BPDFamily.com

A little update, I guess.

Things with BPD have been mostly calm.

Except he has informed me that the bad stuff was 2012 and I ( and we) are to leave those problems behind in 2012 and not carry them forward to 2013.

So as long as I act like nothing from the past effects me, then he is calm and kind and loving. However he has persisted in the gaming. His situation in game has shifted and he could totally be away from internet woman but he is choosing to get closer and entrench himself further in it.

As long as I say nothing about it, he is happy.

However, I am still hurting. I still feel disregarded. He knows I feel hurt by his actions.

I don't really know what to "do".

Really, I am in pain. I realize on a philosophical level that my resistence to this is what is causing hurt, and I try very hard to get around those feelings, but honestly this is killing my love for him.

I get detached and distance myself due to the pain and with it goes the feelings of love and hope and wanting to be close to him.

Is he doing bad things with internet woman? I don't think so.

What I actually am feeling awful about is that he knows how it effects me, he knows it hurts me, triggers me... .  and he actually apologized for it last week and was all hugs and kisses... .  but he is still doing it as much as he possibly can.

Why? 

When I mentioned it to him, he got really defensive and immediately jumped all over me for being insulting and threatening to him. He said he was going to pull up emails and chat logs to show how bad I was if I couldn't recall it.

He said "girl who actually cares should stop insulting and threatening me."

I haven't had a cross word at this guy for a month. Until today I guess. Even then I disengaged when it started to escalate and I really don't know what to say. I am sorry, maybe it seems like I haven't learned anything here, but I feel like I just got kicked in the teeth.

We can only have a relationship if I never let it show that he has hurt me and make sure he knows he never has to address it or change his actions or anything else?

Really?

What is my boundry? I don't even know. I am confused:

He is offering opportunity to start again under condition all is left in the past and he does as he likes... .  

or hostilities begin again if I show any pain or hurt or want him still to stop doing those things.

What do I do with my pain? I am still in pain. I don't want to hurt anyone else. Is this pain continuing because I haven't forgiven him?

hi, Ive been wondering how you were 

To me? this isn't a healthy relationship.  In a good relationship we should be able to express our feelings even if the other person does not want to hear them.  How we handle the conversation is of course on us!  He can't dictate your feelings, or what you decide to leave in 2012.  Unexpressed hurt will continue to fester, he should at least be able to listen, even if he disagrees.  Id stay quiet and let some more time pass,, but again, that is just me.

Im sorry you are hurting still, it does take a fair amount of time to come out on the other side.

CiF

I don't know what my goal is here anymore.

:'(

Your goal is to take care of YOU, and to do that one, single day at a time.

TRY and not let him control you and how you feel about all of life from wherever he is at this time.

I know how hard this is, I know how your chest feels like it has a gaping, wind sucking hole in it... .  

One day, right now, it's all any of us have.

 

CiF

He hasn't changed or asked for any forgiveness.  Your boundaries and his are clashing.  He is basically saying to you, "get over this, and we'll get along just fine."  

We make changes and compromises, large and small, all the time to make a relationship work.  There are, or at least should be, some limits to how much we will compromise for any relationship.  When we start to compromise these things, we feel deep emotional pain.  

My wife had an internet "friend" too.  It happened to be her former fiance, who broke up with her about 2-3 years before I met her.  After many, many years of no contact, he reached out to her.   And they re-connected.  At first she was honest with me about "staying in touch" with him.  He kept pressuring her for more than "friendship" and she told me she cut off communications with him.  The truth was, she fairly quickly just started to hide the texts, phone calls, and later facebook messages. Although I am certain she has not seen this guy, and has mostly talked about innocent topics, it just wasn't something I could live with.  He had made it clear, several times, that he wanted more, wanted to meet up, etc.--and she kept playing this game with him.  I didn't see an innocent ending.

After catching her communicating with him secretly for the third or fourth time, I gave her an ultimatum.  I would leave if this continued.  I understood if she thought that was unfair, or "controlling," but that's where I honestly was (and am).  

I then left it up to her.  I let it go. I stopped snooping and checking up on her.  She's an adult and can make her own choices, and live with the consequences.  My position was clear, I had communicated my boundaries.  That's all I could do.  I generally don't like giving ultimatums.  In my 18 year marriage, I don't think I've ever had to give another one (not even the standard "get therapy, or I'll leave."  

Sometimes, when all else fails, all you can do is lay it out there.  Hey, I can't live with . . . .  

He feels that he has been badly injured by my upset at him and that he is trying to put it in the past.

So when he saw me sad, remarked on it and I made the mistake of saying what I felt, he immediately smacked me for having lashed out at him for his cheating, the baby, and all the other things I reacted on.

Specifically he feels I was insulting to him with my angry words. I was insulting. I called him a cheater, a liar, smacked him around and used 4 letter words.

So basically I stopped reacting that way, he is still doing what he wants... .  and if I show anything other than a smile ... then he is very condemning, implies my "second chance" won't be there anymore, and walks out again after telling me "I wake up with many sad things in mind. I don’t drop them on your head though".

I said "ok" and out the door he walked.

I just didn't have enough of anything left in me to try and reassure and validate and make him feel all better.

I just don't.

I feel totally empty and the thought of trying to sort him out over his bad feelings about me being sad over his continued actions ... .  how can I?

I guess the idea of being on this forum is to make it better, but I guess I am just not wrapping my brain around how someone can do those things and then demand or expect or base a continued relationship on wether or not you show any anxiety or pain about it all.

So many normal "shoulds" don't even get to apply here.

I don't have any ultimatums. If he thinks one is there he will immediately make sure he does exactly what is being asked not to do.

the only choice I have if I dont want conflict and I dont want to go against my own feelings is simply to sit with those feelings and not have contact.

I don't think he loves me anymore.

He did say he knows it triggers bad feelings for me and he is sorry.

But he is still doing it.

So I think he is sorry I am upset, but feels it really has nothing to do with his actions because from his perspective he is not doing anything "wrong".

Maybe Cardinals is right about the time thing.

Sorry you're going through this elemental.

What we all need to understand and come to grips with is, yes they love us, as long as they can control us.  When we stand up for ourselves and push our much-needed boundaries, then they "punish" us by splitting us because we aren't following their script.

My BPDgf, when constantly confronted with my wounded heart and emotions over what she has done, states "I'm tired of dealing with your hurt emotions all the time. Get over it!  Don't constantly bring it up and we'll be fine!"  I realize now that its triggering for her to have to face my emotions and deal with the result of her actions.  She knows they are wrong, but won't learn from them because she CAN'T apologize sincerely for them.  She can't even face her own demons so how could she (or your guy in this case) deal with the bad things they've put on you?

Cardinals in Flight I believe gave you a sound piece of advice... .  make this situation about YOU.  What YOU need.  What YOU want to do from here on.  Can YOU deal with this anymore?  Do YOU want to be the one carrying the emotional strength of the relationship at all times?  Because as it stands now, he'll never apologize.  He'll never quit the game (another addiction for him) and he'll never be there for you emotionally.  Those are my opinions.

I don't want to do anything anymore except pop out of existence so i never feel another thing.

And Briefcase, I don't understand you... .  if you stop looking how can you know she isn't doing it? You gave her an ultimatum, but you stopped watching. In my experience, people who cheat and so on, they just hide it better.

I may be wrong, but i think he is saying that his wife is an adult and that she makes her own choices whether they be right or wrong.  He doesnt have to drive himself crazy checking up on her. If she is going to cheat, its not him who can change that by sneaking around checking up on her.

You cant control someones behavior by catching them in the act.  Its not like they dont know what they are doing and need you to tell them.

He made his feelings known to his wife and eventually the cat is always let out of the bag.  He has the right to live without that kind of worry.  She will have to live with her decisions. Its for your own peace of mind to stop hurtful thinking.

Back last year, my boyfriend had me take pictures of him.  I then found out later that he had put those pictures on an internet dating site.

I made peace with the fact that he did it, and that I will never know the reason why. I have also done things in my life that I had no clue why I did them, so I left it at that.  

While I was visiting him the other day he asked me to take one picture for his facebook because his is really awful.  I refused nicely and said last time I did that you put them up on a website.  He said, fine I will get someone else to do it.  I said "ok, thats a good idea"... .  all handled nicely and without fighting... .  issue was dropped.

I was not hurt by the situation because I let him deal with taking his own pictures and the fact that he didnt get what he wanted because of something that he did.  Let karma kick him in the ass for some of this stuff.

Most of my paranoia was fueling the instability of the relationship.  I am not saying that if I saw him talking inappropriately to another woman that I wouldnt walk away, because I would.  I made it known last year that its not acceptable for me to be in a relationship where fidelity is not practiced, what I am saying is that I wont get paranoid or sneaking around to find stuff.  We all have individual rights to our privacy, and I have a right to self respect and peace of mind.

I think we become paranoid about that kind of stuff because we fear that we wont know how to handle ourselves if they do.  I know I will be sad, but I can walk away because I am important to me.

You know Ele, I have been following your threads and I care about you. I can really relate to the hell you have been through. Sometimes I find myself unable to be neutral because you are such a great person who obviously loves a guy who isnt appreciating that fact.  It angers me that you are hurting.  Please take care of you.  You are what is important here.

I feel the same way, and have also been following you, (omg am I a lurker?  )

Seriously, please just concentrate on you, you're too wonderful a person to be so down and in so much constant pain.

(())

CiF

This is basically right.   |iiii   It's also very hard to do, and I ain't perfect at it.   

I was trying to change my wife and control her.  It just can't be done. 

OK, not such a good place to be.   :'(  I've been there, many of us here have.  These kinds of feelings pass in time and with a little more conscious focus on yourself.  I'm sorry I can't remember if you are working with a therapist to help you cope with some of these issues.  If not, it might be a really good idea.  I worked with a therapist for a couple of years and she really, really helped me out.  She was like a trusted advisor who would help me think through strategies and such.  I no longer have to go, but it was time and money well spent.   

We're pulling for your here.  Change is possible.  I'm living proof.   

I am afraid these days trying and talk to him about these things or respond to his comments or mails because he reacts so strongly.

thank you for all of the support and care, you guys are really helping me.

Essentially what my boyfriend is asking from me is to give him a fresh clean start without him ever hearing again about what he has done, without him ever hearing I am sad or upset or that he is being asked to handle things differently because he is having an effect on me.

This means he never sees or hears again about the cheating, my sadness about it, that I struggle with the baby he has had, feel mistrust or trigger. I am to present a happy face and not be negative or lack cheerfulness. Because seeing me upset triggers HIM into blocking, silent treatment, hanging up on me, logging off on me, disappearing until I apologize for offending him.

It means I am to expect no consideration from him in reference to his past actions.

In terms of internet woman, this means that he does as he likes, he doesn't have to show care or sensitivity to me for how he has treated me over her, he can be around her as much as he likes, talk to her as much as he wants, play any way he wants around her, and he is to be allowed to do this openly and I am to show interest in their activities, encourage him to enjoy himself and never ever ever let him see I don't like it. Because if the slate is wiped clean, then all the hurtful things he did never happened, he never cheated, he never lied, he is completely trusted and loved in all ways, so I then have no reason to ever say a word and he can do as he likes.


I did trigger off of this a bit last week and he was "I am so sorry I made everything so hard for you. I know you are triggering and you feel hurt and I am sorry  for that."

Then he openly went back to talking to her in front of me, playing as much as he liked,  all over her and around her. Admittedly there are 1 or 2 people usually along with them, but he spent as much time as he could doing this, after expressing to me how much he knows it hurts me still, how it triggers me off, and that he is sorry.

Well to me, sorry means you stop doing the things you know are hurtful.


For me, his actions are the equivalent of Laelle saying to her boyfriend stop and him saying yes he is sorry he knows he is hurtful, but would you please take some hot photos of me for this dating site and he really expects she will, and when she is hurt, confused, angry and refusing, he kicks her around for her refusal and expressing her upset.

And briefcase it is like your wife saying to you, yes, I am so sorry, I can see this us scaring and hurting you and you feel unloved and direspected, btw, I have a date with my old fiance today, so you will need to do dinner for yourself and please come help me pick out a nice outfit for tonight because I want to look really sexy and classy for him. Then she gets mad and smacks you around for being shocked, hurt, and saying well no, you don't like it and won't be doing that for her and maybe it's more important that she follow through on her apology by not doing these things.

I know the game is very important to him. It's his only social outlet. He tends to want to settle in somewhere and be important and popular within that community. He could have gone elsewhere in the game but right in front of me, even though I was on my knees crying and begging him to stop this activity, he openly intensified his efforts to be close to this woman, deliberatley joining her group on an official level and then insisted to me that it was harmless, that I was trying to control him, the whole situation escalated to horribly painful levels, I was in such pain and anxiety and depression that I went on meds to try and control the anxiety.

Well all of that was last year and I found this place. Now I am in a better state of disengaging before it escalates like that, back off, going quiet, occupying myself elsewhere.

But still, even though he knows how upset I feel about what he is doing, and he says he is sorry and blah blah, it seems pretty mean to me for him to be doing what he is and then putting on me the expectation that I will wave at him and smile and say hey you look like you are having a great time with internet woman, awesome! |iiii


I can't seem to help how I am feeling. Pheobe said how about trying to go do other things and let go of this. I TRIED. I have TRIED for over a year.

What am I supposed to think or feel or say when he tells me he knows he made my life horribly painful with his actions and he is so sorry, hugs and kisses and then he does it some more?

As soon as I said anything yesterday, he was all over me for having gotton upset at him the way I have. Well I am upset, but I stopped "insulting" him. I stopped the things he said he was having such a hard time with. It's been a month or so since I did any of that and my responses to him in the last day have been calm and temperate. I expressed how I feel, my pain, I reassured him that he was not about to be smacked around by me.

But point blank I also told him this: I don't feel that I am a priority for you. You know how I feel about what you are doing, you expressed that you know it hurts me and you are sorry. Like I expressed I understand that you don't like insulted or "threatened". So I don't do that. But every day you are still doing the thing you know I feel hurt by, that is like me cursing you and threatening you every day. I don't do that.

It has been a day now. He didn't respond to this. He also didn't go onto the game. Pre-emptively, because it really destroys me when he blocks me, I took down my social page after expressing to him my hurt. Since it is deactivated, he can't block me. Email is open to him. He has not gone into the game, either he is busy or he is avoiding me or he just feels like being by himself.

I am at a standstill on this. Honestly, my feelings are being effected and I am losing my love for him. I am scared to say more, since he will view it as he has control and really screw me around with silent treatment. I am not willing to accept what he is doing at this point. I guess I will just default to silence and avoiding him if he continues this.

So my boundry is I will no longer make effort for someone who knows they are hurting me, expresses they are sorry and they know how I am feeling... .  and then deliberately does it some more because they want to. He can do what he likes, but I won't be talking to him while he does that anymore.

Is there anything else I can do? Except stay and take the hurt and hope at some point he will care enough to stop? Or that I will feel ok about his actions?

No, I am not working with a therapist.

have you physically seen him?  if not? I would cease all commuication if it were me.  By continuing to engage you are hurting yourself, the single most important person in this situation... .  YOU.

Can you go to a movie? even if you just sit there and are sad, it gets you out and about.  Nothing smells better than movie popcorn, just go, try make it ta comedy, Parental Guidance made me laugh soo hard, it felt great!

star bucks? coffee or hot chocolate? just people watch, ANYTHING to get you out and about.  I have soo been where you are and the single most helpful thing I did for me, was to get out of the house, away from the computer, away from home... .  

Turn your cell off if you have to for a while, block HIM.  Just try to get away from all this crappy engagement of his,, can you try this?  2 hours today... .  right now, maybe 2.5 tomorrow and so on and so forth?  can you please just try?

I haven't physically seen him since yesterday when I said I was unhappy and he jumped all over me for how awful I am for all of my insulting him at the end of 2012, then he said he didn't have time to talk about it and walked out of the house.

He later emailed on the social site and I responded there, then deactivated the account because if difficult conversations happen on IM there, they tend to escalate and he will suddenly block me and I don't feel like being jerked around there. Maybe it's not the big a deal to most people but I feel horribly screwed with and can get hugely upset... .  in tears, pain, in triggers off so much hurt and anger in me, that I have ended up lashing out. Am just trying to short circuit that possibility.

I have been online in the game, typically he is around. I logged out and went and did other things.

I didn't say anything more since last night. I basically feel hopeless because I know talking more is JADE and he really doesn't care how I am feeling... .  he cares that HE gets triggered into feeling bad when I am showing I feel bad. Then he gets mad and smacks me and gives me the silent treatment if I respond.

It's snowing here today. Winter advisory, so I won't be going out of the house, but I have loads of other things to do than sit around pining or staring at email hoping I will get something productive from him.

I feel exhausted. I think I have become very depressed.

Ele, I can totally understand what you are talking about.  When my bf gave me some story about why he went on that website (could be truth or could be a lie)(doesnt matter)  he told me basically that I would have to believe him and get over it.  He said it nicer than this, but that is what it came down to.  How dare he do that to me and then tell me how I should respond to it.  I know your frustration here.  I ended up telling him that I would get over it or I wouldnt in my own time not his, but that I would work on it drama free and let him know when I had decided which it would be.  

Ele, is he making any effort to compromise or is he really asking all of you and giving nothing in return?  I know your angry, and I know your scared and have about a million other emotions going on here, but do you realistically see any changes in how he wants your relationship to go, and is how he sees it acceptable for you?  If not hun, you have answered your own questions a thousand times.

Its all about what your willing and able to live with. Can you live with this?  You give a million reasons for NO, but are there any at all that say YES?

What are some of the good things about him that you admire or something about him that makes you happy.

Hey Elemental 

You said:

So my boundry is I will no longer make effort for someone who knows they are hurting me, expresses they are sorry and they know how I am feeling... .  and then deliberately does it some more because they want to. He can do what he likes, but I won't be talking to him while he does that anymore.

This a fantastic boundary you have set for yourself!  You are moving toward detachment; it seems like b/c he continues his behavior and is telling you that he will not change is behavior (which he very clearly stated and it is his boundary) your love for him is eroding.  The fact that you set a boundary shows that the love you have for yourself is starting to outweigh the preoccupied, addicted love you have for him.  That is fantastic!  Your boundary and his boundary do not mesh; they are actually at odds with each other, so if you show him that you will toss out your boundary for him and are therefore implicitly agreeing with his boundary, you are showing him that you will put his needs above your own.

It sounds like you are feeling a mixture of pain and anger.  If you can get yourself moving toward anger, it might prompt more action, like going NC for you and not for manipulation, setting more boundaries and more self-exploration!

This is hella painful, but you are doing it!  Keep moving forward and by the way I also think some therapy would be helpful to really get you going through the stages of detachment.  Can you find affordable therapy and is that something that interests you?

Him compromising... he rarely agrees to or openly states a compromise. What he does is show resistence, refusal to negotiate or comply, then if I shut up and leave it alone, after a while he may start doing what he is asked to do.


What he appears to be making effort for is this: he seemed to believe that I was offering a clean slate, so he re-set his efforts and was making himself easily available, contacting me, persuing again... like he had this idea that his damaging actions were costing him 1000.00  but if he made effort of 1500.00, he would end up with +500.00, and therefore with a positive balance he was "good" and I would be happy.

Problem is, it's kind of reached the point for me where he can't fix it as fast as he is damaging it, and I understand that I have to protect myself, where before I did not protect myself, and I ended up badly injured, then would snap and lash out... .  now I pull back, disengage. I feel control over me, my life, less injury and not really "needing" to lash out.


What does he offer? Why, when this man is feeling ok, he is the lovliest, kindest, most gentle man. Very loving and attentive, easy to talk to and be around. His native language is not english, but he is beautifully eloquent in it, romantic and intelligent, with a gentle humor that is very funny. Also I like the way he looks.

You hear so much from me about the negative side. But he is lovely when he doesn't feel under threat. I know he feels very strongly about courtesy, manners, and I have been very rude in response to his damaging actions.

I was sitting with him 2 days ago. I recently accomplished something that few people are able to, and I received an award for it. He was all over it, telling me how happy he was and how proud he is of me. It was all honey and sweetheart, kisses and love and cuddles.

And I was sitting there feeling pretty empty, because I knew he had spent half the day with the game and internet woman after he told me a few days before how he knew how painful and triggering it was for me. So I keep wanting to go with the good stuff, then it feels really messed up to me when I think of what he had been doing before I saw him that day.

Guys, it would totally be different for me if he just STOPPED. But he isn't and the aggrivation is driving me away. Maybe I do need to just learn not to care, but darn it, he wants ME to stop hurtful behaviors and I do and he just keeps right on...

I told him what we say here. I don't agree with him, or what he is doing. I don't accept his actions. That what I accept is this is what is happening NOW. I can't stop him and I have no threats or insults or demands for him. But this is how I feel.

I do feel this way. And if he doesn't want to talk to me now, ok. I am sad for it. I am really sad that I mean so little to him. Maybe it is time for me to face that and accept it. A video game means more to him than me.

I don't know about therapy. I have been thinking on it. I am not much good with things without "goals". I have therapy in the past and I felt worse. This site has actually been amazing for me. Best therapy for me is to understand and I am understanding. It's changing my world view in a really positive way.

I guess some part of me is kind of hoping that as I overcome my fear of him leaving if I take care of my needs instead of his... .  maybe he will see this and still care enough for me to shift his actions and mindset.

Maybe futile. I am not expecting it, but it would be really nice.

I want so bad just to say let him go he aint worth it, but I know its only because I cant stand to see you hurt.  Its not my place to tell you what is worth it to you. 

You made your boundaries, let them do the work.  You wont be in a relationship where fidelity is not practiced.  He intimately speaks to another woman and wont stop.  You are not in a relationship due to this fact.  Leave it at that. 

Tell YOURSELF that while you care about him and love spending time with him, because he spends time with another woman and you are not comfortable with it, you wont consider the relationship seriously and that you should both pursue your own interests.  Doesnt mean you cant hang out and enjoy time together, but as you will never accept a relationship that constantly hurts you, you should both see other people.

In your head it is now not a serious relationship and you are free to take it for what it is worth (good times, companionship, whatever) or you can let it go.  It doesnt have to hurt anymore. If things ever change and you see that he can be faithful, then you consider a serious relationship.

You dont have to talk to him about these things.  Find a friend who you can confide in.  He doesnt need to know the ins and outs of you.  It gives him too much power to mess with your head.

These are just my opinions and as I said it is bias.

Well relationship is off the tracks for sure because I can't/won't accept what he is doing. I don't have a problem with friendships, but you are right, he is trying to have an intimate interaction. Internet woman recognizes this and backed way off, but he keeps himself close to where she is, I think, in the hopes he can regain something.

And he, at this point, clearly is willing to disengage from me if I am not ok with it.

No where to go but away.

I don't want to be friends with him and it is not possible to be casual. As soon as it calms down, he is all about love and I used to be, too. Now I am just depressed and sad about it.  :'(

I will just NC until he has something to say. He can contact me via email. I guess I will come back here before I answer him. Probably since he was so outraged that I am not over things and he thinks I screwed up 2013 and the clean slate and second chance, he will avoid me and keep on his game.

I don't see much reason to fight it anymore. Game is more important, internet woman is more important. I accept it and go read or something and be with friends at least who are fun to be with.

Ielle said:

You dont have to talk to him about these things.  Find a friend who you can confide in.  He doesnt need to know the ins and outs of you.  It gives him too much power to mess with your head.



Sad but true.  I was thinking this and I am glad Ielle said it.  This board is like therapy in that things discussed here are confidential, IMO.  I am guessing that you are telling him b/c your identify is blurred with his and that you are hoping that the board can serve as a scolding parent for him and he will be motivated to "do right".

I have shared stuff with my ex in the past such as content of books I was reading, content of therapy sessions, and the kiss of death, what other people said about our relationship (I was triangulating!).  I did all of this with the hope that it would motivate my ex to "do right".  All it did was make him mad b/c all that is a form of control, so he had a right to be mad.  He also used it later to accuse me of being a horrible girlfriend.  

Have you looked in the lessons for the article on surviving a breakup?  It might be helpful.  It will remind you that he does not experience the world like you do and never will.  You are mad at him for not being as decent and respectful to you as you are with him.  You can stay in expectant limbo forever, b/c he will never be what you expect him to be.  He is who he is right now.  If you accept who he is right now, then you have all the control, and this is the sweet spot b/c you then have the choice to stay with radical acceptance or leave with readical acceptance.  You win either way!

There is something comfortable and familiar with this painful, powerless limboland for you.  It's probably found in you childhood.  Keep the focus on you.

I think you mistook what I meant. I  never said one word to him about this board or what is going on here. What I told him is I don't agree with him or accept what he trying to impose on me,  but that I do accept that these things are what they are right now.

Hope that defines. He has no idea I am here and there has heard nothing about borderline from me.

What I have talked about with him in terms of myself is about my own values, who I want to be as a person. And this was a person he fell in love with. Part of the cost for me in all of this was losing myself because the struggle has become so extreme. I ended up acting in ways I don't feel good about out of sheer upset.

What's come out of being here on these boards, strongest for me, is that I am back to me and I feel ok about my values and my boundries.

In terms of him and expectations? I don't even know anymore. It's this massively messy thing to me now. More and more I am defaulting to "this is me, if you like it and want to interact in a way that is congruent to that, wonderful, if you don't, then ok, I am going to go do other things now."

Believe me. This guy knows what he is doing. He is leveraging my feelings of love in a game of chicken to see what I will tolarate. He knows he is out of line. Probably I am not as valuable as I thought I was. So when I stand up for myself by refusing to engage on the terms he wants... I won't hear from him much.

I am more ok with that than I am ok with killing  myself to keep him around anymore.

Doesn't mean I don't feel sad or miss him or don't love him. If he won't accept reasonable terms for engagement, I can't make him.

Hi Elemental,

It's great that you're detaching the way you are and getting in touch with yourself again

It's super easy to ride the wave of their erratic emotions, finding it hard to put the effort and focus back on ourselves and the things that make us happy, the way we want to live our lives... .    But once we get over that emormous hurdle, it's super hard going back to the way things were.  For our own health and sanity, we just can't; our bodies let us know that something toxic is trying to find a host and we're aware of it.  When we don't allow the toxicity to enter, great things happen!  We get our mojo back |iiii 

I had read it on here, but was scared to death to implement it... .    You have to be willing to let the relationship go for there to ever be any sort of change.  Once that really sunk in, that I could not control any aspect of what somebody else was doing, and I was NOT okay with the way things were going... .    I confidently spoke my truth.  Not in a 'if you don't do this, I'm gone!' sort of way, but a 'I don't feel comfortable with this arrangement'.  It wasn't how I wanted to live my life.  There are still situations that arise and I still have to implement that philosophy, but I'm (still) learning to do it with respect for both of us (and my mom, too!).  And if I can't come right out and say it nicely because of my own triggered emotions, I step back and at least don't make the situation worse.

You are handling all of this really really well.  You're coming on here when you get riled up and are not lashing out at him causing further damage or creating more drama... .    It's all you can really do.  And it's a huge hurdle to scale.

Be true to yourself and follow your dreams  

Ive not read all the posts but no this is not good for you. You set your boundRies, he crosses all of them. What do you do now?

You have to be true to your boundries or theyre not real boundaries. When u allow him to cross your boundaries and continue in anyway, your in victim mode.

One of the problems I have with internet woman is that she has made herself a friend of his ex. She is very supportive of him going back to the ex, because, she says, they have children together.

So it's a big reason why I am really averse to this woman. He says she is sympathetic to him but makes her beliefs clear.

I talked to him today. He was exhausted and depressed. His ex keeps winding up over the health of the kids in order to get him to show up at her place. He says the lady is lying so much and he gets there and things are mostly ok, but he never knows when something bad will be true.

He doesn't want to address things with me and is extremely avoidant. I am guessing that on top of all of the other misery, he can't/won't deal with my requests and so on. It's easier for him to just slog through without making more effort than he is.

I am not sure how I feel about it. I am sympathetic to his situation, and I understand his tiredness and depression partly because I really am feeling it myself, too. I am not exactly an angel. I politely told him that I do not feel he is making me the priority I need to be after he did some of the things he has done. I told him that I addressed his complaints to me about what he was unhappy about me doing. Simply, I stopped doing them. But everyday, I wake up and the thing I asked for from him, he still does every day and he does it knowing that I feel hurt and afraid of it.

He declined to respond to that from me.

He crossed my boundries... what is there to do? I don't want to face it, so I go away and focus on my things. I am not sure I even have a relationship. As soon as he realized I am not "over it", the hugs and kisses and active love disappeared. I feel screwed with, though I get maybe it is more he feels hopeless too.

I may be in the state you have said you get in sometimes, Phoebe: I have no control over him, I don't like status quo, trying to talk or negotiate is not being allowed by him right now, so I am detaching and coming here, where I fuss and cry and say how bad I feel. At times, even though I hear people say go do things for myself, it really is the best I can do.

I saw on social site that he came on a bit ago and I suspect it was to chat internet woman, who then posted some comment about how exasperated she was getting due to how she once had sympathy for someone, and after a while, it was really hard to have any because all they did was make same mistakes and get into the same messes over and over.

I don't like her.

 

Just wanted to say that this is great.  Very glad you said those things, for you.  It's a true statement of what at some point, maybe very soon, he will need to be able to rectify if you are going to be a viable, satisfied partner in a r/s with him.  It's good for him to hear this, regardless of how he may (and whether he will) respond to it.

He either will change what he does in response to this knowledge of how it feels to you, or not, and then, you will know whether this can make you happy.  In a way, it is simply a matter of watching and learning, meanwhile doing other things as much as possible so it is not obsessive watching.

Sounds to me like you were loving and clear.  You can't aspire to more.  The rest is on him.  Perhaps he will surprise you (and us) by not falling short of what you need to continue.  I hope so!

He was distant and I don't think he will respond directly to what I said.

From his view, all along he meant well, then he just got mad that I am so bothered by her and his excuse for not doing anything for me there or breaking his word was that he felt controlled. He likes her, she is harmless, and why shouldn't he be friends?

And my come back is he treated me crap over her, she interfered, she made friends with his ex, she felt she was entitled to attack me and would get away with it... essentially from my perspective, he wants me as his girl, he hurt me over someone else, now that someone else needs to gtfo and never come back.

Can you tell I am still hurt and angry? 


Am I being unfair wanting him to cease contact with her? She has kind of gotton enmeshed in his situation in real life ( friends with ex now) and in virtual life ( social site, online game).

She knows I don't like her. Can tell you that whenever some guy's girlfriend in the online game figured out I was there and didn't like me hanging around her guy and I heard about it, I always distanced myself fast.

What is actually fair here?

This is very true, and well put.  The risks are high as we make changes.  But we have to believe the reward (freedom) is worth the risk (loss of the relationship).  It's about valuing ourselves more than a relationship.  It's surprising (or maybe not) how often our partners, after much threatening and kicking and screaming along the way, eventually accept some basic changes and a new "normal" gets established in the relationship.  Things aren't perfect, but they are a whole lot better.  

But, to get there, you have to be willing to sail through the storm.    

He knows I am not ok with it.

And I think from his point of view, he could legitimately say that he is tired of people trying to control him, he is a grown man who has the right to make his own choices. He gets to choose his friends. And he would prefer to lose the relationship with me than to feel like he was bullied into caving to please me.

He did tell me his ex ran off all his friends, ruined his social life and he ended up all alone with her and her family pushing him around all the time and forcing him to do things and he came out of that humiliated and really angry.

I understand that, and I never had a word to say about any of his friends until this girl came along and he started doing things to make her think he was "a good guy" and hurting me in the process.

Now he says if I am "jealous" of her, then maybe I should put out a little more effort for him in terms of engaging him than spent my time being upset about his interaction with her.

Tbh, when I hear that, I walk off, because I can't figure out where to find a big enough stick to whack him with. After what he asked of me and what he put me through, this is what I hear?

Can you say DISRESPECT?

I was in a marriage with the mentality was "put up or shut up".  It took me 13 years of trying to please and feeling less than human most days... .  when I filed for divorce and left it was a HUGE relief... .  I never felt more alive then when I finally left that toxic relationship.  It may be time to call it like it is and move onto something healthier for you.

-luvapug

Elemental,  if you feel totally disrespected then what are your options?  You cannot make him change his status with her.  He's having no part of it.

The thing about the internet woman (to me) is this... .    She signifies ALL the past hurts you've experienced with your boyfriend.  If he would only stand up for you on this ONE THING (STOP interacting with internet woman!) it would make everything else okay?  And you could then be happily in a relationship with him, moving forward in a healthy way?

Your boyfriend has a mental disorder.  If it's not internet woman, it might be something else... .    Making internet woman go away does not make BPD go away, ya know?  Have you gotten to a place of acceptance that your guy has a true mental illness? 

Untreated BPD will manifest in all kinds of ways.  It doesn't make you a bad person for not wanting to put up with it.  But, if you want to be in a relationship with him there are certain things that you're going to have to accept.  He isn't emotionally healthy for starters.  And there's nothing you can do about it; you cannot make him stop having BPD :'(  There are ways to make accepting it easier though, and finding out what you're willing and able to tolerate (Boundaries) is a good place to start.

You might very well realize that it's not at all what you want to deal with and that's totally okay.  Acceptance hurts.  It sucks big time!  All the dreams you had, gone.

In it's place though is the reality of the relationship.  What does he bring to your life that's worth staying around for?  Are they things that are worth staying around for?  Or are you better off without him and the pain this relationship brings to your life?

Tough stuff, but you cannot change him.  You can change your perception though... .   

I wrestle with the idea of internet woman. He has other women friends. I feel nothing coming off of them and he generally is very appropriate towards them.

In fact, he has pointed out to me what you are saying to you she represents.

He thinks she represents to me exactly what you think.

He feels I am scapegoating her and associating with her my pain.


I haven't had any contact with her for about 3 months.


Likely if I cannot accept the contact they have, it will indeed spell the end of this relationship. Probably it will.

And I can't tell if he really has a mental illness or is just so freaked out and messed up from his ex and her family that he has fleas, PTSD, and is terribly depressed.

I feel disrespected and a half dozen other things. They all swirl around in my head like a tornado, and sit in my chest and hurt. When he acknowledges to me that he hurt me and he is sorry for something, the pain goes away and I think wow, he actually believes I am human and have a heart, have feelings, have needs or wants. I feel so starved out by him on every level. He has disregarded my feelings so many times while claiming not to.

I am not stupid. I can tell when someone is feeding me crap. 

I have other men persuing me. And I talk to them some. I don't tell him about my interaction. I have been rock solid true to him.  And I ask myself would he be upset anyway. I think he would because he never was forced to face the challenge of me betraying him or openly choosing others over him while insisting I was not. I just never talk much about them. He knows I am true.

I spend a lot of time in confusion, trying to figure out what is fair, what is healthy. I am more confused now in many ways than I was when I came to this site.

I'm going out on a limb here and I apologize if it's somewhere you're not quite ready to go to yet, as it may cause further confusion... .  

Do you believe there's any chance that your boyfriend represents the past hurts and wounds you've experienced from your father?  Like you're living out the past in real-time?  

I felt starved out by my father and my mother.  I then created a script (unbeknownst to me) and put so much pressure on others to fill up that void, to make the past wrongs right.  If they'd only do this, I'd feel so happy and whole, yes!  I would choose people that no way no how could they fill up that void, and disappointed me time and time again.  There were of course moments of bliss, where the planets seems to all align, but all of those blissful feelings were of my own making - they weren't because of what someone else was doing.  They were because in that moment in time, I felt that they were following my script... .   Keep it going, keep it going... .   Whoa, what just happened?  I've been sucker punched again and the rug has been pulled out from underneath me.  Having no idea how to approach this in an adult-like way, because emotionally I was reacting like a little girl, with all the feelings of hopelessness and helplessness that children feel when growing up in a dysfunctional invalidating environment.  I had no choice but to survive as a child, developing all kinds of false beliefs and defense mechanisms.  When things were good again, I felt that my family held the key to my happiness, they held so much power over me.  

As an adult, I have choices!  And I also have the rationale to realize that nobody holds that much power over me, to affect my feelings to such an extent that my happiness rests in how they're interacting with me, what they're doing to me... .   I realize that if I'm miserable it's of my own making because I am choosing to let someone else have that kind of power.

It's deep stuff, elemental... .   It's who we believe we are at our core.  It's no wonder we find ourselves in difficult relationships, we didn't know any different.  Confusion was/is our normal.  A lot of our thought processes are the exact same ones we developed when we were little children.  Not much different than people with BPD or anyone for that matter; our defense mechanisms, the things that make us feel safe were all learned in childhood.  What worked for us then, no longer does.  As adults we can make the conscious decision to change all of that.

That is one big reason why we are expected to be the emotional leaders in these relationships; we have the insight!  And we're making a conscious choice to either lead the relationship in the direction we'd like it to go (and can see/feel that they're trying also), or we walk away when we find that we've outgrown all of this child's play... .  

But we no longer let other's dictate our lives or our emotions... .   Or define who we are.

Does any of this resonate with you?

WOW, just WOW Phoebe.  I can totally relate to this.  :)

Well Phoebe that is a lot.

And certainly I have spent enormous amounts of time thinking and wondering about it. There is too much there for it not to be having an effect. Dark Matter twisting the physics of the seen universe :/

In some of my posts I have said a few things about my family. Really that is the tip of the iceberg with them. For the last 10 years I have had people in my family who I had good close relationships with (I thought!) but recently there have been troubles there, too. My beloved younger brother's wife does not like me and is currently creating enough discord that we are all unhappy with each other. I am silent to her now after trying to ask her to talk about it. She doesn't want to talk ( as she knows I know she has been making up lies and stories and she knows we all know and doesn't have it in her to face us directly for it) and becomes angry at my attempts, so I am leaving her alone.

I have had 3 long term relationships in my adult life. One I know for sure I should never stayed in. One was a marriage that ended after 8 years. And this one, which clearly I have sat in, easily deceived and trying to endure the unendurable to the point of fracturing myself apart. I didn't understand what co dependence was until recently.

I get twisted around on my guy, because he can be incredibly wise and emotionally astute, then end up doing things he knows will create some pretty significant problems. So I don't even know about the BPD stuff for real, but there sure are strong traits I see.

Right now he is offering the clean slate to the relationship. Let's start over. Let's put the unfixable in the past and forget it, move on, let's be happy, but I keep getting snagged up on internet woman. I was thinking about what you said about her last night, and what his observations are... .  and how I feel when I see her and what I think when I see her.

He indicates that he is in pain too over things I have said and done, and he himself is willing to work through it without putting complaints on me. He really is.

You guys know it's a good offer on a lot of levels. I am honestly not wanting to engage with him in conflict. All of the things he did... well the hurt dies down enough for me to process unless it gets aggrivated, which is what is keeping me upset about internet woman. Her presence triggers off the other stuff ( and he KNOWS this for over a year) and I go into a tailspin that at times has had me literally wrapped up in bed shaking so hard my teeth are chattering and my heart beating so hard you can see my chest shake.

What do they say, in something like this there is a "hook". Find the hook and you can set yourself free.