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My SO's stbxw (I may have to change the stb for "soon to be" into an etb for "eventually to be", this is taking so long) has total control over SS13's phone. She bought it for him 3 years ago and since SO filed for divorce, it's easier to hack into the Pentagon than get a phone call or text through. It's perpetually "lost" or she's "told him to call but he won't" or whatever. Lately, as she has lost the ability to mess with his parenting time, she has cracked down even harder on the phone and demands that he call SS on her phone. Basically, SO just never calls him, it's not worth the engagement. Since they are on a 2/2/5/5, it's only 5 days without speaking to him.

Magically, when they are vacation, she is able to get him to call every night!

Last night SO attempted to call and his phone was off. There was an email exchange in which he asked her to have him call, she said he would have to call her phone, she wouldn't do it any other way... .  we finally ignored after 3 emails, thinking she would have him call eventually, and she did. In the end she knows it looks bad for her if he doesn't call SO.

And yes, he speaks to her all the time, on his phone, on SO's phone and on his iPad.

Anyway, we have not hit on any good solutions to this problem, and are open to ideas. Here's what we've concluded:

-Any court ordered phone time would create more conflict, and she would certainly demand the same consideration so we'd be tied up every night either waiting for his call or having him call her, which just gives her more attention and more engagement, and would likely annoy a 13 year old near to death.

-If we buy him his own phone on our plan, it will disappear in a New York minute and we will be forever paying out for new phones.

The best option we can come up with is to let him know that if he wants this problem solved, he will have to do it himself. We will get him a phone for our place so he can call friends/us and it will have to stay at our house (we will call it a "house" phone and not his).

Any other ideas? SO will be bringing it up with the co-parent counselor as well.  All of the emails from yesterday were copied in to her, so I'll be interested to see what she thinks of this little game.

The key to this is for you and SO and SS to work it out and make a plan, and then follow through.

For example, if you get SS a phone, and put it on your plan, and share with SS that this phone belongs to him - it is a gift to him - and that he is to take good care of it, and use it to call you guys when he wants, and that you want him to pick up when you call him, unless it's a bad time and then he can return the call... .  

Make it all about SS communicating with you guys.

When you say, "It will be gone in a New York minute" - do you mean he'll lose it, or that Mom will take it?

I wouldn't say ":)on't tell your mom about this."  He probably knows what is safe to share with her and what isn't.  She'll surely find out about it one way or another... .  

If she takes it, I think you need to confront her about that, and/or get a lawyer involved.  The phone may remain your husband's property, legally.

But if you can keep it all about SS, and not about Mom, then at 13 he should be able to manage a phone.

It will be "lost" as his current one always is... .  we don't believe it's always "lost", it's that she does not want him to communicate with us. So if he brings to her place a phone that we purchase, he will "lose it" and she will take no responsibility for it. He is forgetful, but she is not above "losing" his phone for him.

He is forgetful, but lately, not as much as he used to be. We aren't willing to "lose" a phone to play this game with her, and he obviously won't stand up to her about it yet. Nor will he say to SO, "I didn't lose it, mom took it."  He's too protective. So until he isn't, we aren't willing to try that.

How frustrating.

I like the "house" phone idea.

What usually happens when your SO calls her phone? Does she answer and cause issues?

We had this problem in the past.

XW demanded for DH to call the younger kids to her cell phone because the oldest one was the only one we provided a cell phone for(we provided cell phones for the two younger ones in the past but they were always lost or tuned off). PC instructed DH to call the 2 younger ones to XW cell phone everyday at a certain time.

DH complied and XW would answer and DH would just ask to talk to the children in a cold voice. Whenever she tries to engage him, he hung up.

After 2 weeks of this, XW emailed PC stating that the everyday phone call is causing problems to the younger children and for XH to call 3x/ week, instead of everyday. The PC did not even respond.

Now, XH calls all the children on the oldest cell phone.

My advise, have SO call STBXW on her cell phone and ask to talk to your step kids in a cold voice. If she tries to engage him, he needs to hang up.

The rejection is too painful for her to keep trying to engage him and will shy away from it.

He doesn't do it and isn't going to. He feels as if he shouldn't have to talk to her to speak to his son, and it's just another way for her to control their relationship and interaction. He believes (and I agree) that it's perfectly reasonable for him to send her an email and ask her to have SS call him... .  she has an iPhone and always answers emails right away... .  but she wants it her way.and she wants him to know that she is in control.

SS is 13, we only go 5 days without talking to him, and I think he'd rather go it that way, no contact. What he wants is spontaneous contact from SS (usually texting) that we used to get, not her controlling his access to his son. It only matters really on special occasions (yesterday was his b-day). And on those special occasions, she uses it as a tool to provoke him.

The communication pattern we've settled on over time - S14 and D16:

* They can call me any time, but they know to wait til after work hours unless it's urgent.

* They usually only call me to ask me to do something, like pick them up or bring something they forgot.

* When they're with their mom, once in a while they call for a lighter purpose, like wishing me a happy holiday.  But they don't just call to chat.

* If D16 is very upset about something, she may call to talk about it.  S14, not so much.

* I call them once in a while to check in, if I haven't seen them for a couple of days, but not much.

* I call them if there is a specific reason that won't wait.

What I'm getting at is that it's OK not to talk to the kids for a few days, if they know you're always there for them.

I would not tolerate the other parent making it impossible or too difficult for me to reach the child or the child to reach me.  Even if we don't talk every day, I want the kids to be able to reach me any time they want to, and to talk to me privately, without their mom being involved.  During the teen years, it's normal for a child to have a phone they are responsible for.

"Here is your phone.  Take care of it - don't lose it or drop it in water - but if you do lose it, let me know right away.  Don't give it to anybody else.  If your mom has rules about phone use - like not after bedtime or during meals - follow those rules."

Have you consulted a lawyer about this?

Sounds like it.


Those special days are tough. I try not to place too much value on them - but it still stings.

I get not feeding into the drama - and it really is too bad that it's the only option. It sounds like his priority is not to let her control the situation - or him - even though she's trying her darndest.

If he's OK not talking to his son, I think this might be the best solution.

I'm a big believer of letting the other just be a parent without too much interference in my own situation, I don't usually ever call my boys when they are at their dads. Especially now that they are 13 and 16 and don't really feel the need to talk to their mama anyways.  

 

The lawyers just say, "court-ordered phone time" which we don't want... .  another battle and way to engage and frustrating for a teenager. And how do we prove she's behind the "lost phone" and that his "not wanting to talk to his father" is really her disapproval driving it? Can't. Too much he said she said.

What about this - by e-mail, cc:ing your lawyer:

"I will be giving S13 a phone soon.  It will be his, but I'll emphasize he is to comply with school rules and with your rules when he's there, like if you say no calls after bedtime or whatever."

And see how she responds.  If she indicates "OK.", then maybe the gesture of reaching out to inform her will help her feel OK about it.  If she indicates "Not OK." then consider options like reminding her about the court-ordered phone contact and seeing what she proposes.

Cc:ing your lawyer will let her know this may lead to legal action if she doesn't play nice.

I find that this form - "I will do X." - works well most of the time.  Not a request for permission, but notice so that the other party has the opportunity to object if my plan will cause her a problem.  And knowing that if she responds inappropriately, there will be a record of that, can help keep the e-mails within bounds.

We could do that, and she would agree.

Then two weeks would go by and we would say, "Where is S13's phone?" And she would say he lost it. Or he lost the charger. Or SO would never hear back from him on that phone, and she would say, "I give him unfettered access to his phone, I can't help it if he doesn't want to reply to you, I can't make him do it. I'm doing what is reasonable." And he would be silent on this topic, he would not betray that she took it, or glares at him when he calls his father, or reads all of his messages and sighs heavily if she finds one from his father that he replied to.

She's not the outright refuse type. She's the agree but then don't do it with plausible deniability type.

I think this is a thing where SS will have to learn to stand up for himself in regard to contacting his father.

I know a lot of phones have a location feature if it IS lost.  You are going to have to work with SS on this one; he may not lose it if it is a "cool" phone.

It may take another year for him to get to that level of maturity... .  maybe talk with him about the options during a counseling session.

I don't think he does lose it... .  I think that's her excuse, at least 80% of the time, for why he doesn't have it at our place and why he never replies to SO's texts.

Is there enough trust between you, your husband and SS13, for a frank discussion about this?

"We'd like to give you a phone.  How do you think that will work?"

If SS says, "I can handle it.", great.

If he says, "I don't think Mom will let me keep it." - maybe that's just how it is for now.  Legal action, or live with it til he's ready to stand up to her.

SS will be motivated at some point, because every other kid will have a phone and he won't.  And he'll remember that you offered him one, as soon as he's ready to commit not to "lose" it.

That's our plan, tonight: to sit down with him and say, "we need to find a way to get in touch with you-what's the best way?" with one solution being we get him a phone on our plan in addition to the one she has on her plan. We've talked to him before about why he never replies to SO's texts, and he usually says, "I don't know," though once he said, "I didn't get it. Do you think Mom deleted it?"

The best solution may be for SO to contact him on his iPad. Both of them tend to avoid the difficult conversations and SS may not even realize that his father is trying and wants to contact him (which, by the way, he won't do often, he doesn't feel a need to check in every day or anything, just on occasion).

He will need to grow up some and stop letting her dictate his choices. That's going to be a little longer.

Careful what you ask for - you might get it... .  

Both my kids text me what they want from Wal-Mart every morning.  So when they get home - they imagine - there will be lots of snacks.  It doesn't work, but they keep trying.

We sat him down and asked how we could best get in touch with him when he's not with us, as his phone seems forever lost... .  he said, "though my mother."

We both said NO, (simultaneously, actually) we meant how do we get in touch directly with you. We discussed some kind of messenger program between his iPad and our Android phones. My SO let him know it bothered him that they never talk anymore.

He actually seemed to feel guilty. We both felt he was giving the party line about his "lost" phone and that he never texts his friends anymore either. I don't see it changing, but I'm hoping he will at least give some thought to how he's been complicit in allowing his mother to block/control his access to his father.

Just keep planting that seed... .  he will be thinking about it.  I would keep mentioning it so he doesn't forget, and maybe, just maybe, one day HE will be the one bringing it up to you.

tog, I like the way that you are helping in accountability. That's important.

I know that we often don't see eye to eye - please know that I really admire how much effort you put into helping your stepson become resilient when it comes to the fact that his mother is BPD.  She is going to forever be in this mode of making his dad the enemy, and her the hero and that is going to trickle down into his relationships with both of them. sanemom has it right in that we all have to lead by example, planting seeds, and hoping that they are able to flourish. My husband's philosophy has always been "you can learn as much from a bad example as you can a good one".

I am curious about him feeling guilty. What do you think that was about? That he was partaking in not talking to his Dad to make Mom happy?

Was the guilt from his Dad saying how much it bothered him?

I have s14 and d12. My stbxh called kids constantly. (he used to do that to me, it was part of his control issue). My passed attorney got the calls down to four a day.  h would then be on the phone two out of the four for half an hour each kid.  10 minutes at least each in the morning.  I stopped the long call one time. he told the GAL . The GAL wanted to know why I was cutting him off from the kids call. I told him but he didn't believe me. So I printed the phone records and brought with to the custody conference. The master told h that his calls were excessive and limited them to ten minutes each and 5 in the morning. of course H goes over the limit.

When the kids are with h' I don't have the need to constantly call and talk to kids. I tell kids one call is fine but they can call or text whenever they want to. then I get calls from them saying roboticly' "this is the morning call',"this is the afternoon call", this is the early evening call' ,this is the night call"  . they wont tell me but I know that is h making them do that so in return he can continue to make his calls to kids. I am glad to know, from this thread, that its not necessary to talk to the kids that much while they are in care of the other parent. I was running out of things to talk about so I would read some trivia. also h would have them call on the 'home' phone to check if I was home. and if I didn't answer it the kids would ask why I'm not answering it.

Only at the hearing a few months away can I change the amount of calls from h to kids. nice to know it doesn't even have to be everyday. but that will never happen on account he tells the kids to call him too.

s14 has a monthly plan cell phone. I just bought d12 a trac phone. the first weekend she had it while at her dads, it worked out great. I had more communication with her as she preferred text . it enough to know I was thinking of her. this past weekend her phone was always lost or misplaced. S14 would tell me that. I don't talk to kids on h's phone. But h texted me saying that D's phone keeps ringing and wants to know if its me. this after he texts me me telling me the kids are with mrs john doe (for the evening).

so how does he know the phone is ringing when at the same time  S is telling me the phone is lost.

My go-to subject - whether they're with me, or if not and I just want to check in with them - is, "What homework do you have that's due tomorrow?"  Get them talking about specific homework projects - how long they think it will take - which one they will do first, etc.

The reason is, first, it's something to talk about.  Second, it shows where my priorities are - not what's on TV or what clothes they want, but homework homework homework.

And finally, I hope it helps them organize their thoughts and recognize all they have to do before bed.  So they're less likely to watch TV or waste time online.  When they say out loud all the stuff they need to get done, I think they recognize that it's a lot, and they better get to work and stay focused til it's done.

It's a miracle! The lost phone has appeared. 

|iiii

I have a different perspective on the phone thing.  We have endless phone drama.  The worst thing is that BPD mom is so petty and unreasonable that the court actually  cannot understand the issue. 

But taking BPD mom out of the picture for the moment, what is it like for the kids?  For our kids, I notice that transitions are very stressful.  This is often true when alienation is present.  For SD12, when she was younger she just had one self at mom's, one at dads, and she would be paralyzed and in shock when her little sister, SD8, would bring up something that ruptured the hermetically sealed selves.  For SD8, she has a coherent sense of self mostly, and knows she loves all her parents, but that it is really hard to miss her mom or us when she is at the other house, and talking to the other person makes it worse, so she does not want to talk on the phone to the other home.  My sense is that talking on the phone is like a transition, in that the kids have to suddenly change who they are.  Because of the conflict, they seem happier without the contact.  At our home, when SD8 misses her mom (which was never until she turned 8), we offer the option of calling, making a card for her mom, making a present, writing a song.  She mostly will ask to call, because this is a big issue for mom, but then will choose to make a card. 

I know that phone contact is helpful in maintaining a bond when you have long periods of separation from a young child, but as the kids have grown older, phone contact between the homes seems stressful.

What seems to happen for us is that when the kids get to mom's, they know that any mention of us will cause mom to become upset, and they have learned that a happy time at mom's means not upsetting her.  So they did not call.  They felt guilty about this, but afraid of mom's rages. 

Then, when they are at our home, the do not want to call her.  But they return to mom, and she asks, "Why didn't you call?" and rather than say, "I was busy," risking angering her, they say, "We were not allowed!" which aligns mom with them, though against us. 

Here is our situation and what we have done about it:

The kids almost never call us from mom's house--twice in 6 years.  But, like you, they miraculously call when on vacations.  If DH tries to call, mom hijacks and talks to him for hours.  There is no way to have direct communication with the kids. 

At our house, the kids rarely want to call mom, but we do suggest it if they have something important happen or if they miss her, which is rare.  In the past, we let them call pretty much whenever they wanted, which was not often. 

Mom almost never called the kids; the only times she would call were when she was about to file a snaky custody motion and report some false accusation, and then she would call and tell the kids to keep this stuff secret, which was totally destructive.

During the custody case, mom got on this kick of telling others including mediators that we would not let the kids call her.  This caused the kids to tell us we would not let them call mommy only when they were very upset with us, such as when they had to do homework.  This would be the last stop they would pull out when they wanted to avoid something ("I want to call my mommy!  You have to let me!".  We made the decision to deal with this by saying, "And after you finish your homework, you may certainly call your mom."  Which of course became in mom's eyes that we were, sure enough, not letting the kids call.  Ironically, this was never an issue before she made it one... .  they rarely called, we always let them. 

So this became a big issue in the custody case, which is so absurd as the kids NEVER call from her house, and call from our home to her about once a month before she made it an issue, and 2-3 times a week after.  So the parenting plan indicates that the kids can call the other parent WHENEVER they want, "within reason." 

But the kids still never want to call.  So BPD mom took the signed, court ordered parenting plan back to court, over this ridiculous phone call issue.  And the court ordered calls to happen at 3 on sunday, with the custodial home initiating the call.  So every sunday the kids are with us, they call their mom at 3 or before if they will be at a birthday party or whatever.  And on about 3 sundays in the last 10 months since the order, the kids have called here, mostly at around 5pm or later.  And despite the fact that mom almost never follows the order, and dad almost ALWAYs follows it to a T, at their last mediation about another issue, BPDmom again alleged that the kids never are allowed to call her when they are with us.  What is even more frustrating is that the calls are almost always used to "plot" against dad, to make plans to exclude him from some school event or something SD12 wanted to do with dad, that mom convinces her she should ONLY do with mom. 

SO HERE IS WHAT WE DO: Make the kids call mom on time, and accept that the kids rarely call us.  And this is actually the first thing that has resulted in the kids calling.  After 5 months of us getting the kids to call every single sunday on time... .  drum roll please... .  SD12 just started calling us! On sundays.  About one in 3.  And it has been really great.  SD12 really likes to talk with us.  So does SD8. 

But the kids consider it their responsibility, it is entirely from them.  They just got the habit eventually. 

We also have a big issue with SD12's ipad, which mom gave her.  One down. 

Yes. That's why my SO has avoided the "court ordered phone time" that the lawyers have all proposed. All we can picture is her calling every night he's here right on the dime and getting upset if she doesn't speak to him immediately, and then SO calling on his days and getting bupkis, or a phone call 8 hours later, or whatever.

He's 13. SO doesn't want or need to speak to him every day. What he wants is to be able to wish him a happy birthday, or ask how his exams went or *gasp* get a spontaneous phone call or text from him every now and again without having to clear it with "the boss".

Pipe dreams.

We are pretty sure she texts, or calls or IMs him every day or multiple times a day. We don't monitor it, it's his business. She used to hound him with texts and calls and he's admitted that's much better now. We won't pursue it... .  we just want him to think about whether it's reasonable for his mother to get upset if he speaks to his father, and make decisions accordingly.

We also have to be careful not to "shame" the kiddos either in order for them to take a stand against the alienating parent.

Children of BPD parents struggle profoundly when it comes guilt and shame - we want to help in that.

Not make it worse. 

Where do you see shaming in anything I have said? We haven't even spoken of it to him again.  Perhaps I misread your tone, but these are times I feel very misunderstood and it happens over and over... .  

tog

I have 3SS (8,10, 15) who have BPD mom and 2DD with BPD dadExH.

My DD then 10 and 7 now 16 and 13 used their phone to call me in emergency once with dad who was acting erratic and I was able to come get them.

Now my DD text and call and live on their phones. They also never see BPD dad due to court order and NC that they wanted.

My SS now 15 has a phone and uses it only when needed. he just does not like the phone thar much. He texts more on vacation. we gave him phone when 10 so he could call in emergencies.  My SS now live with us all year and go with BPDmom for weekends and part of the summer. They used to go back and forth.2 summers ago he sent me a pic of a water pipe at his mom's BF parents house and asked what it was... .  Oh lord I was just so worried he was somewhere possibly unsafe and also he would get caught texting with me by his mom. Brave kids.

All I can add here is that I think the phone should be in SS possession at least. I agree that he is too old to force a call but he should at least turn it on once a day.

Interesting thread.

Good discussion!  (And it's an issue a whole lot of us face.)

Seems like there are some common things we're learning that seem to kinda-sorta work best:

* We'd like to talk to the kids regularly, but older kids can probably make these choices for themselves, and they usually don't see the need for daily talks with the parent they're not with.

* Pretty often, they won't stand up to the parent who is controlling their communication, at least not for a while.

* Court orders don't necessarily fix these phone issues, and sometimes make them worse.

* Trying to force these issues can put stress on the kids.

Good summary?

Or any others I didn't pick up?

I'm sorry you feel misunderstood - I asked you about your stepson feeling guilty in this scenario:


I think it's a fine line to walk. Your SS is caught in a loyalty bind (very normal in these situations). Your SO said it bothered him that he couldn't talk to him but isn't willing to call his Mama (totally understandable; calling mom = drama).  That leaves the burden on kiddo to be accessible.  

I do think it should be up to him. I also think it's good to say "I like talking to you, please know that you can call me anytime you want. I love when you call!"

If you say, "It bothers me when you don't call or return my call" (I don't even know that it's what he said) then it becomes about the parent being able to talk to him - not the other way around.

I think it's important to remember this is extremely stressful on these kids and they don't see the other parent like we do; they love their Mama and don't want to disappoint either parent.  

I'm not saying you shamed him (I wasn't there) - I'm just saying you need to be careful, we all do. I often have to go against every instinct I have in my parenting skills when it comes to my stepkids. They deal with a very different set of issues that need to be taken into account. 


Excellent summary.  |iiii

I think you are confusing shame and guilt.

Guilt can be a healthy emotion, one that makes us regulate our own behavior-if we feel guilty about something, we are less likely to do it again. Guilt is feeling bad about what we DID. Shame, on the other hand, is feeling bad about who you ARE at your core. Not healthy.

SS does not feel enough guilt about lying. He does it easily and without compunction. He has told lies that have gotten my SO in significant legal hot water, in order to please his mother. On the other hand, he feels guilty if he loves his father, because it displeases his mother.  So he has a confused notion of guilt. Once we started pointing out how his lying and colluding with his mother hurt his father (which I don't think he considered), he began coming out of the alienation. Before then, "taking the high road" protected him from the guilt that was necessary to start looking at things realistically.

I think he SHOULD feel guilty for how he treats his father. Lack of guilt is the hallmark of an alienated child and it's very unhealthy. It's rude not to return someone's phone calls and it's wrong to tell lies that get someone in trouble just to please someone else and save your own hide. If he doesn't learn that, he is in for a world of hurt in all of his relationships, as well as a lot of SHAME about who he is.

My SO holding him accountable for failing to return phone calls is not shaming him, unless he says he is a bad person for doing so, which he doesn't. What he said was, "I left you some text messages this week," and SS said, "Sorry, Dad," and seemed to feel guilty. If he had truly just lost his phone, why would he feel guilty? Because he's colluding in something with his mother that he knows is wrong.

We can't protect these kids from the guilt they feel, but we can help them know when the guilt is healthy and when it isn't. And never holding them accountable won't teach that. If we feel sorry for them because their mothers put them in loyalty binds, then we can't help them come out of them.

JMHO.

Let me make a suggestion:  Start a thread around exactly these issues - SS lying, treating his father badly, compromising his own ethics in order to placate his mom.

The reason I'm suggesting this is that the phone issue - which most of us deal with - is one thing.  But these behaviors you're describing here - lying etc. - aren't really about the phone per se.  I bet there are other situations where these same behaviors happen, that have nothing to do with the phone.

So I'm thinking maybe you could focus a thread around SS's behaviors - and interactions with both parents - and maybe that thread would shed some light that this "phone stuff" thread hasn't... .  

I can do that... .  but this is about the phone. He lies and says he lost his phone when what we believe is happening is that he isn't allowed to call or text my SO lest he get his mother's displeasure. So in our case, it's more about his lying to protect/please her than it is about concrete details about phones and court orders.

As soon as he feels strong enough to stand up to her, I have no doubt he will once again spontaneous text my SO (and me) to tell us stuff that's going on in his life.

It's about the phone.

It's about Mom.

It's about Dad.

It's about you.

Mostly it's about your stepson.

Sometimes we can look at the same issue from different angles, and see it differently.

So it's perfectly valid to ask, "How can we deal with these #$%&ing phone issues?"

It's also perfectly valid to ask, "How can we help SS develop a stronger character - be more honest - in the face of pressures from a disordered parent?"

I think that you're assessment of guilt and shame are pretty spot on.

Shame is also a verb, and it's a tool that a BPDparent uses quite effectively on the kids, usually in resulting in the child feeling ashamed/guilty (i.e. for not calling her or for *gasp* calling the other parent).  Don't you love me enough to call? If you love me, why are you calling Dad?

I see your SO's point of view - absolutely. His son is letting his mom take over his life. He also does not posess the skill set (yet) to differentiate who/what is healthy.

Healthy levels of guilt are absolutely integral to learning accountability.

Just like everything else, the effects of his mother's parenting has placed your stepson in an inherently different bracket of development - and probably helps explain the other behavior (lying, disorganization, loss of sense of self).

Here's a good article that discusses this: https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a108.htm

I don't think what you did was "wrong''... .  and it worked. I just see an aspect and hope that you can be mindful of it. Shame/Guilt are very toxic to these kids with BPDparents. I'm also a big believer, like in your case, that you/we (as the healthy parents) are what is going to help them in reducing the risks.  Asking questions is good - and you did that - to help them verbalize what may be going on.

I just saw the "he felt guilty" and it's dear to my heart - my middle stepdaughters guilt/shame manifested itself into a pretty severe depression.  

tog

I've spent the past year with a behavior therapist coming to my house a few times a month to work specifically with SS 8 and 10 and also with all my kids for chores. so I've learned a lot in implementing and in reading and its a very fascinating aspect of parenting. It works but you need consistency, structure, and rewards.

So in this case i also think a behavior therapy hat is needed.

Look at it as a behavior you want to correct using a reward.

SS needs to check in every day now that he is 13.

Teens needs to check in every day. Soon it will be that he will be with teen friends and all behaviors described above are going to impact soon enough with friends and teen risk taking stuff.

A possible scenario for a 13 yo is $10 a week at start. Every day of 5 day off with mom that he fails to check in he loses $2. When he sees you he gets the cash.

I can't say if it will work but my kids all are motivated by cash and eventually it becomes habit. When it does, add in something else you need to fix to up the ante.

Good luck with this.

Thanks. I think my SO prefers the path of least resistance... .  just allowing this to work itself out if it will. Any plan like that would most certainly become fodder for a court filing that my SO is "bribing" and "extorting" SS to call him and should allow it to be his choice.

I don't blame him. I too am tired of her condescending and abusive emails and if it means he doesn't talk to his son for 5 days, that's the price of a little peace.

Does the amount of calls or length of calls make any difference when the kids visit/talk to the GAL?

i.e., dad calls all the time for long times which in the GAL would view him as the "better" parent.

Whirpooloflife

In my case the GAL saw right through BPD dad. I had a GAL appointed 4 years afrer divorce when I filed a motion to have visitation suspended or supervised due to abuse and threats of my then DD9 and 11.

I took text messages he had sent my DD and photographed them out of her phone and xeroxed them to 8.5 x11 size and showed them to her.

I don't know details of your case but I think a good GAL would listen to the story and understand the issues with the phone.

The GAL doesn't care. BPDmom is very good at making herself look blameless and just always insists that SS doesn't want to call his father. She does give him free access to the phone, she has just made clear to him that it upsets her if he talks to his father without her permission, and he won't tell anyone that, he's too protective of her. She's so good at creating noise that no one has the energy to sort through and see the truth.

All they will do is put in some clause in the order such as "each parent will speak to the child at 7 pm on the days he isn't with them," which will just be one more way for her to engage and control everything. She will call at 6:59 and make a huge production if he isn't available right away and then she will never be available when SO calls.  It will become another way to annoy/obstruct and we would like to minimize her opportunities for that.

As soon as kids are home from school, that's one of h's  calls.  One day we stayed outside.  Text from h, where are you why aren't kids picking up the phone, no answer from anyone etc. Then "are you ok?".    Sounds like he concerned? No its to cover up his fit of control that no one paid attention to.  All this in less than half an hour.

The GAL is bias toward dads, and h, unfortunatley, only because he's not an absentee dad.

I go to another area of house when kids are on phone with h because I get anxious listening to the , "yes, no, don't know , tell you later,uhhuh " converstion. I don't ask kids afterwards what was said. And go on from there for a couple hours till h calls again. Repeat.

 BPD mom insists on the kids being alone when they speak with her when at our home, which is a little tricky in the winter, as we have a small home.  The kids share a room, at least until next year, and the only rooms with closing doors in our home are the kids' and our bedrooms.  So if one child is in the room, there is not absolute privacy.  Mom INSISTS on absolute privacy.  But when the kids call from her home, she insists on speaker phone... .  in the past, the kids always used speaker phone, as it is easier for younger kids to hear and talk that way, and you could hear BPD mom saying, "Are they listening in?  Hide! They are trying to spy!  :)o not let them hear what you are saying!" This to a 3 or 7 year old who really could care less about all the cloak and dagger stuff, and who totally trusts us... .  but over the years, at least SD12 has bought into the idea that she needs total privacy with mom, and because mom does tell her "secrets" that she is told she cannot tell us, she probably does need privacy! LOL.   BPD mom brings this up over and over again--so we give the kids privacy, and then she will tell court mediators that the kids have to sneak out of the house at night to call her... .  when the reality is that they are free to call her if they are not trying to get out of homework or are in the middle of dinner, but because she tells them they must have TOTAL privacy, SD12 insists on calling outside where nobody can hear her.  It really is the height of absurdity, and we do nothing to address all of this.  

SS13 just talks to her whenever and however he pleases. All seems to be on iMessage on his iPad nowadays. Who cares? Yet, he isn't allowed to speak to us at all unless it's through her and she approves (ie, it makes her look good, such as when they are on vacation).

Must be sad to be so insecure about your relationship with your children.