Print Page - ignore what we in the regular world would call "rudeness?"

Most of you are familiar with my intimate-friendship-with-uBPDex-with-whom-I-am-still-in-love story, so I won't rehash the background here ... . for this question, he's a pwBPD whom I am not trying to rescue or fix, who comes & goes freely in our r/s & seems to appreciate that, who makes occasional surprising gestures of wanting to increase the intimacy & reality content of our connection, but who also needs, and takes, significant distance, especially when things get too close & he starts to rely or depend on me too much.

I'm wondering how to respond to communication (or non-communication) that in ordinary life we would consider rude. MaybeSo wrote one time that she spent hours trying to decide how to respond to comments that hurt her, only to realize that her pwBPD was just sorta awkward, careless & unaware--not meaning to be uncaring, just clueless. That seems insightful--maybe a lot of this stuff can just be ignored rather than actively dealt with. And in general in this r/s, we do well b/c I do not criticize, confront or ask for more--I just adjust my behavior according to what he is able to give at any given time (this is why we are in a friendship not a romantic partnership, as I don't see being able to do that as lovers). But I would appreciate guidance, because I am also mindful of the maxim that we get what we ask for, we teach people how to treat us, etc.

The specific current instances: we saw each other three days ago & as always, it was great. Close, intense, warm. Warm followup texts that night, ending when he stopped responding--very unusual for him. Then, warm texts the next day, including an interesting quote he sent. That night I emailed asking what he thought the quote meant. His response yesterday was two sentences: "too much for email, especially after (spending hours w/computer support people on a problem) ... . it's arich piece of writing!"

It hurt when I read this--VERY unusual, maybe unprecedented, for him to reply so dismissively to smething I wrote; & "too much for email" leaves me at a loss, since we only see each other every two weeks or so, we no longer talk by phone, and email is where we typically process complex ideas. Also, he shared this quote w/me, & all I asked was what it meant to him--odd that he would then not want to tell me why h liked it or found it significant.

He has been explaining recently that he finds me "naive" (not in a mean way), saying that I give him the benefit of the doubt in instances where it isn't warranted (as well as other examples), & I wonder if part of him is wondering when I am ever going to call him on stuff like this. Insteade, I ignore & wait for the moment to pass, & never express dissatisfaction, which he handles very poorly, at least in the moment.

Yet, again, our r/s has been going well in part b/c I don't expect him to behave otherwise & I don't try to change him.

Thoughts? Just ignore & move on? If I do, in days, he will be back fully engaged with me. Or try to address the oddness and sort of rudeness of his reply?

Needless to say, if I ever responded to him in this way, he would notice--he'd regard it as a sure sign that I was rejecting him. And when we were first together, he was the opposite--completely responsive & attentive. But both of those points sort of lead nowhere in the analysis of how I should handle this sort of thing from him ... . we are not going back to the initial idealization stage, & we are not symmetrical & I have to deal w/things differently in this r/s than he does, for it to work.

Sigh. This is hard work.

I don't think I have any advice to give in your specific situation. I don't know your story that well and I would feel out of my depth. So I'll share my experiences. My bf also often answers in a way most people would consider rude, and I find it hurtful. He is that way with me, and sometimes with his children, perhaps with people at work but never with people in his social circle. No surprise, he doesn't know them well.

Since we started CT together I have occasionally, and only when I felt there was room to do so, asked him why he expressed himself in that manner, or I might ask him to clarify what he meant and add how I perceived his response. Or I might ask if he is feeling irritated. Almost every time it has stunned him that I would think so. Sometimes he is aware that he sounds rude and he might even apologize, or he will get even more irritated that I asked.

My point is that they aren't always aware of how they sound and if your pwBPD is anything like mine there may be space to ask him.

Quote from: patientandclear on January 31, 2013, 11:27:34 AM

He has been explaining recently that he finds me "naive" (not in a mean way), saying that I give him the benefit of the doubt in instances where it isn't warranted

Is there any possibility that this fellow (who sounds quite clever) is a past master at this game? That perhaps he is even thinking, "I can tell her exactly what I'm doing and still this woman--so desirable herself--will continue to pursue me?" If this were his general life pattern, mightn't you be a tasty morsel indeed? I could be very wrong here, but in reading your posts I sometimes think I'm in the middle of an 18th century French novel of sophisticated intellectual sadism, with a male hero named something like ":)orval."

Would this fit with his past romantic history? Or does he really know not what he does?

My bf is the master of hurtful words. He is from a VERY hostile environment and his friends are all pretty much like him. He grew up with being abused and verbally assaulted.

Somethings you have to just not over analyse and let it go. I can understand you being hurt that he didnt respond when you were going out of your way to be interested in the things he writes to you. Honestly, I dont think he meant to hurt you, he simply had moved on to something else by then. baffling sort they are. My bf... . tells me "I dont know what your on about" talk about invalidating. :) He calls you naive probably because he worries about hurting you with his behavior. My bf calls me lots of things, but I have mostly learned to consider the source and tease him back about it. He tells me I act like a child... . I say I know, and if you keep teasing me im going to cry.

and laugh about it. It hurts sometimes, and sometimes I say... . ouch that hurts... . but then I drop it. Normally he will come back with a smooth over sentence within a short while and I accept it.

Consider the source... . let it go, or dont. Either way its ok.

Sounds like your doing a great job to me. :)

It's a balance, and sometimes a difficult balance. We have to pick our battles, but we can't just become doormats to "keep the peace." There is a time and way to raise these kids of issues, and we can't shrink from them. Sometimes, things just have to be said for our own sakes.

That said, in this particular case, his response was basically that it wasn't a good time (he was tired) or the right way (email) to have this conversation. I'm sure this was a disappointing response to hear. Maybe just email back something like, "OK, give it some thought and we can talk about it the next time we get together." See how he responds. If he's dismissive of that response too, then you can raise that issue with him in a DEARMAN or SET format, depending on what you want to accomplish.

Quote from: KateCat on January 31, 2013, 12:29:07 PM

Wow. Fascinating. Thank you so much for asking that question ... . I am going to ponder this.

His past history is full of short intense passionate encounters that end in heartbreak for the woman & confusion for him. Typically he goes into counseling after he suddenly breaks up with someone out of the blue, and the counselor tells him various unhelpful things like maybe he just hasn't found the right woman yet, or no, it's not weird that sex freaks him out ... . after he left me, he saw a counselor who, perhaps for the first time, was identifying deeper dysfunction, and who recommended he NOT get back together with me when we were contemplating it. I think, though, he did not continue with that & instead decided the problem was I was not the right woman after all, because he immediately started pursuing his ex gf -- despite declarations that I was the most amazing love he'd known & he had no idea what caused his emotions to go haywire about us, and maybe he needed to explore being alone.

More recently though, he has (as far as I know) been alone since we reconnected. He seems to be working on defining himself without relying on a partner or prospective partner to rescue him or give meaning to his life -- for the first time ever -- at 50.

However, it is also true that he compartmentalizes information, doesn't disclose inconvenient facts, and is super smart.

The one thing I will say is that I am not pursuing him. At all. He has even grumbled about this -- noticed that I never initiate getting together, and asked that I do so, which I've posted about -- but I feel emotionally safer & less exposed not pursuing him. I respond to him, basically (this is not rigidly true -- I might initiate email or texting if something comes up that I want to tell him about -- but in terms of getting together or repairing gaps, I basically leave that to him. I will NOT pursue him.)

But I guess that doesn't answer your fundamental question, which I take to be -- is there sincerity here on his part, is this a genuine bond, or is he consuming my love and attention in a really selfish way?

And of course, I really don't know for sure. I do see him making surprising gestures that make it feel real, and risky to him. Introducing me to his family, asking to meet mine, offering to travel to see me rather than our usual routine where we meet conveniently for him, and so on. That feels genuine. And what we talk about is undoubtedly of genuine importance to him.

Wondering what you see in my posts (and totally, truly interested -- not defensive at all & wondering if you are right!) that makes it feel like this is manipulative and sort of sadistic?

Thank you KC!

P&C

Mine drifts in and out. When he is available on MSN, for example, he will make a comment, I see it, make one back. Often a whole day of slow conversation like this takes place, as he has IM on his phone and does other things, like work and travel while he talks.

I used to get upset that I was not getting his full attention, but he actually will relax and more conversation will take place if I simply allow it to happen.

I don't know about your guy. I agree with the poster that this does seem like a literary event playing out, as you are very eloquent.

Lately I, myself, have developed a streak of cynicism, probably I am tired out on these things, but I would never put this kind of effort into another person other than my BPD. Other people ( maybe BPD) start these sorts of behaviors and I just check them off as someone not worth my time mostly.

I think maybe you are simply coming up against yourself internally, wanting this to be more than you are allowing it to be right now. Who could blame you.

Quote from: elemental on January 31, 2013, 01:37:25 PM

this does seem like a literary event playing out, as you are very eloquent.

This would be how I see the relationship for both of you at this point. As still a seductive relationship, for both parties. . . . And probably even for readers like me, as you are very eloquent and this is like reading chapters of a serialized story. Maybe it's not at all a game between very evenly-matched players. But I think that him telling you you are naive about him, specifically, gives it that vibe. (Oh yeah, and also the fact that the content of your exchanges is intimate and all about whether love exists and so on.)

But what's the harm? He's a 50-year-old lifelong bachelor? no kids? And you are already a mom and have your own life? I think the only risk would be in him succeeding in communicating to you the notion that he is, for the first time ever, committed to self-examination and personal change, in reliance on which you stay in his life and don't move on in your own. That might be a bit "gamey" on his part.

But if he's newly in therapy, I take back all of the above musings.

He is not in therapy (that I know of), and if his relationships with his kids are unproblematic, it would be the only relationships in his life of which that is true.

So ... . don't back off your theory so readily! :)

This has given me a lot to think about. It is a relationship of continuing mutual seduction, to a point, no question. But another way of saying that is that we keep trying to appeal to and please one another, within boundaries that we are both respecting. So like you say, not sure that there is necessarily harm in that, IF it doesn't prevent me from exploring other things, which I don't think that it is.

But your notion that he is sadistic in some way ... . I'm interested in that because even though 80% of the time I feel he is genuine and trying to form a real bond, and sometimes critically examines himself in the course of that, and is trying to operate with integrity ... . about 20% of the time, and especially when I read accounts of pwBPD who have a collection of people to whom they are never accountable and into whose lives they come & go at will, intimate while they are there, then totally absent ... . I start to feel like this is Bluebeard's castle and at first I was the new woman who got the run of the front rooms and to whom everything seemed fine, until she looked into the back room where the other women were locked away, and now I am one of those women, being used as a substitute for examining his real barriers to intimacy.

It's interesting -- the one thing we have not talked productively about since we split up is love and romance. When I have ventured that it seems like he is afraid to trust love from people who really know him, his reaction is "uh, I don't really know why you'd say that; I value the experiences that gave me my scars; this is just how life goes, isn't it? not even sure love is possible." (Another example of statements that are extremely painful for me to read, but where he is probably unaware of that.) Though other times he has shared that he used to lose himself completely in relationships and couldn't even tell who he was individually, and now he is trying to define who he is individually and that seems to preclude a relationship. Sometimes insightful, sometimes not; sometimes open, sometimes not.

***

As to the question of whether to point out that his email wasn't very thoughtful, I think I will just let it go, as several of you suggested, and consider it an example of his skills deficit in understanding how things will appear to others.

Yes, they could be there. I only think they're not because we so often are in communication throughout the evening and at night, and because I think the very problem that causes him to freak out whenever we get very close will continue to implode any potential intimate relationship he has, and because he seems to have entered a sort of monastic phase where he adheres to a rigid schedule, works all the time, and is trying to stay away from close entanglements because they threaten his progress with his self-definition project. I honestly cannot imagine him allowing anyone else in his apartment these days -- he is that rigid about his environment and people not messing with his plans/ways/routine.

But I don't know for sure. And that is a timely reminder of another reason why I think I can only be his friend, not more ... . I couldn't stand the anxiety of worrying about that if we were trying to be partners. It would dismantle me. And I simply wouldn't be certain. When we were dating, he reached out casually to his ex gf (of whom he had seemingly had no particular thoughts for months and months) on a trip we took together which was about as intimate and special as any time I've ever spent with another person. You all know the pattern. So if we were being partners I would never feel confident that he was only with me. I think that would really tear me up.

Quote from: patientandclear on January 31, 2013, 11:27:34 AM

Then, warm texts the next day, including an interesting quote he sent. That night I emailed asking what he thought the quote meant. His response yesterday was two sentences: "too much for email, especially after (spending hours w/computer support people on a problem) ... . it's arich piece of writing!"

It hurt when I read this--VERY unusual, maybe unprecedented, for him to reply so dismissively to smething I wrote; & "too much for email" leaves me at a loss, since we only see each other every two weeks or so, we no longer talk by phone, and email is where we typically process complex ideas. Also, he shared this quote w/me, & all I asked was what it meant to him--odd that he would then not want to tell me why h liked it or found it significant.

Hello P&C

Your guy sounds rather provocative... .    Not a big deal though, as long as you don't make it one :) I mean, he sends an interesting quote then doesn't wish to discuss it through email because he was busy, okay, let it go... Or, did the quote mean anything significant to you? Did you find anything enriching about it that you'd like to discuss with him? Your feelings about it? If not, okay.

That's the thing with email, there's no body language or tone of voice involved, and as much as we think we understand what the other person is trying to convey, things get lost in translation.

Look at how many sentences have been provided on this thread concerning his 2 - "too much for email, especially after (spending hours w/computer support people on a problem) ... . it's arich piece of writing!"

All the other sentences on this thread are our own $.02, speculation, feelings that come up from other posters that have experienced similar, etc etc etc... .    All because your guy didn't respond in an expected way.

That's an awful lot of focus being put on something that might not even mean much, ya know?

Or might it?

I cannot stress this enough, because I do it too... .    When our minds start doing flip-flop acrobats trying to sort something out that someone said, did, typed... , either address it with that person if it's really bothering you or do something for yourself that takes the focus off of it.

Our minds can be our own worst enemies. And I hope this doesn't come off as invalidating, because I don't mean it to. It's just that we being the way we are (partners of pwBPD) tend to overthink things. Speaking for myself now, I tend to get too intellectual about something rather than getting in touch with my emotions about it. You felt dismissed. It's okay to tell him that! Then let it go... .

Hi P & C

I can't help thinking you asked for something from him and he didn't give it. It's almost like he's reminding you not to ask anything of him. And isn't this typical of a certain type of push? Just when you find you're on seemingly solid ground for a moment they have to trip you over and remind you there's a ditch you nearly fell into because you weren't looking where you were going.

I agree with 123phoebe that we are all over-thinking this. What is stopping you from telling him his words upset you, in a dearman or set?

I find the stuff in here about whether he is sadistic very interesting. I wonder whether my BPDex gets something out of his nasty behaviour but I really do not know. The thing is I don't see it toward me but I hear him talking about other women he is involved with as 'too innocent' or 'a train wreck'. He blames their upset when he isn't very nice to them on them- it causes him to be more horrible to them. It's chilling because I can see the way an abuser blames his victim, but the abuse we are talking about is subtle and wouldn't necessarily be defined as abuse. In an argument it would be two way.

I would tell my ex to f*** off if he was rude sometimes and sometimes I would take it. Sometimes I would make a joke of it. The times I just took it he ramped it up.

P&C after reading your first post, my inclination is to not overthink or read too much into it. I know, at times, my pwBPD has responded so abruptly and has been down right rude to me that it felt like he slapped me in the face.

I would spend so much energy thinking if I should tell him, explain how I felt or just let him know it wasn't ok for him to talk to me like that.

I would feel bad and expect better from him.

As I have been working on myself and communicating more effectively, I am trying to let rude comments pass right by. He never remembers them because he is too consumed in what he is thinking about. I would overthink and process things for days on end. I sort of figured out that I was spending the time making them matter in our relationship. I don't know if that sentence makes any sense at all.

I am working at accepting him as he is. He can be crude, rude and abrupt. He can be kind, thoughtful, sweet and loving. He is smart, funny and who he is. I lost myself for years trying to make it different. I am trying to get myself back.

I think you are such an eloquent, smart, strong person. I give you so much credit for the work you have put into yourself and your relationship.

I agree, P&C, that it's "not about the email." (Although I have a feverish enough imagination to construct a Bluebeard's Cyber Castle out of an email exchange, probably.) I think it's about this:

Quote from: patientandclear on January 31, 2013, 01:35:19 PM

after he left me, he saw a counselor who . . . was identifying deeper dysfunction, and who recommended he NOT get back together with me when we were contemplating it.

I think it's the idea that a professional has had some input into this situation that suggests this will not be satisfactory for either one of you, although both of you may be drawn to the relationship.

For me, personally, it's the idea that a 50-year-old guy could be so "confused" as to declare you the love of his life and then back away this much . . . but still want you as a friend. No wonder you can't stop trying to figure it out.

My thought is that you can "ignore" the rudeness which is obviously hurtful to you if you want to. Or you can confront him on it in some way. (Something like SET or DEARMAN would probably work better than just "calling him on it." and expecting him to get it, as you have noticed in other regards.

It is up to you to decide how important this specific issue is to you.

OTOH, my suspicion is that he needs to back off and get space at times for his own reasons... . and he finds ways to do it. And he (at least sub-consciously) IS aware that he has found a way to push one of your buttons when he does it. You won't get anywhere blaming him for it... . and even less by confronting him on it... . but I think that a pwBPD finds things that really do hurt to do way too well for it to be just random luck.

Good luck with tough choices!

I have to add that one great difficulty in trying to figure out what people with ppd traits say is that they don't necessarily tell the truth. So we go round in circles because we cannot possibly believe that they are lying. I can't waste time on it any more because my ex cannot tell the truth but I absolutely believed everything he told me.

What if there was no computer problem? What if there are other women? What if he calls you 'naive' because you believe him?

I don't mean to say that he is lying and I don't mean to be harsh because I so admire and respect your ability to be there for this man. I'm just saying lying is a part of the disorder but for some reason you don't question the factual basis of what he tells you. I would have bet my children's lives on my ex being honest- absolutely.

I part of your radical acceptance is to not question the facts that's fine- but the difficulty then becomes you can feel bad in situations like this because you, and all of us, think he's doing one thing, saying a straight forward, 'I'm busy with other things' when he might not be.

Don't know if I'm making sense here- just don't beat yourself up for wanting to be the best you possibly can when he may not be coming at it from the same angle

Think about a time when you told a lie... . a small lie. Is it a fact that because you lied about that one thing that everything else you have ever said or will say is a lie?

In my opinion a BPD will lie for reasons that we can not comprehend and probably dont even understand themselves. They wage a constant battle with self hatred, low self esteem and even their own right to exist. They lie not necessarily to hide things from you, but to keep them from having to look at themselves and find themselves flawed. If you dont see it, they can ignore it too. We automatically think they are up to something because we dont get why they lied. To us it may be something that there would be no reason to lie about. To them its a good or bad issue because as we know they cant see grey.

Yes I do get the reasons for the lies and I don't mean to criticise the lies because I understand that people coming from that defensive place don't actually see a choice. I don't blame my ex for lying.

What I'm trying to say is we can't base our reactions on an assumption that the person with BPD is telling the truth. That can cause us to flip around trying to get our own reactions sorted and blaming ourselves when it may be that we are reacting to the words and the words aren't real.

P & C's man is saying he hasn't got time to respond- that hurts P & C because they were sharing something deep and she was in the moment of sharing that when he says 'can't do that now, I'm in another moment here'.

All I'm saying is whatever moment he is in it may not be one that is absorbing because of computer fixing.

P & C, if you open yourself up to the possibility that there is a different reality to the one he has told you, that he isn't actually on his own, it may help you to stay grounded in what you are trying to do here.

It is highly unlikely that someone with BPD traits stays alone in the way he says he is. But if it's true it make you feel special and validated because he chooses you to share himself with, and you care deeply for him. Without blaming him or you, this situation is allowing you to feel chosen and special to him. He cares so much that he will do this quasi relationship even though he wants really to be alone. That is meeting a need in you to believe that what he and you shared was special. I get that because I need the same with my BPD r/s.

But is highly unlikely that my ex didn't have all sorts of other 'friendships' going on that he didn't fully reveal to me. He needed them to survive. But I'm still not sure and never will be. He won't reveal that because he knows me intuitivly- he knows that's the thing that will stop me feeling special.

However when he tells me he is doing a certain thing I don't take that as fact any more, that's all. For example he recently emailed me and said he was spending some time with his brother. My thoughts- excellent, good for him- he is working on himself, he is making an effort.

What he didn't say was that he was with his new girlfriend and discussing with his brother and others whether he should marry her, 3 months in.

So... . I made a judgement on him based on what I thought was a fact. There was no lying involved. But the real facts were different. The facts impact on my feelings. And the facts impact on your feelings P & C. Because a little rudeness is one thing, the same words if the situation is altogether different is abusive and may cause you pain.

Lots to absorb in the last several posts.

I'm not making assumptions about whether he is with someone else. He may be. He certainly has other friendships that he relies on, one in particular with a woman married to a close friend of his. Off limits for a romance, so ideal for him. I'm a little more difficult because there isn't that per se prohibition, so he constantly has to police the boundaries, or he would, if I were challenging them -- but I'm not.

So no, I won't be particularly hurt if he is seeing someone else. I can't imagine it will last more than a few weeks. He is SO brittle and has such a hard time with anyone getting past his surface layer. KateCat, you are right that the core hurt for me in this situation is that he said he was deeply in love, he showed he was agonizing about leaving me, we are still this close, and yet, we cannot be more. It's really really hard.

But in this situation, I don't think there is any question of "lying." He wasn't saying he didn't have enough time to answer, he just chose not to. And that is unusual. And I understand enough about BPD by now to know that it is probably coming more from a place of hurt than indifference. I don't know what caused the hurt, and the question is, should I ask? Or should I let it go, like coworkerfriend advises, and let him work it out on his own, since objectively, I've given him mountains of evidence that I care for him?

What is pushing me to ask about it is that he has said to me in the past that I should tell him if he is doing something that bothers me. He's taken risks in this relationship and if I hang back silently here, I am not perhaps living up to what we both deserve in terms of honest communication.

I am considering sending this, and would appreciate comments from you BPD whisperers out there -- is this OK?

Hi.

Did I hurt or offend you in some way? I ask because this response is so unlike you.

I was asking what the quote meant to you because I care what you think, and it seemed meaningful to you, and I realized I hadn't really asked you why, when you sent it.

It's not necessary that we ever discuss the quote, and I completely understand being tired or out of time or not in the mood to write. But this response to something we would normally discuss just shuts me down completely, and I can't recall you ever doing that, which makes me wonder if something is bothering you.

I was going to just let this pass, figuring we would repair what is wrong -- if there is something -- eventually, but then I remembered that you asked me to tell you if there was something I was concerned about, and it seems to me that silence is not the best way to do that. So, I'm asking!

Did you get the computer problem sorted out? How are things?

Im sorry I'm not sure lying is even the right word and I've ended up moving on a tangent I didn't mean to.

Just trying to say we make assumptions and take offence or get hurt based on believing a certain fact base that we act from as human beings. We operate from a solid base- pwBPD don't have that same solid base because their base is an emotional one and the emotions are constantly shifting. One of the difficulties i find in communicating in BPD world is that I can't assume anything is fact. I think I was picking up more on his calling you naive which seems quite hurtful when you have been so supportive.

I like your statement to him here- you communicate your feelings and I think that is important.

My pwBPD would just tell me to stop over analysing but it would not stop me from saying it these days!

Thanks Maria & Laelle. Laelle, what do you think of "is everything OK?" inquiries--as opposed to just waiting for things to normalize on their own? I have tended to just let him sort out his feelings when he pulls away like this--in part due to Maria's point that he may not even be able to accurately identify what IS going on with his own feelings, so asking may not yield any real information.

But I'm thinking of asking now for a couple reasons. One, he has asked me to say something if he does something that bothers me. So just burying all my reactions doesn't honor that. Though I'm not sure he really wants or is prepared to deal wit what he asked for, too.

We also don't necessarily move forward if I just pretend not to notice strange reactions. Maybe these reactions are significant, & here I am just acting as if they never happened.

Finally, I was just realizing that these breaks (where he abruptly shuts down a conversation) are becoming more, not less, common, as we go deeper in this "friendship" and cover more intimate ground. So not sure things are improving with time & a hands off approach by me.

In our talk on Monday, he told me he is probably moving to another city. He's said that in the past too, but I think this is a more concrete, imminent plan. In the past, this would have sent me spinning. This time, I calmly asked about his plans in a supportive way, & didn't act all hurt or sad. I wonder if this itself has hurt him--my apparent indifference to him leaving.

pwBPD live a very confusing life, even in their own minds they often do not know why they do these things. They create their own little world of delusions, excuses and twisted realities in order to justify themselves to themselves. They know no different, so when they communicate to others they will often say what they think sounds best drawing from truths, half truths and fabrications, with no boundaries between them. This is their normal world.

The way this impacts on you is that you cannot differentiate between one mode and the other as the crossover is seamless, and of no matter to them, it is their natural way of communication. The fibs and embellishments are not always meant to be deceitful or harmful, its just part of their language. To spend your time trying to dissect their authenticity will leave you living with constant suspicion and insecurity.

It is best to treat everything they say on face value as "interesting" choosing neither to believe nor disbelieve, but don't make any life changing important decisions on their word alone.

Quote from: waverider on February 01, 2013, 05:09:29 PM

This is a really important point, one that Maria1 makes often too, and it is why I usually do not ask my pwBPD why something happened or why he did what he did. Honestly, a lot of the time, I don't think he knows, but the effort to tell a story that doesn't cast him in a bad light distorts any true information so much that I was better off before I asked him, just basing my understanding on what I myself could glean from observation.

That said, as human beings, I feel sort of obligated at some point to take him up on legitimate requests to have a better relationship. And this is what I am finding confusing now. Previously, he asked me to ask him to get together, not always leave it to him to ask. After weighing my own vulnerability to a feeling of rejection, I have largely stuck with my practice of letting him ask; but it feels a little weird since his request, in the regular non-BPD world, is a completely reasonable one for reciprocity and equality, one which I would normally honor without a second's hesitation or worry.

In this instance, he has asked me previously to let him know if he does something that bothers me. Again, a reasonable request for an improved relationship. The current email weirdness and accompanying text silence is unusual for us and to me does signal that something is wrong for him, though by this time he may have forgotten what it was or how we got into this place. I can let it go, and reach out without reference to it to let him know the light continues to be green. I can let it go, and wait for him to make contact next. Or I can ask if something is wrong, because this was strange. To me the value of the latter is not that I will necessarily get reliable information -- again, not sure he knows the answer to the question what went wrong and why -- but because it shows him I've noticed he may be feeling badly and I do want to know why.

I gather a strong consensus here, though, that letting it go is the best course, and I really value all of your guidance. Right now, that's what I'm doing ... .

Quote from: patientandclear on February 01, 2013, 05:27:44 PM

Or I can ask if something is wrong, because this was strange. To me the value of the latter is not that I will necessarily get reliable information -- again, not sure he knows the answer to the question what went wrong and why -- but because it shows him I've noticed he may be feeling badly and I do want to know why.

This is important as it is validating that you are paying attention. The trick is then to allow him to volunteer further input, if he wants to, rather than pushing for answers and putting pressure on him thereby triggering defensive behavior.

Lack of any inquiry will be interpreted as you just don't care about him

A fine line I know, but then it always is, you just have to learn that it's ok to get it wrong and cross it from time to time.

Thanks, everyone, for helping me process this situation. Waverider, your last post especially helped me. Here's how I see the evolution of how I saw this issue initially vs now, a day later after having read your comments:

As several of you pointed out, I was hurt initially. Despite everything I've learned, I still started out at that point, with all the attendant questions about whether to do something about how it hurt me. That's where many of you gave me the good advice to let it go or back off--not worry about it.

A different framework though is that I know this is not coming from nowhere. Something has happened to mess with his feelings--there is something up for him. It could possibly be that he's seeing someone else but I think if he were, he'd have answered differently. I think more likely, something about comments I made or attitudes I displayed -- apparent indifference to his plans to move, joking about how I wouldn't see him for months -- hurt him enough that he needed to shut down his good feelings about me/us.

What Waverider said is I think right--not to acknowledge the very obvious weirdness, given how unusual it is & that he's asked me before to tell him if something concerns or bothers me -- would be very invalidating. So I've aske, while leaving it open for him to just move past whatever it is. So 've made an opening for him, not a requirement, that he tell me what's up

Oh Bang this topic is exactly what I have going on right now. Thanks for the posts.

It really hit home about "they can be crude, rude and abrupt. and they can be kind thoughtful, sweet and loving."

Yeah exactly, anything they express is usually expressed to the fullest possible extent.

There is never a middle of the road about anything.

I am working on not "letting in it" when my ex lets rip with one of the scathing ripostes that seem to flow out of her.

I have a mental image of putting on emotional armour, and letting the comment deflect. Even though the comment might start with the words "You" I understand its not about me. Its about how she FEELs about me and her feelings always are at the extreme levels of intensity.

It must be terrible to live that way.

I tried to read the majority of the post here as not to duplicate information. I may have skimmed some so If I repeat something I apologize. But, you mention this quote that "has meaning" to him. And then he quickly and shortly shuts down and doesn't want to talk about it. There's not a whole lot to figure out here in my opininon. I see this as he was getting close and intimate and thus, escaped due to fear of intimacy. I have found that continuing on to ask, whats wrong, or even discuss it at all triggers more engulfment fears. Its my opinion, you should just let it go. And talk only when he offers. He most likely will find a time he wants to further discuss. But it will have to be when he comes around. Not when you want to. I totally understand you want to go further. This has been my problem with mine is just when we start to get really close and he's starting to tell me how he feels, he drops it and disappears for a while. At least in your case you got a 'busy now with computer" I don't get that, mine just drops off the face of the earth for days, which makes me naturally very upset. But he does usually come back around. The sad thing is though is he will never be able to form a true intimate connection without therapy. If he does, then he's cured. Because BPDer's will always have problems with intimacy. This is where my acceptance has come in and I have shifted my trials to form an intimate friendship with him, to helping him find a therapist and letting him go. Because I am the trigger.

LifeGoesOn: yes, I am certain he is being triggered by all kinds of intersecting things happening between us right now. On Monday he told me he might move away, and for the first time, I didn't instantly say "oh, I hope you don't, I'll be so sad!" but instead calmly discussed where he might move. Huge change for us. I wouldn't be surprised if he's wondering if I even care (despite oceans of evidence to the contrary).

And he has been tender about that I was slow to read a book he recommended (though I had read it when I last saw him, we discussed it, and he seemed delighted with what I had to say about it). But he was clearly poised to think I was not prioritizing this thing that was very important to him. Again, despite oceans of evidence to the contrary.

I continue to be important to him, and yes, that is scary, and he can't decide if he can trust it or if I only like him because I'm naive (big recent topic as discussed above) ... . no question, I trigger him. But. I don't want to give up for that reason because that would mean he will never have any sustained relationships of importance. Instead, I want to understand and handle it well.

I did end up asking if everything is OK -- saying if he's just wanting not to talk for a while that's fine. We'll see how that goes. I don't usually take that approach but Waverider's point that it is so ostentatious that to ignore it completely seems like I don't care seems right to me. He just never acts quite like this -- always maintains some form of connection, usually through email. The fact that he has dropped that is not something he would expect to go unnoticed.

I know this is all really hard for him. One challenge is that whatever he says the problem is, even if he says there is one, probably isn't what is really going on, not because he is lying, but because he doesn't know or understand himself exactly what prompted this bad feeling.

This degree of volatility in a non-sexual "friendship" helps me to realize how not viable a romance with him would have been -- helpful because I often second-guess my decision not to resume that with him when he offered it, yet had no insights into why he had so abruptly left me the first time. He is so, so tender and doubtful and ready to be betrayed.

Someone posted here a few weeks ago about how not liking a movie the pwBPD likes could be enough to represent a fundamental failure of the r/s or betrayal -- the failure to understand something important without the need for discussion and explanation. I think my failure to instantly understand the quote may be that way for my pwBPD. He thought I would understand, I didn't, and that made him feel bad. Sigh. He is living in a very hard place.

Hey P&C!

To me? I think at some point he has to line it up for himself that you have a life, 1) you will read his book at a time that is best for you! 2) maybe you will read the book NOT in his time frame, and 3) that doesn't mean he is not important to you! You read the book and you both had a discussion about it, great!

His being tender and doubtful is what he more than likely deals with daily. He has to learn for himself that you are sincere in being there for him, and he will! You are trustworthy and constant... . he will eventually get it, but it has to be in his own time.

It's like building a house, the foundation is laid, the contractor (he) has to make sure it's a firm foundation before continuing.

BTW, you are the concrete vendor,

CiF

Quote from: waverider on February 02, 2013, 06:45:33 AM

|iiii

And dont worry if you screw it up from time to time. It is not our job to always second guess accurately whats the right thing to do our say every time, just be attentive, and thick skinned enough, to at least care enough to give it our best shot. You will win some, you will loose some, but thats alright shrug it off and move on...

Absolutely right there. All relationships will have bumps and miscommunications, at a bare minimum. The important thing is to recover as quickly and gracefully as you can--instead of tripping on one (small) problem and then diving into a pit of problems spawned from it, and saying that things will never be the same again, etc. etc. etc.

Even if somebody around you tries to dive into the pit, you can still do your best to recover well.

Quote from: SummerT321 on February 02, 2013, 12:53:23 PM

I've not read it yet SB. Looks like a good book. My focus now is not in "loving" him. I'm trying to remain, detached. At least for some time. I have a few books to get through myself. But will look into that one possibly later down the road... . thank you.

Don't let the title fool you - it isn't about being in love with, but learning about the disorder and how to lovingly set boundaries, communicate, depersonalize - all from a place of compassion. It really makes the non focus on their issues.

For example, P&C's original question - the book would focus on how to now "save" a person, but lovingly be there. Are we helping out of guilt or concern - and what is help really? Seriously, I do not say this lightly, it is worth the read if you have any communication with a BPD.

I read it a couple years after my break up at the advice on members here. Personally, anyone can benefit from the tactical skills addressed in this book.

Quote from: Cardinals in Flight on February 02, 2013, 11:11:19 AM

It's like building a house, the foundation is laid, the contractor (he) has to make sure it's a firm foundation before continuing.

BTW, you are the concrete vendor,

CiF

Fabulous insights CIF. I can't make up my mind whether it's better to be a concrete vendor or a vending machine :)

But you're right. I can't try to perform at an even higher level than I am, imagining that that will solve the problems. If his doubts could be resolved by my performance, they would already be resolved.

Quote from: KateCat on February 02, 2013, 12:57:10 PM

Would it help to challenge this thought?

I don't want to give up . . . because that would mean he will never have any sustained relationships of importance.

I am pretty committed to that position -- I don't think that just because we trigger pwBPD we have to leave. Everyone would leave them then. In other words, I am not persuaded I need to leave him to help him, which is a view I've heard on these boards (more on Leaving or Undecided) sometimes. BUT. I should have been clear that this is not enough reason for me to stay. I stay because I enjoy him, he pushes me and makes me think in ways I really like, I respect much of the way he approaches life, I like spending time with him, and apart from his tendency to disappear, he is a thoughtful, responsive companion who has behaved well in all of this, within the limits of this disorder. I agree with what I think is your point KateCat -- my goal is not to help him or to save him. I don't do that any more.

Quote from: seeking balance on February 02, 2013, 01:12:44 PM

Quote from: SummerT321 on February 02, 2013, 12:53:23 PM

I read that (and I think every other book that there is on dealing with BPD!) and yes, it helped me decide I needed to stop trying to help him.

Patientandclear: "I am pretty committed to that position -- I don't think that just because we trigger pwBPD we have to leave"

I don't think that either. This is just what I have decided to do. No doubt you being a stable presence in his life is good for him. I remember when mine was being distant with me. I didn't know why he was being that way at the time. We would talk very little and sporadically. Looking back now, I could tell he was having a hard time. Saying things like "miss you" but not being able to see me. This would confuse me to no end. How do you miss me and not want to see me? I had no idea about BPD. He told me once during one of his distant moments, he said. "Just knowing your mine makes my week better" Looking back now I see what that means. Its good for them to know that they have someone, even if from a distance. But in my case now, I have to leave/detach/separate from it from him for me. Not detaching from him has left me in a painful longing state. My decision, not what I think should be everyone's choice. Thats the thing, what is good for one person is not good for everyone. It's not black and white. There's no blanket way to deal with this. We're all unique and live our lives according to us, not others.

Quote from: patientandclear on February 02, 2013, 10:53:41 AM

I continue to be important to him, and yes, that is scary, and he can't decide if he can trust it or if I only like him because I'm naive (big recent topic as discussed above) ... . no question, I trigger him. But. I don't want to give up for that reason because that would mean he will never have any sustained relationships of importance. Instead, I want to understand and handle it well.

Hi P&C,

Do you believe without a doubt that he will never have any sustained relationships of importance? If so, why?

Has he come right out and told you that he can't decide if he can trust your importance to him or if you only like him because you're naive?

I'm having a hard time understanding this

I wondered about that too, actually, what 123Phoebe just asked about. Despite the good intentions, hard work, varying degrees of radical acceptance and etc., are there layers to this of being in a rescuer role for you? You say not, but... . Are you really still staying in there to 'save' him from his fate? And: Your own? It sounds like playing house without an actual partner really being there. One who's like a child to you at times. There's still some pain, and much walking on eggshells here. So many times you second guess yourself and him. If you're in a rescuer role, and he needs that, he may pull away because he can't face it, right? He may resent you acting more like a mother than a (non)lover-friend, even if this is underneath the surface. Then, when you aren't fulfilling your role, as you're seeing in this recent situation, it just gets worse. For both of you.

Phoebe & Myself:

I swear on the book SB is recommending that I am not trying to rescue him! I am really clear on that. Really clear.

was responding, not very clearly, to the idea that we should disengaged from pwBPD for their own sake when we become close enough that we are "triggers" for them. I was saying that doesn't make sense to me--if everyone close to them left because they are triggers, pwBPD would have no close relationships, which doesn't seem like the best thing to do for them, contrary to some comments on the Leaving & Undecided boards. So I'm arguing against the idea that it is always best for them if we leave when we are close enough to trigger disordered feelings.

In the end though, like I wrote above, that's not why I'm staying. I'm staying because I like being with him & communicating with him. I was only rejecting the idea that it's kinder for pwBPD for us to disconnect from them.

I don't know what the future holds for my pwBPD. It depends on him. I see him trying to push himself. I also see him without a lot of insight about what happens in his relationships. I am not betting on him or against him--I will just see what is.

I can see clearly from many events that he cannot fully trust me. He has told me explicitly many times that he's not sure why I care for him. He recently explained the "naive" thing in terms of my having "generously" rationalized some behavior of his, & him deciding that rationale, though he wanted it to be true, wasn't, & really, he was just a jerk. The point of saying all this is that I have no doubt he struggles w/complex feelings of guilt, vulnerability, desire, resentment, fear, regarding me ... . but as long as he still wants to try & is willing to put in effort and try to push past the discomfort, I want to stick it out with him.

I am not trying to parent this man or to fix him or to be his partner unless he finally got to a place where that might be sustainable for him--and he is very far from that, he still struggles with abandonment/rejection fears, & smothering fears, being close to me when we're not having sex & don't discuss love or romantic partnership. I really am trying to be.a "true and enduring friend," as I offered him when we reconnected. That is hard & confusing sometimes, which is why I come on here & ask for advice. I don't want to harm myself or make things harder for him by communicating poorly, or not communicating when I should.

P&C wrote... . "I don't know what the future holds for my pwBPD. It depends on him. I see him trying to push himself. I also see him without a lot of insight about what happens in his relationships. I am not betting on him or against him--I will just see what is."

This is exactly why I'm still in an unship with my pwBPD. I see so much strength in her trying to regulate herself, knowing when she is needing a time-out before an incident, really trying to not inflict harm. I really respect that. It may not always be this way, I accept that. We may not be long term, I respect and accept that too. But when someone is reaching out to me, and telling me they love me, that they know they are defective and don't want to further hurt me, but wants me to stay in their lives? I'm going to give it my best shot, especially when I know that I helped to cause a few of the melt-downs before I realized my part in the original demise.

The upside is that we learn about ourselves in the meantime, maybe our next relationship will need the lessons we learned from the one we are in now, who knows, but any attempt at stretching and self-awareness is a good thing, at least in my mind it is.

I also fully realize that most of thinking is that you cannot be in a relationship with a pwBPD, I hear that loud and clear! I'll be right here to write about the failures of all my current thinking, if and when the situation arises. But still? in my mind, everyone deserves loves, even people with BPD, even if we end up having to love them from a distance.

CiF

Quote from: SummerT321 on February 02, 2013, 03:48:27 PM

Just wanted to comment about the ' idea that its kindernto leave' ... . thats not what i said. Thats your interpretation. I said. Im detaching because im the trigger and i cant handle the distance and other things that go along with a triggered pwBPD. I said im leaving for me. Not that it was kinder.

Yes, I saw I had misunderstood that from your more recent post. Sorry! Your situation reminds me very much of my own and I completely respect your choice to detach because it is too hard to deal with the longing. Also admire your effort to continue to care for and be with your pwBPD after the breakup.

The "it's kinder to leave" point is one I've read a lot though. I wish I'd read your initial post more accurately because now I've sent us all on a tangent, because it sounded like I'm on a rescue mission or something. I may not JADE with my pwBPD but I am sure doing it here!

I think the difficulty from the outside looking in is that you seem to want to prove to him that you love him, that you'll stay consistently, that you won't react to the push/pull. I think you've said this is what you hope to show him? You are trying to facilitate that 'sustainable relationship' with him but the reasons you can't do that may be ultimately beyond your control because he is disordered.

You are trying to control a situation which is uncontrollable. You seem to be twisting yourself into the most amazing shapes, melting around him, quietly and happily, but painfully in order to build a sustainable friendship. If you really could do that wouldn't you be fixing? Fixing the disorder?

I tried a little to think about staying in a deeper way for my ex but I knew I didn't have it in me any more. I needed to look after me. I was too codependent in our relationship to be able to detach enough for that. Once I realised that I had to step back. I may not want to abandon him and I will try my best not to make things worse but my needs and my children's come first now. I won't spend time filling in his emptiness or working out how to plug the gaps for him any longer because I have my own work to do on my own stuff. And do you know what? He's doing OK. Yes he's messing up people's lives and introducing women into his son's life and still wrangling with his ex wife and getting himself in fights but there ain't nothing I can do about it and there never really was.

Maybe the reason we are all wanting to keep this tangent up is that you seem to be setting your own needs aside to help this man. That you are doing it from a place of love and compassion is clear. That it is causing you pain also seems to be lurking in the depths.

Excerpt

I can see clearly from many events that he cannot fully trust me. He has told me explicitly many times that he's not sure why I care for him. He recently explained the "naive" thing in terms of my having "generously" rationalized some behavior of his, & him deciding that rationale, though he wanted it to be true, wasn't, & really, he was just a jerk. The point of saying all this is that I have no doubt he struggles w/complex feelings of guilt, vulnerability, desire, resentment, fear, regarding me ... . but as long as he still wants to try & is willing to put in effort and try to push past the discomfort, I want to stick it out with him.

I'm going to veer a little off course here, but we can also validate their jerkiness, ya know? He says it himself that he was just a jerk. We can validate the jerkiness by speaking our truth, where our feelings are coming from when jerky behavior rears its ugly head. We can stand up for ourselves without leaving the relationship. Sometimes speaking up, stepping away (timeout/space of our own) can be very healing for everyone involved.

I really respect you P&C and I know your heart is in the right place with your compassion for others. I wonder though where the compassion is for yourself at times? Where your truth lies... . What I mean by that is, not putting someone else ahead of yourself, put yourself first! Your feelings matter!

There's an awful lot of focus on what he's doing and what he's probably feeling and how sad he must be because of this and that... . What about you? How do you really feel about being dismissed abruptly - separately from speculating about his BPD rationale?

He might be sincerely interested in knowing also... . :light: Knowing what your boundaries are.

Hmm. Good new direction. OK, I hear you. But this is where we run right into my questions on prio threads about whether the abrupt distancing is abusive/bad/something to reject, or acceptable/just an inherent part of living w/undiagnosed untreated BPD?

I've gone back & forth on that & debated it here. With what has seemed like great guidance from many of you (Phoebe, Laelle, UFN, others) I've chosen to accept that he comes & goes. I've told him he can do so freely.but in my own mind, this is true b/c I am not his partner & we are not in a sexual r/s. I wouldn't feel that way if we were.

Radically accepting his need to take space sometimes has helped me be calm-ish about this situation & focus on other things. I would not radically accept "jerkiness," meaning, I would not tolerate nastiness or discourtesy or abuse. That's not his thing though. He distances. And I've decided that is the core thing I have to radically accept if I am "staying."

I think when he referred to his own bad behavior in the naivete conversation, he meant when he left me & didn't really know why. Yes, this was excruciating for me, but challenging him on that now is going to make him pointlessly feel like crap, full of guilt, right? He knows he hurt me. I've chosen to return & build a friendship anyway. Do you think it's a good idea to process that stiff w/him? It seems to me that is almost never something uBPD folks can do.

I don't consider the current distancing "jerky." He seems to do valuable work while he's away, and as I say, he seems t continue to push himself. I have no doubt that sticking with me in this friendship is very emotionally challenging for him. I guess I don't see the point in asking him to have capacities he doesn't, yet.

If he ever were to propose that we be together romantically though, I'd have to explain that that is a boundary for me. Having my partner/sexual companion just pull away is too hard for me.

For what it's worth, I write here about what is going on with him b/c that's the part I need help understanding. I feel like I understand why I'm doing what I'm doing. I care about him. He is trying. I'd rather not lose all that was good on the alter of BPD dysfunction. He is incredibly interesting and pushes and challenges me in ways few men I've known do. He is nice, thoughtful & kind ... . when he's around. Again, that's why he's "only" my friend.

Yes, this is hard & sometimes confusing. If anyone knows how to make it otherwise, I'm all ears, but we don't seem to have a recipe for that! Meanwhile, I really appreciate the chance to ask your take on things that happen w/us occasionally, because my abandonment fears make me misread thing ssometimes, and my impulse to explain needs to be reined in, & sometimes, I just need a thumbs up that what's happening, though unusual, s OK.

Thanks so much for all the good counsel & reflection.

Just want to say that I too am an observer who feels there's no need to "leave the relationship." Just maybe a need to de-personalize it--as has been suggested--and truly let go of the idea that it is a therapeutic relationship. (Not worry that he "struggles" or that he "is trying," or that he may fail at "sustained relationships." That's probably "his side of the street," in bpdfamily.com parlance, right?)

He sounds like an interesting and attractive guy. (And he must be, to have attracted you. And that 30-year-old as well. *))

What happened after his last relationship terminated? You stepped in! Other guys should be so lucky! And, as maria1 notes, after you're gone, another lady will likely find him fascinating, sensitive, and just in need of the right foundational tools to build a relationship.

I wonder if, for this particular guy, his pattern may contain too many temporary rewards for him really to be committed to changing the way he does business. He would have a lot of work to do to change.

I think you should just continue to keep it all as "light" as you possibly can. (I know you're trying.)

And what waverider just said, too . . .

I'm on therapist #3 since the demise of our romantic r/s brought me to my knees. I am seeing a woman who is a trauma specialist because it was clear to my other therapist that I was experiencing trauma reactions. She's been great, but I have to say, she has zero concern about my continued connection to this man -- I think she thinks it's great that he has a good friend like me ... . because of course he is also a trauma survivor and I think she finds it interesting that we are negotiating this terrain together in this way. (I am more skeptical of it than she is.)

I don't think I am confused about boundaries, I think mine are just in a different place than some people's would be. Mine are: I will not be sexually involved with him because it would be too hurtful to have him distance me like he does if we were doing that; and he can't be mean, abusive or non-reciprocal. He has to make an effort, too (when I say he is trying, I am not saying "and therefore I need to help him," I'm saying "I will put in effort if he will, and he is".

I should also say -- I absolutely do not view this as a therapeutic relationship. There was a little while in which I had that instinct and it went badly. Quite a while ago I stopped trying to help or fix him, because it's bad for both of us.

That said, he just responded to my email. He said he wouldn't just disappear if there was a problem, and wasn't sure why I thought his earlier email response was strange. But he also said while we were clearing the air, he was offended at the way I approached our talk the last time we saw each other, because he thought I ignored his point of view or tried to out-argue him or didn't hear him. Then he said "sometimes it feels like our talks are a continuous effort by you to save me." So ... . hmm. On the one hand, I'm glad he felt able to say that. On the other, it was hard to hear because I was not conscious of doing that, at all -- I thought I was totally respecting his viewpoint and taking it seriously and we were just having a serious but fun debate. So this provides a useful window going forward. As soon as I finish licking my wounds over being caught in "saving" mode by the very person I just assured you all I am not trying to save ... .

BPDFamily.com

Relationship Partner with BPD (Straight and LGBT+) => Romantic Relationship | Bettering a Relationship or Reversing a Breakup => Topic started by: patientandclear on January 31, 2013, 11:27:34 AM