BPDFamily.com

For a pwBPD to go through as many relationships as they do, they must know that they have a problem. Or do they?

I wonderd this, I guess its them thinking its everyone else's fault and not theirs that they have the string of failed relationships

People with BPD do not have the emotional maturity to understand all the intricate reaasons for a relationship failure.

There in lies the reason to the question: "Can you hold a disordered person responsible"? The answer from my perspective is No! Not good casting blame and disdain for our partners - our ex's have no idea how to climb of the emotional hole they are in.

Thankfully you do!

I have recently had this discussion with my partner on a few occasions as of late. When he would lay into me for all of the supposed wrong doings, and say broad based things like, 'all women are evil and the source of all of my problems' or 'all women are the same... lying, cheating sluts, etc.' I would remind him of the times that he says, 'well I am different. not everyone is the same', and during one of our last blow ups, where I admittedly lost my cool and was trying to hurt him even a tiny bit as bad as I was hurting, i informed him that the only thing that was the 'same' in all of his failed relationships was him. That he was incapable of maintaining a functioning relationship with anyone, that everyone eventually couldn't take his issues and walked away, and that i should be doing the same. He honestly refused to acknowledge that he had any wrong doing whatsoever, that 'all humans' were just liars, schemers, and don't treat him well and cannot be trusted. What is funny, is that now that he is in treatment, and his psychologist informed him that he suffered from BPD as well as intermittent explosive disorder, he acknowledged it, but still refuses to see that it's the illness that causes these fights, break ups, etc, and still insists that it's me, his mother, his father, his brother, etc.

Mine warned me very early on about his inability to sustain relationships & said that he "just knew" that he was going to "f%#k this up" (ie with me). I believe that it causes him a huge amount of pain but he is able to ignore this in relation to his dealings with friends & colleagues & when painting others black (or grey as sometimes happens). Despite everything that has happened he reminds me that he is a "good person" and that I will never "find a better man" (than him).  I think that when he says it he really wants to believe it and convinces himself that I might as well (heck it worked the first dozen times!)

I've asked myself that question, and maybe most of us did at some point. But after (unfortunately) two main uBPDso relationships, with g-d knows how many recycles in total, plus two very close working relationships with people of my own gender, one uBPD and the other uMPD, I can only report this: all four of them blamed external people or circumstances almost all the time. Three of them (the uMPD and 2 of the uBPDs) on rare occasions referred to the possibility that there might be something wrong with them, but the idea didn't continue for long. If it came up again it might be two years later and be formed in a different way. So I'd say none of them gave me evidence that they had a lasting idea that there was something wrong with them. That doesn't mean they didn't know it, in some way, under a layer of defenses, or maybe non-verbally. But if so it wasn't in a place I could interact with it. Perhaps an experienced T could, but anyway my guess is that it isn't available as a topic for discussion in a r/s. Bringing it up generally brought projection, as in: "YOU NEED THERAPY", directed at me. Might have been a good idea, now that I think of it. At least one of us might have been able to bail out early.   lol

PP

It is a mental illness in which delusional thinking is triggered by critical self-examination.  I know that mine knows something is wrong with her, but I think she also knows (subconsciously perhaps) that the process of acknowledging that results in her actually pretty much losing her mind.

In my limited experience with people with other mental illnesses, the situation seems to be quite different.  The landmines that set off psychotic episodes in other mental illnesses often seem scattered randomly and unpredictably:  One day he may think his wireless router is being controlled by the government to read his thoughts, and the next day he can look back at that and realize that he lost his mind.  What set off the psychotic episode?  I'm not able to say, but it seems reasonable to say that the association made with the wireless router is rather arbitrary.  He can later, in a moment of greater clarity, think about the wireless router without another psychotic episode being triggered.  He is mentally ill, but it is possible for him to see it within himself and seek help.

BPD is different.  The landmines that trigger delusional thinking make a perfect circle around the person's core self.  And they don't move.  In this sense, my uxBPDw can know that something is wrong with her, but the process of thinking about it will always disrupt her rational thinking, and prevent her from making real progress towards acknowledging or addressing the problem.  When in her more rational moments, she can see her insanity... .  but the act of seeing her insanity makes her return to it, and the context of "a more rational moment" ceases to apply.

It really is a Catch-22.

If you had a mental illness that caused you to go crazy every time you thought about being crazy, what would you do?  I think we'd all do the same thing:  we'd learn to try to think about it as little as possible.  To them, there is a bad, ugly, dangerous something that is associated with these thoughts - and there is no way through the landmines... .  one can only go around them, or flee from them, or hide from them.

And it seems like that task of hiding and fleeing becomes the overwhelming driving force in their lives.  And it is a task which takes all of their heart, soul, and energy to attempt to accomplish.  Things like love and romance and commitment and companionship are simple moving gears in this world, as are the people in their lives.  These people can either help them in their task (which makes them a momentary hero), or hurt them in this task (which makes them dangerous and awful).

Mine definitely knows something is wrong with her, but she can't face that or process that in a rational way.  So she screams that she's "strong" and "happy" and "okay" to anyone that will listen.  I'm sure she'd love to face it... .  but if she were able to, then she probably wouldn't have BPD... .  at least not in the same way that she does.

It really is a Catch-22.

Mine knows but she has never had a proper diagnosis from a psychiatrist.  She also knows I know which makes me alternate from being the only guy who understands and accepts her to being a threat.

What is boiled down to for me was that she is aware and refuses to try any type of therapy. She says it doesn't work etc. and prefers to be hopeless.

It seems like BPD does not get the attention it deserves in the media and there is not general awareness of this insideous disorder. I think that contributes to the problem ... .  I didn't know about BPD until I got involved with the BPD exgf and then only after going through a lot.

My exBF has so many defenses against not feeling normal, and one of them is no, he did not have many relationships. He had two before me, and now I'm the third (because he can't put me in any other position, we lived together for a while). This man is 42 years old. I was really in awe when I started to realize the mindf-k he had going on there. He just did not count all the other relationships with women he had had as being relationships. He had sex with them, yes, he might see one for a year, yes, but it "was not serious because nothing could come out of it". He had a relationship with a woman who already had a BF, so it was not relationship because of that. And if I started to check his talks about all these other relationships he cut me short (he has ADHD so his not a good lier, he can't remember what he said some other time). He tells everyone in his life he had only two relationships before me.

Of course he knew I was sad I had so many broken relationships behind me, some codependents have because we choose relationships that never can work and we are angry people. He used it against me many times, belittled me about it to make me feel myself like a "woman with ill reputation (which I don't have)"

This is just one example how his mind works to make sure he does not have to live with the reality of himself. I don't know if it gets better now he has adhd-medication and support for that, because I'm not there to see it. ADHD does not make one to be emotionally violent and abusive controlling manipulative tool.

Well, that depends on a number of things. My ex would constantly say "I'm not good at relationships"- which I thought was odd, since I probably dated more people back in high school than he has his whole life (he was pushing 50 btw).

So he's "not good at r/s" but yet had a whopping total of 3 r/s under his belt. He's "not good at r/s" but yet his exes had lists of faults a mile long, and he was blameless and a victim. He's "not good at r/s" but that's because he would do stupida$$ $hit like lie, cheat, dump everyone at the drop of a hat and commit adultery.  I dunno, when you do stuff like that in a r/s, there are bound to be a few hiccups, right?

On the other hand, as I desperately told him repeatedly (before I knew he really *did* have a problem)... .  don't we all have a string of failed r/s behind us? What defines a "failed r/s"?  Dating someone for a few months? A year? 5 years?  Is it a "failed r/s" if you drift apart after 6 months, or find out that it just isn't going to work?  Unless you fell in love and married your first and only high school sweetheart, don't most of us have a history? 

But yes, my ex does know he "has a problem" which he sometimes even admits to. His answer, I believe, is basically to remain single and hook up occasionally with his emotionally unavailable, narcissistic best friend. Not the kind of life I would want... .  but I guess it works for them.

I am all too familiar with this as well. During our last 'episode', which has brought on day 3 of my silence/punishment today, I said to him, 'I know you don't mean that. You aren't a cruel, sadistic person, it's the illness and issues speaking', which was met with, 'I don't have anything wrong with me. YOU are a typical, psychotic female who is in desperate need of therapy yourself.' Despite the fact that he IS under the care of a psychologist, and has claimed that he cannot help his own actions, when he gets into his 'blacking me out' mode, he doesn't even consider that just maybe, it's the illness causing it, he is CONVINCED I, or other people, are the enemy.

It really is quite shocking at just how specific the symptoms of this illness are. pretty much every single thread I have viewed on this board, I could have written myself. In my case, I am the one my BPDbf has claimed he 'isn't in a relationship with'. Despite the fact that he told his therapist that I was his girlfriend, we have been "exclusive" for the past two years, he says he loves me (when he isn't blacking me out), we have spent every night together for pretty much the past few months, and he is utterly jealous, possessive, and hawks every single thing I do and person i speak with, he still maintains to his family and others that he 'will never have a girlfriend again because nobody can be trusted'... .  HELLO! What am I, then? we agreed we wouldn't put a 'label' on our situation, yes, and honestly, that was probably only for his tendency to claim at will, that he 'doesn't have a girlfriend and never wanted anyone around in the first place', when it suits him, or he is lying to other women, or bs'ing with certain lowlife friends of his, commiserating, if you will. I said to him the other night, 'why do you do this? it's like wearing pants, and then saying that you will never wear pants again in your entire life, while you have them on.' He didn't have a good answer for that one, and perhaps that was one of the 'hard' questions that probably led to the rage/explosion in the first place. He realized he was closer than he thought, so he felt the need to 'black me out' that night.

just_me_500, I think this is a great plain-language summary of things that a lot of people have been trying to express from various angles about BPD. I think it would take sophisticated MRI work and a well-designed study to 'prove' that it's true, but I'd put my own money down that the result would substantiate it.

And maybe another component is the lack of ability to add to a stable internal model of themselves during dysregulation, so that they start over again after dysregulation. What I mean is, if dysregulation is part of the fight-or-flight hormonal reaction, as a we-need-everything-right-now-to-fight-or-run-with, then BPD dysregulation might cut out the long-term thinking facility and interfere with the ability to record internally, in long-term memory, any objective thoughts about the self.

Combined with the above, almost no thoughts about self problems would survive: if they started they'd get cut off by dysregulation, and even the memory of the starting the thought would get wiped out by the emotional reaction in dysregulation.

I've had a personal experience that taught me about this. In short: I was caring for a child and the child had an accident. Emotional emergency for me. Afterwards: I couldn't remember what I'd done with my pack that had my wallet in it. Wallet has all credit cards, everything. I've never in my life lost track of it like that. Had no memory at all of the pack or the wallet AT ALL. I retraced my steps and found where I had safely tucked it all away, BEFORE THE ACCIDENT HAPPENED. Two minutes later, accident. Memory gone forever of where I put the pack and wallet. I didn't even remember putting it there after I found it. The accident, two minutes later, had erased the memory.

So, if you're BPD, you think about yourself as having a problem, and then you dysregulate (as you described). After calm down: start over. Don't really remember what happened to me. [Look up at SO]. Who are you? Maybe it was YOUR fault!    lol

PP

In my r/s hard questions always ended up in rage and he threatening me with break up. I saw it as a punishment. I made him see there is something wrong in his picture of things (and he could not just explain it away, it was so obvious) = I have caused it. And, of course, I could be blaimed of being the one who did everything he did, and saying everything he had said. It does not make any sense, and I have no idea how his mind works. But, if he keeps this, he will have dementia in age 55. No ones brains can take that much twisting reality. It has been studied that pathological liers and such damage their brains in the long run.

I think it depends on the "level" as in "high functioning" vs "low functioning" and other things. Mine seems to know something is wrong. I've had hints and things from words that he has said to me, but clearly are the words of someone who knew things about himself and his relationships that I didn't but was soon to find out. I've also had positive responses if I've brought it up to him at times. We've discussed things, treatment options and other things. However, this is usually followed within hours or the next day a complete switch from a positive thinking view to splitting and projection. I think some know something, but at the same time just can't face it and it triggers them, yes, the defenses kick in and they bury it.

I was ignorant of BPD while in r/s with ex. She carped continually about her PTSD, ADD/ADHD, splitting, slight MPD but never mentioned BPD - except in labeling others (one was her daughter).

She was well read on psychology and had studied to be a psych nurse (she never told me about that).

I am SURE she knew. Wish she had have shared that with me so as I had of known what I was getting myself into.

I think my BPD wife also knows.   Looking back, I think she has known long before she and I met.    I remember when we were first together years ago her sister called her crazy, so she went crazy!  She told me repeatedly she was not crazy.   Crazy?  At that time I never even entertained the thought of her having any mental illness.

Now, she has said she wants a divorce.  She is in therapy and has mentioned that she needs to not continue certain behaviors.  She has also accused me of being BPD - classic projection as I understand it.  She said that she "walked on eggshells" around me the other day.   Obviously, she had a conversation with her therapist.   I am not sure whether she convinced the therapist that I am the BPD one or whether it was suggested by the therapist that she may have BPD.  The Therapist must have put the pieces together... .  severely NPD mother, sexual abuse at a young age, first husband put on a plane 6 months pregnant to get rid of her, previous boy friend disconnected the power and shut the heat off in january (in the northern US) when she had two small kids to get her out.

She was married to her first husband about a year and a half before he booted her, she lived with the boyfriend for about a year and a half before he forced her out.   We have been together 6 years, married 2 and a half years... .  she split me all black about a year ago - 18 months into our relationship.     Curious.

So yes... .  I think she knows, and I also think her therapist does also.   

We have been apart 16 days.   We go a couple days without text messages, then she sends me a string of them to tell me about some day-to-day thing.  I respond of course.   She tells me that she just wants me to know this or that even though its not my problem anymore.

Well, why would she tell me the day to day stuff?  I suspect it is to re-engage me - to suck me back in.

Thanks for this response, PrettyPlease.  There is definitely a lot of conjecture in my assessment; I realized after posting it that I probably should have prefaced it with a "From what I can tell from my experience... " or something along those lines to soften the presentation of any sort of certainty.

Still, though, the idea makes a lot of sense to me, and the concept of "triggers of delusion" surrounding one's most core self really does pretty much manage to sum up everything I've ever come to understand/experience of this disorder.  It also makes sense to me in regards to the possible origins of the condition:  It is reasonable that in development a human being's system could learn to do anything to protect its center, even if it means altering the perception of reality.

There is some discussion on these boards on whether early perceived traumas are causative or symptomatic of this disorder, but if one is to accept them as at least partially causative, then I picture my uxBPDw as a little tiny girl being molested by rows of insane men... .  and I picture her mother screaming at her that everything's fine, she's lucky, and that she deserves whatever she gets.  In the midst of that, it seems reasonable that something would *click* and her system would shift to utter self-protection... .  with delusion being one of the essential tools of survival.  When the core comes under any sort of perceived attack, memories and experiences and feelings and realities may all be re-arranged as necessary until she knows again that she is strong and okay and okay and okay.

And okay.

It seems reminiscent of a robot (like in a science-fiction movie); one that has an internal error somewhere that causes a force-feedback loop due to a certain trigger.  You can't make the robot diagnose the problem, because the examination of the problem brings up the trigger, which then triggers the problem.  You can't make the robot remember the problem, because remembering the problem brings up the trigger, which then triggers the problem.  The force-feedback loop is overcome only by avoidance.

I don't really know if my interpretation of this is true, but the simple summation that I wrote here a couple days ago has actually helped me these past couple of days.  In this context, her refusal to really see herself no longer seems to me like a sign of weakness.  I think she has learned (subconsciously) from experience that self-examination creates a bizarre and blurry mess... .  and every time she tries to do it, something goes horribly wrong:  The next thing she knows she is getting force-fed charcoal in an emergency room (due to overdose), or she is in a pile of confused tears after acting in a way that reminds of her crazy mother, or she is having a vicious out-of-character affair, or she is destroying her own family that she's always loved more than anything.

She almost looks back on it, and almost sees it... .  but the process of seeing it begins to start the cycle again... .  and so then she desperately and frantically stops seeing it.  She stops seeing it, and she forgets she ever saw it, and she vows (somewhere inside herself) to never see it again.

Which, of course, must be utterly exhausting.

I think to your point, I feel like the memory of starting the thought is completely entangled with the thought itself.  It needs to be wiped out by any means necessary.  If the thoughts are in writing (and therefore not possibly truly forgotten), then they are necessarily dismissed as being moments of insanity (e.g. "the only times I was ever crazy were those times that I thought I was crazy... .  other than that, I'm perfectly fine."

As your example demonstrates, the ability of one's mind to function differently according to emotional need is something I think we've all experienced... .  for them, it seems, that sense of desperate emotional need is sitting in them all the time.  No big accident needed.

Looking at it that way does make my emotions shift back a little bit from anger towards sympathy.  For the moment at least.

When you get to these moments, keep pushing for the origin of this anger. This proves the anger only resurfaced, and was triggered by this r/s. This could be said for all the other emotions, you are experiencing... .  I wish you well, PEACE

It's a mental illness.  Many of the homeless are pwBPD.  They may know that they are different but simply lack the capacity to know why they are different or how their actions cause suffering.  The only difference between a homeless baglady and my is that my ex wBPD has better survival skills to move through our world as an imposter.

But the fact is that she is stuck at the emotional maturity level of a terrified three year old.  She has never learned to take responsibility, to apologize, to feel compassion or to sacrifice.  It's not that she won't engage in such behaviors, it's that she CAN'T.   She's never ever reached that phase of development.  And it's not just that she's stuck at being a toddler.  She is a terrified and abused toddler, living in her very real nightmares, and with specifically an attachment disorder.  

I'd have more luck asking a person with Down's syndrome to explain what's wrong with them.  They may know that they are different in someways, but for them to be self-aware and understand why they are different is beyond them.  

I was collecting some items that BPDbf left here and came across a book by Daniel G Amen, MD.  Change Your Brain Change Your Life   "The Breakthrough Program for Conquering Anxiety, Depression, Obsessiveness, Anger, and Impulsiveness"    Hmmmmmm 

So my guess is he knows, but if this book had that nasty acronym anywhere on the cover I can almost guarantee he would not have bought it. 

 

I know my ex had moments of clarity and he would become visibly agitated if the conversation drifted towards psychology or any topic he felt would bring the conversation closer towards any questions he wanted desperately to avoid.  I know his FOO called him horrible names to his face and made fun of his "anger" but at the time, I didn't have any idea why.  It now seems horribly cruel.

I think myexpwBPD knew something was wrong with him but his intense shame forced him to avoid it; admitting he was ill was the equivalent of emotional suicide.  As long as he could avoid the "knowledge" of his illness he could, in essence, avoid his illness. 

Denial is a powerful defense mechanism that keeps them from failing off the edge of insanity.   

tailspin

My stbxBPDw blames her behavior on PTSD, because it shifts all the blame to the hurtful actions of others.

When I finally told her I suspected she had BPD, she raged, cried, accused me of abuse and character assassination... .  and it continues.

Wondering if anyone had the opposite happen?

I was involved with a man who had a lot of BPD traits.  Ultimately I think he was bipolar, and whether that caused BPD like behavior or he actually qualified for that disorder as well I'll never know.

He was constantly on about how "not well" he was.   Psychiatrist, therapist, meds, etc.  It was a fact, but he also used it as an excuse and manipulation tool.  He would apologize after rages with the qualifier of "I'm not well."   The entire relationship was based explicitly on  "I have to have you in my life and you have to do whatever I want because I am Sick and those are my Needs as a Sick Person".   

It wasn't a front though-he KNEW he was deeply messed up.  And I think he was genuinely working on it, in some ways.

He also never told me the nature of his diagnosis (he MUST have had at least one), which in retrospect may have been intentional... .  a lot of advice for people in a rs with someone with BPD or Bipolar is to leave.   

Mine knew there was something wrong with her, and described herself as "crazy", "psycho", and "complex". She first heard about BPD when her daughter's therapist said her mother might have it because she pushes away loved ones. She took the online test for BPD and got six of the nine responses as positive. So she got an affirmative diagnosis that way. I also took the test as her, based on what she had told me about her life and behavior, and got the same six positives.

Then she bought me a book on loving someone with BPD. She asked me if I was in this for the long haul, and I said I was.

I found her a therapist by her that specializes in BPD. She told me she called, but the woman did not take her insurance, and the cost for a years treatment was in the thousands of dollars, so she blew it off and saw a generic therapist a few times until she decided "I am what I am, and we are all products of our environment", and stopped seeing the therapist after about three visits because of the co-payments and because "she couldn't help me anymore"

Now, to this day, if we argue and I see BPD like behavior and point it out, she denies she has BPD! She says our issues are real, and a few of them are. But it's not that the issues we have are not real, it's her reaction to them!

So, I would say, at least in the case of my ex, that she knows she has but is in some sort of denial about it most of the time.

Mine almost certainly knew something was wrong with her - but I doubt very much if she can label it.

Very early on she told me she felt she was abnormal for being gay, and she regularly displayed signs of shame during sex (covering her face with a pilow). When she relaxed and dropped her outgoing and fun-loving facade she would cry constantly and in her words, was "always meant to be unhappy and alone". I regularly heard that when we argued, along with, "I'm just not good at relationships!"

Last Valentine's Day, I had a homemade card saying she was so happy that she'd finally found the one for her... .  3 months later I drove her crazy.

She dumped me just before we moved in together and two days after showing me places for us to rent. The last time I saw her, I noticed an order from Amazon, a book called "A man who mistook his wife for a hat". This isn't a BPD book, but a book on neurological disorders, on 'broken minds'. I always wonder if that was her way of trying to find out what it was that was wrong with her?

That's funny in many ways. My ex had bisexual tendencies. I didn't see her act on these, but she told me she did once when we first got together. She was drinking with two friends, and one of these women had a friend along that my ex didn't know. When the night was ending they all went back to one woman's condo to sleep. My ex seduced the woman who she had just met. The poor woman was telling her "I am not gay, I am not gay", but basically went along with it. She was a very traditional, Catholic woman. Other than that, it was mostly we talked about what we would do. She was very insistent that if we looked for a threesome, we did it on a Caribbean island or far from home. One of the last things she told me was that she was going to go to a gay bar and look for a possible partner, someone for us. I told her I thought this was a bad idea, both because my ex had a drinking problem, and I also did not believe she would find the feminine type she likes in a gay bar. In retrospect, maybe I should have just told her to go for it, as she was very excited by the idea, and said she was doing it for us. I really just did not want her sleeping around. She also had an affair with a woman she worked with. It was short lived, and it ended when the woman tried to introduce her boyfriend/drug dealer into the mix. She later described this gay lover as an untrustworthy crackhead, LOL.

We also broke right before i was to move to her area. Literally weeks before. I think the fear of failure really caused her to end our relationship. I think she knew there was no way she could be rational, calm, loving, supportive. She had failed already at these things long distance, and I think she knew she would fail again. Things she said, such as "I will love you forever, but it would never work, too much of a power struggle", led me to believe that she prefers the memories of the good times we had together, and kind of memorializes them, and prefers that to a real day to day relationship.

Yup. Mine did the same, even though it was she was was self diagnosed. It's like when she didn't want the therapy, she claimed she never had it anymore and it was me with the problem, and I had made all this up. That's so funny, because until she told me she failed the assessment test, I had never even heard of BPD.

Yep, mine knew something was wrong with her, especially in her clearer, more lucid moments.  I used to accuse her of being incapable of holding up her half of a relationship.  One day, in a very calm voice, out of nowhere, she acquiesced and said she was afraid I was right.  We weren't fighting or even upset.  It was a good engagement. 

As things became rockier for us, I think she ran away from that realization.  She had to in order to paint me all black, and to get through the end of our relationship.  But she knows something's wrong with her ability to do relationships, and she knows I know.  It's one of the things that helped her end things... .  the shame of me knowing was too much for her.

I bought a bunch of books about recovering from childhood sexual abuse and abusive childhoods in general. 

I read one paragraph aloud to uBPD ex that summed up so much of my experience with her.  It said your partner may be sneaky, hide things from you, be evasive, and so on.  Honestly, it's what troubled me most about her.  Anyway, she took the book out of my hand and threw it across the room and said it sounded like I was blaming her. 

So, I never opened up one of the books again, even though she had previously agreed that we would work thru this together.

Shortly thereafter her sneakiness became more pronounced and her presence rare.

Exactly!  My exbfwBPD had a few moments (in 18 months) of clarity when he would say something to the effect of "I'm so sorry the man you love is screwed up in the head."  But it was as if this very admission would tip him back into crazy land - diametrically, give me hope of getting through to him.  And it destroyed me.

EXACTLY - once he saw the "My gosh, he's crazy" look of realization on my face, my days were numbered.

It's even more interesting when they're having an emotional meltdown (partially alcohol induced) and when you're trying to manage the situation they snap out of it and say "I need to stop doing this."  These are the lucid moments that I've seen mentioned before.  The reality is they know but cannot stop it so there's no point in trying to talk them out of it.  It's something they must do for themselves on their own through trial and error and the desire to be happy and fulfilled.

And they know their NON-pushover s/o with any values will see through their episodes and make them face the reality.  They run from the people they can't control because they're afraid of facing their deep childhood issues and since they fear being abandoned and alone, they find a new target for their insanity

Interesting point, especially your last two sentences. I had never really considered the shame aspect of BPD, but my ex has a lot of shame. She was always wondering what people thought of her, even people she hardly knew, acquaintances from years ago. And in the end, she knew that I knew that she has BPD, and it is a pretty classic case.

She even threatened to tell people that I was not a man that loved my kids and family, because I had an affair with her. She felt I was two faced. She did not seem to realize, or care, that I was pretty much minding my own business when she initiated the affair. And she seemed not to realize that a person can love their children and even their spouse, and yet find themselves in an affair.

She further failed to realize that I am middle aged, retired, and my kid are grown. I stopped caring years ago what "people" thought about me. I care what my mother thinks, my wife, and my kids. I could care less what the rest of the world thinks. As far as I see, half of them are doing the same thing, and the other half are divorced.

My exBPDgf told me fairly recently that she knew she was unstable, but that her therapist had told her that was all and most the problems were due to me, and that she had told her to read "Women who love too much"... .  to me it should have been "Women who hate too much", as she has spent 3 times as much time being a hater... .  but I digress.

I don't believe they are integrated in their personality, and that allows them to survive while being a massive tangle of contradictions. Would say they are world class rationalizers as well. When they flip they see you as bad, so bad it justifies whatever they feel like they want to do to you. They notice they have issues, but stay in denial and cling to it.

My exBPDgf today... wanted an apology from me... I had allowed LC for a while, she wanted to talk to me on gmail chat, I was out of town visiting my mom and helping her out... so I had chat on, then my mom wanted help loading her truck... .  I come back and she had tried chatting and I wasn't there... so she left a nasty note on chat... .  I ignored her.

Then next day she sends a nasty email, followed by a text saying that I was a liar and she knows that I talk to people other than her on gmail chat. (I don't... .  I use other means) So she said I was blocked... next day... text with please get on chat. I get on and she wanted an apology from me for what I was doing (which was nothing)... I asked why I would need to apologize when she was one that called me a liar then was juvenile and blocked me on the chat... and I put those messages on the emails she had sent with proof she did it... .  and she said that for a while I was lucid but was clearly in denial and that I needed to quit contacting her, she didn't need my harrassment.

So... I believe she knows she has something wrong... has admitted to being unstable... .  and she seemed to like it when I knew what was wrong with her and was trying to adjust to it... .  but when that same knowing points out any tiny issue with her... .  the denial/painting black/projection kicks in and she says I am not lucid and harassing her (though she started all the contact.)

Does it matter if they know... .  they are making it real obvious to us they have something wrong.

Mine covered up my face during sex sometimes or would look at something else, to which I'd stop.

That book is about a guy who had this disorder in which faces cannot be recognized.  It's more of a visual processing issue than a personality disorder type thing.

She also expressed bisexual interest.  I just shrugged.  I think every female says that nowadays. 

She said she probably had ptsd.

She said she didn't get out of bed for a month when she was younger due to depression.

She said she was worried she had aids, but when I offered to pay for the test she declined.  The same with therapy.  I said I'd pay.  she said she couldn't accept that.  Yet she could accept money for rent, electric bill, car payment... .  

sounds harsh, but unfortunately it is all true. Except for some moments of lucidity, mine would never admit that she left a trail of men with destroyed relationships in her past. She actually prided herself on being "complex", LOL

This is my ex too, word for word. Except that it's not chat, it's Facebook or cell.

At times, she has told me that she's "crazy", and "psycho" and has BPD. Other times she denies having BPD, and says she's "complex", and that I am bipolar and harassing her.

It matters not that I am the same guy, day in and day out, and extremely easy going. I admit that I have argued with her, and I have often defended my self, and at times I have gotten tired of her nasty accusations and her general demeanor which seems to be to want to fight. And I admit that at times I have said some nasty things to her and pushed her away. But I have never had this type of relationship with anyone else. I argued less with my wife in 25 years than I did with my ex sometimes in two months!

I'm thinking that if I'm like this with only my ex, because she pushes my buttons, then I am not bipolar, I am just a pissed off man who eventually lashes back. Am I right?

And that Charred is the key.  It doesn't matter.  We know there's something wrong.

They are disordered and never fully developed emotionally.  Again it's like asking a person with down's syndrome if they know why they are different. Or ever asking a blind or deaf person.  They may understand that they are different or limited, but how can they know how they are limited if they have never known any other way of life.

And to wonder how much they understand only prolongs the pain for me.  It allows me to fantasize that my ex might get better come to a realization and return to me as an adult.  Or it allows me to play the victim to someone who deliberately  harmed me with the malice intent of being destructive.  Both of which I know are not true.  My ex sincerely wants to be good and that's why I believed my ex.

And the question maybe shouldn't be: They MUST Know That They Have Something Wrong With Them, but rather... .  

WE MUST KNOW THAT THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH US!



Why else would we end up attached to and lost in a person who does not have many, or maybe none, of the capacities that an even somewhat mature adult would have.  My ex doesn't have any capacity for responsibility, empathy, altruism, or remorse.  Why would I expect her to understand what exactly is wrong.  Yes they know they are different, but they really probably don't know how.  And those that do start to figure out who they are end up killing themselves more times than not.  

So it's probably better they don't understand. Because I want my ex to survive.


And that leads us back to looking at ourselves.  If you're anything lik me, your friends have been saying to themselves for a long time... .  he/she must know that the relationship is toxic, and there's something wrong, and he/she must know that he/she needs to get out ASAP.  And for me it's gotten to the point where they don't enable my self pity anymore and have pure compassion fatigue because I burdened them with the insanity for so long.  Yet, I couldn't see exactly what was wrong with ME!

So if we can't even identify that there is something wrong with us, how can we even hope that our exes can identify with their shortcomings, when the use of their survival responses are what kept them sane as children and it's the only things that they know.

Again, it's good to learn about the disorder to understand why we because lost and how we can move forward.  But to try and understand and place rationality into a mind that is disordered to the extent of someone with BPD is an exercise that keeps me in my pain.  The disorder always wins, and to try and make sense of the disordered mind only further enmeshes me in the disorder.  I must by now know that fact.  But I still miss my ex and long for her even though I know I'd never take her back.  The disorder is cunning, baffling and insidious.

So I must be vigilant in my personal level of self honesty.  I must take responsibility.  I must focus on myself. And I must accept the truth including:  I permitted abuse, but I was never a victim, I was a volunteer.

And, I was the one who was supposed to be the caretaker and without the disorder.  But in the end, I don't know if I made a difference at all, or even very possibly made things worse by causing my ex to suppress even more shame and terror.  So all I can do is look at my shortcomings and my FOO issues.  

In support

My  ex uBPD bf told me (afte the honeymoon ended) that his "moods" - aka rages - were down to his badly managed Type 1 diabetes - which I beleived at first.

He would never consider there was anything wrong with him - a red-flag I missed early on was his stories of how badly his 2 ex wives and lt red-flag gf treated him. He was in constant text battles with his 2nd ex - over their kids - and he always accused her of being a "psycho" and telling her she needed treatment - and refused my advice on not getting into battles for the kids sake.

We ended after he woke me up to rage at me at 2.30am - after a good holiday and a great night out with friends of mine. I asked him to leave - and the next day - he texted the man of the couple we had been out with - saying goodbye to him as he had "really f***ed it up with L*****". This was an admission of responsibility - but it passed - and he blamed me for not loving him enough, not letting him move in with me, being frigid etc etc etc. I will no doublt now be the latest "horrible woman who did him wrong" to anyone who will listen. I wonder if his long termcolleagues (has no real friends) ever realise who is the common denominator in all this?

I think my soon to be exuBPDw had moments of clarity.  She also blames alot on PTSD, but at times she would say "what type of person would do this to her family" or, "I know I should do this or that but I can't - I don't know how to describe it but I can't".  But latter if I point out any of her issues or comments she turns it on me how I'm Bi-polar, controlling, making up lies... .  so she has her moments she knows it's her... .  but give it a minute or two and it will once again become it YOU!   I think if she ever looked at herself it would kill her. 

Mine also suggested it was birth control causing her changing moods.  Yet, she was on the same birth control the entire time we were together, from idealization to devaluation.

Do they know if something is wrong with them?

Check ...

www.psychforums.com/borderline-personality/topic61319.html

And see for yourself, that is also quite good detachment for us NON BPDers.

That's interesting, criticism causes a psychotic melt down of sorts.  That's what we trigger.  :light:  Yeah, I'd avoid me too, if that were the case with me.

That's a fascinating thread Harmkrakow.  They kind of bluntly put it out there and the lack of empathy shines through,  like watching Silence of the Lambs.  It makes me a bit sick to read through that.  To know that some people get some sort of thrill out of hurting another person because of early abuse, love and pain get all mixed up.  Flipping that around, imagining a thread on that board, do they know something is wrong with them?  And a poster saying, I abused my partner today and turned them into a sobbing wreck, why do they put up with that?  And it goes back to the same history of early abuse mixed with love in my own history.  Why can't people treat children right?  Makes me angry.  The smallest, most defenseless dealing with abuse.  I don't like it, I wish I could change the world in that regard.  :'(

This topic makes me so sad, because yes my xBPDh knew there was something terribly wrong with him. Years before the diagnosis he would say to me, "but you don't understand, I can't see the forest but for the trees". He also told me that it was hard for him to look in a mirror and see his face. What loathing to not want to see yourself. I never understood.  Had no idea what he was dealing with. It was only after we separated and he was diagnosed that I was able to begin to comprehend what BPD was, and the turmoil it inflicted on our family. I hate this disease.

My friend once admitted that they knew they had a problem and that they were getting professional help, etc, which I was very proud of at the time - proud that they were taking care of themselves and at the least, being self-aware.

Thing is... .  later on, when they started to really fly off the handles, they refused to admit that they still had this problem and when asked why they stopped seeing their healthcare professional, they said that they didn't need it anymore.

So I think that at times, when the BPD isn't the one in control over them, they CAN admit to needing help (in fact, that's probably why they sometimes swing to such extremes in emotions - guilt, anger, etc, at the things they did), but when the BPD is the one in control, they can't or WON'T.

In my experience, it's WON'T because during those times, the LAST thing they want to admit is that THEY have a problem and that THEY are flying off the handles, and that THEY are being unreasonable or being unsafe, etc.

My ex/friend has flashes of insight which then disappear. He once wrote me a long message (during his pushing me away phase) where he said 'I'm not normal' and that nobody knows him because he couldn't let them, they wouldn't like what they saw, and so on... .  

He also can acknowledge his lack of empathy sometimes. He's told me that others have said they think he is overly harsh and cruel at times, including his parents - and this seems to make him very sad as he seems not to quite understand what's going on with him, why, and how he can stop. I feel for him at these moments. Then the door of insight slams shut again and he gets defensive, angry, etc.

CB

Very true, same here

One time I caught the ex deleting text message dialogue between her and her ex.  I was actually going to surprise her.  She was in her car.  I saw her doing it thru the window.  I tapped on the glass and she quickly put the phone away.  I asked her about it.  She said she deleted it to protect my feelings.

I told her I thought we had agreed that relationship with the ex was over and she would stop texting him.  She drove off even though we were meeting to go somewhere together.  I called her and she screamed at me on the phone, so loud my ear drum felt like it ruptured.  Like it was ringing for about 5 minutes afterward.

I found her at her place having a meltdown in her car.  I got in the car to talk with her and she was screaming, ranting, yelling.

Anyway, to get to the point she said "I feel mutilated inside" and indicated that she felt like that a lot.  Maybe it was a distraction (gaslighting of sorts) from the original conflict over her texting her ex.  Not sure.  But she seemed to say it in such a way that it is a pervasive, often-occurring feeling for her.

Mine said a few times that she felt "like an empty shell". This was before we knew about BPD. Now I understand, from these boards and reading, a little more about what she meant. She also admitted that she was a cutter when she was young, though I never saw any scars. She also said at various times that she was a "psycho", and "crazy".

Now it all my fault. She says she does not have BPD, and that she is just "complex", LOL.

I also found her carrying on conversations online with men that we had agreed she would not talk to because of, in one case, a clear emotional attachment, and in the second case, a guy with a bad marriage who wanted to see her for drinks whenever he was in her area. Catching her in these two incidents really hit at her credibility in two areas that I felt she was strong in-fidelity and honesty.

She apologized for the incidents. Said she would take the men off her Facebook account once again, and then the next day tried to turn the tables and suggest I did something similar. She just couldn't fess up, apologize, and let it pass. She had to try and twist it into being about me.