.  In some ways, this calls out why i am not 100% sure of the BPD diagnosis.  Is she manipulating me?  YES.  Is she doing it largely by using the kids and raging against me?  YES.  Is she abusive?  YES.  She fears abandonment and views me as all bad much of the time.  Have I met or exceeded what should be expected of someone who has done what I have done?  My own coping mechanisms drive me away from doing what she says she needs.  So I tend to think I have NOT done enough (but I push myself to do exactly what she says she need).  But then, the things she says that are clearly intended to manipulate me make me think that too... .  so what is reality?  When she is quiet... .  man... .  I just want things to stay quiet.  So I stay quiet.  I recognize my behavior triggers and feeds hers but I have really struggled with changing myself. 

And somewhere in what she says, I hear her saying she wants her white knight back (me).  And yet, I can not deliver that because I am... .  the bad guy now.

Obviously she see's herself as the victim here.  I don't know if she will ever perceive a change in status.


Ill-equipped.  I'm not ready for divorce.  I'm not ready to fix it.  I'm not ready to even stop the bleeding.  All I feel ready to do is minimize contact with her because that is the only thing that stops the nastiness.

When I say this... .  I mean I withdraw from the situation when she rages.  And when she is quiet, I only return slowly.  THAT is what I have strugged with changing about me.  And well... .  I guess my feelings toward her are broken enough right now that I have been struggling to give her the kind words she desires.

From this link on our Undecided Board: https://bpdfamily.com/deciding_guide/00.htm

Not making a decision is a decision in and of itself. And the longer you wait, often, the worse it becomes.

Why should I chose?

A fire breaks out in your home. You stand before the flames.

“Should I get the fire extinguisher and fight it? Should I grab my photo album and run?”

You stand there - you can't decide. Not making a decision is a decision in and of itself.

OK. It's a very significant decision ~ Do I try to work with my SO and try to rebuild the relationship? Do I move on and make a new life for myself?

The longer you wait - often - the worse it gets. Why? Because most likely your relationship is eroding - and who knows what that may bring. And most likely your psyche is eroding - you feel broken, hurt, trapped.

This guide is designed to help you sort it out. This may take time - and you don't want to rushed - and don't want to prolong it. It's wise to set a time table for yourself.

This isn't easy. Many of us are suffering from some level of depression that arises from long term relationship stress. This is not the blues (that's more of an anxiety), but the emotional weight that affects our ability to see things and think clearly. A person with depression tend to see things worse than they really are.

Our goal is to provide you with the tools and knowledge to begin to make positive changes in your life.  


I feel like you need to get in the right head space. Any chance to talk to a therapist? Perhaps an attorney - or two - just to see where you are at?

No concrete decisions - just some information to help in making a decision.

Your wife wants you to completely sacrifice just about everything (living in your home, your money, your parenting, your privacy) and still, is really angry with you. I don't know that you can keep trying to help her feel better... .  you're running out of things to give her.  

I'm not telling you to leave your wife; I'm not telling you stay - only you can do that. I think that making any decision includes weighing all your options. It also means making sure that you are balanced (both logically and emotionally) when making those decisions - so you are able to move forward.

Time lines really, really helped me in my own situation.

I also encourage to explore the boards (not just this one). The Staying Board has really, really good communication tools, skills on establishing boundaries, and ways to defuse the conflict.

We're all here for you.  

Can you forgive yourself for the affair?

It seems like you may need to heal that for yourself first, or separately, so that you can make a clear decision about what's best for you.

I trend toward feeling guilt, even when I don't do something wrong. It seems to be a common trait among people here. As a general rule, nons feel a lot of fear, obligation, and guilt. About everything! Even things not in our control. In your case, you feel guilty about something you did have control over, and it seems like you're allowing that to justify whether or not your wife is accurately diagnosed BPD. Can you see how those things are actually separate? You did something real, AND your wife is BPD. I am guessing you could work with a therapist to discover that many BPD traits and behaviors were there before the affair, and have since escalated and become untenable.

But for what it's worth, there are many people here who have been accused of all kinds of things. The false allegations are breathtaking. And the behavior you describe is similar to the behavior others describe. Perhaps your task is to forgive yourself for the affair so you can see clearly that you are not responsible for her behavior, nor do you deserve to be treated like this.

I am also wondering if you think that you deserve to be punished for having an affair? That's something else a therapist can help you with. Maybe a similar pattern occurred in your family of origin? My therapist used to tell me that I preferred the feeling of being in control about the bad things because the alternative -- having no control -- was too frightening. I thought it was a lot of hooey when she first said that, but I've come to see how true it is.

Forgive yourself for the affair.

My family of origin had some similar features but none of the BPD (dad had affairs).  My mom however was a saint and managed to keep me oblivious to it through to the day she died. 

The family of origin discussion happened with both of us with the last therapist we saw together.  That was a good chunk of his approach.  Honestly, it all lined up nicely out of just that discussion.  I come from a rural family who doesn't talk.  She comes from a city family that screamed a lot and she had all manner of trauma as a kid and young adult.  Both fathers' had affairs.  Moms' handled them very differently.  Her parents stayed together, but based largely on her mother holding her hostage with a knife and threatening her adopted dad that if he left, she would die.  My mom quietly asked my dad to leave.  He did.  They didn't divorce initially.  Instead, they reconciled about 5 years later and then finally divorced about 10 years after that (total of 15 years since the initial 'get out' and by that time I was 26).

Can I forgive myself for the affair.  That is a complicated answer.  I think I initially felt guilty for it, was remorseful, beat myself up, but then as time passed and her behavior escalated more and more frequently,  I think the guilt subsided and turned into resentment.  I believe she feels I need to be punished and I have definitely facilitated that to a large extent in my efforts to get past it with her.  That seems to be something she does with me and with her oldest daughter in particular. 

I watch the daughter react to being berated and her reaction is a lot like mine.  Anger wrapped in remorse.  Does that make sense?  Anger for being treated like that by someone we love.  Remorse more for being punished than for the offense.  In a 13 y/o, it is not very believable.  But what my BPDso wants, is to see or hear emotional pain in they eyes or voice of the person who 'wronged' her.  I realie I am assigning motives.  That is what I perceive.  What does the 13 year old get punished like that for?  One major recurring theme is having a relationship with her father (i am not father in this case).

That's a pretty fascinating family of origin match-up! One of the best moments I had in therapy was when my T said I was changing my family script. It's hard to see how we hold ourselves hostage. So much easier to focus on our abusers.

So... .  knowing what you know about the parallels in your FOOs, does that make you think differently about your options?

I have seen 4 therapists.  I still have one I go back to on occasion.  I saw a lawyer once.  He recommended a restraining order.  I didn't file it.  That turned into a fiasco.  but yes... .  i need legal advice from a legitimate resource.


Yes.  That is how it feels.  Problem is, I have failed (or feel like I have failed) at giving her what she has asked for.  I seem to regularly blame her for this (at least in my own head if not out loud).  She is abusive.  She wants kind words.  I have been having quite a bit of difficulty producing kind words for the woman who is abusive.  Maybe it is a circle.  We occasionally break out of it a little but I fear I am damaged now and can't do what she ultimately wants.


Timelines are great for people willing to do what must be done at the deadline.  For as long as I feel like it is my fault that we haven't gotten out of the hole, I may very well not feel like I should pull the trigger so to speak.

You can also look at it like making a plan with contingencies. One of the things that happens in BPD r/s is that you get sucked into chaotic, whirling vortices that make it hard to function. You have options. For example, you can move back. You can stay where you are and stay married. You can stay where you are and get divorced. You can move elsewhere and get divorced. You can get an attorney and make a plan in case xyz happens. Every one of those has a plan that goes with it, and contingencies. If you set up a timeline that only makes you feel weak, like you failed at yet something else, then create contingencies that allow you to branch.

"If my ex is still doing xyz behavior by Month Year, I will try x."

"If my youngest child does not improve xyz behavior, I will seek therapy for him. If my ex does not support my decision, I will try xyz."

Something like that.

I am sure I have made it clear somewhere else in this thread, but I will say it again.  I am currently out of the house at my BPDso's request (very loud, very hysterical, very frightening request) staying at her parents' house. 

I have been calling to speak with the kids every night that I don't see them.  She did finally let me come over to see them (and her) night before last. 

Last night, I called, the oldest answered.  I spoke to her.  Middle child had fallen asleep.  Littlest (2 1/2) said he didn't want to talk on the phone.  Ok.  So I said good bye to the oldest and that was it.  I didn't speak to or ask to speak with my wife.

A couple hours later I got a text asking what I had done that day that would be considered work on our relationship.

I replied saying I have been reading about and working on ways to change how I communicate so I can stop making things worse, as I think that is the place to start.

She replied (another hour later) saying it does not make things better to just ignore her either.  This message was late enough that I didn't see it until this morning.  At which time I tried to use S.E.T.  I think I may have left off the "T" part.

My reply was that I would be more attentive.  Being ignored doesn't feel good.  and I said i was sorry.  There has been no response.  Would there have been a more complete message than the one I gave?

This is a long way and a lot of detail on a tiny exchange to get to an issue I have been struggling with. 

I am presently gun-shy.  I have a lot of trouble engaging unless she gives me some signal that our conversation isn't going to turn into a yelling, name calling, blameing recycled rant. 

I can have empty or business conversations with her easily but she calls this out and gets upset.  (definition of 'empty' or 'business' conversations - empty: "i can't believe they are putting up a new strip mall there.  This area is so over-developed."  business: "I paid that bill... .  or... .  I see there are these kids' events on these days... .  can I help make things easier for you with those?... .  or... .  i was going to go get what I need to finish this project.  Do you need anything?  Are there things higher on your priority list than that project?"

So... .  how do *I* engage first w/o triggering her?  I am frankly afraid to start a conversation about anything without first knowing she is not in a negative space in her own head... .  which she is quite often lately.

What are safe topics that are meaningful?  As a man... .  I have to say, talking on the phone for enjoyment is not really in my repertoire and since comfortable silence does not exist in our relationship at this point... .  what do I do?

So the key in this is that it's not about trying to control yourself in order to control her. :)

It's where the whole "Walking on Eggshells" analogy comes from - "If I tip-toe around her, she'll not freak out".  It's no way to live and it's OK if she freaks out - it's about not escalating the situation - and there's tools in setting limits so that you can leave/take a time out if she does in fact freak out.

I think that you're doing the right thing. By using SET, you're stopping the cycle of conflict, not necessarily fixing all the problems in your marriage.

For what it's worth, I think what your'e doing is starting to work.  

For a pwBPD, they're feelings become they're facts. So when she feels you are ignoring her = you are ignoring her.

I think you did well in your reply - no answer is better then the one that tells you that you're a heartless jerk, right? You validated her rather then invalidating her by saying "I don't ignore you" and then point all the times you didn't. A pwBPD tends to live in the feeling of the moment right now, so she might have felt that you ignored her when you called and didn't talk to her and just the kiddos.  :)id you ignore her?  Not really... .  but you're sorry that she felt that way, you don't like to be ignored either.

I think that it's also learning to detach from outcomes. If you want to talk to your wife when you call, that's OK.  If she's not in the mood or wants to pick a fight? Then you can deal with that - or maybe discuss (while she's calm) that you want to perhaps try friendly chat before you go to bed, that way you both don't have to think about a loaded discussion and not sleep because of it.

This initial process might have you doing a lot of validating (rather then defending) simply to just stop the constant arguing. We argue because we want to be heard - and we want to be right. That's what validation is about - saying "you have every right to feel the way you do".

Because she does in fact have every right to her feelings - even when it doesn't always make a whole lot of sense to us.

In all this spare time of yours, do you have access to a library or book store? You might see if you can find a copy of:

Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder (https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/essential-family-guide-borderline-personality-disorder)

[It's Kreger's follow up book to Stop Walking on Eggshells - and much better.]

I know this is hard, tbg, and you do seem better today. Any chance that you can get in to see your therapist? It's OK to go against his advice when he's telling you that you should make an ultimatum. He won't be disappointed in you and will support you wherever you're at in whatever direction you want to go. Part of this is getting into a healthy state of mind to make good, balanced decisions. No one better then a skilled professional to help guide you in that. :)

When I was muddling thru marriage counseling, I flip-flopped about 27 times on whether or not I was comitted to making it work. I had an individual counselor as well who was there to help me in my own mental health. I even saw my GP to make sure my physical health was OK as well. To me, it was like surgery - having a team of Dr's attending to each different need.

You don't have to be alone in this. I promise.

 

~DreamGirl

I get the response that I am the heartless jerk often enough including this evening.

This time because I did not announce loudly enough that a phone call was my sister.  The incident by itself sounds crazy.  it is the context of the last 3 years that makes it less crazy.  i am struggling with that.  I don't know if that is too much for her to ask for or within reason.  It is what she says she needs so I guess I need to decide whether I am willing and able to provide that level of 'transparency' or not. 

I feel a bit like a yo-yo.

I did her a favor by taking off work this afternoon to either care for a sick kid or take four 5 y/o's on a field trip.  It wasn't decided until I got there.  When I got there, it was evident she wanted me to go on the field trip and I did.  I had no awareness of the need until 7am today and I still made it happen.  When it was done, i said thank you and I appreciated being asked.  Positive reinforcement for doing her a favor.  (I never said i was doing her a favor)

She flips it and says I wasn't doing her any favors.  I was being selfish.  And not only does she say I was not doing her any favors but I wasn't even doing it for the 5 year old.  She tells me I was doing it for me so I could look like a good dad.

I let that all roll off me in the moment.  I was supportive and empathetic to the best of my ability.  I can't say it went all that well.  she tells me it seems quite forced.  And it is but I stuck to it.

Somewhere between being screamed at, having my stuff thrown out of the house into the snow and being told to leave my wife and kids and go to my in-laws' house on new year's eve after returning from a funeral 300 miles away and being refused access to my kids for the following week, I am supposed to give her kind words, be beyond transparent, and make her feel chosen and I am supposed to figure out the difference between giving her space (she asked for me to sleep elsewhere) and ignoring her. 

But not only do I have to be transparent but I have to volunteer all of the desired information without being asked questions.  Because if I am answering questions, I may be lying but if I say it without being asked, I am telling the truth (her words).  She won't ask who called.  She won't ask what the conversation was about.  And I am supposed to announce it repeatedly in case she didn't hear it the first time.

I am frustrated and back back my in-laws.

As a parting shot, the 5 year old I took on the field trip says "mom hates you dad" when i am trying to give him a hug to leave.

I am mostly just ranting.   Someone can tell me to suck it up now.

Feeling a bit bonkers this evening.    I have been out and then in and now out of the house at the request of my wife for the last nearly two months.  4 weeks out, 2+ weeks in, and now 11 days out again.

The reason given is that I make her feel worthless.

This takes me away from my kids (and my wife) and my home.

I don't think she is going to file for divorce anytime soon.  She probably won't period, if I stay out of the house.  This is working wonderfully for her.  It does not work for me for many reasons that would probably be obvious to anyone with kids.

I am contemplating going back to stay.

I think that could trigger a lot of things.  Rage.  Physical attack.  Most likely is her leaving and taking the kids.  Effectively swapping places.  If she has done any 'prep work'.  She could immediately file for divorce.

That is my biggest fear right now.  Now so much getting divorced but having the 'status quo' be her with the kids and me not. 

I think my counselor would tell me to move back in.  I am trying to figure out if I am under/over thinking this.  Help?

Apparently cant type... .  that should say "not so much getting divorced but having the 'status quo' be:

her with the kids.

me without."

Maybe I missed something in the prior messages, but I wanted to respond but I need to go give my own almost-5-year old a bath - but your therapist would tell you to move back IN?   What you are going through sounds gut wrenching.  I am so sorry to read about the contact (and lack thereof) you have with your kids right now... .  and of course you know that a 5 year old will say things without thought to what it really means to an adult... .   

If you are living with her parents, they are obviously supportive of you - do they know or understand what is going on with your wife?  (again I apologize if you have addressed this and I didn't get that far).  Do you have other support - friends?  your family? 

I know how badly you need to be with your kids.  I wish I had better advise on how to handle things - but honestly it sounds like you ARE doing the best you can possibly do in this situation.  I hope you can find peace, at least tonight, to be able to relax and give yourself a break... .     

I will read your background in the morning.  I wish you well... .  

who's ready for the longest background post ever?

The most critical background... .  well there is a lot and I know I have not covered all of it in any thread here.

The short version:

What I have done wrong:

3 years ago I had an affair.  She found out 2yrs 8 mos ago.

I did this.  It was an awful thing to do. 

I would understand if she needed to divorce me over it.  She has not wanted to do that.

I believe she had BPD before the affair. 

At the beginning of our marriage, she mostly painted her ex-husband and his new wife as the bad guys.

It began with saying that her then 4yo daughter from that marriage was being sexually assaulted by his new wife's 5yo girl.  Did it happen?  I don't know.  What I do know, is that before the new wife, he had not been enforcing his visitation b/c of how the relationship with my wife and his daughter had been going.  His new wife 'encouraged' him to keep her overnight and 'take' what was rightly his per the parenting plan.  The two of them have had a high conflict relationship for as long as I have known about it.  We are now 11+ years removed and their relationship is still high conflict. 

All the while, her anger/hurt would periodically be pointed at me for doing nothing of consequence, but I am a good fisherman.  Any time the witch came out, I was exactly who she was looking for.

Things got worse and worse as years passed.  She started taking it out on her daughter too.  We had kids.  She would get angry with the oldest (the child from her first marriage).  I would protect ours.  One night, her ex calls and says she needs to stop abusing their daughter.  Gave examples of things she had told him.  They sounded plausible to me.  She denied.

I had the affair.  She found out.  She was righteously angry with me but said she wanted to work it out.  We started in counseling.  My wife set it up.

She got angry every time we went.  I started dreading the car rides there.

After 5-6 times, the counselor suggests she go on anti-depressants.  She interpreted this as the counselor telling her SHE had done something wrong.  She exploded in the session and ran out.  That was the end of that counselor (my wife would not go back).  I went a few more times by myself, then stopped b/c my wife "didn't want me telling lies to another woman" (the counselor).

Time passes, she doesn't get less angry she gets more angry.  She starts withholding children.  Being verbally abusive.  Name calling.  Breaking things.  Hurting herself.  Left bruises on her chest and thighs on multiple occasions.  Ripped out chunks of her own hair.   Somewhere in here, she throws a candle jar into the wall, destroys a metal trash can.

She had been yelling and screaming in front of the kids but she decided to bring the conflict out in the open after about 5 months.  She throws our wedding portrait out a 2nd story window in front of the kids.  They run out in the snow to retrieve it.  My oldest hides it in her room.  She breaks pictures in frames, rips apart kids stuffed animals I had given her that she had since given to the kids, rips apart our marriage certificate and ‘frames’ a picture of the other woman that she had printed from the internet and waits for me to come home, then burns it in our kitchen.

I tell her I am going to start seeing a counselor again.  I start looking, find a woman who is qualified.  She flips.  Doesn’t want me seeing a female counselor.  I find a man.  He won’t see couples.  This is fine by me but my wife doesn’t want me seeing someone and “twisting him with my side of the story”.   I see him once, about 45 minutes in after describing what I did and what has happened in our marriage, he suggests I read ‘walking on eggshells’ and start learning about BPD.  I find another counselor who WILL see both of us.  We both go.  After a few sessions, he suggests we work with him individually.  He see’s her a couple times, me a couple times.  We talk about our backgrounds and goals.  We come back together.  He tells me she has a strong fear of abandonment that predates me.  She agrees.   In an individual session with me, he tells me she has BPD and he wants to refer her to a woman counselor who specializes in it.  He tells me not to mention BPD to her or why he was going to refer her, but he wanted me to know so I can support the suggestion.  He suggests the new counselor to her.  She explodes.  She refuses to see him again.  She refuses to go to any counselor.  Says he knew she feared abandonment and then abandoned her.  I keep going.  He starts pointing me to books on BPD. 

She continues having breakdowns.  Ripping out hair, hitting herself.  I tell her she would benefit from professional help.  She gets up off the floor and slaps me on the chest and shoving me across the room until I am up against the wall.

Things get worse.  Screaming, yelling, crying most nights.  Only getting 3-4 hours of sleep b/c she is ranting and raging most nights.  She sleeps in while I get up and take the school age kids to school and go to work.  Every holiday is a disaster as if every normal day were not bad enough.  Nothing I do helps.

One day, about a year and 4 months after she found out, she truly flips.  Breaks dishes, breaks pictures and smashes the broken glass on the floor in her bare feet.  She tosses a wooden train table…scares the life out of the littlest of the kids (as if all of this so far hasn’t).  She hits me.  Slaps me.  Pushes me.  Spits in my face.  Chases me around the house spitting on me and at me.   Counselor suggests I see a lawyer and file a restraining order. 

I see the lawyer.  He agrees, points me to the paperwork.  I go to the court house.  I call her.  I tell her what I am doing.  I tell her I do not want to do that but the physical violence and screaming has to stop.  In the face of such a thing, she agrees.  Has no real choice.  She resents the notion of a restraining order, still holds it against me that I wanted to do it and ‘was willing to’.  She insists that I stop seeing the counselor who suggested I get a restraining order.  Says he is poisoning me against her.  But she is level for a while.  Things are a little better for a few months.  Then they start getting worse again.  In anger, she hits me with a 40 pound backpack.  Leaves bruises on my ribs. 

Things have all blurred together so much.  At one point, when we were still seeing the last counselor, I would wake up fearful that she was going to kill me in my sleep.  This made her mad.

This past summer, she started punching and slapping me.  I picked up the phone to call 911, she slapped it out of my hand and continued punching me.  Then, collapsed on the floor and started clawing at her thighs and punching her chest and thighs, then hitting her head on the floor.  The next day, she has scabs from the clawing, bruises all over her thighs, chest and forehead.  I have bruises on my chest from where she punched me.   On a later date, this past summer, she locked me in the basement before work (I work…she doesn’t).  Granted…there is a sliding glass door in the basement.  Dress shoes, rain, mud.  I refused to go that way.  She started shoving photos she printed of the other woman under the door.  Copies of the email her husband sent her (that’s how she found out…her husband…which, I don’t blame him for that. )  Remember…this is more than 2 years after she found out.  I have a key to the door.  There is a chain on it.  I unlock the door, but she has chained it.  She pushes a knife through the opening.  I jump back initially, thinking she was trying to stab me but she says “take it!  Push it into my chest!”  I say no.  She says “TAKE IT!”  it is for effect….very effective.  Scared the life out of me.

I have no doubt I am leaving out a LOT.  The children are used to the rages, the cursing, and instability.  They are not surprised to see her throwing my clothes out the window or the front door.  That has happened at least half a dozen times.  Remove my clothes from the closet, throw them on the floor in the basement.  Throw them outside.  Move them back.  Throw them out again.  I won’t say they expect it, but they are not surprised when it happens.  In all of these, I am calm until she starts physically attacking me.  Then I have to get away from it.  I do get upset when she brings my mom into the conversation.  But I recognize she will say anything to hurt me. 

In calm moments, she asks for:

-   Kind words

-   To be chosen

-   To be taken out on dates.

In the beginning…the 1st year after the affair…I was happy to do these things.  I just needed to feel physically secure and not be yelled at.  That was too much.

And …well now I have spent my evening writing this down.  I know I am leaving stuff out.  Leaving out how I trigger her, no doubt.  Leaving out some of the things she has done, for sure.  Leaving out some of the stuff that screams BPD!  But…maybe it is screaming something else too.

What I know now, is that I have made a mistake (not just the affair…letting her remove me from the house, 2.5 years after she found out about the affair. 

Oh my goodness.

This is REALLY bad.  SERIOUS.  I would check the laws where you live.

You need to record (video too if possible) this stuff!  This is dangerous, she could snap and hurt you.  Also, she could easily blame you for all this self harm. 

This is not healthy for your kids.  I would document everything possible - then get with your L and see if you can remove HER from the house and have her stay with her parents.

This doesn't mean the relationship has to be over - but if you don't set boundaries at this point your relationship has very little hope of getting better any other way. (Notice she got it together for a bit after threatening the RO - shows she can control herself.  She just thinks you will do nothing at this point and she can run all over you.)

The bottom line is - you have the power to stop this cycle the way it is.  Your kids need you to, even if you don't do it for yourself.

I would move back in (have another room you can sleep in/put lock on door?) - record all her craziness and already be ready to go file the RO.

She knows if anyone else gets wind of this that she looks way out there.  That is one reason she doesn't want you getting any validation from counselors.

Wow... .    thebadguy I am so so sorry for what you have been through and what you are still going through... .   

That is so unbelievably sad.  And truly kills me for your children.  I agree with what Lady31 said about finding out about having her removed from the house.  She is so abusive - those kids need it to stop.  YOU need it to stop. 

Listen, no one is perfect.  Yes you had an affair.  You are not perfect but you sound like a saint at this point for staying in this r/s... .    Forgive yourself for the affair.  She is beating you up plenty, physically and emotionally.  Don't do it to yourself also. 

Are her parents aware of all of this behavior?  they would have to be right?  If possible, can you enlist their help to get her away from those kids so that you can provide them with a stable home environment?  You can still work on your r/s if that's what you want, but honestly I think you need to do something to get your kids out of there... .    I know how terrible that sounds - trust me - I'm a mom!  But ugh.  And it's because of my own little girl that it breaks my heart what yours are going through... .   

This has been a long road for you - and you will clearly have a long road ahead but you can do this.  You are obviously very strong.  Stay strong and show your kids and yourself what is inside you... .  

It feels a lot less simple than what you are saying.  Don't get me wrong.  I know what you are saying is not simple.  Nothing is simple, of course.  I am pulled in two directions and they seem in conflict with eachother.  How can setting those boundaries possibly be on the same path as saving the relationship or making up for the affair?  It feels a bit like I would be blackmailing her with the children. 

All that aside, how do I keep her from taking the kids if she decides she needs to leave?

No... .  her parents don't know.  I do have some recordings, pictures and stuff she has broken (not of her self-harm mind you).  I have debated telling them.  they know what I did.  They support us trying to get back together.  They don't know what she has done and given their family history, I am a little concerned for what would happen if I shared the fact that I have evidence.

And I guess if I really think through it, I am afraid there would be a major backlash to enforcing boundaries and trying to limit her behavior.  Like getting falsely accused of stuff so she can keep me away from the kids.

Well I can totally relate to the concerns/fears you have about enforcing boundaries because it might cause her to falsely accuse you of things and take your kids.

I work with my ex - in close proximity.  I fear that if I ever didn't play by his rules, he would make my life hell.  Of course it is hell there half the time - and that's when he IS accusing me of false things all the time. 

Today, I texted him a link to some article that I knew would interest him.  He reacted by saying that the person in the article was killed by some group of people  I wrote back and said "you don't know that for sure" - and I pointed that out because the actual article said they didn't know who had done it.  After ignoring me for the next hour - he then responded by sending 6 long texts about all the issue at hand, how I might as well have texted him and said what an idiot he is, that I pretty much called him a moron and that this is a prime example of how combative I am.  What ?

I'm combative.  I wasn't even arguing - I sought out an article online and texted to him because I thought he would LIKE it.  And my comment that he didn't know what happened for sure was simply fact from the article - NOT an argument. 

I haven't heard from him since.

I think he's completely lost his mind at this point... .  

I feel like a drama king.

Had a long fight today.  Went to watch the littlest while the middlest had swimming lessons.  Stayed after to try to start having a conversation.  it feels a bit like having a pocket full of keys trying to unlock a door you think one of them fits.  That one?  no.  This one?  No.  Try another.  No.

Things weren't improving per se, but they weren't degrading.  Then her ex husband called.  Their daughter (my stepdaugther) is with him this weekend.  They apparently had a 'discipline' issue.  I didn't hear the whole thing but it ammounts to... .  she is using instagram and is seeing a boy who is himself... .  not stable right now.  They had broken up and are apparently back together.  It's a long ridiculous early teen boy/girl relationship.  The jist is this... .  the daughter gets bad grades and it seems to correlate to her involvement with him and with social media (my wife tries incredibly hard to control the peer relationships of my stepdaughter... .  she rebels).  My wife blames me for her daughter being willing to lie to her mother and for putting herself in a relationship with a boy who is emotionally unstable (the incident she points to for this are 1. he put his fist through a sliding glass door when his parents took his phone because he was texting the daughter too much and failing school.  and 2. he went Fatal Attraction on her when she broke it off.  I can not quite fathom how she can SEE that is unhealthy but not recognize her own behaviors).  Now they are back together and she blames me.  My wife's 'tools' that she uses to encourage her daughter to stop the relationship are degrading her, degrading the boy, embarrassing her, and poking, poking poking.

She escalated.  She spit on me... .  started following me spitting on me.  I took out my phone to record.  She stopped.  I put the phone away, she escalated again.  I took the phone back out.

She feels she has no choices.  She either:

1. stays married to me and I make her feel like poop by not "choosing her".  (the worst I do is defend myself or disengage)

2.  She divorces me and loses her kids for some percent of the time (a further fear of hers is that if/when we divorce, I will connect with some woman like the one I had an affair with and let her be in my kids lives as a step parent).

I tell her she has another choice.  She can try to work with me to improve the relationship.  She says she has done all the work she is going to do and it is up to me to fix it.  I tell her it can't work that way.  I can't fix it while she is raging at me.  I don't say this part... .  but the reason it can't work like that is that she fully believes everything I say/do is a lie or done for selfish motives... .  thus... .  no matter what I do, she believes I am not doing anything to repair the damage.  Help.  Please.

When I was at a similar point with my ex, people would tell me I was playing with fire. Your choices get so awful, and the tinder box of emotions start to feel scary. I think you are at that point. You become accustomed to the abuse and you are no longer aware how extreme your life has become. I am concerned that you are going to become one of the people here on these boards who have been falsely accused of domestic violence, or sexual molestation.

From out here, that's where it looks like your situation is headed. Some stories here feel worse than others. Yours makes my hairs stand up on end.

So what can you do? Get as much information as you can. Some of what you have posted about your worries and concerns tell me you haven't done your homework as thoroughly as you can. Do you have an L? Ask people on the family law board what to expect, how to find a lawyer who understands BPD, how to prepare, and start making a plan. It doesn't mean you have to follow through -- maybe your wife will get better with intensive therapy, I don't know. But at the very least, get a plan so you can feel less despairing. When things are this stressful, we often go to the dark places and freak ourselves out. You're just spinning wheels when you do that.

I hope the bluntness isn't too off-putting.

I am perfectly fine with blunt. 

Financially... .  I will have to get my dad's help to get a lawyer to do anything but do the empty 'free' consultation.  I don't want to do that, but I will.  I make excellent money but my wife has full control of the finances... .  she would know I paid a lawyer.

I am in a weak position in terms of my kids legally because of me leaving the house.  And yes, i can return.  I am weary of that because of the fire you and I both know I am playing with.  But I don't think there is another option if I want to have my kids at least half the time.

And then there is the side of me that doesn't want to do anything that I know she will view as 'against' the relationship... .  which... .  seeing a lawyer... .  to her... .  against the relationship.  Posting on a message board... .  against the relationship.  Seeing a counselor who suggests a restraining order... .  against the relationship.

I agree - this situation makes my hair stand on end too!

You are not stuck with no options, you just don't like the ones you have.  You have to choose the safety of those kids and yourself.  This woman is way out there - I agree with the comment as well that you are accustomed to the abuse.  This is BAD.

You taking it and crawling around in the dirt while she spits on you will make her spit on you more - not make her stop.  She has no respect for you and thinks you don't have what it takes to pull the trigger.  You allowing her to treat you this way makes her respect you even less, that is why she is not motivated to change anything.  This is not how you "earn" someone's forgiveness or repair the relationship.

REMEMBER - she sure changed her tune real quick when you were about to file an RO.  What she is pulling now is smoke and mirrors, trying to control your mind so much to keep you from putting up boundaries.  YOU CAN FORCE HER TO STOP - you are choosing this.

I would see an L - borrow the money from your dad like you said.

The point of getting her OUT and not taking the kids will most likely require an RO.  I am not sure, but I would guess. An L will tell you what all to document and how to prepare. 

I may be wrong - but prob go something like this:

Start getting things together/document stuff/make plan with L.

Move back into the house.  (She CAN'T physically stop you from this - but need to be prepared to file RO immediately before she does anything.  If she is out of control - bring people WITH YOU. Then let her act like a nut in front of them.)  L will tell you if this is a smart idea, or what order to do this in - but somehow get you back in the house.  Worse case - look at options to rent a place to move kids to and get a RO.  ?  Do whatever it takes.

The judge may even order her to some sort of treatment in order to see the kids if the documentation/evidence is bad enough.

I would think you have 0 chance of things getting better with your current approach.

And yes, getting her out of the house, getting RO if needed, putting up boundaries that stop the toxic craziness & abuse can STILL be part of a plan that is geared to working the marriage out as that is obviously still what you want.

You won't get it like this.  At the VERY least, there has to be a boundary that simply does not allow this type of abusive behavior for your own sanity and protection.  (I still think she needs to be away from the kids though!)  In this scenario, you simply do not go around her or respond to anything abusive.  If she sends abusive messages, don't respond.  If she calls and gets abusive, let her know the boundary and you would love to talk to her when she can calm down and treat you with respect and HANG UP.  If she gives you problems when you come by to pick up the kids - BRING A FRIEND when you pick them up (or her parents if she tries to hide this behaviour from them.)  If you are spending time together and she starts in get up and leave, don't get sucked into her threats.  Leave her sitting there on the floor pulling her hair out or call an ambulance.

Also, haven't the kids seen all that has gone down and mom act psycho and dad stay calm?  If she DID make false allegations against you, I think that would help BUT I would still want a lot of proof.

And how can she stop you from seeing the kids?  There is no RO on you. Bring someone with you and pick them up!  Of course, she will then see she is losing the power and can't control you and could resort at that point to making false allegations against you so you have no power or control yet again.  Which leads me back to... .  

You will MORE likely than not need to get an L and aggressively put this to a halt. 

My prayer is for you to have the strength and courage to stand up against this abusive tyrannt - that is who she is right now.

Have you consulted with an L in your state about your situation? I apologize -- I've been following so many stories here I sometimes get the details mixed up!

I had not found this site when I filed for divorce, but I did get a lot of advice from people around me, and for the most part, it was incorrect, including quasi professionals who were well-intentioned but just plain wrong (domestic violence advocates, my therapist, lawyer friends in other states). Nothing wrong with that -- family law is complex. I'm just saying if you haven't talked to a lawyer in your state, you may discover that leaving your home is not going to weaken you legally. There are a thousand things that weaken a case legally, and the key is to minimize them. If you have a good plan and are smart about how you prepare to leave, your wife will be in the weaker position.

I may be wrong, but I think I understand your mentality -- you live with an abuser who scares the crap out of you, and you believe what she says. The antidote to that is to counter that voice with someone who knows how things really work, and someone who is willing to really work for you. My ex is a trial attorney and he told me for years that no judge would give me custody of our child, no one would believe us, he would destroy me in court, blah blah blah, I would live in section 8 housing and on and on. None of that has happened. He said he would petition for full custody of S11 and instead he takes less than the time he is currently offered through a temporary custody order. People with BPD say a lot of things when they feel seriously threatened and abandoned. They know how to push our fear buttons.

For most of us, we know very little about how family courts and family law work, so it's easy for that fear to set on fire in our minds. There is nothing more important at a time like this than paying for expert advice to counter the extreme fear and despair we experience. Beg borrow or steal money to retain a lawyer. For me, it was 5 grand. I had to borrow it from my dad for similar reasons. If you can't get it from him, open a new credit card in your name only and use that.

When I left, I had only had a consultation with my lawyer. I was getting ready to retain her, and getting ready to move out of the house while my husband was away at a conference. I had been planning my exit for a year based on the advice she gave me at my first consultation. (Create a separate account, get a storage locker, photocopy key documents, have a safety plan, record everything, etc.). One of my biggest concerns was that I might have to flee the house for my safety and leave my son behind. I was worried that my ex could claim I had abandoned S11 and use that against me. My lawyer said over and over, "Safety first. Then you call me."

Read Matt's story on the family law boards. Or ForeverDad's. There are others, too, who waited too long.

You can do this -- it won't be easy, and it will suck for a while, but eventually there will be periods where your head clears and you feel better, and then at some point you realize, hey, I am doing good! You're a good dad and a good person, and you can do this.

My opinion only, but I would tackle the issue of not seeing your children first, seeing that  they're being taken care of someone not mentally fit to be a mother. I would also suggest changing your name on this board.

Building on Randi's good point -- there are laws preventing parents from obstructing relationships between kids and their parents. One of the reasons family law is so aggravating and complex and exasperating is because people like your wife pull emotional blackmail stunts like the one you're experiencing. Then we need laws to help us make sure these kinds of things don't happen. She is preventing you from seeing the kids not because of your relationship with them, but cause of her grief and rage toward you.

If you retain an L and start to involve professionals, your situation is going to improve. Her rage is going to increase, but your situation is going to improve.

The difference is significant.

I hear the advice.  I am taking the day, stepping back, trying to evaluate the situation.

I have not contacted her today.  I am angry about how the contact went yesterday. 

Now she is trying to contact me (she just texted... .  I have not replied yet).  I know she is upset I am not pursuing her.  I want to act and react in a healthy adult way.  Unfortunately, this has not been a healthy adult relationship for a long, long time.  So I don't know if staying quiet is a healthy adult reaction.  Thoughts?

For the benefit of context, here's the text.

"So... .  nothing?  nothing at all... another day to add onto all of the other ones before. 0% time.  thoughts. words. actions, invested into "fixing" the mess u have made."

Seems like several big, complicated issues.  Lots of good feedback from others here, including some members who have been through similar stuff... .  

Here's my attempt to break it down:

* The affair.  I think it was wrong, and it would be hurtful to anyone, especially someone with her background.  You've acknowledged that it was wrong, you've committed to be faithful and you've kept that commitment for more than two years.  And you've spent time in counseling with her.  That's about all you can do.  By continuing to use it against you, it's pretty clear she is not interested in moving forward.  I think you should move forward without her;  that is, forgive yourself and not let it be used against you any more.

For example, what if you set a boundary:  "I will not listen to more talk about the affair.  If you bring it up, the conversation is over."  Then maintain that boundary - walk away.

You might also want to figure out the best way to talk with each kid about the affair - at least the older ones.  Take away your wife's power by getting it out in the open.  "I made a bad mistake three years ago.  I was seeing a woman.  That was wrong, and I stopped, and apologized to your mom, and I haven't done it again."

* The relationship.  I've never told anyone that I think they should end their marriage, but frankly this isn't going to get better unless she gets the help she needs, and that is entirely beyond your control, and very unlikely.  You need to accept that this relationship is toxic and probably always will be.  Quit telling yourself that the kids would be hurt by a divorce - that's true, but probably much less than they are being hurt by how things are now.  My kids have done much, much better since I created a Mom-free zone for them.  Like night and day.  For you, the sooner you accept that the relationship is toxic, and create a "Mrs. Fisherman-free zone" for yourself, the sooner you'll begin to heal, and every aspect of your life will get better.

* Does she have BPD?  Who knows.  In the divorce process, it may be possible for you both to be evaluated by an objective instrument like the MMPI-2;  that's the only real way to answer this question.  But it's not the key question.  What's key is her patterns of behavior.  You have described them vividly.  They will not change, except they'll probably get worse if you continue to feed the disease (which is what you are doing by accepting her aggressive behavior).

* Danger.  This is the biggest point I think.  You are at high risk right now - physical injury, or more likely arrest.  Your situation mirrors my own around 2006.  I also thought - and often said - "We will never get a divorce."  I believed that the marriage could be fixed, and that it was my obligation to do whatever I could til I found a solution.  I realized I was wrong in jail after my wife physically attacked me and then accused me of assault.

You may think that if she attacks you, you have nothing to fear from the police.  You are wrong.  The police assume that the man is the attacker, although women attack men just as often as men attack women.  They assume that removing you from the home will mean everybody is safe, although women actually harm men as often as men harm women - the idea that because we're bigger and stronger we're the main source of danger is false, because women are more likely to pick up an object.

You may think that if you did nothing wrong you won't be arrested.  That is false, as my own case showed.  The police found solid evidence that proved my wife was lying, and put it in their report, which was issued a few weeks later.  But their procedures still required them to arrest me and charge me with ":)omestic violence - assault".  That's what it says if you look up my name online - the arrest record can never be sealed, purged, or expunged.  So any potential employer can see that.  I haven't had a full-time job since that happened - nobody will give me an interview with that on my record.

The only good way to avoid going to jail and having DV on your public record forever is to never - never - never be in the same place as her, without a non-family adult third party present every minute.  If the non-family adult third party goes to the bathroom, you go too - don't remain where she is for a second, or she can use that time to accuse you of something, and you will go to jail.  (Even with the police record proving she lied, it still took 2 months and $5,000 to get the charges dropped, by the way.  Plus 16 hours of hard time.)

If you go to jail, you can't help your kids.  Your custody case will be toast.  Your career might be affected.  Your mug shot will be on the internet.  People won't trust your story - "If he didn't do anything wrong why was he arrested?".

Job one is to talk to a family law attorney and a criminal defense attorney - not the same person.  Find out your options.  Find out how best to avoid arrest without weakening your case.  (Moving out would be best to avoid arrest, but might weaken your custody case, for example.)  Talk to as many attorneys as you can - you don't have to give one a retainer til you're sure.

If you're not sure about divorce, you don't have to file for divorce, but make sure you have a court-established schedule for the kids - at least half their time with you - or you'll be playing a losing hand.

Document everything.  Only communicate with her by e-mail - no phone or face-to-face communications.

Accept that the relationship is toxic and probably has to go.  Focus on what's best for the kids, which is probably as much time with you as possible and as little unsupervised time with Mom as possible.

When you are ready to go into the legal stuff, you can do that on our Family Law board.  Nobody here can give legal advice but we can share what we've learned.

With all due respect to other members who are still focused on making their relationships work, I would suggest you stay off the "Staying" and "Undecided" boards here - they will only confuse you.  This woman is dangerous.  Your goal should not be to live with the scorpion but to protect yourself and your kids from it.

Hi fisherman,

I've read your story and like the other posters I'm seriously concerned. After your posting of the text of your wife's last message I felt a need to say something. Her text was eerily like things my uBPDexg/f used to say to me, before we parted ways.

However Matt has said almost all of what I had brewing in me (and better than I could, and much more besides), but I want to add this, which comes from my own experience. I'm new here and have been reading on the site for a month. Several of the Lesson boards hit me like a hammer, and I realized that I had experienced as many as 3 major painful relationships with uBPD people over several decades, two of which are still ongoing (although at a distance). The question then was put to me by a friend: am I doing something to attract this?

I then read the 10 myths we tell ourselves that keep us stuck, and these may be useful to you if you haven't already read them.

https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a109.htm

One of them (#9) seemed obviously something that contributed to my continuing in the stuck r/s states, and three or four other myths, though less obvious, I eventually realized I was believing also (each myth has a corresponding thread where they are discussed in detail by posters; links are at the bottom of that first article).

After reading all 10 myths and their discussions, I realized something that is well-understood by many of the posters on this site: that any relationship is a dance that has limited steps. Each partner in the dance is contributing. For the dance to continue both must play their parts, very limited parts, or the dance falls apart. And like many here I was trained in my FOO in the part that is called 'enabler', or 'caretaker', and in many cases that part hooks almost seamlessly with the dance-steps that a BPD person requires.

But we can't change them. We can only change ourselves. So learning about myself as caretaker was the key to stopping the dance. I've already instituted some of the detaching tools explained elsewhere on this site, and almost immediately there was a change for the better in both my uBPD relationships, and hence my life.

I know your situation is hugely more dangerous and complicated, but I believe part of the overall pattern may be the same.

Good luck.

PP

I agree with everything Matt said! Very well written and concise - and right on the money!

I purposefully check in to the site to see if there are any updates on your situation since this thread started.

I pray you realize how serious this could be for you and act as soon as possible!

made an appt. w/ counselor to identify appropriate legal help.

Question... .  what possibilities OTHER than BPD are there for my wife's behavior related to me and the affair?

Self-harm + eating disorder

Physical abuse

Verbal abuse

Destruction of property

Eating disorder

Black/White thinking

Me too!  I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it, but do you have a post office box? Somewhere you can get necessary mail without her knowledge?  Just a thought... .  

Hang tough

CiF

Is it important to you what the diagnosis is? I see a lot of behavior, regardless of it being a manifestation of Borderline Personality Disorder, that you are "allowing" because you admit that you screwed up (by having an affair).

thefisherman, I've been to marriage counseling for infidelity (his).

I was allocated about two sessions focusing on the validation I needed that I had, in fact, been betrayed... .  and how I was a 'victim' of his choice. I was deeply wounded and I was dealing with it as someone who had been traumatized - with a hypervigilance to it. My husband had caused a lot of pain and he needed to acknowledge that. And he did.

But then came the hard part.

The moment when I had to admit to how I helped in contributing to the breakdown of my marriage. The lack of intimacy that I helped create was what was creating the problems in my marriage - the affair was simply a poor coping skill on my husband's part.

Ultimately being able to salvage my marriage took a lot of work on my husband's part and my part. My husband also wouldn't live like you are - taking all the blame. That was his boundary, he would admit to screwing up. He would comply with complete transparency (offering details, severing the relationship with his mistress, access to all phone records, emails, facebook, etc). However, he would not live his life being punished for the mistake he made... .  that was unhealthy for our entire family. Him, me, and our children.

It's been going on three years, thefisherman. At some point it isn't so much about the fact that you cheated on your wife, it starts to be about how she just couldn't get over it.

I don't think you want to live your life like this. Your wife gets to make "her decision" which seems to be that she is content with your current state of living. You are not OK with it.

Waiting on her to "come around" isn't really working for you.

It's time to perhaps move forward in a direction where you get to make some limits and she gets to decide whether or not she wants to comply.   Your own therapist can help you come up with some ideas on how you are willing to live your life - and how you are not willing to live your life.  Example: A therapeutic separation where you live separately and both of you attend individual counseling along with marriage counseling.  You only date each other and you work on rebuilding trust in the marriage.

You're stagnant here, tfm, and it's not fair to you - or your wife.

Yes, she's been traumatized and that is a really hard place to be. I know. However, it's time she start dealing with that trauma or it's time to move on.

BPD or not.

I have to admit it... .  I too keep checking this one... .    really worried about you and your kids... .   

Good idea. I did the same thing. It was my first step.

It was a relatively eventless night.  Left work early to go care for the kids while my wife took the oldest (my stepdaughter) to a school function.  I am at least a convenient baby sitter.  I find it a little frustrating that she says even something as clear as that, isn't a 'gesture of sincere caring or concern for her'.  Apparently I just did it to get the time with the kids (her words).

I have some internal conflict.  I LIKE not being in the same house as my wife.  I am so much lighter in that regard.  Miss the kids.  Do not miss the stress, tension, and anxiety.  Not one bit.  It is interesting to see when she is calm or not present how often they will come to me for affection.  Each of them, even the 5 y/o who starts telling me 'mom hates you' any time she yells.  It is rather reassuring.  I have been made to feel incompetent with regard to my parenting skills.  I am a good parent.  Not a perfect house keeper, but a good parent.  One thing that frustrates me... .  where I am typically more lax than my wife.  I am frustrated by the fact that her rules for the kids, her mode of discipline are stuck in my head.  I need to work on that.  Althought... .  as I think through it, I try to keep them in compliance so they don't get in trouble with her.

I am starting to feel a bit of guilt over the possibility that I may prefer to separate.  I feel bad for failing to keep my kids' home a happy one.  I cringe at the notion of splitting holidays, birthdays, weekends.

Why do I want to know what it is, if it isn't BPD?  Because the kids are going to have to live with it their whole lives.  It may lessen when I am not in the picture.  But they will still have to work with her and survive.  I need to be able to give them skills.  And I have more than just a passing interest.  My degree is in psychology.  Anyway... .  

Of course you like living without your wife.  She is a very, very troubled person. 

It's really hard to believe that these kids are in a happy household with the way things are with you and your wife... .  and from what you have written, it's very hard to believe that they are in a happy household with her anywhere around.  I know she is their mother but she is wildly abusive.  You will do your kids and yourself a huge favor, in my opinion, by making a home that is a safe, loving environment without abuse... .   

I had about a 10 minute breakthrough today.  Well... .  it lasted about 10 minutes for me.  Not sure if it really ever felt like a breakthrough to her.

I had texted something nice this morning.  She texted back something nice a couple hours later... .  frankly out of character... .  a 1 in a 10000 sort of comment from her.  I accepted it for about 10 minutes and then asked her if that message was meant for me.  Back to the dark side with me.  I don't think I have mentioned anywhere in here that I have good reason to think she is having an emotional affair and has been for quite some time.  She has mistakenly texted me before when it was intended for her male friend.  That message was harmless, though pointed to them getting to know eachother awfully well.  I have left it alone.  She got pretty worked up just over me asking if her message was meant for me.  I don't think I could fathom what it would be like if I said "you have been texting this guy at all hours of the day and night.  You have been deleting texts between you.  I believe you are having at least an emotional affair. 

Maybe as part of your gathering information for your 'case', you could begin to look at your cell phone bills really closely for patterns? Then keep them for your records.  Just a thought

CiF

Well, that would fit with this whole business of projection that seems to go hand in hand with BPD.

If you found out yes, she was texting Some Guy 200 times a day, what would you do with this information? Would it help absolve you of your guilt? Would it make it easier to leave?

I know she is texting with this guy a lot.  I would say at least 10 messages each way every day.  I think that is probably very conservative.  I would be surprised if it is not twice that.

What would it do for me to understand the content of that relationship?

It would help me believe that I have done what I can do.  Why does it do that?  I have been wrangling with how to pursue her in a way that would let her reconcile our relationship for herself such that we can reconnect and move forward, as difficult as that may be. 

If she has connected in significant ways with another man, that lets me know that she is rejecting my attempts, quite likely, for reasons other than what she has communicated... .  which are basically that I am an awful person in her eyes. 

I do not doubt I am an awful person in her eyes, but her involvement with the other man gives me a reason for her cold shoulder OTHER THAN me not trying hard enough.

Crazy?  Maybe.    you asked.  :)

thefisherman,

I'm a little bit confused as to what you want your marriage to look like. I see issue after issue piling up here - and you sending her a text back asking if her nice text was meant for you was not conducive of you wanting to reduce the conflict.   

I see a lot of unclear boundaries in your marriage. Infidelity perhaps being a consequence of those blurry lines as to what relationships with the opposite sex are allowed to look like in your marriage.

You are allowing her to have this relationship in secret hoping that she figures it out.

Not fair to you and it certainly is not going to help your marriage. Sorry, it's just not.

If you are interested in having a marriage where other women and men are allowed in - why not be in an open marriage? Take monogamy off the table?

- DreamGirl

I agree my text didn't help.  I wanted to know the answer but I could have/should have crafted it in a different way.  Perhaps say something ELSE nice and see if she responds.  I guess i expected a response and... yes.  I do this sort of thing often.  I am not intending/wanting to perpetuate conflict or cause further hurt feelings... .  but I do sometimes by being direct and asking the question I really want to ask instead of taking a nuanced approach.

Her relationship with the other man is not in secret.  Well... .  she doesn't think it is a secret.  I know who he is.  I know they text.  She knows I know.  The discrepancy is that I also know she deletes texts between them.  She, on one hand says she has nothing to hide and on the other hand hides things.

I have not pushed it because I believe there is no physical aspect to their relationship and I feel like the pot calling the kettle black.

I am realizing in the last few days (starting with me questioning who the text was meant for) that I think there is something more than innocent friendship there.  And I suspect her defensive response to my question communicates she knows there is more to it as well.

Given that revelation, while i do not think there is a reason in the world that she should be abusive like she has been... .  I better understand her motivation to demonize me.  BPD or not-BPD?  I think BPD.  I think she has found someone new to put on a pedestal so she can keep me in the dungeon.

None of this sounds anything like a marriage I want.  I will not live in the dungeon forever.  I won't stay in a marriage that entails more than 2 adults.  I recognize the irony and hypocrisy of ME saying that.

I am perhaps delusional.  I am definitely numb to the situation. 

Perhaps the rest of the world see’s no point in thinking about it any further.  For people outside, it is cut and dried.  For me, I am scared.  I am unsure.  I know what divorce means, better than most.  I have experienced it through my wife’s 1st divorce.  I feel inadequate to handle the situation but perfectly fit to analyze it.

So here you are. :)

Do you want the marriage to work?

Or do you stay because you're afraid of divorce?

You've made both statements.

In this thread.

I see you fluctuating between this guy who desperately loves his wife and feels really bad for a mistake he made... .  to this guy who doesn't really like his wife very much because she doesn't treat him very well.

The "rest of the world" doesn't matter.

Personally, I don't really care which direction you go, I'll support you either way.  

I want you to make the decision to get yourself healthy and learn to be OK with whatever direction this relationship goes. I just want you to pick the direction and then stick to it. Right now, you're kinda stuck in this purgatory where you're doing a lot of contemplating... .  and fluctuating between feeling sorry for yourself, feeling sorry for your wife and being really mad at yourself and being really mad at your wife.

If you want to work on your marriage, you need to establish boundaries. Limits based on your values. I think a good one to start with is opposite sex relationships. "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass, PhD is a really, really good place to figure out these kinds of definitions of what you allow/don't allow in your marriage and why it's not healthy to outsource this kind of "intimacy".  Intimacy is letting people into the sacred spaces of ourselves and every time she is talking intimately with her "friend", it causes you and her more and more disconnect.    

I also like Matt's suggestion about not talking about the affair anymore. Dead horse. Beaten.

I get that she's upset, but at this point - 2 1/2 years later - it is now her issue to deal with. It is not yours to fix, you did your part and will continue doing it (transparency and rebuilding trust). An individual counselor to help her deal with the trauma and the grief is what she needs, not you turning yourself inside out to prove your faithfulness.

Even if you don't want to work on your marriage, you still need to establish different kinds of boundaries for yourself and what's happening with your kiddos.

You feel powerless because you feel like you have no choice.

But you do have a choice.

You are choosing your situation. Right now. You are taking part in it every step of the way. You are in fact caught up in this "dungeon"... .  except there is not really a dragon keeping you from walking up the dungeon steps to wherever it is that you want to go.

It's in your hands in what direction to go.

The same way that it's in her hands which direction she wants to go.

Check out this link:   The Bridge (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=65164.0)

~DreamGirl

Yes.


Yes.


I do love my wife.  I do feel bad for my mistakes.  I do not like the abuse and I resent it.


Thank you.


I will not be ok with continued abuse.  It is difficult to love a person and be abused by them.  That is why you see me keep trying to find a way to make the abuse stop…by changing me or by changing her (and I realize only she can change her…but yes…I keep wanting to show her things that may sway her to change herself).  And yes, I keep trying to show her things that say “I love you” so she can perhaps be ok with me…and yes…I recognize that is me saying I want to change her.  


Boundaries I would like: No yelling.  No hitting (not each other, not the kids).  No breaking stuff (not even food).   Relationship with lawyer needs to end (I hesitate on this…because I don’t know if the content is crossing into inappropriate territory.  I do not want to control who she is friends with.)


I would like to give her one more opportunity to address it verbally, get out whatever she needs to get out and then yes.  Dead horse. If she needs to re-address the affair itself, then she can write a letter but should not expect a response.  Not sure if that is too harsh. 


This is the scary part to me.  I have asked for those boundaries before.  She has refused them all.  Even when I had threatened the restraining order…she eventually went back to everything that I needed to stop.   In terms of ‘the bridge’…yes…she refuses to make it possible to save her.  My version of the bridge is more difficult because it feels to me a little like I pushed her off the bridge and THEN held on tight.


True that I am choosing my situation.    I have been trying to make the decisions that keep my marriage intact.  I am trying to not worry about myself.  I am not always succeeding. 


Like I said…I feel a bit like I pushed her.   Struggling with that.

I have asked for those boundaries before.  She has refused them all.  Even when I had threatened the restraining order…she eventually went back to everything that I needed to stop.

You don't "ask for" boundaries.  You don't threaten them.  You don't negotiate them.  You don't debate them.

You set boundaries, and maintain them.

"If you do X, I will do Y."

One I had to figure out was, "If you speak inappropriately to me on the phone - raging, accusing, blaming, complaining, etc. - I will hang up."  It took me a long time to actually do this, but once I got my act together, I only had to do it a few times.  I win either way - if she quit speaking inappropriately to me on the phone, great.  If not, I just don't talk to her on the phone anymore.  (She quit trashing me on the phone, pretty much.  I haven't had to hang up on her in a long time now.  But then we rarely talk on the phone... .  )

I didn't even ever say those words to her.  I just did it.  I made the decision, and the next time she started in, I hung up, and when she called back, I didn't pick up.  We were done.  A few weeks later it happened again, and I maintained my boundary again.  She's smart, so I'm sure she saw what was happening, and she changed her behavior.  If she hadn't, we just wouldn't talk on the phone anymore.

In your case, you get to decide what those boundaries will be.  You can also decide whether you say them, or just do them.  You decide how you will be treated, just like I decided how I will be spoken to on the phone.

I am trying to not worry about myself.  I am not always succeeding.

You have it backwards.  You need to put yourself first - you can't take care of anyone else if you're not OK.  And the kids second.  The marriage makes sense only if it is good for you and for the kids.  (And my opinion is - very strongly - from what you've told us, this marriage is not good for anyone.  But of course yours is the judgment that counts.)

Many of us have tried to make things better by putting the other party's needs first.  That doesn't work.  You can't meet her needs, no matter what you do, because her problem is between her ears, and you can't fix that.  Putting her needs ahead of your own, and the kids', means nobody's needs will be met.

It's on her to get the help she needs.  Til she does that, she will be deeply unhappy.  You can either work on meeting your own needs, and the kids' needs, or you can continue in this dysfunctional situation that isn't good for anybody.

Building on what Matt said - boundaries are about us. It's not telling others how to act but more about how we live our values and protect those values.

From our Boundary Workshop:


thefisherman, I know that our feelings are always valid. It's the best kept secret that I learned to communicating in every one of my relationships. We all have a right to feel however we feel no matter what others think we should feel.  

You feel responsible for your wife's unraveling due to your affair and that's a hard place to be. I also think that is common in marriages that are trying to recover from an affair. Guilt is a very powerful emotion, an it's taking ahold over all logic and reason in this.

You didn't push her of that proverbial bridge.

She jumped.

She is making a choice not to deal with these problems in your marriage and expecting you to do it for her. It is just not how it works.  

You can't fix it for her and the only thing you can change about this unhealthy dynamic is to change how you deal with things.

The hard truth: If you wait for her to change and realize that you are a good husband despite a mistake you made, you're going to be waiting a really long time. She doesn't have the skill set.

You effect the change in the relationship by developing your own skill set in dealing with her and the issues she presents. You live by your own values and you establish boundaries (and adhere to them all the time) because you deserve it - not because you want her to be someone she's not and act the way you want her to act.

The Staying Board has senior members who are absolutely AMAZING at setting boundaries and learning to communicate with your wife in a more productive way. The one time that you used the SET technique worked pretty well in that it defused the conflict and helped both of you stay calm. That's a good place to be.

I hope this helps you. I know that you are really struggling.

I think you that you are doing all the right things (a counselor and legal advice) and it's really hard to stay grounded when our emotions run so high.  



~DreamGirl  

I hadn't written on here in a couple days.  I thought I would share.

I stayed in the house with her and the kids this weekend.  Last night was very much a struggle.  Had it not already been past midnight when things got somewhat out of control, I don't think I would have stayed.  As it was, it was no worse than yelling though all very black and white for her.  Friday... .  i slept with the little ones so she could sleep.  Last night, I stayed on the couch.  What did I do to warrant the couch?  We got back to the discussion of the text from last week.  I let her know I perceived the extensive texting with another man as having an impact on our relationship.  She got upset but stayed grounded.  Then we started talking about trying marriage counseling again and that... .  well that seems to be a non-starter for her.  She is unwilling to go to any kind of counseling.  And that is her stance.  To change that stance, I will have to demonstrate perfection for some undetermined period of time.  I thought a good long while on how to phrase that last sentence.  this isn't normal perfection we are talking about.  It is the kind where I meet all her expectations and desires in ways that she sees as meaningful. 

Tonight... .  well tonight the family came to the in-laws after a long day of kids sports.  So we were all here.  Things were nice.  I think we actually connected in a few ways, though I could feel remnants of the conversation last night in her mannerisms.

What I did notice that I am struggling with a little is this... .  

I am much more comfortable showing her affection when there are other people around.  And I think I figured it out.  I am scared of her reaction to anything I do when we are alone together.  When there are others, I can act more like myself because I am not faced with the same extreme reactions.

Anyway... .  one small lesson and my goodness... .  I need sleep after the last two nights.  Conversations ALWAYS go on too long.  So there is a question someone here might be able to answer.  How do you end a conversation with a BPDer (wife or otherwise) w/o "hurting her feelings".  Bleh.

I have been in the exact same situation as you, fisherman. mine was for 2 months in the spring of 2009. it was he'll before that, but more since. I already had given up my friends, church, hobbies, and every shred of human dignity to try to sacrifice for the marriage and the result was more demands and more disrespect. that was before. I was an empty shell contemplating going awol on the day I ran into "her".

since then it has been brutal. all the more sacrifice, apologizing, taking responsibility, and giving up of everything again, this time for a real reason. still, the result was the same. emptiness for me and unhappiness and more demands from her. she abused me. physically for 1.5 years, only stopped when the police put cuffs on her. I took back my privacy after almost 3 years after she abused it. I started working out and going to church again despite threats and rages about how she can't trust me and I am heaping all this abuse on her. after a time, there is simply nothing more we can do. We hurt them, and we can only change the decisions we make in the future. we can be the only ones to determine our happiness level. not any validation from others. at some point they will have to bear the responsibility for their pain and deal with it. taking abuse is just that. no matter the reason, it will not benefit anyone. good luck in your decisions.

I admire your optimism  :)

Another way to phrase your question: "Can I have boundaries without hurting my wife's feelings?"

Maybe this will provide some guidance?

How to stop circular arguments  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0)

I seriously need to copy and paste that and refer to it many many times a day... .  

thank you for listing that... .  

You can only do what you think is right, and say what you believe is true.

You can't control how someone else decides to react to it.

Having her feelings hurt is a choice she makes.

That is so simple, and so hard, and so true.

*mod*

Locking this one up - it had reached the 4 page limit. :)

The split can be found here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=193257.0