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This week, I will have my first settlement conference.

Facts:

24 year marriage. She left for almost a year (DIF that lasted 10 months).

S22, D19 both in college

I'm paying S22 rent.  S19 lives with me.

Oct 2012: Pendente Lite order gave me exclusive use of house. Gave her $1000/month and the requirement to get a job. Come back in 3 months.

Jan 2013: She got no job. Still living with her sister.

Major assets: House: $40K equity, her stock account, my 401k and pension. Some debts <10K

I am willing to give her as much as the house as she wants as long as she gets none of my pension.

I'm eligible for full pension in 18 months.  I doubt/hope not that she or her L understands the impact the pension fund will pay out.

Input plz

Do you have a lawyer?

Have you found your state's guidelines for alimony?

It seems sensible for you to stay in the house, since one of the kids is living with you, and if you can make the payments.

I would suggest you ask the other side if they want to make an offer, or make an offer based on your state's guidelines.  The pendente lite order suggests that $1,000 a month may be considered reasonable by the court, given both your incomes.

In most states, assets just get split, except those brought into the marriage.  If you keep the house, that puts $40k on your side, so the other assets will have to be split in her favor, to balance that out.  Or you could take the debt to make it balance out, or give her extra money for a period of time til it's worked out.

If her lawyer is competent, they will require you to provide all the information about your pension.  It's the lawyers' jobs to get all the financial information out in the open so things can be split evenly.  Your lawyer will probably expect you to be open about financial stuff too.

With your pension, if applicable, make absolutely certain that she signs the appropriate documents on the spot. The law is still in  the dark ages and allows a previous spouse pension privileges unless she signs them over. BPD's never sign once the moment is past. We are stuck with this at the moment.

 I have a good lawyer.  

What worries me is that in the past 20+ years, all expenses have been paid by me, the assets I brought into the marriage have been spent. None by her.  

I did co-mingle into "her" stock account 13 years ago when I switched jobs and placed funds into her account.  In my state, anything after 5 year is considered long term marriage.  Generally in my state she will get 30% of my gross or in reality 50% of my net.  However, due to our mortgage that will leave with nearly not enough to leave on.

If you ask my preference, I'll give up the house to keep her out of my pension.  My L will go after her stock account as a counter to her need for support. "If she has $$$ then why does she need $$/month?"

What I am hoping for is a lump sum offer.

If the funds were mingled, you can still try to show what is yours.  For example, I had an account that had less than $100 in it, and I used it to deposit a large sum that was mine, not ours.  I shouldn't have done that - I should have kept those two amounts separate - but the court said since almost all the money was mine, in the settlement we should just move $50 (half of what was in that account before I put in the large amount) into my wife's column.  That co-mingling wasn't a problem.

So you can try to sort it out, and if you can show very clearly what is yours, and what is "community property", the court might accept that.  But if it's messy, the court is likely to say it's all community property.

Don't wait for the other side to figure it all out.  You figure it all out.  Make a settlement offer that you believe is fair and in keeping with your state's guidelines.  Be prepared to explain every penny - how you did all the math.  Make the offer in writing.  Then if the other side doesn't respond positively - they don't accept your offer and they also don't make a helpful counter-offer - you prepare for trial.

Her atty made an offer:

50% of all assets.

50% of my retirement fund

she keeps 100% of her assets

For now she get  of less than the Va required amount for alimony

When I retire (18 months), she gets 100% of the pension.

My L don't worry negotiations are not over. They're aiming high

Have you made an offer yet?

What do you think is the down-the-middle solution - where the court would most likely rule on each issue?

Have you looked at your state's guidelines for alimony and division of assets?

 Matt,

Question about settlements... .  is there a number of "good faith" offers either party should make?

So far my HUSBAND L has sent one (low balled it),

My lawyer responded with a higher counter offer-normal, I guess, but still within guidelines.

then it took 3 weeks just to get some pay stubs and info from HUSBAND and his  lawyer.

My lawyer has just sent over our second (lower) offer and it's reasonable. HUSBAND rarely feels like working an 80 hour pay period.

If we don't get a reply by Jan 25th we end up going to court for a temp order of support. But I'd prefer not to.

Is it common to go back and forth several times like this?

thanks,

GL

If there is progress toward a settlement - maybe the two sides are getting closer on all the issues, or at least some of them - then it can be fine to continue like this - probably cheaper than going to trial.

Maybe you settle most issues this way, but some are really difficult.  Then you sit down together and see if you can get creative to resolve them somehow.

But if the offers going back and forth don't seem like they're getting you closer to a settlement, it might be best to quit negotiating and focus on preparing for trial.

A really key point - which all lawyers should know, but some don't - is that you never "counter your own offer".  If the other side doesn't like your offer, they need to propose something.  Don't give them a better one, or they'll keep rejecting your offers, and you'll keep giving them better ones - not a good approach.

Matt, ,

Forestaken-sorry to butt into your thread... .  

My lawyer based her initial counter-offer offer on the pay stubs I had and his contract proving H's income.

since then he's gotten a raise and a new contract-but hasn't provided that info yet.

She had to revise after the other party provided (finally) more updated info-which I felt was all above board and reasonable.

I believe we are close to a final figure. well, closer than before.

Ours seems easy- temp support and some alimony for a term. it's a difference of 6K that he's digging his heels in over. But Money is a trigger for him.

MY lawyer is ready to go to trial. HUSBAND sold his house one week after filing for divorce, which violated the express terms of the dissolution. I don't think he's thinking of the ramifications.

thanks,

GL

In our case no one really wants the house.  The main asset here is my future pension.

My L proposed small alimony now and splitting everything including my pension.

Once the pension payment kick in, that will be her support.  I will cease paying alimony to her directly.  Not happy but that gives me some funds coming in.

She wants it all of my pension. 

If we go to court my L will indicate negative contribution to the marriage.  My adult children will testify of my total commitment to them and her abuse,  Depending on the judge, the outcome could go either way.

The last judge told her to get a job. I know she has made no attempt.

Does she have any job skills?

My husband's ex-wife wouldn't get a job either during the divorce proceedings. He paid her nearly $2000/mo in child support/alimony. He also was expected to pay the mortgage of the marital home. She wasn't inspired to get a job. Why would she?

In the end, however, it became her choice. It stopped being his responsibilty to maintain her lifestyle.

My state has a strange way of looking at alimony and the calculation is more of a "guide" - not an absolute like the Child Support calculation.  Even though she didn't have a job, they took her degree and considered what her potential job earning would be and calculated based on that. It dropped to $1,100/month and alimony was waived if he took on all the marital debt.

He also had to buy her out of his pension.


I don't get how that makes any sense - she gets it all and you get none?

Is her attorney suggesting that this is a possibility?

She has a degree from a University in Mexico, accredited in the US (her brother-in-law / American) got his medical degree there and he practices here.  Could she get a job? Yes, Want to: No!

How did your h buy her out of his pension?

He offered an amount after an accountant review - to place a value on it based on current value, amount of time married, amount paid in, etc.

They also were only married for 8 years and she wanted money. Now. He wouldn't retire for another 25 years-ish.

His attorney really low balled it and she amazingly took the offer.

She was also more focused on the child support. It was the guaranteed way she'd be getting money for the next 16 years.

So it's probably apple and oranges into comparison to what you're dealing with.

I do think that her ability to work and earn her own retirement would be a factor.

Even just bringing up the inheritance (even though you can't touch it) would be helpful. Judges are human too and having her cry "poor me" doesn't ring as loud when she has a substantial amount of money to tap into.

~DreamGirl

So true.  Even if the judge rules it wasn't commingled with marital assets, at least it's not hidden.  Jusdge are allowed "judicial discretion" and can bend the application of the rules, guidelines and polices.


I recall reading about a precedent set in California where a doctor quit his practice and started flipping burgers in an effort to avoid child support or alimony. Judge lambasted him and 'imputed' his reasonable or potential income when making calculations.

Also, since it is easy for a person to say they can't find a job, there are a thousand ways a person can sabotage their job searches and job interviews and the courts ought to realize it.  Sure the economy isn't great, but that shouldn't be interpreted that a person will never find work.

Be sure to push for 'imputed' in your case.  Just because she didn't have to work before doesn't mean she doesn't have to work now.

More and more states are changing to the goal of alimony only being short term to allow the disadvantaged spouse to get settled in post-marriage life, and perhaps also to get a degree, career training or a job.  No, not an 8-12 year degree.  A 2 year degree at a local inexpensive college is typical.

Update:

The court order in Oct 2012, stated I pay 1K/month (low) and she gets a job (no attempt)

My s2bx got a new lawyer earlier in Jan 2013, and her L met with my L in late January.  Her L indicated that they want to end this soon.  My s2bx and her eviler sister are suing their brothers for control of a sizable land inheritance in Mexico.  They were in the middle of the lawsuit last year when I filed, stalling their lawsuit.

We're offering $80k for her to walk away from anything and everything (no alimony).  Plus, she keeps the co-mingled stock accounts $60K+

I get the house, gain a second mortage, obiligated to my dad for $40K, lose my 401K, get the debts but retain 100% of my pension.

Have you made that offer in writing?

If the other side is eager to settle - and they have a practical reason to settle soon - it may be best to let them make the offer.

If you have already made the offer in writing, don't make another one.  Let them respond in writing;  they can either accept your offer or make a counter-offer.

If offer already made, was it stated that it was final, not up for negotiation?

If not yet made, Matt stated a good point.  While our impulse is to be fair, if making an offer or counter-offer you generally hold something back since almost always the other side wants to haggle for more.  I know you have special circumstances, but just adding as a disclaimer.

Not yet,

I met with my L on Wednesday,

Talked with my dad on Thursday

Met with my credit union today

(got all the info)

and emailed my L with what I got minutes ago.

Waitin' and praying.

It will be final. 

Given it is extremely doubtful she will remarry, We are looking to get out of any perpetual alimony. 

Factors:

I know she prefers to live in her home country. 

She wants to sue her brothers for denying her share of the inheritance.

The settlement will allow her to restart and have her own business. 

In the long run I will pay more month-to-month than the lump sum offered.

I think what FD and I are talking about right now is the mechanics of the negotiation - not what the settlement should be - you seem to have a pretty good, clear idea about that - but how the negotiations are handled.

We often assume our attorneys are skilled negotiators.  Some are.  Many aren't.  Learning basic negotiation skills is not part of most attorneys' educations.  Sometimes we pay a big price for that.

One aspect is what is known as "countering your own offer".  It's a big mistake!  What that means is, if you have made an offer, and the other side hasn't accepted it or made a helpful counter-offer, it's a mistake to make another, more attractive offer.  Because when you do that, you show them that if they will dig in their heels you'll give them better and better deals.  So... .  they'll dig in their heels.

Since the other party is eager to settle - and you know that she has a very good reason to want to settle - it's probably best to let her make the offer - and make sure it's in writing.  Her offer may be surprisingly attractive - maybe even better than what you are thinking of offering!

If her offer is pretty good but not quite what you hope, you can make a counter-offer, and probably get to a good settlement.

Or if her offer is really lousy, you can say, "We don't think that's a good offer at all.  You'll need to do way better than that."  Let her counter her own offer!

The party who is most highly-motivated to settle, should make the offer.  In this case, I think you both want to settle, but she has a powerful $ motivation to settle soon - the lawsuit with her brothers.

Patience is a virtue!

One more comment - a mistake many of us make at this stage - verbal offers.  Be very careful about verbal offers from either side to the other.

If the other side makes a verbal offer - "What would you think if we offered you X?" - the right response is, "Put it in writing, and we will respond in a timely way."  The reason is, you want to read exactly what they are offering, and you don't want to let them weasel out of it, which they could do if it's only verbal.  And you tell them "we'll respond in a timely way" as a courtesy to them, to let them know you're bargaining in good faith and not jerking them around.  "In a timely way" probably means a few days.

It's always a mistake to accept a verbal offer, because then they can make it a little more favorable to them when they put it in writing - they can walk it back a little.

It's often a mistake to reject a verbal offer too, unless it's really horrible.  Usually better to say, "Put it in writing and we'll respond in a timely way."

Making verbal offers to the other side can also make things worse, by muddying the waters.  But it can sometimes be good to ask, "If we offered such-and-such would you accept that?", and see what they say.  But if they are skilled negotiators, they won't give you an answer;  they'll probably say, "Put it in writing... .  ".

New twist: I started receiving strange friend requests on FB from extremely hot women whom I never met.

Then a month later (last week), I saw a white van without markings near my house. When I looked at them, they drove off (I wasn't thinking about my s2bx hiring a PI)

BTW: Offer made to settle on 2/18/2013, still waiting on a response.

 

If the kids are grown, then there's custody issues.  Most states also have no fault divorces, what about yours?  :)ecades ago hidden affairs and sexual preferences were seen as hot-button topics.  These days it's usually allegations of DV or child abuse.

Is this more her wanting to paint you as having abandoned her for other women, that is, seeking sympathy from friends and community or blaming?

I wouldn't doubt but that she's looking for possible leverage in the divorce case and maybe finagle a financial or social benefit if she can entrap you.  Walk carefully... .  and get that license plate number. :)

Offers should not be open-ended.  They should be valid for a week or two - "This offer is valid through 3/27/13."

If your offer didn't say that, that's OK.  You can e-mail them, "We will honor the offer made 2/18/13 through 3/15/13."  After that,  it's off the table.

Sometimes lawyers won't respond to an open-ended offer, because they think if they wait you'll sweeten it.  But if they know it's only valid til Friday, and there is no guarantee you will honor it after that, they may fish or cut bait.

Or... .  You could just contact them and say, ":)o you intend to respond to that in a timely way?"  If they say no or don't respond, then you take it off the table.  If they say yes, you ask when you can expect their response, and if it's reasonable - maybe within a week or so - you say, "OK, we'll look for your response by 3/20/13.  After that the offer is no longer valid."

Matt knows what's up.

Ask your lawyer to look into whether any "tracing rules" apply in your jurisdiction.  Different courts have different rules about which methods are acceptable.

If they are over 40, you can probably assume that they have little to no formal in Alternative Dispute Resolution ("ADR," which includes negotiation, mediation, and arbitration settings).  On the other hand, lawyers who have graduated law school in the past 15 years or so are likely to have adequate-to-solid training in this area. 

Abandonment for other women.  She always had "preceptions" I was cheating.  I never cheated so she could never prove it.


The offer was open-ended. The letter was sent out on 2/18. I will contact my L on Monday 3/18 for an update and request a deadline.

Given the mystery van and the strange FB friend request, I suspect a pretty sleazy and sloppy Private Investigator. 

Thanks. I will keep ya'all informed

Your lawyer doesn't sound very good if he made an open-ended offer like that.  It's a basic thing.

You'll either have to find a better one, or supervise him very closely.

For all I know, an offer without a specified expiration may be 'okay' in many divorces, lawyers don't seem to focus on the details and usually it doesn't come back to haunt them.  However, in cases like ours, vagueness such as lack of offer end dates just invites delays and other complications.  We have to be proactive, assertive and be watchful for ways we can be saboaged or else something *will* eventually blow up in our faces.

Called my L this morning. He's in court.  Spoke to an assistant about the progression or lack of progression of my case.  Can't afford to switch so close to settlement.

Changing lawyers late in the game could add a lot of cost, and create problems and delays.

Maybe you can just supervise him very closely.  Ask a lot of questions - exactly what will happen when - and follow up with him frequently to make sure each step is done.

On that offer, have a frank talk with him.  Send him an e-mail telling him you will come to his office tomorrow at 9:00 - don't ask for an appointment - tell him you will be there and you expect him to meet briefly with you.

When you meet, ask exactly how this case will be resolved, and how he will put a date to the open-ended offer.  For example, it could be withdrawn, and replaced by an identical offer with a close date of next Friday - enough time to give the other side a chance to respond, but no more.

Ask what he will do if the other side doesn't respond.  What are the next steps - has he filed for a trial date - how will this case get finished.  Don't stand up - even if he does - til you have the answers you need.  Watch body language - he may try to avoid talking to you by not sitting down, or standing close to the door, hoping you will leave.  Go into his office - not the entry area, but the room where his desk is, and sit down, and don't stand up again to you are satisfied with the commitments you have received.

Take notes very carefully, and read them back to him:  "So what I'm hearing is that you will do X by March 20 - is that correct?  And you will do Y by March 27 - is that right?  Date the page in your notebook.  When he sees that you are taking notes, and dating the page, he will recognize that you are going to hold him accountable for his performance of these actions.

Then, on those dates, e-mail him:  "When we met on March 18, you committed to do X by March 20.  Please send me confirmation today that X has been completed."  If you don't get that confirmation, send him another e-mail the next day:  "On March 18, you committed to do X by March 20.  Yesterday I e-mailed you for confirmation that X had been completed, and I received no response.  I expect a response by close of business today confirming that you have completed X as you agreed to do."

Make each e-mail more clear, fewer "pleases".  If he doesn't do what he said he would do to your satisfaction, call your state's bar association and ask what remedies you have.  In my state, they will mediate in some cases, to avoid the need to file suit against your lawyer.

If you are not clear and consistent, your lawyer may continue to treat you like a second-class client.  He should be answering all your questions and helping you understand exactly what is happening, and he should be getting things done with minimal delay.

I emailed his office as the call this morning (he was in court) went unanswered at this point in time.  I honestly don't know, what kind of case he was in court for.

Since I have a T appointment next wed afternoon, I requested to meet with him after my T appt about 1 hour after my T appt finishes.  Work is increasing where I am and staffing is not. I don't want to make excuses but I can't afford to be away from work a scattering of multiple times.  

Right now, it's the only finanical stable thing I got.  Nevertheless, I know I got to get this done.

"He's in court" may mean "He's working on another case that is more lucrative so he doesn't want to talk to you."  Don't be distracted.  This isn't about whether he's in court.  It's about your case and how it will be resolved.

You have paid him to do this job.  You have the right to expect that it will be done properly and in a timely way.

If he doesn't return your calls in a timely way - one attorney even returned my call on a Sunday, before I had even retained him, so there are attorneys who respond well to their clients - you don't have to take that lying down.

Write an e-mail, copying whoever you know in his office:

To:  Attorney

From:  Forestaken

re:  Your services.

I have tried to contact you by phone but have not received a return call.  This is unacceptable.  I expect you to return my calls in a timely manner.

I will be in your office at 9:00 tomorrow to discuss the issues I have raised with you about my case.  Please be prepared.

When you become dissatisfied with the lack of info or response, your manta needs to be:

"I am the client and you are the service provider."

Well said!  And very important!

We are exiting abusing relationships;  we allowed ourselves to be abused by the other party, or we wouldn't need a divorce lawyer.

Sometimes our relationships with our attorneys follow the same path - we allow ourselves to be abused, and the other party (in this case the attorney) senses that, and the abuse gets worse.

Gagrl's mantra should help!

Do keep in mind that lawyers do have to schedules to keep at court and elsewhere.  And you're not his only client, so the fact is he can't be at your every beck and call.  However, that does not excuse him from providing adequate and timely response and service, even if the response is just to state when he can be available.  You are his client and you do have needs that must be addressed in order to receive proper service, sooner and not sometime later.  The past pattern is apparently inadequate.  See if you can find a balance that satisfies both your needs and his schedule.

In my field, I pretty often fall behind.  At the end of each day - which might be late at night - I respond by e-mail to anybody I wasn't able to respond to earlier in the day.

Even if the response is, "I'm sorry I wasn't able to get back to you earlier today.  I will be in court tomorrow, but I will call you at 9:00 a.m. Monday to answer your question." - that's a response, and shows that he is trying to do what you need.

Failing to return calls and e-mails in a timely way - there's just no excuse for a professional to do that.

I'll notified them I will be coming by on Wednesday afternoon to discuss (I have a T session at 1:30).  The issue now is not just me but the kids FSFSA. S2bx is sitting on a $90K inheritence stock account but she not contributing to their education despite their requests.  I know that will count against them when they apply for finanical aid.

Heard back from my L (email) he stated: He heard back from s2bx's L. S2bx's L had trouble getting a hold of s2bx to meet. Meeting scheduled for next month.

In the meantime: I've request he place a deadline on the offer. 

In additional, S22 has requested money for college from momster, only to get back "I love you", "God bless you" etc. Finally S22 told to stop texting him with that BS, either help or F' off.

Update:

Oct (6 months ago): Judge gave orders for me to pay and for her to get a job.

Feb (2 months ago): Settlement offer sent by my L to her L. No response

April: My L knows that he can show that she is using support money for legal not living expenses, Ordering a job skills evaluation for her this week.  Since working is "beneath her", I understand why there is no "offer good until... .   " date on the settlement offer.  Chances are she'll move on the settlement offer.

Update:

Went to court today, S2bx just got a job working as an event staff waiteress (non-steady & not even a first paycheck),  Her L lied to the J telling that my s2bx had only a H.S. diplomia (she has a college degree in communication science), only speaks limited english (she pass the US citizen exam and our kids speak no spanish), has no assets (she has a $80K stock portfolio)

My L wanted her to have a skills evaluation, her L stated that my s2bx has no funds for a counter evaluation.  So, if we were to get her to our jobs evaluator, I have to pay for a counter evaluator too.

The WORST thing about today was my L didn't get a chance to speak.  After her L painted a picture, the J made a decision, when my L began to speak. the J cut him off.

My S23 and I are furious.

Can you file something with the court, stating what you told us here?

Tell that the other attorney made false statements, and that the other party has money to pay for the evaluation?

I don't know.  Both my L and I were shell shocked.  I sent him an email after 5pm requesting a conference.  Even though the origin of the stock portfolio is hers. My name is still on it.  The statements are being sent to her sister's house here she is staying.  I thinking about getting a copy.

If you can prove that they lied, you might be able to file a motion asking them to be held in contempt.

Not allowing your lawyer to give your side?  I bet the judge said something like no more time?  (Most initial hearings are very brief.)  If so, then the case should have been continued to another date to allow the needed time.  But what's done is done.  Most orders, if an order was issued, can be appealed but you may not have much time to do so.  (Settlements cannot be appealed which is one reason why courts love settlements.)

Meanwhile, get those statements.  Do you have access to them so you can make copies?  You want to have them with you at the next appearance if possible.  If you are named on the account, then you have a right to get statements.  All you need to do is identify yourself to that company and request copies, I should think.  As a last resort your lawyer could subpoena copies.

One thing about appeals is that you're not supposed to include evidence not submitted to the court.  But it sounds like your lawyer can claim he or she was not given reasonable opportunity to present his side.  The judge probably could be counting on two things: (1) Most decisions aren't appealed.  (2) Most people don't want to pay the added cost of an appeal.

You've just gotten an idea of stbEx's lawyer's strategy.  Now you know some of the things to give more focus and attention in future preparation.

Update: went to court last week, Her L requested me to pay for her services. My L argued that this has taken too long as s2bx has already had 1 L and current one is the second. J heard both sides this time.

Last time, J only listened to her L granted $7500 in fees to dispute a work skills analysis.

Since s2bx is working PT, the J granted $5K limit,  I have to call my L at the end of September to see if I have to pay the $5k.

But here is the nutty thing, her L will be calling her family, her friend (Ms. M ~ who my kids and I don't know) and an old family friend (Ms. J) who we haven't seen in 10 years as witnesses?  They will claim I am abusive.

My side: My 2 adult children D20 S23 who actually witnessed the abuse.

It is amazing how messy these things can get... . this should have been a relatively simple matter, and would have been, had a personality disorder not been in the mix.  I really think all judges need to get some training on high conflict people!

Yeah, family law judges should certainly have some basic education in psychology.

About 14 years ago, my S used to play with Ms. J's 4 boys. Almost always, my S was the one who got hurt. So, I didn't want my S playing with them. Reasonable?

Well, I did an online court search and as adults these same boys have been arrested for DUI, driving on suspended licenses, speeding, disorderly conduct, etc. In short, they weren't controlled as youths (ewe-t's) and became wreckless young men.