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Title: Intimacy and BPD Post by: happiness68 on January 16, 2013, 08:22:34 AM I've been analysing today. I keep thinking about a short 3 week split my exbfBPD and I had at the start of July. When we got back together, if I raised my hand to touch his arm or anything of the sort, he would ask me not to touch him and say how he needed me to prove that I was his friend before we could even touch like that again. I feel pretty confident this was an attention thing, but I'm just wondering if anyone else has experienced this type of thing. After another few weeks we were on holiday and started to become intimate again. I always felt between the start of all of this however (i.e. early July and the initial break up) that he acted like he was keeping me at arm's length, but that really wasn't what he wanted. Nothing was further from the truth, but he wanted me to show that I'd fight for him. I hope this makes sense. It's just one of the things that I've been thinking about again. At the start of our relationship we were always very intimate, but after I guess it must have been about 8 months or so I was less interested and looking back, I always believe it was down to my feeling bad about myself when the BPD would kick in, as he would shout, scream, swear at me and there aren't many women who want to be intimate when someone is behaving like that. He even once said how arguments normally bring you closer together and make it all seem more passionate, but then I remember a time about 18 months ago when he told me he just wasn't interested because we'd had a fight that day. I just wondered if anyone else experienced this type of behaviour. I hope this is the right board for this posting.
Title: Re: Intimacy and BPD Post by: hithere on January 16, 2013, 09:03:21 AM Wow, you just described many of the experiences in my relationship to the tee! It is funny how this forum does that... .
The withholding sex is just another tool in the BPD bag of tricks to hurt you. My ex could also never understand why I was not interested in make-up sex after she would scream and yell at me for hours... . I try not to think of a person with BPD as evil but their behaviour sure comes across that way. Title: Re: Intimacy and BPD Post by: happiness68 on January 16, 2013, 09:27:39 AM hithere - I'm glad you came back on this one. I still find it bizarre. I wouldn't mind, but one of the things he wanted me to change was that I would find more time for us with regards to intimacy, which is fine if things are going along well, but with the abuse it's not easy feeling sexy. So you had withholding sex too. What's that all about? Also, what's the make up sex all about after you've just verbally abused someone? What reminded me of this was how 18 months ago we had an argument at his brother's girlfriend's house after a party and I recorded it on my phone, as I wanted to always remember how I behaved and how he behaved. I came across it at the weekend by pure chance and listened to it. During the recording I try to make up after a silly fight and he says no I'm not interested, I can't. He did actually give in if my memory serves me right, but it's very strange. It's almost as if they're trying to keep you at arm's length. It always felt like an act almost. I could never get my head round it.
Title: Re: Intimacy and BPD Post by: FindingMe2011 on January 16, 2013, 09:52:21 AM Excerpt I've been analyzing today This is common on this board, we split things nine ways to Sunday, over, over,and over. Why, because this is how we learned to process things, and it serves us better than average, and typically sees us through. This ordeal goes much deeper, on so many levels. Understand that you need to start FEELING also. Excerpt I keep thinking about a short 3 week split my exbfBPD and I had at the start of July. When we got back together, if I raised my hand to touch his arm or anything of the sort, he would ask me not to touch him and say how he needed me to prove that I was his friend before we could even touch like that again. How did this make you feel? If you only had a partime self, and the other half was another, ( identity issues as a child) and your feelings are facts. Can you see how hard it may be to trust yourself, much less another? Can you see how your personality( rescuer syndrome, and others) could feed into this? There mind is a continuous loop of the same things, over, and, over, and over again. Part time self= fragile ego. It needs to be reassured constantly, and you were more than willing to do this, more on a subconscious level.(what you learned as a child) The problem with this? Its dysfunction at its finest. Its impossible to be emotionally responsible for 2 people. More so when the other has a fragile ego, and almost ANYTHING could be PERCIEVED as an attack on this person, whether real or not. How many times did this person misinterpret your intentions? I came to the understanding that this was the "hamster wheel of pain". Can you see, if by chance, you needed a break from this(and we all did), what the results could be in this persons distorted mind?... . I spent 12 1/2 yrs with uBPDxw, she on many occasions, even now when she gets a chance, says" blah,blah,blah, then you really dont know me, and never did". From her perspective, this is true. When a person has to constantly reinvent themselves, this is the results. Its a confusing severe mental disorder, in a package that appears normal. Excerpt but that really wasn't what he wanted. This is one of the crux of the disorder. He does long for an intimate r/s, but the more intimate he gets, the higher his abandonment fears become. He is his own worst enemy. The same can be said for you, in this type of r/s. Excerpt I hope this makes sense. It makes perfect sense, there is an order to the disorder Excerpt I was less interested and looking back, you were becoming emotionally and physically drained, it was unsustainable Excerpt I always believe it was down to my feeling bad about myself This belief is at the core of your issues, and where the true healing is going to start Excerpt when the BPD would kick in, as he would shout, scream, swear at me and there aren't many women who want to be intimate when someone is behaving like that. Its always in play, this is the results of not feeding his ego, like he needs Excerpt He even once said how arguments normally bring you closer together and make it all seem more passionate, Only if the results fed his ego, to his liking Excerpt but then I remember a time about 18 months ago when he told me he just wasn't interested because we'd had a fight that day. Do your feelings change form day to day, minute to minute. For BPDers, this goes into overdrive. If there feelings are facts, does this now make sense?... . I wish you well PEACE Title: Re: Intimacy and BPD Post by: spaceace on January 16, 2013, 10:06:21 AM I'd like to share a story.
When my wife initiated our separation in May, she took off her engagement ring and wedding band. (Why is anyone's guess). In June we started to see each other again. Late June, she called me up and asked me to come over. At our house, she had taken down any pictures of us. So, on this night I came over, she was all excited to show me she put the pictures back up. She also put her rings back on. During this time, I was not allowed to hold her hand, or kiss her. After she put the rings back on and put up the pictures, she allowed me to hug and kiss her goodnight. Slowly after that, within a couple of days, I was again allowed to kiss and hug her whenever I wanted to. It still took a few weeks before we were intimate. It was all very bizarre to me. But I had no choice but to accept this is what she needed in order to feel safe enough to come back to our marriage. Looking back, it makes little sense. A relationship with healthy relational tools would never have gone to this place to begin with, no less taking down pictures and taking off the rings. It actually hurt tremendously when she did this. And then I was tremendously relieved when she put the rings back on. But looking back it now feels like it was all meant to control me. What really was the point? Title: Re: Intimacy and BPD Post by: happiness68 on January 16, 2013, 02:37:09 PM By split, I'm assuming you mean we analyse? I do. I have to. I feel it's one of the things that helps me. I need to understand what happened. I do feel, I feel full of hurt.
When he told me not to touch him, I didn't really feel much other than pity that he was behaving like that. I knew him very well you see and I saw through that and knew and still do to this day that what he really wanted was nothing more than to be close to me. The asking me not to touch him was an act. He was a very good actor you see. He should have been up for an Oscar. It would seem that you're all correct on this site about how someone with this disorder seems to feel like they have to run the more commitment is shown by us the nons. This is something I will never understand. I've thought about it for so long and I still just can't get it. I never though how I was becoming more and more emotionally and physically drained and that's perhaps why I didn't want the intimacy side. You're probably right there. I have more energy since our split. I always thought it was anxiety, but even in my happy moments I have more energy. I thought I'd become lazy, but I think I could have been exhausted. My skin had flared up whilst we were together every now and again. I don't really have that now, or rarely. You're saying that he turned into the BPD mode when his ego wasn't filled. Yes, you're probably right. Every scenario that took place where he kicked off, was where he felt he wasn't getting enough attention. He felt like that a lot with me, but that was because I had other things in my life, he didn't. How can you expect one person to give you everything in life. It's impossible. He had standards that I could never EVER reach. Yes, at the moment my feelings change a lot. They change from day to day. Yesterday I wanted to contact him, today nothing could scare me more than having to speak to him or have contact with him. Thank you for this. Excerpt I've been analyzing today This is common on this board, we split things nine ways to Sunday, over, over,and over. Why, because this is how we learned to process things, and it serves us better than average, and typically sees us through. This ordeal goes much deeper, on so many levels. Understand that you need to start FEELING also. Excerpt I keep thinking about a short 3 week split my exbfBPD and I had at the start of July. When we got back together, if I raised my hand to touch his arm or anything of the sort, he would ask me not to touch him and say how he needed me to prove that I was his friend before we could even touch like that again. How did this make you feel? If you only had a partime self, and the other half was another, ( identity issues as a child) and your feelings are facts. Can you see how hard it may be to trust yourself, much less another? Can you see how your personality( rescuer syndrome, and others) could feed into this? There mind is a continuous loop of the same things, over, and, over, and over again. Part time self= fragile ego. It needs to be reassured constantly, and you were more than willing to do this, more on a subconscious level.(what you learned as a child) The problem with this? Its dysfunction at its finest. Its impossible to be emotionally responsible for 2 people. More so when the other has a fragile ego, and almost ANYTHING could be PERCIEVED as an attack on this person, whether real or not. How many times did this person misinterpret your intentions? I came to the understanding that this was the "hamster wheel of pain". Can you see, if by chance, you needed a break from this(and we all did), what the results could be in this persons distorted mind?... . I spent 12 1/2 yrs with uBPDxw, she on many occasions, even now when she gets a chance, says" blah,blah,blah, then you really dont know me, and never did". From her perspective, this is true. When a person has to constantly reinvent themselves, this is the results. Its a confusing severe mental disorder, in a package that appears normal. Excerpt but that really wasn't what he wanted. This is one of the crux of the disorder. He does long for an intimate r/s, but the more intimate he gets, the higher his abandonment fears become. He is his own worst enemy. The same can be said for you, in this type of r/s. Excerpt I hope this makes sense. It makes perfect sense, there is an order to the disorder Excerpt I was less interested and looking back, you were becoming emotionally and physically drained, it was unsustainable Excerpt I always believe it was down to my feeling bad about myself This belief is at the core of your issues, and where the true healing is going to start Excerpt when the BPD would kick in, as he would shout, scream, swear at me and there aren't many women who want to be intimate when someone is behaving like that. Its always in play, this is the results of not feeding his ego, like he needs Excerpt He even once said how arguments normally bring you closer together and make it all seem more passionate, Only if the results fed his ego, to his liking Excerpt but then I remember a time about 18 months ago when he told me he just wasn't interested because we'd had a fight that day. Do your feelings change form day to day, minute to minute. For BPDers, this goes into overdrive. If there feelings are facts, does this now make sense?... . I wish you well PEACE Title: Re: Intimacy and BPD Post by: happiness68 on January 16, 2013, 02:42:32 PM spaceace - yes, control. I believe that's why my exbfBPD did the same to me. It's to teach you a lesson, so that you will be better behaved the next time round and learn that you must do what you have to do to please them, or you will be back to square one with the lack of intimacy etc. I'm a very tactile person and touching someone's arm while talking to them was just habit, but even that he told me was me invading his space. I remember once after an argument and intimacy that followed, he told me that he felt that I'd almost violated him, which I found bizarre, especially being a woman half his size. I found it totally bizarre. I only remember that now. I thought he was joking at first. However, he couldn't have been more serious. They kind of do it to teach us a lesson, but if I'm honest for the life of me, I don't know what the lesson is, because I know with me and my experience, when we split this last time, the reason for his leaving when I spoke to him on the phone was that I don't listen and I could have been the perfect girlfriend if I'd have just learnt to listen. 3 months before the list of things I had to change was as long as my arm and I changed them. I don't see how he could then bring up something like not listening. Not listening - this was the man who I sat listening to for 3 hours sometimes while he told me for off for things I'd apparently done, just going over and over and if I dared to interrupt he told me to write it down and we would come back to what I wanted to say at the end, but to be honest I'd run out of energy by the time he'd finished, that I'd just give in. It's all about control. I'm sure that they then go on and do the same with the next person and the one after that and the list goes on.
I'd like to share a story. When my wife initiated our separation in May, she took off her engagement ring and wedding band. (Why is anyone's guess). In June we started to see each other again. Late June, she called me up and asked me to come over. At our house, she had taken down any pictures of us. So, on this night I came over, she was all excited to show me she put the pictures back up. She also put her rings back on. During this time, I was not allowed to hold her hand, or kiss her. After she put the rings back on and put up the pictures, she allowed me to hug and kiss her goodnight. Slowly after that, within a couple of days, I was again allowed to kiss and hug her whenever I wanted to. It still took a few weeks before we were intimate. It was all very bizarre to me. But I had no choice but to accept this is what she needed in order to feel safe enough to come back to our marriage. Looking back, it makes little sense. A relationship with healthy relational tools would never have gone to this place to begin with, no less taking down pictures and taking off the rings. It actually hurt tremendously when she did this. And then I was tremendously relieved when she put the rings back on. But looking back it now feels like it was all meant to control me. What really was the point? Title: Re: Intimacy and BPD Post by: hithere on January 16, 2013, 03:39:32 PM Excerpt This is something I will never understand. I've thought about it for so long and I still just can't get it. We have all struggled with that but the painful truth is you will never understand because you don't have BPD, they live in a completely different reality. Title: Re: Intimacy and BPD Post by: Phoenix.Rising on January 16, 2013, 04:01:28 PM I’m having another Aha moment. If feelings=facts for BPDers, I now understand more fully why they have such a difficult time trusting others. Try to put yourself in that space mentally, where feelings=facts. Go ahead, think about it.
My feelings fluctuate regularly to a large degree. I experience doubts, fears, hopes, concerns, love, hate, disgust, joy, happiness, etc. often on a daily basis, and I can even have many of those different feelings for the same person in one day. However, unlike someone with BPD, I do not constantly live in the moment in my feelings and my feelings do not always equal facts. In other words, I am usually able to look at the bigger picture of a relationship, which encapsulates all of those feelings, and accept (to some degree) that my feelings do not always equal reality. I have the ability to take a wide view and asses the pros and cons realistically. Relationships are not black and white. They contain large gray areas. If feelings equaled facts for me all the time, I can see how utterly confused I would probably feel. That must be incredibly difficult to bear. Their ‘reality’ must be constantly changing. Hence, she 'loves' me today, and 'hates' me tomorrow. Title: Re: Intimacy and BPD Post by: happiness68 on January 17, 2013, 01:11:09 AM When I analyse, I tend to understand from past experience, but I guess maybe you're right and I will never quite get it, because I can't. Perhaps because I'm not ill. I do like to think I'm quite open minded to things and understanding people. Sometimes I suppose we have to let things go. It's not easy though. You all know that.
Excerpt This is something I will never understand. I've thought about it for so long and I still just can't get it. We have all struggled with that but the painful truth is you will never understand because you don't have BPD, they live in a completely different reality. Title: Re: Intimacy and BPD Post by: happiness68 on January 17, 2013, 01:15:07 AM Phoenix.Rising - now you put it like that, yes, it feels strange, but makes a bit more sense. I tend to think in black and white, but in love and feelings, I do have the grey area and know full well that no matter how angry I am with someone, it will pass, because I love them and I don't stop loving them just because I'm angry or hurt or anything else for that matter. My exbfBPD when we split acted towards me with such hatred and anger. I believe he still does and we're three months on. I believe that he's angry at me because he blames me for the r/s not working. He thinks I should have done everything he wanted and then we would have been happy. What he doesn't realise is that his expectations were so high that nobody could reach them and above that, every time I did reach them, there would be a new goal for me. That said, it was impossible. It was going to happen that one day he would blow and not come back and sadly it did. I sit there thinking oh I wish I'd done this and I wish I'd done that, but I suppose what I have to realise that it would have still ended no matter what I did, whether it was then or in 6 months time. Black and white in feelings - this is the root of it I think.
I’m having another Aha moment. If feelings=facts for BPDers, I now understand more fully why they have such a difficult time trusting others. Try to put yourself in that space mentally, where feelings=facts. Go ahead, think about it. My feelings fluctuate regularly to a large degree. I experience doubts, fears, hopes, concerns, love, hate, disgust, joy, happiness, etc. often on a daily basis, and I can even have many of those different feelings for the same person in one day. However, unlike someone with BPD, I do not constantly live in the moment in my feelings and my feelings do not always equal facts. In other words, I am usually able to look at the bigger picture of a relationship, which encapsulates all of those feelings, and accept (to some degree) that my feelings do not always equal reality. I have the ability to take a wide view and asses the pros and cons realistically. Relationships are not black and white. They contain large gray areas. If feelings equaled facts for me all the time, I can see how utterly confused I would probably feel. That must be incredibly difficult to bear. Their ‘reality’ must be constantly changing. Hence, she 'loves' me today, and 'hates' me tomorrow. Title: Re: Intimacy and BPD Post by: GreenMango on January 17, 2013, 01:48:32 AM It probably a good idea to remember that trust and intimacy are very difficult things for a person who is sensitive to rejection/abandonment and has poor coping skills, like splitting. It is one of the impairments listed for the disorder: intimacy, empathy, self-direction, and identity.
It can take some time in a 'normal' relationship after an incident that erodes at trust to get back to comfortable intimacy. But with a person who's fearful of intimacy and scared to trust anyways, not necessarily because of the things you did but the previous history where they've been hurt profoundly, it can be incredibly hard to gain a level of consistent intimacy and very difficult if they have perceived a threat or you've hurt them. The reaction will generally be exponentially worse than a person equipped to dealing with their emotions. I can't express enough one of the 10 beliefs that can keep you stuck here: https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a109.htm#2 (https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a109.htm#2) 2) Belief that your BPD partner feels the same way that you feel We can easily get stuck thinking that someone that has BPD feels and thinks similarly to us or feels like we do or reads situations like we do... . a person with BPD struggles with cognition (thinking and perceiving the world), emotions (erratic feelings change from one day to the next) and coping skills (which affects the ability to mitigate triggering thoughts or feelings leading to a lack of control in behavior or impulsive behavior). It's not always like this, but this instability is the go to place, the rule... . not the exception. It isn't only part of the big issues or problems, it can be in the everyday little stuff. It is pervasive and profoundly affects intimate relationships. You might see it echoed around here that above everything else it is a disorder of intimacy and abandonment. Two polar opposites: close and far. A contradiction much like the behavior and how it is manifested and perceived by the ones closest to them. It's very easy to take all this personal because it hits home in some way or another, but as painful as it is this is the disorder. It can be hard to not take this personally, but this isn't you or some problem with your sexual prowess or desirability. This is the typical trajectory of this disorder when it comes to intimacy. Title: Re: Intimacy and BPD Post by: happiness68 on January 17, 2013, 02:16:58 AM Thanks for this GreenMango - this is very true in my situation. My exbfBPD was most definitely sensitive to rejection/abandonment and has poor coping skills. I didn't see it at the time, but I do now. I realise all of this. He also has the impairment listed for the disorder that you mention below. Nothing big had happened for him to have been the way he was. He wanted me to change when we broke up for a few weeks early July, but they were small things and things that could have been easily repaired and I did my best to put those things right. I was doing well. He told me so himself. It's not like I was ever unfaithful to him or did anything terrible. I guess with BPD though the person who suffers from it sees the small things as big things to them. Writing this, I start to wonder if the reason he didn't last with the women before me for those 18 months after his wife is because they had bigger things that needed to be changed and the reason we lasted so long is because we were in fact quite close to what he'd really wanted, though he was too scared to seize it and after 2 1/2 years he thought everything should be 100% perfect. Not sure if what I've written here makes sense. I do know what you mean though about the BPD being so very sensitive. I would describe my exbfBPD as hyper sensitive. It would kind of feminine. I loved him though and that's why I tried to deal with it the best way I could. I didn't tell him that I felt it was ridiculous that I couldn't touch him. I showed patience and tolerance as I always have, well at least for the last 18 months of the relationship anyway when I realised that something wasn't quite right (though I didn't know what), but I wanted to make things as easy as I could and be more sensitive to how he was feeling.
It probably a good idea to remember that trust and intimacy are very difficult things for a person who is sensitive to rejection/abandonment and has poor coping skills, like splitting. It is one of the impairments listed for the disorder: intimacy, empathy, self-direction, and identity. It can take some time in a 'normal' relationship after an incident that erodes at trust to get back to comfortable intimacy. But with a person who's fearful of intimacy and scared to trust anyways, not necessarily because of the things you did but the previous history where they've been hurt profoundly, it can be incredibly hard to gain a level of consistent intimacy and very difficult if they have perceived a threat or you've hurt them. The reaction will generally be exponentially worse than a person equipped to dealing with their emotions. I can't express enough one of the 10 beliefs that can keep you stuck here: https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a109.htm#2 (https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a109.htm#2) 2) Belief that your BPD partner feels the same way that you feel We can easily get stuck thinking that someone that has BPD feels and thinks similarly to us or feels like we do or reads situations like we do... . a person with BPD struggles with cognition (thinking and perceiving the world), emotions (erratic feelings change from one day to the next) and coping skills (which affects the ability to mitigate triggering thoughts or feelings leading to a lack of control in behavior or impulsive behavior). It's not always like this, but this instability is the go to place, the rule... . not the exception. It isn't only part of the big issues or problems, it can be in the everyday little stuff. It is pervasive and profoundly affects intimate relationships. You might see it echoed around here that above everything else it is a disorder of intimacy and abandonment. Two polar opposites: close and far. A contradiction much like the behavior and how it is manifested and perceived by the ones closest to them. It's very easy to take all this personal because it hits home in some way or another, but as painful as it is this is the disorder. It can be hard to not take this personally, but this isn't you or some problem with your sexual prowess or desirability. This is the typical trajectory of this disorder when it comes to intimacy. |