BPDFamily.com

A calibration from the group here.  And this has nothing to do with BPD per se, its just a parenting question:

My wife makes our children clean their own rooms.  S8 does great.  He has less stuff (especially clothes) and more space since he has his own room.  My D6 and D4 share a room.  They have a LOT of clothes and toys and really their room is a reflection of the rest of the house (my wife is a borderline hoarder - I have given up on this and just segregate parts of the house which I use and avoid the rest)

My D6 doesnt do that great at cleaning.  She avoids it.  And this upsets my wife.  One thing she has a habit of doing is hiding her clothes (tucking them beside the bed, other corners, etc) instead of putting them in the drawers.  Yesterday they cleaned up and then later that evening at bedtime my wife found some clothes 'hidden'.  So she is throwing them out.

This is a common tool that she uses - any time the kids leave something out, dont put it away, etc... .  it gets thrown away.  Usually with a lecture like 'you must not like these toys because you dont put them away and take care of them, so we can get rid of them then'.  (it personally bothers me how she puts words in their mouth).  Its meant to instill fear - and to be fair at the root of it I personally dont like fear based motivational tactics - so a major difference in values/styles between us.

D6 is very upset over this because it was her favorite clothes.  She came down and cried for about 30mins, and then I went up and layed with her for a while before she could get calm enough to sleep.

I need some calibration (because I have nothing to go on for whats 'normal'.  On the one had I am fine supporting my wife that the kids should pick up their room.  The the other hand, its pretty dang overwhelming and Im not sure I could do it myself (my wife can do it, but she is the only one - but she is the one that keeps adding stuff).  My daughter is only 6 - I like to cut her some slack.  And also I am going to try to learn from her more about 'why' she hides the clothes (could be she just doesnt want to put them away - or maybe she doesnt know where because no room in the drawers - or maybe they are her favorites and she wants a special place for them)

Any discussion with my wife in any way triggers her and in effect is a critique of her parenting style.

Any thoughts?

I didnt 'overrule' my wife (that isnt really possible).  I empathized with my D6 and hugged and and told her I loved her.  She asked if I thought mom would throw them away and I stated that its very possible (D6 art easel and paints were thrown out the week prior, one of her favorite things to do)

But here I was laying in bed with D6, discussing how to manage around mom.  This has been happening more and more with D8 lately, a lot of discussion on what to do when 'mom gets upset' (he had come out to the workshop earlier because mom was upset so he just cleared out... .  thats my usual advice)

(I posted this on staying and not parenting, because its about parenting while 'staying' - very different than parenting after leaving)

I don't have much to say other than I really like your ideas about working to understand why your daughter is hiding her clothes and going at it from that angle.  Also, the empathy is great and likely helps your daughter a lot.  I came from a single parent household where noone ever really asked me how I was feeling, and that in itself has caused some relational problems and issues identifying and resolving my own emotions.  You are doing a great thing by being there for your daughter and comforting her, but also being honest with her (telling her that it's very possible her mom would throw the clothes out) and not over-promising or minimizing to try to soothe her feelings.

I agree with you about the Parenting board, and with my own DS growing up - I will need a good place to go to check myself as well.  I'm interested to see what others have to say in response to you!

 Man I'm just on a roll today!

I say that because everything seems to relate to what I've been through this past weekend.

All getting back on topic, we have a seven-year-old that is very sloppy. Things come out and they rarely go away. Occasionally I read the riot act and it goes like this: anything that doesn't get put away is going to get tossed. So put your stuff away now. I haven't really thrown many things away, because normally things at that point will get put away by either seven-year-old or mama. During the day when I'm alone I will toss things here and there but normally they are not of worth. I will however take things that are in the living room kitchen or dining area and tossed them into her room( the seven-year-old). This way they are at least out of view. I can't say that our houses very picked up to begin with, and a lot of it is my fault for sure. I try to teach good habits, but I know that seeing is believing and visually... .  well let's say this place has been on the cover of Hiroshima weekly. I used to be a very neat and organized person, but I realize that there's only one of me and at least two of them. On another note, we have to not sweat the small stuff... .  And I know that is so very hard to do.

One tiny bit of advice, or rather a recommendation, ask mama, even though she says that she will throw it out, can she just put it in a plastic bag that will get hidden away in the garage. That might save some money and heartache in the long run. Just my two cents. Good luck.

omg ((Yeeter)) your wife is emotionally abusing those little ones; 4 and 6 years olda (imho) ARE NOT old enough to "snap into shape" with such DIRE consequences of throwing a toy OUT if it is left out once. red-flag

Did she ever "walk through" cleaning with them? I used to make a game of it with my 11 yr. son and now he and I "clean" his room about every 6 months but he keeps things in order, makes his bed, puts dirty clothes and laundry and brings them down for me to wash, etc.

I am just SHOCKED that she "gets on" your littles ones like this... .  no compassion,  red-flag she was probably treated this way as a child; wait a minute... .  isn't your wife a HOADER? She doesn't demand it of herself but demands SPOTLESSNESS from a 4 and 6 year old?

Have you or someone else who has seen her threaten the children this way EVER ASK HER... .  "How would YOU feel if you didn't PUT YOUR THINGS WHERE THEY BELONG and they said that they would THROW IT ALL IN THE TRASH?".

She should treat her children AS SHE WOULD LIKE TO BE TREATED... .  if not, maybe she needs a "dose of her own medicine"... .  imho.

I am sorry that your little ones have to deal with this but YOU ARE THE DADDY... .  it is YOUR HOUSE TOO (isn't it?).

PLEASE take care of them or GET THEM OUT of that house and move them into a place without a demanding BPD mother... .  

btw: I think it has EVERYTHING to do with HER BPD... .  please don't let this continue. (sorry, this angers me that you and the children have to live like this)... .  

Hi yeeter,

I really commend you for staying with your family, despite your wifes problem. Staying for the Children. I know many say its not good, but in the case of BPD maybe it is better for the kids at least! I hope you find alternative support.

Regarding your wifes punishment. My husband used to threaten this with my kids. Hed step on a toy or something get mad and say he's going to throw them away if he finds them not put away. He did a couple of times, but I always thought it was drastic. He said his father did this. He's perfectly normal. He had a great mom and his dad was pretty great as well, but a bit strick with 6 kids around I suppose he had to be. Throwing the stuff away seems drastic, because one, kids make mistakes. And two, who can afford to throw their stuff away and maybe have to buy new all the time. I would talk to your wife. Not infront of the kids and ask if she could modify it some. Ask if she could say, if I find your stuff not put away, I am going to lock it away somewhere for a few weeks or until the child can show improvement in putting their stuff away properly. If they show improvement, then they can have their thing back. Postive reinforcement.

   Co-parenting with a pwBPD is so hard!  I agree with some of the other posters that throwing things away may be too harsh, especially if these are a child's favorite things.  With my uBPDh, when our S4 doesn't listen to him, it gets him really upset because he feels like he's not being respected.  Maybe if you could validate that feeling in your wife and emphasize the things your children do that show that they respect her?

I think parenting is a personal choice, but for me, taking things away for a period of time (1 hour, 2 hours, up to 1 day) if they are being used in a hurtful or negative way seems to produce the best results.  I don't expect my S4 to be an expert at cleaning.  He's far from it.  I try to make it a game or give an incentive like a reward if he cleans up.  It can be something small because kids are easily pleased - a little treat or an outing that you were planning to take anyway.  What I've been meaning to try is a points system I've heard about from other parents.  The child gets points for doing good things and points taken away for not behaving well.  If they get up to a certain amount of points, they get some sort of prize.  You keep track of it on a board so they can check their progress. 

I acknowledge that all of these options would be a lot easier to implement if we didn't have to gain our pwBPD's approval, but maybe your wife would agree to a trial period of a reward system after some validation?

  Daylily

I have similar problems with my BPD partner and the children.

I have started to talk to the kids how its not acceptable behaviour and how daddy is working really hard to change. When he is unregulated I get them to clear out (I need a better strategy with this) or I sit in the room with them and play games etc.

But tonight I couldn't bite my tongue. At bed time BPDso walked out of the room without giving DD10 a kiss goodnight. She pointed it out and BPDso said 'you are mucking up, why do you deserve it' ... .  I said hey no, you don't punish by threat of rewarding affection, that's not on. He kissed her and walked out.

I know I will cop it from him soon, however that is not on. I needed the kids to see that is not an appropiate way to handle situations when u r upset. I needed to also put their feelings and needs above his (for a change). and I just had enough of him removing love/affection from me and the kids as a punishment.

I really need to see someone who knows about BPD family dynamics and ways I can counter this type of abuse.

I have some ideas to help you, however if you fell that any conversation with her would critique her parenting, than most strategies would be difficult.

What about if you validated her feelings about how it upsets her and then maybe talk about doing a clean out of the room? If there is less things, then less to mess and easier to clean up?

Do you think while u r tucking them into bed you could do a reward system for sticker chart with them, and get them to do a 10 minute cleaning blitz? That would lesson how messy it is.

Or make it into a cleaning game with them.

Unfortunately if talking to your wife won't be productive, then maybe doing it yourself with them for 10 mins a night might be a way around it?

Yeeter,

I would say this isn't really a "simple parenting" question.  Nothing is very simple when BPD is involved.  The BPD makes it all so very complicated.  This is evident in the fact that you and your wife can't effectively co-parent right now because of the BPD.  You are in essence not able to discuss her techniques because it will "trigger her" or come across as criticism.  While this might be true in other relationships, the BPD makes the fall out that much bigger.  

I don't know if I would consider what she is doing as abuse, especially if the kids know Mom will throw the things away if they leave it out.  However, if this is done without any warning and Mom just goes off the deep end and throws things away without any warning whatsoever, that is not fair to kids this young, or for any age, really. So that crosses a line.  And her "putting words in their mouths" is not fair either and does seem to be fear based which isn't fair either.  

Now, I know you said you can't really "overrule" her, but why not?  They are your kids, too.  It isn't fair for her to get to do whatever she wants and you and the kids just have to take it.  Can you decide how you would like to handle the situation and then inform your wife, not in front of the kids, that x and y aren't going to happen anymore and instead you two are going to do a and b?  For example, could you tell your wife you do not agree that perfectly wearable clothing and usable items will go in the trash can if left out.  Instead, you will put them in a "buy back" bin and they will stay in the bin for a determined amount of time, or the child can do something around the house to earn them back.  I am a big believer in "natural consequences" which I think kids learn the most from.  But what she is doing just doesn't make much sense.  It is costing you guys money and the kids are only learning to fear Mom, but not to appreciate their things or keep their rooms tidier.

I understand there will likely be fall out from this approach, too, but otherwise it seems like you and the kids are just still "walking around on eggshells" not to trigger your wife.  I think you consoling your child was appropriate, but it seems like you guys are just finding ways to appease her so that there is no fall out and it's all left for you to deal with.  Now, I know this is how it is a lot of the time with a BPD partner, but it's not fair and it's not something that should become fully entrenched in how you and your kids operate.

My mindset in regards to my uBPDh is pretty much that I don't consider him in the equation.  For example, if this had happened in my house and I disagreed with what he had done, I would make sure he didn't get the chance to do it again.  Maybe I wouldn't confront this episode because the fall out might be huge, but I would ensure that he couldn't do that again.  I would institute a new way to handle it and tell the kids and tell him that's how it was going to be.  Then when it came up again, I would say, well... .  this is what we do now.  

One last thing, I don't agree that you should get a divorce over such things.  I think you can do more good being in the house with the kids and your wife.  Can you imagine if you weren't there and your wife had custody most of the time?  That could be scary! So keep on, but stand up for your kiddos! (NOT to say that you don't  )

Yes, yes I realize this might not be a very popular approach, but I really feel this is the best approach for living and parenting with a partner with BPD.  

My wife has done similar things, and has unilaterally imposed punishments that reflect anger more than teaching.  Power in the house abhors a vaccuum.  I have tried, with some success, trying to get ahead of my wife on some of these punishment issues by simply stating the house rule and consequence.

Take the toy situation.  If you see the kids have left toys all over the floor, summon them all to the room.  Tell them that the price for not picking up toys is losing them for a week (or whatever you think is appropriate).  Then proceed to impose that consequence for all to see. You just do it. 

A lot of times my wife follows my lead and we reset the issue a bit.  Other times shes says I'm too easy on them and not supportive of her, etc.  A lot of this happens when I'm not home too.  Tricky stuff. 

Thanks for all the replies and insights - tricky stuff indeed.

I came about it from a different angle.  Used my sons observation where he shared that he thought D6 was doing this because they were her favorite clothes, and didnt want them to go into the laundry (so she could wear them more often).  I just shared this part with my wife to get a dialog started.

She didnt think this was the case (and I agree with her on it not being the case), and felt it was just my D6 not wanting to do it.  I probed some more on 'why' she might not want to do it (again trying to walk my wife through some empathy of being in D6 shoes - is it because its too hard?  just wants to play?  doesnt know how?  just taking a stance and making a statement?).  I find this helps a lot because empathy or seeing the other persons point of view is not the strong suit for a uNPD/uBPD type.

And as clarification - there WAS warning given so its not at random - D6 was told the consequence.

Then yesterday D6 disappeared for a little while and I went up to check on her and she was putting away the clothes.  She stated that she was 'earning back' her clothes.  So mom gave her a chance to earn them back - which sounds great and effective parenting.  Just the initial threat was that it was a done deal and they were gone.

This one worked out fine.  Its a balance between direct confrontation, third party triangulation, getting ahead of the situation, and avoidance to keep the peace.  A combination of all of these are used at different times depending on what we think might have the best chance for the situation.

A reality check is helpful (because again who is to say what is 'normal'.  And sure it would be GREAT if we could discuss these type of concerns directly but if I make it an issue between my wife and myself, then she will dig in to make a point and the children will suffer.  So usually better to work indirectly to a middle ground.

Tricky (at least for me it is... .  )

But its exactly the type of situation where I feel my children are better off by my being involved in their life on a day to day basis.